1158: Can Coup Against Kin Save Family Fortune? | Feedback Friday

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Welcome to Feedback Friday.

I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer The Bottle of Selson Blue helping me clear up this stubborn dandruff of life advice, Gabriel Mizrati.

It's one of the worst ones you've done.

I don't like it.

Crusty flakes

everywhere.

On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Kind of like how dirty dandrufflakes impact the shirt that you're wearing on any given day and they have to be brushed off onto the floor of your existential something.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thing.

It's such a gross visual, dude.

It is so gross.

And also that aisle of CBS just populated in my mind.

Yeah.

You know that aisle where they have the weird third-tier brands of those strange shampoos for various ailments?

Makes me anxious.

Yeah, and the more you see, the more you're like, do I need this one?

I don't know if I have too much DHT.

What's that again?

DHT?

What is DHT?

That's the reason that you don't have hair right now.

Oh, it's it bonds to the hair follicle.

Yeah, I don't have this class of issues at the moment.

No, you've come.

Come to the other side.

During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of bald people from organized crime figures, mafia enforcers, former cult members, rocket scientists, and astronauts, all bald, every single one.

That's the criteria for the show.

It just reminds me of how Balin Dupree on that show that we watched together.

That's right.

The Tourette's girl, how she has to tell people, you're bald.

She sees a bald guy.

She's in the middle of no respect.

You're bald.

So good.

On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites.

and watch while Gabe goes off and does some peak Gabe-ish.

Speaking of which, you want to fill everyone in on your plans.

I know you're packing literally.

Yeah, right now.

So some news to share with you guys.

I've decided to leave LA for a while and go traveling.

So I've wanted to do this for a long time.

There were always good reasons to put it off, work.

I'd get a job.

I didn't want to leave home or whatever, but I finally decided to do it.

I'm going all in.

I'm giving up my apartment.

I'm giving up my hot yoga studio, which was.

By far the hardest part of this equation.

Yeah.

And yeah, I'm going to be a nomad for a while.

Honestly, I'm super jealous.

It sounds awesome.

But just to answer the question everyone's wondering about, you're not leaving the show or anything.

No, I'm definitely not.

I'm still going to be here.

I'll just be recording the show from different places, but otherwise, business as usual.

Except it might be midnight when we record, depending on where I am.

We'll see.

So where are you going?

What's the itinerary?

So my first stop is Costa Rica.

I'm going to be doing yoga teacher training there for three weeks, which I'm super excited about.

Surprises no one.

Awesome.

Namaste or Nama go, as the case may be.

Nama economy class.

Exactly.

Then I'm going to go to Portugal for the summer and hopefully get my Portuguese pretty strong and walk around and listen to Fato music and do some writing and visit friends in Spain and Germany.

And then I'm probably going to head to Japan after that.

But I'm not sure.

The plan is hazy after that.

We'll see what happens.

And it depends on work and how long I can get away with this.

Jen and I are thinking about visiting you in Portugal.

We'll see if we can make that happen.

I guess

we do.

Yeah.

And I'll pack my hats.

You know, just like give us something to talk about.

Thanks.

I appreciate that.

Me roasting you doesn't end when you leave U.S.

soil.

You know that, right?

It's like taxes.

You still have to pay them even if you're abroad when you're American.

It's like getting roasted by me still happens no matter where you are.

My own personal tariff.

Yes.

Yeah.

I assume it'll only get worse.

Just those old world burns.

It's different.

That's true.

I'm actually really excited about this because hopefully you'll be able to tell us more stories on the show about what you're up to in all these places.

It'll be a whole new layer

to Feedback Friday.

Where's Gabe this week or month, whatever, and you can tell us all about the, I don't know, breath work classes and what interpretive dance parties that you're hitting on the Iberian Peninsula.

Yeah, you know me too well.

How did you know?

I already booked an ecstatic dance party.

Yeah.

No.

I don't even know what that is.

I do hope I have some fun stories to share.

One thing I do want to give you guys a heads up on.

I don't know if I'm always going to have a soundproof space to record, but I'm going to do my best and we're going to work with Jace, who's the wizard, to make the sound as strong as possible.

I hope it's not too far off.

It shouldn't be awful.

It's not going to be like, oh, I I can't listen to this podcast anymore.

It just might be a little more lively than usual.

Okay, fair.

It'll be like sitting with you in a Portuguese fish market or something.

Yeah, exactly.

Reporting live from a football match in Maricos or something.

Funny if I did Feedback Friday from the Strangest Places.

Not a bad idea.

Look, if Jace can make Larry King's basement phone chips interview sound decent, he should be able to handle a fish market.

I expect nothing less.

Yeah, you could do it.

I'm stoked for you, man.

I'm pumped that we get to live vicariously through you.

If we manage to meet up this summer, maybe we should record an episode live or something.

I think that would be really fun.

That would be awesome.

I also found the only hot yoga studio in Porto.

So if you come visit me, I'm going to drag you there.

Can't wait.

As everyone knows, I'm just a huge fan of hot yoga.

Definitely wasn't like, my shoulder hurts.

I can't go last time we had a class plan.

Thanks for not ditching us to go to a monastery in Kyoto or whatever.

I know that day may be coming, but today is not that day.

No, not today.

Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Hey, Jordan and Gabe.

My father father died in 1966 when I was nine and left his manufacturing business $3 million in debt, which would be almost $30 million today.

My mother, who's an amazing woman, took over the company with no prior work experience, kept it running, and paid off all the debt within three years.

She sold it for a lot of money, but soon started a new business in the same manufacturing area while also raising me in 1973.

I have an older brother and sister who are 15 and 12 years older, respectively.

During the 1990s, my mother transferred ownership in the company to me, my older sister, and our children.

My sister has a daughter and only child, and I have two daughters.

The split is 50-50 between my family and my sister's family.

My brother has been estranged from the family for years.

I don't have any idea where he is or if he's still alive.

In 2011, when I was 50, my mother died at the age of 90.

She left behind a thriving manufacturing business essentially debt-free, with a healthy cash flow and great and loyal employees.

My mom was also one of those old-school depression-era super-right-wing conservative people from Oklahoma who demanded her family stay together through thick and thin.

We did until she passed, and then I could actually become a person of my own.

I was finally able to see the dysfunctional, narcissistic family I came from.

For example, my sister's daughter is now 52 years old.

and has always been treated like a princess until the day came that she actually needed to work and not just buy clothes, clothes, drink, and do drugs.

Of course.

She's a supreme narcissist and a pathological liar.

Something I only saw when I had the opportunity to step away from my family, despite having a PhD in clinical psychology.

Huh.

My mother's company was so healthy, it could have run itself, but my sister threatened to cut off her daughter from my mother's wealth if she didn't step in and run the business.

My niece had no interest in that and has no skills.

But she had no choice.

So what do my sister and my niece do?

They start living out of the the company.

They take huge salaries and take money from operations.

I should have been consulted about all of this, but my sister wanted me to have nothing to do with the business.

I will admit that as the baby of the family, I trusted my family.

I trusted them to behave the way my mother taught us to behave, with integrity and fairness.

I also thought that if I asked questions of the management team, they would tell me what was happening.

But my niece and sister rule by fear and intimidation.

This was also the relationship I had with my sister.

She threatened me constantly, and she is a scary bitch, let me tell you.

Our employees were at the mercy of my niece and her volatile outbursts, and were threatened with being fired if they talked to me at all.

So until last year, I had no idea of the degree and scale of lying, cheating, and stealing that had been taking place since my mother's death.

My niece has ruined the company's reputation, placed it in the most precarious financial situation you can imagine, and continues to take advantage of everyone and she can.

For example, her latest request is that she wants to get her brand new Escalade wrapped to the tune of $5,000 because she doesn't like the color and is trying to run it through the company.

She already runs her monthly $2,200 lease payment through the company.

In the meantime, she told the operations VP that she thinks they should cut the employees' benefits packages and 401k because the cash flow is so bad.

Oh man.

Eventually, the management team had enough.

They started talking to me.

Boy, did they talk.

And now the house of cards is about to fall.

There's been a clear breach of fiduciary responsibility and it's been documented.

I'm now in a position to lead the faithful and restore my mother's company to its former reputation.

In the next few months, there will basically be a coup.

Sadly, this is not something that can happen in a reasonable manner.

My niece has demonstrated time and time again that she is unstable.

Plus she lies about everything.

I have an amazing management team led by the VP of operations who basically runs the place and has worked for my mother for 22 years.

The comptroller, another veteran who has every dollar accounted for on spreadsheets that would make your eyes cross, and my attorney, who's ready to help us put this plan in motion legally.

But I don't want to storm the castle without having a plan in place.

I'm all about the art of war.

We can't miss.

Right.

I'm thinking of going into her office with a show of force by the critical players, me, my attorney, the comptroller, and perhaps our current CPA.

demonstrating some of the most important elements of the breach in an undeniable document.

I I know she will lose her shit, but the team's concern is that we're gonna swing and miss.

My niece is slippery and seems to weasel her way out of difficult situations.

They've seen this happen repeatedly.

I think this fear reflects their more personal concerns that somehow she won't leave, they'll lose their jobs, and the company will fail.

They've worked so hard to hold this company together, and I don't want to disappoint them.

How can I successfully execute this plan to remove my niece from the business?

Signed, assembling a crew, having accrued evidence up the wazoo to pull off this coup after this breach of Fidoodoo.

No, breach of Fidoodu.

Really, Gabe?

You're going to call me out for that?

This is a serious podcast.

This is a legal question.

I think all of that went out the window when we started with the Kalulu with the Dolulu.

Yeah, we really opened Pandora's box with that one, but my God, breach of Fidoodoo.

I don't know how I'm going to get through the rest of this segment here.

This is ridiculous.

She's got a su-suit for the

I'm afraid she does, but we'll get to that in a second.

Man, what a story and what a mess.

This is fascinating.

You've got your own little succession drama going on over here.

I got to say, your mom sounds like a remarkable woman.

She really was.

To lose a husband so early on, turn around his company, sell the company, start another company, make that one even more successful, creating generational wealth, which your niece is now busy squandering, all while raising young kids as a widow, and then leave you guys that legacy.

That is just insanely impressive.

She must have been quite a a powerhouse.

Super interesting mom to have, even with all the flaws, it sounds like was present here.

But man, what's happened since she handed off the business, that is really unfortunate.

Your sister and niece sound like very difficult people to deal with, dangerous people to be in business with, that's for damn sure.

And I'm sorry they've done such a number on the company.

I can't even imagine how maddening and gross it must have been to discover that they've essentially been treating your mom's business, the family business, as their piggy bank for dumb crap.

It's unconscionable.

Yeah.

I love your determination, your thoughtfulness about how to carry out this plan.

If everything you said is true, which sure seems like it is, I obviously share your view that these two have got to go.

And it would be so sweet if you could rescue this company and turn it around the way your mom did after your dad passed away.

That would be quite a story.

We wanted an expert's opinion about all this.

We reached out to Patty Eberwein, a business litigation attorney specializing in commercial disputes.

And Patty's take was, your story is quite interesting and she totally understood your sentiment.

But unfortunately, storming into the business and taking it over by coup, that doesn't really work.

As Patty explained to us, that's just not how corporations run.

You can't just kick someone out of a company like a patron in a bar.

If your company is a corporation, it's governed by the board of directors.

If it's a limited liability company in the LLC, it's governed by the managing member.

So the first thing you need to do is look at the governing documents of the company.

the articles of incorporation and or the company bylaws and see who holds the power to remove officers of the company.

Patty said you have two basic options here.

Option one, you remove your sister and niece through the process allowed by the company's governing documents.

Option two, you carry out this quote-unquote coup through the legal process by suing them in court.

Patty explained to us that these types of cases tend to contain three major causes of action.

One, breach of fiduciary duty of loyalty, which you're already on to.

You almost wanted to say fidu.

Really stepped very carefully around it.

Another is conversion, which is civil theft, basically stealing from the company.

And the third is negligence, how the defendant executed their duties to the company.

Although Patty said this can be a tough one.

So to get tactical, here's how Patty said the process usually goes.

Step one, get proof of your sister and or niece's wrongdoing.

And it sounds like you've already done this with the help of your team, which is great.

You can also gather more information through the formal records request procedure for the company.

If the company is a corporation, you have a right as a shareholder and potentially a director to get all of the financial records of the company.

Patty said you should request them under the formal process of the company's governing documents.

And an LLC will have a similar process for owners or members of the company.

Step two, you review the governing documents, you learn how they provide for removing cheating officers of the company.

If there's evidence in the financial records of rife abuse and breaches of fiduciary duty, then Patty said you should see if there's any internal process in the company for removing members, directors, employees who pilfer from the company.

For example, if your niece is only an employee, if she doesn't actually own any part of the company, Patty said she can be fired by the board of directors.

If there is no board of directors or if your sister and niece are on the board, then you need to take the dispute to court, which brings us to step three, which is you file a complaint in your state court seeking an accounting of the company and suing your sister and or niece for the relevant causes of action.

The complaint against your sister and niece, it'll probably ask the court to relinquish their ownership interests in the company, get an accurate accounting of the company, and sue them for breaches of fiduciary duty to the company.

And that's where the coup really begins.

Of course, Patty said you'll need to get a lawyer in your state or in the state where the company is based.

You mentioned that you have one already.

That is great.

I'm not sure if that person is just helping out or if they're the counsel to the company or if they specialize in this kind of litigation, but one way or another, you really do need a lawyer with experience here.

Now, you should know this might take a while.

It depends on how clogged up the court is in your state.

Patty's guess is it would take about a year in a state like Oklahoma and California.

It might even take two years, and it would probably be moderately expensive.

Patty's rough guess was maybe 20 to 30K in legal fees, depending on how much your sister and niece fight back, whether they engage with their own attorney, et cetera.

Just drafting the complaint itself is going to be like three to five grand.

Patty's hope is that just filing the lawsuit would force your aunt and niece to cave and agree to settle.

Now, Patty told us about an interesting wrinkle to all this based on what your company's governing documents say.

A lot of time, a cheating member of a company, they can be forced to pay the legal fees for a lawsuit required to kick the cheater out.

Now, obviously, that could be very helpful in forcing your sister and niece to leave quickly and quietly.

And Patty's take, if the governing documents say that, then you and your team could, ever so tactfully, of course, tell them that this could be a very expensive process that they should resolve now.

She would, however, not advise you to say that they'd be forced to pay legal fees because in her experience, some courts look down on that.

It can be seen as bullying or extortionate, even if it's true, which I find kind of weird, but I guess courts don't like it when it's like, hey, by the way, I'm going to make it look like you're wrong and then you have to pay my legal bills.

You want people to come to the table and not be afraid to fight for themselves, even if they are kind of pieces of crap like your niece and your sister.

Oh, man.

I'm hoping that these people are not going to put up a fight.

They don't sound like great executives.

They're going to want to cling to the company, but they might be so spooked by the prospect of legal action that they might just want to step away.

That would be the best case scenario, I think.

But yeah, all good advice.

Patty Eberwein's spitting facts today.

I've known Patty for years.

I always knew she was brilliant, but man, she was really a font of wisdom on this topic.

So that's the legal side of things.

I just want to touch very briefly on the other part of your story, which is these complicated family dynamics.

Jordan, I find it so fascinating that our friend here was able to step away from the family when her mom died.

And it was only then that she was like, oh my God, these people are so dysfunctional.

There's so much narcissism.

Like she didn't see any of that clearly.

And she was actually like, had a background in this stuff.

Yeah, that is interesting.

When she was like, I only realized my niece niece was pathological when I stepped away from the family despite having a PhD in clinical psychology.

I was like, man, I guess it really is hard to see this stuff in your own family, even if you are trained.

Even if you're a doctor, yeah.

I'm really glad she was able to do that.

And I'm also glad that she has a relationship with these employees that allowed her to finally get to the bottom of all this.

I'm just realizing that this coup is the first step in what will probably be a long process of healing and growing as a company.

If she manages to take the reins, a big part of the turnaround that she's hoping to lead is probably going to be setting a very different tone at this place, you know, like changing the culture pretty dramatically.

Yeah.

And I think that means a few things.

It means creating an environment where people are not too scared to speak up when they see something wrong or dysfunctional or legal, opening the lines of communication in general, because it sounds like people were really afraid to speak up, putting some new processes and values in place to prevent breaches like this from happening in the future.

Although if she's at the helm, I doubt that this would happen.

It doesn't sound like she's that kind of leader.

There's always the possibility of other bad actors down the line or someone gets the idea to embezzle or whatever it is.

And another thing she probably wants to do is make employees and leadership feel valued and heard and safe, which, by the way, might include an acknowledgement and an apology for taking a back seat and allowing her sister and her niece to do all of this damage.

I know all of this was not her fault, but I bet it would be powerful for them to see her take accountability.

for her limited role in all of this and apologize for what they had to go through because these people have probably been through a lot with the sister and the niece at the helm.

And then, yeah, just assuring the staff that the management style of her sister and the niece is gone and making it clear to them that it's a new day and there's a very different culture, very different tone at this place now.

I think this is an opportunity really just to not just clean up the mess and write the ship, but to shape this company the way she wants to shape it and maybe take some inspiration from what her mom had to do when she took over the dad's company.

That is...

such an inspiring example to follow.

And I bet there are some incredible management lessons in there.

So I just want to acknowledge that is part of the healing here too.

And it's also part of securing her employees' passion and their loyalty as she takes over from this very dysfunctional chapter.

For sure.

She definitely, she has her work cut out for her.

This won't be easy.

It might take a while.

But she also has an incredible opportunity here.

And if she pulls this off, starting with getting her ducks in a row legally for this coup, something tells me she's going to achieve some remarkable things.

I just really hope these dumpster fires and their grubby hands get the message early and bow out before this gets messy, or that our friend here can easily remove them.

But she might have to prepare for a bit of a fight in a drawn-out process, which I do think is probably worth waging because this can't continue.

There's a lot at stake here.

I just want to see these two get their comeuppance, and I really want to see her shine.

So go do your homework, put together your plan, prepare for the worst, surround yourself with good people and resources, and trust that this will turn out all right.

Crossing my fingers that a judge and/or a jury finds the preponderé ray of the Evidé Day shows that she was in brie brie of fiduciary doo-doo

if you'll pardon the legalese god dude that was one of my top 10 moments of the show that was so good what are you talking about i can't believe you gave me shit at the top of this segment you come out with preponder

of the evidence oh my god that's right good luck my friend Big thanks to Patty Eberwein for her experience and wisdom here for business disputes in California.

Patty can be contacted through her firm, Brown Neary, Smith and Khan, LLP at bnsklaw.com.

You know what isn't a brie brief of fiduciary due-doo.

You know what's weird?

It's duty rhymes.

You don't even have to change it.

It just sounds dumber when you do.

Anyway, taking advantage of the D Ds and disc cow cows and the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

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So stupid.

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Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Okay, I'm done with that nonsense.

What's next?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

I'm good friends with my ex-husband, and he's been in a relationship with his partner for six years.

Lately, things have gotten really difficult between them.

There's constant friction.

She criticizes him, explodes at him for the smallest thing, often chucking him out of her house in the early hours of the morning, and belittles him in front of his friends and her children.

She accuses him of the most awful things, including ruining her children's lives.

He's a good man, and there are a lot of people who would testify to this.

None of what she says rings true.

Because of a complicated history, they now live apart, but she works two days a week from home, so he'll go down to where she lives, a two-hour journey, and look after her kids while she's away.

She works in education, so has the school holidays off.

When it's term time, things between them seem okay, although the constant badmouthing is always there.

But as soon as the school holidays approach, she finds a reason to kick him out.

Then she lets him make up with her and say sorry, which always falls to him, just in time for the new school term and her free childcare.

My ex is a good man and does everything for her and her kids, often to the detriment of spending time with the son we have together.

Every time he's kicked out, I'm the first to hear about it.

I'm happy to lend an ear, but what I'm seeing from the outside is a toxic and perhaps abusive relationship that he's stuck in.

I've tried my best from every angle I can think of to give him the courage to really look at his relationship.

When things are bad, he agrees and says all the right things about ending it and focusing on his mental health.

He knows it's a harmful relationship, but he can't help himself.

He ends up back with her, ready for the cycle to start all over again.

I can see the damage that this is causing, not only for him, but also for her children, who are caught up in the instability, and for my son, who's starting to doubt that his dad is a good role model.

Do you have any advice about what I can say to finally convince him that he's worth more than this?

Signed, Liberating My Ex from the Hex of this Vexed Complex.

Man, good question.

This is really hard.

It's so tough to watch somebody you care about stay in a dysfunctional relationship, especially when they know that it's dysfunctional.

It's got to be even harder when that person is your co-parent, their close friend.

And by the way, so awesome that you guys are still friends.

That is so rare.

I love that you guys have managed to build a solid friendship after getting divorced.

But yeah, the stakes here are high.

His relationship with his girlfriend isn't just hurting him.

It's also compromising his relationship with your son.

So you do have a dog in this fight, so to speak.

What's tough about this is he already knows this relationship is harmful.

So it's not like you need to get him there.

Consciously, he's there, but something is keeping him stuck.

He must feel that he's getting more out of participating in this cycle than he would in leaving.

Or more out of avoiding the decision to end the cycle.

Yeah, that's a really good possibility.

This might be more about his fear of standing up to her, standing up for himself, than it is about his desire to stay in the relationship.

I wouldn't be surprised if both are true.

You were married to him.

Did you see this quality in any way when you were together?

I'm curious.

Anyway, it's also possible that he doesn't experience this chaos in the same way that you do or understand the effect he's having on other people, including you and your son.

I think we all kind of know people like this.

Maybe they go through something that from the outside, you're looking at it and you're going like, oh my God, this is insane.

How are you not melting down?

And they're like, oh, it's a little stressful, but you know, whatever.

Yeah.

Is her husband a little disconnected from his emotions?

Does he have a high tolerance for other people's crazy?

Maybe.

Is it hard for him to understand people's intentions or fully empathize with other people?

Because all of those things would make it harder for him to see how dire the situation is.

And if so, then that's a hard thing to overcome because you can't make someone see their life the way you see it, the way they probably should see it.

I'm sure our friend here is right.

The facts seem to speak for themselves.

This relationship is our favorite word, objectively bananas.

But if he doesn't feel that, how is she supposed to bridge that gap?

I think it starts by slowing down and really helping him take stock of what he is going through right now, how he feels about this woman and what's drawing him back to this relationship again and again.

And also, I would say, how he's feeling about himself and his life in general, apart from her, because I think that's probably also playing a role.

We don't know for sure, but I would not be surprised if a lot of their conversations go like this.

Dude, Denise is insane.

You are at her beck and call.

You keep driving down there.

You say you're going to break up and then you don't.

This is toxic.

She's abusing you.

You need to get out.

And he's like, I know, I know.

I got to do it.

I'm going to do it this time.

He doesn't.

So obviously that doesn't work.

Telling him what to do, even if he intellectually agrees with you, doesn't work.

My sense is that he needs somebody to help him get in touch with the deeper stuff stuff that's making it impossible for him to end the cycle.

And that means turning off the part of your brain that wants to just tell him what to do, which can be really hard when you're invested in a particular outcome.

That is hard.

She's going to have to work extra hard to empathize with him instead of slapping him upside the head and telling him he's being a chump, which is what my instinct is here, which actually makes me wonder if he might need to hear this from somebody who's more removed from the situation.

So his brain can't go, yeah, but she's only telling me to break up with her because she's my ex and she doesn't like her or whatever.

Whereas somebody with more distance or somebody without the same history with him, they might hear this and go, wait, she constantly belittles you?

She accuses you of ruining her kids' lives?

But then she has you drive down two hours to babysit these same kids.

She keeps breaking up and getting back together with you.

Dude, this is insane.

You need to get out.

What the hell?

And then he might go, oh, okay.

Well, if they see it that way, maybe I should see it that way.

I hear that, but who is that person?

Like, why would he be opening up to them about all of this?

I mean, it sounds like we are that person.

Okay?

That's true.

Except he's not writing in.

Right.

And our friend here can't just wait around for somebody with more influence to save him.

I mean, this is like what a therapist would tell you if you went to a therapist and you're like, all this stuff is happening.

They might be like, I have a solution that you're not going to like.

Another option is a kind of intervention.

You could try to get a group of friends and family together who are all concerned about this and make it a group conversation that he has to confront.

I like that.

I think it'll be a lot harder to ignore eight of his friends and family telling him that he's blowing it.

What's frustrating about all of this is this guy has a few big things he needs to work on, right?

One is obviously ending this relationship.

Another is understanding why he got into it and why it's so hard to leave.

Another is staying away from people like this in the future.

And then another, maybe the most important one, is getting in touch with his confidence, his sense of self, his dignity, and learning to stand up for himself when he has to.

And how does a group intervention telling him to break up with her help him build that?

Yeah, exactly.

Is her priority to just achieve the result as soon as possible or is her priority to allow him to go through a process that will hopefully allow him to build these muscles for himself but that might also require more pain and chaos in the meantime the problem is i'm not sure he can build those muscles as long as he's wrapped up in this relationship it's kind of like an addiction right you can tell an addict hey if you want to kick the drugs you got to talk about your trauma you have to face your life you have to repair your relationships but as long as they're smoking meth or whatever it is they're not going to be able to really do that they have to detox detox.

They have to stop using in order to be clear-headed enough to even begin doing this work.

And the same thing here, I think.

This woman is the drug, right?

Our friend here might have to be a little heavy-handed and push him to finally break up with her so that he can get to a place where he can figure out why he ended up there in the first place.

Man, it's a catch-22, isn't it?

It's like, which one comes first?

You're making a good point.

I also know that she's trying that and it's not working because he's not getting beneath the surface of this relationship.

But to your point, yeah, maybe she does need to be more prescriptive with him, yank him out of the relationship, whatever that means, and then they can really get into it.

But I guess what I'm getting at is, even if he manages to finally end this relationship, which would be great, if he doesn't work through this stuff, then he's still going to be vulnerable to other people like this in the future.

And he's still going to have these qualities and these patterns that have done a number on their family unit.

So yes, in a way, this woman is the problem, but in a way, she's just one aspect of the real problem.

And I just really want him to work on that.

Of course, we all want him to work on that, Gabe.

We're all on Team Our Friend here.

But on a practical level, step one is literally stop playing babysitter to the woman accusing you of ruining her kids' lives and then reeling you back in and making you say I'm sorry right before her annual trip to Cabo or spring break or whatever.

Yeah, fair.

And it would be nice to save on the gas money.

Yeah, too.

I would imagine.

Maybe if you show him what he'll save in fuel costs, that'll decide it for him.

There you go.

Show him the dollars and cents of it all.

Maybe he'll realize he needs to leave.

She has one other big card to play here, I think, which is their son.

And I'm actually really frustrated about this because it's one thing to subject yourself to a bunch of insanity, but to subject your child to it when you know this relationship is getting in the way of your time with them, when they're obviously seeing this play out, that's just bad parenting.

It's irresponsible.

So it might be time to say, look, if you can't say goodbye to Denise yet, that's up to you.

I can't force you to protect yourself.

But our son is also paying the price for all this instability.

He's watching his dad stay in a toxic relationship, and I'm going to give it to you straight.

He's starting to doubt that you are a good role model.

And I need you to know that this is having a major impact on him.

I can tell you, man, as a dad, if someone said that to me, if they were like, hey, Jaden thinks less of you and is getting hurt because you're doing XYZ thing, that just cuts right to the bone.

There's no way a decent father could ignore something like that.

That might be the lever you're looking for.

I'm really sorry your ex is caught up in this cycle.

I hope some combination of these things works and he finally wakes up.

And if he doesn't, then you might have to consider some other moves, including protecting your son from all of this as best you can, which might be tough, and inviting him to open up to you about what dad's relationship is bringing up for him.

Sometimes that's all we can do.

But yeah, Denise has got to go.

And I don't mean Dacabo.

I mean for good.

And dad needs to go to therapy.

The end.

Good luck.

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All right.

What's next?

Dear Jordan and Gabe, two good friends of mine worked for me for 20 years in my home improvement business.

Last year, they purchased the business from me and we're still good friends.

I continue to come in for a few hours on Mondays to help them out and maintain the friendships.

That's awesome.

Again, I feel like this is a pretty rare situation.

It's so cool that you guys get along so well.

You're still involved.

I love that.

Our listeners are so evolved.

This clearly reflects well on us.

Gabe, how do I turn this into a compliment about myself, Gabriel?

I think you just did it.

Perfectly.

It was nice.

Well played.

So he goes on, they decided later that year to change their business banking from Wells Fargo to Bank of America.

Soon after, they had fraud on the new account.

The first two frauds were people cashing checks that looked like theirs, but weren't.

The bank reimbursed them for the fraudulent checks, and they opened a new checking account at Bank of America.

Then an unauthorized ACH debit was made from their account for $30,000.

Their office manager was on vacation and the missing money wasn't noticed until a week later.

We believe the ACH debit was a scammer who tricked the bank representative or the B of A system,

but we're just guessing as the bank hasn't provided details.

The fraud has nothing to do with any action from the business.

No phone calls, no texts, no emails were made to allow this transaction and none were made to the owners to validate it.

The owners notified B of A as soon as they saw the fraud.

The bank said that they would get back to them within 60 days.

But two months later, they were denied reimbursement because they didn't report the stolen funds within 24 hours of them going missing.

Ridiculous.

Which apparently is the policy for business bank accounts.

Whereas for regular bank accounts, you have 60 days.

That's infuriating.

This means that if a bank is a victim of a fraud on a client's account, unrelated to any action of the account holders, if the account holders are not checking their account more frequently than every 24 hours, even on weekends and holidays, their money is at risk because the bank does not need to reimburse or assume any responsibility.

This is totally insane.

Pay that man his money.

Wow, two weeks in a row.

New favorite sound by John Malkovich doing a terrible Russian accent.

It's just so hilarious to me.

It's so stupid.

I would just call B of A and just play that clip on repeat until they give in.

I'm sure that'll work.

Sounds effective.

I think if most business owners knew about this, they wouldn't keep any extra money stored in a business bank account other than what's needed for day-to-day operations.

And I think they would look for a bank that would be least likely to use this rule to get out of errors they made.

My owners have worked up the chain of command at the bank and continue to be denied, with the only excuse being that the fraud was not reported within 24 hours.

They've also filed a police report and filed a report with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

Do you have any further advice for my friends and new owners?

What banks are the most ethical, or at least not as likely to use this 24-hour rule, to let themselves off the hook?

Signed, nickel and dimed, because we didn't catch this crime in time.

This is so frustrating.

I'm very sorry this happened to you guys.

Having 30 grand stolen from you after you were already the victim of check fraud and your bank throws up their hands like, sorry, it's not our problem.

You should have noticed this within one day.

That really hurts.

And it frankly, it makes my blood boil because I know how banks like to dodge responsibility.

And clearly, this is their fault, right?

Someone tricked someone at the bank to allow this.

That is 100% their fault.

We did a little homework on this.

And yeah, it looks like consumer bank accounts, they're protected under something called Regulation E of the Electronic Fund Transfer Act, basically a protection from the government because otherwise they wouldn't protect you at all.

Anyway, this means that if somebody hacks your account or steals money, the bank is generally on the hook for the fraudulent charges.

Although even consumers have to follow certain rules, including how soon they report the fraud, it sounds like they have up to 60 days.

But business accounts, they are not fully covered by Regulation E.

They're governed by the Uniform Commercial Code.

We call it the UCC back in law school, no big deal, which is a model law that's been adopted by all 50 states in some form or another.

And that code has much more limited protections shout out to my og law professor jj white who basically crafted the ucc or at least big parts of it and was that's awesome yeah he was actually pretty amazing at not making it sound like the most soulless boring thing on god's green earth because since he did so much with it he would get up there and he's moving around and yelling about it and you'd go wow there's people that are actually this passionate about stuff like the uniform commercial code like bless them right otherwise it wouldn't get done but wow so businesses have to rely on other things to be protected, contract terms with their bank, fraud detection services, which are unique to each bank.

Sometimes they're optional.

Sometimes they cost extra, which is such BS, if you ask me, but whatever.

Honestly, I'd never heard of this either.

I'm glad you wrote in because this is a good PSA for me and everyone listening right now.

First of all, take your money out of Bank of America, those bastards.

And by the way, if you'll indulge me for a second, I know this is kind of dry.

But while I was brushing up on this, I was like, why the hell aren't businesses protected as well as consumers?

What is is the rationale?

That seems unfair.

And the answer is that the EFTA was passed in 1978 to protect individual consumers using electronic banking, which is brand new at the time.

So the idea was average people are really bad at spotting fraud.

They're going to be real bad at spotting electronic banking fraud because it's like the future.

So they don't know how to navigate digital banking.

We need to make sure people aren't going to get wiped out by scammers.

Whereas under U.S.

law, businesses, even though now we have all these mom and pops, businesses are thought to be better equipped.

They have more resources.

They understand contracts.

They understand risk.

They have insurance.

They can implement internal controls with their accounting department.

They're more likely to have in-house compliance and legal advisors.

Of course, none of this is true with small businesses, but whatever, they don't care.

Also, the law assumes that businesses are capable of negotiating custom terms with banks, LOL.

And they can request special features like fraud filters, transaction approval hierarchies, stuff like that, which is absurd.

Imagine walking into Chase and being like, before I do this thing where you fill out a form on your computer, I need all these complex custom terms.

The manager of the bank is going to go, I literally don't even know who you would talk to to get that done.

I fill out these forms.

That's how these big banks work.

It's like McDonald's.

They can customize the burger by taking the pickles off of it.

That's it.

That's all you get.

Look, your story shows that this is clearly not the case for smaller businesses.

We don't have access to any of that stuff.

And of course, that's the majority of business accounts at banks like Bank of America.

So small businesses like ours, they're dangerously exposed and we have no recourse.

So you and your new owners have to do a few things to protect yourselves from now on.

And the easy ones are, one, make damn sure multi-factor authentication is on for your online banking.

If somebody logs on, they need to enter a code sent to them by email or text.

Every bank should offer this by now.

Set up alerts for every outgoing transaction.

Limit employee access to accounts.

Use permission tiers.

That might not be necessary in your company.

If there's a really few employees, you guys are the only ones with access to funds.

It basically should be like the two owners have to approve every transaction.

Is it a pain?

Yes, but they can go through it at the end of the day with the accounting person and done.

Not like some dude in North Carolina randomly sets access to your funds.

Also set up something called positive pay.

That's a tool that helps detect and block unauthorized or altered checks before they are paid.

Set up ACH filters.

There are two filters you should look into.

One is called an ACH debit block.

That blocks all incoming ACH debit requests from hitting your account.

The other is an ACH filter/slash authorization list.

That lets you pre-authorize specific vendors or payees.

And then if anyone else tries to debit you, it's automatically blocked and or flagged.

And virtually every bank offers these features now.

This should be super easy.

In fact, on crypto accounts, I have maximum security set up for all my crypto accounts and anything that's kept online.

And you can't even transfer funds out without waiting X number of days.

And before you do that, it has to be a pre-approved address.

And adding an address requires a separate login from the login to the site.

Once you add that, you can't use it for a few days.

That's what security should be like in a bank, too.

They're just lazy.

And a lot of us don't take advantage of security measures.

I would also encourage your new owners to create a habit of checking all of their online accounts themselves once a day.

Maybe at the end of the day, just see if anything's fishy.

That honestly is a good practice for anybody, business owners or individuals, just to keep an eye on things.

All you got to do is log in and look at recent transactions, the end.

And if your friends want to get even more proactive, they can look into getting insurance.

There is something called commercial crime insurance, which should cover things like employee theft, check forgery, fraudulent wire transfers.

It can cover phishing scams and vendor fraud, but that really depends on the policy details.

There's also something called cyber liability insurance, which covers data breaches and certain forms of cyber fraud.

But honestly, I don't know if you guys need insurance.

If you do everything else, you should be covered.

You guys might also want to consider, please change banks.

Look for one with better protections.

It's no secret that big box banks like bank of america wells fargo they don't give a crap about you or your business at all or any of their customers frankly look at their conduct over the past few years they merely do the absolute bare minimum required by law that is what they're doing here which is apparently

all and leaving you holding the bag but also i don't know if you can find a bank that would have made you whole on 30k in this day and age i used to be a member of first republic they were awesome they were super personalized very secure they're gone now Anyway, do some homework, call around, find out which bank is going to take the best possible care of you guys.

And frankly, if you find one, it's a national chain, let me know which one it is because I'll switch there in a second.

Again, I'm very sorry this happened to you guys.

Losing 30K to scammers and not being protected.

It's a really tough pill to swallow.

But this sounds like an example of how ultimately it is on us to be more proactive and responsible about managing these risks.

Because these big companies, if they aren't compelled by law, they aren't helping.

They don't care.

I hate that you had to pay a steep price for this, but maybe this is what it takes to learn how this stuff works and make sure this never happens again.

And like I said, it is a really good lesson for all of us.

Congrats on selling your business.

I love that you want to empower your new owners.

I love that you guys have such a good relationship.

Good luck and stay safe.

You know who won't take you for a ride and abscond with your money?

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Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Okay, what's next?

Hey, Jordan and Gabe.

I've been with my current boyfriend for 10 years.

We get along great, but lately I feel like things have gotten stale.

He doesn't seem driven to me.

His appearance has gotten messier.

He gives me lazy vibes.

I'm a very driven person, and lately I feel like he's not.

For example, I tell him he needs to network, and he's like, hmm, no, I don't.

The whole networking thing is really bothering me, especially because I'm building a business myself and everything I've gotten is due to networking.

He's very supportive of my business and helping me whenever I need it.

He's a good person.

I just wonder if he would even do things if I stopped bugging him.

Another example, when we first started dating, I told him that not having a degree was a deal-breaker.

He went back to school and worked at the same time.

What if I never pushed him to do that?

Where would he be?

At the same time, I'm still building my life.

I'm nowhere near where I want to be for my age, which definitely affects me.

But worrying about him also doesn't help.

And does he worry about me?

I have no idea.

Another thing, he's not straightforward with me about his finances.

We don't live together yet because we live in one of the most expensive states.

I ask him if he still wants to get married, but we don't seem to be moving in that direction.

Sorry, I'm confused by that.

Wouldn't living in one of the most expensive states make you want to live together more?

Because you save on rent.

I'm not sure what that means.

Maybe they can't afford a bigger place for the two of them.

That's the only thing that makes sense, but I also think that there's probably more to that after 10 years.

Yeah.

They still don't live together, which I guess is possible, but I don't know.

Maybe this is about more than just finances.

So she goes on, also, our parents are complete opposites, which I appreciate at times.

All of this has also made me think about my history.

For example, I've been thinking about this guy I talked to in college who gave me total mixed signals.

Then he started dating some other chick and literally married her right away.

And the other day I was thinking that my boyfriend reminded me of my ex-boyfriend.

He got messy and would become spiteful too.

And our texting habits are the same as well.

Interesting.

This is very hard to deal with.

I feel so shitty for even thinking this way.

But I can't imagine my life without him.

I feel like our relationship is codependent.

Will things change?

Will things move forward?

Or am I just wasting more years here?

Signed, getting tripped up about whether to give up when my dude's slipping up.

Oh boy, lots going on in this letter.

Gabe, have you heard the term hobosexual, by the way?

Have you ever heard of this?

No, what is that?

So I'm not saying this is her guy, but this is a whole thing.

Apparently, it's when guys are like really messy and they're not ambitious.

It's called hobosexual.

It's actually not sexual at all, obviously, but a lot of women are like, my boyfriend or my husband, this, and we've been dating.

And it's always, we've been dating for the amount of time that most people would have been dating, married, and then had children.

So like a decade.

Interesting.

It's always something like that.

And it's just basically a guy who's just going with the flow and like not moving things for coasting.

Yeah.

Interesting.

So there's so much more I'd want to know about you and your relationship before I straight up lydia you and tell you whether to stay together or break up.

But let me start by talking about one of the biggest themes here, which is values.

You and your boyfriend clearly have different values around ambition, career stuff, money.

I suspect also that you guys have different pressure points around these things.

For example, He's not being straightforward with you about his finances.

That might speak to his values around money and communication, but it might also speak to some embarrassment on his part if his financial situation isn't solid.

And I'm going to sense that it's not because when I was dating and I had money finally, I was like, I hope somebody asked me about how much, you know, let me accidentally drop this metal credit card on the floor.

I was like, I need to do this without looking like a complete dick because I was proud of myself.

In fact, I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I'm going to tell you anyway.

I remember when Jen brought me to her parents' house, not maybe the first time, but certainly the first.

several times, her mom, legit with love, by the way, she goes, how much money do you have?

And I was like, in my wallet right now.

And she's like, no, totally.

On like completely, how much money do you have?

Wow.

And I was like,

direct question.

It was.

You got the third degree from John's mom on like the first time you met her?

It wasn't the first time we met.

It was one of the first few times that I'd been to their house.

And she was just like, okay.

She was like, oh, not too bad or something like that, which wasn't great.

I mean, I was like 30.

two years old or something and I had run a business.

So I basically had what was that like?

Were you like weirded out by that?

A little bit, but I had read that Asian parents could be that way, but I never actually experienced it myself.

And then I remember a few years later, literally one or two years later, she asked me again.

And then she goes, oh, so much more than last time.

In other words, she basically remembered or wrote it down.

And so she gave me a break on the first one.

And then she basically pinned that and then was like, let's make sure he has more next time I ask in a year or two.

She's doing her homework.

She was.

And then when I did, she was like, oh, very impressed that you saved that much.

And I remember my dad was always, because I didn't do anything back then, man.

I like never went out to eat, never did anything, never spent money on myself.

Company was paying my rent.

I basically just saved my money.

That was it.

So I'm lucky I did that because, man, can you imagine if I was like, oh, still the same?

She would have been like, loser, right?

Harsh.

That's so funny.

And was Jen like kicking her out of the table or was she like, yeah.

Jen was like, sorry about that.

That's very typical Asian that didn't know it was going to happen, but now you got through it.

But your point is like, you're not cagey about your finances if you're okay.

That's your point.

Yeah.

Thank you for bringing me back because I was like, why the hell am I talking about this super embarrassing thing?

Because you just want to flex, clearly.

No, I just said my mother-in-law has asked me many things.

She also told me I was getting fat.

Okay.

That's also very Asian.

Cuts both ways.

It does cut both ways.

No, that was not a flex.

That was just, if you have Chinese in-laws, you feel me.

And it doesn't matter what color you are.

Dot, dot, dot.

I have a Robin Hood account and I skip her up every morning.

That's right.

So, yes, if your finances are okay and your girlfriend says, hey, maybe we should get a house or an apartment together.

How are your finances?

And you're like, none of your business, bro.

That's not a good sign.

And I just want to be clear.

This is not about having a ton of money or only dating people who have as much money or more money than you or whatever.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

You can be at the beginning of your financial journey, not have much, still be on top of your bills, still be on top of your credit cards, transparent about your situation, all that.

So I'm not trying to dunk on anybody for not having a brokerage account or whatever.

I was there too.

I'm commenting on the values around basic financial hygiene and how you talk about it and being willing to talk about it.

All right.

So, what you need to know is two things.

First, incompatible values around very important things, things that are important to you, that is so hard to overcome.

If somebody doesn't subscribe to the same core principles as you, if they don't care about the same things, that is going to continue to be a source of friction, frustration, disappointment, resentment.

You're obviously quite driven.

You value things like education and ambition and growth.

And your boyfriend, okay, I'm sure it's complicated for him, but he might not, or he values staying comfortable more.

Either way, you guys are mismatched there.

Now, look, your values can change.

His values can change.

So we got to make room for that possibility.

But in my experience, core values and a person's capacity to honor them, it's harder to change, man.

It's not impossible.

It's just rare.

And when it happens, it's usually because the person has gone through something profound and and the change comes from them, not from the outside.

Which brings me to the second thing that you really need to accept, which you're already discovering, which is you can't make your boyfriend do anything that he doesn't really want to do.

You kind of did that with making him get his degree.

It sounds like he actually did that really well, which is awesome.

Congrats.

But it sounds like he was motivated more kind of by the fear of losing you than by a genuine desire to succeed and improve himself.

That sort of internal drive, man.

Look, fear of losing something can be useful fuel, but as you can see, it's not sustainable.

It's not permanent.

Now, I have to acknowledge that my values are playing a role here too.

I also value ambition and achievement and relationship building.

I'm more identified with you here, but that's not why I'm saying this.

I'm saying this because if those things are important to you, this is going to be an issue forever, no matter what.

So your options here are change your values, which I don't think you want to do.

And I honestly don't think you should do that.

You can change his values, already talked about that, or you can compromise on your values.

Take certain values less seriously or don't expect them of your partner, which to be fair, some people do that and they do it successfully, or they just make peace with the fact that they can't get everything from one person.

They choose to prioritize other qualities, whether that's kindness or support or whatever it is.

So that's something to think about.

The other thing you need to confront is it's been 10 years.

There are multiple challenges here.

You're suddenly facing all these really pressing questions about each other, about yourself, about the future, and you might compromise your values and then you might be dissatisfied with that later.

And I think when these things pile up in a way that creates a crisis, it's usually a sign something's not right.

Gabe, this is another one of me putting my values on someone else here, but why are you dating for 10 years?

That's a really long time.

If getting married is what she wants and if progressing in the relationship is the priority, if they're happy with where they are, I don't see that as an issue.

Yes.

My family is famous for they'll date for like 10 years or 20 years and they basically just never get married.

Or they get married and then they have a kid right away, but they've been dating for literally 20 years because it's like, ah, why get married if you're not going to have a kid right away, blah, blah, blah.

So I get it.

People do that.

But this almost sounds like she's trying to get things going and he's just kind of like, huh, whatever, bro.

That's the vibe I'm getting from this whole thing.

Now, I'm not saying you definitely need to break up or whatever, but it sounds to me like you guys aren't communicating as well as you could about certain important things.

Maybe these things are even being avoided a little bit because, you know, it's going to cause conflict.

There are just a few gaps here that need to be bridged.

For example, you said you don't know if he worries about you as much as you worry about him.

I thought that was a really interesting thing to share.

Because look, there might be more to worry about with him than with you.

I'm guessing he looks at you and goes, man, she's killing it.

She's good.

But the fact that you feel like he might not spend as much time thinking about you, that is meaningful, very meaningful.

But I also think this is another consequence of that value mismatch.

When one person's values enable them to take good care of themselves, it can make you worry about how the other person is taking care of themselves.

And it can also let them off the hook for worrying about you.

Cause look, you're self-motivated, you're self-sufficient, you're thriving, or at least on your way.

Yeah, that's a good point.

I guess I also wonder what it means to worry.

She didn't say, does he think about me as much?

Does he wonder what my path is going to be like?

She said, does he worry about me as much?

I'm not sure what to make of that, but I do get the sense that she feels lonely.

and misunderstood.

And that's a tough feeling in a relationship.

That's exactly it.

It's not just that she worries about him more than he might worry about her.

It's that she cares enough about these things to worry at all.

And it seems like maybe he doesn't.

And that makes her feel like they're just on two different planets.

Or he doesn't know how to worry about her in the way that she wants to be worried about.

But all of these are important feelings to pay attention to.

The other thing we have to talk about, of course, is the other guys she's dated.

Yeah, so much going on there.

Pattern, anyone?

So very few details, kind of a sketch of her history, but somehow just enough.

It was like a Monet of her past relationships.

It's like that video take on me where it's just the little pencil drawings, but when you flip them fast, it's an animation.

Exactly.

Now we understand.

So her ex, very similar to her current guy.

Messy and apparently spiteful sometimes.

Crucial data, yes.

I think it's safe to say that there is some template at play here and a certain kind of partner she seems to be drawn to.

She's the driven, conscientious.

interested on top of it one and the partner is what a little lost a little chaotic maybe a little stuck looking to her to tell them what to do where to go yeah why that is i'm not quite sure that's for her to figure out there might be something gratifying about trying to galvanize a partner into taking action it might be familiar safe to be the more together one

yeah i'm trying to be kind here maybe these guys offer her other qualities like their kindness or something else she didn't mention that distract or outweigh these frustrations it's hard to know for sure i i'm secretly and silently very judgy of this particular thing i can see that You're very passionate about this story.

Yeah.

There's a lot to get worked up about, but I guess I share your concern, especially around this whole spiteful thing.

Yeah, that's the strong word.

I don't know if these guys are spiteful because they're angry or bitter or just a little mean or something.

If so, that's obviously a crucial quality to keep an eye on.

But there is another possibility, which is that...

This template we're talking about, where she seems to choose messy partners she needs to motivate and fix, basically, that might make these guys act a certain way sometimes they might lash out it might make them act in a spiteful way whether that's making a hurtful comment or finding small ways to retaliate or holding a grudge against her whatever that looks like in other words these guys might just be spiteful people but falling into this dynamic with her especially as men might also bring up certain feelings for them namely anger and maybe some shame And I do wonder if that sometimes makes them act spitefully.

Interesting.

And I'm going to say this.

I'm not talking about your guy here because I don't have enough details and I only have your side of the story.

There's a lot of women that will pick a messy guy and they're like, oh, he just needs to be mothered and pulled in this right direction.

And that's what you're doing.

You are mothering him, essentially, right?

You're taking care of him.

You're taking care of the bulk of whatever issues.

And you're like, hey, get your degree.

And, oh, hey, I'm going to motivate you by saying that I can't be with somebody who doesn't have a degree.

So he finishes his degree.

So you're like, I'm good for him.

I'm fixing this guy.

And he's like, oh, she's so naggy.

She wants me to be someone I'm not.

But he already knows that he's not really good enough for you.

So he's acting spitefully because you're highlighting that in a way that you think is motivating.

And he sees as you trying to drag him kicking and screaming into being a better person.

But he doesn't want to be that guy.

And I really do think that says more about these guys and their buttons that are getting pushed.

But why do you keep picking guys like this?

Again, I'm not necessarily talking about your guy here, but so many women who have their ish together, they date these kind of like fixer-uppers.

That's the kindest way I'm planning on putting it.

And then they're surprised when Mr.

Fixer-upper turns out to be kind of a loser after a while.

And I feel the need to say once again, I'm not talking about this particular letter, but this happens a lot.

She's obviously curious about how this relationship echoes her past.

So I think that's terrific.

And I guess we're just inviting her to take a deeper look at what happens between her and her partners, not just what her partners are like in general, because that's not the full story.

Totally.

The other guy she mentioned, though, the one who gave her mixed signals and then started dating another woman who he married right away.

I'm not sure what to make about that one.

The only common thread I can see is that she seems to be getting push-pull signals from dudes and that bothers her.

I don't know.

It is a bit of a curious connection to make.

I wonder if what she's saying is, I just don't know where I stand with guys a lot of the time.

Like, do they want to date me?

Do they not want to date me?

Do they worry about me as much as I worry about them?

Are we on the same page or are we on separate tracks?

But this is another hard one to diagnose.

But if that's the connection, then there's more for her to know about the men she's attracted to, how she relates to them, because again, there are gaps here.

She might have also brought it up because she seems to want to get married and you don't seem to be moving in that direction.

So she's thinking about this other guy who married this girl really quickly.

And maybe she's just going like, why did that happen?

Why is it so hard for me?

But if that's why she brought it up, I don't know.

That seems like a very tenuous connection.

I get it.

You're wondering who your husband's going to be, but the progress you're looking for is so much closer to home.

It's here and now inside of you and with this guy, right?

But I also know that big crises in relationships can bring up a lot.

They can make you think about the past.

I get it.

I just feel the need to acknowledge one other, actually two other possibilities here, just to be totally fair, which is, number one, her boyfriend might be a little depressed.

Yeah, that's why I'm not trying to be king a-hole about this whole thing.

I'm glad you brought it up.

That occurred to me while you were reading the letter that he might just be like down and demotivated for other reasons.

It was the part where she said that his appearance has gotten messier lately.

That's very classic, obvious.

That's the hobo sexual.

Well, you're calling it hobosexual, but he might just be like very depressed.

He's giving her lazy vibes.

Yeah.

But he might actually be going through something really difficult and he can't locate his ambition or his zest for life at the moment.

Also, to be fair, clearly there's a history of him not being the most ambitious.

This is not entirely new.

I don't know if we can chalk this all up to a mood thing, but it does sound like he's struggling more recently.

And I do have compassion for that.

And it does make me wonder if he might be going through some stuff, which can be really debilitating.

And if so, then he he does deserve a little more patience and a little more compassion as he works through that.

The second possibility I want to acknowledge is something that came up a few weeks ago.

Jordan, do you remember when you took the letter from the woman who was dating the guy who wouldn't brush his teeth?

Yes.

Yeah.

And there were other issues there, but she also felt like she had to mother him.

She had to like encourage him to do basic things and to get his life going and all of this.

And several people wrote in and said, hey, just so you know, that can be the symptom of ADHD.

Yeah, I saw that.

I thought that was interesting.

It never would have occurred to me, actually.

Now, look, I don't know if I'm at the point where I can like say it's fine that you don't brush your teeth because you have ADHD.

I don't know.

I'm not sure if that lets you off the hook for basic hygiene, but apparently it can be really difficult to do basic tasks, to stay on top of things, to follow through, to stick with multiple steps in a process or whatever.

We're not hearing a ton of textbook ADD symptoms in this letter, so I'm really...

just wildly speculating, but I'm just trying to cover all of our bases.

I guess the larger thing is, can we we be curious about what this guy is going through?

There might be a couple narratives here.

One is just that he doesn't share her values and he's not as ambitious as she is.

And that's the end of the story.

But there might be other narratives there too, right?

It would be helpful if she could appreciate everything he's going through if she's going to try to help him before she decides whether to leave.

Exactly.

It's a fair point.

I also wonder if he's been depressed this whole time.

It's just gotten worse lately.

But ultimately, if that's going to get better, that's something he's going to have to take on himself.

She can't cure his depression for him.

So I hope that gives you a few new angles here.

This whole situation is a little messy, kind of like your choice of men.

I kid.

I know this is painful stuff.

I'm sorry.

But listen, the best thing you can do right now is to really listen to your feelings, honor your values, talk to your boyfriend about why you're struggling, where he is, what he wants, keep taking all these data seriously.

My sense is that this relationship probably isn't working in some fundamental ways.

And I think you've been together long enough to come to a reasonable conclusion about whether you guys can work on it, whether you guys are able to change.

I also don't know if either of you should change.

That's up to you.

But this might just mean you are not the people for each other.

And that's really painful, sunk cost fallacy, 10 years in, all that stuff.

But that's okay too.

You have to be clear and courageous while you also look at the pieces of this that are yours.

Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best.

Man, I hope these two figure it out.

I know I'm hard on these guys, and some of it is just that I can't relate to being like constantly demotivated and not doing anything or blah, blah, blah.

But look, it always takes two to tango, right?

She's putting up with it.

Maybe she's dragging him in a way that he doesn't want to or need to go.

But man, it's really hard not to be like, you've been dating for 10 years.

Somebody's got to shit or get off the pot, one or both of you.

And maybe you should just move on.

Why are you trying to change people?

You don't have kids.

You don't own a house.

Just move on to somebody who has better matching values.

Yeah.

And I appreciate that you're willing to be that guy for her because it might be what she needs to hear.

But I think what this really comes down to is, how is he dealing with all of this?

How is he relating to her?

If he's like, I'm stuck, I'm demotivated.

demotivated, I'm depressed, I don't want to be this way.

I need help.

Can we talk about it?

Can you help me?

I'm going to do the work, but I just, I can't be alone in this.

That's a very different way to deal with your challenges than to just be sitting around waiting for someone to tell you what to do and then leaving you to wonder if the relationship works.

Exactly.

All right.

Now, time for the recommendation of the week.

I am addicted to Litfella.

My recommendation of the week is another killer documentary.

It's called American Hollow.

It's one of my favorites.

So this documentary is, I don't know, definitely top five most bizarre things I've ever seen in my life, but incredible.

It was directed by Rory Kennedy in 1999.

And basically, if I remember the story correctly, she was down in Kentucky doing another documentary and they got lost in one of those hollows.

You know what a hollow is?

No.

Jordan?

A hollow is like those little valleys in Appalachia where you kind of like curve through the mountains.

Okay.

And there are these little tiny, like sometimes they're not even towns.

They're just random dispersed houses that are down in the valleys.

They call them haulers and she got lost and there was a woman on the side of the road who helped her find her way or something and she starts talking to this woman she's like who are you do you live around here and she's like yeah i just live around the corner there and

67 of my nearest relatives we all live within walking distance of one another

and rory kennedy started talking to her and i think might have followed her back to her house or something and she just stumbled across like one of these old school self-described true hillbillies.

And she ended up spending a year, she embedded with her team for a year in their houses in this little community, this pivotal and incredible year in this family's life.

And she shot this documentary.

It is amazing.

It's a time capsule of a place and time that is just riveting.

So if you like weird documentaries, if you like crazy characters and strange worlds, you're going to love this one.

Just like all of the things I usually recommend, it'll give you the full experience.

You're going to laugh, you're going to cry, you're going to go, holy shit, it's also beautifully shot.

I love the way she captures these moments in this family.

She kind of puts you in the center of the action and just films from this beautiful angle that just makes you feel like you're part of this family.

Literally.

Yeah.

Literally.

That's you're gonna love it.

You know what?

I didn't even plan that.

I just saw it out of the corner of my eye while you were talking.

I was like, oh yeah.

Banjo soundbite.

That is for a second.

I thought you were playing the beginning of it or something.

That music is exactly right.

It's funny because music figures into this story a lot.

So many people in Appalachia are incredible musicians.

Everybody knows how to play the fiddle, the guitar.

They're just like all born musicians.

They're amazing.

But watch this documentary.

Let me know what you think and hit me up on Instagram and tell me.

I watch it every few years and every time I see something new in it, we're going to link to it in the show notes.

Cool.

I'm just not going to be mean at all about that.

In case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes.

If there's an episode you like or an episode you really didn't like or you want to share additional thoughts or learn more from other people in the show, fam, come check it out.

There's a lot of cool conversations happening over there.

You can find it all in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

Okay, next up.

Hey, guys, I'm a 51-year-old man, a special education teacher with almost 20 years of experience, and I love the richness that traveling brings to my life.

My adventures range from going to a rodeo for the first time to living overseas during my Peace Corps experience in Morocco.

New experiences, people, and places anywhere are exciting and rewarding to me.

I feel you, my dear.

Gabe secretly rode into the show as a 51-year-old special ed teacher so he could defend his life choices.

How could you tell?

Was it the rodeo?

Everyone knows Gabe loves a good rodeo.

Famously, a huge livestock guy.

Yeah, definitely matches my wardrobe and all my life choices up till now.

Yeah.

You're just hanging out at the rodeo in your vermilion blouse.

Yeah.

What an image.

And my Panama hut.

So he goes on.

I've been divorced for almost 11 years and have two kids.

My 19-year-old daughter is at college on a full ride with athletic and academic scholarships, and my 16-year-old son is a junior in high school and on a similar track with his love of soccer.

I couldn't ask for a better daughter and son.

I've also been sober for 11 years through a 12-step program.

You would not be surprised to learn that there have been some difficult times in my life.

Along with my drinking addiction, I have a suicide attempt and have battled serious manic depressive bouts.

Back Back when I was struggling, a close friend told me that it would be better to be a good father far away than a bad father close by my kids.

So I returned home to Michigan.

While there, I had open heart surgery and a stroke from an infection that almost killed me.

During my time in the intensive care unit, I told myself that major changes needed to happen in my life.

So I moved back to central New York to be closer to my children.

I got serious and started a long road back.

I developed discipline and grit in my life.

The physical rehab was the easiest part.

I ran in college and years later completed the New York City Marathon.

I drew on those experiences to get to a place physically that my doctors are impressed with.

But my mental health was more of a challenge.

The chaos that I created with my drinking and reckless lifestyle destroyed important relationships.

But my mental health was more of a challenge.

The chaos that I created with my drinking and reckless lifestyle destroyed important relationships.

I was isolated from my family, friends, and children.

I said many times that I was sorry, that I would never do that again.

I lied.

I cheated.

My word meant nothing.

The only way that I was able to fix things was through what calls living amends.

Since my word meant nothing, I could only do the right thing at the right time to the best of my ability.

I had to take responsibility for my actions and own them, no excuses.

Over time, people noticed the better choices I was making.

For example, I decided to never tell my children that I would do something or be somewhere and not follow through on it.

I can proudly say that I fulfilled that promise to the best of my ability.

Over years of consistent work, this has brought almost all of the important people back into my life.

And through therapy, consistent hard work, and medical professionals, I have a life that I never imagined I would experience.

That is remarkable, man.

Well done.

It sounds like you had a lot to repair and you repaired it.

Talk about taking accountability and following through.

I got to say, it's extraordinary.

You just don't hear that much this day in age, right?

Like I took accountability for my crap and then fixed my life.

Awesome.

It's really interesting, Jordan.

We talk a lot on Feedback Friday about how to frame things and what to say, how to make your words count.

And obviously words do matter.

They're important.

But he's right.

Words only go so far.

What really matters is what you do because yeah, anyone can say anything.

Even if they mean well, even if they believe they mean what they say, if you don't actually behave in a way that reflects what you say.

Yeah, they're just words.

So I love this living amen's concept.

Very powerful.

Very, I can see why it's become part of the AA curriculum.

When you have a lot to repair, a lot to prove to people, at the end of the day, it's, did you actually show up to my graduation?

Did you attend your meetings?

Did you pay me back for the money you borrowed?

Did you help me rebuild the garage door you crashed your car into?

Whatever it is.

Anyone could say, oh, I'm sorry.

But showing up and fixing the door, that's the part that actually counts.

And this is a great reminder of what really heals these wounds.

It's inspiring.

I now find myself wanting to live overseas again.

I've researched how to both teach and live overseas and I'm ready to do this soon.

But my son is graduating next year and will be off to college and that's brought up a lot of feelings for me.

I have a special relationship with him.

He's helped me more than I've helped him.

My daughter and I are actually part of each other's life and have a growing relationship that is heading more and more in the right direction.

My kids know that I want to live overseas.

But if I move away, how will they process that?

Will they think I'm leaving them again?

If I stay, will they feel like I'm intruding in their lives?

Will they think I'm expecting something more from them?

Can I still be an important part of their lives if I move away?

Or do I feel guilty about leaving them earlier?

And is that clouding my perspective?

Sign, trying to embark without tearing my family apart.

Wow, okay.

Well, look, good questions.

First of all, just have to acknowledge you have been on a journey, my friend.

This is quite a story.

I don't want to belabor the point, but man, you've been through a lot to battle addiction and suicidality and a mood disorder to end up in the ICU with all these health problems and almost die, which is one of the most dramatic rock bottom moments you could ask for.

And then you turn your life around in this incredible way.

You're running freaking marathons, repairing your relationships with your kids, writing all these wrongs.

It's not easy to do.

Like I said, it's inspiring.

You should be very proud of yourself.

So it's a tough predicament.

Look, this is not as serious as a lot of the other stuff I feel like we take on the show.

So I'm glad we can answer something where the stakes are a little bit like less insane.

But do you honor the voice telling you to live your dream of traveling?

Or do you stay here where you are and remain a steady presence for your children?

That's a tough one.

That's a tough one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But you're asking all the right questions.

I guess my first thought is your children are old enough now.

Your relationship with them sounds solid enough now that I would talk to them openly about all this.

Instead of wondering privately, you know, oh, how will they process this?

What will their experience be like?

Is this going to be an abandonment for them?

We'll staying make it feel like I'm intruding in their lives?

They're not six.

They're old enough now.

Why not sit down with them and make it a conversation?

I'm sure they would really appreciate that.

You could literally say, guys, I hope you know how much I love you.

I hope you can see how much getting another chance with you means to me.

As I also have this dream of traveling, and I think now it might be my moment or soon.

But I'm torn between staying here, staying close to you, going off and having a really meaningful experience for me.

I'm going around in circles here asking myself how you guys would feel if I left, whether I need to stay here to really be a part of your lives, whether I can go off and have this experience and still be a good dad, which is my priority.

And I just don't know the answer.

There's also a part of me going, if I stay, are you going to feel like I'm intruding in your lives?

Will you think I'm expecting something more from you guys?

So I thought we could talk about it.

And I want you to be really honest with me.

Being your dad, working on our relationships, that has been everything to me.

And I don't want to do anything to compromise that or disappoint you or take a step backward, but I want to know where you are right now and what you really need from me so I can make a decision that's right for all of us.

Something like that.

That's how I'd frame it.

I like that.

Yeah, they might say, yeah, we need you close by.

What are you talking about?

I don't know how I'd feel if you moved away.

They might also say, dad, we're good.

We're in college now, man.

We're almost in college, whatever.

You can stay close even if you're living somewhere else.

Go have fun.

YOLO.

Thank you for asking.

Or maybe it'll be a mixed bag or it'll be a process for them to arrive at the right decision, right?

Like it might be several conversations where you guys need to talk out your many feelings about all of this before you decide.

Your kids might have some questions for you about why traveling is so important for you.

They might want to explore how they would actually feel if you moved away.

And you might also have some questions, you know, about what they really need from you or.

whether you guys are at a place and an age now where leaving would not be felt as an abandonment, but maybe as a transition that you guys can manage.

They might basically be ready to let you go for a period of time, but they might also have some things that they want to say to you or know about you before they can get on board with it, right?

Like they might need some reassurance, for example, that you're going to keep taking care of yourself while you're abroad and that you're going to come back from this trip and you're still going to be a steady presence in their lives.

What they're going to also ask is, can we come visit you?

They're probably going to be super excited for you.

That's my prediction.

They're going to be super excited for you.

They're going to ask if you're coming back and if they can come visit and you're going to find that you're overthinking this.

That's what I hope for you.

And that's what I predict for you.

I'm actually glad that you touched on that, Gabe, because that was on my mind too.

If he does go, is he going to keep attending the meetings?

Is he going to stay in touch with his sponsor?

Will he keep exercising?

I highly recommend that you do all that, by the way.

It might be important for his kids to know that he has a strong foundation now to make a move like this responsibly, that he's not going to go off the deep end and lose all his progress and potentially break their hearts when he puts himself in a new environment.

Yeah, and that's something to think about.

Maybe even before you talk to your kids, do you have the support?

Do you have the clarity?

Do you have the structure in your life to go on this trip in a responsible way?

And if the answer is kind of, but not totally, then maybe you have some work to do before you really start exploring this with them.

But if the answer is, eh, but not really, then you might have some work to do before you really start exploring this in a real way with your kids.

But if the answer is, yeah, absolutely.

I'm rock solid.

I have my relationships.

I have my rituals.

I have my programs and I'm good to go and I'm not worried and I'm happy to share that, then that would be a great thing to bring into this conversation with your kids because I think they might need to hear hear some of that to feel secure enough to then get excited about your dream.

There is one other thing we got to talk about here, which is the mood component.

You said that you've battled serious manic depressive bouts.

I'm guessing, or I'm hoping at least, that you've addressed that in therapy.

You did mention that with the help of doctors, you've gotten your life together.

So maybe you're on medication now.

One way or another, my hope is that you are on top of this.

Candidly, that is one part of your story that gives me pause, or it's just something that I would really sit with.

Whether this dream of traveling is real and well thought out, or whether there's a little bit of a manic quality to it.

I know that this idea has been brewing for a while.

It's not like you just decided that travel is what you're going to do and it's going to fix everything.

You've been doing this since you were a young man.

So it's not just a whim.

But since we don't know you super well, I just want to flag that so you can check it out.

Make sure that you're feeling clear and stable as you come up with this plan and you're not just like super hyped because you're potentially in a manic phase right now.

Really good call.

And if you're still in therapy, this would obviously be a great thing to talk to your therapist about.

As for the guilt piece, whether your guilt about leaving the first time is informing all this, that's a very meaningful piece of this puzzle.

And that's something you need to work through or just accept as part of the equation.

You might want to bring that into your conversation with your kids.

Hey, there's a big part of me that still feels guilty for leaving you the first time.

It's really hard for me to think about leaving without feeling guilty again.

And then let them tell you whether that guilt is warranted.

But honestly, my hunch is you're going to have to work through that guilt yourself because your kids didn't create it.

But here's an idea.

Instead of only thinking of it as a reminder of what you did or you didn't do, maybe you can think of it as a reminder of what's important to you, what you really owe your children in the future.

That doesn't mean you can't go abroad, but it might help inform you how to stay close to them if you do.

We can't tell you for sure whether this is definitely the right move or whether now is the right moment.

What's going to determine that is the way you're taking care of yourself, the quality and stage of your relationship with your kids, what they need and expect from you right now, and the process you're in with them and with everyone else in your life to make this dream of travel understandable and responsible and respectful.

I do think that it could be amazing.

It could be very doable.

And it could even be a part of your recovery and your growth.

And I do think that your kids going off to college, building their own lives frees you up to some degree and changes the requirements of your relationship.

And by the way, that might mean waiting till your son goes off to college if he goes off somewhere.

Because even though he's older, he's like 17, there's something about finishing high school that kind of ends a chapter And it might be worth sticking around while he's still in school.

Again, something for you guys to talk about.

I didn't even go to my high school graduation.

So I would have been bummed if somebody like stayed two months not doing something so they could go to this thing.

And I was like, whatever.

I didn't even show up.

I just didn't care.

But your son might be like, are you kidding me?

This is the biggest night of my life.

You're not going to be there.

That's worth staying around for.

But talk to him.

Listen, if you decide to go, I would come up with a few practices that'll help you stay connected to your kids.

Text them consistently.

Send them photos.

Send them email.

FaceTime with them regularly.

Maybe invite them to come visit you.

That's a great way to create new experiences with them, invite them into this whole adventure.

I really do believe that you can still be an important part of their lives, even if you move away, but you have to be conscientious and put in the effort.

Super cool dream, man.

Just make sure you're doing it thoughtfully and you really can't go wrong.

Good luck and safe travels.

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

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This show is created in association with Podcast One.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sadlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

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