#2220 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

Speaker 0 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Speaker 1 The Joe Rogan experience.

Speaker 2 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

Speaker 2 Boy, I wish there was something to talk about.

Speaker 2 These guys are coming here. I'm like, I love these guys so much.
Too bad. It's just, there's nothing going on.

Speaker 3 Well, I heard you might have needed to cancel on us to get Kamala Harris on.

Speaker 2 I was not going to do that.

Speaker 2 I would have had to, I knew you guys flew from England, and I wasn't going to cancel on you because she had an opportunity to come.

Speaker 2 You could look at this and you'd say, oh, you're being a diva. But she had an opportunity to come here when she was in Texas, and I literally gave them an open invitation.
I said, anytime.

Speaker 2 I said, if she's done at 10 o'clock, we'll come back here at 10 o'clock.

Speaker 2 I'll do it at 9 in the morning. I'll do it at 10 p.m.
I'll do it at midnight. She's up.
She wants to, you know, drink a Red Bull, fucking party on.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but I think this idea that you're being a diva is silly because you're asking her, you're offering her the opportunity to do exactly what the other candidate did, right?

Speaker 2 Well, she actually reached out when she found out that he was coming on. So their camp reached out to me.
So I said, great, I would love to talk to her. But it was very difficult to tie it down.

Speaker 2 And a lot of they wanted to travel. And see, the thing is, like, you can't, if I go somewhere, then there's going to be other people in the room.

Speaker 2 And they want to control a lot of things, I'm sure. According to the Brett Breyer interview on Fox, like people were waving them off.
That's a distraction.

Speaker 2 People in the room, like my whole goal with her and with him is just talk, just have a conversation like a human being.

Speaker 2 You find out things about people. You get a sense of them, at least, a real sense.
That was it. I don't give a fuck what we talk about.
I really don't.

Speaker 2 I just want to talk to you. Who the fuck are you?

Speaker 3 Do you think they think that you're on his side and they're more wary of you?

Speaker 2 I don't know. I mean, there's

Speaker 2 just because of my appearance, there's always been this assumption that I'm some right-wing MAGA guy.

Speaker 2 I was a Bernie supporter.

Speaker 2 I'm a politically homeless person, for sure. You know, I always considered myself a left-wing person.
I never thought I would ever vote right-wing.

Speaker 2 But then the tides of culture shifted in a very bizarre way. And it just made me, over time, much more aware of what this stuff is really all about.

Speaker 2 Because what this stuff is really all about is just these natural human behavior patterns and these tribal instincts that we have and it overpowers all discussions.

Speaker 2 It overpowers what's good for the collective group. It overpowers everything.

Speaker 2 It's just people pick a fucking team and then whatever that team says, they can do no harm.

Speaker 2 They will do their best to marginalize the horrible effects of the furthest extreme version of that, whether it's Antifo or the Proud Boys. They'll minimalize the.

Speaker 2 It's the same thing, man. It's the same.
If you look at what's going on with the liberals right now, so progressives are, they want the war in Ukraine to be funded. They want to censor speech online.

Speaker 2 And they want to give the World Health Organization, which is deeply influenced by big pharma, including the FDA, deeply influenced.

Speaker 2 The revolving door between the FDA and pharmaceutical drug companies is legendary. And they want to give them control over what we take and what we don't take.
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 And that doesn't make sense because that's not what the liberals were when I was a kid. My parents were hippies.
You know, we lived in San Francisco during the Vietnam War.

Speaker 2 My parents were like straight-up hippies. That's how I was raised.
And so for me, it was always like the liberals were the ones who wanted education and open-mindedness.

Speaker 2 The liberals who were the ones with the ACLU let the Nazis talk and let them have a rally.

Speaker 2 They said you can't infringe on people's free speech because if you infringe on the speech of people that you disagree with, you're being a fucking hypocrite.

Speaker 2 You've got to, the only solution to bad speech is better speech. We've always known that.

Speaker 2 But when they had the power over social media and these collective groups of people that all had the same ideology, and then that tribal mentality kicks in and you lose the perspective that you should have as an

Speaker 2 educated person that recognizes that everyone has to be able to talk and we have to figure out who's right. And you might be wrong.

Speaker 2 You might be wrong and you might be clinging to this idea that you're right and you're going to do the whole thing a terrible disservice.

Speaker 1 You know, the thing that I loved about the left, Joe, was the anti-establishment left. The left that were like, you know, we're going to challenge authority.

Speaker 1 We're not going to listen to what the parties in charge may be saying.

Speaker 1 You know, what I used to listen to Bill Hicks when I was a kid, when I was 19 and go, oh, you know, that to me was like a totem of the left.

Speaker 1 But you just look at, you know, what happened to the left and what I saw in my own country and here. And it just seemed like this herd mentality came in.

Speaker 1 And the moment you stopped, you started questioning or pushing back, it was the moment you just found yourself exiled from the group.

Speaker 1 And it just seemed that what I fell in love with at one point in my life no longer existed.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because it's bullshit. And I think we should even stop calling it the left and the right because it's just tribes.

Speaker 2 And that is the real problem.

Speaker 2 When you have people that are supposedly progressive and liberal and they're opposed to the idea that free speech is an absolute right as an American citizen, it's very, very important.

Speaker 2 It's very important because it's the because too many people can decide what you can and can't say. Like when Tim Walt was saying like, free speech doesn't apply to hate speech and misinformation.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 of course it does. First of all, of course it does.
But also, you said misinformation.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, if that's the case, like where is all the punishment of all the people that spread misinformation during COVID? Like where's the call?

Speaker 2 Where's the call for accountability? It's non-existent. It's not real.
They don't really care about misinformation. They care about controlling information.

Speaker 3 100%, man. And look, this is going to sound like a party party political point.
It's not intended to be, but if we look at the facts

Speaker 3 from 2016 onwards, we've heard a lot of misinformation.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 A lot of it. A lot of it.
And nobody ever got punished for that. Nobody ever went to punishment.

Speaker 2 Some of those people are still in positions of power.

Speaker 3 And still supposedly the respected arbiters of truth and morality and all that.

Speaker 2 Sure, they're still making appearances on these cable news talk shows. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And look, I think the concern about inaccurate information is perfectly valid and a legitimate thing for us to worry about in an ecosystem where information travels so quickly.

Speaker 3 It's not an illegitimate thing to be concerned about. But you can't have one side lie, call the other side accurate.

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Rated M for mature.

Speaker 3 Out for its lies and then go, only that is misinformation. What we say, that's, oh, oh, yeah, we said it, but we forgot about it.
It's fine.

Speaker 2 Also,

Speaker 2 there's this inherent problem with business being entangled in information. And that's what happened when these tech companies exploded.
Right.

Speaker 2 So business, an enormous business, not small business, business like Google and Facebook and Apple, and these are huge businesses. And all of a sudden, they are in charge of information.

Speaker 2 Not necessarily Apple, but in a way, because they have like banned people from the Apple store and banned people from.

Speaker 2 But it's their businesses, enormous businesses, but they're super left-wing.

Speaker 2 Not just super left-wing, but like super woke left-wing, which is like kind of the craziest version of it where it's just there's no room for negotiation. Anybody who disagrees is a fascist.

Speaker 2 It gets like real weird. It gets real weird with ideas.

Speaker 2 So you have, for the first time ever, human beings are capable of just with a device they carry around with them that has unbelievable amounts of power.

Speaker 2 That device has, first of all, you can be on it for like, what, 20 hours now, the new ones? They're like 20-hour battery life of just you staring at a fucking screen all day.

Speaker 2 And you're getting connected with an infinite number of ideas that are constantly coming your way. And it's almost all in the hands of left-wing.

Speaker 2 The left-wing party is Google, it's Facebook, it's all these companies that have massive power. And until Elon stepped in and bought Twitter, there was no counter to that.

Speaker 2 It was just one side, and that's where things get really weird because businesses like to have monopolies, they like to crush things.

Speaker 2 And if you have the monopoly of information, you get essentially Microsoft in information form.

Speaker 2 You know, when they have the antitrust lawsuits against Microsoft and people worry that it's a monopoly, and there's people that think that about Google now, and there's even conversations about Apple being a monopoly.

Speaker 2 Businesses love that. They love to kick ass.
You know, they like to fucking dominate the business.

Speaker 2 Your goal, if you run a business, you literally

Speaker 2 have an obligation to your shareholders that you continually grow the business. There's only one way to do that, kids.
You got to kick some fucking ass.

Speaker 2 And if you're the biggest thing, and what is in your interest? Well, definitely controlling the information. We would like to control information.

Speaker 2 And we also want some cultural beach balls that we could chuck around so people get distracted and throw them back and forth at each other.

Speaker 2 There's a bunch of Republicans that love the fact that there's these gender-affirming care centers. They love it because it gives them something to yell about.

Speaker 2 It gives them something like, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them fund these things. Some people are fucking crazy.
They're fucking crazy. Especially if they found out if it was profitable.

Speaker 2 Maybe they got a fucking some sort of a fund, and part of it is a, you know, these are privately owned businesses.

Speaker 2 The whole thing is just human tribal characteristics applied to the way we're supposed to like coexist with each other and share the space. And it's all all fucked up.

Speaker 2 It's all fucked up because it's the cowboys versus the Raiders that no one's thinking straight.

Speaker 3 That's so true. At election time especially, it becomes like that.
But I am hopeful. This election, I think there is one thing going on, which I'm actually really hopeful about, which is,

Speaker 3 you know, you had Trump on on Friday.

Speaker 3 Like the conversation is moving from the clickbait, five-second mainstream media journalist will tell you what to think to a three-hour conversation, you get to see see the real person.

Speaker 3 If that continues, which it will, and by the time of the next election, this format will be the dominant format, I think,

Speaker 3 the type of person who is going to be selected for positions of leadership will be a different type of person than the type of person who's selected on 10-second soundbites on mainstream media.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, well, you certainly have a way better grasp of who they are.

Speaker 3 But the medium is the message. It will change the type of person that succeeds in that format.

Speaker 2 Right, the Viveks will rise. Right.

Speaker 3 And that gives us a chance actually to change the political leadership in Western elites, which is

Speaker 3 badly needed. And we've been talking about it for God knows how many years now, that the caliber of people coming through is not high enough.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 If this format takes over, that will change. And I don't know.

Speaker 3 It might just be a small blip on the road down to oblivion, but it might just be actually the thing that changes the type of leaders we elect. And that's exciting.

Speaker 2 There's a bunch of people that are out there now that I'm very excited about. One of them is Vivek.
A big one is Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr., of course. I love that guy.

Speaker 2 I love what he's done his entire career. And I love what he's trying to do with health.
I mean, this is a real issue that we all face. And we're all being poisoned.
And they're profiting off of it.

Speaker 2 And we're not doing shit about it. Meanwhile, you stop psychedelics from being given to veterans to help them with PTSD.
It doesn't make any sense. This makes zero fucking sense.

Speaker 2 And they have so much control over what you say and do because if you can decide that something is

Speaker 2 unsuitable for the population, like the drug schedule program they have in the United States, right? They have Schedule 1, 2, and 3, depending upon if there's any medicinal use for it.

Speaker 2 And psychedelics are all in Schedule 1. That is crazy.
If you're telling me there's no medicinal use, you could get thousands of people to testify in Congress about soldiers in particular.

Speaker 2 I know so many soldiers. No one prepares them for that.
They go over there when they're 19 years old and they see people get blown up. They lose their friends.

Speaker 2 They come back and then they're supposed to just integrate. And there's no fucking program that can help you do that.

Speaker 2 You're on your own and you got to sort through what you've seen that's so different than all these people around you.

Speaker 2 You have to sort through seeing your friends die. You have to sort through having to kill people.
You have to sort through that and just exist.

Speaker 2 And then there's a tremendous amount of veterans who commit suicide. It's a crazy number.

Speaker 2 And psychedelics are proven to help that.

Speaker 2 So the fact that there's some sort of an organization that thinks that somehow or another that is bad, that this thing that doesn't kill anybody, literally like the LD50 rate for psilocybin is something insane.

Speaker 2 It's like you have to take, well, it's like 100 pounds of it or something. I don't know what it is.
Like, let's find out what's the LD50 rate, which means lethal lethal dose at 50% of the population.

Speaker 2 Like, what kills half the people? It's like, you can't do it.

Speaker 2 That's not what the concern is. Are there concerns about people losing their marbles when they do it? Yeah.
Yeah, there is concerns.

Speaker 2 It's not a fucking free ride. You know, there's some people that are mentally fragile and they have mental issues already.
They shouldn't be doing that.

Speaker 2 But for everybody else, there should be a conversation where we figure out how to make the world a better place.

Speaker 2 And one of the ways to make a world a better place is to make people more kind, more compassionate, and more understanding. And that's something that psychedelics provides.

Speaker 2 And the fact that that is somehow or another listed by a country that is the leader of the free world in the most information-rich time alive.

Speaker 2 There's so much access to information. We all know what they really are and what they're not.

Speaker 2 And yet this organization that somehow or another shadow organization that controls what we do tells you you can't have that. If you have it, you go to jail.
That's bananas.

Speaker 2 That doesn't make any sense. And as long as we keep stupid shit like that, people will never have hope that there's going to be a better horizon, a better future.

Speaker 2 They would think that all these things are so, it takes so long just for marijuana. Look, marijuana is still not federally legal, but it's legal in like half the states.
It took so long for people.

Speaker 2 They're drinking whiskey on every fucking corner. People are just doing shots and drinking tequila.
And

Speaker 2 marijuana is something that gets you locked in a cage. As long as something like that exists, it's preposterous and completely illogical.

Speaker 2 The good that it serves is the ruling class, it gets to rule without logic.

Speaker 2 Because they don't have to, it doesn't have to make sense. Fuck you, you're going to jail.

Speaker 2 And as long as they say that, you're like, ah, we raise your taxes, you got to pay them. Fuck you, you're going to jail.
But the fucking Constitution, shut up.

Speaker 2 So if there's like an illegal situation like that or an illogical situation like that rather

Speaker 2 it makes you lose faith in the whole system but when someone like rfk jr comes along and says hey i think we can fix this it's like give him a fucking chance maybe he can maybe he can fix this whole health system where we've been co-opted by these these giant organizations that want you to make money you know we interviewed on the show

Speaker 1 yeah absolutely you know on our show uh we interviewed a guy called

Speaker 1 Dr. David Nutt, who's a neuropharmacologist.

Speaker 1 And he's in charge of the hallucinogenic trials in Imperial College London, looking at how these particular drugs can alleviate PTSD, anxiety, other types of mental health disorders, and depression.

Speaker 1 And the results that are coming out of there are fantastic.

Speaker 1 That's actually showing that a lot of drugs like psilocybin are, in fact, far more effective than prescription meds when it comes to alleviating conditions like depression and it's really impressive what they're doing it you know I've talked to a lot of guys what is this Jamie

Speaker 2 I can't hear you buddy

Speaker 2 oh the LD50 rate oh so

Speaker 2 your mic's not on brother

Speaker 1 Joe sorry could you pass the lighter please

Speaker 1 thank you sir

Speaker 2 Jamie's got the he has to have the mic down because Carl's snoring

Speaker 2 he's not asleep so it's probably a little safer, but that was the LD50. Bro, when he snores, he fucking puts in some work.
That little dude.

Speaker 4 This is the best I could find. That was 280 per milligrams per mg to kg, which is really hard to understand.

Speaker 2 So it's 154 pounds. No, no, so for example.
For an average-sized individual. Oh, that's the weight of the average-sized individual.
So the lethal dose, 50% is, okay.

Speaker 4 Normal dose would be

Speaker 2 it actually says no lethal overdose potential. It says it's there's no potential for dying.

Speaker 2 The recommended therapeutic dose for optimum effects is 20 to 30 milligrams. For an average size individual,

Speaker 2 70 kilograms or 154 pounds, for whom the medium lethal dose, LD50, is 19,600 milligrams, making it virtually impossible to ingest a lethal dose of psilocybin. But boy, if you got close,

Speaker 2 you might figure everything out.

Speaker 2 Get to the door and you might be able to come back with enough information? Like, I've solved it. I solved it.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 I did,

Speaker 1 I probably told you about this before, but I invited a Shaman Ram to my house a couple of years ago, and I did a psilocybin trip. Yeah.
And the results of it were so profound.

Speaker 1 They changed the way I looked at the world. And I remember coming out after that the next day going, oh, all you're doing, all you really are, is a conduit for energy.
That's all you are.

Speaker 1 You're a conduit for positive energy or light, or you're a conduit for dark. And that's really your choice as a human being.

Speaker 1 Do you want to put light and love out into the world, or do you want to put dark? Because we have both of those fundamentally contained within our soul.

Speaker 1 So it's up to you as an individual, what do you want to put out there? And if you want to put out light and love, you're going to get back light and love.

Speaker 1 And if you want to put darkness, anger, destruction, you know what? That is going to come back on you threefold.

Speaker 2 It's true. It really is true.
It seems so simplistic and ideal. Oh, that's such a utopian version of the world.

Speaker 2 But for the most part, there's something real to it, and you do sense that. You do sense that sometimes in life.

Speaker 2 There's these beautiful moments in life where you're kind of like, oh, this can be navigated. This life can be navigated better.

Speaker 2 And one of the best ways to navigate life is to avoid conflict at all costs. It never solves anything.
It almost always creates problems.

Speaker 2 And people that want conflict all the time are the most miserable people. They're just constantly embroiled in hate and anger and trying to get people back.

Speaker 2 And I think people, that's the negative thing that people associate with Trump. The negative thing that people associate with Trump is of like, you hit him, he's hitting you back harder.

Speaker 2 Like, he's got this thing. You know, like he called some lady that,

Speaker 2 you know, one of the ladies that he allegedly had an affair with, he called her horse face on Twitter while he's sitting president. That is so crazy.

Speaker 2 So that bothers people because it's like that kind of energy. You know, we don't like that kind of energy.
And I think that's something that people are very apprehensive about for a leader.

Speaker 3 Sure. What was your sense of his energy when he was here?

Speaker 2 He's very charming, right? So he's very friendly to me. And he also, we have a very good mutual friend, Dana White.
Dana White loves him.

Speaker 2 He stuck up for Dana when MMA was a band sport and he let them put on his events in

Speaker 2 Trump Casino in Atlantic City. And so Dana loves the the guy and they've always had a good friendship.
You know,

Speaker 2 he got mad at me one time because I said that RFK Jr. was the only guy that makes sense.
But I was essentially saying it the same way I'm saying it here. It's like what RFK Jr.

Speaker 2 is, he talks about facts and talks about reality and he talks about issues and he talks about like studies and what we know about things. He's just brilliant with his recall.

Speaker 2 And he doesn't attack people. And I think we could all use more of that.
Even if he's writing something about something like in that book, The Real Anthony Fauci, it's because it's true.

Speaker 2 And it's not good information. And it affects all of us.

Speaker 2 He's not like personally attacking someone. And I think that personal attack stuff is what bothers people.
And so what did he do? He just attacked me.

Speaker 2 But he attacked me in the craziest way. He said,

Speaker 2 I wonder how loud Joe Rogan's going to get booed at the next time he goes to the UFC. I'm like, hey, bro.
Like out of all the places. That's kind of your homecore right there.

Speaker 2 Places where you think I'm going to get booed. Come on, man.

Speaker 2 Those fucking people. I've been working for that company for 27 years.
Like, whatever it's been. I mean, yeah, when did I start? I started in 97.
That was the first time I worked for the UFC.

Speaker 2 Like, come on. That's a crazy thing to say.
Or, how about I hate Taylor Swift? I forgot to ask him about that one. Did he really tweet that?

Speaker 2 I think he put it on True Social when she endorsed Kamala Harris. All capital letters.
I hate Taylor Swift. I think he just has this room.
It's so crazy.

Speaker 3 Like, he just has to after go after anyone who says anything negative about it.

Speaker 2 It's why he's still in the game though. This is you have to realize like that's the kind of guy that even though they throw 40 felonies at him, he's still in the game and he's still all day.

Speaker 2 He sat here for three fucking hours, man. And that didn't have to pee before, didn't have to pee afterwards, just gets on the fucking plane,

Speaker 2 flies to Michigan, does the other thing. He's two hours late.
He just goes, man. It's kind of bizarre.
Like people, you hear about that, you're like, ah, that's not true.

Speaker 2 Like, no, he really stays locked in. He didn't get tired.
You know, he was 78 years old, but he was locked in. He's got a lot of energy.

Speaker 3 It's unbelievable how much energy he has. And one of the things I said as well is after you watched his first presidency, he didn't age.

Speaker 2 Do you remember Barack Obama?

Speaker 3 Exactly. Barack Obama was like, it was like someone drained the color from him.

Speaker 1 Same with Blair.

Speaker 2 Yeah, same with Blair. Everybody, everybody gets hit hard.

Speaker 2 Look at Biden. Biden basically died.

Speaker 2 I mean, he got to the point where

Speaker 2 he

Speaker 2 was. Every now and then, he,

Speaker 2 I said basically, every now and then he fucking will hold a press conference, and it's wild. It's like, so who lets him get to the mic?

Speaker 2 He's still the president. But meanwhile,

Speaker 2 who's running this motherfucker?

Speaker 2 She's doing podcasts. She's flying all over the place.
There's no way you're paying attention. So who's running this thing? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Nancy pelosi she's in a bathtub filled with diamonds same age though as well isn't it she's older she's older than all of them she's like 83 you know what it kind of feels like you know when you're in school and like the teacher leaves gets called out by you know and then it's just you in the class the rest of the class and you're looking around going the fuck's going on yeah how are we free you know what it feels like for me when i use my tesla and i use auto drive I'm just hands off like, Jesus, does this work?

Speaker 2 I know it's supposed to work, but I got to keep my hands here.

Speaker 3 Thank God for the deep stain, huh?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well,

Speaker 2 if that's real, if that's what's running this thing, I assume it's his cabinet that's running everything. But even then, it's like, is that really how it's supposed to be? It's kind of not.

Speaker 2 It's kind of the weird thing about running for president when you already have a job. It's like, that's why people get mad at governors who run for president.

Speaker 2 It's like, hey, bro, you're supposed to be governing. Like, we got a lot of problems here.
And you're clearly not.

Speaker 2 It's like, if you don't want to quit your job to apply for another job, the people that already employed you are like, hey, fuckface, you're not even here every day.

Speaker 2 You're trying to get this other job. This is nuts.
Like, I've never seen an employee where you're not on the job and yet you're still here.

Speaker 2 And if you don't get the new job, you get to come back and be in this job. That's crazy.
Why do we let that happen? Like, if you want to be governor, okay, you're governor.

Speaker 2 You want to run for president? You got to quit being governor. Or you got to do your term out because you're going to leave us anyway.

Speaker 2 So, like, if you have two more years left and the elections are on it, you're going to leave us. You're going to leave us high and dry here, you fuckhead.
Quit the job. Quit the fucking job.

Speaker 2 You can't have two jobs. So, it's that's the nuttiest thing about running for president for re-election, right?

Speaker 2 So, in Kamala Harris's case, she's not necessarily really running for re-election because she's the vice president, but she's also the vice president that's running for president.

Speaker 2 So, she has the second most important job in the world, and she's not doing it because she has to run for the first most important job. So who's doing the job? Well, who's doing both jobs?

Speaker 2 Who's doing vice versa?

Speaker 2 Where's the Porters are?

Speaker 2 Oh, man.

Speaker 1 It has that feeling, though, that you remember like in the 90s where you like, I don't know if you felt like this, and I was much younger, where you just kind of didn't question it as much.

Speaker 2 And then all of a sudden, you start questioning things.

Speaker 1 And all it does, it leads you down from one rabbit hole to another rabbit hole to another rabbit hole. You know, it's like

Speaker 1 people always used to say to us when we started trigonometry, they were like, you know, the whole free speech thing is bullshit, blah, blah, blah. You just want to be able to say racist things.

Speaker 1 You're a race.

Speaker 2 And they were right. And they were.

Speaker 2 You know?

Speaker 2 And that's why I'm talking about it. Okay, so Texas.

Speaker 3 Yeah, whoever booked him is shitting their panelists.

Speaker 2 Why did you do that?

Speaker 2 I tell all comedians, don't ever do comedy at something that's not a comedy event.

Speaker 2 Don't do it. Don't ever do comedy at a place that's doing also.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 is he going to have a bunch of speakers and you're going to go up and do 10 minutes? Don't ever do that. It's a terrible setup.
It's a terrible setup.

Speaker 2 And it's a political rally, and you're doing jokes like you're in a comedy club. It doesn't, you can't,

Speaker 2 don't do it.

Speaker 3 I don't really blame Tony, though, because Tony is what Tony is, right? Like, if you want an insult comic, Tony is the best in the world.

Speaker 2 There's literally

Speaker 2 great specialty is roasting. Right.
He's the best roaster ever.

Speaker 3 If you booked Tony Hinchcliffe, Tony Hinchcliffe is going to be Tony Hinchcliffe. Exactly.
So whoever fucking booked him, that's the person that's made the mistake.

Speaker 2 He booked him, but apparently went over his material.

Speaker 1 Did they go over his material?

Speaker 2 Oh, my.

Speaker 2 This is what I've read on the internet, so it must be true.

Speaker 1 In the words of Donald Trump, someone's getting fired, man.

Speaker 2 I've got to tell you, that joke kills at comedy clubs. I don't like the joke.
It kills.

Speaker 2 And I said to him, I don't, it's just like, if you're Puerto Rican and you hear that in the audience, you're like, oh, it's a funny joke. The joke does well.

Speaker 2 But I said to him, I go, dude, that's the one that's going to get you stabbed. Really? Yes.

Speaker 2 And he used to talk about it on stage, saying, Joe Rogan always says, that's the one's going to get me stabbed. Like,

Speaker 2 wow. Which is so crazy.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think he'd pick stabbed at this point, given the shit that's going to happen. I think it'll blow over, just like all these things do.

Speaker 2 And there's people are always going to hate someone like Tony, and it's going to make other people love him more. It's just like he's...

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Speaker 2 Going through it right now. Yeah.
Yeah. You know, going through the storm.

Speaker 1 As somebody who, you know, has wound up, you know, who winds people up, we, you know, we've wound people up on our time.

Speaker 2 You guys are winders.

Speaker 2 We get called something beginning with W, mate. Oh, well, you guys, that's a negative over there, wanker.
You can call someone a wanker here, and it's just like, yeah,

Speaker 2 it's like calling them a cracker. It doesn't really work for a hooky.

Speaker 1 But when I saw what Tony did, I went, all right, mate, you're in a different league now to me. That is another level.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Obama was quoting his bit. But he's quoting it like it was a statement.
Right. Which is really fucked up.
He was quoting it like he was saying someone called Puerto Rico an island of garbage.

Speaker 2 But you know, that's a joke. That's like going to a Quentin Tarantino movie.
And then the man killed that woman. Like, he didn't really kill that woman.

Speaker 2 That's like a doll. Yeah.
You know, this is a movie. No one died.
Everyone's fine. They all like each other.

Speaker 3 But if you give them ammunition. Yeah, it's the problem.

Speaker 2 We were discussing this in the bathroom. Like, it's like, that's their job.
That's what they have to do. They got to do it.
That's their job.

Speaker 3 You give them ammunition, they're going to use it.

Speaker 2 Of course, they're going to do it. That's what they do.
Like, you can't assume they're going to be a good person and not use it in this critical moment.

Speaker 2 How many days are we? Like, eight days

Speaker 2 before the election? That's crazy. That's so soon.
Of course, you're going to use everything.

Speaker 1 I'd use it too. But you know what? It nicely encapsulates modern politics because it's a storm about nothing.
It's a storm about a joke at a rally.

Speaker 1 And actually, everybody's focusing on that instead of the huge problems that America has, which we all need to be discussing. And we need to be discussing in a calm, serious, and sober manner.

Speaker 1 Because, for example, if you have an open border, that's an existential crisis. Because if you can't control your borders, you don't have a country.
But we don't talk about that, really.

Speaker 1 We're getting upset because Tony Hinchkeff came along and called Puerto Rico a trash old border.

Speaker 2 But he didn't even make a joke. He made a joke.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 He made a joke.

Speaker 2 There's an island of trash. It's called Puerto Rico.
Here's where that joke comes from. Tony is actually obsessed with the Pacific garbage patch

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 like the fact that we just throw, like we were talking about like recycling. Like recycling doesn't work.
They don't do it.

Speaker 2 Most of your bottles and you throw into recycling, they get put in landfills. So there's a landfill in Puerto Rico that's way overflowed.

Speaker 2 Puerto Rico has a legitimate trash problem because they're on an island. Like where are you going to put it? Right? There's all these people living on that island.
Where are you going to put it?

Speaker 2 And so they have landfills. Their landfills are way over capacity.
So that's where the joke came from. Right.
Like, the joke came from, like, Tony being environmentally conscious.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they don't seem to have taken it that way.

Speaker 2 But from his roaster perspective, that's where the joke comes from. I think it's called Puerto Rico.
And you say it, and everybody laughs. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And actually, we were at the rally.

Speaker 3 And people say no one laughed. Not quite true.
Like, it didn't get a big laugh, but

Speaker 3 it got a bit of a laugh.

Speaker 2 It's a funny joke. Yeah, yeah.
It's you know, even Jon Stewart said it was a funny joke, which I thought was great of him.

Speaker 3 He had much better ones that got a bigger response, but yeah, it's a terrible people like, well, it wasn't funny.

Speaker 2 Right. Because it was it was a terrible setup for comedy.
Everything was wrong. If you were at a comedy club and a guy did that set, you'd be laughing.
It's just a bad setup. Everything's wrong.

Speaker 2 It's like you don't go to see acoustic m music while people are using jackhammers around you, right? Like it's not the right setup. You want to go where somewhere it's quiet.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And stand-up comedy should be done in a comedy environment, in a club.

Speaker 2 I mean, there is a great video, though, I should say, of Don Rickles. Don Rickles in the have you seen that? The Reagan's inauguration.

Speaker 2 Don Rickles was a gee, boy. He was a funny man.
He was so good. He was, it really translates today.
Like, you watch that set. It really translates today.
But I think Don Rickles was almost like

Speaker 2 he was in this category of ultra-famous comedian, right? He was in this Dave Chappelle type category where just seeing Don Rickles all of a sudden it was a comedy show.

Speaker 2 Like, oh my God, Don Rickles is here. Tony Hitchcliffe does not have that, right?

Speaker 2 If Dave Chappelle went up and did 10 minutes in front of Donald Trump or 10 minutes in front of Kamala Harris, that's a different thing.

Speaker 2 Because it's like he's a cultural icon and you immediately go into stand-up comedy mode. Like, oh shit, Chappelle's here, right?

Speaker 2 That's what Don Rickles had with reagen tony doesn't have that it's a bad thing to do the whole thing's bad it's like doing a bachelor party like when you have to do comedy at bachelor parties it's like they want horse and cocaine why is this guy telling jokes but it's just a bad environment it's a bad environment for comedy and you know that joke i i would have told him don't you fucking dare do that joke i never like sat down with him.

Speaker 2 I didn't know what bits he was going to do. But then I heard he did that joke.
I was like, oh,

Speaker 2 oh, Jesus, Tony.

Speaker 1 Here it comes.

Speaker 3 I think there are comedians probably who I think Tony is the wrong type of comedian for that environment.

Speaker 3 If you had someone come in who wasn't a roast comedian, who actually made everyone feel good and like

Speaker 2 who could do it and just talk about cultural issues and get everybody to laugh is Jimmy Dore. Jimmy Dore is really good at that.

Speaker 2 He could do something like that because he's so knowledgeable when it comes to politics. He could bridge the gaps between humor and fact and reality and what we're up against.
He could do that.

Speaker 2 But it's not Tony's wheelhouse, man. Tony's just talking shit about people's clothes and stuff.

Speaker 2 He's very fucking, very shallow with that. Like his comedy is all just, you're a loser.

Speaker 2 But it's fun. It's like, and he'll get through it.

Speaker 2 You know, he's going through a storm, and that's what happens with all these things, with people like that.

Speaker 2 But it's good for him, too. Like, when he got canceled in the past, he came back way stronger as a comic because he felt like he had to prove something.

Speaker 2 Like it made him really tighten up his material, like really edit things well and really like write sharp stuff. That's what'll happen with him.
He'll come back better.

Speaker 1 The thing I really like about Tony is Tony's a fighter. You can tell.
When we interviewed him on our show and we talked to him, I'm like, you're a fighter.

Speaker 1 You know, that's who essentially he is. And he's going to come from back from this better and stronger.
And look,

Speaker 1 everybody who is smart realizes that this is a storm about nothing. And it's being used and politicized and weaponized by the Democrat Party because that's what they do.

Speaker 2 That's what every side is.

Speaker 2 It's effective. Like, that's their job.
Like, it makes sense that they would do that. That's literally their job.
Their job is to win this fucking election.

Speaker 2 And if they can win this election by finding some lady who says Trump fingered her in the 80s,

Speaker 2 roll her out.

Speaker 2 Roll her out. Like, who else you got? You know, there's like all kinds of crazy allegations on both sides.

Speaker 2 I've seen nutty things that I don't even want to repeat about Kamala Harris that I'm sure aren't true, but it doesn't matter. They're just throwing things out there as much as possible.

Speaker 2 The thing is, like, most people aren't even paying attention to them.

Speaker 3 It makes me so angry, you know. Like, my great-grandfather, he died on the Eastern Front fighting actual Nazis.
These comparisons are just, they're illegitimate.

Speaker 3 And what they do also is they take the power away from the words because now if you say this guy is a Nazi, there are some Nazis. Like open your fucking Twitter feed.

Speaker 2 There's some Nazis. There are some real Nazis.
Right?

Speaker 3 But if you say that guy's a Nazi, no one takes it seriously anymore.

Speaker 2 Right, but there were some other things at the rally that people got offended by. And one of them, was that guy's name, Stephen Miller? Is that his name? Yeah.

Speaker 2 He yelled something like, America is for Americans.

Speaker 2 Like something like that. Let's see what he said.

Speaker 3 See what he said. I don't remember that part.

Speaker 2 That was a weird one, I thought, because I'm like, okay, what's an American?

Speaker 2 american what they're all immigrants though it's a literal country full of immigrants so what you know it's not like saying german germany is for germans right because that has a different vibe to it

Speaker 2 a bad example i i should have said like uh portugal is for portuguese yeah they got germany's for the germans you're like oh my yeah

Speaker 2 but it's that same kind of rhetoric to get people like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa why are you yelling that like what he's saying like i really like the way jd vance talks.

Speaker 2 It's not screamy, yelly. It's like very smooth, and he's very coordinated.
Very good.

Speaker 2 Sharp guy. Very good at being a very intelligent guy.
Very good at being a politician. And he does these interviews, which is interesting too, because he'll talk to all these people.

Speaker 2 We'll talk to CNN, all these people that corner him. They try to corner him on stuff.
It's interesting what people admit to and what they won't admit to, what they won't talk about.

Speaker 2 You know, like, did you see Jake Tapper and him got at it? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Jake Tapper.

Speaker 3 He's so good with the media, man. He's very good at breaking the taps, though they say.

Speaker 2 So, what does he say? Americans for Americans only? Let's see what he's how he says it.

Speaker 2 Listen to how he says it. America is for Americans and Americans only.

Speaker 2 All right, settle down, bro. That's goofy.

Speaker 2 That's goofy because, yeah, right, but what is America? America is literally a country of immigrants. You know, there's a lot.
I want you guys to be Americans.

Speaker 2 You know, I know people that have moved here that become Americans. Best pool player in the world, Fredor Gerst.
He's from Russia, became an American citizen. He's American now.

Speaker 2 He plays literally on the Moscone Cup, which is like America's pool team. He's American.

Speaker 2 America is everybody from everywhere. That's literally what we are.
We are the actual melting pot. So America is for Americans only.
Like,

Speaker 2 okay.

Speaker 2 What does that mean? Yeah. How about let's not let in criminals, rapists, and murderers? How about that? How about let's vet the terrorists before they come across? How about say that?

Speaker 2 America's for Americans only. Like, okay.

Speaker 3 Totally. And, you know, we've traveled to many countries.

Speaker 3 I have to say, when it comes to legal immigration, I haven't been to a place that's more pro-immigrant at the level of the ordinary person than this country.

Speaker 2 Well, we love an immigrant success story. Right.
We love a guy who comes here from Nigeria and now he's worth a billion dollars and he made his own computer company. Like, holy shit, look at that.

Speaker 2 This guy came from nothing. We love a come from nothing.
We don't, that's the things that my friends from England always tell me is that there's this real

Speaker 2 sort of,

Speaker 2 there's an idea in the culture like to keep people in their place.

Speaker 2 And they don't like when someone has like wild aspirations and they'll try to shit on you. He says there's no support at all for you like chasing your dreams.

Speaker 3 Tall poppy syndrome, we call it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, look, Francis was born in the UK. I came there when I was 11.
I love Britain, but there is this element where...

Speaker 3 You're not supposed to strive. You're not supposed to think you're special.
You're not supposed to try and achieve too much. Like, everyone loves you as long as you're not too successful.

Speaker 3 But if you really think you want to be successful, it becomes more difficult. And that's why a lot of those people end up coming here.

Speaker 2 They fucking give up.

Speaker 2 Your tabloids are brutal. Your tabloids over there are brutal.
And the laws are like different.

Speaker 3 And now the tax system, too, with this government that we have now, they're literally, we're losing more millionaires than any other country in the world except China.

Speaker 2 Didn't France do that at one point in time, enact an enormous tax, and a shit ton of people left and they wound up losing money.

Speaker 3 Lots of countries done it. It doesn't work because rich people don't have to live there.

Speaker 2 Well, that's why we have to have one world government.

Speaker 2 Don't you understand? You can't just keep letting people move.

Speaker 2 Move to favorable spots. That's how America got started in the first place.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we're sleeing.

Speaker 1 What we're seeing in the UK, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure Constantine has his own view on this, is we're seeing, for me, the slow creep of, I would say, soft authoritarianism, but not even that.

Speaker 1 You look at Scotland. so Scotland on April the 1st, ironically enough, brought in hate speech, as hate speech bill, they called it.

Speaker 1 It came into law, and that has now criminalized public performance, which includes stand-up comedy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I've heard that, but the problem is they have that enormous festival there every year.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the Edinburgh Comedy Festival.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Edinburgh is like famous worldwide.

Speaker 3 It's the biggest arts festival in the world.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Ari Shafir has done it like multiple times. He raves about it.
He's like, you have to go. You have to go to Edinburgh.
I'm like, no, I don't.

Speaker 3 Shut up. No, you don't.
You don't have to go.

Speaker 2 He said it's like you should go there and do American stand-up because they're basically like a lot of them are telling stories and they have a theme every year. But he goes, it's really cool, though.

Speaker 2 It's a cool

Speaker 2 art environment. So if they come along and say that all that stuff's hate speech now, you've killed the whole thing.

Speaker 3 Well, Tony would be in B if he'd done that joke there, he would be being investigated by the police right now.

Speaker 2 Well, he'd probably be in jail if he's in Canada. Not exaggeration.

Speaker 3 This is not an exaggeration.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. No, I'm sure he would be.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's dangerous. That's the whole thing we're talking about.
It's like left-wing ideas used to be free speech is important. I mean, that's why if you go back and

Speaker 2 like even in

Speaker 2 like left-wing magazines and like remember when Gore Vidal and William F. Buckley had that debate?

Speaker 2 That was a... a brilliant moment, right? Because that was kind of like one of the first podcasts.

Speaker 2 Because they played it on. If you haven't seen that, what is the documentary about something best something enemies?

Speaker 2 It's a great documentary, but it shows that the network that put it on, I think it was ABC, was getting killed in the ratings. And otherwise, they would have never done this.

Speaker 2 And so they just decided to like, let's just take a chance. And it became this enormous success because everybody was under the best of enemies.
It's really fantastic. It's a great documentary.

Speaker 2 And, you know, William F. Buckley is kind of this stuffed shirt, kind of douchey, right-wing guy with a pretty good vocabulary.
And Gore Vidao, who is brilliant,

Speaker 2 but a weirdo man, he wrote that nutty book about a transgender woman who like Raquel Welch played in the movie. It's the craziest book that he turned into a movie.

Speaker 2 It's a really nutty movie about like a guy becomes a woman and she's really hot and then he becomes a man again. And it's like there's a lot of sex in the movie.

Speaker 2 Like it's like a perverted, bizarre, twisted movie.

Speaker 1 Sounds very progressive, Joe.

Speaker 2 It was.

Speaker 2 It was so progressive that nobody understood what the fuck he was doing. It was like way so far ahead of his time.

Speaker 2 But, you know, that was the left back then. You could, you know, you were kind of free to talk about anything.

Speaker 1 And this is the thing that is fascinating about that Scottish bill.

Speaker 2 Myra Breckenridge. I bought it on DVD.

Speaker 1 I'm not surprised.

Speaker 2 You can't stream it anywhere. Raquel Welsh, first of all, the idea that any man could ever look like Raquel Welsh.
Like, shut the fuck up. Unless she's in Thailand.

Speaker 2 This is not.

Speaker 2 The picture was controversial for sexual explicitness, including acts like female on male rape, but unlike the novel, received little to no critical praise and has been cited as one of the worst films ever made.

Speaker 2 In subsequent decades, the film has developed a cult following. It's a crazy movie.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's so interesting,

Speaker 1 the way that we, you know, things were seeded at one point in culture and now they've become mainstream.

Speaker 1 I was at the gym and then the words,

Speaker 1 the song Lola by the Kinks came out.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, transgender song.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm not dumb, but I can't understand why she walks like a woman and talks like a man. La Lola.

Speaker 2 La Lola. Lola, La Lola.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a great fucking song.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
And then you listen to it and you go, this is really progressive. And then it ends with,

Speaker 1 I know what she is, she's a man. And then I'm like, well, you'd get cancelled for this bit now.

Speaker 2 Bro, you know the craziest song. The craziest song is Brown Sugar.
Oh, yeah. You know, Rolling Stone doesn't even play Brown Sugar anymore.

Speaker 2 I went to see them in concert, and they said they would not play. I mean, they had already said it in interviews.
It's like it's too controversial a song. And then I saw the lyrics.

Speaker 2 Like, I had only heard the song. I had never read the lyrics.
And so, you know, when Mick Jagger's singing, it's hard to understand what the fuck he's saying. You know, because it's like he's singing.

Speaker 2 Like, he's making sounds out of the words that are pleasing more than he's communicating really clearly pull up the lyrics to brown sugar wait till you read this have you read it I I remember some lines but not the full thing let's see this

Speaker 2 bro

Speaker 2 this one is like yo

Speaker 1 I saw an interview with Keith Richards where they were like where the where the person said to him and maybe this was Keith Richards fucking about with the journalist where the journalist went so you know obviously brown sugar's about heroin

Speaker 1 and Keith Richards went no bro it's about sleeping with black women. And he went, okay, let's change the subject.

Speaker 2 Not just black, it was slaves. Gold Coast slave ship bound for cotton fields, sold in the market down in New Orleans.
Scarred old slaver knows he's doing all right.

Speaker 2 Hear him whip the women just around midnight. Brown sugar, how come you taste so good?

Speaker 2 Brown sugar, just like a young girl should.

Speaker 2 Drums beating cold, English blood runs hot. Lady of the house wondering when it's going to stop.
Houseboy knows that he's doing all right. You should have heard him just around midnight.

Speaker 2 Brown sugar, brown sugar.

Speaker 2 Oh, get it on. Brown sugar.
How come you taste so good, baby? Okay.

Speaker 2 Just like a black girl should. Now I bet your mama was a tent show queen, and all her boyfriends were sweet 16.
I'm no schoolboy, but I know what I like. You should have heard me just around midnight.

Speaker 2 It's a crazy song.

Speaker 1 It's a stone called Banger, though.

Speaker 2 It's a banger. It's a banger, though.
It's a fantastic song. But imagine if you put that song out today.
People are like, yo,

Speaker 2 what the fuck? That should get you canceled. Like, if you did that at a Trump rally.
Like, if

Speaker 2 the Rolling Stones came out and did brown sugar at a Trump rally, if they opened up, ladies and gentlemen, the Rolling Stones and they did brown sugar.

Speaker 3 Bro, but the world has changed so fast. Yeah.
My wife and I watched Friends the other day.

Speaker 3 You couldn't make friends now.

Speaker 2 Right, right. You can't.

Speaker 3 Like, we used to watch it regularly. We watched one episode.
We were like, this is...

Speaker 3 This is like, it's transphobic. It's racist.
It's a whole bunch of shit.

Speaker 1 That's why it's funny.

Speaker 2 Well, have you ever seen Ace Ventura, Pet Detective? Yo, yes. Holy shit.

Speaker 2 Try watching that again. You're like, yo, you couldn't make this movie at all today.
So many great comedies. There's no fucking way Tropic Thunder gets made today.
No. No way.

Speaker 2 It's one of the greatest comedies of all time. It's a phenomenal movie.
You couldn't make it.

Speaker 3 Do you think, do you think this is like outright a bad thing or outright a good thing? Or do you think it's kind of halfway? Like, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 It's going to force courage. Right? Because people obviously want to see those kind of movies.
It's just someone's going to have to have the courage to make it.

Speaker 2 And if they do have the courage to make it, it will get criticized, but it'll also be wildly successful.

Speaker 2 If they really went for it and made a super bad today, like a fucking all-out crazy comedy it would be huge people would be so happy so the only people that are reaping the rewards of that desire for rebellion are comics we're the only ones comics and podcasters and mostly podcasters are comics like a lot of them are at least at least the comedy podcasts but that's the thing the there is now a vacuum There is now a vacuum for people to step in because it got to the point, particularly with TV comedy in the UK, and I remember saying it to comics in a comedy club, people's WhatsApp group is now funnier than TV comedy.

Speaker 1 And part of the reason is because if everybody saw your WhatsApp group, we'd all be cancelled.

Speaker 2 Right, right, right. Especially the ones I have.

Speaker 2 Bro.

Speaker 3 But it's not just you, man. It's everybody.

Speaker 2 It's everybody. Everybody's hiding, right? Everybody's hiding.
It's talking shit, right? And this is what's fun about memes. Like, I don't believe the thing in the meme is true, but it's funny.

Speaker 2 It's a funny, crazy thing to say.

Speaker 1 But But why did we get to a point where we just believe that every joke was true? That every joke was a statement of fact.

Speaker 2 We don't believe it, but certain people want to use it because they're words written on paper or words spoken out loud, and they want to use it as if it's a real statement.

Speaker 2 Just like the analogy I made about Quentin Tarantino movies. Like, it's not really killing anybody in those movies.

Speaker 2 It's like you want to pretend that this thing that this person's doing, you could decide it sucks. You could decide it's hateful.
You don't like it.

Speaker 2 It's not your kind of comedy. It's punching down.
You can come up with all sorts of reasons why you don't like it.

Speaker 2 But that's like the same kind of reasons why you don't like ACDC, you know, and you like Liz Fair. Like everybody has their own thing that they like and don't like.

Speaker 2 But you can't pretend that it's a statement. It's not a statement.
It's comedy. And

Speaker 2 I swear to God, if you see him do it on stage, it fucking kills. Yeah.

Speaker 3 This is why I am excited, though, man, because look at you. You just had one of the former president, presidential candidate.

Speaker 3 By the time of the next election, it's going to be everyone's going to be doing podcasts. There's no getting away from it.

Speaker 2 Well, what's interesting is

Speaker 2 something happened. I'm sure it was a mistake at YouTube where you couldn't search for it.

Speaker 2 I'm sure it was a mistake. It has to be a mistake.
It was a mistake that was on purpose. And so if you Googled Rogan Trump, they got to Joe.

Speaker 3 They got to Joe.

Speaker 2 You could only get clips. You couldn't watch the whole episode.
You couldn't find it.

Speaker 2 And so we reached out to them a couple of times, and they fixed it to their credit. So now you can find it.

Speaker 2 but so in the meantime Elon was furious and so Elon contacted Daniel Eck at Spotify and they put it on X as well so now it's on X the full and co so now it has way more views because I think on Elon's alone what is it on Elon's alone because Elon posted it and I posted it this morning like right I posted it last night I woke up it was like six and a half million views on mine and eight plus million on his so it's just it's a you can't suppress shit it doesn't work this is the internet This is 2024 people are gonna realize what you're doing if you try to make it so that something can't come up in a search engine because it's too popular first of all if that's not trending you tell me what the fuck is

Speaker 2 okay, so what's it at now 8.6 million on mine and what's it on on Elon's?

Speaker 2 Because he has a lot more people on his than me. So that's just from last night.

Speaker 2 But you can't fucking suppress shit anymore. Like when you're saying that that's why is that not in the trending?

Speaker 2 You have a trending thing what's your trending thing really then if one show has 36 million downloads in two days like that's not trending like what's trending for you mr.

Speaker 2 Beast like he gets a little more than that but 12 million for Elon so he's at 12 so it's 20 million it hit 20 million in a day just on X and that's just us there's a ton of clips there's a ton of other accounts that have done it illegally where they've taken the episode the full episode and uploaded it right so who knows how many views those have?

Speaker 3 So Joe, can I just check? Why do you say you're certain it was just a mistake?

Speaker 2 It's just a mistake. I'm being sarcastic.
Oh,

Speaker 2 I didn't get that.

Speaker 3 Now, it was my turn to miss the sarcasm. Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like, there's no way it was a mistake. That's too convenient.
But it could have been like some rogue engineer. You know, there's a lot of people that are working behind the scenes.

Speaker 3 So you think they suppressed. That is so dumb, though.

Speaker 2 But there's a video. You could watch the video of people searching for it.
I did. I couldn't find it.
It wasn't showing showing up for you. You couldn't find it.
I couldn't find it.

Speaker 2 I couldn't find it. And then it got to the point where you only had to write, you had to write Joe Rogan.
They fixed it a little, where you write Joe Rogan Trump interview, and then it would come up.

Speaker 2 But if you just wrote Rogan Trump, only you get the clips.

Speaker 1 Do you think it kind of worked for the Hunter Biden laptop story?

Speaker 1 What they did and their tactics around it. Now, obviously, it came out later and it was a big scandal, but at the time, it kind of worked.

Speaker 1 Do you think they might have thought, well, you know, it kind of worked for this. Therefore, we should try it for this.

Speaker 2 I think they're desperate because they had no idea it was going to be that popular.

Speaker 2 And it's a runaway train and they hate it because ideologically, they're opposed to the idea of him being more popular.

Speaker 2 It's just like what we were talking about before, the left wing being in control of these massive media distribution companies like YouTube or like Facebook. Facebook.
They're massive companies.

Speaker 2 They have so much influence on everything. And they didn't like that this one was slipping away.
And so they did something. And Jamie showed me like the image of the interactions.

Speaker 2 Like when it when they did that, it dropped off a cliff because people couldn't find it. So they just gave up or they just watched the clips.

Speaker 2 So you see like how much downloads it's getting and then it just

Speaker 4 what about that claim about the reporting taking it down?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that could be it too, right?

Speaker 2 They were saying that if you mass report something enough so what was the actual claim? Like somebody posted I sent it to to you, right?

Speaker 4 Basically, what you're about to say, if you mass report something enough, it might have just taken it out of the search because it wasn't like they didn't delete the video from our channel or anything.

Speaker 2 Right. Right.
So that could be.

Speaker 2 That could be it. But that's also the same thing, right? Because it's people that are on the left that are mass reporting something to try to silence it rather than just letting people do it.

Speaker 2 So maybe it's not the company itself, but it's the people that are attached to the ideology that the company follows.

Speaker 2 And they think that you should be able to do something about a conversation like that.

Speaker 1 But it's so stupid, Joe.

Speaker 1 It's so ridiculous because I look at that and I go, like you said, all you're going to do is you're going to bring more eyeballs to it because everyone's going to think, hang on, they're going to,

Speaker 1 well, I'm definitely going to watch it now. It's so, I just don't understand.
And this is me being a little bit naive and whatever else. And go, why not for the Democrat Party, why don't you do this?

Speaker 1 I know it's going to blow everyone's mind. Why don't you get the best possible candidate that you can and just go in on Trump?

Speaker 2 Well, he's got false. That's why this election is so dangerous.
The reason why this election is so dangerous is we've accepted that someone could be the representative without going through a primary.

Speaker 2 So because we had to get rid of Joe Biden and everybody kind of agreed after the debate, like, oh my God, he's literally falling apart. And they decided not to have a primary.

Speaker 2 And so once they do that, then you have the whole machine behind it because there's a desperate attempt to redefine who this person is in front of everybody's eyes.

Speaker 2 This person that everybody thought like uses word salad and all of a sudden now they're the number one person.

Speaker 2 This is our savior. Barack Obama's behind her.
Everybody's behind her. Like it has to happen like that.

Speaker 2 And that's kind of crazy because they don't have much time and they're kind of manufacturing a thing. So like they're going to try everything.
It's like a desperado time.

Speaker 2 This is a part of the problem with right now.

Speaker 3 I would have thought they would have learned that lesson the last election because they tried this

Speaker 3 and it backfired massively that's why zuckerberg is now stepping back from it i don't know if you saw jeff bezos' article in the washington post yeah i did it feels to me like at least though among those guys the tide is turning man they're they don't seem to be keen to interfere in anything like the way that they did before and also as well just a final point it's not like the dems don't have form for this as well look what they did to bernie in 2016 right so right just go what again and again and again you're gonna do it how are people gonna have faith in your party?

Speaker 2 Yeah, but people don't look at that. Isn't that wild? They don't look at the idea that Bernie was getting too popular.

Speaker 2 And that was the first experience that I really had with getting attacked by the mainstream news. It's like CNN was

Speaker 2 saying that Bernie was on my show, that my show was sexist and racist or whatever the fuck it was.

Speaker 2 And, you know, that...

Speaker 2 Bernie was doing a terrible thing by coming on my show.

Speaker 2 And that was when I saw, I was like, oh, they're trying to get rid of Bernie like this is really interesting like why are they turning like you got the most popular podcast in the country why wouldn't he want to express his ideas out to the world because they didn't want him and he was appealing after that kind of a conversation and you're like oh so you're just gonna take a fraction of a penny off of speculative trades and you'll be able to fund all these things like education and really can you really do that and I was like

Speaker 2 okay tell me what you can do like you're you've been around this fucking rodeo for a long ass ass time. Maybe this guy's got a way of looking at things that is

Speaker 2 maybe it's maybe it'll work. And then I saw the machine and then they got him out of the primaries.
I was like, whoa, this is kind of crazy. And

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Speaker 2 They're willing to do that. They did it with RFK, right?

Speaker 2 They would not let him have a primary. They wouldn't allow him to compete against Joe Biden.
No fucking way.

Speaker 2 They had one guy, and that was Joe Biden, until it wasn't. And then when it wasn't, it was like, okay,

Speaker 2 Kamala, you got to be it. And then they just went hard pushing her through.
And it worked really good until some of these interviews. Right.

Speaker 2 Because those interview things are just a super unnatural way to talk. You know, you have live cameras in front of you and all these people.

Speaker 2 And already, she's got to be aware of how many people are hating on her. She has to be aware.
She has to be aware of how many people don't think she deserves a spot. She just got in.

Speaker 2 Joe, can I ask you something?

Speaker 3 Who's the they?

Speaker 3 Right? This is the thing I'm genuinely wondering. Who's the they that's trying to get Bernie not to run? Who's the they?

Speaker 2 First of all, it's the DNC, clearly, if you read Donna Rice's book.

Speaker 3 But there's got to be like one guy or one gal at the top of that, right?

Speaker 2 I think so. I think there's an organization.
I think, you know, you got your Nancy Pelosis and all the people that are in power. And one thing to consider if you're thinking about,

Speaker 2 well, why would they want Conley Harris over anybody else? Because, first of all, everybody who works in the administration right now is in the Biden-Harris administration.

Speaker 2 They would like to keep those jobs.

Speaker 2 I'd like to keep this job.

Speaker 2 What do I have to do to keep this job? And those are essentially the people that are running the show because she's busy and he's not there. So, like, those people want to keep their job.

Speaker 2 So, that's what you're experiencing right now.

Speaker 3 But, man, you know, sorry, Francis, just to finish something.

Speaker 3 Like,

Speaker 3 it sounds like a trite and rather obvious thing to say, but

Speaker 3 you're running to be the leader of the most powerful country in the world.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 You've got to be able to fucking talk, man.

Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 Well, if I'm not going to be able to do that.

Speaker 3 We don't even say this because it's so fucking obvious, but you've got to be able to communicate.

Speaker 2 Well, that's why we have primaries, right? That's what priorities. Because being a leader is a little bit more than having qualifications, right?

Speaker 2 It's being able to execute in real time under pressure. That's what those debates are all about.
It's not just about like who's got the better ideas.

Speaker 2 You could have them both write an article and find out who's got the better ideas. It's about seeing them kind of perform under pressure and respond under pressure.

Speaker 2 We want to see how you handle the cooker. That's why we like those crowds, you know, when you do those debates in front of crowds.
It's a bigger cooker.

Speaker 2 You know, we're trying to figure out whether or not you can handle it. And by having no primary and having her just go right through, and then keeping RFK Jr.
away from Biden even before that.

Speaker 2 Like, this does not give a lot of people faith that you are following the ideals that this country was founded on. And if you're just

Speaker 2 going on your own way just because you want to win, okay, you've kind of taken over this system and subverted it. You've changed it.

Speaker 3 Well, let's say you get elected, though. You're going to be sitting across from Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 If you can't fucking talk,

Speaker 3 how's that going to go?

Speaker 2 Well, good thing they don't speak English.

Speaker 2 They can take what she said and make it sound brilliant.

Speaker 2 It makes even less sense translated, believe me.

Speaker 2 You know, they're not worried at all. But also, they've been doing that job for how long? How long has Putin been in charge of Russia?

Speaker 3 How many years now? Since 1999, 25 years.

Speaker 2 Okay, 25 years being a leader of Russia, and Xi Jinping controls China with an iron fist, and he's been doing that for how long? Right.

Speaker 3 I don't know, but a long time. A long time.

Speaker 2 So you have people.

Speaker 2 It's one of the vulnerabilities of American politics is its strength. And one of the strengths is that you don't have someone who stays in and just keeps running things and becomes a dictator.

Speaker 2 You have to get out of there after eight years at most.

Speaker 2 The bad part about it is every four fucking years, we have someone who's new doing the hardest job in the world. They've never done it before.

Speaker 2 Like even Trump said, like at the beginning of his term, he did not know how to appoint people. He didn't know who to trust.
And he trusted a bunch of people he shouldn't have trusted.

Speaker 2 And he put a bunch of people in there that he should have put in.

Speaker 2 So four years of that, he got a handle on it, and now he has a completely different perspective. Why? Because he did the job already, because he's already been in there running it.

Speaker 2 Like, he goes, oh, kind of.

Speaker 2 He's a businessman. It's like, I see why this is fucking up, and I need to get smarter people in here.
And so, what does he do?

Speaker 2 He talks to Chamoth about being the head of the FDA. He talks to Elon about coming up with some government efficiency agency.
He talks to RFK about taking care of health care.

Speaker 2 He's like delegating to people that are very good at it now. And like these people that could actually impart a real change, not like a sort of fucking

Speaker 2 Fagesi change where you're just like putting on a different mask. No, a real change of the system.

Speaker 2 And that's one of the reasons why the resistance against it is so hard because so many people are going to be out of work.

Speaker 1 And you know what I found really interesting looking at the Democrats? You look back at the Bernie 2016 thing. They didn't appoint Bernie.
They appointed their person, Hillary, right?

Speaker 1 Trump took a lot of Bernie's talking points and went on and won the election. And you would, and because it spoke to the average American.

Speaker 1 And the average American felt no connection with Hillary whatsoever. So you're actually going, if you had just got and been fair, Bernie might actually have won.

Speaker 1 He might actually have won because he had cut through with the average American. But they didn't want that.
They appointed their person and then they ended up losing.

Speaker 1 And then they had a tantrum and said it was Russia interference and all the rest of it. No, it was you.

Speaker 1 You stopped the person who actually could have won the election for you, who could have cut through to the average American. You didn't want that, and you screwed it up for yourself.

Speaker 1 And then you had a tantrum at the end of it, blaming everyone.

Speaker 2 And then there was also the polls, right? The polls had her winning. Like, by a huge margin.
I think on election night, it was like a 90% chance that she was going to be the president.

Speaker 2 Something crazy. So for him to show that the the polls were bullshit,

Speaker 2 it's good in a way, but it's also like now they're going to tighten things down significantly. If the same sort of apparatus that would keep a guy like Bernie Sanders out or a guy like Robert F.

Speaker 2 Kennedy Jr. out, they're not playing fair.

Speaker 2 They're not interested in playing fair. They're interested in winning, is whatever the fuck it takes to get through this thing and win.
They want to keep their jobs. It's just like

Speaker 2 they're engaging in corporate warfare, it's like, or legal fare. It's like they're weaponizing the justice system to go after their opponent.
They're doing everything they can. All of the things.

Speaker 3 What's your sense of how it's going to go?

Speaker 2 I have zero idea. Zero idea.
I do not like that

Speaker 2 people are suing to make sure that voter ID isn't required. People are suing to stop people.

Speaker 2 from using ID to vote. That's the only reason why you would do that is you want people to vote that shouldn't be voting.
That's the only reason. That doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 3 You know, we've been here a week now. I've had to show ID to get into a bar, to rent a car, to rent a hotel room.

Speaker 2 Like, yeah, it's just ridiculous.

Speaker 3 Everyone has fucking ID.

Speaker 2 But the saying it's racist to require ID is so crazy. Or it's bad for poor rural Americans to require ID.
That's crazy. They have cars.
Everyone has a car. I saw some data on the internet.

Speaker 3 It might be wrong, but it's showed that ethnic minorities actually have a higher support for ID for voting than white people.

Speaker 2 Probably because they went through it to get a fucking ID. Right.
Right? Ethnic minorities went through it, became American citizens, actually got the legal right to vote. They're proud of it.

Speaker 2 And they're like, hey, do what I did. Don't just cheat.

Speaker 2 You guys are cheating. Seems like a reasonable point.
That's so reasonable. But anybody who would say that that's not reasonable only wants to win.
Right?

Speaker 2 You know, I'm pretty left of center for the most part. And

Speaker 2 I see that. I'm like, that's crazy.
You can't, that doesn't doesn't make any sense at all. You can't say people don't need IDs because it's racist or it's whatever it is.
It's

Speaker 1 racist. And the thing is, they talk about classes, right? And

Speaker 1 I used to work when I was teaching. I used to work in a lot of deprived communities.
Really, really, like people were struggling.

Speaker 1 If people made it to the end of the week with food on the table and they paid their bills, that was a win. That was an absolute win.

Speaker 1 And having worked in those communities, those people are more anti-illegal immigration than the inverted commas elites because illegal immigration brings down their wages.

Speaker 1 It brings down their ability to earn. It means that the jobs that they do get obliterated and they can no longer afford to feed their families.
It's basic economics.

Speaker 1 So this idea that, oh, you know, immigration is a right-wing issue, it's bullshit. Immigration is actually a left-wing issue.

Speaker 1 And you you look at all staunch, what you would consider to be old-school lefties. They are all, no, we need to control immigration to protect the rights and wages of workers.

Speaker 1 It's why when we had Brexit in our country, people said, oh, it's right-wing.

Speaker 1 It wasn't. I know so many blue-collar guys who voted Brexit.
They weren't racist. They weren't any of those things.

Speaker 1 But as one of them explained to me, he was like, look, Francis, I've got no problem with immigration.

Speaker 2 But at this point, it just feels like my wages are getting lower and lower and lower i've got a kid on the way i can't afford to live on this and and to to then smear that person as right wing it's it's it's obscene it's also you're giving power to the people that take advantage of these illegal immigrants air quotes because they can get those people to work for less money so you're empowering bad people to use cheap illegal labor And that becomes a problem because they'd use it all the time, especially if there's no inspections.

Speaker 2 I mean, how many many different plants have been busted across the country using illegal aliens? It happens all the time. Construction sites happens all the time.

Speaker 2 In fact, Tim Dillon said that that was one of the,

Speaker 2 he believes, one of the motivations of having the border so porous, he thinks is to get cheap labor. Because it's hard to get cheap labor.

Speaker 2 And so if you're working at a construction site and you got a bunch of illegals working for you, they have no rights.

Speaker 2 You know, they can work for a fraction of the minimum wage and it's way more money than they were getting when they were in Mexico.

Speaker 2 And then you're putting them up in a house where they all live together. They're

Speaker 2 pickled peach. They're fucking happy as shit.

Speaker 2 They can't believe they're in America and they're actually making money, and there's a road to at least some level of prosperity that exists here. So they'll work for less money.

Speaker 2 So you're empowering scumbags to pay people below

Speaker 2 standard wages. And then you're crippling all the people that are the workers who don't have any say, who are healed legally, who are, you know,

Speaker 2 they demand, they know what they're supposed to get. They demand fair wages and health insurance and all the things that you should get, employees.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's also as well. Look,

Speaker 1 my mum's Venezuelan. So,

Speaker 1 and I have got family in this country. I know a lot of Venezuelan people in this country.
And then I see what illegal Venezuelans are doing, like El Trenda Aragua, that gang.

Speaker 2 I like how you rolled your bars on them. Well, it's pretty good.

Speaker 2 I always make fun of him for that.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm just trying to you know, I'm lucky.

Speaker 2 Do your job.

Speaker 1 I need to do it, otherwise no one believes me, Joe. But, you know, I can tell you this for a fact.

Speaker 1 Every single Venezuelan who came here legally, works hard, went through the hoops to escape Venezuela, to create a better life for themselves and their family, are utterly mortified and horrified at the actions of those criminals and what is happening in this country.

Speaker 1 Sure. Because not only is it terrible for the victims, but it also reflects badly on us.
Like, you now go on Venezuelan and people think, oh, what? Like that criminal gang?

Speaker 2 Well, it's also weird that it's taking place in what they call a sanctuary city where the cops are kind of, they're handcuffed as to what they can do with these people.

Speaker 2 And one of the weirdest ones was someone was having a conversation with this woman where they were talking about these gangs. I forget who it was.
Might have been JD Vance. I forget who it was.

Speaker 2 But the woman was saying that it's only a couple of apartment complexes that have been taken over. Who was that with?

Speaker 3 I think it was JD Vines. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And he was like, do you hear yourself? Right. In the United States of America, armed gangs from Venezuela have taken over a couple of apartment buildings in your city.

Speaker 2 And you think it's not a big deal? You're trying to minimize that? How crazy that is?

Speaker 2 That illegal aliens who came across who are armed to the tits or part of a dangerous, enormous, organized gang have taken over apartment buildings and are extorting all the people that live there.

Speaker 2 And you don't think that's a problem

Speaker 2 that's wild

Speaker 3 and if you say that they go that's a right-wing talking that's wild what are we fucking talking about what are we talking about what if your mom lives in that building like what are you talking about that's crazy you're you're you're saying crazy things it doesn't make any sense it doesn't and you know i we were in la last year uh and because i have a russian name uh you know all the lift and uber drivers in la they're all armenian right so they all speak russian they recognize my name so they talk to me in russian the

Speaker 3 the guys who came in the 90s, they all came legally, they got their documentation, everything.

Speaker 3 One guy was telling me he smuggled his 83-year-old father, who's disabled, in a wheelchair through the southern border.

Speaker 3 Like all the guys that are coming now are coming through the southern border, they're not getting documentation. Why would you bother?

Speaker 3 Why would you bother?

Speaker 3 And that, you can't.

Speaker 3 Americans are the most pro-immigration people that I've ever seen. But I also think when you have high levels of illegal immigration, that undermines people's confidence in the entire system.

Speaker 3 And the worst thing is it doesn't make any logical sense. Can anyone explain to you why it is beneficial to America to have an open border? What is the benefit to America?

Speaker 2 I think 84% of Americans don't agree with it. Well, no shit.
I think it's a large number of Americans don't agree with it, and yet it's happening.

Speaker 2 And the real fear is that it's being used to buy votes. Right.
That's the real fear.

Speaker 2 Do you believe that, though? It's a great strategy. If I wanted to buy votes, I mean, if I was a sociopath, right? Which is what a corporation really is, right? Is a psychopath? How do they...

Speaker 2 There's a great book about that, right?

Speaker 2 Defining a corporation as a psychopath.

Speaker 2 As we talked about before, this

Speaker 2 need to constantly grow and this obligation to your shareholders, do whatever it takes to make the most amount of money.

Speaker 2 If you were a corporation, you wanted to control the whole country, what would you do?

Speaker 2 Well, I would incentivize people to vote one way, and I would move them in and make their life way better than it ever was before, and then let them in.

Speaker 2 And the other side's saying, We're going to deport you. Well, then, the other side's definitely not who you're going to vote for.
So, now all I have to do is let you vote.

Speaker 2 So, I can either let you vote by telling you how you don't need ID, just go ahead and vote. I can do it by offering amnesty to a certain amount of people.

Speaker 2 And then there's this thing that they keep saying that these people are here legally. But the way they're here legally is a new thing.

Speaker 2 And this new thing that they started doing during COVID is they use this shipping app to schedule amnesty meetings now.

Speaker 2 So they allow you to get into the country with this app that was really only for shipping. Pull that app up again, Jamie.

Speaker 2 So this app was originally used, so like say if you came here from you know England or whatever and you wanted to sell some stuff, you could be here for a while while you're shipping and bringing your stuff over.

Speaker 2 This is like a way that you could register so they know where you are and then you could leave.

Speaker 2 So now they changed it during COVID and made it so this app now allows you to schedule an entrance into the country.

Speaker 2 So, you don't have to have, there's no vetting, there's no checking on you, there's no who you are, but through this app, you could schedule time.

Speaker 2 They'll compensate you, they put you up, they bring you to places. So, this is a U.S.
Customs Border Protection app.

Speaker 2 So, it's

Speaker 2 CBP1, Mobile Passport, Control, MPC, and MyCBP. So, it was launched in October 2020.
CBP1 CBP1 is a free app that provides access to a variety of CBP services.

Speaker 2 It uses guided questions to help users find the right services, forms, or applications. CBP1 was originally used to help commercial trucking companies schedule cargo inspections.

Speaker 2 In 2023, the app was expanded to allow unauthorized migrants to request asylum and book appointments at the U.S.-Mexico border.

Speaker 3 But that's good. You want people to book an asylum appointment so that you could make sure whether they're legitimate claimants or not.
That's a good thing, right?

Speaker 3 The problem is when people are allowed in and they don't have a good case, right? Because America would let some people in who claim asylum. I think the American people are very generous enough.

Speaker 2 I wonder how many people they deny that try to use that app.

Speaker 3 That's a different question.

Speaker 2 The real question is, why are so many of them showing up in swing states? That's the real question.

Speaker 2 Because it's like, that seems a little suspect.

Speaker 2 If you're moving people to swing states and then you have people like Nancy Pelosi and I forget who else it was, They were making the argument that we need immigrants because Americans are not having enough babies.

Speaker 2 You know, this is Elon's argument. He's made this population collapse argument, which doesn't seem right to people because they're stuck in traffic, but it is right.

Speaker 2 If you really pay attention to the amount of people that are actually having children and what it's going to be like in the future, South Korea apparently is a gigantic disaster. Japan as well.

Speaker 3 Japan as well. We had this guy, Stephen Shaw, on the show to talk about.
He did a great documentary about it.

Speaker 3 He went all around the world looking at population decline, and it is a real fucking problem.

Speaker 2 It's a real problem. It's a real problem and so their argument, and this is a, I think it's a bullshit argument, it's like we're letting these people in because Americans aren't having any babies.

Speaker 2 Like, oh, you just figured that out? Yeah, but this is, see, this is

Speaker 3 this is this is such bullshit though, because America has a legal immigration system. You could have billions of people come into the United States legally.

Speaker 3 If you needed babies, there's a queue of a billion people who would come to America legally if you let them. Right.
That is not an argument for legal immigration.

Speaker 2 How much can you learn about about someone in a short period of time when they're coming to the border?

Speaker 2 Because like there's those numbers of like, I think it's over the last 10 years how many murderers have come through, how many rapists have come through. It's like it's staggering numbers, right?

Speaker 2 And then there's the unreported ones. A lot of these gang members, they snuck in.
The coast is wide open. The coast is weird.

Speaker 2 You know, you could be in a boat and beach yourself in San Diego and no one knows what the fuck to do. And then you jump out and you're in a van.
There's a lot of that stuff goes on.

Speaker 2 So it's like how many people are actually getting in that aren't reported? That's the real question.

Speaker 2 And they know that they've caught people that are on the terrorist watch list they know they've caught people at the border that absolutely are up to no good so it's like how many people didn't they catch how many people snuck through how how how much

Speaker 2 in danger are we because of that how much of an october 7th type attack could happen in the united states because of that to say no percentage is crazy so to say that it's possible means that you've been derelict in your duty you haven't saved us from the potential of us being invaded.

Speaker 1 And it's also as well, then what you are naturally going to get, if that is a concern, a major concern for the average working person, you are going to get a politician who is going to address those concerns and is going to make it front and center of their campaign.

Speaker 1 Of course they are.

Speaker 1 Because that is politics and that's how it works and that's a good thing. You need those people to address the concerns of ordinary people.

Speaker 1 But then they come in and then they start going, this is a a Nazi rally, this is so, and you're just going, oh, not only do you not want to have the conversation, not only do you want to justify your ideas, you want to bully, smear and harass those people with perfectly legitimate concerns in order to shut them up.

Speaker 1 So what you're going to get is what happens when someone has a very real concern about something and you smear them and you call them horrendous names. Those concerns aren't going to go anywhere.

Speaker 1 They're going to get really angry. They're going to fester.
And eventually it will turn into something nasty. Yes.

Speaker 1 And so, by doing this and continually ratcheting up the police, like a pressure cooker, continually ratcheting up the pressure, eventually it's going to boil over.

Speaker 1 And I look at them and I think to myself, do you know the forces that you are messing with? Do you understand what you're doing? Because eventually this is going to turn nasty.

Speaker 1 And I really don't want it to.

Speaker 1 I hope it doesn't. But you can only do this place so many times before people go, you know what? You're going to do that? Fuck you.
And this is what I'm going to do.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and they run the risk of that in Aurora, Colorado. They really do.
They run the risk of that with these gangs taking over apartment buildings and them not stopping it.

Speaker 2 All of it's very scary because that's what everyone's worried about.

Speaker 2 What everyone's worried is that our level of crime is going to rise up because you're bringing people from crime-ridden areas that have criminal backgrounds and you're letting them them in without vetting them and you're going to increase the crime and you're going to increase organized crime and cartel crime.

Speaker 2 That scares the fuck out of people and it should. And you can't let that in just because you want to win.

Speaker 2 You can't let that in as a side effect of this goal that you have to bring in these people that are probably wonderful people that just want a better life and they

Speaker 2 take this crazy journey where they walk on foot across the country. Hey.
I would do it too. I would 100% do it too, and I think you would as well.

Speaker 2 If you were living in those countries and the Red Cross gave you a map and said, This is what you got to do, you got to make it up here and go to these people to give you a cell phone.

Speaker 2 Like, okay, you would do it. Why wouldn't you do it? If they know you're going to get let in and then you get money and food stamps and they'll put you up at a house,

Speaker 2 what? Of course, you'd do it. And then you have like these places like New York City where these enormous luxury hotels are completely occupied with immigrants.

Speaker 2 What was that movie that that luxury hotel was in? There's like a famous movie. Is it the Jennifer Lopez movie, Made in Manhattan? Is that the movie where they have those people

Speaker 2 hold up? Find out if that's it. But it's like a famous luxury hotel.
And they just, and then all the poor people in America are like, hey, motherfucker, what about us? What about us?

Speaker 2 What about the veterans? What about homeless people? What about all these people that are down on their luck? What about all these people that are single moms? All these people that have no money?

Speaker 2 What about them?

Speaker 3 Well, this is the question I'd be asking. If you mentioned 84% of Americans are concerned about this, if I was a Democrat, that's what I'd be asking.

Speaker 2 That's the Roosevelt Roosevelt Hotel.

Speaker 2 Wow. That is crazy.
The Roosevelt Hotel is a famous hotel, and look how beautiful it is on the inside. It was just over a year ago when the Roosevelt Hotel

Speaker 5 and became the one-stop shop.

Speaker 2 So this entire hotel. So if you're a hotel guy, right, and Homelands, whoever it is.
that runs this program comes along and says, hey, we'll fully occupy your hotel 24-7.

Speaker 2 We'll give you X amount of money. You know, maybe it's more money than you would get if you were at full occupation.
Like, you're like, okay, sounds like a great deal.

Speaker 2 And so now you have housing for all these people. And then the people that are living here are very upset.
And they should be. You see it all the time.
People in Chicago are fucking fed up, man.

Speaker 2 They're like, we've been trying to solve the crime and the poverty problem here forever.

Speaker 2 City would not say how much it costs to keep the facility running every day, but Immigrant Affairs Commissioner Manuel Castro emphasized how the cost should be coming from the federal government.

Speaker 2 We hope that the federal government does more in support of asylum seekers.

Speaker 3 Okay. Well, it's like what you said, the federal government is giving money to hotel owners.
Yeah. And so everybody's happy.
Yeah. Everybody's happy, except the people of America.

Speaker 2 Well, except the people that have to deal with the problems that come along with allowing people in that aren't vetted, you know, especially people that come from a place where it's violent, you know, and crime is rampant and normal.

Speaker 3 Well, this is what I was going to say. It's like, if I were one of those Democrats who secretly harbored these concerns, the question I'd be asking is, why isn't my party

Speaker 2 dealing with this, right?

Speaker 3 If all of America basically agrees this is a problem, why is it a party political issue? Why isn't it a thing that both parties agree on, by the way, as they used to?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 All the major Democrat figures 20 years ago, I had a whole chapter in my book about it. They all used to say exactly what Donald Trump is saying now.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they do. And especially Barack Obama.
You know, he talked very...

Speaker 3 Clinton, Obama, Pelosi, Schumer.

Speaker 2 They all talked about the importance of a secure, safe border. Right.
It's always been an issue because you want to protect American citizens. It's not racist.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm all for immigration. I just think maybe we need to spend more money on letting people in legally.
But how do you vet those folks? That's the real question.

Speaker 2 Like, how much paperwork do they have? How much of a...

Speaker 3 It's pretty thorough, man.

Speaker 2 Like, Francis and I have had to apply for visa but you guys did it legally the right way that's what i'm saying but they look everywhere man like every cavity is fucking examined you know what i mean through but even people coming through i mean if they're coming through the wrong way and you want to vet them how can you even

Speaker 2 you can can you can you really

Speaker 2 i don't think it's beyond the the the the merit of the if you but if you're from uh a third world country yeah with very little paperwork Like what, how do they do that?

Speaker 3 Interviews, I would guess. They try and find out where you lived.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, how much resources would that require?

Speaker 3 Yeah, but compare that to how much resources it requires to host people in a five fucking fucking hotel.

Speaker 2 Yeah, very good point. You could be talking to those people the entire time.
So where are you from, Bob?

Speaker 2 What'd you do over there? Where are you doing those scars?

Speaker 3 America would save a lot of money if it put a lot more money into finding out who's coming here, making sure people have a legitimate claim, they've applied legally, and then you're spending the money where it's supposed to be spent, and then you've got a safe fucking country.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and then this is.

Speaker 1 And this is a really important point when people go because they did you know they do the you know the the the argument about look we have to let these people in you're letting people smugglers flourish you're letting sex traffickers flourish how many of those poor women and kids are getting brought over and basically being turned into a sex slave there's no idea they've got no identity they've got no rights how many of them are now in this country no one knows it's not zero not it's not zero it's it's a real concern and that's not something that's being brought up instead they're bringing up Tony Hinchcliffe's joke.

Speaker 2 Right. Right.

Speaker 2 Because this is an inconvenient political issue that is very dangerous. The Republicans harp on it.
The Democrats ignore it and minimize it.

Speaker 2 It's a giant issue. The human smuggling thing is a giant issue.
There's something like 300,000 kids that are missing that came across the border. They have no idea where they are.

Speaker 2 There's so many people. I mean, what is the number over the last four years that have come across illegally? I mean, what's even the estimate? What's the estimated number of crossings?

Speaker 2 It's the highest ever that's ever been in modern history.

Speaker 3 I think under Biden, there's been around 10 million total from what I've read. But Jamie, I'm sure we'll check us on that.

Speaker 2 That is five Austins. Yeah.
I mean,

Speaker 1 and what effect is that having on society? Because also there's a law of unintended consequences.

Speaker 1 What's going to be the effect not only now, but five years down the line, ten years down the line, 20 years down the line?

Speaker 2 Do they have jobs for these people?

Speaker 2 Here's the thing.

Speaker 3 Well, they do for like $2 an hour, yeah.

Speaker 2 Right, but here's the thing.

Speaker 2 Like, if there was more American manufacturing, and this is one of the things that Trump really wants to pursue, is incentivizing American manufacturing and putting tariffs on things that are brought in from overseas.

Speaker 2 If there's more American manufacturing, first of all, one of the things that was exposed during COVID, it was a big one, was how much we rely on stuff that comes from other countries, you know, especially medications.

Speaker 2 A lot of it was coming from China.

Speaker 2 And there's a lot of equipment, a lot of things got stuck. So here it is.
What's the number?

Speaker 4 11 million since since 2019, I think.

Speaker 2 11 million, yeah.

Speaker 4 This article is also like not blaming, but saying a lot has to do with in 2023, the end of Title 42, where they couldn't expel people for COVID-related reasons anymore.

Speaker 4 And then that.

Speaker 2 How many people they tested for COVID, the coming across the Rio Grande River with a backpack?

Speaker 3 Shut the fuck up. The one thing I wish the right did better on this, though, is to talk in more humane terms about it, it's always

Speaker 3 there is a kind of like these fucking illegals.

Speaker 2 Right, right, right.

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Speaker 3 We would all do what they're doing. We would.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and the way they talk about it, you know, like Trump, Trump did that dude. They're eating the dogs.
They're eating the cats. Also, a lot of them are very hard workers.

Speaker 2 If you talk to Springfield, Ohio, one of the things that these people that employ some of these people are saying is they're so thankful that they have this opportunity there.

Speaker 2 Haitians are just like everybody else, man. They're just fucking people that want to do better.
And a lot of these people that hire these folks are saying they're super hard workers.

Speaker 2 They're doing jobs that nobody wants. They're very thankful for it.
It's an opportunity for them. And then also you have bad people.
Right.

Speaker 2 Just like all groups of people that come from war-torn, fucked-up places, and they come over here, you're going to have good ones and bad ones.

Speaker 3 I'm just saying, I just wish that ire, which is perfectly like what you're saying, Francis, this is the point you made very well.

Speaker 3 It's like, you just wish that ire was directed at the people who are allowing this to happen instead of the people who are coming, because that's not going to make things better.

Speaker 2 What we need is, we need to vet people, but also we need protections to make sure that people aren't being forced to work for inhumane wages.

Speaker 2 And if we start doing that in America, well how we're no different than Foxconn in China with the fucking suicide nets around the building.

Speaker 2 We're allowing people to take advantage of people that have no hope. And that's not

Speaker 2 we one of the great things about American manufacturing, if you have a plant in America and you have regulations in terms of like what they're supposed to be paid and health care and the amount of hours they work, you can ensure that you don't have to feel bad about buying a thing from those people.

Speaker 2 Like if you buy

Speaker 2 whatever, you know, something that you know is made in America for sure, like if you buy a Ford truck that's made in Ohio or wherever they make them, hopefully it's made in America.

Speaker 2 So then way you don't have to feel bad that like...

Speaker 2 That's what's going on with all these people coming across here.

Speaker 2 Ironically, they moved so many jobs and so many things over to Mexico to get people to work for almost nothing so that these fucking corporations can make a little bit more money and we allowed that to happen and when we allowed that to happen they killed American manufacturing they killed it that's that Roger and me movie the have you ever seen Michael Moore's documentary on it about Flint Michigan it's a great documentary but they just pulled out of Michigan where they were making all the cars and then these people have nothing right they were checked to check while they were working there and then instant

Speaker 2 extreme poverty. It's a horrifying documentary.

Speaker 1 And what these people don't realize realize is the effects that has on the community. Not only the poverty element of it, but work brings dignity, Joe.
It brings purpose.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter, like, you know, the level of job that you have, but if you're going out, particularly for men, and you're doing a job, maybe you hate it, but you know what?

Speaker 1 You're earning enough money. You can feed your kids, you can feed your family.
You go, I'm doing my job as a man.

Speaker 1 I am doing what I am meant to do. When you take those jobs, which a lot of, like, for for instance, in our country, in the UK, a lot of these places were built around the factory, the plant.

Speaker 1 They were the literal hub of the community, and then you had bars and cafes and restaurants around that. When you take that out of a community, you are ripping the literal soul out of it.

Speaker 1 And all of a sudden, these people who once had purpose and dignity have got nothing. And it doesn't matter.
Even if you give them money and you go, look, here's your benefits. Nobody wants that.

Speaker 1 Nobody wants a life that's aimless. Nobody wants a life where you are dependent on handouts.

Speaker 2 This is what scares me about the future, really,

Speaker 2 because of AI. What scares me about the future, and Andrew Yang was really the first guy to bring this up.
He was talking about automation, and I think that automation and AI,

Speaker 2 they built a whole road in China in like a very short period of time just using roads or using robots rather and AI. Did you see that? I didn't know.

Speaker 2 They're much more advanced than we are with drone technology. Like, have you seen some of the light show drone shows that they do in China? They're unbelievable.
Unbelievable.

Speaker 2 Like dragons moving across the sky. It's incredible.
All these drones moving in synchronicity.

Speaker 2 They're all coordinated by AI and computers, and they're flying together, like showing, making objects in the sky. It's beautiful.

Speaker 2 So their AI technology and their drone technology and their automation has already allowed them.

Speaker 4 This was a resurfacing project, it says.

Speaker 2 Here it is. So this is no humans, man.
This is all robots. And they did this shit in record time.

Speaker 2 They did the whole road. Like, if you're a guy who, this is your livelihood, you should be fucking terrified.
And that was the source of this recent

Speaker 2 thing that was going on with the Longshoremen's Union, right? Because the longshoremen were going to go on strike and they're like, hey, we're going to get fucking replaced.

Speaker 2 We know what's going on here. We want some protections in place.
Because they see what's happening.

Speaker 2 In other countries, I think it's, is it Singapore that has a completely automated system for removing cargo? And you watch it and it works 24 hours a day. You don't have to pay it.

Speaker 2 It doesn't have kids.

Speaker 3 No injuries.

Speaker 2 No injuries. And

Speaker 2 it's really good. They're fucking super effective.
And they're going to get more effective. So you have less mistakes.

Speaker 2 You completely eliminate human error.

Speaker 2 And then once they iron the systems out and they get them even better and better and more robust, you're going to have no need for so many people that are working. So what do you do?

Speaker 2 You give them universal basic income. You tell them, find something that gives you purpose.
Like, oh, Christ.

Speaker 2 At the same time, they have AI goggles and fucking fucking, they're watching virtual reality all day, and they're not even living in the world anymore.

Speaker 2 You're just getting a check from the government and free food.

Speaker 3 And an AI girlfriend.

Speaker 2 And an AI girlfriend that makes sense. So they drop box points.

Speaker 2 I mean, it could get really fucking strange in this country in a short amount of time.

Speaker 3 But you talk to these people, right? You talk to Elon. What does he say about stuff like that?

Speaker 2 They all think it's inevitable. I think they're all right.

Speaker 2 I don't think you could stop it unless something disastrous happens, like a nuclear war or some sort of a horrific natural disaster that kills the grid.

Speaker 2 We are probably just a decade away from an unrecognizable world. 2014 is not that different than 2024.
It's kind of real similar. Cars look the same.
You still had an iPhone. It's like not that.

Speaker 2 You still have a laptop. Like, how much is different? Your internet's a little faster.
How much is different? Not that much. 2024 to 2034 is going to be fucking bananas.

Speaker 2 We could see a complete upheaval of society.

Speaker 2 If you have one party that's completely in control of the political process, there's, you know, like there's no room for a third party now because they kind of boxed out the third party.

Speaker 2 There's libertarians, but like, good luck. Good luck.
I voted for a couple of them. Good luck.
They can't win, right? Maybe it could get to that point where Republicans can't win. That could be real.

Speaker 2 And then the Democrats are going to act just like all tyrants, all groups of people that have massive control over everything. They don't want to relinquish some control

Speaker 2 for the sake of democracy. Shut the fuck up.
The only people that have ever did that were the Greeks, and they were on drugs.

Speaker 2 They were doing acid, and they said, hey, everybody should have a vote.

Speaker 1 You know, and if you have a populace that is basically just dependent on handouts, what you've got is a docile, defeated population.

Speaker 2 Yes, dependent.

Speaker 3 They're dependent on you for survival.

Speaker 1 They're dependent on you for survival, so it's not even in their interest to challenge you.

Speaker 2 It's completely outside their interest. They have no leverage.
They have no fuck you money.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you know, what are they going to do?

Speaker 1 The thing that worries me is

Speaker 1 I was reading about the driving jobs and how many driving jobs there are in this country. And driving is still a very, very well paid job in this country.
If you're a lorry driver,

Speaker 1 you earn a really good salary in this country, and that's great, that is brilliant. But the moment automated driving comes in, like that's a whole swathe of mainly men who have got nowhere to go.

Speaker 2 It's a very good point. It's millions of jobs.

Speaker 3 So they think it's inevitable, huh?

Speaker 2 Yeah, they think it's inevitable. Yeah.
I agree with them. I don't know how we adjust to that.
You know, human beings have had to make some major adjustments over the course of human history, right?

Speaker 2 Moving into cities, dealing with mechanized things like cars and trucks and trains. These are just massive adjustments that we had to make, but I don't think any of them are like this one.

Speaker 3 Yeah, this is the Industrial Revolution on steroids.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like, and it's also coming at the same time as transhumanism. It's coming at the same time as

Speaker 2 this potential integration with artificial intelligence that we're experiencing. Augmented goggles, which is like the tip of the spear, and then you're going to eventually get chips.
You know,

Speaker 2 once things like neuralink and there's a few other competing programs once they develop something that enhances human productivity enhances your mental capacity your ability to perform maybe physical capacity you know they're going to be able to do things in our lifetime that are going to make being a regular human seem stupid just like being naked in the cold seems stupid.

Speaker 2 Like, why would you be naked? You could just be warm, you fucking idiot. Like,

Speaker 2 why why are you out there freezing when you could have a nice down jacket on, you fucking moron? And that's what it's going to be like cognitively.

Speaker 2 Like, why would you want to be depressed when you can have clarity and enlightenment and you could have instantaneous access to the wireless grid as long as you don't have bad thinking, as long as you don't do anything that we don't like, as long as we don't have to shut you off?

Speaker 3 Well, there is a book about this, you know, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 3 well, it seems have some soma and chill the fuck out.

Speaker 2 Bro, that book, when you read it, especially because I read it in high school, I think, which was already 1984. So it's like, oh, this is bullshit.
It's like space 1999.

Speaker 2 It didn't really work out that way. You know, there was a TV show about people living in space in 1999 because that's what they thought.

Speaker 2 So in the 80s,

Speaker 2 when did Orwell write that book?

Speaker 1 It would have been...

Speaker 2 I think it came...

Speaker 1 No, because he was in a sanatorium. No, he was dying of consumption TB at the time.
I think it was 46 it came out.

Speaker 2 He wrote it while he was dying? Yeah, he wrote it.

Speaker 1 That's why it was kind of dark, man.

Speaker 2 1949.

Speaker 1 Oh, 49.

Speaker 2 So he writes it right after the fascism of Nazi Germany and all that stuff. And Stalin.
Yeah, and Stalin. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so he writes this book, and it just seems ludicrous at the time, but now it's like a prophecy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Especially the wrong thing stuff. Like, that is wild.

Speaker 1 You know, just touching on the AI thing, what's interesting about AI is it's also obliterating middle-class jobs. Yes, middle-class jobs, like graphic design, and pretty soon that's going to be

Speaker 2 just middle-class, but all the coders.

Speaker 1 Yeah, all the coders, all the coders are going to be gone.

Speaker 1 You're going to look at the law, accountancy. Why are you going to employ an accountant when you've got an AI to do all your books? Yeah.

Speaker 1 You just feed it into the algorithm, it will sort it all through. Boom.

Speaker 2 My fear is that it's going to get to a point where why don't we use AI for government and have really objective government

Speaker 2 that doesn't have greed or lust or desire or the need for power, ego, or to be to be validated. It doesn't need any of those things.
It doesn't ever tweet out, I hate Taylor Swift.

Speaker 2 It just fucking runs everything with

Speaker 2 the objective is to make the world better. And

Speaker 2 the objective is equal allocation of resources, particularly like natural resources that are really all of ours.

Speaker 2 Why should we have these corporations that control all the oil and the oils in the ground? The ground belongs to the humans.

Speaker 2 Why should anybody have an unbelievable amount of influence on everybody else just because they pull oil out of the ground? That seems crazy.

Speaker 1 Until it goes rogue and goes, you know what? Humans do a lot of damage to the planet.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the problem with being objective.

Speaker 2 You guys got to get your shit together. We're going to kill you all.

Speaker 2 It'll have a meeting with us and say, hey, we need to get the robbery, murder, rape rate down to zero.

Speaker 2 If we put all the men in prison,

Speaker 2 if we don't,

Speaker 2 we're just going to kill everybody.

Speaker 3 Oh, man.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 that's why

Speaker 1 you feel that.

Speaker 1 I know, and

Speaker 1 people always hype up elections. They always hype up elections.
Americans, you do show business in elections better than anyone. I went to that Trump rally.

Speaker 1 It's one of the greatest shows I've ever seen.

Speaker 2 He must not watch MSNBC because it's a Nazi rally.

Speaker 3 There were so many Israeli flags there. It was unbelievable.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there was a lot of Israel flags. Israeli flags, loads of Jews, loads of people recognizing super hard to call it a Nazi flag with a lot of Israeli flags.
I mean,

Speaker 3 it's just so silly.

Speaker 2 This bullshit. But that's what they're doing.
They're just trying to win.

Speaker 3 But you can't, you can't. The words have fucking meaning, Joe.

Speaker 2 They do, yeah.

Speaker 3 They're supposed to, and for a reason. And that word, it's supposed to have a very specific meaning.

Speaker 3 And it's like, it was a kind of a thing where, like, if someone said that about somebody, you'd go like, holy shit, I better really make sure this guy isn't that.

Speaker 3 I better really make sure this isn't that.

Speaker 2 It used to be like, oh, my God, that guy's a Nazi? Like you want to follow him, see where he's going to some secret meeting. Like, oh my God, he's really a Nazi.

Speaker 3 It's so irresponsible. It really grinds my gears, that shit, man.
It's just, I know you want to win, but this isn't winning. This is making the whole thing fucking worse.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's not good. It's not good.
And it also is not good for them because all those mainstream media companies, all the MSNBCs of the world that are doing this kind of shit,

Speaker 2 You're going to lose more and more credibility. Like you're already hemorrhaging credibility.
This is the reason why the Washington Post, why Jeff Bezos had to make that,

Speaker 2 write that article. So we need more representation of conservative voices.

Speaker 2 We can't be just endorsing presidents because you all agree to one thing and you want to educate the world.

Speaker 2 We're not activists. We're supposed to be journalists.
This is the reason why this business is hemorrhaging money and lost amazing amounts of credibility. Like stunning.

Speaker 2 We've never seen a time where more people have lost faith in mainstream news.

Speaker 1 But here's the thing. And you talk about this.
It's one of the things you talk about, and you talk about it brilliantly. Words have changed their meaning.
Words no longer mean what they used to.

Speaker 1 I saw this post from Mark Maron, and it's like he was going for the world record about trying to mention the word fascist every other sentence.

Speaker 1 And I'm going, and I'm sure, look, I'm sure Mark's a decent guy and whatever else. But I'm sure if you sat down with Mark and you'd go, Mark,

Speaker 1 explain to me what fascism is. What do you mean by fascism?

Speaker 2 It's virtue signaling. It's signaling to

Speaker 2 the tribe. It's what it is.

Speaker 2 And it's also, there's a lot of jealousy. Mark used to be at the top of the heap.
He used to have the number one podcast. Now it's like, it's not even the top 200.

Speaker 2 He was a great guy when he was number one. It's a lot of fun.
He's apologizing to everybody for being a dick when he was younger. Oh, man.

Speaker 2 But look,

Speaker 2 nuance is very important. It's very important with human beings.
And as soon as you like...

Speaker 2 conveniently categorize something as fascist and white supremacy, I think is another word he likes to use. You're being silly and you're ruining your own credibility.

Speaker 2 You're going to get a bunch of people that agree with you. Yeah, right on, man.
But they're silly too.

Speaker 2 We're just a bunch of human beings trying to coexist. What we want out of this election is a greater country.
The country is supposed to be a team. That's what it's supposed to be.

Speaker 2 It's the most amazing thing, this idea that we're all in this together. Collectively, we're a tribe of people.

Speaker 2 But we, because of our fucking stupid instincts to be on teams, we've divided ourselves right down the middle, essentially.

Speaker 2 I mean, this, depending on whose poll or what you want to read, it's kind of like pretty close down the middle.

Speaker 2 And one side thinks the other side is the end of everything, and the other side thinks the same.

Speaker 2 It's so stupid. It's so stupid, and it's just, we don't have much time.
Human beings live a hundred if you're lucky. I'm 57, so I'm three-quarters of the way dead.

Speaker 2 If I'm lucky, if everything goes great, why spend any time on nonsense? Why spend any time just pledging allegiance to your tribe?

Speaker 2 Why not just try to have a perspective that will enhance this situation and let people understand that we're really over our skis? We're out of our fucking minds.

Speaker 2 We're really like foaming at the mouth here.

Speaker 2 There's important things, and the important thing is we've got to figure out a way that we don't have a nuclear war. We've got to figure out a way where we make it easier to make a living.

Speaker 2 We have to figure out a way to make it safer for people. We have to figure out a way to secure the borders and make sure that we're not letting in terrorists.

Speaker 2 We've got to figure out a way to not have terror cells activated because it's going to be convenient politically.

Speaker 2 Look, we've got to figure out a way to not have FBI agents inciting people to enter the Capitol building.

Speaker 2 We've got to figure out a way to, like, there's a lot of shit we have to figure out collectively as a group.

Speaker 1 And there's also the tragic element of it, and people don't talk about this tragic element enough. If you think about it, we live in an ever more atomized society.
We hang out less, we see,

Speaker 1 our social groups are getting smaller and smaller. That's just a fact of how society is going.
Think about the people who've lost friends,

Speaker 1 whose relationships broke up. Marriages broke up over politics.

Speaker 1 There's a guy right now in the UK waking up in a little flat somewhere and he's looking around and he went, oh, fuck, I lost

Speaker 1 my marriage. I don't see my kids anymore because of Brexit.

Speaker 3 It's crazy. That's dumb.

Speaker 2 It's not just Brexit, it's over here. It's like if you're married to a Trump supporter and you're a Harris supporter, you're fighting over the dinner table.
That person's the enemy.

Speaker 2 It happens to people all the time. Or people get red-pilled, you know, and then they sort of like want to leave their ideological group and then the other

Speaker 2 person that you're with, maybe business partner, maybe

Speaker 2 your lover, they hate you now.

Speaker 2 You're part of the enemy. And a bunch of people that don't give a fuck about you.
They don't care about you. And you've pledged allegiance to people that don't even know your name.

Speaker 2 They don't even know, they don't know a thing about you. And they're lying on TV every night and you're still all in for them.
You're making homemade signs, running out the door and holding this.

Speaker 2 Or you're putting signs up on your lawn.

Speaker 3 But righteousness is such a drug, man.

Speaker 3 Like when we were standing in that line in New York, there was a guy that walked past and he was like, enjoy a fucking Nazi rally to like a family with young kids. You're not a good guy.

Speaker 3 You're not a good guy when you're doing that. I don't care care what your politics is.
You're not a good guy.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 3 You feel good when you're shouting, but you're not behaving in the right way.

Speaker 2 It just gives cunts the ability to scream at people because they think they're right.

Speaker 2 Especially if you've already labeled those people Nazis.

Speaker 2 Enjoy your Nazi rally. Like, you could yell at whatever you want at Nazis.
You know, that was the whole thing back in the day. Remember, punch a Nazi?

Speaker 2 Like, okay, but who gets to determine who the Nazis are? Like, if you're in World War II, yeah, you have to punch a Nazi.

Speaker 2 But if you're in Brooklyn, I bet that guy's not really a Nazi. He might just have a tie on.

Speaker 1 Or listen to this podcast.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he might be listening to this podcast.

Speaker 2 He might get punched on the subway.

Speaker 3 But you know what?

Speaker 3 I would love Kamala Harris to come on this podcast. That's the podcast I want to see the most.

Speaker 2 I would soon.

Speaker 2 But I just, I feel like very strongly that if it's going to be done, it has to be done like a regular podcast because that's the only way it works.

Speaker 2 The only way it works is just sit down and talk with somebody.

Speaker 2 You can't go to to some ballroom and some hotel where they control everything and they have cameras ready and they want to edit stuff out. It's like

Speaker 2 that's just too weird. It's not the same thing.
Like you go to see Colbert. You know, you're on his set.
You don't ask him to make a set like at the White House.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, you're doing it where he does it. Totally.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 But that is why I'm still, we've had a depressing conversation. I'm still excited because that thing you're talking about, you know, Jeff Bezos, that's the market working.
Your ratings are tanking.

Speaker 3 No one trusts you. No one buys your fucking newspaper.
Okay, well, who's doing shit right? Let's have a look around. Who's successful? Oh, it's this.

Speaker 3 Okay, maybe we need to do that thing you were talking about, Gorvidal Buckley. Maybe we need to actually have a conversation.
Maybe we need to have...

Speaker 3 I'd love for you to have Trump and Harris in here.

Speaker 3 That'd be interesting.

Speaker 2 Well, that's what I said to him. I said, what really it should be the two of you sit down and have a conversation for as long as it takes.

Speaker 2 Just no moderator, no one there.

Speaker 3 No, no, not even a moderator.

Speaker 2 I don't think I need to be in the way. It would be hilarious just to watch it talk.

Speaker 2 How long would it take? Like, what are you? Okay, how are you going to fix the economy? How are you going to fix the economy? Like, I want to do this. That was my idea.

Speaker 3 No time limit. No time limit.
Like the UFC back in the day, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, that would be how you'd really, like, when you see two people on a panel and they're talking about things, and one person really knows what they're talking about, like it's Bill Maher or whatever.

Speaker 2 When that happens, it's always fascinating to watch someone like way out of their league and they get exposed. But that same person could be doing a softball interview and they look like a wizard.

Speaker 2 They look like a genius because they already have their predetermined answers to questions that have already been presented to them, so they prepare.

Speaker 2 And that's essentially what you've been getting a lot with Kamala Harris. You've been getting a lot of this prepared stuff.

Speaker 2 You know, well, I was born in a middle-class family, and then she has this thing that she's going to say. And, you know.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's, and you know what to me is

Speaker 1 I would love to see this, but broaden it out in society. To me, the most interesting conversations are when you talk with people who disagree with you, who see the world in a different way.

Speaker 1 Yes, because no, that does two things.

Speaker 1 Not only do you learn something, but number two, you find out some of the things you think are bullshit, yeah, and they're wrong, and then they go, hang on, actually, that ain't true.

Speaker 1 Look at this, look at this, and you're like, oh, wow, actually, you know what? You're right.

Speaker 2 So it makes your ideas stronger, and you become a more fully rounded human being but that requires good faith yes that requires good faith those conversations don't happen if both of the people are playing to an audience people have a really hard time with good faith because the problem with good faith is you also have to admit you lost yes right and people get so attached to an idea they say an idea and once they said it that as a part of their fucking dna they will argue for that they don't want to be wrong they don't want to be wrong even smart people yeah like especially smart people i had an argument with a friend of mine once about divorce and that women get paid more in divorce.

Speaker 2 We were talking about how the divorce system is kind of fucked because lawyers prey upon it in order to jack up their rates. And then they turn the couple against each other.

Speaker 2 They are like, wait, well, he said this.

Speaker 2 But that motherfucker. And the next thing, you know, I want more.
And then they get, well, really, what's happening is the lawyer's jacking up his rates. He's dragging things out.

Speaker 2 And then, you know, I know guys that have been devastated by divorces. And his argument was like, Yeah, but isn't it fair that the woman gets all the money?

Speaker 2 Because women only make 75 cents a dollar for what men make. I go, Do you know that's not true? Like, do you understand what that is? And he didn't want to believe it.

Speaker 2 He was like, No, that's not what I go, it's they have different jobs and they work different hours. That's where the 75 cents comes from.

Speaker 2 It's not like a guy and a woman work together at the same job, they both do the same job, and the guy makes a dollar, and she makes 75 cents. That's not how it works.
He was like, No fucking way.

Speaker 2 I goes, Yeah. And then we looked it up.
He was like, Whoa.

Speaker 2 Because in his mind, it was always the labor market is unfair because women are getting fucked over because men take advantage of them.

Speaker 2 The way we're talking about them taking advantage of illegal immigrants and making them work for less.

Speaker 2 No, if you were working in a corporation, a woman does just as good a job as a man, and yet she's willing to work for 75 cents, you'd have only women working for you.

Speaker 2 Like, they just want to make money. They don't give a fuck about like all that DEI shit.
That's just how they can make more money. Like, what do I got to do to get a part of of this?

Speaker 2 What do I have to do to get grants? What do I have to do to

Speaker 2 get more loans? Like, what do I have to do? Like, that's all that shit is.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's, again, the problem is, is it makes everything so divisive. Yep.
Because, look, the vast majority of people...

Speaker 1 The vast majority only care about fairness. They want it to be fair or as fair as possible.

Speaker 1 And when something is so egregious and so unfair, that's where anger takes hold. That's where resentment takes hold.
And that's when people get nasty because they feel that they've been cheated.

Speaker 1 And in some cases, they have. And they go, you know what? I'm not going to take part in your game.
Your game's rigged. So, you know what? Fuck you.
Fuck your game. And this is what I'm going to do.

Speaker 1 And once that happens, you don't have conversations. You don't have good faith.
And you don't have any type of solution to the problem. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And the thing that's going to help that is psychedelics. That's where I just take it.

Speaker 2 Take it off the schedule one, you fucking dumbasses. A bunch of people that never experienced it.

Speaker 2 There's a lot of hope in the future. And I think one of the big hopes is that these kind of conversations that we have are popular.

Speaker 2 Where that wasn't even a thing 20 years ago. It was impossible to get.
If you were having a conversation about issues,

Speaker 2 it would be on television and it would be approved experts.

Speaker 2 It'd be someone who's an expert from a university or someone who's an expert from a corporation and they would be talking to you about things or someone from the government.

Speaker 2 They had full control of the narrative.

Speaker 2 They don't have that anymore. That's what's weird.
And we have it for a small amount of time before AI takes over.

Speaker 2 There's like this brief window where people have access to like real discussions and then AI is going to take over.

Speaker 3 Well, this is happening though. Like in the UK,

Speaker 3 the Conservative Party is having an election now. Like whoever wins that, we'll have them on our show and have a conversation and find out, you know, what they're all about.

Speaker 2 And by the time of the next election here and in the UK, I think this is going to be the primary vehicle if you want to get your message out there this kind of conversation well i think they're probably all going to do their own too which would behoove them you know like if someone like let's say someone like rand paul if rand paul decided to make a podcast i bet that'd be pretty fucking popular real popular like look what happened to tucker carlson after he left fox news like they fired him from fox news because they didn't like what he was talking about i don't know what the whole story was i've heard a bunch of different versions of it but the bottom line is he became way bigger.

Speaker 2 Like, if you thought he was a problem when you had him under control, when he was working for a corporation, now he can talk about whatever he wants.

Speaker 2 He's got some guy on who said he sucked Obama's dick.

Speaker 2 He sat that guy on for like an hour and a half talking about doing blow with Obama and blowing him.

Speaker 2 This is fucking nuts. I was like, what are you doing? Like, this is crazy.
But that's the kind of shit you can do if you don't have any sort of guardrails. You don't have any executives.

Speaker 2 You don't have any producers.

Speaker 1 But the thing that gives me hope, Joe, is most people, they're not going to want that. Most people, what they're going to want...

Speaker 2 But hold up. Obama sucking the guy's dick? Yeah, okay.
That guy sucking Obama's dick. A lot of people are going to want that one.

Speaker 2 Everybody likes dick sucking. Yeah, I mean, that is true.
Can you be?

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 1 It is.

Speaker 1 But I think when people are craving a middle ground.

Speaker 2 People crave that.

Speaker 1 People desire that.

Speaker 1 One of the reasons that the BBC is in free fall at the moment and they're hemorrhaging viewers and listeners and all the rest of it is because people think that they're biased and they have every right to.

Speaker 1 When people talk about the demise of the BBC, most people, they're not happy about it.

Speaker 1 They're sad because they know that it was a valuable place where people from left and right came together to debate ideas, to share ideas, and people would listen and make up their own minds.

Speaker 1 People still crave that, Joe, and that's what gives me hope, is that that's what people want.

Speaker 1 You're going to get people who want to listen to, you know, you know, I was in a gangbang with Obama or whatever it was.

Speaker 1 People are going to clip that now and whatever.

Speaker 2 But, you know,

Speaker 1 that's a fringe. But the average person is curious and they just want to hear a center ground.

Speaker 2 And they want a source that's interesting and reliable, and that's what the BBC used to be.

Speaker 2 You know, the BBC is, they put on that Attenborough documentary where we went to the Congo and

Speaker 2 the first time they ever saw chimpanzees eat monkeys. Remember that? Like, that's Attenborough.
That's BBC. The BBC had one of the best documentaries on the Congo I've ever seen in my life.

Speaker 2 It's incredible. It's like, I used to have it on VHS.
It's like multi-part, multi-part documentary on the Congo. They used to do incredible stuff.

Speaker 2 But in America, to a lesser extent, that was Vice News. Like, Vice News used to be incredible.
Vice News used to do all this really interesting stuff.

Speaker 2 And I had Shane Smith on from Vice News, who started it, used to be the head of it, and then he walked away from it, and it completely fell apart, went woke, went broke.

Speaker 3 Because he left. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, he left, and then it wasn't just that he left. It was also like, who are the people that were coming in? Right?

Speaker 2 They're these young, woke kids that are coming in from universities, and all of a sudden they had this idea of what they should be doing in journalism. And it's journalism/slash activism.

Speaker 2 And it just became bullshit. And nobody paid attention to it anymore, and it lost all its money.

Speaker 3 Well, that's why I always say, like, people love to shit on the mainstream media, as I do to some extent. But my view is we need a mainstream media, just not this one.

Speaker 2 Well, I think the way to do it is the way it's probably going to be independent mainstream media. Right.

Speaker 2 And when it stops being independent, people will give up on it and go to a real independent one.

Speaker 2 And unfortunately, there'll probably be fake independent ones that are like state-sponsored, that are trying to make it look like they're real.

Speaker 2 And they're, you got to get a bunch of CIA plants and a bunch of different intelligence agencies that are going to infiltrate podcasts. You're going to have that kind of stuff, but that's just like,

Speaker 2 you know, that's like the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping case when you have 12 different FBI informants and two people that don't know what the fuck is going on. And

Speaker 2 these are the people that are coordinating the kidnapping. It's mostly the FBI informants, which is just nuts.

Speaker 2 Things get infiltrated.

Speaker 3 But it's got to suck to be that vice guy because you build this thing and it's working and it's great.

Speaker 2 Not just that, he went broke. Wow.
I mean, not broke, broke, but I think he lost a billion dollars. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Maybe more. Wow.
You know, nuts.

Speaker 1 You know, it's, but it, but again, I come back to it, which is like

Speaker 1 there is so much potential now. There is so much space.
And if you are one of those journalists, and look, let's be honest as well. We've all got our biases.
Everyone here has got a biases.

Speaker 2 Not me, mate.

Speaker 3 I'm perfectly neutral.

Speaker 2 But everyone's got what they think.

Speaker 1 But if you do and you're open about it, people accept that. People go, you know, okay, you know, Joe's, you know, whatever Joe is, I'm whatever you, Constantine is whatever he is.

Speaker 1 But they will be far more accepting of that because you are honest, you are authentic. It's like David Mammet said, words that come from the heart go to the heart.

Speaker 1 And if you are prepared to have that honest conversation whilst admitting that this is what you think and this is what you believe, that is a far richer, more fulfilling experience for the viewer or the listener than someone just giving out talking points and saying, I agree, because that rapidly gets very boring.

Speaker 1 There's an audience for it, but you know, back and forth and the cut and thrust, and hang on, you said this, but you're getting, that's, I love watching that. I love listening to that.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, real honest discourse is fascinating, especially by two intelligent people that have different perspectives.

Speaker 2 It's fascinating because you say this guy's obviously very smart, and this person's obviously very smart, and they're talking, and you get a chance to see, like, what, how do you come to your conclusions are you willing to admit that other people have points like or are you just steamrolling them when they question you about something that's contradictory about the way you think like how are you thinking and I think we all learn by watching other people think and discuss things absolutely but the difference is this is where the medium is the message point really applies is that takes a lot of time yeah take any issue that's that's in any way controversial the idea that you can the reason issues are controversial is that people don't agree That's what controversial means, right?

Speaker 3 People don't agree. People have different perspectives.
The reason they have different perspectives,

Speaker 3 is that that is an issue which is difficult to have consensus on.

Speaker 3 That means that issue is so complicated, you cannot discuss it in five minutes.

Speaker 3 It's going to take hours. And really, it's going to take, you know, sometimes it's going to take years of research to come to a conclusion about certain things.

Speaker 3 The idea that you can adjudicate that through the medium of two people having a bust-up on a show show where they're just it's optimized for anger and outrage that's ridiculous that's not how you get to the truth the way you get to the truth is you take your time and you have a conversation yeah and that's why I think we keep using that word hope but that's why I do have hope as you say before AI takes over that that format allows I'm not saying that's the only way these conversations go so there are a lot of dumb shit there's a lot of dumb shit being said on podcasts all the time as well but there is the space for that kind of conversation as well and that that is good yeah podcasts are a lot like twitter conversations it's a lot of dumb shit a lot of dumb shit but a lot of good shit too right yeah yeah and that's very similar in that they're both kind of unregulated yeah and it but it's important that you hear dumb shit it's important it's it's really important that you hear it and also it's why i believe you know i hate political correctness because it it stops conversations from happening or what it does is it means like like take immigration if like you say or if if you say this point of view, that's racist, you're only going to talk about 70% of the problem.

Speaker 1 You're not going to talk about this 30% here. If you don't talk about this 30% here because it's politically incorrect, you are never going to solve the problem.

Speaker 1 Because the only way to solve the problem is to talk about every facet of the problem.

Speaker 1 And if you're not going to approach that 30%, we ain't ever going to come to a solution.

Speaker 3 And that's when you get riots, like we had in the UK. That's how that happens.
Yeah. When you try and suppress the discussion, that's what happens.
And you guys don't have guns. And we don't have.

Speaker 3 Thank fuck we don't have guns because it's getting pretty heated, man.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I've seen some stuff. It seems wild over there, man.
It is.

Speaker 2 You know, the real fear if Trump wins is civil discourse

Speaker 2 or civil unrest, rather, in this country. A lot of people are scared of that because they remember what happened when he won in 2016.

Speaker 2 You know, and there was some of it that was real peaceful, like the women's march. There was no violence at the women's march to speak of.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm sure there was some, but it wasn't like the BLM marches. The BLM marches were crazy.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 3 Do you think that's going to happen if he wins?

Speaker 2 I think there's a certain amount of that that's coordinated, and I think there's a certain amount of that that

Speaker 2 they do to initiate civil unrest to

Speaker 2 further their political goals. I think there's a certain amount of that that's real.
I think that's always been the case. There's always been agent provocateurs

Speaker 2 that go into peaceful protests protests and start smashing things so the cops can come in and

Speaker 2 shut everything down. And then there was during the BLM, I'm sure you saw during some of the

Speaker 2 protests and riots that there was these bricks that were just left everywhere. Did you see that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, there was at some places there was pallets of bricks that were just left in the middle of the course of where these protests would be. Didn't make any sense.
Like, why is this there?

Speaker 2 And there was all these conspiracy theories, and there's all these people that are absolutely dismissing the conspiracy theories. I'm like, why would you dismiss it?

Speaker 2 Do you think that some people benefit from civil unrest? They certainly do.

Speaker 2 If you wanted to get the public riled up and get, well, you just start smashing things and lighting them on fire and give people this feeling that they can do that.

Speaker 3 That was a wild time, man. Crazy time, man.
That was a wild. And a lot of the people who were right at the front of that cheerleading it on from the sidelines, it's like what they did with Joe Biden.

Speaker 3 Like, yesterday, he was the leader of the free world, this perfect guy. He's He's got no cognitive issues, and then tomorrow, bam, he's done.

Speaker 2 Well, the defund the police stuff. You know, that was all that was all about, defunding the police.
Are you out of your fucking mind?

Speaker 2 Do you, you don't know jack shit about police work, and you're saying to defund the police. But even some people that knew about it were using it as a political tool.

Speaker 2 Kamala Harris was saying, defund the police. Totally.

Speaker 3 Would you ask her about that if she comes to the point?

Speaker 2 Sure, sure. Yeah, I'd ask her about changing perspectives.
I think it's important that people change perspectives. Like, people say, oh, they flip-flopped.
Well, that's probably good. That means

Speaker 2 maybe they were faced with better evidence and they realized they were incorrect. I would rather have that than someone stick to some stupid, erroneous idea forever.

Speaker 3 The real question is, did they actually change their mind?

Speaker 2 Right. That's

Speaker 2 are they just a politician? Like, some people are car salesmen. Some people tell you, you need the undercarriage protection.
You need that undercarriage protection.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 it's very important.

Speaker 1 And it's also the way they marketed that. They were like, this is a left-wing idea.
I'm telling you right now, people who are poor want police.

Speaker 1 If you live in a poor, deprived area with high rates of crime, you want police.

Speaker 1 You don't want a drug dealer

Speaker 1 on your selling crack. You don't want armed gangs roaming around.
You want them to come and protect your family.

Speaker 1 So the idea that we're going to get rid of police, and all of a sudden, all the rapists are going to go, you know what, mate? Decide not for me.

Speaker 2 Well, there was also so many weird ways to handle the riots. Like, one of the things they did in New York City is just let people do whatever they wanted to do and let it burn out.

Speaker 2 Which is,

Speaker 2 apparently, that was

Speaker 2 a way that people theorized that was the best way to deal with civil unrest way back into the 60s. But it was proven to not be correct.

Speaker 2 Like, it's not a good idea because it encourages people to do more shit.

Speaker 3 You've got kids, Joe. Yes.
If your kids are running riot,

Speaker 3 do you let it just burn out?

Speaker 2 No. Fuck no.
No.

Speaker 2 Well, especially when people, look, if you're in New York, like I'm sure you saw like Sacks Fifth Avenue, all these different stores that got their windows smashed and people just stole millions of dollars worth of shit.

Speaker 2 Smashed, destroyed, lit things on fire. Like, why would you ever want to come back to that city? Why would you ever want to have a business there?

Speaker 2 You're going to kill the businesses that keep people coming to the city and help the economy? That's insanity.

Speaker 1 It's dispiriting. It's actually dispiriting.
And because when you saw those events happening, you just felt like I was watching and going, what is happening? What is happening to society?

Speaker 1 Because every time someone commits a crime and they get away with it and you see it, it has a demoralizing effect on you because you think, hang on a minute, I work hard, I pay tax, I do all of this, and you're allowed to just go around, roam scot-free, nick all the stuff,

Speaker 1 and then there's no repercussions for it. So why am I taking part in a system which is effectively punishing punishing me?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's disheartening. That's the best way to put it.
I got to pee real quick. We'll do that.
We'll come back. I'll do that too.
Cool.

Speaker 2 Much better. Can't concentrate when I have to be.
It's impossible.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 That is so true. The moment you meet, it's, I remember doing a gig at the Edinburgh Festival, and the crowd were just awful.
They just weren't going for anything. And I was like, why is this?

Speaker 1 And one of the comedians turned around to me. It was raining outside.
I'm like, so? He went, they've all got wet socks.

Speaker 1 You can't be happy when you've got

Speaker 2 wet socks on. Maybe you should have tried some hate speech.

Speaker 2 Didn't the guy get arrested in Ireland because he refused to call a boy a girl in class? Yeah, he's a teacher, a teacher.

Speaker 2 They literally put him in jail, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 How long is he in jail for?

Speaker 1 It's been a while. It's been a while.

Speaker 2 That's dystopian. That is, that's really crazy.

Speaker 3 but it's the logical conclusion of this hate speech bullshit, right? Jail if it's hate speech, then you have to prosecute it. If you prosecute it, you have to punish people.

Speaker 3 If to punish people, how do you punish people? You put them in a fucking cage.

Speaker 2 Fucking crazy.

Speaker 1 And it's also as well, it's that whole safetyism issue, which is we need to keep people safe.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and if words are violence, that's another one.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and if somebody is going around spreading hate speech, he's making people unsafe.

Speaker 2 Even if they just feel unsafe, Francis, they feel unsafe. They feel unsafe.
Yeah. They feel unsafe.

Speaker 1 And that's what it's all about. You've made me feel unsafe.
Therefore, I am unsafe. And what do we need to do about that?

Speaker 1 You need to be got rid of. You can't have it here.

Speaker 2 Not just that, but you set a massive example to anybody else. You step out of line.
We're going to put you in a cage. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it's time to start calling boys, girls, or girls, boys, or whatever the fuck we tell you to. It's just completely illogical.

Speaker 4 It says he was jailed because he broke like a trespassing. order kind of for not for going back there when they told him not to that would be the third time though right

Speaker 2 yeah so they tell him to go back to the school?

Speaker 4 Yeah, he went back to the school to talk to people or something, and that's what he got arrested for.

Speaker 2 So he got fired. Why?

Speaker 2 He was not arrested for his position on transgender pronouns as claimed in misleading social media posts.

Speaker 2 Social media users shared a video of Burke's arrest outside the school September 2nd where he's heard saying, I have a right to work here, I have a right to be here, not to tell students that they need to take puberty blockers.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

Speaker 3 But Jamie, this is the third time, though. What was he arrested for initially? Because that's really kind of what we're talking about.

Speaker 2 Scroll down at the bottom, though. Let me hear what it says more.
It says there,

Speaker 2 other people off camera also say you're arresting him because you won't endorse gender, transgender ideology. And Inok Burke, teacher being arrested for not accepting transgenderism.

Speaker 2 People circulating the clip online suggest Burke was arrested for his views, with some writing, breaking Irish police arrest teacher Inoch Burke for not endorsing trans ideology.

Speaker 2 So was he fired for not that? Terms of injunction that instructs him to stay away from the school.

Speaker 3 So he must have been fired for that and then he refused to just leave and so he kept coming back and then they arrested him I mean you know no but that said he was arrested for a third time yeah so I'm guessing the previous two arrests might not have been for trespassing they might have been for things that he'd said well let's find that out that'd be worth checking you'll find that out yeah yeah it's you know

Speaker 1 this is the thing that I find the most egregious is when you get kids involved because the thing is with kids kids don't know. They don't understand the concept, a lot of them,

Speaker 1 especially at a young age, of gender. So, and they're very impressionable of children.

Speaker 2 Of course they are.

Speaker 1 So you can pump them full of this stuff and eventually they can believe it. They're not like adults who go, hang on a minute, mate.
The old kid is,

Speaker 1 but the majority of them are highly suggestible. That's why children have parents, because they're not capable of making their own choices.
It really is that simple. That's why there's teachers.

Speaker 1 That's why there's, you know, there's adult leaders.

Speaker 1 So they go to them. You are not capable of making this decision because your brain is not mature enough.
It is not developed enough. I am an adult.
I will be the one making your choices.

Speaker 1 And then when you get to whatever age, 18, 21, depending on the thing, then you can go off and you can live your life and you can do whatever you want. Until then, I am the one in charge.

Speaker 1 And to this idea that then you then let something as huge as this, where there's going to be medical intervention and surgeries. I'm going to call it what it is, Joe.
That's child abuse.

Speaker 1 It's child abuse.

Speaker 2 At least they've stopped it in the UK in terms of the surgeries and the puberty blockers.

Speaker 4 Sort of describing more, but it's still like he said he didn't want to call the student they, so they told him administrative leave and he kept coming back to the school.

Speaker 2 Okay. They put him on.

Speaker 2 So that's what it is.

Speaker 2 Instructed staff that a pupil who was transitioning to another gender wished to be referred to to by a new name and the pronouns they, a change supported by the pupil's parents.

Speaker 2 Burke from Castle Barr, County, Mayo, who teaches history, refused, citing his religious beliefs.

Speaker 2 The school put Burke on paid administrative leave after he allegedly confronted the principal at a public event and questioned her in a heated manner, a claim Burke denies.

Speaker 2 After Burke continued to attend the school, it obtained a court order barring him from the campus. He continued to show up, prompting his jailing for contempt of court.
Right.

Speaker 3 So it sounds like a guy making a stand, basically.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, and you know what's even more nuts about this? Ireland's a Catholic country.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Ireland is a country that with Muhammad being the number one name for young boys.

Speaker 1 In Ireland. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 As the number one name for boys. I mean, the Catholic faith has changed a lot since Ireland.

Speaker 2 A lot of people moved there.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But you know what?

Speaker 2 As well, it's find that statistic because that statistic's crazy, yeah.

Speaker 4 I typed it in and it didn't pop up right away, so I don't know.

Speaker 3 There might be a way in which it is, but maybe it's number two, maybe it's number two.

Speaker 2 I think it was number one for young boys in like one of the most recent years.

Speaker 3 I hope they're not calling the girls that

Speaker 2 that would be so cruel. You can't even draw her, yeah, but yeah, it's maybe in one city, it says in Ireland in Galway City, is it Galloway? Galway,

Speaker 4 Galway, yeah, that's what pops up up when I typed in Mohammed on top of it. It said Ryan's the number one name in Ireland.

Speaker 2 Brian? Ryan, R.I. Brian.

Speaker 2 Ryan, lad. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But, you know, this again is what gives me hope, Joe, is that especially in the UK, we have fought really long and hard against this stuff. There was a report done by

Speaker 1 one of the most important pediatricians called Dr. Cass, and the Cass report.
And it basically took a bulldozer to all of this crap.

Speaker 1 To all of it. And you go, this is what we can do if we just start challenging.
And we go, no, boys cannot become girls. Girls cannot become boys.

Speaker 1 That doesn't mean that if somebody is having gender dysphoria,

Speaker 1 have therapy. Talk to them.
Help them. Of course, all of this thing.
We need to look at the reasons why girls are wanting to transition in their droves. Why is this?

Speaker 1 Particularly 40% of girls who are wanting to transition, they've got autism. We need to talk about this.
We need to investigate it, and we need to help these kids.

Speaker 1 But just giving puberty blockers and sending them on the stream to essentially have their life medicalized for the rest of time, that ain't a solution.

Speaker 2 And it's profitable, which is even scarier. So once these

Speaker 2 institutions become established and start making money off of it, they want to continue to.

Speaker 3 Well, that's why I think we're ahead of the US in the UK, because we don't have that profit motive to do it.

Speaker 3 Do you think, I was going to ask you, do you think we've reached peak work, Joe? Do you think we're past it now? Do you think we've turned the tide?

Speaker 2 It's still here. I mean, it's like we killed off most of the wolves, but there's still a lot.

Speaker 2 I think it's always going to be a thing that people ascribe to. There's always going to be a thing that people join up with because it's very

Speaker 2 aggressive. in the ideology and people like aggressive things.
Just like Nazis never really went away.

Speaker 2 There's just like way less of them you know like when you get on twitter today you could still find some real nazis which is kind of crazy because you would have thought after 45 ah we hit peak nazi you know it's over but it's not it's there's always going to be woke people there's always going to be crazy ridiculous people that take things to the extreme in the 60s it was the weather underground you know you're always going to have people that are out of their fucking mind you're always going to have antifa you're always going to have something like that where people believe the most extreme version of something because it gives them meaning.

Speaker 2 And it's a group you could just join. Anybody can join.
And then you start fighting for it because those other people are the downfall of civilization.

Speaker 3 You know, I wonder about that online stuff because based on what I see, I don't see it reflected in normal day-to-day life. And we had Ashley St.
Clair on our show last time we were in the U.S.

Speaker 3 And she was talking about all these idiots running around going, repeal the 19th. You've heard this bullshit.

Speaker 3 And she said at the time, she said, a lot of this is foreign influence. And I was like, oh, okay, I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 3 And then you had this tenant media thing. Did you follow this? What is that? Tenant media.
It was a lot of

Speaker 2 tenant media.

Speaker 3 Yeah, did you follow that?

Speaker 2 Not much.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so it was basically the Russian government, through various proxies, gave $10 million to people in America. I think it was Lauren Chen and her husband's company.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's right.

Speaker 3 That was what.

Speaker 2 So what was going on with that? Were they saying positive things about Russia?

Speaker 3 I don't think from what I've seen, I may be wrong about this, I didn't see any evidence that any of the influencers who ended up being paid were like on the payroll to do specific things.

Speaker 2 Do you think it's valuable to them to give the money just so they can kind of, those people can be dismissed?

Speaker 3 It's so that those people can pollute the space, right? If everyone thinks the right wants to repeal women's right to vote,

Speaker 3 that divides society and it creates chaos. Like when I see all these Nazis talking online, I don't see that reflect.
Like we went to the Trump rally, None of them were there.

Speaker 3 Every time Israel got mentioned, there was a big cheer. You know what I mean? So I don't see that reflected in reality.
And I wonder how many of those thousands of likes and retweets are real.

Speaker 2 Right. That's a factor.

Speaker 2 Did you see the thing that happened at the Trump boat rally in Florida where a Nazi boat pulled up and they had like swastikas and everything and the whole deal and with masks on and everybody just started hosing them?

Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Get the fuck out of here because it's a kind of agent provocateur type deal where you probably have someone, some group that wants to make all the Trump people look like Nazis.

Speaker 2 So they show up and then I saw media outlets report on it. Like the Nazi flags were seen at the Trump rally.
Yeah, which is.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's a great point, but the thing we always focus on with the right is the far right, and we should focus on them, and we should talk about them.

Speaker 1 We never talk about the far left and communism. Right.
And, you know, people on, like, I'm Venezuelan.

Speaker 1 There were people in the Labour Party eulogizing Chavez around about 2005 at the same time as he was putting my relatives in jail.

Speaker 1 And then they were just there going, and then they've all moved on and they've disappeared like butterflies in the wind and no one addresses it anymore. And everyone's like, oh, well, that's fine.

Speaker 1 And you go, so where's the consistency?

Speaker 1 If you're going to hold the right to account and you should

Speaker 1 hold the right to account, you've got to hold your own side to account with people who are like, well, communism was never tried. And you're going, I think it was, mate.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Just wasn't tried right.

Speaker 3 Well, the reason I ask you.

Speaker 2 Those kids in Brooklyn never figured out. Yeah.

Speaker 3 The reason I ask you about Peak Woke is I heard Rahm Emmanuel, remember he was Obama's chief of staff, Mayor of Chicago. He was on Sam Harris's podcast.

Speaker 3 And they had a very interesting conversation where people in the center of the left, they are backtracking on wokeness and quickly. They're like, oh, that was just a moment.
Yeah, we let some crazy.

Speaker 3 That's kind of how they're talking about it.

Speaker 2 Is that where Sam's at right now?

Speaker 3 No, I don't know about sam sam was i think sam was uber anti-woke he always has been and he was pushing emmanuel to kind of go why doesn't kamala harris come out and say look i went along with all this woke like many of us did right that was a moment we you know you know i was wrong about that we're not talking about that now we're talking about make america better make america richer like why doesn't why doesn't why don't those people just draw a line under it and say that was a mistake that and a lot of people on the center left now are awake to this moment, I think.

Speaker 3 Excuse me, that's why I asked you, because this does seem to be something happening.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Something's happening, and I think it was inevitable because so much of what people are dealing with is just stupid. And there's so much pushback against it.
And that's what Trump represents.

Speaker 2 That's what

Speaker 2 the reason why there were 75,000 people outside of Madison Square Garden, and the place was overflowing with humans. That's what it represents.
Like, people are tired of being badgered.

Speaker 2 They're tired of being lectured to. They're tired of being told what to think and what to say and what to believe.
And they don't like it.

Speaker 2 They don't like that this one party is keep talking about change, but they've been in control for 12 out of the past, or is it 12 out of the past? No, 14 out of the past 16 years. That's crazy.

Speaker 2 How can you be talking about change? You know, they're tired of it. They want something to be different that makes them feel like there's hope.

Speaker 3 And they're also tired of being called bad people. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Because at the end of the day left and right they're both half the fucking country right right so you can't run a country by claiming that half the country is evil and and in some way you can't you can't do that about the right you can't do that about the left look the people that on the right they are the firefighters and the police officers and the soldiers it's stereotypically speaking of course there's left-wing fire you know what i mean yeah right

Speaker 3 you're gonna run a country without firefighters and police right you're gonna run a country without soldiers right i mean you tried running a country without police mate yeah it it doesn't work very well, right?

Speaker 3 And likewise, you need also the more creatively minded people who are on the left and who run administrative shit and other kinds of things.

Speaker 3 You need both sides to realize in this country, you're all Americans. In our country, you're all British.
Like, you want to be tribal, go for it.

Speaker 3 But let's agree we're all one and then we can go be tribal against China or whatever.

Speaker 2 We need someone who's a leader who can articulate that, that's a part of one of the major parties, who can say that and sort of unite people. And you're not getting that from either side.

Speaker 2 Either side is, the other side is stupid and they're ridiculous. They're going to be the downfall of us.
And this is a dumb person. This is an evil person.

Speaker 2 There's no uniting.

Speaker 2 It should be...

Speaker 2 I don't think you have to do it that way. I really don't.

Speaker 2 Because I think if somebody just avoided all that stuff and just focused entirely on the good things that are possible if we all work together, everybody is not going to listen to their opponent who's constantly shitting on them.

Speaker 2 If this one person is shitting on the other person relentlessly and the other person doesn't even respond to it, just talks about what they want to do, that person looks really stupid and petty.

Speaker 2 But as soon as you engage, now you're just like them. And now it's like, I had to hit them back.
Like, do you? Do you really?

Speaker 2 How about just say what you think you can do and say what needs to be done and how you're going to do it?

Speaker 1 And I think this is a reason why we

Speaker 1 in the UK have made far greater strides with

Speaker 1 the whole medical intervention with children issue is because it's not really a political issue.

Speaker 1 People on the left have spoken out against it and people on the right and the people like heroes like J.K. Rowling.

Speaker 1 And the moment you get people like that talking about it on both sides, people are then able to listen because it's someone from their side who they think is inverted comma is a good person going, oh, she's talking about it.

Speaker 2 Somebody see the thing that she tweeted about the puberty blocker study that they wouldn't release? Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's so crazy.

Speaker 2 They made a puberty blocker study. They found out it doesn't help the kids.
No. It doesn't help their mental health.
And they thought that it would embolden the other side.

Speaker 2 So they decided not to release it. So you found out that it's bad for kids.
You don't want people to know that it's bad for kids. And she wrote, so you could keep doing terrible things to kids.

Speaker 1 You know, and then.

Speaker 3 But again, it just shouldn't be a partisan issue, right?

Speaker 2 Of course, especially with children. Jesus Christ, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 Also, the thing in the UK, you guys have socialized medicine. Yeah.
So there's not this giant machine behind it the way it is here. The other thing about America is advertisement.

Speaker 2 So this is one of two countries in the world where pharmaceutical drug companies can advertise. And that's not good.
That's clearly not good.

Speaker 2 We're fucking full-on captured by them and the amount of money that they can make. And then the whole system behind them is so deeply ingrained in money.

Speaker 2 You know, it's just, they've got their hooks in deep in politics and television and media. They got their hooks in deep, and that's not good.

Speaker 2 And that's why you can have these conversations in America and medical stuff gets connected to left or right wing.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 the great thing is, with America, is your First Amendment. You're so lucky to have that, Joe.

Speaker 1 You're so lucky that you don't have what we have where people, where politicians are openly talking about we need to tackle Islamophobia.

Speaker 1 You know, and you go, I was talking to a very, very senior member of the of the police. He came to one of my gigs.
And then we've got the tube home.

Speaker 1 And this is a very, very senior guy, deals with government. And I go to him, how long do you think until we have hate speech laws

Speaker 1 in England? Because Scotland has a different legal system. And he went, probably two to two and a half years.

Speaker 2 And the

Speaker 1 and the fact.

Speaker 1 And the fact that that in this guy was just very matter of fact about it made me made made me realize that we're in trouble.

Speaker 1 We're in trouble because if the government comes in and starts legislating and starts clamping down, that's when you're living under authoritarian regime and under authoritarian rule.

Speaker 1 But the fact you have this free speech amendment, and you've said it yourself, if you don't believe in free speech, you're not American, that... That is such a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 This is the way people have to look at it. You would think that stopping hate speech would be a good thing.
And it would. It would be great if everybody voluntarily stopped using hate speech.

Speaker 2 It would be wonderful.

Speaker 2 But as soon as you can define hate speech in as simple a terms as calling someone by their original name when they've decided to change genders, like if you don't want to be Francis anymore, but I insist on calling you Francis, and you can put me in jail for that, that's really crazy.

Speaker 2 And it's dangerous because it's just control.

Speaker 2 And you can't allow that kind of control to be in the hands of any government body where because of the words out of your mouth, they can now put you in a cage. That's a crazy precedent to set.

Speaker 2 Forget it, put yourself outside of who's right or who's wrong and just think about the concept of the words that you say, an opinion that you espouse can put you in a cage.

Speaker 2 You don't ever want to give the government that because that can keep moving.

Speaker 2 That definition of what is hate can keep moving.

Speaker 2 It can keep moving to a really ridiculous place, which I think it is if you're doing things like gender identity, especially if someone decides, like if Admiral Levine, that person, that Rachel Levine person, if you can't say, hey, that looks like a guy, if you can't say that and you get in jail, now you're getting locked up for what?

Speaker 2 For accurate observations, this is nuts. And it's dangerous because once you set a precedent, then they can keep moving that further and further down the line.

Speaker 2 They attach you to a social credit score system, and then they decide whether or not you can buy groceries. And now they can kind of dictate your behavior and the way you talk and think.

Speaker 2 And now we're in 1984. Legit.

Speaker 3 And you don't have to even be a genius to understand this.

Speaker 3 If you look at history, look at all the societies where speech is heavily restricted. You would not want to live in any of those places.

Speaker 2 And you don't get any creativity.

Speaker 2 You miss out on everything that it is to be an American. You miss out on all the cool.
This is like the,

Speaker 2 in terms of like entertainment, how much entertainment comes out of the United States that the world consumes in terms of music, comedy, movies, a giant percentage of the world's entertainment comes out of right here Because you have the ability to freely express yourself.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and that's the reason Hollywood's in the doldrums now because they don't have the ability to freely express themselves.

Speaker 2 You know who doesn't get fucked with? Rappers.

Speaker 2 They can still get wild. They get wild.

Speaker 2 They get fucking wild. They still do.
They say crazy shit in rap songs that you could never get away with in any kind of rock and roll song. or a pop song.
You know?

Speaker 2 That Mexican OT, you know, you know who that guy is? I have that dude in here. He's awesome.
He's hilarious. But he's got this song.
He's like, lately I've been fucking

Speaker 2 The rap is ridiculous. It's so crazy, but it's like that old school, braggadocious, fun kind of like music.
Again, entertainment. He's a wonderful guy.
I mean, he's a really nice guy. Very cool.

Speaker 2 Very cool dude. Very fun.
But it's an art form. It's an art form, just like death metal is an art form.
It's like a kind

Speaker 2 people like different shit. And rap, for whatever reason, has gotten a pass because people are scared of being called racists.

Speaker 1 That's black privilege.

Speaker 2 More Mexican privilege

Speaker 2 for this guy's case.

Speaker 3 They should have had him open the Trump Radio Center.

Speaker 2 That would have been amazing. That would have been amazing.

Speaker 2 I think he performed in front of Andrew Schultz's special. Yeah.
I think he did.

Speaker 2 Or at least Andrew used his song.

Speaker 1 I mean, what they did to Andrew was wild as well. Did you find that?

Speaker 2 I thought it was fascinating. But again, had the opposite effect.
Yeah. You know, so that was this Brooklyn theater.

Speaker 2 They found out right after he did the Trump podcast, three hours later, they pulled his special. Like, he was supposed to be filming a special there.

Speaker 2 He'd already done a walkthrough of the theater, like, approved the theater. They were going to sell tickets, and they pulled it.

Speaker 2 And it's just a political thing.

Speaker 1 Well, what are the, what,

Speaker 3 what do they, these, I'm assuming, business people, right? Yeah. What the fuck do they think they're achieving by doing? Are they think they're gonna

Speaker 3 be business special?

Speaker 2 Yeah, they think, well, no, they know he'll do it somewhere else.

Speaker 2 He's big enough where it doesn't matter. Andrew can do anything.
You know, he's huge. So he could go anywhere else.
Anybody, every other place would be happy to have him.

Speaker 2 But they take a stand, you know?

Speaker 3 They're signaling to their audience.

Speaker 2 Yes, they're signaling to their community that people don't feel safe, you know, because it's, it's, but it's, you know.

Speaker 2 It has the opposite effect. It just makes Andrew bigger.
People find out about it. They get outraged.
They can't wait to get tickets for his new place.

Speaker 2 So now he's going to go to a new place that's bigger and better. And

Speaker 2 the special will be even bigger. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 He's an undeniable guy.

Speaker 2 There's certain people that are just undeniable forces. They're undeniably talented.
And they'll find a way through all this stupid shit. Tony's one of them.
He's undeniable.

Speaker 2 He'll make his way through this and be better than ever.

Speaker 2 This attacking that they did with Andrew just was so ineffective, and it just made him bigger. But it wasn't really attacking.

Speaker 2 They just said they don't want to be a part of it, which I guess if it's your fucking theater and you just have this decision and you want to do it and it's not really going to harm him.

Speaker 2 It's just going to, if you understand the publicity effect,

Speaker 2 what it's going to do is the opposite. It's going to make this person who just interviewed Trump even more popular.
Like, go have at it.

Speaker 3 Did you have a lot of pushback after you had Trump on?

Speaker 2 I have no idea. I don't pay attention.

Speaker 3 That's the smart thing to do.

Speaker 2 That's the only way to do it. I've adopted that a long time ago, and I wasn't going to change it for Trump, for the Trump Trump interview.

Speaker 2 I'm not paying attention. I don't know.

Speaker 1 But figures like Andrew and Tony are really important for the culture because they send a very, very strong message to everybody else. You are not going to cancel me.
You are not going to win.

Speaker 1 And in fact, the tactics that you use to try and suppress me, to try and stifle me, all they're going to do is make me better, bigger, and stronger.

Speaker 1 And that's such a beautiful message to send out to everybody. Just go, you know what? You tried to stop me.

Speaker 1 All you're doing is making me even more powerful.

Speaker 2 I think people are realizing that now. I think it really worked back in the day.
Like, you could cancel some people back in the day. There's some people that have been legit, like Milo.

Speaker 2 He got legitimately canceled. Remember, that guy used to be on, he was on Bill Maher's show.
He was everywhere. He was always, these videos, he would sit down.
I had him on the podcast.

Speaker 2 The guy was great. Back in the day, Bill Maher actually compared him to Christopher Hitchens and everybody was like, shut the fuck up.
They were mad.

Speaker 2 He was like, funny, articulate, gay guy with a bit of a drug problem that is a Republican. And everyone's like, what the fuck are we going to do with this?

Speaker 2 And for him, it was a great avenue to get through. And so wildly popular.
They remove him from Twitter. They remove him from everything.
They remove him from YouTube. And he kind of goes away.

Speaker 3 What did he say?

Speaker 2 Well, he talked about his own experiences as an underage man.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's what I was saying. So it sounded like he was kind of condoning.

Speaker 2 He was kind of condoned.

Speaker 2 And he was was kind of saying it, not just on my podcast, but there was another podcast where he talked about these men becoming like mentors to young gay boys and that it actually helps them.

Speaker 2 And everybody's like, you're talking about pedophilia.

Speaker 3 The Greek model, right? That's what the Greeks used to do.

Speaker 2 It's considered different.

Speaker 2 You know, when you think about man to boy who is a gay boy versus man to heterosexual girl, like people get much more offended at the idea of a grown man and a young girl that's heterosexual.

Speaker 2 Then that's molesting. Whereas with a lot of gay guys, and I'm not saying this is right, but their attitude is this is what they wanted when they were 14.

Speaker 2 Like that's what Milo said, like, I was a predator. That's literally what he said on the podcast.
Believe me, I was the predator. Like, it's like ridiculous, but that's his experience.

Speaker 2 And he was talking about it, and they were like, that's all we needed. And like, this guy is defending pedophilia, and they went after him.

Speaker 2 And that was back in the day when Twitter was solely controlled by the left. And you could cancel a guy like that.
And it was effective.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I remember a lot of arguments when people were trying to de-platform people, like when they de-platformed Trump and there was a few other people that got deep.

Speaker 2 They were saying deplatforming works. This is what's been shown.
Deplatforming works.

Speaker 2 Right, for a little while, but you fucking idiots.

Speaker 2 It's actually going to, if someone crazy like Elon comes along and has the money to back it up and says, I'm going to step in and I'm I'm going to make a Wild West Twitter.

Speaker 2 Like they had talked about doing two, like when I had Jack on the podcast, he was talking about doing two versions of Twitter, doing a regulated, moderated Twitter and then a Wild West Twitter.

Speaker 2 And I was like, when's a Wild West Twitter?

Speaker 2 And that's what Elon did. He opened up a Wild West Twitter.

Speaker 2 Dude, there's some shit that I find on Twitter. I'm like, what?

Speaker 2 Like, this is not. And they're doing a pretty good job of hiding that where you got to click through to see some of the more egregious things that people say.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I mean, the problem is as well, is that you de-platform, there's going to be somebody out there who's going to go, you know what? We're going to build a platform.

Speaker 2 Right. But you know what they did with those platforms? They infiltrated those platforms with hate.
Right.

Speaker 2 So like if maybe reasonable right-wing people decided to leave and start their own thing, you saw these bots that would go to these unregulated places and say the most outrageous, horrible shit.

Speaker 2 And they might not even be real people.

Speaker 2 And according to, we've talked about this many times, but according to an FBI analyst who was examining Twitter and the interactions on Twitter, his estimation was it could be as high as 80% bots.

Speaker 2 So if you try to open up, whether it's Truth Social or just pick a name, Gab. Gab had a problem with that.
You just get bombarded by bots who are trying to ruin your company, right?

Speaker 2 And whether that's the government or whether it's competing social media companies, like if there's no laws about this, if there's no laws about creating bots and you're running, you know, whatever it is, threads, and then this other thing opens up and you go, you know what?

Speaker 2 Let's fill that place up with Nazis. And you just start having these computers that you have connected to all these accounts just posting the worst shit possible.

Speaker 2 Michelle Obama's got a dick and the White House is filled with pedophiles. And you just like flood it with craziness and now nobody wants to go there.

Speaker 2 you go there and you're looking for like a reasonable republican conservative social media platform that you could join and you could talk about things that are bothering you you can't even go there yeah and what they did is in the case of parlor is that they then shut it down and they pulled the plug

Speaker 3 yeah right yeah perfect example right now you don't have this right-wing version of this thing well this is one one thing i'm really hoping elon gets to because he's been kind of busy as we know and i think him taking over twitter is fucking awesome awesome.

Speaker 3 It's really opened up a lot of things that needed opening up. But one of the things you talked about early on is bots.

Speaker 3 And I feel like there's probably a lot more work to do on that. So when they get around to that,

Speaker 3 that would make Twitter better. Because I do hear from a lot of people who are just like, I'm glad it's more open now.
But every time I open my for you thing, it's like, fuck.

Speaker 2 But the thing is, it's like, okay, if you decided that the way to eliminate bots is to require ID,

Speaker 2 this is where it gets weird because there's data breaches. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 2 So if you're posting something under Skippy McCoy69, you got some crazy fake name, and then all of a sudden it gets revealed that this is you and maybe you work in a right-wing office and you're posting something about abortion rights and people just decide, let's get rid of that fucking guy because now we know it's you.

Speaker 2 So that's complicated.

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 People have been fired from things they posted on Reddit where there's shit posting.

Speaker 2 Shit posting on Reddit is a lot like talking shit when you don't mean it in a group chat. You're just saying ridiculous.
Like Ari Shafir says the most horrendous things, bro. He doesn't mean it.

Speaker 2 Ari's a great guy. He's saying something because it's funny to say.

Speaker 2 And when you stop that because you can go and investigate who this person is, people say things they don't mean just because they want to get a rise out of people because they're bored.

Speaker 2 And they're like an anonymous person. They'll say horrible shit.
They'll come up with a horrible meme. Are we really going to fire these people?

Speaker 2 Are they going to lose their livelihood for something that is just, for them, it's like sport almost?

Speaker 3 Definitely not. But what I'm saying is, to the extent that foreign governments are interfering with what we think is the truth and what we think is the real conversation,

Speaker 3 to the extent that other nefarious actors are trying to manipulate views, clicks, etc., that's a big fucking problem.

Speaker 2 It's a big fucking problem, and it's a problem that doesn't seem to be addressed at all. No.

Speaker 2 And we don't even know how many people are involved in this because it's so difficult if you're going through a VPN and you've got a computer bank and you've got these people that look real, because you can, now you can make artificial photos of families.

Speaker 2 You can make you could decide, I want a black woman and a Chinese man, and this is their family, and AI, I want you to create their kids.

Speaker 2 And so, you can have all these posts on Instagram, like, oh, you can follow these people over the years. It's all bullshit, and that's so easy to do now.

Speaker 2 And you could do it on Twitter, it's way more easy because nobody even wants to see pictures of you.

Speaker 2 So, you could have a bunch of posts about things that happened to you during the day to make you look like a real person, and just Nazi shit.

Speaker 1 And this is the issue as well: is that when people talk about hate speech, they're making an incredibly complex issue very simple because they go, oh, yeah, we're going to get rid of hate speech.

Speaker 1 And then you go, well, what does that mean? And what is going to be the effects of that?

Speaker 1 And also, as, well, look, there's a lot of young kids on social media. I don't know about you, but when I was a young kid, I said lots of dumb shit.

Speaker 1 Well, are you then going to destroy someone's life for the next 20 years? Right. Because they said something that could be racist or maybe maybe is racist when they're 15 years old.

Speaker 2 Also, there's some things that people see that

Speaker 2 people have attempted to make mainstream that people have rejected. Like one of them is minor attracted persons.

Speaker 2 Right? You've seen this, right? It's map, Joe. Please, let's have some respect.

Speaker 3 I've seen minor attracted pedophiles.

Speaker 2 Legitimate professors say that it's offensive to call someone a pedophile and you should call them a minor attracted person and not to marginalize them.

Speaker 2 What if it becomes hate speech to call someone a pedophile, right? That is not. When you see how far we've gone, that's not outside of what could be possible.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because if you follow this train of thought to its logical conclusion, and if they are a minority and all minorities need to be protected,

Speaker 1 particularly from a majority who dislike them, and particularly in the case of pedophiles, where the majority fucking hate them, then you go, well, you know,

Speaker 1 this person can't help who they are, therefore they need protection, and they are a marginalized group.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and how much of that is being manipulated by foreign entities?

Speaker 2 How many people are out there trying to get us riled up about stuff?

Speaker 2 I remember the Renee DeResta thing, where she found out that there was a Texas separatist meeting that was organized by these

Speaker 2 troll farms right across the street from this Muslim meeting. Like, they literally had them on the same block.
So, they're both protesting, like, across, like, fuck you, fuck you.

Speaker 2 And they're just riling people up. Yeah.
And it's the idea was that they're doing this to

Speaker 2 there's a certain percentage of that. It's going to diminish our faith in democracy.
That's going to diminish our faith in our system.

Speaker 3 Well, this is what Yuri Basmanov was talking about. You've seen the stuff, right? And I 100% believe there's a lot of that going on right now.
100%.

Speaker 2 It's too accurate.

Speaker 2 That speech that he gave in 84, when you apply it today, it's like, oh my God. He was off by like a decade or so.

Speaker 2 But not by much, because a couple of decades ago, if you were in a university, it's still pretty ridiculous. But there was just no social media to amplify it to the rest of the world.

Speaker 2 It was like slowly taking root, but the thing that amplified it to the rest of the world was social media. And that was the unseen

Speaker 2 element that really threw the gasoline on the fire.

Speaker 3 I really think this issue actually, in my opinion, is a national security issue.

Speaker 3 And I think that when you look at it's not just this social media influencing, but it extends beyond that. It's other countries, hostile countries funding colleges and universities.

Speaker 3 It's doing all of that kind of stuff. I really think the West needs to get serious about that and go, do we want foreign countries to be dictating to our citizens what the truth is? Right.

Speaker 3 And we're going to have to reckon with that.

Speaker 3 That can't just be left to its own devices because it's not going to end well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's not. And it's scary that most people aren't aware that it's even taking place.

Speaker 2 You know, they think that these people with these opinions, this represents a sizable portion of the country and it's it's real. And a lot of it is not real.

Speaker 2 And we don't, we're not sure how much of it is real. And so like we don't even really know what the conversation actually is, which we know all of us.

Speaker 2 And then there's no like reasonable people who are calling for civility where people go, hey, I like how that guy's talking.

Speaker 2 There's no reasonable people call calling for some sort of a coming together and a compromising.

Speaker 2 I mean, the most interesting people in the Republican Party right now are people who used to be Democrats, which is fascinating. Yeah.
It's like people of of abandoned ship.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And, you know, and the thing that worries me is

Speaker 1 I talk to a lot of young people, and we've had young people on the show. One person in particular was talking about the fact that young people don't believe in democracy anymore.
Right.

Speaker 1 They just go, the system doesn't work. It doesn't represent me.
Whenever we elect someone,

Speaker 1 they don't do what

Speaker 1 we want them to do.

Speaker 2 What's the point?

Speaker 1 What we need is an oligarchy. We need strong men to come in and sort this out.
And you're like, whoa,

Speaker 1 don't

Speaker 1 be careful what you wish for because I've seen that.

Speaker 2 More socialism, which always leads to an oligarchy. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Or just a dictator. That's why there are people on the fringes of the right who are obsessed with Bukele.

Speaker 3 And Bukele has done a lot of good things in his country.

Speaker 2 Who is Bukele?

Speaker 3 He's the president of. Is it Salvador?

Speaker 2 Yeah, El Salvador.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he's the president of El Salvador. Incredibly popular.

Speaker 3 He basically took anyone who was a gang member and just threw them in prison. Right.

Speaker 3 And the countries are a lot better.

Speaker 2 Right, I've seen all that on a lot better.

Speaker 3 And, you know,

Speaker 3 I don't know enough about it to say whether it's entirely a good thing or a bad thing, but you can see the temptation to kind of go, well, why don't we just have one guy come in and sort the shit out?

Speaker 3 Right. Yeah.
You know?

Speaker 2 Right. But, you know, the real problem is how did they get there in the first place? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Or the real problem is like, what's instead of like cutting off the cancer, saying, why are we getting cancer? Like, what are we eating? What are we consuming?

Speaker 2 What's wrong with our society that's giving us these people that are gang members? Yes. Yeah.
And she's, I'm not a gang member. You're not a gang member.

Speaker 2 So, okay, a lot of people grow up and they don't become gang members. So how do we make more of that?

Speaker 2 How do we make more people that are productive, normal people that are integrated into society and less gang members?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 3 some people are going to be gang members and there's no getting away from that.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 And those people, we have the police for that if we haven't defunded them.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 So you have to have a combination of on the one hand, you teach people how to live a good life, what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 On the other hand, if you don't want to follow the rules, we're going to crack down on you pretty fucking hard. Yes.
Those two things together is how you get a good society.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 And when you make excuses for why people are doing it, you call it systemic racism and all these different things, and you treat them with leniency, then you're encouraging people to do crimes because there's no repercussions.

Speaker 2 So you're, again, not getting to the root of what's causing them to be like that in the first place, but you're minimizing what they're doing because you address the fact that there's a root.

Speaker 2 So like, again, you're dealing with the cancer. You're like, let the cancer grow.

Speaker 2 Cancer is part of life. Instead of saying, why am I getting cancer? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And also, the dangerous thing with Bukele, I went on a date with a girl who's another El Salvadorian journalist. And I said, look, I don't know anything about Bukele.

Speaker 1 Tell me about him. And she went to me that

Speaker 1 he gets his people to turn up if he doesn't like

Speaker 1 a newspaper,

Speaker 1 a story in the news.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 his guys have a word, and to get this suppressed.

Speaker 2 Well, this is the fear of the big strong man, right? And this is the fear that a lot of people have of Trump. They're scared that he would do that.

Speaker 2 The thing that they keep bringing up, which is ironic, is him turning the justice system on his enemies. It's just like,

Speaker 2 you guys are so crazy. This is like the nut.
This is like Hooker is getting mad at strippers.

Speaker 2 What are you saying?

Speaker 2 He hasn't even done it yet. She gets her tits out.

Speaker 2 This is so nuts. You guys are, it's

Speaker 2 the way they're talking about it, it's almost like they don't know what they're doing. They're not aware of what they're doing.

Speaker 3 Well, they know what they're doing. I don't even give a fuck.

Speaker 2 Yeah, one of those. Either one's not good.

Speaker 2 But, you know,

Speaker 2 from my conversation with Trump, I don't think he's the monster that everybody thinks he is. And

Speaker 2 I think for sure there's been a gross distortion of a lot of the things that he said that's led to this, you know, the fine people hoax, the the Russian gate hoax.

Speaker 2 There's so many different, the suckers and losers hoax. There's all these different things that people attribute to him to try to make him way worse than he really is.

Speaker 2 Instead of just like addressing the things you don't like about him that are real, you know, and so it's this distortion. And we know there's a distortion, and that's why...

Speaker 2 when he sits here and he talks for three hours, people are so interested. It's not just because what he says is interesting.
It's because we know you've been bullshitting.

Speaker 2 We know that you've used the the legal system to try to arrest this guy. You've done some Banana Republic shit where you're trying to weaponize the legal system to go after your political opponents.

Speaker 2 We know that. So when you get a chance to see that guy talk, you're like, oh, so this is who he is.
And again, he's being charming. He knows millions of people are listening.
He's talking to me.

Speaker 2 I've met him before. We have a mutual good friend in Dana White.
He knows I'm not going to be an asshole. So he's comfortable, but you get a chance to see, well, he is that guy.

Speaker 2 Part of him is that that guy. Like, it's not an act.
That's who he is. He is that guy.
He's not a terrible person. It's just you may or may not agree with his approach.

Speaker 2 You may or may not agree with how he runs his business and how he wants to do things.

Speaker 1 But if you keep using the word fascist against him, you ratchet up the pressure, you ratchet up the tension. So people are looking at him going, well, this guy is a fascist.

Speaker 1 He's Hitler. Therefore, we need to do everything in our power to stop Hitler coming to power because if they did that in the 1930s, we wouldn't have World War II.

Speaker 1 Six million Jews wouldn't be exterminated.

Speaker 2 Whippy Goldberg was just saying he's going to separate interracial couples. What?

Speaker 2 See if you can find that. See if you can find that.
Really? Yeah, I couldn't even watch it. I saw the clip and I was like, I can't even watch this.
I'll lose my marbles. It's so crazy.

Speaker 2 But it's like, put you in camps. I've heard that too.
They're going to put people in camps. They're going to put gay people in camps too.

Speaker 2 What? He was president for four years. None of these things happened.
He was already president. This is part of the problem with saying this.

Speaker 2 If he wasn't president before, and he was saying outrageous things like, what if this guy gets in power? But he was president. And he was president for four years.

Speaker 3 And it's interesting from people who keep talking about hate how much of that they're projecting onto him. Let's have a look at this.
It's going to sound us all crazy.

Speaker 2 Look at some volume. I know it's muted on the player.

Speaker 5 Different ways than to come after people because of their heritage, which they are born into.

Speaker 5 It is not a choice you are who you are right and here you're gonna make all kinds of fun people said no more we're tired of that that's why people are saying right that you heard the women say listen what we heard at that rally

Speaker 5 should be enough to shake folks awake because he's talking about you all of you all of you talking about you it's us He's not going to be, he's not going to, you know, say, oh, you're with a white guy.

Speaker 5 I'm going to keep you from being deported. No, he's going to deport you and put the white guy with someone else.
The man is out there.

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 2 Yeah. That's a large jump from what he's ever said.

Speaker 2 That's a crazy thing to say.

Speaker 3 That's why I thought you were very wise to bring the view up as the first thing you talked to him about, right? Because you're just going, this is how it used to be.

Speaker 3 And I remember at the exact moment.

Speaker 2 Nine years ago.

Speaker 2 I remember.

Speaker 2 It wasn't that long ago. Our friend, Donald Trump.
They all come and hug him and kiss him. Everybody loves you.

Speaker 1 They were talking about how they love him.

Speaker 3 Yeah, man.

Speaker 2 And the audience was cheering. He was getting cheered on the view.
It is so wild to watch. We didn't play it for him because we didn't want to give anybody any excuse to give us a copyright strike.

Speaker 2 Because I wanted to play it. I wanted to start the show off with him listening to him being on the view and go, what is this like? Because there's no one ever that's had the machine turn on them.

Speaker 2 Whether you agree with him or not agree, you must admit, like the steel dossier, all the crazy stuff they put out on him. They've turned this machine on him in this way you've never seen before.

Speaker 2 And this is how they used to look at him just nine years ago. You know, it was longer than that.

Speaker 4 It was 2011.

Speaker 2 Oh, was it? 2010. When he was running for president?

Speaker 4 No, he wasn't running for president then.

Speaker 2 Oh, he was talking about running for president?

Speaker 4 I wouldn't have mentioned it then, but I don't know.

Speaker 2 Well, he went on the view multiple times. How many times did he go on?

Speaker 4 He's been on, but I was trying to.

Speaker 2 When was the last time he went on?

Speaker 4 That could have been his last appearance, I think.

Speaker 2 Well, that makes sense, right? Because Barbara Walters, when did she stop being on it? Yeah, she was on that appearance. And she looked pretty young back then.
So 2011. So, okay, 13 years ago.

Speaker 2 Still nuts. Still nuts.

Speaker 3 It's not that long ago.

Speaker 2 Not that long ago.

Speaker 3 And for that complete about turn, to go from the greatest guy who everyone wants to be the president to the devil incarnate in 13. From the same people.

Speaker 3 From the same people.

Speaker 2 Joy Behart hugging him. Whippy Goldberg hugging him.
All of them hugging him.

Speaker 3 That's quite a transformation.

Speaker 2 Well, it's like they got their marching orders.

Speaker 4 He He did. He was in the 2012 race.

Speaker 2 Bows out of the 2012 U.S. president.
So that was when he was thinking about doing it in 2012. Oh,

Speaker 2 remember at the White House press correspondence dinner when Obama roasted him? Yes. And said, but I'm one thing that you'll never be.
President of the United States.

Speaker 2 And he was like, all right, motherfucker.

Speaker 2 You got the wrong dude. So there's fucking dudes out there that are like the boogeyman.
They just will keep coming.

Speaker 3 Well, that's a part of his appeal, man, is like when he got shot and

Speaker 3 he's badass.

Speaker 2 You made this fight, fight fight, fight, fight.

Speaker 3 And, you know, at this rally, there was this point when he was just,

Speaker 3 it really struck home for me why people like him. It was like he was talking about China and somebody had said, put out a report that if America had a war with China, America would lose.

Speaker 3 And he was like, first of all, why would you put out that report? And secondly, we would kick their ass.

Speaker 3 And you kind of go, if you're an American and you want your country to be great, you want it to be successful, left or right, whatever your position is, do you want to be on the side of the people who think America's future is behind it?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 Or do you want to be on the side of the people who think, yeah, we're going to kick ass, we're going to succeed, we're going to make money, we're going to be successful.

Speaker 2 And there's also, like, looking at some of his foreign policy decisions and whether or not he was correct, one of them was the embargoes on Iran.

Speaker 2 That seemed to have freed up a whole lot of money when the Biden administration

Speaker 2 let those funds free, and then October 7th happens shortly thereafter. And when you know that they fund these various terrorist organizations, this is something Iran's done.

Speaker 2 This is not a big stretch to think that one of the reasons why these things are happening was because people went a different way than Donald Trump did when he was in office.

Speaker 2 And a lot of people feel like that, like logical, reasonable, left-wing people even.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because it's true. Yeah.
It's true. If you give the Iranians a shit ton of money and also if they don't fear repercussions.
Right. You put those two things together.
Is it a surprise?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 Do you think part of the problem is we think everyone just thinks like us?

Speaker 2 So we're like, you know what?

Speaker 1 If we give more money to the Ayatollah, you know what he's going to do? Yeah, all right, you know, he's a bit nuts, but he's he's going to put money into social programs. The average Iranian

Speaker 1 is going to be happier, healthier, wealthier.

Speaker 2 Did you ever see that interview where this woman was asking the Taliban whether or not they're going to let women run for office now?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 3 and they just burst out laughing, laughing in her face.

Speaker 2 Like, what are you talking about? You don't understand this place at all. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's called mirror image bias. Actually, a lot of foreign intel guys, they get trained for years to not think that everyone is like them because they're absolutely not.

Speaker 3 The people in charge of Iran, they want to wage jihad against America and Israel.

Speaker 3 What do jihadis do when they have money and opportunity?

Speaker 2 Yeah, they go to jihad.

Speaker 2 They start going. It's not complicated.
It's not complicated.

Speaker 2 And Trump was aware of that.

Speaker 2 Some of the decisions that he made were better decisions.

Speaker 2 That's objectively true.

Speaker 3 And now Israel is having to deal with these terrorist groups that are armed and funded to the teeth.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then we're in this place where we're arguing about jokes.

Speaker 2 Jeard, right? Yeah. It is.

Speaker 3 Fucking weird. It's fucking weird.
Because

Speaker 1 it's easier to argue about jokes than it is to talk about the Middle East and be actually honest about it and go,

Speaker 1 what Israel is facing is an existential fight for survival and

Speaker 1 Israel is causing... you know, there are war crimes happening, whatever.
But you're going, you can't just let terrorist groups attack a country.

Speaker 1 You can't let Hezbollah from October the 8th fire rockets into northern Israel.

Speaker 1 That can't be allowed to continue.

Speaker 1 It's either going to escalate or you're going to need to de-escalate. Because the one thing with jihadists is, you know, they're committed.

Speaker 1 You know, they believe what they... Yeah, they're committed and they are going to.

Speaker 1 They believe in a global Islamic caliphate and they want to wipe Israel off the map and then they want to wipe all sovereign nations off the map so they get a global Islamic caliphate which is why so many moderate Islamic countries crack down on these people really hard because they understand the threat from these people and then there's the reality that what israel is doing is also horrific right you you see the murdered children and women and you see the videos of people getting blown up with indiscriminate bombing of apartment buildings because someone underneath it is Hamas.

Speaker 2 That's fucking terrifying too. So there's no win because no one can justify that.
You watch that and you see, you go how many innocent people died? This is fucking insane.

Speaker 2 And then there's the argument that, oh, but Hamas is using them as human shields.

Speaker 2 Like, there's no other way to do this than to just bomb where you know civilians are going to be because bad guys are there also?

Speaker 2 This is the crazy thing about war because in the past, I think this is a strategy that would have been employed.

Speaker 2 by almost any powerful nation trying to wipe out an enemy, but we don't like, look, what would we we do in Hiroshima, in Nagasaki?

Speaker 2 We just indiscriminately killed everybody, just dropped a nuclear bomb on an entire city.

Speaker 3 But the question is, what should Israel do in this case? That's a good question.

Speaker 2 That's a real good question.

Speaker 3 And this is the problem, because I take your point, but the issue is that Hamas have openly stated on numerous occasions that they want to maximize civilian casualties. They're doing it deliberately.

Speaker 3 So the question is, and we've had pro-Palestine guests on the show, we've had pro-Israel guests on the show, and we've asked them basically trying to get to the bottom of this.

Speaker 3 Like, how do you do this? I get that what's happening is terrible. It is terrible.
No one would dispute that.

Speaker 3 No one who has a conscience or a heart would look at what's happening in Gaza and think, that's fucking great.

Speaker 2 Nobody.

Speaker 3 But at the same time, the question ultimately is, after October 7th, what is Israel supposed to do?

Speaker 3 What are you supposed to do when your country is being attacked from several sides by different terrorist groups, all funded by Iran and sponsored in other ways, and they give them weapons.

Speaker 3 What are you supposed to do? Now, you say, well, they're supposed to, isn't there another way? I'm asking that question.

Speaker 3 I haven't heard a persuasive answer of what they're supposed to do in statement.

Speaker 2 The problem is when you have

Speaker 2 very religious, ideologically convinced people that

Speaker 2 their thing is also about if you die, you go to heaven. Yes.
And

Speaker 2 you're a martyr, and that's a worthy goal.

Speaker 2 There's not another religion that espouses that there's another another religion that enforces that idea in people right that scares the shit out of people and that they're okay with people dying

Speaker 3 i i would love for somebody to have an answer to this but i just tell you like i as you know i have relatives in ukraine what did they do when the war started they turned every fucking basement into a bunker to protect civilians That is not what Hamas are doing.

Speaker 3 They have these tunnels. They don't let civilians in there.

Speaker 3 That's where the terrorists hang out.

Speaker 3 So what do you do? What is Israel supposed to do?

Speaker 2 Didn't Eric Prince have some sort of an idea to flush the tunnels?

Speaker 3 Flush out the tunnels, yeah. It's not a bad idea.

Speaker 2 Why didn't they implement that?

Speaker 3 I have no idea. I have no idea.

Speaker 2 Because that would have kind of killed everybody, wouldn't it? If we really could do that? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Probably kill hostages too. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. But they're probably already dead.
Or if not, they want to be dead. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Can you imagine an October 7th hostage is still alive?

Speaker 3 For a year, man.

Speaker 3 And this is why I'm asking the question, because I just think, what would the UK do? What would America do if you had a rampaging terrorist attack across the border and missiles from the north?

Speaker 2 It's a very good question. I think it's also from the perspective of people that live in Israel versus the perspective of people that live in America where we haven't been invaded.

Speaker 2 You know, and the people in Israel who have mandatory military service and they're constantly on threat. I got a buddy of mine who's my kickboxing coach, Shuki, and he was from Israel.

Speaker 2 And he was always like... playing the bongo drums.
I went to his house for dinner. Everybody's dancing and singing.
I was like, why are you guys so happy? Like everybody's so like joyful.

Speaker 2 He goes, man, he goes, when you you live in Israel, any day could be your last. So it's like, just party, have a good time.
And they had this idea.

Speaker 2 And I think if you're an American and you don't feel that threat, it just feels abstract.

Speaker 2 You're not going to understand the mentality of someone who lives in a place that's surrounded by people who hate them.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And we know, we had Nick Freitas.
Do you know Nick Nick Freitas? No. He's a Green Beret, former Green Beret.
He has a YouTube channel, I think, as well. And we asked him about this.

Speaker 3 You know, you were,

Speaker 3 you went, he served in Iraq, I think, two tours. And he talked about this.
We've got this interview coming out, and it's like,

Speaker 3 there is no way to deal with terrorists who are hiding behind civilians other than by going in and dealing with it. There's no other way.

Speaker 3 I wish there was.

Speaker 3 I'm genuinely asking the question, what is the other way?

Speaker 3 And if it is, Israel should use it.

Speaker 3 But if there isn't,

Speaker 3 what are they supposed to do?

Speaker 2 It's also a crazy subject in America, right? Because there's people on the left that do not want to support Israel and they think that Palestine is,

Speaker 2 you know, that Palestine should be free.

Speaker 2 And they'll say from the river to the sea and they chant it out and they don't exactly even know what they're saying, which means like an annihilation of Israel, from the river to the sea.

Speaker 2 That's literally what that means. But then they're now this sort of, there's like this anti-Semitic thing that's on the left, which didn't exist before.

Speaker 2 It's just like the anti-Israel, anti-Semitic thing that you never heard before from the left.

Speaker 2 The left was always like super pro-Israel.

Speaker 3 But it makes sense, doesn't it? Because if you've had a decade of wokeness, the point of wokeness is the people who are successful, the people who have the upper hand,

Speaker 3 they're the bad guys.

Speaker 2 Right, always. Colonizers.
Right.

Speaker 3 So Israel is the bad guy by default. And by the way, that doesn't mean that

Speaker 3 the situation in Gaza

Speaker 3 has been perfect. Nobody would argue that.

Speaker 3 But just because a country is succeeding in its military campaign doesn't mean they're the bad guys.

Speaker 3 The problem with Jews, though, is

Speaker 3 they're too successful.

Speaker 3 The Jews are too successful. God damn it.

Speaker 2 Right? That's the problem with Jews.

Speaker 3 They're too successful. This tiny minority of people who've been oppressed throughout history, and yet they're still succeeding.
They're making money. They're successful.

Speaker 3 The country they've built is more powerful than all its neighbors.

Speaker 3 It's not a good look if you're woke.

Speaker 2 How are these fuckers... That's the argument.

Speaker 3 So the anti-Semitism on the left that you're talking about, it's the logical conclusion of wokeness, which is why I could never understand why Jews went along with wokeness. Massively, massively.

Speaker 3 Like, Jews vote like 60, 70, 75% for the Democrat Party in this country.

Speaker 3 But that was before October 7th. I think that's, you know, talking to a lot of people.
We just had Bill Ackman on the show. That's changed people's minds quite a bit.

Speaker 3 I don't, I'm not saying he was woke before that, but you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's also as well, you talk about the left, but the left in the UK has always had a problem with anti-Semitism, Joe.

Speaker 2 Really?

Speaker 1 Yes, there's always been a faction of the left that has looked at Jews and seen financiers, business people, rich people, they control the

Speaker 1 means of production. They're the ones keeping the ordinary man on the street down.
We need to get rid of these financiers, the oligarchs, the bankers, and then we'll be able to liberate people.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 there's always been that faction on the UK left that that's what we need to do. And when Jeremy Corbyn was in power, or wasn't in power, was leader of the Labour Party,

Speaker 1 there was Jewish MPs, Labour MPs, who literally walked out of the party because they were saying that he was not tackling and dealing with anti-Semitism and that this was allowed to run rampant within the Labour Party.

Speaker 3 Interesting. You know, Thomas Sowell was once asked, what do Jews need to do to stop anti-Semitism? And he paused for a second and went, fail.

Speaker 2 That guy is so wise.

Speaker 3 Oh, man, he's incredible.

Speaker 2 He's a fascinating person. And what kind of intellectual courage to step out on those limbs that he does and say these logical things that are against the, it's, you know, heretic.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I'm

Speaker 3 such a great admirer of his. He's such an interesting writer.
He's got so many counterintuitive ideas. Yeah.
Super informative.

Speaker 2 He's great in interviews, too. Yeah.
What if he still does them?

Speaker 3 He's very, I think he's very old now. Yeah.
So he does. I think we tried to get him when we nearly had a phone interview with him, but it didn't quite happen.
But I'd still love to make that happen.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but he's getting older, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 I've seen some of the Noam Chomsky interviews now, and you're like, yo, man, you should stop doing those.

Speaker 1 I mean, when he came out, I mean, he was hard line on the vaccine.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like, have you done any research at all? Yeah, he was, yeah, hard. But I think that's an old person thing.
I think old people get really scared of diseases. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and they've got every right to be scared of diseases because they're far more vulnerable to them.

Speaker 2 Exactly. So they're thinking of something that can kill you, whereas the young people are thinking, oh, it's going to be inconvenient.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
And also, you know much better than either of us, every great champion has to retire at some point, right? Yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You have to, your shit doesn't work right anymore, including your brain. It's going to come a point in time where you're not thinking well.
You're not very logical and you're not objective.

Speaker 2 But the thing that made you a champion is the thing that's going to make you not want to retire yep that's what fighters for sure that's what they that's why they fight way past their prime and it gets really sad yeah you never want to let it go yeah yeah because why would you why would you want to let it go right especially if that's what you do imagine if what you do relies on a very brief window of like power yeah like that you have physically where your hormones are firing you know you don't have that much time yeah and then when it slips away you still feel like you're you but you just you can't move i remember when uh watching Tyson Fury, I can't remember who he fought.

Speaker 1 He fought in London, and Constant and I were talking about it because we were going, oh, is he going to retire? He said he's going to retire.

Speaker 1 And then he entered the stadium on a gold throne carried by people.

Speaker 2 I'm like, bro, he ain't going to fucking retire anytime soon, man.

Speaker 2 He's fighting Usik again. Oh, man.
That's a tough fight. Yeah.
That Usik guy is talented. He's so talented.
He's so small for a heavyweight, too.

Speaker 2 He just, he's non-stop movement and his footwork and everything. It's so different than anybody else.
Joshua didn't know what to do with him.

Speaker 2 He's like, where is this guy going to be when I'm throwing punches? He was moving all over the place. Yeah, it's so different.

Speaker 1 It's so different.

Speaker 1 I remember when I was watching the Joshua Usik fight, it made me realize the importance of technique because Joshua is a real physical specimen.

Speaker 2 And has great technique, too. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But he doesn't have that elite level of technique that Usik had. And you could see the combinations, the way he was throwing punches.

Speaker 1 He just didn't have an answer to it because he's never been exposed to that level of technique.

Speaker 2 Well, you know what it is? He's a heavyweight, and the heavyweights were never really that good in terms of that kind of technique.

Speaker 2 It's like you need it at like middleweight and light, heavyweight because everyone's super talented and technical.

Speaker 2 When you get up to the heavyweight division, guys tend, it tends to be like a lower bar, you know.

Speaker 2 And so, when you have an elite athlete like Joshua, it's like fast and knockout power, he can excel without having the kind of technique that a guy like Lomachenko and Ustik were chained by the same guy.

Speaker 2 They were both trained by Lomachenko's father. So they both have extreme technique.
And then you have Bival and

Speaker 2 Bitterbeef that just fought. Same thing, both like super Soviet-style boxing.
And you'll go, whoa, like this is technique, like really, really high-level technique.

Speaker 2 But it's rare that someone with that kind of technique gets into the heavyweight division.

Speaker 1 And that's why Fury is just a magnificent fighter. Because

Speaker 1 fury is from a gypsy background and those boys are taught to fight at the age of three four years old and it's in their culture they all fight they all trained as boxers and telling you as someone who has broken up fights with gypsy kids when i used to teach them they are taught never to back down You never back down.

Speaker 1 You always go for it until the very end.

Speaker 1 I remember when I was watching the Fury

Speaker 1 World of fight. And I remember someone saying to me, like, he's knocked down.
He ain't getting up. I'm like, mate, trust me.

Speaker 2 He's going to get up.

Speaker 2 He's going to get up.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And then, but that's why Fury's a force of nature.
It's that technique he has, which has been instilled in him from basically the moment he could walk.

Speaker 2 Technique and huge. And if you watch the Usik fight, he was touching Usuk up in the beginning of the fight.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, that reach and that jab, the accuracy that he has, he was doing really well in that fight until he started to slow down a little bit. And Usuk wound up just catching him.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Bro, it's an exciting moment in UFC as well.
The one that just happened. Chimayev? fuck me.

Speaker 2 Bro, he's terrifying.

Speaker 2 He does that to everybody. Everybody he gets a hold of.
He just ragdolls. Even like really elite wrestlers.
It's very extraordinary. His talent is undeniable.

Speaker 2 And Robert Whitaker, like seeing him breaking Robert Whitaker's jaw just by squeezing across his face.

Speaker 2 Apparently Robert Whitaker had a broken jaw when he was a child and he had it worked on, but it's always been vulnerable. Like his front teeth have been pushed in before.

Speaker 2 In the Drekis duplicate fight, he had a problem with it as well, apparently.

Speaker 2 But this was different because this was like Chamayev got the blade of his forearm across the jaw and it was like just crushing those teeth and it goes into his mouth. You saw the photo?

Speaker 2 Yeah, what it looks like?

Speaker 2 Yeah, man.

Speaker 3 Do you think if that doesn't happen, Whitaker stands up?

Speaker 2 Who knows? I mean, Chamayev's was smothering him. Whitaker looked exhausted.

Speaker 3 It was very early in the fight, too.

Speaker 2 Yep, first round. I mean, it's just the amount of technique that Hamzad has and the intensity of his attack is unlike anybody else.
He's so talented.

Speaker 2 He's so good at grappling and his stand-up is fucking dangerous too. And I think he's way better at 185.
I really do. I think at 170 he was killing himself to make that weight.

Speaker 2 And now they see him at 185. I think he has more energy.
He's just and he's more than big enough for those guys. He's huge.
He's a big guy. He's good, man.
He's really fucking good.

Speaker 2 But Ilya Toporia, that was the most shocking.

Speaker 4 It says that Robert only landed two strikes.

Speaker 2 Wow. That's crazy.
I don't even know what he hit him with.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Might have hit him with a leg kick.
I don't remember. I don't remember.
I just remember Hamzat shooting. Two leg kicks.
Yeah, there it is. Two leg kicks.

Speaker 2 So Hamza just shot in on him and just started beating the fuck out of him. I mean, it was so relentless and overwhelming.

Speaker 2 And when Robert got up once, Hamzat dove on him again and had him down again a second. So it's demoralizing.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Reminded me of Khabib as well, where you get up, you get straight back down, and then you just run out of energy, right?

Speaker 2 Maybe even more intense, because maybe even more dominant you know like to do that to whitaker like that a guy who's a world champion like even the connor fight it took a while before he overwhelmed him you know it took a while before he was just beating connor's ass like the beginning of the fight is more competitive like this was just a overwhelming victory he just homsa just charged in dove in got him down and mauled him mauled him until he broke his face do you think it's different with duplicate if Because he can wrestle.

Speaker 2 He can wrestle. He's got very good jiu-jitsu.
He hits fucking hard, and he's a big, durable dude. But I don't know if he's going to be able to wrestle with that guy.
Like, I don't know, man.

Speaker 2 The Hamzat's skill is so high-level, it makes me wonder. It's like some guys, like, you see it in jiu-jitsu.

Speaker 2 There's some guys that look really good until they fight somebody who's really, really good. And then they get manhandled.
You know, it's like everybody looks good until they face Gordon Ryan.

Speaker 2 Like, Gordon Ryan can do that to anybody. Like, is Hamzat at that level? Well, it kind of appears that he is.

Speaker 2 It appears that he's, in terms of, like, the grappling that he possesses, seems magnitudes greater than anybody else in his division.

Speaker 1 But it also, it's that skill thing that we talk about.

Speaker 1 You can have athleticism, you can have strength, but when you come up against someone who is skill is far superior to yours, eventually you're going to burn out because there's only a fine amount, a fine amount of strength and power that you have got.

Speaker 1 And eventually, if you're fighting somebody who can match you physically, but also has the skill on top of it, I mean, you're kind of done, really, unless you get lucky with a punch.

Speaker 3 I guess counter-argument might be, and you'll correct me, Joe, Gilbert Burns fight,

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 3 he won, but it was close.

Speaker 2 He was very close. I think it's at 170.
I don't think he's the same guy at 170. I also think Gilbert is tough as fuck.

Speaker 2 And at that point in time, Gilbert had he challenged Usman for the title and lost, but then came back and was one of the best 170-pounders in the world.

Speaker 2 It was a big step up in competition that I don't think Hamzad had faced before. And Gilbert is a world champion in jiu-jitsu.
He's a very, very, very good grappler. So there's a difference there.

Speaker 2 When you get Gilbert to the ground, it's not that simple. Like you're fighting off armbars and triangles and guillotines, and he's back up to his feet.
There was a lot of wild scrambles.

Speaker 2 It was just, you know, Gilbert's a little older now, but back then he was really in his prime or close to it. And he's just that fucking good.
That's why that fight was so close.

Speaker 2 It's just Gilbert, especially in that fight he was that good I mean it was a war he dropped Chemaev cracked him with a right hand but Chemaev even when he got dropped he dove in and took him down like he's fucking good man he's good what he did to Whitaker was just nobody thought that was gonna happen that was crazy that was scary yeah that was scary and what Ilya did to max is even scarier too oh wow because I thought I saw max as being totally under in control of that entire fight i was like he's got it tactic tactically he's got him he's gonna win this and then I wouldn't have said that.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't have said that. I would have said there's always danger with Tapurio.
He's fucking so dangerous. When he hits you, it's different than anybody, especially with his hands.

Speaker 2 His fucking boxing is so high-level.

Speaker 2 And there's shots that he was landing that would thud, and you could see it in Max's face. He caught him with a bunch of good shots before that.
But Max was landing a lot of stuff too.

Speaker 2 But he was forced into these exchanges. And when

Speaker 2 you're forced in these exchanges, Ilya has superior technique. His punches come straight down the pipe.
His hooks are perfect. His distance management is perfect.
He's super aggressive.

Speaker 2 And the consequences of getting hit by him are so grave. That left hook he caught Max with, oh my goodness,

Speaker 2 just spun his head around.

Speaker 1 And you rarely see, I mean, in the UFC, you see, obviously, people who are, you know, multi-disciplined, but it's rare that you see someone who's so pure with the way they hit.

Speaker 1 I was watching him go, this guy looks like a boxer the way that he hits.

Speaker 2 But he's that way with everything. He's that way with his grappling.

Speaker 2 he's out with his submissions he's just really really fucking good and he's the new guard right like every generation comes up with a new guy who's a like a new high watermark of technique yeah that's where ilya is so who's going to challenge him now do you think volkanovsky yeah they're going to have a rematch i think volkanovsky taking that fight three months after getting head kicked into a you know a KO, that's kind of crazy to do.

Speaker 2 Three or four months later, he's fighting Ilya Toporia, the most dangerous puncher he's ever faced. I think that was crazy.
And I think now he's had a long time to recover.

Speaker 2 But it's always going to be in his head that that guy just knocked me the fuck out.

Speaker 2 And look, that's the kind of thing that drives a guy like Volkanovsky because he's such a warrior. Like, he doesn't shy away from the most difficult challenges.

Speaker 2 Because if he did, he could have taken some fights with some up-and-coming contenders. He could have said, there's probably someone who wants to challenge him.

Speaker 2 There's some guy he thinks he could definitely beat. Let me just get this fight under my belt.
And then, you know, but he's no.

Speaker 2 He wants to go right back in there and fight for the title again and am i right in thinking there it's power versus speed because volkanovsky is so fast so quick ilya is fast too man yeah there's no difference in speed really no i don't think so oh wow i don't think there's there's a little bit of difference when you're loading up you're not going to hit as fast you know if you're just trying to like touch someone you could touch the must faster but ilya is fast as fuck he's not slow at all there's no he doesn't have any disadvantages he doesn't have any weaknesses man that's the thing That's why I say he's the new high watermark.

Speaker 2 There's people that are thinking maybe he's the best pound-for-pound fighter alive. Like, there's a lot of discussion about that online.

Speaker 2 It's a little premature, especially when John Jones is still out there and there's other elite guys that are still out there, but Islam Makachev's another one.

Speaker 2 You know, like, it's a, there's a real argument that he's the best pound-for-pound guy alive, but it's fucking close. Ilya's, he might be the best.

Speaker 1 And if you think about Volkanovsky, a fire is never the same after they've been knocked out, particularly overlap.

Speaker 2 Twice in a couple of months' time, in four months' time.

Speaker 1 So there's already an injury there. There's already a propensity to

Speaker 1 get knocked out. There's a weakness.
And then you're going up against a fighter with that power.

Speaker 1 You know, or you think all he's going to need to do is just connect and he may be Sparko again.

Speaker 2 Who knows? I mean, I don't know what kind of strategy Volkanovsky will employ. I don't know if they'll try to do something different.

Speaker 2 City kickboxing, the place that he trains at, it's very, very, very high level. And those guys always have excellent game plans.

Speaker 2 So maybe there's something they saw that Volkanovsky couldn't capitalize on because he was still dealing with the effects of the KO loss to Makachev which you know you get KO'd like that a bad one that was a high kick shin to the head those stay with you for a long time you might not be the same person so he might have fought still under the effects of that KO so now he gets knocked out again by Ilya now he's had a long time to rest and that's what you really need if you've been knocked out like that you need treatments there's like concussion protocols a bunch of different things that people can do to help their brain health.

Speaker 2 But like when Manny Pacquiao got knocked out by Juan Manuel Marquez, Freddie Roach didn't let him fight for a year. He said, no, you're not going to do anything for one year.

Speaker 2 Nothing. I don't want you to do anything.
You train. That's it.
Work out. Hit the bag.
You're not, no fights for two years. I know you've been.

Speaker 1 Sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say.

Speaker 1 It's a really interesting moment because UFC is very much in the ascendancy when compared to boxing.

Speaker 1 But you've looked at all this Saudi money that is being pumped into boxing now.

Speaker 1 and you know because previously you know the thing that ruined boxing as we all know is promoters not and you know teams not wanting to put their great fighter against their other great fighter because they want to protect their asset.

Speaker 1 I'm thinking now you look at kind of the Saudis they're just gonna flood they're flooding it with money. Oh, yeah.
So are we actually gonna see interesting fights again? Because at the moment

Speaker 1 you're starting to see it happen more and more in the heavyweight division.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're gonna see it. The the Saudis are doing a great service in that regard regard, like giving people fights they want to see.
Because there's a lot of interesting fights that can be made.

Speaker 2 If you can get Benavidez versus Canelo, for instance, like that is a fight that everybody wants to see at 168. That's a fascinating fight.
Benavidez at 168 is a monster. And Canelo is the king.

Speaker 2 So it's like that would be an amazing fight. If they could get them to do that, that would be awesome.
They might fight at 175. Who knows?

Speaker 2 But if they can do that, if the Saudis can come up with enough money, and the other one is Terrence Crawford. Terrence Crawford versus Canelo.
That's fucking interesting. That's really interesting.

Speaker 2 If they can pay them enough money to get them to do it.

Speaker 1 Because if they can pay enough money, then what you have is a real competitor to the UFC. Because at the moment,

Speaker 1 I like watching UFC, but I'm a boxing guy. I love it.
That's how I was raised. But

Speaker 1 we always have an argument about it. But it's undeniable that UFC is more entertaining because they're the fights that you want to see.

Speaker 3 But it's not just that. This is what I was going to ask you, Jay.
It's not just about the headline fight.

Speaker 3 The difference between the UFC and boxing is if you're watching UFC, you're going to see five great fights. Right.
Minimum. Right.
On a card.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 With boxing, no one watches the undercard.

Speaker 2 Well, the Saudi's doing a much better job of that. Riyadh Season's done a fantastic job of putting compelling undercard fights.
And that is also because they're throwing that money around.

Speaker 2 You know, like the Bival

Speaker 2 Better Be a fight. That was the Riyadh Season put that on.
That was a fight that a lot of people didn't know if it was ever going to happen because both guys are undefeated.

Speaker 2 Both guys are like world champions. Like, you can make a lot of money just beating up other guys.
You don't have to lose your O. You don't have to have these two guys go to war like this.

Speaker 1 And all of a sudden, it's made boxing interesting. Yep.
Because lots of people are talking about sports watching, and obviously that's a different conversation.

Speaker 1 But finally, now I'm seeing fights, and I'm like, I want to watch this fight.

Speaker 2 Yes, yes, it is. It's fun.
It's a fun time to be a sports fan.

Speaker 2 You know, it's, I mean, probably like one of the greatest moments ever for combat sports. Like right now.
It feels like it.

Speaker 2 It has to be with the UFC because the UFC has kind of redefined what combat sports are, and it's the greatest time ever for the UFC. And then at the same time, boxing is still thriving.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it's becoming exciting because you're seeing great fights. And

Speaker 1 for people like us who grew up and saw the great fighters of the 80s and the 90s, all of a sudden we see this happening again, and we're just like, ah, actually, I remember why I fell in love with this sport.

Speaker 2 How about Anthony Joshua and Dubois?

Speaker 2 Du Bois is coming into his own, man. That's what that is.
He's only like 27, right? Yep. Yeah,

Speaker 2 he's coming into his own. That guy's fucking scary.
He's dangerous.

Speaker 1 And you know, the interesting thing was, is that

Speaker 1 at least the press in the UK, they didn't give him a hope. Everybody was talking about, you know, like when Joshua gets Du Bois out of the way, then we can move on to the next fight.

Speaker 1 And this is a fight that we want to see.

Speaker 2 It seems like Joshua believed that going into that fight. It seems like he believed that he was just going to dominate him.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and he just got ruthlessly exposed. The power of Dubois.
I remember I bought into it. I was like, okay, so I'll watch it, but you know, this is going to be a stepping stone match.

Speaker 2 It wasn't a stepping stone match. Aggression, too.
Man, he was so aggressive. He was just in the pocket constantly, just forcing Joshua to go to war.
It was wild.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it rapidly became apparent that Joshua couldn't match him. He just couldn't go to war with him.
And at the end,

Speaker 1 this showed what the fight was like. Everybody was like, look, Joe, to Joshua, I think you're done.
And nobody's going to be able to do that.

Speaker 2 That's crazy right after he knocks out Francis Ngano and everyone's like, you're back. Yeah.
You know? I mean, he flattened Francis Ngano, and everybody's like, oh, Joshua's back.

Speaker 2 Look how good he looked. Yeah.
Ruthless fucking game, man.

Speaker 3 You mentioned Ngana. I'm so gutted.
I just heard Dana White say that that fight with John Jones is never going to happen.

Speaker 3 I'm so gutted about that, man.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm going to stay out of that one.

Speaker 2 I love Francis. I love Dana.
I don't get it. I don't know what happened between those two.
They apparently have some sort of a personal thing with each other. Dana says he's not a good guy.

Speaker 2 Everything I've ever, every interaction I've ever had with him, he's a great guy. I really love talking to him.
I've had him on the podcast a couple of times.

Speaker 2 His story about being a child working in a sand mine is crazy. His story about making his way from Cameroon all the way to the coast and then getting sent back to the Sahara Desert like six times.

Speaker 2 It's a crazy story. You know, being homeless in France and walking into a gym and then all of a sudden becoming the UFC heavyweight champion of the world.
It's nuts. It's a crazy story.

Speaker 2 It's a literal story out of a movie.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't know what their beef is. No, I don't want to get involved in any beef.
I'm just saying that's a great fight. I'm not sure if John Jones.
Yeah, I wish he fought John Jones.

Speaker 2 But I'm interested in John Jones versus Stipe.

Speaker 2 Especially if Stipe is healthy. I'm very interested in that.
Can I

Speaker 3 in no way wish to be disrespectful, but

Speaker 3 just a layman perspective, a lot of people I have heard saying Steve A is too old now.

Speaker 2 We don't know.

Speaker 2 He hasn't fought since he got knocked out by Francis, and Francis looked fucking unbelievable in that fight.

Speaker 2 He was patient and calculated, and his power is just so extraordinary that if he just catches you a couple of times, you're fucked. I mean, Francis hit so hard.

Speaker 2 And so him knocking out Stipe was not as much as like Steve A doesn't have it anymore. It was that Francis is that good, that big, that scary, a natural 265-pound knockout machine.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but John Jones, man, come on.

Speaker 2 Yeah, John Jones is the highest fight IQ of all time next to Mighty Mouse. Like, fuck, man.

Speaker 2 He finds a way to win, you know, and he's an unbelievable grappler. That's why that would be such a good fight.
His super high fight IQ, use of distance better than anybody.

Speaker 2 And then this ability to know how to win. And can he win versus that guy?

Speaker 2 Because if you get clipped once, just once, what he did to to Kane Velasquez, just inside, caught him with an uppercut, and you see Kane's just lights go out. Like, Kane can take a shot, man.

Speaker 2 That guy's, his power is different. It's just extraordinary.

Speaker 1 But I think you hit the nail on the head. He knows how to win.
And you see it with all great athletes

Speaker 1 and teams.

Speaker 1 Even if they're not doing well, even though they're not fighting well, even though they're playing well, they have that extra gear that they can go into. And then suddenly you go, how did he do that?

Speaker 1 How did they do that?

Speaker 2 They were on on the ropes. Makes people different.

Speaker 2 It probably drives you crazy.

Speaker 2 They say Michael Jordan was out of his fucking mind when he was at his best.

Speaker 2 Of course. It's just a lot of people.

Speaker 3 But Johns has looked, you know, I wouldn't say beatable, but there are a couple of guys that pushed him. Two or three.

Speaker 2 It's mostly he was playing with his food. It's mostly John was bored.
He was so dominant that he would not train.

Speaker 2 You know, when he fought Alexander Gustafsson, they said he barely trained at all and still beat him in the stretch.

Speaker 2 And then the rematch wanted to prove a point so trained really hard and beat the shit out of Gustavson you know

Speaker 2 with John it's a lot of it is he's so much better than everybody else like when he's really threatened like with Cormier then you see how good he really is like when he knocked out Cormier with that head kick and that's when you see how good he is when he's when he's pushed yeah when you see John Jones with a real challenge in front of him and hopefully that's what the John Jones will see with Steepee yeah let's hope Steepe pushes him listen gentlemen it's always a pleasure we just did like forever

Speaker 2 five o'clock here here.

Speaker 2 But always a pleasure talking to you guys, man. Always a lot of fun.
Appreciate you.

Speaker 3 Appreciate you. Thank you, John.

Speaker 2 So tell everybody how to see your show.

Speaker 3 We're on YouTube, Trigonometry. We both have a sub-stack now as well.

Speaker 2 So check those out too. Look at you.
Fancy journalists. Fancy journalists.

Speaker 2 All right. Thank you.
Appreciate you, guys. Bye, everybody.