1138: Her Exposed Bi Affair? It's Over! She Swears! | Feedback Friday

With a $5 meal deal with new McValue, you pick a McDouble or a McChicken, then get a small fry, a small drink, and a four-piece McNuggets. That's a lot of McDonald's for not a lot of money.
Prices and participation may vary. McDouble meal, $6 in some markets for a limited time only.
This episode is sponsored in part by Vital Proteins. I want to tell you about Vital Proteins Collagen Peptides.
That's a mouthful. It's a daily supplement that supports your hair, skin, nails, bones, and joints all in one in one simple step each day.
Collagen makes up about a third of the protein in our bodies, but as we hit our 30s, it unfortunately starts to decline. That's when you might notice things aren't working quite like they used to.
Your joints, your skin, maybe even your hair. Vital Proteins steps in to help keep those areas supported so you can stay active and keep doing what you love.
Vital Proteins is the number one collagen peptide brand in the U.S., so they know what they're doing. It's super easy to take.
Just add a serving to your coffee, smoothie, even water. It doesn't even taste like anything, so it blends right in.
The key is consistency. Making it a daily habit is how you see the benefits.
Get 20% off by going to vitalproteins.com and enter promo code Jordan at checkout. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.
This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.
As always, I'm here with

Feedback Friday producer, the little chocolate left on your pillow during this existential

turndown service, Gabriel Mizrahi. Oh, this is about the bedroom?

Yeah. I came up with this one while I was staying at your place last week.
I felt like I was in a

hotel, except it was my friend's house. Pretty sweet.
Little gift on the pillow. Essential oils diffuser, obviously.
I'm not even kidding about that, by the way, folks. You did not turn that on.
It was just there. No, it was just there.
Salt lamp in the corner. Luggage rack.
Your TripAdvisor review is going to be fire. I appreciate that.
I'm glad you enjoyed your stay at Shea Gaby. Five stars, man.
Best oatmeal of my life. Strong couch.
My only complaint, hard to wedge all my protein shakes in between dozens of boxes of kidney beans in the fridge. That's what you get when you book with points.
I don't have to tell you. Yeah, that one's on me.
I'm booking through Amex travel next time. There you go.
For the late checkout. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.
And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, war correspondents, neuroscientists, rocket scientists, a lot of scientists, astronauts, cold case homicide investigators.
This week, we had former ATF agent Jay Dobbins back on the show. You guys loved my last interview with him.
There was so much more to talk about because I actually ended it early because it was like the perfect ending rarely comes along in an interview. And I was like, I can't go past this point.
So I decided to do another round with him, round two. Once again, there was so much to talk about.
We talked about the specifics of his undercover operation to take down the Hells Angels biker gang, among other operations and stories from his career. Just a great storyteller and done a lot to fight crime.
On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, offer advice, and generally stroll through the brambles and thickets in this spooky forest of WTF. And by the way, a few weeks back, I recommended chia seed pudding to you guys.
It has some protein, it tastes good, and it's easy to make. What I didn't tell you when I mentioned it is before I got into this stuff, you know, I've been having my blood work done probably every 10 weeks for the past couple years.
And my cholesterol was not good. The LDL cholesterol, the bad cholesterol, it went from like 68 to 78, 88, 98, 119.
Not good, especially for somebody who doesn't eat a ton of junk at all. That's just a bad trend.
And that happened for about a year. And then I threw chia seed pudding in the mix and I've eaten it pretty much every single day since I had my last blood work or previous blood work.
And as of my latest blood work, my LDL went from 119 to 78. So I dropped 41 point I mean mean, crazy amount.
And that's enormous. I mean, that's like 30% plus drop.
And I made basically just that one big change to my diet since my January blood work. The daily chia seed pudding is loaded with soluble fiber enough for a whole day's RDA in just that one meal.
And I wasn't getting enough fiber. That's it.
I haven't changed anything else. No medications, nothing.
Look, can it be something else? Of course. I'm not going to give medical advice.
Bodies are weird. They're mysterious.
Obviously, no one can pinpoint with 100% certainty that it was the chia seeds. But in two months, my LDL could be back up and it was just some weird glitch.
And I'm like, hey, guys, wasn't the chia seed pudding? But what I will say is most of us, especially Americans, we don't get nearly enough soluble fiber. Not the stuff you take that makes you poop, not the stuff you can't chew it or digest it.
This is the stuff that ends up in your blood. And I measured and I was getting less than 10% of the US RDA for fiber before I started eating this stuff.
And now I'm getting over 100% each day. So I'm not saying it's the chia seed pudding, but I'm hinting strongly that it very well may be the chia seed pudding.
So if you're struggling with some rising LDL and your doctor thinks it could be the lack of soluble fiber, I would say give this a shot. Chia seed pudding saving lives over here.
And it tastes good. So it's not like, oh, God, I got to eat more fiber.
And you're putting broccoli in the blender and choking it down every day. This is the way to do it.
All right. As always, we've got some fun ones.
We got some doozies. Can't wait to dive in.
Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? Dear Jordan and Gabriel, two years ago, my wife became close friends with another woman. We also hung out with her and her husband regularly.
In that time, I suspected something was off. My wife often took private calls with this friend.
And once during a party, I had to force open our locked bedroom door and found her friend

leaning against it while my wife was in the ensuite bathroom. I never received a convincing

explanation of what they were doing. It's funny because if this happened at a party in LA,

I'd be like, they were doing cocaine. I don't know.
Maybe there's more of the letter. So here

we go. Gabe, just to clarify, this is a man, right? And his wife was in the bathroom with

another woman? As far as I can tell, man married to woman. Yes.
Okay. So he goes on to understand what was happening.
I recorded our bedroom for a couple of weeks and even at one point involved my 17 year old son, as I suspected that he had witnessed them kiss. Okay.
So poor kid. I don't know how I feel about that.
Gabe, this kind of reminds me of the niece from a couple of weeks ago who found out her dad was cheating. Yes, totally.
Not something you want your child learning about you. No, I guess that's on the wife since she apparently kissed her friend in front of her son.
But I do wonder what he means by involved his son. Did the son help him set up the cameras in the bedroom or whatever the recording thing was? Did he just ask him to like keep an eye on mom in general? Did he just ask him like, hey, do you know anything about mom? Did you see anything weird? Hopefully it's unfortunate, but maybe he needed his son's help to prove this.
I just, it's messy at best. I eventually confronted my wife and she dismissed my concerns, was very angry that our son was involved and claimed that I had a mental problem.
I stopped recording the bedroom, but I was still suspicious. Months later, I brought my concerns to this friend's husband and was shocked to learn that he shared similar suspicions and had a strong desire to install cameras in his house.
I have some used ones that are great for this purpose. Sell them straight to him.
I'll help you set them up. My son's really good at it.
Yeah. Months after that, I finally confirmed their emotional and physical relationship by finding a conversation on my wife's phone that hadn't been deleted.
Wow. So she turned this around on you, gaslighted, and you were right all along.
Tale as old as time. It's funny because seriously, turning shit around on the other person is the classic response in situations like this.
I feel like every cheating story on Reddit goes exactly like this. I confronted her and she said, you have a mental problem.
You need therapy and you're paranoid. And everyone's like, they're doing it.
They're cheating on you for sure. It is textbook definition of gaslighting.
Yes. Her friend's marriage ended immediately.
My wife claims that she's sorry and is now helping her friend, quote, as a friend, navigate her divorce. That's where that goes.
You are lit up right now. Look at that smile.
You're so happy about that. That's exactly where that goes.
I've been sitting on that one for literally years at this point. Through my initial spying, I discovered that her friend had serious emotional trauma and a history of cocaine use, which had strained her marriage.
Is that what they were doing in the bathroom? So they were doing blow in the bathroom. It could be.
Potentially. Unclear.
They could have been doing something potentially worse. What's worse than cocaine? Just kidding.
How much time do we have? How much do you like cocaine? There's a lot of things that can be worse than cocaine if you really like cocaine. Anyway, that's not what the question's about, Gabriel, you weirdo.
I discovered that her friend had serious emotional trauma and a history of cocaine use, which had strained her marriage. My wife had taken on the role of counselor for her, which might explain some of the closeness, but it

doesn't fully address the betrayal I feel. I know it was wrong to invade my wife's privacy, and it caused me emotional trauma to do so, but how does one confirm their suspicions otherwise? And should I trust her that they are only friends now? Signed, trying to discuss whether I can still trust when my wife is still pretty sus.
Oh, man, what a mess. It was nice of her to try and get rid of her friend's cocaine by shoving it up her nose.
But the rest of this is a terrible solid favor. Yeah, solid favor for a friend.
First of all, I am very sorry that your wife had this affair, that she hurt you, that she created a situation that involved your son, that she ruined not one, but two marriages. Think about that.
Although that's also her friend's fault. That woman clearly has some big issues.
This is all very messy, very painful. I can hear how difficult and confusing this is for you.
It just sucks, man. And I feel for her husband too.
Fascinating that both of you had the same suspicions and the same instincts about how to prove what was going on.

I guess it's not that unusual to want to get to the bottom of something in video evidence 2025. Gabe, I found it interesting when he said that his wife had taken on the role of counselor for this woman, and maybe that explains why they were so close.
But it doesn't fully address the betrayal that he feels. And I'm going, of course it doesn't.
These are two totally different things. Yeah, they sure are.
So what you're getting at is, is he questioning his right to feel hurt because this other woman needed support and his wife played that role for her? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's kind of the sense I get, but it was a cover for whatever was going on. Yeah.
And it doesn't change the fact that they were getting down in the ensuite bathroom, probably, or unclear. Now I'm confused about what was happening in the bathroom, making out in the hallway or whatever they were doing.
Yeah, of course not. And we all know the difference between friends and lovers.
It doesn't matter if his wife was this woman's confidant. It became romantic and she cheated on him.
But it might be meaningful that he's trying to calibrate his anger a little bit, his hurt, because this other woman needed support. And I think so.
He's a nice person for doing that. But I had to comment on that.
It might be something for him to consider. Agreed.
Look, I know you feel conflicted about spying on your wife, and I totally get why. It's an icky feeling.
But then, yeah, how else do you confirm your suspicions? Like you said, there are more invasive and less invasive ways to dig around, I guess, like talking to this woman's husband, for example. That helped confirm your suspicions.
And you can do stuff like that before you go through your partner's phone or set up cameras in the bedroom. But man, if you're looking for slam dunk proof, I guess you kind of have to invade someone's privacy.
The other thing you don't want to do, Gabriel, thinking about this now, what you don't want to do is go and ask the husband and he's like, oh, that's weird. And then he decides to just confront his wife immediately.
And then if you set up cameras in the bedroom, your wife's like, I heard from my lover that her husband yelled at her. So I know that you think, you know, you kind of want them to not know that, you know.
Right. So if you're looking for that slam dunk proof, that evidence, you really have to invade someone's privacy in a semi gross way that would be wildly inappropriate otherwise.
Obviously, the ideal scenario is to be in a marriage where you don't have those doubts in the first place. Right.
Where there's total trust and honesty and you don't feel the need to snoop. Of course.
Man, the second you're knocking on your own bedroom door and your wife and her friend are inside and they won't open up and when you barge in, the friend's all sussed and your wife is adjusting her blouse in the bathroom or whatever. The second your son is like, I might have seen them kissing in the pantry.
I think you have a license to dig around a little bit more. It's awkward.
It's unsavory. But if your wife is gaslighting you when you confront her and she's not going, look through my phone, talk to my friend.
If she's not an open book, which she obviously wouldn't be because she's cheating. I'm not sure what else you're supposed to do.
You had to find that text thread to know that you were right and you were not crazy when she was trying to make you feel like you were crazy. But let's talk about your other question, because that's really the issue here.
Should you trust that they are only friends now? No, based on the information you've shared with us, I don't think I would. I'm going to just bold highlight the hell no.
They're still spending time together. Why would the romantic element stop if they're still hanging out? Look, unless something changed between them and they've arrived at a new place, which I guess that's possible.
To be fair, I do think it's probably more likely for two women to go back to being friends than, say, a man and a woman. But I mean, maybe that's naive.
But given that this was an affair, it's messy and confusing to still be spending time, especially this much time with this person. And if she's saying this because she wants to get back together with our friend here, then continuing to spend time with this woman, not exactly helping things.
No, it's counterproductive and disrespectful. It doesn't sound like she's doing anything to show him, look, we're not involved anymore.
I've closed that door. Sorry, terrible metaphor, given the circumstances.
I apologize for that. But like, I'm in therapy.
I'm trying to figure out why I did this. Yeah, she's not.
I'm not hearing that. She's not doing any of that, at least not in the letter.
So I feel like this isn't even the right question. The right question is, do I still want to be in this marriage? Are we genuinely working on things? Are we resolving anything? Or is it time to part ways and start building my own life? Based on what you've shared with us, I think it probably is time to part ways.
I'm not hearing anything to suggest that your wife is working on things on her own or with you. I'm not hearing that she's said goodbye to this woman so she can refocus on you.
I'm not hearing that you're particularly keen to work on things. So honestly, I'm a bit puzzled by why it matters whether she's telling the truth or not about this other woman outside of your curiosity, of course.
But if you're asking because you think there's a chance of saving the marriage, then you have to be asking these questions. And you have to have a partner who's equally invested in working on things.
If she's off doing her own thing and you're over here wondering what's going on, I'm not really sure what's left to work on. I'm sure that's painful.
It's also clarifying. I'm still thinking about his son, Jordan.
I'm wondering why he involved him, if it was really the only option he felt he had or if there was maybe more to that somehow? Look, I get it. If you don't know how anything technological works and your son is a tech genius, I get asking for help.
I don't love it. Pick someone else, but I get it.
But if he asked his son for help because he needed backup and solidarity, if he was essentially giving his son a role on his team against his mother, he's recruiting his child into this drama that all else being equal, he should be protecting his child from. And I don't have teenagers or older kids, so, you know, parents will have their own opinions on this maybe, but I think I'm right.
So I'm not exactly sure what to make of this. I guess I'm just realizing that's another subplot in this story that makes things even more complicated than they are.
Because it's not our friend here's fault that his wife cheated on him, but he can control who he brings that information to and who he involves. His son is 17, so he is almost an adult.
But still, even if he were like 45 years old and his parents were going through this, I still think a situation like this calls for some boundaries, some thoughtfulness. Because I'm sure, frankly, all this is definitely doing a number on a kid, especially a kid that age.
He's like smack in the middle of his parents' separation because mom cheated and he potentially knew before dad did. It's just messy.
Yeah. The other thing that's in the background of the story is the wife's orientation.
He didn't comment on that. So I'm not sure if he knew that his wife was into women or if that was news to him.
But it is interesting that that isn't a bigger part of the letter. Either he knew his wife was bi or closeted Gabe before, or her orientation is just less important to him than the fact that she cheated.
But if I were in this guy's shoes, I think my curiosity would be even greater slash equal to my hurt, at least in the beginning. Her orientation does not change the fact that she cheated on our friend here.
But just to acknowledge every possible angle here, if she is in the process of figuring out her orientation, maybe this affair was part of that and she's confused. Maybe she's exploring something that's new for her.
Again, doesn't forgive what she's done to him. Definitely doesn't justify the gaslighting.
But I guess maybe we can make a little room for the possibility, and it's just a possibility, I could be totally wrong, that his wife is trying to figure herself out, and it's just happening in this very messy, imperfect, and ultimately hurtful way. Fair enough.
I still think she's done a lot of damage here, man. But I understand that people can do hurtful things when they're really confused.
So I hear that. I am very sorry that this happened, man.
But obviously, it kind of had to happen because something's not right here. This is not a healthy marriage.
Time to take stock of things, confront some hard facts, and accept that you just might not know the full story about your wife and this other woman these days, but more importantly, you might not actually need to know in order to make the right call. And good luck.
All right, now we're going to come out of the closet with some scandalously good deals on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.
This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Therapy can feel like a big investment and I get it.
It's not easy to prioritize something that feels a little abstract, right? But your mental health is just as important as your physical health. If your back was hurting every freaking day, you'd go do something about it.
But if your mind's carrying around stress and anxiety and burnout, what, you're just supposed to muzzle through that? Nah, that doesn't make any sense. Now let's talk numbers.
Traditional in-person therapy can run you anywhere from $100 to $250 a session. That adds up quick, and with BetterHelp, you pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, and on average, it's up to 50% less per session than in-person therapy.

But it's not just about cost, obviously.

Therapy shouldn't feel like a luxury reserved for some people with extra time and money. With BetterHelp, you can talk to a licensed therapist from your phone, your laptop, wherever you are.
And if you've got a busy schedule, cool. Join a session with a click between meetings or after the kids go to bed.
You can even switch therapists if the fit isn't right. No extra charge.
The benefits of therapy are huge and BetterHelp is a great place to get started. Your well-being is worth it.
Visit BetterHelp.com slash Jordan to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Jordan.
This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. As Anthony Bourdain once said, travel isn't always pretty.
It's not always comfortable, but that's okay. The journey changes you.
It should change you. Seeing the world opens your mind, introduces you to new perspectives, and gives you experiences that no classroom or office ever could.
And with remote work being more common, there's never been a better time to take advantage of that freedom. Immerse yourself in new cultures.
Make lifelong memories. Keep a home base to return to.
Airbnb can make that a reality. Hosting on Airbnb is an easy way to earn extra income without taking on a second job.
And now, with Airbnb's co-host network, it's even simpler. Got a spare room, guest house, place that sits empty while you're away.
Instead of letting it just collect dust, let it help fund your next adventure. A co-host, they can take care of everything.
They list your space, they manage reservations, they communicate with guests, they keep it all in tip-top shape, and that unused space could cover your flights to Asia, book you a cool hotel in Spain, even help with everyday expenses, giving you the freedom to explore more. Whether you're saving for your dream getaway or you're just looking for financial flexibility, Airbnb makes it easy to turn your space into extra income.

Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host.

Thank you for listening to and supporting the show.

All of the advertisers' deals and discount codes are searchable and clickable over at JordanHarbinger.com slash deals.

Please consider supporting those who support the show. All right, back to Feedback Friday.
Okay, next up, Gabe. Hi, Jordan and Gabe.
After a long, fraught fertility journey, my brother and his wife, Chelsea, are pregnant. They had a pretty devastating miscarriage, and Chelsea was depressed for a year afterward.
Now that they're out of the woods and in the second trimester, we've all been super excited for the new baby, and so happy for them. I've mentioned a few times that I'd like to plan the baby shower or help with it, and Chelsea has declined multiple times, saying she wants to do it herself.
My mom wanted to help too, but I told her that Chelsea says she wants to do it, let's not be overbearing. Then this past weekend, Chelsea told me that she was talking to her friends about how she basically has no one to help her with the shower and that her friends thought it was ridiculous that we weren't helping.
She told you that. That's a move.
I was shocked. I reminded her that I had asked a bunch of times, including just a few days before she talked to her friends, and she declined.
I also told her again that I would love to play on the shower. Then she started talking about how my mom hasn't asked her either and how her own mom is terrible at throwing parties.
I explained that it was my fault my mom hadn't asked because I assumed she didn't want my mom helping either. She deflected at that point and said she just didn't know what she wanted when I had asked her.
Okay, she does obviously remember that you asked, come on. But she's chalking this up to, what, indecision? This doesn't add up, doesn't make sense.
Sounds to me like she's not really taking in your offer slash she deliberately told her friends that she was getting zero help so that she could get sympathy from them. Like, wah, no one's helping me.
One of her friends is an amazing party planner, and I would definitely pick her over me to do this, although this friend lives six hours away and has a new baby herself. I wanted to be involved because I love my sister-in-law and my brother, and I'm over the moon about the new baby.
But it doesn't hurt my feelings if she'd rather have her friends throw the shower. What bothers me is how she's created this story about being kind of a victim in all of this, that we are uncaring in-laws and her mother won't help her.
And she's telling this to people I know. Yeah, that's super annoying.
And that's the real problem. This isn't the first time Chelsea has done something toxic.
Oh, surprise, surprise. All right, let's hear it.
She planned her destination wedding right on top of my wedding. That's a move.
That is also a move. My goodness.
And invited my husband's ex to do her hair for it, despite not knowing this woman well or being a client of hers, when our cousin is a professional hairstylist and was willing to do it for free. What on earth? This is so obviously transparently deliberate.
Oh, my God. OK, first of all, so she plans her wedding in another city or another country when her own sister-in-law is also getting married at the same time.
Of course, there's probably a ton of overlap between those guest lists. This is so bizarre, man.
Yeah, that's a problem, right? That's almost cartoonishly rude. Yeah, that means like I'm going to plan my wedding so that people have to choose between us and only go to one.
Well, we're going to find out who likes us more and then we're going to cut the other people out of our lives and complain about them. If it were a cousin or a second cousin, maybe I could be like, dates are hard to get or whatever.
But your sister-in-law, her husband is this woman's brother. That's weird.
Yeah, this is so strange. I'm almost having trouble believing somebody would do that, but of course, Chelsea did.
Also, hiring our friend here's husband's ex to do her hair, that means she wanted there to be some kind of drama between her hairstylist and a guest at the wedding. Oh, yeah.
It's, again, like you said, hard for me to wrap my head around. unless her friend and her husband couldn't go to her wedding.
So it wasn't an issue. Okay.
But then she didn't take the free hairstyling from the cousin that offered it. She had to pick that one hairstyle.
Come on, man. Yeah.
Or maybe that hairstylist was the only one in their state who can do a perfect twisted updo or whatever. I don't know.
I'm grasping at reasons. It's a destination wedding, though.
I don't know. It doesn't make any sense.
The only perfect Valerie the bun in their town. I just I doubt it.
So she'd rather spend more money to create an awkward situation than have her cousin who's a professional do it for free. Maybe I'm stuck on the money thing, but none of this makes sense.
Yeah, kind of speaks volumes, doesn't it? More volumes than her hair on that day. Yes.
Well, depending on who did the hair, but yeah. Depends on who did the hair.

That's right.

Every ounce of my being is going, this person is a nightmare.

But I know I should hold off until you finish reading because it probably gets worse.

God knows what else.

She's also been such a bully to my sister that my sister wants nothing to do with her.

This has taken a toll on my sister's relationship with my brother,

who she used to be really close with.

That sucks.

That sucks. But it's good to know because it's not just you, which is somehow better.
Yeah. I have a really great relationship with my brother, so it's been better for me and our family to just ignore Chelsea's behavior.
Now she wants me to help her friend plan the shower. I can't tell if she's asking because I said she was wrong about not having help or because she feels like she has to now.
She's also said some mean things to me about her friend's party planning ideas, which makes me feel like she's likely saying some mean things about me to her friend. Unfortunately, that's almost certainly true.
Whenever I notice people do something like that, especially gossip, I always try to make a mental note of it. Jen's really big on this.
They'd probably spill the tea about me if they had some juicy goss, not to feed your paranoia, but I think it's smart to clock that. Like I said, Jen's always, whenever anybody says something negative about somebody, if it not, maybe not just one thing, but like a pattern of this, Jen's always like, don't say anything to this person that's important because they always, they're a shit talker and they're going to talk about you.
Probably a wise policy. So she goes on, part of me wants to address this head on.
I want to tell her that it hurt me that she said those things, that it's really okay if she doesn't want me involved, but that what she's saying to her friends is dishonest. I also want to do this with my brother present because I feel like I need someone there as a witness because now I know that she makes up stories.
But another part of me thinks I should just let it go. She and my brother have had such a heartbreaking journey, and I don't want to make waves.
This is supposed to be about her, and I'm making it about me. Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you there.
You've been making it largely about her for a long time based on what you've shared. You're a nice person.
I appreciate that about you. You don't want to kick someone when they're down, etc.
Maybe you haven't been making it about you enough. But look, I'm going to hold off.
You're nicer than me, etc., etc. Here we are at the end.
Am I making a mountain out of a molehill? What's the best way forward? Signed, planning the shower without getting drenched. No, I think it's a fairly large Australian termite mound.
You know, those those ones that are like six and a half feet tall or whatever. Strong metaphor.
Yeah. Yeah.
Extreme. Wow.
So when you started off, you said that Chelsea had a devastating miscarriage. She was depressed for a year.
Look, I was fully on her side when you said that, dude, I was on team Chelsea. I was like this poor woman.
That's tough. This poor woman.
I've had friends who go through that. They don't leave their apartment for four months.
I mean, it's bad news. It's sad.
That's a really painful thing to go through. We don't know the circumstances.
We don't know how far along she was. We don't know what she was going through leading up to the miscarriage.
I'm curious about all that, but losing a pregnancy is an objectively horrible thing to go through. It can be quite traumatic.
I really do feel for her there. But then you started talking about how she's handled this whole baby shower thing.
And I was like, okay, I know you went through something awful. Things are looking good now.
None of that explains this behavior. And then you shared all the wedding stuff, the fact that she bullied your sister to the point where your sister's like, I'm drawing up the hard line.
I'm not talking to her again. That also damaged your sister's relationship with your brother.
All of which, by the way, apparently happened before the miscarriage. Oh, yeah.
OK. It's not like she can pin all of this questionable behavior on that.
That is a good point. It's not like she was an angel before and then she went through this loss and it did a number on her mental health and she has unresolved trauma and now she's acting out.
She honestly just sounds kind of mean. And then there's this latest drama with her friend who's planning the shower.
So my reaction earlier was more or less right. I think Chelsea is a little bit of a nightmare.
Now, look, there are two ways to respond to a person like this. The brutal, obvious one is to go, hey, you're acting like an a-hole.
Maybe you are an a-hole. You're selfish, you're mendacious, you're a little nuts, you're driving your friends and family away, you need to take a hard look at yourself.
And then there's the more compassionate lens, which is to say, people don't behave like this unless there's something wrong. They're in pain.
They're confused. They're insecure, whatever it is.
Obviously, both can be true. Me personally, I find it hard to have a lot of empathy for people who act this egregiously.
It's so extreme. It lacks self-awareness.
It's so unselfaware and unnecessary. You do this once or twice.
I'm in your sister's camp. Screw you.
I'm done. But I've also learned to make more room over the years for some forgiveness and empathy for these folks.
Because again, you know, pathological people, they're always kind of messed up underneath. That doesn't mean you have to continue to put up with them, though.
It doesn't mean you don't say something. It just means that you can be appropriately judgmental and compassionate at the same time.
So to answer your question, no, you're not making a mountain out of a molehill. In fact, I feel like you haven't made this into enough of a mountain, especially since it's coming from somebody in your own family.
Okay, fine, she's your sister-in-law, so maybe it's harder to know how much to push back, but still, it's a problem. And you said that it's better for me and our family to just ignore Chelsea's behavior, which is another way of saying that all of you, except your sister, have basically agreed to pretend that this isn't as bad as it is and given her a ton of leeway to be difficult and hurtful and frankly, just super irritating.
That's right. And I understand that to some degree.
The frustrating thing about personalities like this is they don't have enough self-awareness to realize what they're doing most of the time.

They don't have the ability to regulate themselves in a mature adult fashion.

So it's on the normal people. It's on us to cramp around them so you can keep things on an even keel.
And the problem, as you're finding out, is that only enables these people further because it's so intimidating and awkward to say, hey, you are kind of a problem. You need to hear some things.
So they just keep doing what they do with very few consequences until they wake up one day and go, oh crap, why have I driven everyone away? And even then, they might not even register that as a problem depending on how severe they are. Some people's narcissism is so great, they can't even entertain the idea that they might be the reason people don't want to be around them.
They just blame everyone else for one reason or another, or it goes through this filter of like, oh, everyone abandons me. And unfortunately, I've known a number of people like this over the years, and they never seem to see that they are the common denominator.
We are hearing that narrative, aren't we, with the whole baby shower thing? Multiple times, our friend here offered to help, and it seems that Chelsea couldn't even register that invitation. Exactly.
Her victimhood is making it impossible for her to see her own behavior, which again, super disturbing because you have to literally ignore multiple offers in order to preserve the narrative, the story that no one's there for you. But to your point a moment ago, if that narrative is an essential one to you, then it's probably because you've been hurt in some way.
So she must be getting more out of the belief that no one is really there for her than she thinks she would get by accepting their help and having the baby shower that she says she wants. Yes.
And that's why Chelsea is a tough case. I bet we don't even know the half of it.
So what is the best way forward? As it relates to the baby shower, I think you have a choice. You either decide that you want to help her friend plan the shower and you let all the crazy roll off your back and you collaborate really well with this other friend who's probably going through a version of what you're going through too.
She might be a solid partner to you in all this. You just get through this and then you're done, which will involve cramping around your sister in law for just a little while longer.
Or you bow out and you say, hey, I'm sorry, you're making it really hard for me to be there for you. And then you have to deal with the implications of that, because of course,

that's going to further her story. Your sister bailed on planning our shower.
You're going to

hear that. I think the real question is, how do I handle this person in general in my life beyond

the shower? The problem with all of this is you guys are walking on eggshells because you don't

want to end up on the wrong side of Chelsea. You don't want to make waves.
And you also don't want

to compromise your relationship with your brother. And I get it.
It sucks that standing up to her

Thank you. guys are walking on eggshells because you don't want to end up on the wrong side of Chelsea.
You don't want to make waves. And you also don't want to compromise your relationship with your brother.

And I get it.

It sucks that standing up to her might mean not being as close with him.

But that's also because he is probably cramping around her, too.

Yeah, man, everybody walking on eggshells.

And these days, that's expensive.

Man, these dad jokes are so dumb.

All right.

Hitting you in the wallet and the heart. That's right.
Yeah, to costco okay so he gotta get there early so he's a massive blind spot about before they sell out of dad jokes is that it or he has a massive blind spot about her because it's his wife yeah fair but he obviously knows that at least one other important person in his life, his other sister, won't talk to his wife anymore. Yeah.
And he's probably having to overlook a ton of questionable behavior in order to keep his marriage intact. Yeah, I would not want to be in this guy's shoes, man.
He's having a baby with this person and he's probably like, please let this be the end of this nonsense. But that's how a lot of families operate.
And then everyone else pays the price. Whereas if he were willing to say, honey, I love you.
I am here for you. I'm on your team.
But I'm seeing these things in my family. There are a few things you need to look at.
I think your relationships with my sisters could be better. You seem to have this narrative that they don't want to help all of that.
If you can see it, she might be forced to actually confront some of the stuff if you were to say that, man, I don't see that happening unless our friend talks to her brother directly and tries to help him see all this more clearly. But then it gets messy.
Is she overstepping? Is she stirring the pot? How is he going to respond? Maybe he was like, if you're going to be that way, fine. That's not a good sign.
Although, if multiple sisters are like your wife is nuts. At what point do you have to start listening? Yeah.
At what point does he listen? Exactly. So look, one option is when the time is right, maybe after the baby shower, you could sit down with Chelsea and say, look, I know you've had a very intense couple of years, the miscarriage, the baby planning, all these events, super stressful.
We all go a little nuts around these events. I'm also seeing this and this behavior.
And I see this narrative. I see a relationship with my sister falling apart.
And I don't think I'd be a good friend or sister-in-law to you if I didn't just tell you that I see you getting in your own way here and pushing away people who genuinely love you, including me. And I know that's going to be scary to say, but that's one way you could begin this conversation.
Now, of course, how she'll respond to that. That's a totally different question.
But like we always say, how she responds to something like that, that's really going to tell you a lot about whether there's a possibility for a healthy relationship here. You might have to risk triggering Chelsea a little bit in order to find out if she's actually somebody that you can be close with.
Gabriel, you know, this is weird, right? Because your choice is to either play their game forever where you're're unhappy with it, and they're seemingly unhappy with it, or you just push things to the next level and you find out, is the inevitable conclusion that you're just going to get pissed off at some point and cut me off? Because like, let's skip to that part. Right, absolutely.
It's like you're kicking up more data, even if you don't get the outcome that you want. But what you just said is so important for every kind of relationship, because all relationships go through conflict and tension, and they could always be better.
But what you just said is so true. You have to risk provoking somebody else and letting them deal with the feelings that you stir up.
And then you also have to risk provoking yourself and be willing to bear the feelings that you kick up inside of you and the ones you have to bear on their behalf in order to find out if the relationship has the potential to improve. I think that's just one of the hardest things to do in life.
It's kind of a key skill. You're ripping off this emotional band-aid.
You can either sit there and be delicate around it for years where everybody's annoyed by it, or you can just go for it and see what shakes out. And this does not get easier the longer you play along.
Right. Because you you know, when you get like an injury, like a shoulder injury, and then it's like, oh, your lower back kind of hurts and your bicep hurts and your other arm has this weird thing because there's an imbalance going on.
Your whole family is rearranging themselves slowly over time with different people breaking at different points. Man, that is a great metaphor.
So the sister was already like, I'm out. She's already like the tendon in your elbow that's sore every day.
You can't use it because you got to wear a sling because something's going on. You have to eventually heal the injury with surgery, with rehab, whatever it is, because eventually all of the other joints are going to have a problem with this.
And that's no way to live. All right.
We went through the one option where you just be a little more direct with it. The other option is to pull away like your sister has and just have less contact with her.
No contact. Perfectly legitimate option.
I'm sure she'll notice that. You might have to talk about it at some point.
Or you could find some middle ground where you're friendly but not super close and that allows you to stay connected to your brother, protect yourself from Chelsea at the same time. It's also a fair option.
I, as you might guess, think option one is the most authentic and productive approach. It'll get you closer to a more honest relationship with Chelsea and with yourself, even if that means you guys aren't as close, which I will argue you're not really close with somebody if they're pulling this crap and you're tolerating it.
It's an illusion. It's a mirage.
Also an excellent point. Right.
Maybe it's slightly more awkward in the short term and then you just never deal with her again. Cool.
Which version of distant do you want? Yeah. I like that.
But I also know that, look, any of these options is going to require a lot of courage and strength on your part. Really? You know, the more we talk about this, Jordan, I am thinking that maybe it would be wise of her to stick with the baby shower planning and just knock the baby shower out of the park so she can give Chelsea one big gift and show her that she was really there for her in exactly the way that Chelsea said she wanted, which would not just buy her goodwill for when she decides to have this difficult conversation, but which potentially could rewrite this narrative that everybody abandons her.
That's just going to remove one huge objection from Chelsea so that when they do sit down, Chelsea can't turn around and say, I was right. You did exactly what I said you would.
You know, this party could be a very useful thing. It might also be the right thing to do.
And then after that's done, then they can sit down and talk. That's good.
Wow. I really like that.
Also, it's going to be really hard for her brother to be like, you never do anything for her when you just threw the world's greatest baby shower and everyone saw it because they were there. I got worked up on this one.
I don't know if it's just Friday or this particular thing. Everybody's family has a Chelsea somewhere.
So maybe this is plucking little cords that I have calloused over or thought I calloused over. It's a great instrument, though.
I like the sound coming out of it. The screaming into the microphone.
I'm really sorry you have to deal with all this. It sucks, man, but it shouldn't be your responsibility.
But I also think Chelsea desperately needs to hear some things, and I would imagine a few other people would have your back. You're not the only one who's headed up to here.
I hope you find the solution that feels right for you, and good luck, and enjoy that baby shower. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com please keep your emails concise try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier if your niece is caught up in her parents cheating scandal your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall or you want children and your longtime partner doesn't you're trying to decide what to do whatever's got you staying up at night lately big or small hit us up friday at jordanharbinger..
We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. And speaking of email, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, comes out most Wednesdays.
It's a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered to your inbox. It's a great companion to the show.
I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at Jordan Harbinger dot com slash news.
All right. What's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe.
I'm a Polish immigrant who has lived in the United States for many years. I served over a decade in the U.S.
Marine Corps, during which time I obtained both U.S. citizenship and a secret-level security clearance.
Given recent developments and policy shifts within the government, my German wife and I have made the difficult decision to relocate back to Europe this year. Here's my dilemma.
I have friends who are deeply involved in the MAGA movement and are members of the LDS church. They're very vocal about their disdain for immigrants, often making disparaging remarks and attacking them as lazy and freeloaders.
But their lifestyle tells a very different story. They live in subsidized housing,

paying less than $700 a month for a three-bedroom condo. Their children attend a private Catholic school, which is paid for by the wife's parents, which costs approximately $7,000 to $10,000 per

child annually. Extracurricular activities like horseback riding lessons are funded by extended

family. They benefit from numerous government assistance programs, including food assistance, and the wife refuses to work, fully aware that earning income would jeopardize their eligibility for these benefits.
Sadly, I know several other families who operate similarly. Some of these individuals repeatedly claim that immigrants are a quote-unquote peasant class living off the system while portraying themselves as quote true hardworking Americans.
Okay, I feel compelled to say that not all Mormons in the LDS church are xenophobic pieces of shit, but I just, I can't with people like this. If you're going to be anti-immigrant, at least have some integrity about it.
Be a xenophobe and be self-sufficient or take government benefits and let everyone else do it, too. But if you're disparaging people for freeloading while you're blatantly freeloading yourself, come on, man.

People in glass houses, man.

My theory about people like this is that they rely, and I don't know if it's conscious or unconscious, but they rely on xenophobia to place themselves above the people that they label as parasites, because then they feel less like the parasites they're talking about. Oh, it's these foreigners.
They're the problem. We couldn't possibly be doing anything wrong.
But meanwhile, they're doing the same thing that they complain other people do. Yeah.
I'm just struggling to wrap my head around how somebody could be this blind to the hypocrisy. Yeah, I just, again, I'm not sure that they are blind to it.
They certainly try to reinforce the narrative, but at some level they must know. How could you be blind to this? You're sending your kid to private school and horseback riding lessons while you're on food stamps.
You refuse to get a job because it would compromise your welfare. They got to be doing some crazy mental gymnastics to not know that they are fully taking advantage of the system.
Part of me says to let it go since I'm moving out of the country soon. And these people have been part of my life for years, even though our values are drastically different.
But another part of me that has always stood for integrity struggles with letting it slide. In the past, I've taken action in far more challenging situations, including exposing unethical executives and preventing multi-million dollar fraud against my IT department.
What is the right thing to do in this situation? Given that I already have detailed documentation and evidence, should I proceed with reporting this to the appropriate agencies? Or would it be better to step away quietly and let it be? Signed, prejudicial and blowing the whistle? Or right to send a missile at these people who make me bristle? Wow. Okay.
As you can probably tell, I share your frustration totally. It's actually, it's wild to hear a story like this, because you usually think about welfare fraud or food stamp fraud as something that quote unquote poor people do.
And I'm sure it happens in that population as well at some level, but you don't really think of it as something that a family sending their kids to private school and horseback riding lessons would do. But it happens.
Everybody I knew who was on food stamps really needed food stamps back in the night. I mean, these are people, they desperately needed the food.
I'm with you, man. This is not okay.
But what makes this story especially maddening is that these people then hold these beliefs that are completely at odds with how they conduct themselves. If I heard people in my community talking like this at a dinner party or something, I would be throwing up in my mouth at least a little bit.
Oh, are the Haitians really exploiting our system? We know you bought these crab cakes with your snap benefits, Linda. Look, I have nothing against wanting your kids to go to a good school.
I completely understand that. Yes, you want to live in a nice place and have fun hobbies.
It's good for the kids. If their family wants to help, that's wonderful.
But defrauding the government and getting assistance and then banging on about how immigrants are taking advantage of the system. Can you just shut the actual fuck up? Maybe commit your fraud and keep your damn mouth shut.
It doesn't make it right, but at least it doesn't make you a raging hypocrite. All right, I'm done raging about this.
It just grinds my gears. Really, it's not even about politics for me.
Actually, it's not about politics for me at all. So I'm a little torn here.
Part of me, of course, really wants you to drop a dime on these people for sure. They certainly deserve it.
Anyone committing fraud, immigrant or otherwise, should not be allowed to do stuff like this, but especially people who are just blatantly being dicks about it. On the other hand, well, also, I can't help Gabe but notice, and I don't have a real indication of this as per the letter, this is a Polish immigrant.
He's probably a white dude. His wife is German.
These Mormon neighbors of his, they probably don't mean him, right? He's a hardworking immigrant. But like, okay, who are you talking about? And how are you grouping these people together? I can't help, but there's just a subtle undertone of racism here, not just xenophobia.
But is what you're getting at that they consider him a different class of immigrants or something? Yes. I think that's part of it.
But also because he is an immigrant who has succeeded beautifully in this country, has contributed a lot. He's probably more sensitive to people who are anti-immigrant.
So this hits him in a particularly tender spot. Sure.
Yeah. And I get it.
I think that's probably why he's writing it. On the other hand, though, look, I imagine fraud is fairly widespread in these programs.
Busting one family, it's not really going to do much in the grand scheme of things. So from that perspective, maybe it's a little bit pointless.
That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. Police and prosecutors prosecute people all the time.
It doesn't mean that they're 99% done with stomping out crime in the country. Obviously, this doesn't sit well with you.
Not only is it ethically wrong, but you're a standup guy with a strong moral compass. You say you've exposed unethical executives.
You've prevented massive fraud against your company. It sounds like you're kind of a Boy Scout.
And I mean that in the best way. I'm a fellow Eagle Scout here.
If I were your boss, I'd be super grateful to have you on the team, saving tons of money, protecting the team, protecting the company. Unless, of course, I was the one doing the embezzling.
Then you're just a huge pain in my ass. Then you need to go right now.
Go move to Germany. Let me embezzle in peace.
So it raises another interesting question. If it's the right thing to do in a company, shouldn't it be the right thing to do when it comes to the government? Yeah, really, there's no difference.
We all fund the government. Welfare fraud affects all of us even more.
So I think he's on solid ground in reporting them. And I would also understand if he decided not to.
I don't think that would make him a bad person or complicit or would it? Right. Because now he knows, you know, this really is a see something, say something kind of situation, isn't it? But look, if you do report these people, I would make sure you understand the implications, make sure you're comfortable with them.
My understanding is that there are a few possible penalties for entitlement fraud. They might just be disqualified from the program.
So, you know, no more food stamps or subsidized housing. Wifey has to get a job.
Finally, they might have to repay the benefits they got illegally, in which case they're probably on a payment plan. Fine.
They might even face criminal charges and prosecution resulting in fines or prison time. Although the severity of the penalty depends on the nature of the fraud, like how intentional and egregious it is.
Also, the amount of fraudulent benefits received. I really don't think mommy and daddy are going to prison and the kids are getting taken away, though, just from a sort of legal perspective.
It's going to be a wrist slap in terms of the criminal part of this. If you're OK with them facing those penalties, which you might be, then I say go for it.
What's hard about this for me is that their kids would pay a big price to both by potentially losing certain things like maybe their housing situation and also by having their parents potentially be investigated, possibly indicted, although you seem to think that they wouldn't get in a ton of trouble. I don't know anything about that stuff, how that gets determined.
I don't know. I'm not totally convinced that they won't get in serious trouble because they've been pretty blatant about it.
But anyway, that is sad, right? Because this is not the kid's fault, as opposed to those fraudsters who targeted your IT department, who are just out and out criminals. You don't need to feel bad for those people whatsoever.
I guess that's the only thing that makes this case different for me. No, that's a good point.
It doesn't change the fact that what they're doing is wrong and the parents have to know that they're putting themselves at risk by doing this and apparently being very open about it, which is what's going to bite them in the ass. But you're right.
The kids are innocent. This might affect them too.
And so maybe that's one more thing our friend here needs to factor in. So what are these kids like? Are they a-holes too? No, I can't.
Are they cool? Are they funny? I don't know. Kind of a tough one.
I can't tell how much to factor in the personalities of the people involved, because even if these families were the nicest people in the world, even if they weren't going around talking about how Mexicans are leeching on the system or whatever, they'd still be committing a crime. So I guess that's where our friends' feelings about these people come into play, what their relationship is like, what his personal ethics are like.
I can't tell you exactly how to weigh those variables. That's up to you to decide.
But if you listen to the show, that blatant fraud and grift, they just don't sit well with me either. And moral hypocrisy and a total lack of integrity really don't sit well with me.
So I kind of feel like these folks have it coming. Let us know what you decide.
I'm curious to hear which way you go. Thank you for your service and good luck with the move.
It really does sound like America is losing good ones with you and your wife moving back to Europe. But hey, maybe the world burning will look better from across the pond or maybe you're going to get a front row seat to another tear.
We'll see. And now stop being such a freeloader yourself and take advantage of the criminally good deals on the fine products and services that support this show.
We take EBT. We'll be right back.
I know it sounds dystopian, but it's true. There are hundreds of data brokers whose entire business model is scooping up your personal information, compiling it, and selling it to whoever wants to pay for it.
Could be advertisers, could be scammers, could be anybody. Talking your full name, your phone number, your home address, email, where you work, even stuff like your family members' names, and yeah, sometimes even your social security number.
That's why I highly recommend and use DeleteMe. They go and find your information on these data broker sites and remove it, and they continuously keep checking and removing to make sure it stays gone.
So if you're thinking, yeah, I can do it myself, remember there are hundreds of these data broker sites. I recommend you leave it to the pros over at DeleteMe.
Don't go around chasing your tail. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for DeleteMe, now at a special discount for our listeners.
Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash Jordan and use promo code Jordan at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash Jordan and enter code Jordan at checkout.
That's joindeleteme.com slash Jordan, code Jordan. I've got homes.com as a sponsor for this episode.
Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo. It's about the homes.
And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location.
It's the neighborhood. If you've got kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, transportation options.
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time.
And when I say in-depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide.
They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student-teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place, homes.com. We've done your homework.
If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. To learn and get more links to all the deals you hear on the show, just go to jordanharbinger.com slash deals.
Our AI chatbot can also surface codes for you. And if that doesn't work, feel free to email us, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger dot com.
Someone will dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.
Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear doozy train conductors, strap in because this doozy train is coming in hot.
Oh, I have dude. I have a 33-year-old cousin, let's call him Brad, who I grew up very close to.
I'm three months older than him, but he's about three feet taller than me, and he's always been like a big brother. Although we were close, we had very different childhoods.
I grew up having to work for everything, whereas his parents handed him everything on a silver platter. He's never held down a real job outside of donating blood, which he and his wife do frequently to earn a quick buck.
His parents pay his rent, his car, and his child's daycare, and have literally had to commandeer his bank account to ensure that his electric bill, among other things, gets paid on time. Oh my god.
How old is this guy again? 33! 33. Wow.
He has a bad gambling addiction, a drug addiction he's been struggling with for 10 years, and really low

self-esteem. My aunt has a big heart and is a very kind person, but she's codependent with both

of her children. Brad's brother also lives in a house that they own rent-free, and my aunt takes

care of his two children because he and his alcoholic ex-wife can't reach a custody agreement. He also hasn't had a job in over eight years, and neither of the brothers has any incentive to change.
The first time I ever met Brad's wife, I immediately got really bad vibes. He had just gone out of rehab for a heroin addiction, and he was vulnerable.
She's controlling, and she sank her teeth into him. Since then, it's been a downward spiral full of stressful situations that are taking a toll on everyone in my family.
So, of course, about two years into their marriage, their solution was to have a child. Fast forward to today.
My aunt, Brad's mom, noticed that his paycheck had been deposited and his account was immediately overdrawn. So she called him.
His response was that their son was up sick all night and he had to go buy emergency cocaine so he could make it through the night to watch his four-year-old. Oh my God.
Emergency cocaine. Wow.
I've never heard that one before. What a ridiculous excuse for getting high.
I can't be a good dad without the yayo. Yeah.
Oh, that's my emergency meth. I just, I didn't have a time to take a micro nap today.
Yeah. Have you heard of five hour energy, buddy? They're not even a sponsor, but you might want to try it.
It'll also help you stay awake with a sick kid. God, this guy is just a full blown drug addict.
Oh, so sad. sad.
This poor kid, up all night with a coked-up dad.

If the kid was even sick.

Yeah, good point.

That could have been a lie, duh.

Okay, so ridiculous.

On another occasion, my aunt went over to their house to do their laundry for them.

Yes, she really does that.

Oh my god.

And asked where their son was.

They said they had been up all night having a little fun

and had to have someone pick him up to get him out of the house because they couldn't take care of him. Oh man, so they're both addicts.
Great. Addicts who can't even do their own laundry.
I know, the gall. Can't separate the whites and the colors.
I cannot believe Brad's mom goes over there to do their housekeeping for them and they're acknowledging that they can't take care of their child. Hey, can you come over and do laundry? We've been doing rails of blow all night and we want to sleep till 5 p.m.
These freaking people, man. They also have one of their friends living with them, rent-free, of course, who recently got out of jail for God only knows what.
This person is dirty, but I don't think is dangerous. With the kids in the house.
Needless to say, this is not a great environment for my four-year-old cousin. I truly feel that there need to be repercussions for their erratic behavior.
Erratic is a very polite word for this behavior. This is neglectful at best, very reckless, honestly.
I know that if my cousin's wife finds out or even thinks that Brad's mom called TPS, she'll immediately pull her son away from her, which would break her heart. I also worry because I don't know if a foster home is going to be a better environment than where he is now.
He's loved, he's fed, and my aunt does everything she can to get him out of the house as much as she can. But I know he's going to have some core memories that are questionable at best.
For sure. Yeah, the math here is tricky, man.
I've tried to talk to my family about this, but our unspoken family motto is to just shove it down and never talk about the things that are uncomfortable. Why am I not surprised? Interesting theme on today's episode, eh? That's kind of like how the family's dealing with Chelsea, right? Yes.
I want to do what's right by my little cousin, but don't know if it's even my place to step in. My husband and I have been together for 12 years.
We have super stable and successful jobs and we have no children of our own. We've contemplated taking my cousin in to provide a more stable environment, but also don't feel that it's our responsibility.
We also live three states away and wouldn't even know where to begin with that process. What should we do? Signed, listen to our chagrin as the next of kin, or take it on the chin that my little cousin is growing up in a den of sin.
Oh man, what a tragic story. You're referring to the fact that I tried to rhyme cousin with sin? Yeah, yeah, that is tragic.
Or you're talking about the letter. Man, this kid's really stuck.
Obviously, I share all of your concerns. This must be incredibly hard for you and your husband to watch.
If this were happening in my family, I would be deeply disturbed. Very sad.
It's even sadder given how happy and successful you and your husband are as a couple. Yeah, that these two stories are playing out side by side in the same family is somehow, it just heightens the tragedy, doesn't it? It really does.
Your cousin and his wife, they sound very troubled. Brad's whole upbringing obviously did a number on him.
His parents did not set him up to be a high-functioning adult. They probably created and then enabled his dependence on them, on substances, on gambling.
And these addictions, like all addictions, they're obviously masking some kind of pain. God knows what that is.
It's so strange to think that somebody who grew up this privileged, who probably has very few major stresses in life, would have anything that they need to numb. But this happens all the time, of course.
Yeah, it is fascinating, right? She did say that he has really low self-esteem, which makes sense. If you've never had to work very hard at anything, I think that's a common outcome.
Everything was handed to him. He probably never had any big goals.
And if you've never struggled to achieve things you want, if you don't even want things in the first place, you don't get to form a true personality. And Gabriel, no mention of his father.
So was this like single mom doted on him, probably never addressed the fact that dad wasn't around. There's so many other things going on here that make a person like this.
I think not having that fully formed personality, not having any purpose or trajectory in your life, that can be its own kind of wound. Yeah, some sort of existential trauma.
Yeah, that's got to be one of the things he's numbing with his addiction. He's coping with the abyss in his heart or whatever.
It is sad. Okay, there's so much going on in this letter.
Let me try and cut to the chase. Your little cousin is clearly vulnerable.
He's growing up with parents who are drug addicts who can't care for him. There's a strange, formerly criminal stranger living with them.
Cocaine at a minimum in the house to say nothing of what I can only imagine is emotional neglect. I get why you want to call CPS, and it is definitely an option.
It might be the right thing to do. I'm really worried about drugs around kids, especially.
Look, that can kill a kid. It doesn't take much.
There are some potentially painful consequences to calling CPS, of course, and it's hard to know if the fallout from an investigation is worse than what he has now. I honestly don't know.
What I do know is this thing you said about how your family's way is just to shove things down and never talk about anything uncomfortable. That is making the situation worse.
And I'm sure it's played a role in why Brad turned out the way he did. I'm guessing his parents have that avoidance.
He inherited that avoidance. He chose a partner who doesn't want to talk about the important things and the rest of your family doesn't want to go anywhere near it, which by the way, the Brad dysfunction aside, that describes many slash most families.
It is incredibly awkward to confront difficult truths in a family. So I totally don't blame you guys for tiptoeing around this dumpster fire.
But if there's a way forward here, someone's going to have to say something. And given what you've shared, it sounds like that person is you and your husband because you guys are high-functioning.
You see the situation clearly. You have a fairly close relationship with Brad or you did at one time.
You love your little cousin and it doesn't sound like anybody else has the stones to do this. So my take is, I think there's an important conversation to be had with Brad, maybe his wife as well, about what's happening in their home, how it's affecting their son.
And as uncomfortable as that conversation is, I think it might be a necessary step before calling CPS. And I say that for two reasons.
One, I think it's the right thing to do. Give Brad and his wife one real shot at waking up here, turning things around, taking better care of their son before you get the authorities involved.
And two, if you do end up calling CPS, which like I said, that might end up being the right move here. I think you'll sleep a lot better at night knowing you didn't jump straight to getting them into trouble.
You didn't subject your little cousin to more instability. You actually tried and they have full license to intervene here.
It's not like they're looking for drama or they're being petty about some family squabble. There's a four-year-old's life at stake.
Brad and his wife are lucky that our friend here might talk to them directly and not just call the cops on their ass. So if they can't handle that conversation, that is on them.
Our friend here is on solid ground. The other option is you could talk to a few other people in your family and put together a little intervention of sorts.
I mean, you could literally say, look, I know our family tends to sweep things under the rug. I get it.
I don't want to deal with this either, but I am genuinely worried about my little cousin. I'm sure you agree that he deserves much better than this.
And I can't just stand by and watch his parents do cocaine all night and neglect him and put him in contact with shady ex-cons and pawn him off on Aunt Marley's all the time. I feel very strongly that we need to sit down with Brad and his wife and talk to them about all of this and encourage them to get clean, to make them understand that the whole family sees that they're in trouble, that they're hurting their son, and that if they don't change things, we might have to intervene more strongly and nobody wants that.
And I would really love your help in doing that. I love that.
If she can get her whole family involved here, that's going to make a much bigger impact on Brad. It's easy to brush off one cousin who's three feet shorter than you.
It's harder to look at 12 of your family members dead in the eye and deny that you're a hot mess when you're admitting that you were doing blow all night and need your mom to do your laundry at age 33. I also think it'll make it way less scary and stressful for her.
Yeah. And who knows, maybe their family will be very grateful for this.
They just need a leader. It'll take some leadership on your part to get your family to help you, but they might also fall in line when they see somebody who has the courage to do it.
So I think it's worth it. Yeah.
They might appreciate the leadership since they struggle to take this stuff on themselves. Yeah.
It's also possible, though, that her family goes, yeah, no, we're not getting involved. Right.
And then our friend here is on her own, which is really that's a tough place to be. But I still think she can have the conversation with him.
Agreed. And look, if you do, obviously, there's no guarantee that Brad and his wife will clean up their act, become better parents.
I sincerely hope they take in what you say. I think you have a shot.
But given everything you've told us, this whole upbringing and family ethos and these wounds, you're up against a lot. There's a decent chance your intervention doesn't work.
It's absolutely still worth trying, though. But if this continues, I do think you need to at least consider calling CPS because your cousin is being parented by addicts.
There are drugs in the house. That is a real issue.
It's not like mom and dad go to Reno once a month. They get blasted in the hotel room and come home and mostly parent the kid.
Okay, that would be concerning, but at least they'd be keeping it away from him. Brad's using cocaine to be able to stay up with his son, which is almost certainly an excuse, by the way, but it does mean he's using drugs around his kid.
He's letting some deadbeat who just got out of jail sleep on the couch. Your little cousins lock and eyes with this guy while eats Cheerios in the morning.
That is not a safe environment. Oh, God, what an image.
Yeah. Wow.
What do I didn't even think about that? They're like roommates and he has to hang out with this creep who's in their house. Look, my understanding is that CPS tries to keep families together as much as possible.
So calling them does not automatically mean that your cousin would end up in a foster home. If they decided that he couldn't live in the house anymore for a period of time, I think the more likely scenario is that they would place him with Brad's mom, which is probably the best place for him, and if for some reason that's not an option, they would probably try to place him with you.
I'm assuming someone in the family is going to be able to take your little cousin, and the system would try to reunite him with his parents as soon as possible. That might be conditional on regular drug tests or something like that.
So this doesn't necessarily mean that you would be destroying your cousin's life or anything, if you called. Yes, that's very good to remember, but it obviously doesn't mean that it'll be all smooth sailing.
And Brad and his wife will have to deal with the tense conversation with CPS at a minimum. Also, you can make a report to CPS anonymously, and they should protect your anonymity.
Now, Brad or his wife might assume that you or his mom called, but they won't be able to prove it. And if you don't tell Brad's mom you're going to file a report, then she really will be clueless.
And my hope is that they see that and don't keep her from seeing their son. I do think we need to talk about whether to take your little cousin in yourself.
I don't know. I would hold off on pitching that.
I think you are hesitating as well. I completely agree.
Not your responsibility, even if you do love him. And if you don't want to be his guardians, you shouldn't.
He's not your child. He's their child.
And it's incredibly sad. But that is the reality of the situation.
It would also be a very long and complicated process. It would probably involve Brad and his wife's support.
I mean, they're going to have to agree to let you be guardians. I think unless there's some criminal investigation or CPS intervenes or something like that, it doesn't sound like you're going to get that.
So as we often do with stories like yours, we just have to acknowledge that there is a timeline where Brad and his wife continue to be far from perfect parents and their son grows up with some very real issues. And you guys have to watch that play out.
And another fascinating theme of today's episode, you're going to have to bear the sadness and the anger, the grief that come with that and just be there for him however you can and stay close with him as he gets older. It is so tragic, it's almost hard for me to put words to, but it is not your tragedy, and there is a practical limit to what you can do here.
Agreed. And we're back to grief, our faithful friends.
But that's another reason I feel this intervention is so crucial, so that they know they did everything they could do. Also, going back to that theme of integrity from the last letter, deciding not to look the other way, leaning into this tough conversation, actually protecting the little cousin they say they love so much, that is a form of integrity too.
What you're saying here is, I value doing the right thing here more than I value my own comfort, which I really admire. I'm gonna say it anyway.
I'm so sorry this is happening. Your little cousin is very lucky to have you looking out for him.
My heart just breaks for this kid who was born into a very dysfunctional family, but who knows? He might turn out okay with the right interventions and support, which might begin with you. Hope Brad can hear what you say, sending you all a big hug and wishing you all the best.
All right. And now for the recommendation of the week.
I am addicted to lit filler. My recommendation of the week is Bose noise canceling headphones.
You bougie bitch. Look, I've tried a few different headphone brands over the years.
There are a lot of good ones out there. The tech is insanely strong now, but I've never found ones quite as good as Bose at this price point.
Anyway, they're not super, super cheap, but they're not obscene either. And they have a ton of different models at different price points.
This has been a game changer. It's changed flights for me.
Just going on an airplane, you need noise canceling headphones. It's makes working in cafes possible.
And as you know, a lot to filter out in cafes in Los Angeles when the person next to you is taking a Zoom meeting and the people next to you are watching YouTube videos on speakerphone. I can only survive in the city with my Bose.
They're great also for working out. I bring them to class.
Before class begins, I'm working out with my Bose. I kind of don't leave the house without them now.
Just a great tool. So I wanted to recommend that for you guys.
We're going to link to them in the show notes. That's right.
And I also have these. I lost, I left my other ones in an Uber, my old Sony's.
So I went to the airport and bought them before a trip and they actually are amazing. And I use them all the way to Turkey and all the way back in the battery lasted the entire time without me having to charge it.
It was only like 50% gone after 20 hours or something crazy.

Battery life on these things is great.

It's bananas.

What I love is when you take them off, they pause.

And if you put them back on, they play again.

Oh, you must have a more advanced model than I do, because I don't think mine do that.

That's cool.

I got the newer ones because they were on sale.

They're actually cheaper than the older ones.

And in the airport, somehow, I got them for cheaper than you can get them at Best Buy. It was just random.
Yeah. So I highly recommend these as well.
Also, in case you didn't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, something getting you worked up, come and shake it out over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.
A lot of fun stuff going on there. Meme thread, a lot of fun, casual conversation going about the show as well.
All right.

Next up.

So our last question today is actually an update on the rubber mallet story from episode 926.

Yes.

All right.

Been waiting for this.

So I assume everyone listening right now knows this story by now because we've talked about it so many times.

But in case you don't, long story short, a listener wrote in some time back because her ex-boyfriend, who was a violent alcoholic, he was physically, emotionally and sexually abusive. He cheated on her a bunch when they were together.
They broke up. And sometime later, he's out one night with his new girlfriend.
She finds out that he's cheating on her. They get into a fight in the car.
And then she goes into her trunk and famously grabs a rubber

mallet and takes out his knees with it in the street and then runs him over with her car twice

yeah that's the part that destroyed us yes prompted one of the weirdest moments we've

ever had on this show of just uncontrollable semi-psychopathic laughter from me and gabriel

and so her question was he's alone in the hospital he might never walk again

i don't hate him i feel bad for him do i reach out or do i stay away

Thank you. semi-psychopathic laughter from me and Gabriel.
And so her question was, he's alone in the hospital. He might never walk again.
I don't hate him. I feel bad for him.
Do I reach out or do I stay away? Yes. And our response was stay away because this guy has got to figure this out himself.
And we were kind of hoping this would be a wake up call for him, right? Like maybe he's sitting in the hospital going, how did I get here? Maybe I need to take a hard look at myself and make some changes. I'm glad you said that because she wrote in, hi Jordan and Gabe, when you started your top five countdown on your end of year episode back in December, I wondered if the now infamous rubber mallet story would be included.
I couldn't help but smile when I heard it made the list. I'm glad my story made such an impact on you and your listeners.
Definitely a silver lining after such a wild experience to live through. And now the story is immortalized as lore on my favorite show.
Truly the gift that keeps on giving. I still think about this maybe once a month.
Anytime I see a rubber mallet, certainly. So I thought I'd give you guys a little update on my ex.
Our mutual friend let me know that he did end up losing his foot. And while his legs don't work well, he is able to walk.
He often uses crutches to get around and still experiences chronic pain. Just gonna say he's lucky, but that's still pretty bad.
He lost a foot? Jeez, how tall is he now? Anyway, he might be in pain for the rest of his life. I shouldn't laugh as I read that.
I know, stop. This can't happen again.
But yeah, this is what happens when your girlfriend treats you like a house for sale sign. Just bam, bam, bam into the floor, dude.
Just runs you over with her RAV4 twice. Despite all of this, he's still up to his old tricks.
Old habits die hard, don't they? Womanizing and causing chaos wherever he goes. He's a charming guy, so I'm sure he has some cute quips about his legs to draw women in.
That is wild. Imagine using your vehicular assault injuries to pick up chicks at a bar, just flashing your prosthetic foot like, look what this lady did to me.
You wouldn't do that to me now, would you? I had hoped this experience would be his come to Jesus moment and he would turn his life around, but I guess that hasn't been the case. All the more reason to be grateful I didn't reach out to him last year when all of this went down.
Some people just cannot break out of their toxic cycles, but that's his burden to bear. Yeah, that's well said, and I cannot stop thinking about pickup lines that involve vehicular assault injuries.
Like, hey girl, I got a foot for you, just slams the prosthetic foot down on top of the bar. I got a whole foot for you.
Your dating coach background is coming out in the darkest way possible. As far as the girlfriend goes, she of the rubber mallet and hit and run.
I haven't heard for being boundaried and responsible about all this. I'm just glad this all happened far away from you.
And finally, a quick update on me. This last year was a challenging but rewarding one with lots of ups and downs.
I was not successful in shielding myself from another narcissistic partner, but I got out of it before it escalated. Ooh, interesting.
Good job. It's all learning.
That sounds like progress. Yeah, well done there.
I continued my healing journey through therapy and learned many more hard lessons. I've gotten a lot better at setting boundaries, standing up for myself, and not only recognizing red flags, but being proactive about responding to them.
I got a great job managing a fine dining restaurant, which allows me to pursue my side hustles of music and modeling. Ah, so you're hot and attracted to toxic men.
Name a more iconic duo. Just kidding.
Go on. Wow.
Way to cut her down to size, dude. We're just like building her up and then I'm sure she's over there laughing right now.
I hope so. And the best news is I just bought my first house.
It's been very rewarding to see the fruits of my labor manifest this way. And I'm so excited to put

my dream home together. Amazing.
Congratulations. Huge accomplishments all around.
I still continue

to listen to y'all each week. As always, thanks for the thoughtful insights, the willingness to

be vulnerable and the intermittent chuckles along the way. Keep up the incredible work.

And I can't wait to see what 2025 has in store for each of you. Signed, still staying away from

the to be vulnerable and the intermittent chuckles along the way. Keep up the incredible work, and I can't wait to see what 2025 has in store for each of you.
Signed, still staying away from the scene of the crime of my one-time guy who almost died and can confirm he's still total slime. But I continue to climb.
Thanks for that, friend. Appreciate the update and the kind words, and I hope 2025 treats you well also.
I'm sitting here marveling at the fact that this guy almost lost his legs and he apparently has not changed at all. At all.
No. Gabe, it's actually kind of terrifying to think that somebody this troubled could just go through a crisis like this and not question any of their life choices.
But I guess that speaks to how pathological people like this actually are. You could be almost paralyzed in a hospital room and alone and still think that you're entirely the victim.
It's scary. Yeah, very.
But if he were the kind of person who could do that, then he probably wouldn't also be all these other terrible things. Abusive, cheating, addicted and all this stuff.
If you have that capacity, you probably don't get this bad in the first place. But then if you get this bad, what does it take to wake up? If he ended up in a wheelchair, would that have done it? If he almost died or would nothing cut through those defenses? I want to say that if you lose your foot and you're in constant pain and you're still not at least a little curious about how this happened to you, then probably nothing will wake you up.
It's just so hard to wrap my head around. But also, to be fair, we don't know what this guy's thinking.
She said he's up to his old tricks, womanizing, causing chaos wherever he goes. But maybe on some level, he knows something isn't quite right.
That's true. It's an interesting question.
If you're not consciously aware of something, but intuitively, you know that there's something not quite right with your mental health or whatever, it might just be like a constantly low-grade feeling of distress or tension or something like that.

Yeah, or like Cousin Brad from the previous question, that low self-esteem, poor sense

of self, it just manifests as an amorphous anxiety.

Like a hollowness.

Hollowness, exactly.

That's kind of a hallmark of narcissists, right?

They just feel generally empty and inadequate and full of doubt, and that's why they need

other people to admire them and prop them up to compensate for that emptiness. But it's almost a lack of a feeling more than a feeling.
So I am sorry to hear that you ended up dating another narcissistic partner, but I appreciate that you got out before it escalated. You're clearly learning and growing.
You're still in therapy, learning to rewrite these patterns. That is brilliant.
I know how hard it is to change these templates, but it's on us to learn to protect ourselves from people like this, especially because they're not going to change. Ultimately, they serve to show us where we need to grow, which is the weird upside to these awful situations.
As long as you're taking good care of yourself and congratulations on all of your growth, it's really wonderful to hear. You're clearly thriving after this relationship.
You're doing the work. You're working hard.
You're leading a full and productive life. You should be very proud.
I know I am. I am proud of you.
But mostly, I'm proud of you for feeding our narcissism by showering us with all of these compliments. Way to read the room.
We take all the supply where we can get it. Of course, again, I kid, keep up the great work, keep thriving, and keep a rubber mallet in your trunk.

You never know when you're gonna need one.

Go back and check out the Jay Dobbins episodes

if you haven't done so yet.

The best things that have happened in my life and business

have come through my network,

the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself

in our six-minute networking course.

It's 100% free.

It's not schmoozy.

It's not gross.

It's on the Thinkific platform for free

at sixminutenetworking.com. The drills really just take a few minutes a day.
Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them.
All again at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website.
Advertisers, deals, ways to support the show. All at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.
I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.
Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One.
My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.
Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others.
Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.
In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show about the warning signs for civil war.
There were times when I was writing that I myself started to get terrified. Is this right? Am I getting this right? Because what I'm saying is going to hit people hard.
There have been hundreds of studies of civil wars. The group that tends to start these wars are the once dominant groups that are in decline.
The group that has been politically, socially, economically dominant since the very beginning of this country, white Christian males for the most part. America is going through this radical demographic transition from a white majority country to a white minority country.
White working class men have declined on most social and economic measures that hasn't happened with any other demographic group. And there's a subset of this population that's deeply resentful of that, that's deeply threatened by that, and truly, truly believe that it's their patriotic duty to do something about this.
January 6th was so public. It was so obvious.
This is part of a far-right, white supremacist, anti-federal government movement here in the United States. We know that some of the far-right militias, the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, and the Three Percenters, actively

encouraged members to join the military, to join law enforcement.

If you continuously portray this as these are just crazy individuals, then you remain

blind to what's actually the cancer that's growing slowly from within.

To hear whether we're on the cusp of a civil war here in the United States, check out episode

718 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.