1184: Is It Love on the Lam or a Calculated Scam? | Feedback Friday

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Welcome to Feedback Friday.

I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer the Lemon and Eucalyptus Spray, keeping these pesky mosquitoes of life drama away, Gabriel Mizrahi.

You saw me spraying that on my ankles during our call yesterday, didn't you?

That's where that came from.

Yeah, and I was like, what a fitting metaphor.

Old Jungle Gaby and his hippie ointment that probably doesn't even work.

It works okay.

The toxic deep driving away these mosquitoes of life drama just doesn't hit the same.

No.

So I think you went with the right choice.

But, you know, that stuff is way more effective.

It's, yes, it's terrible for you and probably causes your babies to come out with two heads, but it smells terrible.

Yeah.

O de pesticide, no gracias.

Yeah.

My body, though, dude, is a mosquito buffet out here.

I think I might be allergic to them or something because my whole body is covered in these huge welts.

Yes.

Does that happen to you?

Like other people just get little bites, but I get bruises.

So when I first went to Panama, I was like, oh, mosquitoes don't bother me in the United States.

And then I got stung or bitten, whatever, in Panama.

And I got these huge, huge welts.

Oh, okay.

They're different down here, though.

Maybe they're different and they cause way more irritation in some people.

But then when I came back to the United States, now I basically don't get any mosquito bites ever.

Not that they don't bite me.

I think they do.

I think that I've just gotten like a mega dose from Costa Rica, Panama, South America mosquitoes.

And so now the American mosquitoes.

I developed immunity?

Yeah, I basically developed immunity.

Like my histamine reaction just doesn't, the mosquito bites up here, they just don't trigger.

They don't reach the bar.

I don't think that's a thing, but that's a funny theory.

It might be.

I don't really know, but I don't get them here.

And when I got them in Panama, I was like, my brother, these things are little volcanoes on my skin.

They're super itchy and irritating.

That's me right now.

So gross.

Yep.

So I get it.

You don't want to have to Monsanto your whole body just so you don't itch.

I'm the same way.

On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, organized crime figures, former jihadis, drug traffickers economic hitmen gold smugglers four-star generals this week we had astro teller he is the man in charge over at google x it's not called google x it's called x but that's twitter now so whatever i don't know anyway he's talking about the magic happening over at what i used to call google x which again don't confuse it with twitter god come on come on the bay area has just you can't come up with two different names you have to have multiple things called x now that wasn't in the show anyway we discuss how alphabet's moonshot division which is what x is comes up with world-changing technologies such as internet lasers, robots that'll help feed the world, and drone delivery for everything from Amazon packages to blood samples to even human organs, which is pretty awesome.

On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and generally try to untangle the untangleable.

Is that a word?

Yeah, it's fine.

Speaking of untangling, Gabe, where are you this week?

I'm still in Santa Teresa, that beach town I told you about last week.

It's like in the southwest of the peninsula.

Of course.

yes, where the sunsets are fierce and the power grid is iffy.

Oh my god, I know.

The power did go out yesterday all day in the whole town from 8 to 5 p.m.

That was not so fun.

I went to the market in the middle of that.

I wasn't even thinking that it would be an issue.

And all the refrigerators were locked and no one was in the market except me.

Right, okay.

It was so weird.

I felt like I was in The Last of Us or something.

And then you go outside and you're in heaven.

You sent me a photo of your office and I was like, wow, okay.

Slightly chills.

Yeah.

The little balcony.

Yeah, that's pretty nice.

Gabe sent me a picture of his balcony and these two lounge chairs next to a pedestal table with a pot of his weird, whatever, yogi tea sitting on it and a view of this amazing, I know this sounds weird, but like an amazing tree with these beautiful fronds growing around it.

I was just like, which Pinterest account did you steal this from?

And is there a guest room?

There is no guest room, but you're welcome to come.

The couch is okay.

You know what?

The best part of this complex I'm staying in is they have this outdoor yoga workout space in the back, and it's built over this little river.

So I've been practicing every morning there and starting my day.

It's pretty lovely.

So you're sticking with that 6 a.m.

yoga session, or are you getting up at five like the real hard asses?

I did today.

I'm trying, man.

We'll see how long it lasts.

I don't know if I ever felt as good as I did when I was going to bed at nine and waking up at five, but it's an absurd lifestyle in this day and age.

To be fair, that is probably how we're meant to live.

Not everyone, but a lot of us.

I mean, you ever go camping and you're like, or something like it, and there's a fire and you're like, I'm so tired.

It must be like one o'clock in the morning.

And you go to bed and like you check whatever watch you left in your tent and you're like it's nine yeah it's nine eighteen or it's like eight eighteen depending on the season and you're like okay and then you pass out like a dang rock and you wake up to bird sounds and sunlight and you're like oh my god I overslept and you find out it's like 612.

Right.

Yeah.

That's nature when you're not, when you don't have city lights and noises and a phone telling you when to go to bed.

But then the problem is you can't have a life at night.

No.

That's the problem.

That's my thing.

Waking up mad early is incredible.

It's so so peaceful out.

You feel so ahead of the world.

It's amazing.

But when you're falling asleep at the dinner table at 6.45 p.m.

and somebody invites you over to a movie or your kids want to play and you're like completely unavailable, it's game over and then you're a zombie the next day.

It just doesn't work with modern life.

It'll definitely be hard when I get to Portugal.

I don't know if I can keep it up, but here in Costa Rica, things are quiet.

They're peaceful.

I'm just by myself working and I'm still integrating everything from training.

I kind of feel a little like I don't want to be around a ton of people.

So the early morning thing is working working out well.

Oh, I have to tell you something so funny.

So I went from that small town where the yoga teacher training was to this town, Santa Teresa, and I had to take the shuttle from Nosara, which is the next major town over from where I was.

So I took a taxi at seven in the morning to get to this beach town.

I arrived 15 minutes early before the shuttle was supposed to pick me up.

And I asked them to pick me up in front of this.

You're going to laugh at me, but it's like a, of course, like this like kind of ridiculous little bougie bakery cafe spit it out you're you don't want to admit what it really is a bead shop no

i also pick me up from the bead shop so i could pick up some gear before i go on my beach town no that's right got a beach i went to no sara 10 or 12 years ago the roads were dirt the whole town smelled like molasses now it's paved i was like what this town i felt like i was in la again

i went to this cafe i was a few minutes early so i ordered a tea and then i put as you know i'm traveling with all these heavy suitcases so i lugged all my suitcases onto the terrace patio of this little restaurant And I sit down at the table.

And so I go and order my tea.

I come back to my table.

When I get back, there's a woman sitting at the table next to me.

And I look at her and I'm like, I know this person.

I think this is my friend Odd.

But the thing about my friend Odd is we've known each other for years, but we've never met in person.

I think she grew up in London.

And then she moved to Brazil.

And like, we were always in different parts of the world.

We met through work because she's an actor and we met through this thing, but we've never met in person.

So I'm look over and I'm like, hey, sorry to bother you.

Are you odd?

And she's like, yeah.

And I'm like, hey, I'm Gabe.

She's like, what the f?

Yeah, yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

It was so weird.

In the middle of nowhere?

I mean, it's not the middle of nowhere, but it's like, what of all places to run into somebody?

It was just like, so strange.

She moved to Costa Rica.

She's living

in the town over.

So that's why.

It was also seven in the morning.

It was just a funny time to run into a stranger.

And then the shuttle arrived.

I see it pull up on the street.

So I say goodbye and I'm bringing my bags and I have to lug the bags up a set of stairs to get to the sidewalk.

And I'm struggling with the big heavy bag I told you about last week, the princess bag.

Yeah.

And I hear a voice from the sidewalk go, hey, do you need a hand with that?

A British voice.

And I'm like,

do I?

I'm like, no, I got it.

And I'm like struggling, but I get the bag up to the sidewalk and he's like, are you Gabe?

And I'm like, yeah, man.

Are you on my shuttle?

And he's like, no.

And I'm like, then how do you know my name?

What is going on?

Who are you?

I'm Costa Rican Intelligence and we've been following you since your flight landed.

What is happening?

This is so.

that would make more sense than what I'm about to tell you.

Okay.

Because I thought he was going to Santa Teresa and he talked to the driver or something and was like, oh yeah, some guy named Gabe or whatever.

No, he's a guy named Callum and he's like, I listened to the show.

No way.

What is going on?

I know.

It's so funny.

Look, I think it's weird when I run into a show fan in a cafe in Taiwan.

I think it's extra weird that you run into two people that you know, including a show fan, at a bus stop in the middle of rural Costa Rica.

Within 10 minutes, these two things happen.

Yeah, that's crazy.

It was really interesting.

And Callum was so sweet.

And we only got to talk for like 30 seconds because I was late for the shuttle and I didn't want to hold it up.

Super sweet, dude.

He seems really cool.

And we're in touch now.

And I hope I get to cross paths with you again, my man.

So thank you for saying hi.

That really made my day.

It was a great way to kick off.

It always makes my day when I run into show fans.

Even when, and like I've said on the show before, it's like the worst timing.

I think I've told the story many times where I'm like about to crap myself and I run into show fans then or I like really F2P.

It still makes my day.

I was in New York a while ago and somebody stopped me on the street and I was like, wow, this, I mean, it just really is the highlight of the trip for us.

And it's not because I get to go, ooh, look, I'm famous and people know who I am.

It's just cool to hear in person what a lot of people write in via email.

They'll say something like, the show really changed my life or I really liked it.

This episode or that episode.

It's great to hear that via email, but it's really cool when I'm like eating on a New York.

outdoor cafe and someone stops and says something.

It's just extra, extra, extra cool.

And if I'm with somebody else, like my wife or a friend, it just makes me light up.

And they always point out how much happier I am.

You know, how I just flip the switch upwards on my mood.

So please don't be shy.

Even if I have a sandwich in my mouth, go for it, man.

All right.

Before we dive into the dues, there was a super interesting comment in our subreddit from a listener chiming in on that letter we took a few weeks ago from the woman who was trying to convince her brother not to buy a motorcycle.

Yes, that was episode 1165.

I think it was the last question on that episode.

I found this super interesting as a lawyer and former michigander.

I don't know, but I think you guys will like it too.

Gabe, you want to read that for us?

Sure.

So, Scipio to My Lou, his Reddit name, wrote, I used to love riding motorcycles.

Then came the day when someone who was not looking at the road almost ran me into a guardrail and could have killed me.

I realized that no matter how much fun it is, I have no interest in dying because someone was looking in the makeup mirror rather than at the road.

That said, hopefully people don't have to be in that situation before they realize the same thing I did, as the consequences are often terrible.

As a lawyer working in personal injury for the last decade, I have found that any number of anecdotal stories have a hit or miss effect, but people do resonate when I explain, why does Michigan have a seatbelt law, but no helmet law?

The answer, of course, is insurance lobbies.

That is the way that they want the law because insurance companies are just like any other company.

They are in the business of making money, and they don't make money when they pay out claims.

If you're in a car accident, statistically speaking, you will live.

If you're not wearing a seatbelt, you will still very likely live, but your damages and ultimately the amount that the insurance companies have to pay for your health care will be dramatically higher.

At the same time, if you're in a motorcycle crash and you are not wearing a helmet, generally speaking, the only thing that the insurance company will have to pay for is your very low cap on funeral costs.

Oh my God, that is wild.

Isn't that crazy?

So dark.

So dark.

So dark.

So I never heard about this or thought about it, but it makes perfect sense.

I mean, all insurance companies think this way.

They deal in costs and math and probabilities.

That's why they have actuaries.

I get it, but man, that's a bleak way to view a human life.

But that's the business.

What's sadder, though, is that Michigan's laws reflect that as well, at least for people over 21.

I think under 21, you have to wear one.

In California, all writers have to wear one.

And people complain about it nonstop.

The only states that don't have a universal helmet law are Illinois, Iowa, and New Hampshire.

That's one of those comments where I was like, everybody needs to know this.

We need to talk about this on the show because I thought it was an interesting wrinkle in yield American experiment.

And I wanted to share it with you guys.

So what's crazier to me, Gabe, is there's groups that lobby like riders for visibility.

And it's like, we don't want helmets because they have stroke.

Yeah, personal freedom.

We don't want to be forced to wear a helmet by the man.

And it's like, you're funded by an insurance company that literally wants more of you to die if you get into an accident because it's cheaper for them.

But go ahead.

Go ahead, spout off, bruh.

What are you?

Wow, it's so gross somehow.

Anyway, fun ones, doozies.

Can't wait to dive in.

Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

My My father-in-law, Ernie, is going through a really rough time.

One day, six months ago, his wife of 26 years, Anne, was leaving the house with a vacuum cleaner.

He jokingly asked her if she was moving out.

She said, nope, just helping my sister clean her apartment.

She kissed him on the cheek and left.

Oh, no.

That was the last time she's been to their house, aside from coming back with a crew to clean out her stuff a couple of weeks ago.

Ernie didn't have a clue that she wasn't happy in the relationship, or at least that she wasn't that unhappy.

She formally filed for divorce a couple months ago.

Wow.

They've really only communicated by text messages since she left.

Wow.

That is dramatic.

It's like a scene in a movie.

Your wife of 26 years walking out with the Dyson and just never sees you again.

Jeez, man.

Yeah.

Hoovered the floors and his art.

So he goes on.

Yeah.

Since Anne moved out, she's proceeded to cut off every family member.

She was formerly a very involved grandparent to her son's four kids and to my wife and my three daughters.

No contact since early this year.

Weird.

At first we thought she was having a three-quarter life crisis, but she appears to have left Ernie for another man, Tim.

Tim is still married.

He also has a criminal past, including protection from abuse orders from former significant others.

We've heard he's incredibly controlling of her.

For example, he made her switch to the first shift at work, even though that meant she lost 36 years of seniority on the third shift so that they could see each other more outside of work.

He's taken her phone at times because he suspected that she was talking to Ernie.

He screams at her regularly.

Ernie shares none of those traits.

We live in Pennsylvania, a no-fault divorce state, so even though Anne left Ernie without warning and has been cheating on him, she's most likely going to be awarded half of his assets when the divorce is finalized.

We worry those assets will be taken by Tim and he'll leave her immediately after that happens.

He's still married and we believe he's using Anne for the possibility of a windfall when the divorce finalizes.

And we can't talk to Anne because she's cut us off.

How can we help Ernie keep as many of his assets as possible, especially the family home that he helped build and is living in?

How can we communicate with Anne to see if she's in a terrible spot, maybe one she didn't know she was getting into?

And how can we figure out if Tim is as bad a guy as it seems, or at least figure out what his intentions are here?

Any Dark Jordan ideas?

Signed, a concerned son-in-law trying not to hem and haw while the the skeezy outlaw tries to withdraw my father's drachma.

Well, first of all, definitely fight for the Dyson in the divorce.

Those babies are not cheap.

No, they're not.

Actually, some of them are, but they're probably some upscale models.

I don't know what model he had, but yeah, you should fight for that.

When Jen bought a Dyson, I was like, oh, this thing's really good.

She's like, yeah, it was like, she told me the amount, and I was like, are you out of your mind?

And then I started using it.

I was like, okay, fine.

I get it.

Oh, I see.

You guys have the Rolls Royce of vacuum cleaners?

Apparently.

I mean, it does transform into like 17 different things and is is like, you can vacuum a golf ball through 30 feet of garden hose.

That might, I might be mixing my.

Anyway, so this whole situation is super bizarre, incredibly heartbreaking.

Poor Ernie, man, he must really be reeling.

26 years of marriage and your wife cheats on you and then leaves you for a married, scammy POS with a criminal record with no warning.

Gabe, I can't even get over that.

She was lying to him on the way out.

Yeah.

Like, oh, no, everything's fine.

And then cuts contact.

This is so strange.

If this were me, I don't know if I'd be more hurt or angry or afraid for her.

It's so odd.

And I know I'm going to preempt the emails we're going to get.

This does sound like mental illness.

I'm just going to throw that out there.

It's so weird.

This is just bizarre.

People fight and then somebody cheats and they leave or something dies inside.

This is just the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

I don't know if it's mental illness or if this is how somebody who is being.

highly influenced and coerced behaves.

You know, he might have told her to do this and she's just trying to keep it all a secret from him, but I don't know.

There's another wrinkle to this and we don't have enough information, but he said that Ernie didn't know she was unhappy or at least that she wasn't that unhappy.

And so there's a huge question mark about what their relationship was like leading up to this.

I have to think that there was something going on, but that doesn't mean that it needed to end this way or that he deserved this treatment.

But to your point, Jordan, I am the most afraid for her.

I don't think an otherwise normal, relatively happy person would do something like this if she were not being, if she were not under somebody's thumb.

This Tim guy sounds like bad news.

Yeah.

And I think it would be wise to assume the worst about this guy.

Two people who met in a weird way, like they were at work and they worked together for 15 years and things slowly blossomed and they fell in love and now they got to break some hearts.

It sounds to me like the guy clearly has a weird agenda.

It's something he's done before.

He's been abusive before.

And even if he doesn't, he has a clear track record of actual abuse, right?

So he's dangerous.

But if you want to find out just how dangerous, I would start by searching all public records, civil cases, protection from abuse orders, criminal records, bankruptcy filings wouldn't hurt.

All of that should be accessible online or through court clerks.

And if you need some help, you can always hire a local private investigator.

They know the system.

They have access to tons of databases.

They can run a simple background check for probably a few hundred bucks.

Money well spent, especially if that information ends up helping you convince Ann that he's bad news or helps Ernie in the divorce proceedings.

If you want to get more involved, I do have some dark slash gray Jordan ideas, but you got to tread lightly here because if Tim gets wind of this, I genuinely worry about what somebody like this might do, both to you and to Anne.

It's going to take everything out on her, remember, if you get caught.

So you could track down a few people who know Tim.

You could talk to them.

They could be co-workers.

They could be exes.

That might be a great place to start.

They could be mutual friends and see what you can learn.

I might create a fake profile on Facebook and look up his friends and write to them and earn their confidence and tell them the situation and see what you can learn.

You could also hang out at his favorite bar or something and talk to people who know him, see if you can learn more.

That is considerably riskier and this is already like a movie.

You don't need more drama.

And if you learn about anything criminal along the way, maybe you make an anonymous tip to the police or something.

You try to get him busted for something, maybe something that'll put him away for a while.

If he's got a violation of a protection order or a drug charge or something, hey, that might remove him from the picture for a few days or even a few weeks and give you a window to get through to Anne.

Now, this is, we've got another crazier Dark Jordan pitch.

Find out where the guy drinks, if he drinks, which like this is like, he's the guy who drinks.

You show up at the bar pretending to be just another patron, chat him and others up, buy him a bunch of shots.

And when he drives home, you call the cops and give him his license plate number and say, you know, he's intoxicated and he's all over the road.

And if they bust him for DUI, he could be in jail for at least a day or two longer if he has outstanding warrants or has drugs or weapons on him.

Oh, boy.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's very better calls all of you.

It does sound like something Mike Ehrman Traut would do on the show, but remember, you're putting a drunk driver on the road.

So you're incurring some culpability yourself.

I like that Dark Jordan is just regular Mike Ehrman Travis.

Yes.

That's a nice insight.

But again, very risky for you.

I can't say I advise this.

Obviously, if he sees you again and connects the dots, you're in trouble potentially.

And again, you're putting a drunk driver on the road.

So I kind of hate that idea now that it's come out of my mouth.

As for helping Ernie keep his assets, especially the house, well, first of all, I want to put you at ease about something.

I'm not a divorce attorney, but I believe a no-fault divorce law.

like we have here in California, for example.

It just means that neither spouse has to prove wrongdoing, like adultery or abuse to get divorced.

That's all.

It doesn't mean that everything is split 50-50 automatically.

I know that people confuse these two things, but what actually will happen is the courts will divide marital property equitably, which is a legal way of saying fairly, not necessarily equally.

And remember, you can settle this stuff outside of court.

And if Tim isn't breathing down Annie's neck to try and get everything from Ernie, which he might be, then she might decide to let him keep the house or whatever.

The court does this type of thing by looking at a bunch of factors, how long they were married, the age and health of both parties, income, employability, contributions to the marriage, the types of assets and their values, the standard of living during the marriage, sometimes even a factor called dissipation of assets.

In other words, did one party waste marital assets after separation?

That could turn out to be useful in Ernie's case, because if he can prove that Tim is already draining her money, or just that Ann's money has a curious way of disappearing very rapidly, a judge might take that into account when dividing the assets.

So what Ernie needs urgently is a good divorce attorney, ideally somebody experienced in high conflict or potentially coercive divorces, who can make a good case that Ann is making decisions under undue influence.

This is especially true if Ann and Tim have been cohabitating.

Also, if Tim is still married and they're hiding the affair to avoid legal exposure, Ernie's lawyer could use that as leverage.

I don't exactly know how.

And I mean, I'm guessing if they're cohabitating that Tim's wife knows what's going on and she might also not have a choice, but I'm sure there's a very deft, lawyerly way to do this without blackmailing anyone.

That could be a plus for Ernie.

Now, if Ernie and Anne built the house together, it's almost certainly considered marital property.

So it could be at risk.

But the fact that Ernie still lives there and effectively abandoned it, I think that could potentially work in his favor too.

The court might let him buy her out or credit that towards his share, especially if she has no intention of returning.

So one thing Ernie could do is get the home appraised and then document any contributions Ernie made that Ann didn't participate in.

Labor, money, improvements.

Talk to the lawyer about what's going to be the most helpful here.

Also, another Dark Jordan idea.

This is definitely a little sketch and definitely something to talk to the attorney about, but Ernie could, and again, really got to be advised legally here because moving and absconding or hiding assets does not fly with judges.

But Ernie could preemptively move his assets into a trust or LLC.

Now, he's got to do this before the divorce is finalized, even before it's filed potentially, and without committing fraud.

Bold, highlight, underline.

But I wonder if that might be a way to shield specific assets from division.

It doesn't mean, oh, it's an LLC.

I get to keep it, but it might be something that you can no longer divide, or at least it complicates the math and drags the process out long enough for Tim to get frustrated and move on, or for Anne to maybe come to her senses here.

And I normally do not recommend stuff like this, but if it is legal in your jurisdiction and it prevents an abusive fortune-hunting creep from getting, say, my dad's house and money, you better believe I'm doing it.

I think that's actually a pretty clever idea, but it's also so better, Carl Saul.

You're full of like Jimmy strategies today.

Slippin' Jimmy.

Slippin' Jordan.

Slippin' Jordan.

Slippin' Jordan.

Is that Dark Jordan, but with the legal acumen mixed in?

It might be.

Yeah.

I like it.

Little con artist Jordan.

I like it.

Slippin' Jordy.

As for Anne, oh man, and how to help her, I am, I'm a bit torn.

I mean, look, she's almost certainly a victim.

She met a dangerous dude who I'm gathering is playing her.

He's definitely dominating her time.

He's isolating isolating her, which is just textbook DV stuff.

She's vulnerable.

She needs support.

On the other hand, she cheated on her husband.

She must have had some say in getting involved with Tim, at least in the beginning, right?

We don't know the details of how they met or how much he pursued her or if she feels scared or how she feels about him now, but we got to make some room for the fact that Anne chose to get involved with this guy.

Also, let's remember that she just walked out on her husband of 26 years with zero explanation.

Zero explanation.

And she lied about where she was going.

She ghosted her entire family, including her grandkids.

And she stole his freaking vacuum, Dyson, whatever, on the way out.

You're really, really worked up about this vacuum, aren't you?

What is it with the vacuum?

It just pisses me off.

You blew up my boy Ernie's life.

You got to take his most useful appliance too.

You couldn't buy your own.

Come on, Ann.

Show a little class.

No, something tells me Tim is not a stickler when it comes to how clean the carpets are.

You could have left the Dyson.

I mean, this vacuum is starting to feel like the dog in John Wick, you know, the one that the Russians kill in the beginning, and then he snaps and takes revenge.

This vacuum vacuum is going to be Ernie's villain origin story by the end of this.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

It all started with a Dyson with extended reach and adjustable suction gates.

What are we talking about?

I feel like I derailed us so hard with the vacuum.

We were trying to figure out if our friend here should reach out to Anne.

That's what we're trying to figure out.

I mean, yeah, you can reach out, sure, TBD on whether she engages.

It sounds like she's going to ignore.

Also, I am concerned that Tim is just checking her phone and he's going to blow a gasket when he sees that you're trying to talk to her about him.

And then he's going to take that out on Anne.

I mean, she might not even have control over her phone if this guy is not controlling and they live together.

I would get together with your wife and her brother.

It sounds like they were the closest to Anne before all of this went down.

And I would reach out to her in a safer way.

Does she have a private email address?

Could you write her a letter by mail?

Although Tim might be checking that too.

I don't know.

Or maybe better, can you track her down in person and try to talk to her when she's alone?

Does she have a cafe or a needle point shop she loves or something?

Where's her bead shop is what you're trying to do.

Where's the bead shop?

The bead shop is a good place because everyone's emotions are not running high at the bead bead shop from my experience.

Whatever you do, be gentle, move slowly.

Don't shame her.

Don't lecture her.

You know, don't make her feel judged, even though it's clear that she's made some very questionable choices, but that could spook her and it could push her further away.

It could push her further into Tim's orbit, which is the opposite of what you want.

I think the general message is we love you.

We miss you.

We don't understand what's going on.

We're concerned.

And if you ever want to talk, no questions, no judgment.

We are here.

We care about you.

We just want you to be safe and happy.

For sure.

What she needs most right now, I know we're all mad at her, but she most needs lifelines and unconditional support.

Yes.

And if you guys can get through to her, rebuild some trust and get her to a place where she wakes up and realizes she needs to leave Tim, whether or not she gets back with Ernie, that's a whole separate thing.

Then I would help her come up with a solid plan and leave safely.

Because as we talk about from time to time, the most dangerous time for a domestic violence victim is when they are leaving.

And we're going to link to a couple of good resources for you in the show notes to help you guys do that.

Please check them out.

Do some reading, call the hotlines, come up with a plan.

It could make all the difference.

I'm so very sorry that this happened to Ernie and Anne.

I'm sorry you and your wife and her family just have to watch all this play out.

It's very disturbing.

You guys must feel very sad and powerless.

I know I would, but you do have some options here.

First order a business, protect Ernie, get him good representation.

Second order a business, safely reach out to Ann.

and do some recon on this guy, Tim.

But you also have to recognize there might only be so much you can do for Anne here.

Ultimately, she really has to be ready to talk and consider leaving.

Sending you guys a big hug, praying that Ernie gets reunited with his vacuum, and wishing you all the best.

And now, hoover up some amazing deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

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Now, back to Feedback Friday.

All right, what's next?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

I'm a 37-year-old woman, educated, financially stable, and with a strong support system, close family and friends, a home, and solid childcare options nearby.

My career has involved working with children, and I've always known I wanted to be a mom.

Lately, I've been seriously considering becoming a single mother by choice, an SMBC, using a sperm donor.

All right, all right, I'll do it.

So she goes on, I definitely don't want the donor to be some sort of self-absorbed podcaster or some schmuck who enjoys going to EDC.

Damn, I should have just let you read the letter, I suppose.

What she really wrote is, I've given dating so many chances over the last 15 years.

Dating apps, sports leagues, setups, meeting on airplanes, using a matchmaker, moving for work.

I assume when she says meeting on airplanes, she means just trying to talk to the person you're sitting next to, not being like, meet me in Terminal 4.

We're taking an Alaska Airlines flight to Costa Rica.

Right, no, that would be a weird date.

Yeah, for sure.

I had two great long-term relationships that mutually ended for valid reasons.

Strong, rigid religious differences, long distance.

The dating climate since COVID has been pretty awful, and I'm not sure if I should keep waiting and try to meet a partner or move forward on my own.

I've done the work, therapy, reflection, SMBC support groups, conversations with friends and family, and fertility appointments.

What do you think dating could look like after becoming an SMBC?

I believe I could still find a partner, but how might others perceive that choice and experience?

How can I emotionally prepare to do this on my own, to go through the joy and the challenges of parenting without a partner by my side?

How do I navigate the judgment or discomfort from more traditional or conservative people in my life, like my grandparents, who can't understand why I would choose this path without a partner?

Or am I trying to control my life too much?

Signed, A Dreamer with a Plan, juggling life the best she can.

Wow, big questions.

Okay, well, you wrote to the right two people, me, a married father of two, and Gabe, an SMBC of a different sort, single man by choice, or Gabe, maybe it isn't your choice, given that you yelled, yes, I'm available at that interpretive dance workshop full of single women, and the only thing you went home with was a one-way ticket to yoga teacher training in Costa Rica.

Wow, vicious.

Yeah, vicious.

Maybe the M in SMBC is minded.

You ever think of that?

Single-minded by choice.

That's what it's.

Yeah, you're in an LTR with that nomad life, eh?

I mean, for the moment anyway also way to hold that dance story against me i didn't see that coming i did tell you i'd be making fun of you for that for a while a promise is a promise the point is what was my point my point was i don't know i'm not sure how qualified we are to tell you what dating will be like as a single mother by choice but like the lydias we are deep down that will not stop us from trying

so what will dating look like as a single mom I mean, it'll definitely be different, not necessarily bad, but different.

Your lifestyle will be different.

Your schedule is definitely going to be different.

Your time and energy will be a lot more valuable.

It's going to be tiring more because you can't like waste time with a bunch of deadbeats.

I imagine you'll be looking for different qualities in a partner as well.

The pool of guys who meet your criteria and needs is probably going to be much smaller.

Although I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing.

Who knows?

It might make it easier to find a partner who's truly compatible because those dimensions will be even clearer.

You know, you're looking for the exact kind of thing that you want or need as opposed to like, I don't know, I'm just dating a bunch of guys and seeing what happens.

And I imagine you'll have to learn how to communicate with prospects in a very new way, to learn how to say, hey, so I'm a mother.

I did this on my own after a lot of thought.

There's no crazy X in the picture that you're going to have to deal with.

But here's what I'm looking for in a partner.

Here's what I don't expect from a new person.

Here's what my life is like with a child.

Here's how a new partner might fit into that, which will take some time and practice.

But again, in a funny way, this could actually make things easier and clearer.

Right.

You won't be compatible with everyone, but also who is compatible with people.

Exactly.

Nobody.

It's never the case.

But the people you are compatible with, I think will probably be a lot more obviously compatible much sooner.

Honestly, I don't know how other people will perceive this choice, this experience.

There are guys out there who know they don't want to date a single mom, and that's fine.

There are guys out there who would love to date a single mom, who might make great stepdads.

There are guys out there who don't know how they'd feel about it, but if they fell for someone like you, they'd fit right in.

So much of this will be determined by the quality of the relationship.

So candidly, I don't know if it's worth trying to guess how people are going to view you as a single mom.

I actually mean that in two ways.

One, I think you need to get clear on what's more important to you at this stage of your life, having a child or remaining child-free in order to appeal to as many people as possible, which let's remember is not moving you closer to this thing you really want.

And two, I think you need to be careful about over-indexing other people's judgments, other abstract and non-existent people, no less, into your major life decisions.

I'm not saying you're wrong to wonder how people will see you.

It's a fair question.

But what I'm hearing is that being a mother matters a lot to you.

And if you believe you can do it responsibly and effectively, which it sounds like you do, then I would start learning to put your own reasons first and just put other people's feelings way down the list.

That's true of having kids.

That's true of chasing your dreams.

That's true of anything that matters to you.

It's kind of like starting a business, Gabriel.

You know, if you say, hey, should I stay a lawyer or should I start a podcasting business?

Anybody who cares about you is going to be like, dude, be a lawyer.

You have a lot of green.

What are you doing?

People don't want to see you fail.

So they're going to choose the thing that's safest for you.

Like, oh my God, you're going to have kids by yourself oh what a nightmare you can't do that without a man or whatever her grandparents said they're doing that because they care about you not because that's an accurate depiction of how everyone is going to think about you i think you're right to dig into this with her jordan because one of her other questions was about navigating the judgment and discomfort of people in her life like her grandparents who feel differently so i am getting the sense that other people's opinions matter a lot to her and look i get it it's really hard to ignore those voices especially when they're coming from inside your own family i think any healthy person would question themselves if their family members gave them side-eye at the dinner table, like, what, you're going to do this alone?

Like, are you crazy?

Do you know how hard this is?

What are people going to think?

Like, that's hard.

That's hard to separate.

Yeah, it's intense.

It's intense.

And you trust those people, right?

Because they love you.

They're not trying to talk you out of something because they want to see you less happy.

They're trying to talk you out of something because they think it's going to be a problem for you.

And it's hard not to take those voices seriously.

You also make a fair point, which is maybe they're not entirely wrong to point out how hard it's going to be or that it is unconventional.

I mean, it is.

Even if you're pro-SNBC, it is a different way of doing things.

Now, it sounds like they're probably not expressing that in the kindest or most helpful way, and they might have a lot of judgments wrapped up in their concern, but they are allowed to have their opinion.

And in their own imperfect way, it's possible that they're just saying, look, we want this for you.

We just didn't see it this way, and we just want you to succeed.

But look, whether they're being caring or judgmental, whether they're raising legitimate questions or they're just wildly uncomfortable with the idea, Jordan's point still stands.

What these people are forcing you to do is make room for other perspectives and then really listen to your inner voice and take yourself more seriously.

If you move forward with being an SMBC, you're going to have to get to a point where you say, yeah, some people, including people I really care about, are not fully on board with this.

So if I really want to be a mother, if I am sure that this is my path, then I'm going to have to accept that they're not going to be thrilled about it, but I have to stay connected to me and to what I want and do the best I can and let the rest go.

But again, that is really hard.

I know.

It's really hard.

And it's harder for some people more than others, especially people who are empathetic and thoughtful and want to feel supported and who also enjoy finding consensus.

I mean, these are, ironically, these are all helpful qualities in a parent, but I do get the sense that this might be uniquely hard for her for reasons that we don't fully know.

Making the decision to have a child on her own might be the experience that teaches her how to filter these opinions the right way and tolerate disapproval from other people as she charts her own path.

Which is also a powerful skill for a parent to have.

And that's a skill you're going to want to instill in your child too.

You asked another question.

How do you you emotionally prepare to do this on your own?

To go through the joy and the challenges of parenting without a partner by your side?

Man, that's another great question.

Honestly, I don't know if you can.

I mean, you can intellectually tell yourself, okay, there will be joys, there will be challenges.

I'll be doing most of it on my own.

Maybe that's helpful.

But until you're standing over the crib at three in the morning, putting the baby back to sleep, until your heart is bursting out of your chest because they just crushed it in their kindergarten dance recital or whatever, you won't know what it's like.

So much of life is like that.

You just can't prepare until you get there.

And what you can do is keep surrounding yourself with good people, friends, family, mentors, other moms, a therapist, people who can help you navigate when things get tough and share in the joys when things go well.

That's really all you can do.

And also maintain your own habits and practices as much as possible, whether that's seeing a close friend regularly or exercising or journaling or hosting a regular get-together at your place or whatever, so that you're also taking care of yourself.

through all this.

Maybe that's also a part of being an SMBC, working a little harder to create the community and support that regular couples just kind of have built in.

Although, honestly, I think couples have to deliberately work at this stuff too.

I mean, I know we do, and many couples don't do this.

You know, I think your last question was really insightful and also very revealing.

Am I trying to control my life too much?

Yeah.

To some degree, you have to control your life.

I mean, having a child is a huge decision.

It is a massive responsibility.

It takes so much work and so much planning.

So in a way, I appreciate and I admire that you're trying to get out ahead of all these challenges and factor in everyone's opinion.

But as you can tell, there are parts of your letter where we are going, yeah, I get why you want to control that, but you just can't.

And maybe you shouldn't.

And in those areas, you just need to let go.

And that includes controlling other people's opinions of you.

And it also includes predicting how some men are going to view you as a mom.

I can tell you firsthand, it's a wild contradiction being a parent.

In one way, you're trying to control everything about your child's life because you love them.

especially when they're young.

And in another way, you're letting go and surrendering and learning on the fly.

And you're doing both all of the time.

So maybe the real theme of your letter is your relationship with control, where you feel you need it the most, why you need it, how you go about trying to get it.

That's going to be a great inquiry for you, whether you decide to move forward with being an SMBC or not.

But if you do, I promise it'll be a huge part of the experience.

And the fact that you're already onto this tendency, which by the way, we all tussle with, I think that's great.

Follow that thread and see where it leads.

And I wish you the best.

You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

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All right, what's next?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

I recently married the most wonderful woman in the whole world.

I really like her extended family and am embracing their Latino culture when I'm around them.

The thing is, my wife's aunt and uncle recently decided to homeschool all of their children who are between the ages of 5 and 15.

I normally wouldn't have a problem with this, but the parents are completely out of their minds.

Oh man.

They are flat earthers,

believe that science is a lie and actively tell their children that school is a prison for kids.

Oh, I'm getting strong, self-appointed missionary parents with weird mineral rights land vibes from this letter.

The state and school district we live in requires that homeschooling parents provide a curriculum of what they will be teaching to the children that must include math, science, English, and social studies.

The parents submitted a plan to the school district, but instead have their children listen to self-help books and read the Bible as their education.

Look, I honestly feel this is a form of child abuse.

I don't mean the mere fact that they're being homeschooled or reading the Bible.

That's fine.

It all depends on who's doing the homeschooling and how real the curriculum is.

But if you're not teaching your kids how to read and write and do their times tables, If you're just sitting them on the couch with a copy of the King James and a Tony Robbins audiobook, you're setting your kids up to fail so hard.

This is very sad.

And I believe it rises to the level of criminal behavior, or at least negligence.

This family also owns a company and their children work there all day, every day, sometimes until past midnight.

Part of their work includes live streaming online.

I'm sure this has to be a violation of child labor laws.

Okay, so this is officially exploitative.

Also, live streaming, like the parents are making their kids promote whatever the family business is on YouTube or something, this is actually nuts.

When confronted about what they're doing, the parents have always said that their children are going to be more successful than those in school because they'll be quote-unquote entrepreneurs.

Okay, sure.

Entrepreneurs who can't do basic arithmetic, maybe.

Yeah, famously.

Many entrepreneurs struggle with that, don't they?

Yes.

I take serious issue with this.

I believe that the conspiracy theories and questionable beliefs will truly harm these children and their futures.

Their nine-year-old kid has already lost the ability to read since being pulled from school.

Oh boy, that's so sad.

Oh my gosh, these freaking parents.

That's super sad.

I want to report them to the school district, but I fear the repercussions, especially in this day and age, as I'm unsure of their legal status in this country.

Ah, okay, well, that definitely complicates matters.

Is this educational neglect?

What are my options here?

Signed, turn to officialdom to correct this curriculum?

Or mind my own business some?

Because at least these kids are getting the minimum?

Oh boy, this is super sad.

These stories, they really make my blood boil.

The Feedback Friday letter I referred to a moment ago, the missionary parents with mineral rights, that listener was the exception to the rule in cases like this.

She was curious, she was driven and resourceful and worked her butt off to educate herself and achieve later in life.

Sadly, most kids who grow up like this, they are not going to be as successful.

Certainly not if they can't even read.

So yes, this almost certainly meets the legal definition of educational neglect.

Throw in the flat earth stuff, the conspiracy theories, an exclusively religious and sort of lame-o, self-helpy curriculum, and you're basically mentally handicapping your kids.

And there are real penalties for this type of stuff, by the way.

You could face fines or citations for truancy or non-compliance.

CPS can investigate.

The court can order some kind of educational compliance plan.

Some people even face criminal charges for child neglect or contributing to the delinquency of a minor, especially if the authorities found out about any child labor law violations on top of all this.

Family businesses, look, they get some leeway in the eyes of the law.

You're not going to get arrested for having your kids, I don't know stock shelves with Lay's potato chips in your family-owned bodega or whatever.

But if they're operating heavy machinery or working super late past legal hour limits or being forced to put themselves on the internet to benefit the parents' business, that is for sure illegal.

So you do have a few options here.

You can contact child protective services or the equivalent in your state and file a report.

You can contact the school district's truancy officer or attendance department and tell them what's going on.

They might be able to compel the family to send their children to school or they can escalate this with the right agency.

You could also reach out to the state coordinator for homeschoolers in your state, report these parents for failing to follow the curriculum, testing their kids, keeping records, submitting them to the authorities as required.

And you could file a report with the Department of Education, but they might be totally overwhelmed slash under-resourced, especially these days.

And here's the thing, you can pursue all of these at the same time.

But the problem is, if you do this, you have to be prepared for there to be consequences.

I mean, if CPS came around to the House and looked into this, and if they decided that they need to get the police involved, and if they found crimes taking place, this could get really bad.

And if they're in the country illegally, man, I just don't know what would happen.

I mean, given the climate right now, that could easily result in them being deported or separated or they could lose their business or their home.

And I'm sure that would be just devastating for everybody involved.

So, man, you're in a tough position here.

You basically have to decide what is more important, keeping this family intact, even if these parents are miseducating and potentially slash probably exploiting their children in some way, or trying to give these kids a decent education, which by the way is not guaranteed, even if you intervene, but potentially having this family disrupted or torn apart.

When you frame it like that, I got to say I'm leaning toward, I won't say not reporting them anywhere.

I would say being careful, like maybe don't call every agency under the sun right away.

Try and do it through the school district first or whatever.

Because even if these parents continue to miseducate their kids, at least the kids have a better shot at life here in the United States compared to where they might be from.

And maybe they can educate themselves in other ways.

Maybe with our friends here's help, he could slip them books.

He could buy them an audible subscription.

He could encourage them to get involved in hobbies and sports and jobs eventually where they make friends and encounter other ideas and develop away from their parents.

Whereas if he reports them to, let's say, the authorities and the parents get arrested or deported, then what?

They have to go back to their country and the kids keep getting homeschooled.

or they get no schooling at all and then they have access to even fewer resources because they're working on a freaking farm.

He kind of of has to pick his poison here, right?

Yeah, I would try to find out if they really are undocumented.

I feel like that's a lot of it's going to hinge on this.

I feel like your wife should be able to find out easily by just asking the family.

Yeah.

That'll tell you a lot.

If they're here legally, that changes the equation almost entirely for me.

If they aren't here legally, I think, you know, you got to try it a little more carefully, especially if these are otherwise decent people.

Although what they're doing to their kids is unconscionable in my opinion.

Maybe they're more confused and ignorant than like malicious and exploitative.

You're the best judge of that.

This is a tragic situation.

I'd stay close to these kids if you can and work with your wife to help them however you can.

But also, they're not your kids.

You can't protect them completely.

It sucks, but that's life.

And I hope they can make their way in the world.

I wish them all good luck.

Gabe, maybe, look, in 10 years, if these kids are huge Twitch stars or YouTubers and they got a line of merch, they're making 10 mil a year.

You know, I'll eat these words.

The parents would really have the last laugh.

Probably not going to happen.

Oh, man.

I mean, that's not how this usually goes, but that would be something.

Phew.

Speaking of pimping yourself out on the internet to support the family business, now a word from our sponsors.

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We've done your homework.

This episode is sponsored in part by Audible.

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That's audible.com/slash JHS or text JHS to 500 if you like this episode of feedback friday and you found our advice valuable i invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors all of the deals discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals if that doesn't work email us we're happy to dig up codes for you it is that important that you support those who support the show now back to feedback friday

And now for the recommendation of the week.

I am addicted to Litfilla.

So this is a bit of a strange one because it's not something you can actually buy or do.

But I got emailed by iwaspoisoned.com, which sounds a little bit more nefarious than it is.

It's a site that tracks restaurant health code stuff.

And what the author of this website told me, he gave me some tips that he was like sharing with the media.

It's not always possible, but when you go to restaurants and you eat stuff, finger food stuff like burgers and tacos and wings and stuff, yeah, you're probably washing your hands.

But a lot of us, we don't realize that norovirus can survive on doorknobs and counters for weeks.

So if you eat this stuff, use a fork, because even if you wash your hands, you come back, you touch the counter, you touch your food, washing your hands, it can really eliminate a lot, of course.

But man, using a fork eliminates a lot more risk because food, of course, can be contaminated before you get it.

A fork's not going to help there, but it's very strange.

I was like, so wait, let me get this straight.

Eat a burger with a fork, eat your wings with a fork.

And he's like, look, it will help you avoid some cases of norovirus, which is interesting because norovirus, I didn't realize realize it can survive for weeks and weeks and weeks.

If you are eating anything with your hands, you are putting yourself at risk.

It's not about other people's hands.

It's about your own hands.

So especially true if you can't wash your hands, you're like, oh, I'm just going to rub them together a lot or like wipe them off with a little bit of water.

Use a fork and eat that food and it will save you at least once in your life.

It's going to save you from some horrific food poisoning potentially or from a horrific case of norovirus.

Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show.

If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, something you like, something you don't like, you want to nitpick something we said, you can always do that over on the subreddit at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

All right, what's next?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

My best friend Kate and I have been inseparable since kindergarten, 27 years of friendship.

We're part of a tight-knit group of four women who have known one another for nearly two decades.

We talk every single day, even if it's just sharing photos or doing little check-ins.

The problem is, Kate has been going through some serious health issues recently, and now every single interaction revolves around that.

Her symptoms, her doctor visits, her bad days, even minor inconveniences become big complaints.

And anytime one of us shares a struggle, whether it's about work, a new baby, or daily stress, Kate brings it back to her health issues almost like a comparison.

We love her deeply and want to be there for her, but the constant negativity is starting to take a toll.

The other two girls feel it too.

It's like we've lost the light-hearted, fun dynamic we used to have.

We want to support her, just not at the cost of the group's connection and joy.

How do I, or we, bring this up to her in a way that's kind, constructive, and doesn't make her feel attacked?

Signed, trying not to flounder and still wanting to be around her when I tell my friends she's a Debbie Downer in a way that empowers her to not let this thing drown her.

Ooh, really good question.

This is a tough one.

So first of all, I'm very sorry that Kate has been going through the hell stuff.

You said it's serious.

I'm assuming she wouldn't feel the need to talk about so much if it weren't weighing heavily on her.

Being sick, being stressed, being scared, watching your friends get to worry about a promotion or a baby or a fight with their boyfriend while you're spending hours on the phone with Anthem Blue Cross to negotiate a bill or agonizing about another round of tests or whatever.

It's got to be really hard for her.

It's very lonely.

Obviously, I can't know for sure, but she must bring this stuff up because you guys are her main support system and she needs love and connection right now really badly.

You said that it feels like a comparison sometimes.

And if it is, I'm with you.

That is challenging to be around.

It would get old fast.

But when Kate brings this stuff up, she might really be saying, hey guys, I'm struggling here.

Please don't forget about me.

I'm going through something big too, and it's not easy.

And to be fair to her, maybe her health stuff has given her a new perspective on what really matters, what's truly stressful.

Again, I'm speculating here.

But maybe when you guys talk about your challenges, there's a part of her going, man, I wish I had those problems.

Now I know what real problems are.

So I completely understand why this is challenging for you and and your friends.

I get that it's a bummer to feel like the group dynamic has changed.

And I can really appreciate what Kate's going through right now, how hard it must be for her to know how to open up about this stuff.

Before we continue here, I do think we really need to get clear on something that's not totally clear to me in the letter.

Look, if Kate has, I don't know, cancer, I'm going to guess her illness isn't that serious or you would have said so.

But if she has something potentially fatal and debilitating and she's violently ill, that's one thing.

Then I would say, hey, I'm sorry that it's a bummer and it's bringing down the group dynamic, but your your friend has freaking cancer.

She's allowed to complain.

And you guys need to show up for her right now and give her plenty of room to do that.

But if Kate has, I don't know, psoriatic arthritis or an ulcer or something, it's painful.

It's difficult.

I feel for her.

But that's a different thing.

I know it's hard to do the math on what kind of illness equates to what degree of complaining is allowed, but I think we can all agree that somebody with breast cancer is going to be a little bit different than somebody who has IBS.

Good point.

Now, I'm not trying to minimize anybody with real health issues.

I'm just saying I think it really depends depends on what Kate is actually dealing with here.

Also, her timeline matters too, doesn't it?

If this is something that's going to take, I don't know, like three months to cure and it's definitely curable or treatable, maybe she has more license to complain and you guys can just put up with it for a little while.

If she's looking at a lifetime of managing this thing, which is worse in many ways, of course, but if that's the case.

then I might also suggest that she has a responsibility to learn how to navigate this and how to talk about it in a way that's also fair to the people in her life.

That's a a fair point because the timeline also implies a different level of support from these friends and a different hit to their chirpy group vibe.

But look, all that said, I'm getting the sense that Kate might be making things more difficult for herself than she has to.

You said that even minor inconveniences become big complaints.

Now, that might just speak to how overwhelmed and scared she is, where tiny things become huge deals.

So again, I feel for her, but also...

Is she kind of losing perspective?

Is she milking this a little bit?

I don't know.

Is she not being the most thoughtful about which things to bring to which people, including you guys, maybe?

Right.

Obviously, we can't know for sure, but I've definitely seen people do that.

It is challenging.

You also said that she's just constantly negative in general, which again, look, if you are going through chemo or you can't get out of bed or your life is falling apart because you're sick, you do get a lot of slack, in my view.

But again, and I know it's so easy for a healthy person to say this, you know, we're not the ones with Crohn's disease or endometriosis or whatever Kate is dealing with.

I get it.

But whatever a person is going through in their life, whether it's an illness illness or a divorce or losing their job or losing somebody, I mean, I do think we all have a responsibility to navigate these challenges as well as we can.

And I don't mean to hit this point again and again, but like the theme of this letter is how can you be thoughtful about how you talk about what you're going through with people?

I want to know more about how Kate is taking care of herself and how is she thinking about this diagnosis?

You know, does she have a therapist she gets to talk to?

Is she looking into a support group for people with her diagnosis?

Which, by the way, I think a support group would be great for her because that might give her the community she needs to be able to talk about some of this more difficult stuff.

Also, is she investing in her life outside of this illness still, or is she fixating on all of the negative stuff and kind of indulging the impulse to complain because in a certain way, she's making this illness her entire personality?

That's the question.

I'm kind of getting the sense that she is making it her whole personality, but I also know how tempting it is to do that.

I think a lot of times people identify with these challenges without even realizing it, Whether it's a diagnosis or a crisis or a limitation or whatever it is.

I do want to be clear about something.

I'm not saying that Kate needs to, you know, like just stay positive, Kate, and it's all going to be fine.

But I'm also not saying that she needs to stop being negative.

If she were making room for both of these things with you guys, I don't think this would really be an issue for you.

Right.

She's not saying, hey, Kate, you got to stop banging on about your health stuff.

It's really bumming everybody out.

She's saying, I don't know if this is the most helpful and productive way to process what you're going through.

And can we be there for you and make room for our stuff and the joy and the stress and all of that?

Can you be sick Kate and can you also be Kate Kate?

Exactly.

So it sounds like you think they should talk to her about this?

I mean, look, there are basically two options.

Option one is you don't talk to her about it directly, but maybe you find some subtle ways of keeping her connected to Kate Kate in addition to sick Kate.

For example, maybe you make an extra effort to ask her about the non-health related parts of her life, work, family, what she's up to these days.

Maybe you joke around with her a little bit more.

Maybe you guys make a plan with her regularly and give her a reprieve from all this health drama that she's going through.

Maybe you guys can also make a couple adjustments about how much you let her health stuff bring you down.

Like, maybe you guys carve out space for her to complain and then you just trust that it's okay to move on and talk about your annoying boss or the new baby or that thing that your boyfriend said the other day that really annoyed you or whatever it is.

Because maybe part of what you're saying is that you guys don't feel comfortable doing your usual thing while Kate is struggling.

But maybe you guys are also assuming that that's the case case and you're allowing the negativity to influence the dynamic, which probably makes her feel even more negative.

And so she has more permission to do that.

It's possible that you could show her by example what it looks like to make room for both of these things, the two halves of life.

And who knows, maybe she'll start to follow your lead a little bit.

I like that.

But if it doesn't work, of course, you could go at this more directly.

Maybe that is necessary.

Which isn't off the table, especially if you give this a go and nothing changes.

It's interesting.

I've actually had a couple of friends like this over the years.

One of them was this super smart tech guy, founded a company, got really sick for a while with some kind of autoimmune disease, rough, but not fatal or anything.

And like Kate, it kind of became his whole identity.

And I tried to talk to him about it one day, and he did not like that.

He reacted very strongly, and he implied I wasn't being supportive.

And it was a bad friend and a bad person.

And we sort of just went our separate ways after that.

And then more recently, another friend I had, similar story, health stuff, also rough.

Again, not cancer or anything.

And he would talk about his doctor's appointments a lot.

Every conversation was kind of a pity party and kind of a negativity fest.

It wasn't like, oh, I got to go to the doctor, but I'll be there later.

It was like, oh, I got to go this and I got to get another test.

Boohoo.

Like he had to write to do that, but it got old.

Understandable, very challenging.

Eventually, I decided, hey, I got to talk to him about this too.

I like to think I handled it better than I did with that other friend.

Again, I'm 15 years older.

And he responded so differently.

He was like, oh man, I didn't realize I was coming across like that.

I'm sure it was a little hard to hear.

And he even said as much, but he realized he had been fixating on the negative and he didn't want to just be sick guy all the time and he thanked me for saying something and i was still there for him when he needed it and actually i'd say we got even closer after that because he he there was a couple times where he was like am i am i bitching too much and i was like no no no appropriate amount of whining that sounded like a really annoying day in the hospital bro let's get some drinks you know wow That sounds like a really nice conversation, but it's so interesting how one went one way and the other went the completely different way.

Like, what, how do you explain that?

It's hard to know.

Some of it has to do with the maturity of the person I was talking to.

One guy was really going through it and complaining because it it was really awful.

And I think the other guy was like, I thrive on sympathy.

And I was like, I'm turning off that spout.

And he was like, well, I don't want to be friends with you anymore.

That's kind of the vibe I got from the first one.

But also you were a different person in the second conversation.

And I think that matters too.

Yes, exactly.

So how well this conversation goes with Kate, it's going to depend on your approach.

It's going to depend on her personality.

The first variable, that's under your control.

I would lead with a lot of love and compassion and patience and just go way out of your way to assure her that you guys love her and that you're here for her.

And she has a ton of room to unload and just process all of it.

And then you can say, and we can see this health stuff is dominating your time and energy.

It's creating a lot of stress and negativity in your life.

And we completely understand.

But sometimes that covers up the deeper Kate that we love so much.

And we just want to make sure that you're not letting this thing define you because your life is so much bigger than this health stuff.

And we don't want to see you lose yourself to a diagnosis or whatever version of that.

feels right to you.

I like that.

The second variable, Kate's personality, that is not under your control, obviously.

Some people find it very hard to hear feedback like this, like the guy in my first story.

It can be really hard to disidentify from a struggle.

Other people, like that second friend I told you about, they can take this in and they can find a new relationship with their situation.

Whatever you do, keep moving between Kate's needs and y'all's own needs in the group there, between your empathy and your concerns.

I really do think there's a way for all of you to move through this without anyone being completely defined by it.

And I think that'll be an ongoing process.

Sending you and kate a big hug and wishing you all the best gabe it's really hard right because you want to be there for your friend but you are also like dude can we talk about literally anything else right but then you don't want to say it like that because it's like oh my god these people hate me and these are my best friends and i'm sick like you just you don't want to do that to them either it's really hard to give somebody a note like this and not be invalidating yes like People who complain, let's say about their divorce, like you got to let them do that.

But then my dad told a funny story the other day.

He's like, I got a friend who only just complains about his divorce.

And I'm like, well, that's a really hard thing.

And he's like, he got divorced in 1992 or something.

I was just like, oh my God.

My God.

I mean, that's like a totally, that's, that one's a little easier to give the note on.

There are decades.

Yeah.

Like, he was like, I remember when he got divorced, you know, it was like, he gave some funny example because it was like when I joined the Boy Scouts or something.

How many decades after you're divorced do you get to say, bud, it's time to put it to bed?

I think we're good now.

Right.

It's like, he's like, man, we go out for breakfast.

And he's like, my ex-wife, this, my ex-wife that.

That was three administrations ago.

What are you talking about?

Apparently, she's been remarried for like 30 years to someone new.

It's just absolutely insane.

But you know what else this letter brings up for me?

It makes me think about how I am when I'm going through something.

Oh, my God.

We've all been Kate at different times in our life, right?

It's just very tempting to identify with your struggles.

Yep.

I think we all have to keep an eye on that tendency.

It's fair to go through a hard time.

It's fair to tell your friends, man, I'm really, even if it's a small thing, I have to go to the doctor's appointment, I have to deal with this bit, like it sucks.

Yep.

But you also don't want to be the cate.

And so how do you make sure that you're remaining the person who can hear this from somebody if they need to tell you, hey, there might be an easier way.

Exactly.

All right, y'all.

Go back and check out the episode with Astro Teller if you haven't done so yet.

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

And I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself.

Build that same thing for yourself over at our six-minute networking course, which is free, not gross, not schmoozy.

You can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.

The drills take a few minutes a day.

I wish I knew this stuff stuff 20 years ago.

You got to dig the well before you get thirsty folks.

Build relationships before you need them.

You can find it at sixminutenetworking.com.

Show notes and transcripts are on the website.

Advertisers, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

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My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sedlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mazrahi.

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And we'll see you next time.

What do you get when you mix a fire-breathing rock god with a theology nerd and a master marketer?

Gene Simmons isn't just the face of KISS.

He's a walking blueprint for how to build build an empire, reinvent yourself at will, and turn loud guitars into generational wealth.

Bitch, you better take your pen out and write things down.

Love is the most powerful force on the planet is a lie.

Money is the most powerful force on the planet.

Maybe the only one.

I don't have a purpose in life other than making money.

KISS made everything from KISS condoms, we've made KISS caskets, we'll get you coming and we'll get you going.

I was supposed to be evil.

I don't even get high.

I like cookies and girls.

It didn't matter to me what people thought of me.

It still doesn't.

I was afraid of marriage, monogamy, and children.

I didn't want to turn out like my father.

When we first came to America, I was in shock.

People were big.

The buildings were big.

Everybody had cars.

The sandwiches were massive.

In Israel, Israel, you got to use newspaper, and they'd give you a slab of meat and a little butter.

There was no brands.

That was your food for the week.

People have no idea the great generation.

There were 100 million people that died in World War II.

Starvation, war, killings, and all this stuff.

It was insane.

People who lived through that have a completely different point of view about life and the value of things.

I just want to say it was a pleasure to talk to me.

Stay tuned, kids.

In this episode, Gene Simmons drops the makeup and shows us how chasing money can actually help society.

Whether you like them or not, check out episode 1092.

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