1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld

By the way, this episode, and especially this part right here in the beginning, starts off graphic.

No kids in the car for this one for sure.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. He had done something she told him to never do again.
And he went on a cocaine bender and was gone for like three or four days. She couldn't get a hold of him.
She didn't know where he was at. He finally comes home.
She took a two by four and put it behind his legs and took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum to the board. Picture it.
Picture a board stuck to the back of you hooked to your ball sack. Welcome to the show.
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Today, part two with Scott Payne. We had so much to talk about before.
He's a retired FBI undercover. He's been with biker gangs, helped take down a bunch of these outlaw biker gangs, one percenters.
This week, we're talking about how he, well, kind of accidentally joined the Ku Klux Klan,

white nationalist violence, something called accelerationists, which are guys who just kind of want to see the whole world burn so they can start a white supremacist or white separatist ethnostate in the United States of America. These people are real, folks.
Absolutely nuts. By the way, this episode, and especially this part right here in the beginning, starts off graphic.
No kids in car for this one, for sure. Man, I appreciate you coming back.
Last time we talked to you, we talked about some of the ups and downs of undercover and going into the outlaws biker gang. But the next level up in craziness is some of these, I don't even know if you still call them gangs, are almost like cults with some of the weird stuff that they were doing.
Can you outline some of this? Because I rarely don't know where to begin, but the book has a man having sex with a donkey and the donkey put his fingers off. It's just like, okay, is that where we opened the show? And I think that might be where we opened the show.
It was just, there was a guy banging a donkey. Yeah, I think I said it on the last one.

My faith, it's carried me through a lot of this stuff, if not all of it, you know?

Yeah.

And I forget because I'm in church groups and they're like, man, we're going to get your book.

And as I was reading the audio book, I started just laughing in the studio.

And they're like, what did I go?

Man, I forgot how graphic a lot of this stuff is.

So I need to go back and do a disclaimer.

There's a lot of graphic stuff, but it's true.

Yeah. My church group is going to read this particular page of this book.
You're undercover with some of these gangs, and we'll get into what these are, but no disrespect for people who are upstanding citizens of these particular areas of the country. But this is real, like, can you say redneck country? At the point where somebody's having sex with a donkey at a party, I think we are all on the same page here, right? That's a little- Yeah.
The case was brought to fruition because complaints of public corruption, cops being dirty in this side and the others. We're looking for systemic public corruption, but what ended up happening in this rural area of Tennessee is that we hit it right at the beginning of the opioid epidemic.
The Mecca at that point was in Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida. Back then, I didn't know it.
I was undercover with them. If you don't work it, you don't know it, I guess, unless somebody tells you.
But I remember being with somebody and they're like, man, I'm sick. I can see them sweating.
And I'm like, hey, we pull in and get you like a Theraflu or a Hocococcerin. But no, I'm pillsick, damn it.
And I'm like, what is that? Pillsick. The guy was pillsick

meaning he hadn't had a dose of

Oxycontin in enough time and he was

suffering through withdrawal. Correct.

Withdrawals. And I will tell you,

I have seen withdrawals. I've seen

the hardcore

shake and bake, making your car,

open wounds, lesions, brown

pus, blood. And you're like, dude, that person

has died. It's like full-blown AIDS or something.

It was just withdrawn from meth.

Crappy meth, dirty meth.

And then 30 days later, you see somebody

and I don't know how many years they shaved off their life,

but they look a lot better. They got weight on

them and you're like, damn. But I will tell you

the withdrawals from opioids,

boy,

probably the closest thing to death, obviously.

You want to die. The ones I've seen, you're crapping and peeing to death, obviously.
You want to die.

The ones I've seen, you're crapping and peeing yourself for 12 days.

You can't eat.

Your body's cramping.

You got fevers.

You're screaming bloody murder.

It is bad.

We had four pill mills that we ended up taking down.

Me and my buddy and the task forces did the case.

And our first round of indictments was 102 people on a drug conspiracy in East Tennessee. But I remember testifying before the grand jury and talking about the withdrawals.
Like I just talked with you and a lady raised her hand who was in the jury. And she said, look, I used to work in the NIC unit at University of Tennessee Children's Hospital.
And she said, when those babies are born addicted to that, she's seen the baby. She said, they're not even formed enough to have the muscles in their neck to raise their head, but they're in so much pain from the withdrawals.
The babies are actually raising their heads. And I didn't even know that.
And when she said that, it was like, woof. That's terrible.
So that was the kind of crew we started seeing and we were actually calling down and working with DEA Diversion and DEA as a whole in Florida. At that point in time, we're talking like 2009, you could go to Broward County and you and I could roll in with five other people packed in a car.
We could go into the doctor's office, pay cash for the visit. At one point, they had an MRI machine and a tractor trailer parked behind a strip club.
Why? I guess to kill time, you're in the strip club, but you could go around back and get an MRI because they wanted to try to make their records look legit. But we could go in there, walk in the doctor's office, get our script, walk out, you pay cash for that, and you're still under the same roof.
And there's a pharmacy under the same roof. So you get that prescription filled.
Then we could drive down the road to the next doctor because at that point in time in florida they weren't tracking they weren't tracking opioid sales or doctors we had car loads coming from east tennessee and southeastern kentucky just going there but yeah so we're in the backwoods and we're debriefing the source one day and he's hey man that's old johnny two fingers because we're trying to identify people like who's this guy oh scott that's johnny two fingers you know who johnny two fingers is i'm like no i don't he goes hell everybody knows who johnny two fingers is man i'm like okay who's johnny two fingers and he starts explaining and he i said why do they call him johnny two fingers he goes scott everybody knows i said i don't oh johnny i guess he was horny and he got up behind the donkey one day at the farm or wherever the heck they were at. Out in the backyard.
Who knows? And I guess he's having sex with the donkey, and he's got his hands on the donkey's back hips. As one does, I suppose.
Some sort of a doggy whatever. Yeah, donkey style.
And I guess the donkey didn't like it, and he reared back, huh, and took two of the guy's the guy's fingers off oh my god i remember looking at the guy telling me and i'm like so everybody in town knows that he lost his two fingers having sex with the donkey and he's like yeah and i said and he knows everybody knows that he has sex with a donkey and he lost his two fingers he's like hell yeah and i said and he still lives here

i'm like move yeah make up a story time to go to tampa i'm like wow yeah yeah so that was one of them god there was reports of a dog having sex with a woman yeah at a cocaine and pill party where reportedly some cops were there but that's hard to prove right it's one of those he said she said things unless I'm there and I'm filming it

which I wasn't thankfully

but yeah the German Shepherd's having sex with a female and she starts saying, ow, ow, it hurts. And this is the way it's being described.
This is the way I typed it up. Sure.
Hey, man, it's evidentiary if cops are at a cocaine and pill party. So she starts saying, ow, ow, ow.
The way he's telling the story, it makes it like, okay,

they're going to pull the dog off.

And what they did is they put socks on the front paws of the dog

because what was hurting the girl was the claws going in her back.

Right.

And I'm like, oh, God.

So you didn't stop said bestiality act.

You helped further said act.

And it was like, yeah.

And I'm like, jeez. I'm going to put a stop to this.
Go get some mittens for the dog and continue. I got a six sense of humor.
At least I have to do what I did. I'm like, so note to self, if I see a German shepherd with socks on his front paws, walk backwards.
That's right. Stay away.
Exactly. Man, that is just, how high do you have to be to engage in something like that? There's not enough cocaine in California to make most of us probably want to do that kind of thing.
Day four or five awake on meth, maybe. Yeah.
Day four mark around no sleep and meth and no eating. I've seen people do some pretty crazy stuff.
Jeez. Sexually.
Yeah, insane stuff. And I remember thinking when I was younger and living more in the flesh, as they say, back in the Napster days when you could just go and download anything, I'm like, so this is where they filmed that kind of stuff.
Yeah. I always wondered.
This is where they filmed that kind of stuff. And then as you take your hard drive out and throw it into a river.
Yeah, that's exactly where they filmed that stuff. Jace, we're going to have to mark this as explicit on Apple Podcasts and any platform that doesn't take kindly to all of the things that have happened in the first 10 minutes of the show.
You can just bleep it out. Too good.
It's too good. All right.
So these white supremacist gangs, tell me about these, because when you start infiltrating these groups, they're a whole different animal, right? This isn't like bikers moving guns and meth. They've got a weird and totally different ideology.
Purpose, drive. There's different levels, right? I could sit here and give a whole eight-hour blog on white nationalism, starting from KKK, which is more of a Christian identity, where they take the Christian belief and twist the Bible stories to match their ideology.
And then you get into Christian identity just as

a whole with neo-Nazis. And that would be your Reverend Butler and Red Ray Fair and all that stuff that was going on when they would wear like the blue shirts and the pants and all that stuff, their propaganda flags and monikers.
And then we saw a movement where white supremacists cleaned up so now you've got these clean cut white guys, no tattoos, suit and ties. And they call that kind of like entryism.
They're trying to blend in with general society and get into politics. In their mind, they're thinking if we infiltrate the right, they get further to where it's just for whites, which I still, I don't think there's a lot of afterthought.
I'm pretty sure you and I or anybody with common sense would realize, hey, you only allow whites in this restaurant. I think it would pop out a little bit.
This is like the, I'm not a criminal anymore because I have glasses on now. Okay, pal, we see through the disguise.
You have a tie on, you're still a scumbag. You look a lot like Superman with glasses on.
Right. Yes, exactly.
But they would also infiltrate the left politically and try to bring it down from the inside.

So they believe there's a political solution to save the white race.

The big group that we talk about in the book, or I talk about me as the primary undercover in the FBI, we went in and infiltrated.

Those were groups called accelerations, and they're still out there.

Accelerationism is scary. I know there's a movie, it may already be out.
It's coming out called The Order and it is based on the group called The Order in the 80s. They had that mentality and that ideology, but they weren't calling it accelerationism then.
So an accelerationist, they don't believe that there is a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is either going to collapse on its own or for man-made events, and they want to speed that up.
Hence, acceleration. I see.
So they look at a lot of things like it's almost like militia meets white supremacy. So these guys are training for what they believe is D-Day, which is going to be the start of the race war, which they called the Boogaloo.
At least when I was in it, they called it the Boogaloo. And they look at guerrilla warfare tactics.
Take this power grid down over here, derail a train over here, shoot a leftist journalist over here, poison a water system here, just chaos. So a picture I like to paint is when we were having all the riots all over the country.
And I'm not saying there wasn't a good reason to riot. I'm just saying you had riots all over the country.
You had the defund the police movement. You had towns being set on fire, like infernos, police stations being vandalized or possibly taken over, courth, the same thing.
An acceleration is just sitting up on the hill with their guns, building up their kit, and they're happy. They're like, please keep killing each other, keep shooting each other, keep burning the town down because we're going to come down and clean it up afterwards.
And it always ends with like an ethnostate, any of those ideologies in the white supremacy realm. And by the time I retired in 21, within that previous two-year timeframe, a lot of other sources of information were telling us.
And what we were getting was that two years prior, being an accelerationist was kind of cringe. Adam Woffin was like the first big one.
James Mason, longtime white supremacist, neo-Nazi, wrote the book Siege. And it's basically a bunch of articles.
He idolized Charles Manson, stuff like that. What a good role model if you want to follow somebody.
Stuff like that. And it was kind of like get away from the standing on the corner with picket signs.
That's doing nothing. Sit back, do the guerrilla warfare, hit them here, light hits here, a lot of stuff like that.
So they called that the siege mentality. So it was Atomwaffen and then the base came after that.
The base was more of an umbrella. They call themselves the base.
Isn't Al Qaeda in Arabic, the base? So is that a coincidence? I don't think so. I don't think we ever confirmed it.
I call my buddy, He's still active, but I don't think anybody ever confirmed. But look, you say that your group is called the base.
Al Qaeda in English is the base. Al Qaeda's MO was three to five man sales.
I always try to correct it because I know I got a country accent. C-E-L-L.
Oh, so people don't think you're saying sales? Yeah. So three to five man sales all over the world waiting for that call for D-Day.
That was Al Qaeda's model. That was the basis model.
Three to five man sales all over the world waiting for the call for D-Day. Preparing your kit, preparing for training.
We train each other, a survivalist group waiting for that day to come. And I'm talking about in these groups, you would see young kids don't have a job, don't have a car, but they've got an arsenal.
They're wearing plate carriers, their plate carriers, at least the group I was in, Cry Precision 2.0, that's the same stuff the FBI is wearing. That's expensive stuff.
Yeah. Wow.
And they're saving up money for that. Wow.
Where do they get it? I remember back in the day I had to buy a bulletproof vest for work. I just had Gulls, which is a police catalog, and they had these Safariland vests or whatever, and then they have generic ones, which I got because it was like $100 cheaper.
So are they getting these plates and plate carriers just straight out of these police catalogs? It may not be police. It may be military, U.S.
military one. There's all kinds of things out there to shop for plate carriers and whatnot.
And then you start stocking up on your ammo and your weapons and building your kid out. They call it your battle rattle.
Yeah. But you got your plate carrier, you got all your stuff placed on it.
You've got your belt, you've got your pistol. In the base, the uniform was Flektarn cam because fleck tarn is a pattern of camouflage but it's german so going back to that neo-nazi kind of thing how capable are these guys because whenever i see photos of guys like this the comments are always like oh meal team six is in action or like the here the gravy seals because it's always a guy who looks like he probably wouldn't make it three blocks walking with all the crap he's got velcroed to himself and he's got like velcro extenders to go over his fat belly so the plate carrier fits is that what we're dealing with or are these guys like in good shape training for my experience i've seen both i've seen people come out.
There were people in the base that were very overweight.

You got younger guys, five hour plus rucks, nothing to anybody that's special forces or military for that matter, but yeah, they're training.

And so I get into the group.

You go with the cell that's closest to where you say you live.

So being in Tennessee, there was a North Georgia cell and I went down there and it was a 19

year old kid that led carbine training and it was good. Carbine and tactics.
Wasn't the best. And there's mistakes made.
And of course, we're not going to correct that because we don't want them getting better. But yeah, it was good.
And I'm like, I'm watching and I'm thinking if they did break bad, they could probably get the drop on a lot of people. Yeah, that's quite scary.
I want to back up a little bit. You mentioned that some of the white supremacist gangs have biblical rationalizations for what they're doing.
Can we get a brief overview of that? Because I think it's kind of interesting. Sure.
Christian identity is making a comeback. So the KKK still exists, right? Oh, yeah.
This guy, Daryl Davis, who's been on the show, I don't know if you know him. He's essentially talked a bunch of these guys over years and talks them out of the KKK and he keeps their robes.
Yes. That's the black man, right? Yeah.
Amazing guy. Yeah.
Awesome story. Yeah.
They're still around. They get splintered a lot.
It just seems like there's a lot of infighting. The ones I've seen, but in my experience, the ones that I infiltrated, it was backwoods, lower socioeconomic status.
Surprise, surprise, I guess, right? Yeah. It was very similar to any comedy scene you've seen in a movie that covered the Klu Klux Klan.
I mean, it's amazing to me they still exist. I can only assume it's just a bunch of people whose lives haven't worked out the way they wanted it to.
And they're like, oh, blaming brown people? That's easier than looking at all the mistakes I've made. Where do I sign up for this? That's kind of the impression I get of a lot of these people, especially the interviews with the guys that Daryl's talked to.
They just grew up as ignorant as possible with terrible parents. They're not the cream of the crop.
And they also say things like they're not white supremacists, they're separatists. Do you know what the difference, what does that mean? I'll tell you what they say.
I mean, that's what the way it was explained to me. Now, Scott, we're not supremacists anymore.
We're separatists. Because in other words, supremacist sounds so much worse.
A separatist basically is, we don't care if all the black people are in that field over there. They can have that field, but we want this field for nothing but whites.
That's basically a separatist. And they don't want race mixing at all.
You know, in the way it was described to me, I think, what did John Jack say? Did he say, you don't see a horse effing a cow or something? We don't want to see black and whites. But again, if you really start scratching at the surface and we did a 23andMe of everybody that was in the field I was in, maybe one or two pure white people there.
Even then, what does that mean? Like you're German and Slavic? Okay. The Nazis thought the Slavs were below.
So it's like, where do you draw the imaginary line to put yourself above these people? I found it interesting that a lot of these white supremacist gangs will pimp out white women to non-whites. And it's like, how's that jibe with your whole no race mixing thing? And it's like, well, we need the money.
I was a case agent on this one. I went undercover, but we worked the Aryan nations of Tennessee.
And that was the thing. They call them Aryan angels.
So Christian identity, basically Reverend Butler, Red Ray Fair, and back in the Aryan nation days, they were pushing Christian identity. It may have started before that.
I don't know exactly because I don't have it right in front of me. But the gist of it is this.
They take the story of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve, and then they twist it. There's a dual seed line.
They believe that the biblical story is they're in the Garden of Eden. God says you can have anything you want except any fruit off of that forbidden tree.
The serpent, who is Satan, talks to Eve, gets her on the sly. She takes a bite of the apple.
She gets Adam to take a bite of the apple. And now we're sinners, and it all comes down from there.
They take that, and I'm going to tell you how they twist it, but you got to bear with me. Okay.
Same story, except that the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act with the serpent. Let me guess the serpent's a black dude.
A man of color. Oh God, that's so corny, man.
A man of color who is the seed of Satan himself. It is Satan.
He's a man of color. He has sex with Eve and Eve from that sexual act births Cain.
And that is the mud race they call it the mud race non-white anything not white mud race from there down but adam and eve did procreate abel and that's the pure white race coming down gotcha man this is just like a biblical version of a bunch of really insecure dude's worst fears or whatever. It's so corny and predictable.
Wow. It's crazy.
But I mean, look, they're still out there. And a lot of the MO for recruiting that I've seen, same thing, broken home, somebody that needs to belong and that need to connect.
But from there, you've got Aryan Nation, which was the big one. But in the state state of Tennessee you've got Aryan Nations, not to be confused.
Those are two things. Okay, I didn't know those were two separate things.
Well, but they kind of manned together, at least in my case work, because I ended up interviewing some of the people that created the Aryan Nations in Tennessee, and it was created as a prison gang, but letters started coming from Reverend Butler to the leader of the Aryan Nations, and his street name was Legion. Letters say, cease and desist.
We're already the Aryan Nation. And basically it went back and forth in letters and said, look, we've already lost blood on this name.
We're not changing. And Reverend Butler said, if you're going to keep the name, will you at least listen to Christian identity and let me teach you? And they took that.
So even in jail in Tennessee or any Aryan nation in the prison system, they're going to have their tattoo with the four quadrants. They're going to carry the white rock.
They're going to have their 88 precepts. They're going to have church.
And they mix some biblical in there. Under Reverend Butler, they weren't felons.
So you could have guns and stuff.

And that was a big thing.

We don't want you guys to be part of it because you're felons and you can't have a weapon and all this other stuff. So they're supposed to go by a certain set of bylaws.
I mean, I've got a copy of them. They're out there.
But the thing is, when they were getting out, what we were seeing is they were going right back in the dope gang. And what we uncovered is that a lot of the crystal meth coming from Mexico and the cartel was at least up to here for a good while was coming through a gang called Ghostface Gangsters.
And GFG made not a pact, but basically an agreement with Aryan Nations that Aryan Nations would get all their crystal meth from them. So going back to what you said, they have

Aryan angels. So you can become an Aryan angel and you're now under the Aryan nations.
But as

we put in the book and we were uncovering is they were pimping women out. I'm like, tell me how

you're further in the white race by pimping out your white women. Just going off of the 14 word

slogan that David Lane coined many years ago, that all white supremacists are like 14 words. Secure the white race and the future of our people.
Something along those lines. Here it is from the ADL.
It's a reference to the most popular white supremacist slogan in the world. We must secure the existence of our people and the future for white children.
That's the phrase. And that is essentially yada yada, the whole world is controlled by Jews.
Just in case anybody was confused. Yeah.
Okay. So that's where the 1488 thing comes from, right? The eighth letter of the alphabet is H and that's, so 88 is HH, which is Heil Hitler.
So 1488 is a white supremacist, like code number. I forget the name for it.
Shibboleth. I've got a patch over there somewhere because I got it from whatever.
From some donkey banging party. Yeah.
But more of a goat killing party than a donkey. More of a goat killing party.
Okay. You went to a KKK meeting and I was surprised to learn that they don't burn crosses.
They light crosses. And that's apparently a difference that you need to need to know yeah so i'm out there in the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere in the middle of alabama and i remember asking i'm playing like i don't know everything about this stuff and the role i was in i'm like hey i'm an old biker i've never been to this kind of rally what do you guys do and i remember asking are we gonna burn the Or however I worded it.
And John Jack, who was the clud, which would be their chaplain. Okay, I was going to say clud.
Never heard that word. All right.
If you're in the K, everything phonetically that sounds like K is now a K. Okay, gotcha.
So I'm saying they change it all to Ks. Very clever.
Yeah. With a K.
Clever with a K. Yeah i'm out there and it's somehow the cross burning comes up and he says now scott it's not called a cross burning that'd be sacrilegious it's a cross lighting and i'm like oh okay it signifies the light of jesus christ coming down into the world and driving the darkness out now i didn't ask but i'm pretty sure by darkness he meant non Yeah, I'm pretty sure we could put that one together.
Like, oh, okay, the metaphor is really literal in this particular instance. And in my sick sense of humor, I didn't say it out loud, but as I'm thinking, I'm going, right.
And I'm staring at the cross. I'm like, yeah, because I've met so many white guys named Jesus.
I'm like, this was not a Jew according to them. Yeah.
If you switch over to an acceleration just f your jewish god oh i see interesting it's completely different geez it's a little crazy the kkk stuff it really sounded all so stupid in mickey mouse right it was like nobody say anything and be quiet then 10 minutes later if anybody needs to speak up now and you're like but you told us to be quiet oh yeah forget yeah. Forget about that.
Forget about that. Don't move, but raise your hand

if you just told us not to move

and not to talk. Okay, forget about that.

I know it's funny. I don't

want to make light of it because it is a

terrible thing, the hate.

But yeah, some of it to me was just

comical. I mean, I felt like I was in a scene from

Django Unchained or I felt like I

was at Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?

Or Harold and Kumar escaped Guantanamo Bay for that little snippet they did, or even Bad Boys 2. It would be funny if it weren't sinister domestic terrorism and violent racism, basically.
True. And again, a lot of splintering.
It would be like, all right, so we're the Nashville KKK, and then we all get in a pissing match tonight. And we're like, you know what? We're going to be South Nashville KKK and y'all are going to be North Nashville.
It's just it splits and stuff. I guess the good news is they're so disorganized.
They're not unified at all that it's hard to come up with sort of a big overarching plan for everything because it's a bunch of punks. Yeah, it seems like there's so much splitting and infighting.
They never really pull it together. Plus, it doesn't help when you find out the leader's son married a woman of color or one of the leaders who was one of the loudest anti-gay, anti-black.
I know where this is going. That's the guy that gets caught with a black transvestite.
Sure, of course. You're like, maybe you shouldn't have been talking so bad about it.
I don't know. Yeah, I think that's just one of those every accusation is a confession right they have so much shame around it that they're like ah i can balance this out by being the most anti most racist homophobic whatever and then it all balances out and then if anybody ever catches me with there if there's ever any rumors they'll be like oh that guy no it can't be he's a grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan with a K.
I didn't know that guy was black. I mean, I didn't know it was a guy.

Yeah. And he's black.
Yeah, that wasn't me. That would be

very anti all the things that I clearly believe is per my Facebook profile.

I was undercover. Yeah, I just wanted to see how they operate.

I was infiltrating them. Anything for the cause.
It's crazy stuff.

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All right, back to Scott Payne. In this meeting, though, did you accidentally join the Klan through going through that whole rigmarole? So how I got to that group was I ended up playing music because when I called in, I'm like, hey, I've never been to one of these rallies.
I've been to a lot of biker rallies. I mean, is it like that? You got vendors, music, I don't know, barb, whatever.
they said we got some vendors and he's i ain't gonna lie to you scott because i had a band lined up but the singer got locked up i don't even know what i'm gonna do right now and that's when i said hey did i mention i'm a singer and a musician and he said no and i said well how about i bring my acoustic my pa system whatever let me just come out there i said i'll play a couple of tunes out by the think I suck, no harm, no foul, I'll throw it back in the car and go about my day.

He said, that'd be absolutely great.

So I ended up playing music there.

But you get intelligence from the case team that's been working it.

But I just remember being there.

And again, I'm in a field with 30 plus people and I don't know anybody.

And I know I should be the only undercover there.

No other law enforcement there. And we get to a point to where they're like hey we're holding a naturalization ceremony tonight and john jack's like there's no sweat off my back if you want to go and get naturalized there's a group of people standing around at that point i'm like yeah man cool when everybody kind of walks off i go over to him i go hey what is a naturalization what am i signing up for am i going to end up naked and tarred and feathered? And I don't know what's going on out here.
He said, no, man, he goes, listen, he goes, we have this beautiful ceremony. He said, you ever seen the wizard of Oz? He said, I've seen grown men bigger than you cry at this ceremony.
And once they're naturalized, he said, the beginning of the wizard of Oz, you watch it, it's all in black and white, but once they see the truth, everything's in color. So he's saying once you're naturalized, basically sworn in, it's a naturalization ceremony.
Kind of like somebody coming into the country in the United States and wanting to be naturalized as a citizen. So I say, okay, because had I not gotten naturalized that night, I would have been the only non-member who wasn't being naturalized so it would have been really kind of odd and outcast so i went ahead and went through it and they blindfolded us and they gave some commands in the beginning you're blindfolded put your right hand on the shoulder of the person in front of you you do not break the chain whatever you do we're going to walk you around we're on hills going through woods whatever you do not break the chain that signifies the bond of brotherhood and the white race and anything else you can throw in there to cheer you on.
So now it's getting really dark, blindfolded. And as I put in the book, they're reading from a book.
Some of it sounds biblical and some of it's not. And then the reading wasn't that great.
And then they would miss their spot on the page. Just again, it reminded me of the Django Unchained when the holes are off.
Oh God. And I just remember, don't break the chain, don't break the chain.
And we go through this stuff and they'd like, Hey, if you're a snitch in the group and they fire some shots and all these things, and then it gets down towards the end and I hear, raise your right hand.'m thinking no you said don't break the chain it's a trick i'm like the old simon says i'm like i didn't hear simon say and it kept getting louder raise your right hand and it got right up to my ear and it's like raise your right hand and i was like but you said don't break the chain and he's like oh well you can go ahead and do it now and that's when you end up on your knees it's a ceremony and i don't think they're all the same their book and their claran is the claran the claran they call it the claran wow k-l-o-r-a-n yeah jeez blindfold comes off there's the chaplain the clud and his green robe and hood and's got a sword. And I'm disoriented.
It's pitch black. I'm like, what the hell's the guy? And I'm trying to work out in my head.
What am I doing? And if I step back, it'd be easy to figure out. But maybe I'm not a smart man.
So I go, okay. And we kind of hug each other.
Now it's time for me to go get my music equipment. So I'm walking across this property out in the middle of nowhere.
It's pitch black. And I'm going through my head because I'm thinking legally stuff.
I'm thinking like, I'm an undercover coordinator. Did I do something that was supposed to get approval for? What did I just do? Am I allowed to accidentally join the KKK as part of this operation? Because I'm pretty sure that's what just happened.
Yeah. Is there an approval process? And I remember walking across the field.
I remember stopping and thinking and playing it back.

And I'm like, I think I just joined the damn clan.

I did.

I sure did.

Do they make you bring your own hood with holes in it?

Or is it like you can order that from someplace?

You get fitted.

Okay.

You pass the K.

There's a K-Uno, K-Duo, K-Trio, and K-Quad test.

They call it that because that sounds a lot like spanish man i don't know yeah i know right um but yeah i passed the k uno test this written test we had clan craft class every week where you're learning things historically it's cool i thought not the fact that they're white supremacy yeah i was gonna say you better qualify that before yeah no but the history of the secret society being around so long so you see an acronym and it might be a y a k you need to know that's are you a klansman it may be a k i a and it's a klansman i am it might be sand bog it's like strangers are near be on guard ladies of the invisible empire these things. And that's what we would have class on every week because that's part of your test.
So as far as history, secret, national treasure, Mason, whatever, it was interesting. It was funny to see the note that one of these gangs, they were like, where do we co-opt other people? And I was like, the Freemasons.
And somebody else was like, nah, it's all old guys. It's a funny observation because when you hear about Freemasons, they control this, they control that.
But then whenever you see a Freemason, it's a dude talking on a cell phone in a Walmart parking lot. He's got 50 extra pounds and a gray beard and he's got a cane.
And you're like, these people are not secretly controlling the world. This guy's just trying to get his damn prescription.
The invisible empire. So yeah, that was crazy.
That case, we didn't arrest anybody. That case kind of went in the crapper.
Yeah. Aside from their ideology being total crap, they almost seem harmless in some ways.
It's like an old boys club. Yeah.
Families. They have families there.
Other than the belief system, it's bad, but it's not like they were out there lighting crosses in people's yards. But I learned valuable things like diesel fuel is called clan cologne.
There's no way you don't come away from something like that smelling weird. Yeah.
You've got this 20, 30 foot metal cross, you wrap it in burlap, and then you use metal twine that tie the burlap onto it and you soak all the burlap in diesel fuel. You got to stand that cross up.
And there's really no way to stand that cross up without you getting it on you i reeked of diesel fuel and then when i got home i made the mistake of throwing it in with my regular laundry oh no not a smart man how many of these guys light themselves on fire after they're soaked in diesel fuel and then they light across on fire they'd be out there smoking cigarettes oh man or lighting fireworks and there's diesel fuel i'm like look man yeah i know you Yeah. I know you have a third grade education, but let me explain something to you.
It may not kill them. They probably survived just fine.
But me, I'd probably be blown to bits. Oh, my God.
Yeah. What's interesting about this is a lot of the crime organizations that you infiltrated.
Crime is it seems like it's about drugs, money. Maybe there's a little element of revenge.
You mentioned that in the book. But these ideological groups, are they harder to crack because they have supposedly have the belief system as opposed to just this guy can make us some money? That might be a case by case basis.
Depends on kind of like when we talked about the blocker stuff, depending on the chapter. It could be the same organization, but each chapter is a little different different one chapter might be older people that have jobs and already did their time and they don't want any attention and the other chapter might be fully young people that just want to be thugs or whatever i think maybe a case-by-case basis but a lot of them are recruiting trying to make their numbers bigger but their vetting processes are pretty good some are very good and then And then we'll get to the base, I'm sure.
But every time the base was infiltrated, their operational security, their offset got tighter. It's like, how did we get infiltrated? We should have known better.
We need to change our vetting process. It gets tougher and tougher as they add more layers on.
I assume they usually recruit through word of mouth, like, oh, my cousin would be into this or whatever. But it seems like also you see a lot of this stuff online where you see dog whistles or little flags where it's like some Reddit account will post a bunch of stuff and people are like, this guy again, get out of here.
And he's got like negative 100 karma or whatever it's called on Reddit. And you just wonder, why is this guy doing this? Either he's trolling or he's waiting for the one person who sends him a message that's like, hey, man, I agree with you.
And he's like, all right, yeah, you got to sign up for this Discord server or go into this private website where we can rope you into this stuff. It just seems exhausting.
They've got to be doing that or they would quickly run out of people if you're only recruiting your neighbors and your family. Yeah.
And the circles are a lot tighter than most would think. Once you start getting into groups, if I was legit and active, like a lot of these subjects are, they may change their moniker, but maybe your telegram group got canceled and there's a new telegram group or there's terror watch, Idlewise, anything crazy.
We take down the criminals, the people with that ideology, they're just going to hop to the next group. Now, am I going to say there's millions of them that were ready to come to your doorstep tomorrow? No.
But are they dangerous? Absolutely. I think so.
Because especially in domestic terrorism world, you're looking for those one-offs. You're looking for those long wolves.
And how do you figure that out without just monitoring and monitoring or word of mouth? But a lot of those groups, they are recruiting. They are actively recruiting.
And the base actively recruited on Gab and Telegram and places like that. So what I notice is a lot of these guys, they're kind of huge losers.
And a lot of them, you said, are unemployed. What do the other guys do for a living? I always wonder, do you see professionals in these groups, lawyers, doctors, and engineers? What are you mostly seeing in these groups? In the accelerationist group, new neo-Nazi groups, the ones I infiltrated.
I can only speak for those or the ones I might've been a case agent working. Even in the base, we had one guy that was a truck driver.
He had decent money, had a job. Another one was like a computer, an IT guy.
But then again, Some of them were like young, some of them didn't have jobs. Or if they did, they were like part-time or small-time, nothing huge.
However, look at the leader. You look at Ronaldo Nazaro, who was the leader of the base, who's still trying to get it back on track.
Recently, I get an article sent to me from Guardian. Somebody said, hey, man, check this out.
So the Guardian is covering that Renato Nazaro is actively recruiting again for the base. Nazaro is an American citizen born, a Villanova grad, former Army, worked intel side, was supposedly contracted in the Department of Justice.
Maybe it was Department of Defense, But in the beginning, the word was that he had been a contractor in the FBI. But I don't think that came to fruition.
Either way, though, now this guy resides in Russia, and he has created this group, the base. Now, he says there's no leaders, but he was the leader.
Man, this might be a little bit outside your scope, but does Russia encourage these guys? I mean, obviously, they're enabling him to do this because it's bad for the United States. But is there any evidence when you do these cases that they're getting aid from Russia, like expertise, advice, funding or anything like that? Yes, there is from a lot of our threat countries.
It's tough because when you dive deep, now we're getting into classified information. You know what I mean?

But as far as the criminal side goes, yeah, it's been found.

And it's not just on the white supremacy side.

Russia, China, they put money in to create chaos in the United States.

Let's just take TikTok.

The Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial.

They'll look at the home and say, okay, a mother and daughter and a father and son.

This is how silly it is, but it's just to create chaos.

Thank you. Depp Amber Heard trial.
They'll look at the home and say, okay, a mother and daughter and a father and son. This is how silly it is, but it's just to create chaos.
Let's inundate the men with Johnny Depp stuff and inundate the women with Amber Heard stuff just to cause an argument at the dinner table. Interesting.
But yeah, like the funding has been found. Now I don't think it's huge publicly and I don't think I'm giving away too much.
You can see criminal stuff, but the idea is to sow chaos. Let me put it this way.
If you see towns being burnt down and all this stuff that we just mentioned, they're loving it too. They want the destabilization.
I can see a world in which Iran is funding a white supremacist group, and it's ironic, I suppose, because that would be money well spent for the theocracy, right? Let's fund a white supremacist group. They're never really going to succeed.
They're never really going to get to us, but they are going to cause problems for law enforcement and other things in the United States. And they're going to give a black eyed image to the United States.
We could even have them do something and then say, see, the United States is full of Nazis. So we're the good guys, right? I can see a country like Iran, Russia, China doing that here.
It's almost just like a really easy play for them. The Ukraine war and a lot of these white supremacy groups, especially like neo-Nazis, especially accelerations, they were always talking about, hey, let's get our shit together, get our money, and let's go over to Ukraine and fight with the Azov Battalion.
So they're fighting Russia, the Azov Battalion. It's white supremacy.
Yeah, I've heard about that. I wanted to do something about that because then the take from pro-Russia is that, hey, the whole Ukrainian army is this neo-Nazi outfit.
And what's interesting is I got a couple of people that I know that are Israeli special forces and they were like, Azov Battalion, I went there and trained them. Yeah, they have a bunch of white supremacist guys, but really they hate Russians.
That's what they really hate is Russians. Do they hate Jews? Probably, but they didn't have any problem working with us.
And we told them how to launch javelins or whatever it was that they were doing over there. And I thought that was interesting.
It's like, they're sitting there working with the Israeli army because they want to fight Russians. That was too rich, but I suppose my enemy is my friend.
Yeah. I'm going back to your Iran thing.
That's funny. Yeah.
White power. Yeah.
Wait a minute. Exactly.
And the Jewish guys are just like, I'm going to go have lunch. You guys do your white power thing.
I'll be back in an hour. It was sad, right? Because a lot of these guys are edgy teens.
Sometimes they're literally teenagers. They're unemployed.
They're losers. And there's this dialogue where this guy says, man, I'm going to have to kill my dad and my ex-fiancee because she's black once this ethnostate is formed.
And it's just, I'm just bummed about it. What in the walking contradiction is going on here? Your ex-fiancee was black, but you want to form a white ethnostate.
And then you got to kill your dad because he's going to be against the ethnostate. And it's just, it's really sad because you can just see these guys are like, they're willing to tank their whole lives and kill people that they love for this thing that's never going to happen.
And they're going through it. And it's just like, what gets you to that point? We believe you're part of a cause, right? And the one that specifically said that stuff that was leading that conversation, he's from Canada.
He was being trained up. So first time I heard about his ex-fiance being of color, we were on a hike, but a lot of those conversations would be sitting out by the barn late in the evening.
He was crying. He's like, when the D-Day happens, when the boogaloo kicks off, if you're not fascist, that automatically makes you anti-fascist and the penalty is death.
and he said i know i'm probably gonna have to put a bullet in the back of my dad's head i can do it but he's crying while he's saying it and then another base member says i could kill my dad too who's just upstairs by the way i could kill my dad too but i'd cry myself to sleep every day so i'd probably get somebody else do it. And then the other one that was out there that night, Pestilence said, you guys are farther along than me because I couldn't kill my parents.
He was definitely dealing more with like the order of nine angles, Satanism, white supremacy sect. But yeah, for me, I just look at it like good versus evil.
Break it down, not left versus right. And even if you're not a believer and you don't believe in spiritual warfare and whatever, okay, but good versus evil.
Generally speaking, you know what's good. There are people who don't, and there's a term for those people.
They got some psychological stuff and it comes in all forms. But I did see a lot of young guys that had probably been bullied.
Definitely outcasts. Don't have a partner.
Can't get a partner. And they get on the phone.
They get on your smartphone and you dive deep into a rabbit hole every night of hate, whether it's on Gab, Telegram, Discord. There was a 4chan, an 8chan, a 12chan.
There was Threema, Wire, Riot, riot you name it all this stuff but proton mail and stuff it's all things that they think can't be subpoenaed by the feds and it's used for nefarious activity but you dive deep into that and you start believing so there's so much ai stuff out there now or just false reporting i remember when i was in in a lot of these groups, even as a case agent, I'm like, is this real or not? Because it looks freaking real. So you got to pull and go, okay, well, let me look at what the left's reporting.
Let me look at what the right's reporting and find the truth somewhere in the middle. But they're diving into that and they're believing it.
Also on Gab, I hopped into the groups called 14 Words, shocker, whites only white supremacists in there and that's where i was seeing the uh base propaganda and recruiting stuff but what they would do is like a recruitment thing or to make you pro-white anti-anything not white is they would do like a montage of real things that happened so there was a brutal murder of a young couple white boy white girl in east tennessee and it was probably one of the most horrific things i've ever after the fact looked at it said damn just rape and beat and folded them in half put them in a drum a lie i'm just torture and they both died and that was three black guys and a black woman you take that and you show that and then it's followed by that thing that went viral with i think it was the three or four black teams that were beating and laughing at the white mentally and physically challenged kid in the corner and they show that and they show like a video that's been captured of a black man beating a white female cop or a black man coming into doing a home invasion and beating a white woman they do that and that's stuff that really happens but it happens on the opposite side as well yeah sure of course you could be a black extremist and you could show all the bad things that white people have done to people of color. And you can use that.
But it's just divide. It's just hate.
I'm not trying to preach to anybody. But look, if you've ever seen a good depiction of the devil, it's just going around whispering in ears.
I come over and I whisper to you, man, Jordan, you hear what Scott said about you? I can't believe you're going to let somebody get away with that. And then it comes over to me and goes, hey, did you hear what Jordan said he's gonna do about you? And you're just creating chaos and you're division and hate.
Man. And it works on damaged people.
You've got some depictions of some pretty crazy folks. Tammy, the torturer.
This is a person who she just had screws loose in every part of her psyche. You think? Yeah.
Yeah. Oh, Tammy, me and a good friend of mine,'s a task force officer, we did an undercover and it was basically a murder for hire, but they hired us to do four home invasions and

murder two people.

Two specific people, I assume, not just two random.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because what it was is her son was moving drugs and money for the main dealers.

So he knew where all the guns, the open money was at. So that's how they got the information.
And their idea was to take them all out, get a bunch of money. So we meet and we're talking about stuff.
And I remember we got there and we thought we were going to be talking to the husband and the husband's like, that's not really my idea. It was my wife.
So I go, where's your wife? She's sleeping. I said, you're going I said you gotta go get her up you want me to I said I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to you if it's not your plan I'm here to make money so we get Tammy and she hops in the truck she's in the front passenger seat other guys in the back seat and we're driving around looking at these spots casing the place I just remember driving and uh she's like you know i'm really into torture you need anybody tortured i love torture i'm like okay i'm being nonchalant by this time i'm towards the end of my career this is my skill set and she says you know you can take a clothes hanger and you can bend it on the end and you can shove it into a man's penis and then rip it back out.
And when you rip it out, then you pour salt down his penis. Oh God.
Okay. Now you sound a lot like the other people in the truck.
Yeah. Oof.
Ooh. Yeah.
Tammy, did you think of that one yourself? That's a little disturbing. And what she didn't know is two weeks prior, I'd had a lumbar fusion to correct the first lumbar fusion that broke free and i didn't know what i've been going around approximately 15 years when my back was disconnected geez but it wasn't the back surgery that hurt because they've come so far in 20 years or 18 years since i'd had my first fusion but they jacked my privates up and i had to be dry caft because i couldn't pee so they're like you can go home if you can pee and i'm like i can't pee and it starts hurting and i got dry caft so she's telling the story about this clothes hanger going into a penis and ripping it back out and i'm thinking that's pretty close to what happened to me they didn't pour salt down it but it hurt really bad oh so then she says you can take a pvc pipe and you can jam it up somebody's anus and then run barbed wire up through there and rip their colon or anus out from the inside out through the PVC pipe.
And I remember pulling up to a red light. Again, everybody's going, good Lord.
And I lean over and I'm just like, why are you so angry? Yeah. Oh, no, I'm not.
I'm just in a torture. And I'm like, do you want to kill these people? She's like, well, no, I'm too well known around here.
But if you need somebody tortured, then she starts to be driving to another spot. And she tells us a story of her husband, very skinny man, that he had done something she told him to never do again.
And he went on a cocaine bender and was gone for like three or four days. She couldn't get a hold of him.
She didn't know where he was at. She was pissed.
He finally comes home and he is, I guess he's been up the whole time because he crashed hard, like out cold. So she says she took a two by four and put it behind his legs and took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum to the board.
And it didn't wake him up.

I guess he'd been up that long.

I guess that's lucky that he didn't wake up from that.

But I bet when he woke up, he was very unhappy.

Picture it.

Picture a board stuck to the back of you hooked to your ball sack.

And the first thing you do is you try to get up.

So that's how you wake up is you try to roll over like, I need some water.

Holy moly.

She said he was screaming for her to get the staples out. And she said, no, he had to call a friend to come do it.
Good luck finding the phone. It's 20 feet away, buddy.
Dang on a string in front of you. I'm sorry, honey.
People will do anything but get a marriage therapist. Jesus.
Even a lot of thought and effort going into robbing four houses or doing four home invasions murdering two people i'm like if you took some of that and applied it to a legit job or something good yeah so which after she tells the scrotum stapling story we pull up to red light and i lean over and i said do you watch a lot of slasher flicks and she said oh yeah that's all i watch and i was like okay surprise surprise and she started talking about like the human centipede where they sewed the face to it i'm like but in my mind i'm giggling to myself going these are my people yeah i mean she's over there clawing her skin flakes of skin going everywhere she's tweaking meth head somebody like that i do not want to know what their childhood is like this is a person who is terrible but obviously they were not born that way. She is the product of abuse that is unspeakable, I'm sure.
True. My buddy in the back said, I think his line was after the staple in the scruddle thing, he goes, man, you really don't like men, do you? She said, I've been unlucky in love.
Oh yeah. I bet you have, Tammy.
I was like, damn. Yeah.
But not as unlucky as her ex-boyfriends have been in love. Those guys.
Well, we meet the husband again, and we asked, dude, did she staple your balls to a two-by-four with an industrial spade? He goes, hell yeah, she did. He goes, man, I knew.
He goes, I never had no woman ever do that to me. I knew she was the right one, and I'm like.
Yeah, okay. I don't want to know what your upbringing was like.
She must make a mean macaroni casserole if you're putting up with that. I'm like, boy, howdy.
Of course, at his sentencing, he said that he was scared of it. I believe that.
And I'm like, you know, I mean, from the stories I heard, I kind of am too. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. My God, that's crazy.
So I found it interesting. You mentioned this early in the book.
De-esation is your best weapon, even as a big guy, right? As a dude who can handle himself, you say multiple times. I found that quite interesting.

That's the way I was taught.

Do you want to pour gas on a fire?

Did you light the fire and you want to pour gas on it?

I was taught this by some big-ass tough dudes.

It's just, I'm in your place.

If something gets messed up, hey, man, all due respect, man. My bad.

I'm in your place. If something gets messed up, hey, man, all due respect, man.
My bad. I'm sorry.
I'm out. But without making it a sexual reference, your mouth is probably your best weapon.
You got to talk. You have to talk, at least for me, in the situations I was in.
And now a word from our sponsors, almost none of which are Nazi terrorist militias. We'll be right back.
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important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with

Scott Payne. I think a lot of people assume, oh, if you're this big, tough dude, the best thing you

can do is just show how tough you are all the time. But it does make sense to deescalate, especially if you're trying to build trust with people.
You're trying to show, hey, look, I'm smart enough to let cooler heads prevail because we're all on the same team here. We're trying to do business, not just break bottles over each other's heads or whatever it is.
One observation I noticed towards the end of the book is the irony of a lot of these accelerationist gangs, white supremacist gangs, is that they are in many ways the biggest bunch of seemingly dumbass inbred loser drug addicts. Not all of them, but a lot of them that you described.
That was a lot of adjectives. It was.
It all came out at once. But the point I'm trying to make is if actual Nazis took over the government like these guys want, they would be the first ones to get exterminated because they are total waste to society.
They don't have any skills. They're not smart.
They have all these hangups and weaknesses. They would be the first ones to get euthanized under an actual sort of pseudo neo-Nazi government.
It depends on the groups. I don't like to dehumanize.
I don't like to belittle because dead is dead.

If I showed you a picture of the kids from Columbine before Columbine happened, what would you have said?

If I showed you a picture of the kid in Charleston, South Carolina, that murdered numerous African-Americans, I don't like to say their name.

I can understand that.

But I'll tell you this.

Sometimes in the undercover world, I have to say their name because we're talking about what they did. Or'm talking about an undercover where the guy says i want to do something in the spirit but in the tactical world we never say their name because that's what they wanted that's what they want i'll mention every victim i'll mention every victim from colin byne and we can name them all but we just don't want to say their names generally speaking i can get behind that because otherwise glorified.
Yeah. So if I showed you a picture of the Charleston kid, right? Haircut, barely can fill up a Gold's Gym tank top with a 45 and Rebel flack.
What would you say? How about the kid from Aurora, Colorado? Orange and yellow hair? I'm not saying these people aren't dangerous. I think they are especially dangerous.
I just mean that if they ever got what they wanted, they would be down the drain first thing. This would be the first wave of people you get rid of is these kind of loser, useless guys.
Look at the rhetorical question I asked. We were out hiking or whatever, and I'm just seeing what they're going to say, maybe stirring the pot, having fun on my own.
But I'm like, so we're all neo-Nazis. Yeah, we're all ready for Boogaloo.
Yeah, we want Nazi back. We want Hitler back.
Yeah. Which one of us is going to be Hitler? Yeah and it just gets quiet they're gonna be one they're gonna be one who's gonna be it what you're saying kind of reminds me of me growing up in the big anarchy days it's like anarchy anarchy i'm like this is before purge and all that stuff were movies i just remember thinking i'm like if there were really no rules and there were no ramifications do you you think you're gonna last for you the first victim yeah i've seen so many doomsday preppers man i'm like, if there were really no rules and there were no ramifications, do you think you're going to last?

You're the first victim.

Yeah.

I've seen so many doomsday preppers, man.

I'm like, you're prepping, you're prepping.

Okay.

You look and you go, if you think like a bad person, I want you to stock up on all your food.

I want you to stock up on all your weapons and ammo because when D-Day hits, I'm coming and taking you out.

Yeah.

And it's all there.

Exactly.

You're one guy or two guys with a rifle. I'm going to bring 20 guys and tell them you got all this stuff in your house.
Yeah. Well, you're not going to take us all out.
You get into some of these groups, man, and it's just scary, but it's also sad. You see some of them and you're like, man, that dude, he's been bullied.
Maybe some of them are on the spectrum, on that autism spectrum. Asperger's not saying that makes you anything.
I'm not trying to generalize. I'm just saying.
Most of them become software engineers or some kind of genius level thing. They don't become Nazi or white separatist, whatever Christian identity.
But maybe that has something to do with the disconnect with society. And then again, it's a case by case basis.
But there are groups out there like Eradicate Hate Global Summit. They hold that once a year in Pittsburgh.
It started after the Tree of Life massacre. And I've got a lot of friends and contacts out there now blessed enough to be a part of it.
And they're doing all kinds of stuff. And that's kind of like an umbrella thing.
You partner with Life After Hate. They call them formers, but you've got like a former radical jihadist who recruited kids to blow stuff up.
They're on the right path now. You've got former skinheads, white supremacists, black separatists.
And at the end of the day, we're all trying to spread knowledge and stop hate. Yeah.
I've had a few of those guys on the show. Christian Picciolini, maybe you know him, former skinhead.
He's been on the show. And I had Eamon Dean on who was like, memorized the Koran, went to Bosnia to fight the infidels.
And then he just witnessed all these guys he thought were good Muslims chainsawing someone's head off who was just essentially in the army. And he's like, this is corrupting all these nice people.
And he eventually went undercover, did incredible work, and is now speaking out on the right side. That's a courageous move some of these guys are making to come out of that and then go on the other side.
It's really impressive, honestly, because you have to admit that you were wrong in public for a long time and it becomes part of your identity. And then you have to help other people in the way that you were helped.
It's really a gutsy thing. We'll link to those episodes in the show notes.
I know we're running out of time. Can you go out in public with your family? Because it seems like somebody could spot you.
Or do you just live so far away from all these areas where you used to operate? No, I could be spotted. I'm a musician and a singer.
I play at a pretty big church. Yeah, I could be spotted.
There's some people like in certain cases during the takedown, I'm like, man, I'm kind of worried about a couple of these suspects or defendants. And I'd like to talk to them face-to-face.
The way I've always tried to be is your best defense is a good offense. That's me.
Maybe that doesn't work for the situation of the person, but I wanted to get out in front of it and actually have the conversation right there with that person about any kind of types of retaliation or whatever. There are a few maybe from the base if they got out, I might be a little concerned, but I don't live in fear, but I don't walk around blindfolded because again, I come from the criminal world of law enforcement.
Once we make that arrest, even if I'm arrested with them, you know, to save something for the case or whatever, or however you want to work it, at some point they're going to sit down with their defense attorney and they going to get all the discovery. And they're going to hear my voice on a recording saying, this is UCE whatever, 1, 2, 3, 4.
It's March 7th, 2025, approximately 5.55 p.m. Eastern time, and I'm going to be going in to meet so-and-so.
And they're going to know that. Wow.
That must be a hell of a moment for some of these guys because they don't suspect you initially. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in the place where they are if they suspected you.
A lot of them say they do, though. They do? I knew it.
What you hear a lot of is when you arrest them, they go, oh, hell, I knew you were undercover. Yeah, that's why you just sold me an RPG because you knew it.
Yeah. You sold me cocaine for a year and a half.
Yeah, just because you knew. I don't get political on the show, so I'm curious if we can handle this in a non-political way, but what do you think about all the cuts at FBI, ATF, these organizations right now? I'm worried we're going to end up with super strong organized crime groups or a terrorist attack because we're getting rid of all these qualified people.
The FBI could have used some cleaning up. That's an interesting perspective.
I came in under Louis Free. And in my opinion, that is the last real director the FBI has had.
Now, he was also phenomenal. He was also a former FBI agent and a former assistant United States Attorney, which is going to be a rare find.
It's kind of like finding a commander in chief that has military experience. You just don't see it a lot anymore but louie took a boatload of desk positions out of headquarters and pushed them back to the field and we were a law enforcement agency now muller came in and it was on the cusp of 9-11 so something had to be done but in my opinion and a lot of my peers and people i've worked with over the years that are law enforcement officers pushed us the wrong way he wanted to make us an intelligence agency like little cia within the united states and we still work that stuff but at the end of the day the fbi is a law enforcement organization under moeller you're taking people from fortune 500 companies goldman sachs and you're making them in the top three or four positions of the FBI.
What the hell do you know about law enforcement and national security? Seriously. And then you start dealing with all these matrix and threat assessments and whatnot.
I've got unbelievable friends who are unbelievable analysts and stuff, but I can tell you as a criminal investigator, all the cases I did,

that kind of noise and smoke never helped me on a single case.

And Mueller created a boatload more positions at headquarters.

And it gets to the point to where you got a revolving door that's sitting

across the board.

But generally speaking,

your hard workers who love being case agents and building cases and putting bad people in jail, generally speaking, historically, in my 23 years in the FBI, they don't go to headquarters and they don't move up to the top of the chain. Say you're in New York City and you want to get out of New York City because you can't stand it.
All right. You can put in for a desk and you can move to D.C.
If willing to stay in the Jager here, building making ranks, not as hard as it would be out in the field. And it got a little crazy.
Like say you're putting in for a supervisor position and you write all these things that you've done, like all these cases you've ran, these task forces you've started or how you led by example, or all these things you have, these leadership skills to show but you didn't do any headquarters time and you can have years and years of experience and hundreds of arrests and great cases that made great impacts in the areas you were in but the person that puts in against you did a year at headquarters they trump you really and it became a disconnect you would always hear the argument of it's not the rank and file it's the disconnect between headquarters i know plenty of people at headquarters that are Unbelievable. Really? news, bad news, whatever.
I'm telling you right now, it was absolutely wrong what they did. And because of what they did in the after action, when everybody comes in and does an investigation, every agent and task force officer were mandated to take hours upon hours of training, mandatory training to show you and teach you what you're not supposed to do, because it's what they learned from those investigations.
What happened with those people? I'm not in the loop on that. That was the Russia hoax and all that stuff.
When you get

warrants, I would say, hey, Jordan

says this person is

absolutely dirty, but

I don't show that we investigated 10 other

people that said Jordan's full of shit

and he's been proven to be full of shit. You

got to turn it all over. I see.
So that was

selective release of information.

But is it their fault? Should you be

running a case out of headquarters? I never saw one that was awesome, not to knock headquarters. It's just that to be a certain age and be at the top of the FBI, you can't have worked the shit ton of cases at that age.
The math doesn't work. The math doesn't work.
You could say you led stuff. If you're a supervisor of a squad and maybe you led some stuff, maybe you did the traditional training officer where i put you on my hip and we're going to go work this case together but i'm going to show you how to do this you can learn it teach it and go on but once you're an asac of a division or an sac and you start moving up these higher positions to say you're running a case and led a case i'm not buying it so there's some cleaning up that needs to be done look for the for the longest, it was DEA in the hot seat.
It was ATF, Fast and Furious, and all these things in the hot seat. But I will tell you, in my personal opinion, since Comey, man, we took the baton and the FBI has not dropped it.
There's so many great things the FBI does, but I still love the FBI. I'm pro FBI.
And if you read the book, I don't bash the FBI at all. No, you don't.
That's why I asked that question at the end, because I was curious what your actual opinion was. And you did not disappoint.
What keeps you up at night? Former FBI could be in any sort of subject matter. I don't care.
What keeps you up at night? What are you worried about right now when it comes to this country or the FBI in general? That's a good question. I haven't been asked that question.
I should do this for a living. It's almost as if you know what you're doing.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's not get carried away.
I don't know, Jordan. It's just the way my mind works.
I'm a glasses half full guy. I'm an optimist all the way.
There's always going to be another bad group. What I want people to understand is, even if you don't like what we do we do and my argument used to always be don't be mad at the law enforcement officer we're actually peace officers it used to say on every car to serve and protect we're just enforcing the law if you don't like the law change the law but then i we went into the realm where you're just picking and choosing what they want to charge on who and when and a murderer gets a bond and a white collar guy doesn't i'm like what the hell i mean you know the world's upside down kind of thing but i just want people to understand that there are evil people on this planet that want to do evil things to good people and it's been that way pretty much since the dawn of time i've got relatives i've got friends i've got loved ones some of them can't deal with that they'll see one story and you're like i can't believe.
And I'm thinking, man, if you only knew. But you need us on the wall.
Is every cop bad? Absolutely not. Have there been some bad cops that do horrific things? Yeah.
And they should be buried under the jail as far as I'm concerned. But again, spreading knowledge, learning, because we can go back to the 80s.
Same thing with the gang. Gang pops into town.
I did it somebody said i'm a member of the crips i'm moving in greenville south carolina like crips you need to go back to la we don't have no gangs here guess what happened in two months they were full fledged and south carolina wow because you put your blinders on so keeping me up at night battling evil battling evil yeah there's a lot of stuff you could be worried about, but like you said, glass half full, that's probably the only way you stay sane in your line of work though. Glass half full.
Otherwise the whole world just looks like a pretty horrific place full of accelerationists and dudes missing fingers from their donkey party and all that kind of stuff. I mean, that would make you go nuts.
It could have been a good night for that guy. I don't know.
I'm not judging. But you're right.
You got to have that glass half full kind of mentality. Otherwise, your whole world is like that.
And then what's the point of saving it? It's a very good point. And since I've retired, I've been able to sit at tables where it's somebody completely different than my lifestyle on the opposite spectrum.
But we start having a conversation and you share things like, how often do you think it is is that a uniform cop shows up and he's warm welcome i can tell you my experience it wasn't that all i mean most i got get out of my house why are you pulling me over could that wear on your psyche as a cop absolutely there's all kinds of training out there and things you can do but it still happens it's human nature you're getting spit at and cussed at and disrespected and things that i would have in the circles i grew up in to talk to somebody like that to their face and be able to walk away not so much but could that turn into now you see people dressed a certain way and you associate that with that behavior and now everybody becomes a piece of shit to you it can happen and then on the other spectrum maybe you grew up in the south side of chicago like my good buddy did and his experiences with cops were terrible and he couldn't stand the cops but we'd sit down and have conversations i don't know man me my peers mentors people i've mentored is you look at it as a uh we're shepherds, right? Bullies of bullies, livestock guardian dogs. I used to be an offensive lineman.
I feel like I was a way better defensive lineman, but it is what it is. But I always said law enforcement to me is offensive lineman because they don't want you until they need you.
If the team's winning, it's because the receivers, the running backs, and the quarterback are awesome. But if the team's losing, it's because the offensive line sucks.

They don't get the credit.

So it's that same mentality.

But yeah, talking, sitting down at the table, spreading knowledge.

So far, so good.

It's okay for you to like something I don't.

It's okay for me to like something you don't.

We still get along.

I can accept that, I suppose.

You like to eat?

Oh, yeah, we have that in common, too.

Bam!

Tell us about the goat sacrifice.

How do you even end up in a situation where they're sacrificing a goat, first of all, asking for a friend? Yeah. This group where I was in the base, pretty much everybody was pagan.
And again, nothing against pagan. I got some great friends that are pagans, even though I'm a Christ follower.
But again, they twist some of the pagan stuff. Hitler used a lot of norse mythology that's right raiders of the lost ark kind of stuff but we were having pagan rituals and we were doing stuff and they just kept getting more aggressive and we ended up to this camp and halloween of 2019 halloween i remember the temperature dropped like i don't know some 40 50 degrees it had not been that cold and all of a sudden it was like 16 degrees everything was ice and they talked about doing a sacrifice and I fell asleep in the truck for a little bit because you out there freezing cold you hop in the truck the charger the battery on your phone the heater's on so I wake up to a banging on my window hey bell horse man you're not gonna believe you gotta see this you gotta see You got to see this.
You got to see this. And I get out.
I'm like, what's going on? They're like, remember we talked about the Ram. We got it.
It ends up, they were supposed to go somewhere far away. They went to place on a mile down the road.
The dude had three goats or Rams in his backyard. They went there with all their fleck tarn on.
And one of the other members, trucks bailed out, almost got caught, steal the goat, put it in the truck, bring it back. And that's when I woke up.
Oh, geez. So this is someone's livestock or pet goat or whatever? Oh, man.
And the member that was going to be leading the blot that night, his real name was William Bilbro. But his middle name was Garfield after his grandfather.
And he named the goat Gar after Garfield and his grandfather. This thing is crapping all over the bed of the truck.
And I remember one of the base dima he says man this thing's shitting all over the place and i was like well hell i would be too if a bunch of neanderthals with black balaclavas and flectorn machine guns jumped out and pulled me over here and i remember watching and i'm thinking man we're getting ready to do this thing i think and i go over to eisen I'm like, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat?

And he said, hey, don't even think like that.

We're showing this goat love.

This love is going to be sacrificed to Odin.

It's going to Valhalla.

It needs to know the love we have for it.

And we just don't need any negative vibes,

basically, is what he was saying.

I've made the joke.

He didn't get it, but I'm doing the whole Talladega.

I'm just like, I'm just going to push that baseball down deep.

Never going to bring it up again. Just going to push it down.
Never bring up me feeling sorry for the goat again. We were getting ready to do it or go down to the holy area, the ritual area.
And I had some recording devices on, obviously. And my case team could listen.
And for that, if I'm out in the field, there's a cover team out there. So I was out in the field four or five days.
So there's a cover team running shifts. And they're 24 hours on me, which I appreciate.
Jeez, are they just sitting in a van? Are they pretending to camp nearby or something like that? Let's just say a building that was no longer in use. And they used that and brought in some generators and everything.
Yeah. So I remember going over to my device and I lean in and I go, Hey, if you're listening,

I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to sacrifice this goat that they just stole.

And I can't think of anything really to shut the op down.

They stole the goat.

That's okay. That's a crime, but our federal, no.

Is it sacrificing it?

Animal cruelty.

If you eat it, hunters, this, I'm doing all this in my head yeah and i'm like if you don't want me doing this send me a sign hit me reach out to me do something and i sit there quiet and i'm staring and i'm listening and it's quiet and i go okay looks like we're going down in the woods and we carry this thing down in the woods gar i miss a long walk man it's a little harrowing because you're doing that whole thing where you got like a lantern not really a flashlight so anybody we're carrying torches or whatever anybody in a mile from us could see this glow walking through the woods but you can't see anything past 10 feet right so we get down there and eisen starts the blot and he's talking about how this is going to be the beginning of the wild hunt which in norse mythology that's when odin and a bunch of other guys just went on a rampage kicking everybody's tail and killing all the enemies but in eisen's mind the base's mind it was going to be the kickoff to the boogaloo and the wild hunt was going to be us cleansing the world eventually of non-whites again not a lot of forethought or afterthought like how's that going to work but okay don't worry about it we'll figure it out as it goes yeah so then he goes to sacrifice the goat and now we're all in a circle around the goat and he's already said look we're going to sacrifice this goat to odin to go to balhalla and we can start this wild hunt basically and And somehow I'd ended up at the back of the goat. I don't know, it wasn't smart, but I'm holding the back of the goat by its hind legs.
Oh God, that's how you get your fingers bit off, man. That's me, I should have learned my lesson.
I didn't carry that one with me, that little piece of knowledge. So I'm holding the back of it and he's's got basically machete and he's rearing back as hard as he can coming down practice swing he's doing nice slow and he's like it may take two hits and somebody finally says just do it yeah and he rears back with everything he's got bam hits this goat right on the back strap and you hear this loud thud jordan i don't even know if it broke a hair on its back i don't know if it was a dull knife clearly the back strap on a ram or goat is very sturdy and it was like here the goat go i had that kind of movie experience where you see everything happening in your head i'm like i just saw this scene of blood going everywhere and just a vicious killing of this animal.
And then somebody says, do it again, do it again. And then somebody says, hey, does anybody have a pistol? This one guy who had been up for 48 hours straight on Adderall worked a third shift in Austin, Texas, drove nonstop to North Georgia, except for the second or two, he fell asleep in Alabama and hit somebody rear-ended him.
He was probably the worst tactically sound person to handle a weapon. And he didn't listen to the rules.
Pestilence and TMB, they ran a pretty tight ship as far as safety goes on the range. So I was very pleased with that for safety reasons for myself, obviously.
But when they asked, Hey, weapon that one guy zoom that was like i got mine and even me and luke both were like what because he said no weapons down there we're gonna do the sacrifice kind of thing so he pulls out his pistol and i think luke takes it somebody takes it out of his hands thankfully hands it to eisen so we're still in a circle and eisen's going to shoot the goat but he kind of points towards the goat and then turns his head completely away and that's when the instructor came out of me i'm like whoa you're supposed to look at what you're shooting right i'm no expert exactly right and that's what i said because he didn't know what he's aiming at i'm hey look at what you're shooting at we're all in a circle yeah and he. And he pops one right in his head.
And when he pops in his head, you can, I mean, even on the recording, you hear the goat hit the ground. But it kicks for several minutes and it's still kicking.
I said, hey, man, it might still be alive. I'm pretty sure it's dead.
And I said, the love we were showing the goat and all, it's going to Valhalla. Let's make sure this is a peaceful transition.
Air quotation? Sure. Jeez.
bullet in and then somebody finally you can hear on the record somebody's like oh and now it's definitely dead and then they commence to slicing its throat and filling the glass full of its blood and passing it around in the circle eisen had brought some acid and i ended up holding the flashlight for eisen as he's tearing tabs of acid off everybody's on their knees in the circle and he would go up and give them the tab under their tongue and then they would drink the blood and supposed to help with your shaman experience that doesn't sound like an ancient pagan ritual to drop an acid it's 2019 at that updated version yeah and no peyote needed, just a little tab.

Yeah.

We go around.

Not everybody does the acid.

Of course, I didn't.

But when the glass got to me to drink the blood, by that time, it was coagulating, man.

It was just clots of chunky yolk looking.

I was like, man, I do not want to drink that.

No.

And I think I got the confirmation from Pestilence, but I just took my finger,

dumped it down in the blood, pulled it out, stuck it in my mouth and sucked all the blood off. Oh my God.
And then they threw all the guts out into the creek and chopped the head of the gar off. We carried the head around for the next four days.
Four days? Didn't it start to smell? Oh yeah, three or four days, yeah. So that was Halloween, that was Thursday, so Friday, Saturday, Sunday, yeah.
And then when we all left out Sunday, Luke ended up cleaning the skull. And it ended up being, I mean, he had a picture of it.
It's out there somewhere. I think Vice posted it, but it's a picture.
It's the ram skull. It's got some runes on it, but it's also got like swastikas and supremacist symbols on it.
And to one side of the goat's head is Mayankamp, Hitler's book. To the other side is the siege book from James Mason.
Again, you get a parent that says, I thought it was a phase. I thought he was going through a phase.
Really a phase? Man coming out here training all the time, wearing flecked arms. You've heard all the supremacy talk.
You've heard the hate speech. That in your son's room.
Come on, man. See something, say something.
See something, say something. Yeah.
Parents need to be on the lookout for this stuff. I remember a long time ago when I lived in Serbia and I remember my boss, she said, Hey, I need your advice on something.
I found this pamphlet in my kid's room. He was probably like 12, 13.
And it was some sort of Nazi propaganda thing. And she's like, what do I do? Because she's the type who would just like yell and she's tough.
She was a guerrilla fighter and stuff. So she's like, I feel like I should ask your opinion.
I said, ask him where he got it because this seems like the kind of thing that got handed to him, not that he sought out. And it turned out that some kids had given it to him and she was like, okay, I got to report this to the school because these kids are handing out Nazi propaganda in Serbia.
But she said, I really appreciate this because if I had yelled at him, knowing him, he was also stubborn. He was just like her.
He would have dug in his heels and been like, my mom hates it. Maybe I need to go and find out more about all this stuff.
So it's strange how you got to handle some of this stuff. You really do have to pay attention to it, right? Because the idea is to find that disaffected youth and infect their brains with this crap and then get them in a group.
Yes. There are groups that I've infiltrated and five months of spewing hate, thousands of posts every day.
We met together, shot a few weapons, but they weren't going to go out and do anything. And that's in America, that's First Amendment protected.
But in the base, we uncovered several murder plots. And they were wanting to kick off the Boogaloo.
And there were going to be possible murders in the Virginia area, murders in the Georgia area. Members of the base and my cell and around the Baltimore stuff, they were already looking at land in the Appalachian Mountains to create their own ethno state the north mid region was already looking at the upper peninsula of Michigan and had some land that they were looking at to create an ethno state owned a pretty significant amount of property in the pacific northwest they were looking at doing an ethno state there so yeah man but again if you get to the point to where you are going to be committing crimes and hurting innocent people, we got to step in and stop.
I wish we could just stop the hate altogether. But what do you do? Yeah, you did put in plenty of time going after these folks, and I think we're all better off for it.
Scott Payne, thank you very much for coming back, man. This is always so fascinating.
I really appreciate you coming on. And you have a good sense of humor about all this.
Again, I think that's probably part of what keeps you sane when you got goat head blood or whatever all over you. Again, Scott Payne, thank you so much for coming back on the show, man.
Thank you, buddy. Here's a preview of my conversation with one of Al Qaeda's most respected bomb and poison makers who swore allegiance to Osama bin Laden himself.
Here's a quick listen. Just until a year ago, I used to see them as sweet, tender, decent, good people.
Suddenly, it basically became people who would use chainsaws to dismember these people alive. How could one year in Bosnia, one year of ugly conflict, turn these wonderful souls into ugly, bloodthirsty individuals? When I went to sleep that night, all I could think about was, how could I unsee what I've seen? None other than the mastermind of 9-11, Khaled Sheikh Mohammed.
He said to us, you should go to Afghanistan, where the training camps are reopening, to become good at bomb making, to become good at urban warfare, to become good at assassinations, at kidnapping, a new kind of war that will never be fought in the mountains anymore, but it will be fought in every urban center from the pole to the pole. Suddenly, you know, I thought that the nature of the war is changing from, you know, fighting in the mountains of Bosnia.
I mean, basically we are talking about gassing people in cinemas and nightclubs and trains. Of course that was unsettling, but I thought this is just the ranting of one insane individual.
Al-Qaeda carried out its first serious attack against American interests. Everyone was jubilant in the camps.
They were firing bullets into the air, you know, in celebration and shouting Allahu Akbar. We are no longer just a bunch of freedom fighters.
We are now bona fide terrorists. To hear why and how Eamon Dean eventually switched sides from being a jihadi to spending eight years as an MI6 spy trying to take al-Qaeda down from the inside, check out episode 383 on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
the other side doesn't engage in violence. All these people get so mad at the left does it too.
Yeah, there's just a lot more from these white nationalists that we need to start paying attention to. What's so ironic to me, and I mentioned this a little bit during the show, these guys are angry because they feel that white men are being marginalized.
So they want an ethnic state full of white men. Okay, just let's leave aside the ridiculousness of a lot of these claims.
What these geniuses don't realize is that then these guys would once again be at the bottom rung of any white ethnostate. They would continue to be marginalized because they're virtually useless in society.
They're uneducated. They're dumb.
They're, by the descriptions of the book, certainly not in very good shape, inbred kind of weirdos physically, mentally. These guys are the dregs of society.
Any society of any color or colors is not going to put these guys at the top. So it's all just a LARPing fantasy based on violence.
It's really pathetic in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make it any less dangerous. The book is available now, Codename Pale Horse.
You'll find all the links to Scott here in the show notes on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.
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