1232: Open Relationship Deal Makes You the 3rd Wheel | Feedback Friday

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Speaker 1 Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.
As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer the shameless Bert to my reluctant Ernie, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Speaker 3 Am I Bert or are you Bert? I always get them confused. I don't know which one is which.

Speaker 1 Bert's taller. He's a Unibrow.
I've seen your middle school yearbook photos.

Speaker 3 Oh,

Speaker 3 sick burn.

Speaker 3 But you're not wrong. Okay, so Bert is more serious, right? And Ernie just wants to joke around and take bubble baths.
Actually, that does sound like...

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, he's like, rubber ducky, you're the one. You know that song?

Speaker 1 Oh, no, you don't know that song?

Speaker 3 I don't. I mean, I vaguely remember.

Speaker 1 I'm famously a rubber ducky guy as well.

Speaker 3 We're going to have to explain this for people because I think everyone's like, what are they talking about?

Speaker 1 Right. Okay.
That's a good point. Maybe

Speaker 1 we'll get to that in a moment here. In a minute.

Speaker 1 On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Speaker 1 Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

Speaker 1 During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, Fortune 500 CEOs, rocket scientists, astronauts, former jihadis. This week, we had the amazing Oz Perlman.

Speaker 1 He is really something.

Speaker 1 I went to college with him, and he was in a magic, and now he's a mentalist that can do absolutely insane things that I don't understand, that really do seem like magic, that are just incredible.

Speaker 1 It's cool to see somebody that you knew in college that you used to like drink cheap beer with. really become super, super special, amazing, and talented.
It's really cool.

Speaker 1 I also sat down with Owen Hansen, Cocaine Cowboy, subject of the new documentary, The Cocaine Quarterback, I think on Amazon Prime video.

Speaker 1 Anyway, he went from being a surfer kid from Redondo Beach to becoming the leader of a multi-million dollar criminal empire, gambling, loan sharking, drug trafficking, money laundering, before the FBI took him down, and he was sentenced to two decades in prison.

Speaker 1 Absolutely wild story. We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on penis enhancement.
Not awkward to say that at all.

Speaker 1 On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and compare ourselves to ambiguously homoerotic children's mascots, apparently.

Speaker 3 We have been spending a lot of time together. It's good to see you, man.
We're doing this in person together in New York.

Speaker 1 Super fun, man. Yeah, it's been a wild week.
Where do we begin? So this all started last week. We met up in St.
Louis. You are back in North America, so congratulations, but we met up in St.

Speaker 1 Louis, as one does, to interview the actor William H. Macy about his new movie, Soul on Fire.

Speaker 3 I'm cooperating here. I came down for this.

Speaker 1 That's right. You are cooperating.
We landed at the hotel. The studio that had the movie, they put us up, which is really cool.
That's pretty unusual.

Speaker 1 And I get in and I'm like, oh, the room has one bed. That's interesting.
So I call down and I'm like, hey, I think I need a room with two beds. They're like, no, we don't have a room with two beds.

Speaker 1 I was like, oh, I need a rollaway then. And they were like, yeah, we don't do that.
And I'm like, what hotel on earth does not have rollaways, man?

Speaker 3 Hilton.

Speaker 1 And they were like, yeah, we don't do that. I would suggest getting another room.

Speaker 1 And I was like, okay, well, in order to avoid sharing a bed on a day where like we have to do a bunch of stuff together, I'll just get another room.

Speaker 1 And I was like, can you give me a price on another room? And they're like, oh, no, we're all full. And I was like, so you gave me a solution that is actually not something that you can do.

Speaker 3 Cool. Great.
Dot, dot, dot. I get into the room and we're just like, we're sharing a bed.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's like, all right, can I get extra pillows? Cause I need to make the Berlin wall between me and Gabriel.

Speaker 3 No, not really, but you know, a couple of pillows wouldn't hurt.

Speaker 3 Which at the moment I couldn't even deal with because when I get there, I look out the window and I see that the premiere of the movie is happening in the theater directly across the street from the hotel.

Speaker 3 And I call out to you, you were like in the bathroom getting ready. I'm like, dude, I'm looking at a sea of tuxedos.
Was there like a dress code?

Speaker 3 Because Jordan and I are wearing black jeans, casual jacket. He's rocking a leather jacket.
I'm wearing my, I don't know what to call it. I'm not just a professor.
I'm a cool professor jacket. Yes.

Speaker 3 And of course, my Indiana Jones at a sound bath hat. And I was like, Jordan, was there a dress code you didn't tell us about? Apparently there kind of was.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but they were like, oh, just dress in something that you would go out in or whatever. And I'm like, great.

Speaker 3 So apparently in St. Louis, St.
Louis, that means you dress up to the nines.

Speaker 1 That means tuxedo with bow tie, not nice sneakers and a camo print leather jacket with Indiana Jones over here with elbow patches.

Speaker 3 So we end up at the premiere and we're just those dudes from California, wildly underdressed in this sea of southern folk who are so kind and so forgiving of our outfits. It was ridiculous.

Speaker 1 On the plus side, when I said we've just got here, they basically ran over to us and were like, yeah, we knew you were the two guys from L.A.

Speaker 3 And we were like, oh, cool, cool.

Speaker 1 So they gave us our tickets and they're like, yeah, don't worry about it. And we're like, yeah, look, no one's going to care who's going to see this.
And they're like, time for the red carpet.

Speaker 1 So we're like, oh, crap, you want us on there? So they hold out a placard that says Jordan Harbinger. And then they're like, go stand there.

Speaker 1 And they hold out one that says Gabriel Mizrahi drawn in crayon because apparently you were a last-minute addition.

Speaker 3 And then there are definitely some incredibly awkward shutter stock photos about this somewhere. I haven't seen them.
I can't bring myself to look at this.

Speaker 1 This is in the basement of Getty Images. They're like, hey, intern, you handle these two schmos who shouldn't have even been there.

Speaker 3 We enter the theater and we hang out for a bit. There's a little party beforehand.
and then we shuffle into the theater and the premiere begins, but they don't seat us together.

Speaker 3 And afterward, it turned out we had very different experiences. Do you want to tell everyone what happened to you? Sure.

Speaker 1 So I'm sitting in basically a whole row by myself. And I realize on the other end of my row, several seats away is a woman who has been burned very badly at some point.

Speaker 1 And she looked very interesting. And a lot of people seem to know her.
So I was like, oh, cool. Like we have our own row.
Maybe her friends are going to show up.

Speaker 1 Minutes before the movie starts, a lady sits next to me and a man sits next to me on the other side of me.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, okay, if they're together, that's what I, so I was like, do you want me to move? And they were like, no, it's fine. Meanwhile, the woman's like, excuse me, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 I'm like, no, no, no worries. Do you want me to move? And the guy's like, no, no, you don't have to move.
And she's like, would you move? And I was like, yeah, sure. I'll just move over here.

Speaker 1 And he's like, he doesn't have to move. He doesn't have to move, Jill.
And she's like, yes, he said he'll move. And I'm like, okay, the movie's starting.
Like, what are you doing?

Speaker 1 You're arguing over me. This is way more annoying than me getting up for one second and sitting back down on the other side of you.
And the whole whole time, he's like, go sit with your sister.

Speaker 1 She's like, I don't want to sit with my sister. And he's like, God.

Speaker 3 How long did it take you to realize that she was hammered?

Speaker 1 One second. The first thing she said other than, would you, was sound like everything after that was just ridiculous.
And the movie begins, she's like, whoa. I'm like, okay, it's a premiere.

Speaker 1 Don't worry about it. She had a cup of wine, surprise, that she ended up putting in my crotch by mistake instead of the cup holder by air quotes mistake.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 But then it fell and spilled everywhere on the floor. Didn't get on me.
Thank God. That would have been awkward.
And then she's like, I'm sorry. And she's touching me and grabbing me the whole time.

Speaker 1 And meanwhile, John is like, I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 He's like mouthing like, I'm sorry, bro, to me.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, can you handle her? So he finally is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why don't you move? So I move to the other side of her.
Doesn't help. Doesn't help at all.

Speaker 1 So her and I basically switched seats. Every movie scene, she's like, this part is amazing.
And I'm like, cool. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

Speaker 1 And she'll be like, there's the really emotional part starts and she'll grab me and squeeze my neck or shoulder or thigh and go, they did did a buyout of the theater in Dallas.

Speaker 1 And I was like, Is this a family guy sketch? Like, what is happening right now?

Speaker 1 So, on the one side, where the woman who had all the burns was, she would sort of calmly go, Oh, I remember when this happened to me. And so, she's offering like very serious commentary to the movie.

Speaker 3 Because the movie, we should explain, is about a burn victim who had a very extraordinary life after he was in this accident.

Speaker 3 So, she's like, she's having like a very meaningful response to these scenes. And on the other side, this drunk woman is ruining the movie for you.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So, on in my right ear, I have like poignant director's cut.
In my left ear, I have, we had a buyout at the theater in Dallas.

Speaker 1 And I was just like, God, Jill, go sit with your sister for God's sake. So at the end of the movie, she gets up and runs down to wherever her sister is.

Speaker 1 And John on the other side is like, hey, I'm really sorry about that. And I was like, oh, yeah, don't worry about it.
It's not my first encounter with somebody who's had too much wine.

Speaker 1 He's like, yeah, we're friends with so-and-so. And I was like, oh, I don't know who that is.
I just came from LA as press. And he goes, you know what?

Speaker 1 Honestly, I don't really know those people either. I was like, okay, why did you choose this moment to lie to me and then just undo it when I wasn't impressed? I don't understand.

Speaker 3 So we hung out at the after party for a bit, but then Jordan and I were like, we had to prep and get a good night's sleep because we were interviewing the William H.

Speaker 3 Maisie, old Billy Macy at 7 a.m., I want to say. Yeah, it was 7 a.m.
It was so early. So we went back to the room, got some sleep.
We climbed into bed. And I turned to Jordan.

Speaker 3 I'm like, truly one of the most ridiculous moments of our friendship. Like I keep thinking it can't get more ridiculous.
And here I am, like cuddling up with my co-host. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So I took a selfie of us in bed together, together, which is again one of the most absurd artifacts that's one word for it.

Speaker 3 And I posted it to Instagram as a lot of you guys saw and I got so many responses. One of our listeners wrote me saying it's giving birth an army.

Speaker 3 Still funny. And we just died laughing.
So that's why the nickname today. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And surprisingly, got a decent night of sleep other than Gabriel's sleep talking.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry, what?

Speaker 1 You know you do that, right?

Speaker 3 Okay, so. Wait, are you punking me with no disability?

Speaker 1 I mean, it's probably like two four whatever in the middle a dead ass night and you go is it in the brain? And I was like, oh, did I miss the beginning of the question?

Speaker 3 I was like,

Speaker 3 I said, what? Is it in the brain?

Speaker 1 Is it in the brain?

Speaker 3 Did I say it like that? Yeah, like the way you were saying it.

Speaker 1 More or less, yeah. And then I was just like, hey, are you okay, man? And then you said some other mumble and then just immediately like went back down.
And I was like, oh, he's talking in the sleep.

Speaker 3 No big deal. In the brain.

Speaker 1 Is it or did it go to the brain? It was something like that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 3 I can tell you that Bert Nerni reference went to my brain. Maybe that's what I was talking about.

Speaker 1 Something. Yeah.
All right. So then we get up, but early, and we interview William H.
Macy, who's a super interesting guy. I know that a lot of people really enjoyed that episode.

Speaker 1 And frankly, it was just really personable. He's a personable dude.
He comes across as blunt, which he sort of warned us about. But I thought he was a nice guy for the hour.

Speaker 1 I remember saying, hey, sorry, it's so early. It's not that early.
And he's like, no, no, it's early. Like in his very sort of William H.
Macy kind of way. And I'm just a fun conversation.

Speaker 1 It was really nice to take a step back too. I let you do a lot of the heavy lifting in that conversation.

Speaker 3 You know what I couldn't stop thinking in my head while we were interviewing him? While I'm asking him questions, I keep hearing him go, ma'am, I answered your questions.

Speaker 3 Do you remember that from Fargo? Yes, that's right. Yeah.

Speaker 3 The cop is like closing in on him and asking him all these questions. He's getting sweatier and sweatier.
He's like, ma'am, I answered your questions. And she's like, sir, ma'am.

Speaker 3 I answered your questions.

Speaker 3 Yes. I couldn't stop saying that in my head while we were talking to him.

Speaker 3 And the other thing he said that I can't stop thinking about is he's telling a story about how somebody made him go audition for something or whatever.

Speaker 3 And he was like, so I got my jolly Lutheran ass on that plane.

Speaker 3 So now with all my friends, I keep saying, I got my jolly non-denominational ass on that plane.

Speaker 3 All my friends are using it with their religion. It's so funny.

Speaker 1 I'm definitely going to say jolly Jewish ass on that plane.

Speaker 3 Man knows how to turn a phrase. I'll give him that.

Speaker 1 Then we fly to New York City and we're in New York City, which I love this town. The energy is ridiculous.
We interviewed Ken Burns together and that's coming out soon. That guy can talk, man.

Speaker 1 He was a great guest.

Speaker 3 So good.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he was. Great guest.

Speaker 3 Living library of information, this man.

Speaker 1 And we had a listener meetup in the city as well. It wasn't something super public.

Speaker 3 Yeah. He just put out a thing on Instagram the day before, actually.

Speaker 1 Okay, gotcha. So follow Gabe on Instagram if you want to meet us up and whatever's in.

Speaker 3 So much fun.

Speaker 3 And then my favorite part of the morning was we're hanging out with our listeners and my friend Brenna, who I work with and who's a dear friend of mine, shows up and she's like, I brought you guys a gift.

Speaker 3 I saw it at the thrift shop that I was up just before I came here. And she hands us a wrapped present and Jordan unwraps it and it's a Bert and Ernie sippy cup,

Speaker 3 which we died all over again. Well played, Brenna.
And Jordan, you guys take that home. I did.

Speaker 1 It's in my, Jen was like, what is this in your luggage? And I was like, oh, I have to explain this joke to you.

Speaker 3 Great artifact. Thank you, Brenna.

Speaker 1 So far, an amazing trip. I love New York.
I plan on going at least, I think, twice a year is kind of my New York thing. thing.
I just love it. It's great when it's warm out, especially, not too hot.

Speaker 1 A lot of great people, amazing food. I just love the place.
Anyway, as always, we got some fun ones. We got some doozies.
Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Speaker 3 Dear Jordan and Gabe, my partner and I have been together for eight years, and until this past year, it was one of the best and most deeply committed relationships of my life.

Speaker 3 We opened our relationship six years ago. And I never doubted that we would remain each other's primary partners.

Speaker 3 For the past five years, we've lived together in a home we own and we've spent the majority of our time together.

Speaker 1 So one of the best and most deeply committed relationships of her life, next move, uncommit, go Polly. I don't.

Speaker 3 I wish we had more information about that. Why is that the next move?

Speaker 1 I don't know. I mean, look, I'm being kind of a pill.
It's totally fine if that's what they want. Truly, no judgment.
I know people who are like Polly and all that.

Speaker 1 I'm curious to know how they made that decision.

Speaker 3 I'm guessing she loves him. They love each other.
They know what position they play in each other's life. And they want other things, which is rather the point, I imagine.
So she goes on.

Speaker 3 Then, a year ago, he began seeing someone new who lives in another state. Let's call her Maggie.
Their relationship deepened quickly, and soon he began traveling to see her about one week per month.

Speaker 3 This is significantly more time than I spend with other partners, and while I don't feel like this time needs to be equal, I was surprised that my partner didn't communicate more openly about his plans and desires.

Speaker 3 Because he also travels for work, I suddenly found myself living alone roughly half the the time.

Speaker 3 I wanted to be supportive of their connection, but I also knew that the frequency and duration of his travel wouldn't be sustainable for me.

Speaker 3 I communicated this when he and Maggie had been seeing each other for about three months, and he seemed understanding at the time.

Speaker 3 But over the following months, his travel to see her only increased, and he became less proactive in scheduling and communicating about trips.

Speaker 1 Okay, so Gabe, once again, zero judgment here. If polyamory, open relationships, if that works for people, great.
But I feel feel like this is the story of so many poly couples.

Speaker 1 It's all fun and games. And then somebody meets somebody else they really like, and the other party gets hurt because it's got that new relationship energy.
And they're just like.

Speaker 3 Right. Although she would say, all fun and games until someone stops communicating openly.

Speaker 1 Fair, but it sounds like even if he were totally open with our friend here about his feelings and his plans, this still would have been hard for her.

Speaker 1 Like, hey, I want to see this person a lot more than you because he's spending so much time with somebody else. She's alone half the time is what she said.

Speaker 3 Tricky.

Speaker 1 Tricky.

Speaker 1 Look, I know I sound like a square here, super uncool, 2025, get with it, Jordan, but I'm just so confused about how this arrangement works in practice without eventually hurting someone's feelings.

Speaker 3 She goes on, after nine months of trying to improve our communication and understand what he wants the future of our relationship to look like, I feel exhausted and heartbroken.

Speaker 3 He's repeatedly said that he wants to keep both Maggie and me in his life, but Maggie and I have what appear to be mutually exclusive desires.

Speaker 3 My partner recently admitted that he hadn't been open with Maggie about our struggles, and that she has also been expressing a desire for more time with him.

Speaker 3 He also admitted that Maggie might not want a non-monogamous relationship in the long run, and that she isn't dating other people, but she hasn't been forthcoming about what her ideal relationship structure with my partner would be.

Speaker 3 It feels destabilizing not to know what either of them really wants.

Speaker 1 I bet, but I think I know what they want. Maggie wants your partner all to herself.
You want your partner as your primary and maybe a little freedom.

Speaker 1 And your partner wants both of you because he's dining out at ye old polyamory buffet. All you can eat, baby.

Speaker 1 And those interests are, they're not aligned.

Speaker 3 Luckily, my partner and I have a wonderful therapist who's been helping us navigate these challenges.

Speaker 3 A few weeks ago, she asked him what his ideal relationship structure is and if he even wants to operate within hierarchical non-monogamy. Okay, hierarchical non-monogamy.

Speaker 1 So like you're poly, but you have one partner who's priority. Yes.
They get most of your time and energy.

Speaker 3 Exactly.

Speaker 1 So monogamy where you are allowed to cheat. No.

Speaker 3 I'm getting it. Or polyamory where you get to feel stable.
That is how they would put it, I'm guessing.

Speaker 1 I'm messing around. I kid, but kind of, right?

Speaker 3 Kind of.

Speaker 1 There are so many remixes of polyamory. It's hard to keep track these days.
This is the dubstep remix of open relationships.

Speaker 3 Yeah. It slaps, but it makes no coherent sense.

Speaker 1 Oftentimes, yes, exactly.

Speaker 3 He's continued to say that he's not sure and that he's trying to figure it out, though he's also said he can't imagine not having me in his life.

Speaker 3 I know that I want a primary partnership with someone, and while I'm hopeful that person is him, what I want most of all is for him to act based on his true desires rather than trying to appease Maggie and me.

Speaker 1 Huh, I hear that. If that's true, and you've communicated that to him clearly, of course, then he should feel pretty damn safe to tell you what he wants.
It's probably easier said than done.

Speaker 3 I'm striving to be patient and give him some time to reflect, but his uncertainty is deeply hurtful. How long do I sit in this ambiguity? Should I take his indecision as an answer in itself?

Speaker 3 And if he does decide that he wants to be my primary partner, how can I rebuild trust in him and in Maggie if they choose to stay together?

Speaker 3 Signed a poly bird, longing to be preferred, feeling like the lines are blurred and now spurred into wondering if this is just absurd. Do I need to defer so he can continue to confer?

Speaker 3 Or should the answer be inferred when his feelings about this third might not require words?

Speaker 1 Coming in hot today, Gabe, as per ush.

Speaker 3 Bird is an easy word to rhyme, so they just want to keep going sometimes. I'm trying to explain this to you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, look, this is a tough one.

Speaker 3 There's a lot going on here.

Speaker 1 I'm a little sweaty going into this one. I feel like polyamory is the Bermuda triangle of the Deuz Cruise.
Because you just get lost in there. Yeah, you go around and around in circles.

Speaker 1 The feelings are big and they're messy and there's more than two people to worry about. So there's these complex dynamics.
Up is down, left is right. It can be very confusing.

Speaker 1 So let's see if we can cut through this a little bit. First of all, Maggie aside, polyamory aside, it is really hard to have a successful relationship without clear and honest communication.

Speaker 1 And without knowing that when your partner tells you what he wants or what he doesn't want, he really means it. He's going to follow through on that.

Speaker 1 I really feel for you on that front, but add in the multiple partners thing. And I can imagine all of these feelings get heightened.
All of this gets more complicated.

Speaker 1 Now, I don't know what's going on with your partner right now. I don't know if he knows what he wants, but he's paralyzed about making a choice.

Speaker 1 I don't know if he's genuinely confused and trying to figure it out. I don't know if he's just coasting because it's easier and he can enjoy both relationships.

Speaker 1 Candidly, I get the feeling that that's probably the case, but I can't say that for sure. We would have to hear from him to know the full story.

Speaker 1 What I think we do know is that your partner isn't being totally clear with you, probably also with himself, about what's most important to him, what he really wants.

Speaker 1 He could say, look, look, I'm sorry this hurts, but I want to be able to be with both you and Maggie. I don't want to prioritize anyone.
Or he could say, I want to prioritize her now.

Speaker 1 And that would give you the information you'd need to either adjust your needs and expectations of him or to end the relationship and find a partner who wants the hierarchical polyamory too.

Speaker 1 But he's not doing that.

Speaker 3 But in a way, is he doing that?

Speaker 3 He's saying, I don't know what I want, but if he's choosing to spend all this time with Maggie, if he's not adjusting things to meet our friend here's needs, then at a certain point i think she might have to take him at face value and go okay i guess this is what you want i don't quite know what you want but i know that you don't want to make me the priority in the way i want i agree his indecision that is an answer in itself i would say so i don't know for sure that it's the answer that he intends it could very well be it could also just be the impression that he's leaving her with by avoiding this decision But either way, that's the information that she has to work with right now.

Speaker 3 So at a certain point, it's like, that's the answer she has to accept. I would say, especially after months of this.

Speaker 1 That's what I was about to say. It's been nine months of trying to figure this out.
If it were a month or two, it might be different.

Speaker 1 I can't tell if they've been in therapy this whole time or if therapy only started more recently, but I'm with you.

Speaker 1 At a certain point, she has to decide if this relationship actually works for her when he isn't being super clear.

Speaker 1 So I can't tell you, you know, hey, give it exactly three months of ambiguity and that's it. That's up to you to decide.

Speaker 1 But if the ambiguity is not sustainable for you, which it sounds like it isn't, and I can't blame you, at a certain point, you got to make this call for yourself.

Speaker 3 It's a tough situation, though, because if he comes back to her and says, okay, I've decided I want you to be my primary partner, I'm going to give you most of my time from here on out.

Speaker 3 She's still probably going to be hurt, right? She's still going to be on edge. She might still feel destabilized, as she put it.

Speaker 3 Even if he objectively gives our friend here most of his calendar, his feelings about Maggie, I imagine, are not going to change overnight. And hers.
certainly are not.

Speaker 3 They're still very involved with each other.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't know how our friend here is supposed to rebuild trust trust in her partner and in Maggie if they choose to stay together, because the genie's out of the bottle now.

Speaker 3 And this primary partner thing, this hierarchical non-monogamy thing, I imagine it's not just about the number of hours he spends with her.

Speaker 3 It's also about the place that she occupies in his life, in his heart. It's a feeling, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, totally. And I'm not sure how that changes unless he's not as into Maggie as Maggie is into him, which does not seem to be the case.

Speaker 1 Or he's got to be willing to tell Maggie, hey, sorry, we got to cool things down. I'm going to redefine our relationship and my obligations to you.

Speaker 3 Which would mean hurting Maggie.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she's going to resist that, which is why polyamory many times boggles my mind. Just the so many people's emotions to deal with.
One person's feelings are hard enough.

Speaker 3 Jeez. I honestly don't know how she's supposed to rebuild trust in Maggie.
And what a poly question to be asking. Yes.
Again, no judgment. It's just such a fascinating concern.

Speaker 3 Like, how do I rebuild trust in the woman my partner is sleeping with? I don't fully understand actually how any poly person is supposed to trust anyone else's partners.

Speaker 3 You just have to believe that they're all subscribing to the same rules in the sense that she cannot control Maggie's feelings at the end of the day.

Speaker 3 She can't tell Maggie, this is what you can fairly expect from my partner. Here's what you can't expect from him.
Her partner can tell Maggie that, and maybe it would mean more.

Speaker 3 But even then, Maggie's going to do what Maggie's going to do, right? So this is another aspect of this arrangement that I find very tricky.

Speaker 1 Ultimately, the choice you're facing is what's more important to me? Staying with this partner I really love, but who's hurting me, or pursuing the hierarchical poly poly relationship that I want.

Speaker 1 It sounds like you know the answer to that, but actually acting on that, which I assume would mean breaking up, that is obviously going to be very painful, like any breakup, but that is the choice in front of you.

Speaker 1 I haven't been in your shoes, but if I were, I think this would be very confusing and very hurtful. And there's only so long I could really put up with that.
But everyone's different.

Speaker 1 You're going to have to make this call for yourself.

Speaker 1 The most important variable, in my view, is the quality of your relationship with your partner, the way you guys communicate about all this, the basic feeling you get from him, how much joy and how much pain this relationship is creating for you.

Speaker 1 You say that what you want most of all is for your partner to act on his true desires rather than trying to appease everyone else. I appreciate that.
I really do.

Speaker 1 But I'd also turn that around and invite you to do the same with yourself and make sure that you're also prioritizing your needs and feelings alongside your partners wherever that decision leads.

Speaker 1 And good luck. You know, we too have multiple partners, namely the amazing sponsors who support this show.

Speaker 3 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1 This episode is also sponsored by BetterHelp. World Mental Health Day was earlier this month.

Speaker 1 And in the spirit of that, I want to keep showing appreciation for all the amazing therapists out there who make a real difference, including mine. I use BetterHelp every week.

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Speaker 1 Please consider supporting those who support this show. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Speaker 1 Okay, what's next?

Speaker 3 Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I just listened to both Orion Taraban episodes.
Good stuff. Enlightening.

Speaker 3 I was ultimately saddened, though, because what he says is true, especially the part about men wanting more feminine women, needing to be needed, etc.

Speaker 3 I completely agree. It just sucks for me.

Speaker 1 Okay, so pause. Orion Taraban episodes 12, 12, and 12, 13.
We talked about a lot of topics related to dating, relationships, attraction. These are just a few of his points.

Speaker 1 I'm getting a ton of responses to that one, of course. I knew it would push some buttons, and I feel like I want to take this moment and just say a couple things about him.

Speaker 1 So first off, I think Orion made some logical and in some cases, not too controversial points. We agreed on a lot.

Speaker 1 The fact that some of what he's talking about is verboten or not PC, whatever that means, that is actually a big part of what I appreciate about the guy.

Speaker 1 I think a lot of basic truths and legitimate ideas don't get talked about because they're quote unquote inappropriate or whatever.

Speaker 1 For example, his point about how people usually end up choosing their best perceived option or how women want kindness from men that they're already attracted to, but kindness alone won't attract them or how romance and value in a relationship are two different currencies inside a relationship.

Speaker 1 Now, at the same time, though, I don't think any theorist or dating coach is going to be able to explain every single relationship out there or every single preference or every single person's journey.

Speaker 1 And that is really important to keep in mind as well. So when Orion says women want this, men want that, this is how human beings are.

Speaker 1 He's probably right about a lot of them or the general shape of human affairs. But I personally know tons of people, even in my own personality, I can see this.

Speaker 1 Orion's models are not going to be 100% true across the board. I don't think he even claimed that to be the case.
So I don't think I'm saying anything controversial here.

Speaker 1 So many people's preferences and outcomes just don't fall neatly into any theory, really. I'll I'll probably say more about this later.

Speaker 1 I just, I wanted to share that here at the top because it's been on my mind. These episodes, they're very much worth a listen.

Speaker 1 But like any guest, I don't think Orion is necessarily preaching the gospel nor claiming to do so. He's just talking about some things we probably all need to at least consider.

Speaker 3 I'm 26 years old and pretty independent. I'm a lieutenant in the U.S.
Navy, which means my job is driving warships, tracking enemy submarines, firing missiles, and leading sailors.

Speaker 3 I love the job, but it's not exactly feminine.

Speaker 3 I've worked my butt off to put myself through college, commission as an officer, build a healthy investment portfolio, buy a house, acquire two tenants, and do all my own car maintenance and home repairs.

Speaker 1 Damn, at 26? Wow.

Speaker 3 That is so impressive. Yeah.
That's insane. Well done.
But according to Orion Taraban, and I don't disagree, all of that makes me less attractive.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure I totally agree, but I understand why you're saying that.

Speaker 3 I most definitely do not need a man in the material sense, but I would like to meet someone nice and have a family eventually.

Speaker 1 So many thoughts already, but just to say, might not be traditionally feminine.

Speaker 1 I mean, launching missiles is kind of a very masculine sounding thing in the first place, but holy smokes, it's so impressive. You just sound like an absolute rock star.

Speaker 1 Any guy who isn't weirdly into the trad wife patriarchal thing or insecure, I think they would be pumped to meet a woman like this, right?

Speaker 1 Frankly, a guy should be so lucky to meet somebody who has their ish together. One of the first things Jen and I connected over was actually real estate investing strategies.

Speaker 1 And I was like, yeah, it's hot that she's actually responsible and thinking about money. That's, yeah, let's come back to this.

Speaker 3 Another thing that has always bothered me is the truism of attractiveness.

Speaker 3 I'm reasonably pretty, work out, eat healthily, and have a good skincare routine, but I've never worn makeup because I hate the hassle and impracticality.

Speaker 3 I know it would make me look better, but deciding to start wearing it feels like selling out.

Speaker 1 Hmm, interesting.

Speaker 3 I get hit on pretty consistently by enlisted sailors, which is good for confidence, but that's a non-starter due to the military's fraternization policy, which means I could get kicked out for an enlisted relationship.

Speaker 1 Damn, months at sea and you can't even have a shag with one of these guys constantly hitting on you? That's got to be frustrating. But, you know, hey, again, you're responsible.
I admire it.

Speaker 3 And finally, I'm at sea about 50% of the time with an ever-evolving schedule. So I have a really difficult time meeting new people or getting involved in clubs, stuff like that.

Speaker 3 Since a lot of my in-port time, I spend doing chores, writing fiction, which is my ultimate passion, and just resting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's an intense lifestyle.

Speaker 3 And you're writing books, your novel? She's fascinating. She goes on.
I've had relationships in the past, but it's been a while. I'm not shy and don't mind being awkward or uncomfortable.

Speaker 3 Every relationship I've had, I've made the first move. I've thought about dating apps, but am wary of them because the interaction seems so thin.

Speaker 3 I'm just frustrated at reality and feel as though I'm killing myself to be successful, but the odds and time are stacked against me in regards to romance. Do you have any advice for me?

Speaker 3 Am I being a prude? Should I sell myself out and start wearing makeup and act like I need a man when I practically don't?

Speaker 3 Should I get on dating apps and spend my limited time flirting and playing the part of a silly girl until one day I break the act to show them who I really am?

Speaker 3 That seems so fake and gross, but I don't really know what else to do. Signed, a lieutenant with a plan, who might be crowding out a man.

Speaker 1 Okay, great questions. So first of all, some good news, some bad news.
The good news is, like I said, you're an extremely impressive person, very special.

Speaker 1 Everything you've shared with us tells me that you have a lot to offer other people, including a partner.

Speaker 1 I'm still stunned that at 26, you've accomplished all this stuff and you have so much responsibility. You should be very proud of yourself.

Speaker 1 The not-so-fun news is, and I'm just going to be very blunt here. I think bright, bold, confident, high achievers like you, you probably do have it harder in the dating world, really.

Speaker 1 But maybe not for the reasons you think. I'm guessing your standards are pretty high as they should be.

Speaker 1 I'm guessing it's hard to find men, especially men around your age, who share your values and want to build a similar life.

Speaker 1 And then there are the practical challenges of your career and lifestyle, which I totally get. Those are fairly fixed for the moment until you publish your first novel anyway.

Speaker 1 But all of those are reflections of your objectively great qualities. And that's just how it is for some people.

Speaker 1 Candidly, I wouldn't advise you to be less impressive or less confident in order to attract some guy. Even if that worked somehow, I don't think it would really work.

Speaker 1 You'd probably resent the guys you dated for not being able to handle the real you, and or you'd feel super inauthentic by essentially downplaying your talents.

Speaker 1 What I'm interested in is these conflicts that you have around certain aspects of your appearance, how you participate in the dating dance, what it all means, like the makeup thing.

Speaker 1 You hate the hassle, the impracticality. I get it, but you also know it would make you look better.
And looking better is, whether we like it or not, a big part of attraction.

Speaker 1 It plays a big role in our outcomes with dating. So is that especially true for women? Unfortunately, yes.
Is that fair? Of course not. Does the fact that it's not fair change reality? Also, no.

Speaker 1 But it sounds like you have strong feelings about the economy of dating and you've built a whole worldview around them and an identity, I would say, that makes playing the game costly to you.

Speaker 3 Whereas killing it in these other areas of your life, like leadership, finances, creativity, I'm guessing those feel like more legitimate dimensions to compete on.

Speaker 1 Because they're reflections of you and your talent as opposed to something more superficial, something you can manipulate. And again, I get all this.
I really do.

Speaker 1 But I also wonder if this stance is entirely warranted because this could be one more dimension that you give yourself an advantage on, a dimension that only allows all your other dimensions to shine.

Speaker 1 Is it silly? Yeah. Is it helpful? Also, yeah.

Speaker 1 And I'm just inviting you to consider whether this position, even if you're right, is actually serving your goal of wanting wanting to find a great partner.

Speaker 1 Or let me put this another way, because I can hear a bunch of people listening right now, maybe women especially, I can hear them be like, ugh, a man telling an accomplished woman that she needs to put on makeup in order to be attractive, gross.

Speaker 1 Let me put it this way. What's the difference between voluntarily playing the game because it helps and quote unquote selling out?

Speaker 3 I think that's the question. That's the best question.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that's the question because the first is participating in something you might think is dumb and less meaningful than the other parts of your life.

Speaker 1 And the second is this deep betrayal of what sounds like a very precious and rigid philosophy.

Speaker 3 Because it's a position of hers, so it feels like selling out. But does she know what or whom she's actually selling out by doing that?

Speaker 1 Exactly. And so what I'd invite you to consider is that question Gabe just asked.
And also, does that philosophy need to be quite so rigid? Does it need to be quite so precious?

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's a really nice way to frame it, Jordan. That is what she needs to consider.

Speaker 3 And maybe her answer is, huh, okay, maybe I can participate in this stuff, even though I don't love it, because yeah, it is helpful.

Speaker 3 And maybe I can even find my own relationship with it that doesn't feel so compromising, that might even in time with the right mindset be silly and maybe even a little fun.

Speaker 3 Or maybe her answer is, nope, sorry, it'll never not feel like selling out. I'm not doing it.

Speaker 3 But then she needs to make sure that she is willing to live with the consequences of that decision, knowing that it might make dating that much harder for her.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well put. I want to be clear.
I'm not telling her she needs to be a girl's girl and wear fake eyelashes and lip gloss every day in order to find a great guy and be happy.

Speaker 1 Miss me with the straw man arguments in the inbox. But first of all, a little goes a long way, and she doesn't necessarily need to do this all the time.

Speaker 1 Second, for all we know, the right guy will be attracted to her without makeup. Most importantly, this is all for her to decide.
What I'm responding to is something more general here.

Speaker 1 And we hear this in tons of letters, which is, This is really a thing for me. And whenever something feels like a thing, there's always more going on.

Speaker 1 So maybe let's try to understand what's going on underneath all of this and what it brings up for you. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 3 I'm also kind of hearing that with the dating apps thing. She's not wrong.
Dating apps can be rough. The interactions are thin.
Apparently, they've gotten extremely bad in the last few years.

Speaker 3 And I think Orion actually talked about how they like massively distort people's perceived options.

Speaker 1 Yes. So we did a deep dive on it on the show, but the algorithms are completely skewing people's sense of what their options are and likely also preventing them from finding great partners.

Speaker 1 It's quite damaging. I really would not want to have to use those, honestly.

Speaker 3 I'm not saying she needs to get on dating apps or she'll never find someone, but she also has some fairly rigid views about how they are and what they mean and whether they're worth her time and all of that.

Speaker 3 When giving a dating app a try could turn out to be hugely helpful for her, given how little time she has to be dating.

Speaker 3 But the ideas that she has about dating apps seem to be preventing her from even giving them a go and maybe doing it in a sincere and intentional way.

Speaker 1 So look, it could be awful. It could go nowhere.
But if if she matches with one great guy when she spends half her life at sea, I'd say it's worth it. So what's more important?

Speaker 1 Clinging to her ideas or finding out if it's worthwhile?

Speaker 3 Yes, great question. I'm also interested in how much performing she thinks she needs to do here.
Like she said, should I sell myself out and act like I need a man when I practically don't?

Speaker 1 Should I play the part of a silly girl until one day I'm like, surprise, I'm super competent and powerful.

Speaker 3 Fire the missiles. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Even though that sort of fake attitude is, you know, gross to her.

Speaker 3 I don't know if that's the natural conclusion after seeing a bunch of men get intimidated or turned off by her power and success, or if she has another idea in her head about how men need to view her and what they need to feel around her in order to be attracted, which Orion might have inadvertently confirmed with some of his hot takes.

Speaker 1 I'll be honest, Gabe, I'm really torn because again, I could never tell an accomplished woman that she needs to be less accomplished in order to attract someone. I just don't believe that.

Speaker 1 But I also can't deny that Orion is probably describing a real thing thing in a lot of men, which is that they want to feel needed and they want to be providers.

Speaker 1 So this goes back to what I was saying earlier, which is she's a victim of her own success to some degree.

Speaker 1 Maybe she's weeding out a large proportion of men who aren't secure enough to be with her, but then she has to work harder and be more creative to find the ones who are or have their own equally impressive thing going on and they want to find an equal.

Speaker 1 That could be hard, but it doesn't mean she needs to fundamentally change, in my opinion. So look, are you being a prude? I don't, that was a weird word.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that one took me by surprise a little bit.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't have said that myself. I might have said that you're more of a stickler, if that's the right word.
Maybe overly principled or rigid sometimes.

Speaker 1 Those are all qualities that you probably need to succeed in the military, the Navy, by the way. But if there's some prudishness in the mix here, that's another interesting quality to look at.

Speaker 1 Zero judgment, but go ahead and look at that, just like with all the other qualities.

Speaker 3 Are you saying that she should maybe ignore the rules more and have a couple of flings out at sea?

Speaker 1 A couple maritime gangbangs. Loosen up.
No, no, no, no, not at all. Seriously, I can't condone you sleeping with your sailors if that's against the rules.

Speaker 3 Although, aren't there other officers?

Speaker 1 Can't you bang them? I got to look this. I got to chat GPT this later.

Speaker 1 This is not legal advice. So, look, if that's what you're referring to, not banging your subordinates, I'd say that's a good kind of prude.
It doesn't mean you're prude.

Speaker 1 It means you don't break the rules and risk your career. But here's really what I think we all, men and women, need to make some peace with.

Speaker 1 There are aspects of being a human being that we can't really negotiate with, even if they're tough pills to swallow.

Speaker 1 For example, I think we can all agree most women are attracted to guys who can keep them safe, who can provide for them. That includes being financially stable.

Speaker 1 That is the guy's version of wearing makeup. It doesn't mean you need to be rich and loaded to find a great woman.
It doesn't mean all women make choices this way.

Speaker 1 It's just generally true of most people, most relationships, frankly, across most cultures, right?

Speaker 1 Now, as men, We could whine and complain about this, and many of us do, especially on Reddit, but we we could talk about how rising up at work and saving money and being ambitious is selling out.

Speaker 1 And in a certain way, if you're just doing it to attract a partner, maybe it is selling out. I don't know.

Speaker 1 But that doesn't change the fact that it is also a responsible thing to do and that it can be very gratifying for its own sake. And that to some degree, that's important in the dating world.

Speaker 1 Now, you might say earning money and investing, that is way more meaningful than putting on mascara and posting well-lit gym selfies on bumble or whatever. And I agree with you, okay?

Speaker 1 But they are equivalent in that both of these things attract the opposite gender. And so if we choose not to take these things somewhat seriously, we're just holding ourselves back, really.

Speaker 1 But if you can't find your way out of this bind and it's possible that there isn't a way out of this bind, then here's an idea.

Speaker 1 Maybe the best approach is just to put all these ideas aside for a moment and give it a go. Wear makeup sometimes.
Dress up. See what happens.
See if your interactions change.

Speaker 1 See if you really feel as gross as you think. Maybe you will, but maybe you'll continue doing it anyway, or maybe you won't.
Maybe you'll realize that your thoughts on all this change.

Speaker 1 But until you try, you can go around and around and around in circles and that is not serving you either.

Speaker 1 The sense I get is that you are a catch and the right guy, and I believe these guys are out there, I really do, he's going to respond very well to all of your qualities.

Speaker 1 He's not going to need you to be different from who you are, but that's compatible with him responding to you, also being physically attractive and presenting well on that dimension.

Speaker 1 So it's, if you're killing it across the board, why not give yourself one more advantage, a potentially transformative one, and not invest too much meaning in the makeup thing, if only as an experiment to see what happens, and then just go from there.

Speaker 1 Love your discipline. Love your ambition.
I appreciate your openness to looking at this very charged dating stuff in a new way.

Speaker 3 And we're rooting for you.

Speaker 1 Good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.
Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines.
That makes our job a lot easier.

Speaker 1 If you're being harassed by a psychotic neighbor, you think your relative might be a serial killer, or your parents are financially and emotionally supporting your unfaithful absentee ex-husband, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, Friday at JordanHarbinger.com.

Speaker 1 We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

Speaker 1 By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, our newsletter, We BitWiser, it's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from Us to You, delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays.

Speaker 1 It's like a two-minute read. Great companion to the show.
Sign up at jordanharbinger.com/slash news. All right, what's next?

Speaker 3 Hello, Jordan and Gabe. After a lot of sacrifices and hard work, my husband and I bought our first home three years ago.
My biggest fear coming into property ownership was getting a bad neighbor.

Speaker 3 And guess what? That is exactly what I got. A bitter neighbor who refuses to acknowledge me, even though she's super nice to my husband.

Speaker 3 We never officially introduced ourselves, and after a couple of months of me saying hi and being ignored, I just stopped doing it. She also keeps cats, which I hate.

Speaker 3 Due to the smell of cat feces, we wanted to build a wall between our property and hers. My husband asked if she wanted to pay for half of it, and that way the wall would be shared.

Speaker 3 Thankfully, she refused, and we paid for a property surveyor to ensure that our property line was clear, and no future issues came up.

Speaker 3 We built the wall fully on our side, and it definitely improved the smell and privacy.

Speaker 3 Unfortunately, our neighbor decided that she wants to hang her towels and mats and feed her cats on top of my wall. For months now, I've been returning her stuff off my wall.

Speaker 3 Some may say, throwing them back with lots of petty energy.

Speaker 1 I was about to say, are you returning her stuff or are you passive aggressively yeeting her bed bath and beyond linens over the wall right into a steaming pile of main coon poop? Let's be real.

Speaker 3 As I write this, there's a mat hanging on my wall that I returned to her side earlier.

Speaker 3 At this point, it's obvious she knows it's me and that she's doing this to be petty. Sounds like you both might be doing this to be petty.

Speaker 3 I decided to write this because it bothers me so much that that I cannot sleep. It just looks so bad.

Speaker 3 I'm 35 and really no longer interested in being liked by anyone, but I've always been able to make connections easily, so this is throwing me.

Speaker 3 As neighbor appreciation day is coming up, should I just bake her a cake and try to mend this non-existent relationship while nicely asking her to not put things on the wall?

Speaker 3 Or should I take this as a sign to be the bigger person and stop being petty about the wall? Any Dark Jordan ideas? Go wild with the sign-off, Gabe. I live for this.
Why do you encourage him?

Speaker 1 Sign off. I'm going to the bathroom.
I'm coming back in 20 minutes.

Speaker 3 A woman at war with the cat lady next door, whom she deeply abhors.

Speaker 3 So now it's her chore to throw her linens on the floor, which, okay, might be uncalled for, but consider the eyesore, towels unaccounted for, and a daily spread of albacore on top of the wall that we paid for.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 And when she only ignores and comes back for more, my conclusion, therefore, is to give her what for and settle this score forevermore. Are we done?

Speaker 3 With an approach less evolved and a lot more hardcore. Okay.
Okay. You.

Speaker 3 All right. Do I need to build some rapport? Fair question.
And restore this relationship from the ground floor. Yeah, I'm done.

Speaker 1 Okay, I think that's a record. Jeez, I could have squeezed a nap there.

Speaker 1 Text me next time, Gabe. I'll schedule some work.
During the sign-offs, could have got inbox zero there. So, you know, I love a good nightmare neighbor story.

Speaker 1 It really lets my inner petty libel come right out and makes me feel like the most diabolical busybody on Reddit. This woman is obviously a challenging personality, probably a little nuts.

Speaker 1 I hate to play into the cat lady stereotype.

Speaker 1 Unlike you, I think cats are cool sometimes anyways, but if you have a ton of cats and the smell is so bad your neighbors are complaining and building walls to block the stench, you're probably a bit of a loony tune.

Speaker 1 She hasn't made it easy to get along with her, to have open communication. She declines to help pay for the wall.

Speaker 1 Then she feeds her cats and throws her laundry on top of it, and then she refuses to take a hint when you throw them back. So I'm pretty sure she's the main problem here.

Speaker 1 But I'm not sure you've done everything you can to have the best possible relationship with this woman. You never officially introduced yourself.
You said that's an important gesture.

Speaker 1 It can go a very long way in opening a channel with a neighbor, kicking things off. Instead of going to her and saying, hey, listen, I know you like to dry your stuff on our wall, but it's our wall.

Speaker 1 It doesn't look great. We'd really like to ask you to get a clothesline instead.
You threw her stuff back. Okay.
And she probably experienced that as aggressive because it kind of was.

Speaker 1 And after after you gave up trying to be nice to her, she was probably like, whatever, that woman's mean. So part of me is going, screw her, she's batched crazy and annoying.
Go petty, go dark.

Speaker 1 But the other more evolved part of me that I just hate is going,

Speaker 1 when you're dealing with somebody who's socially unskilled, who's a little nutty, it's wise to go out of your way to be the bigger person and carry the relationship.

Speaker 1 So in that sense, I'm afraid that bit anyway is on you.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I agree. So yeah, why not try to repair the relationship? Give it one good shot anyway.
I like your idea of baking her a cake on neighbor Appreciation Day.

Speaker 3 And I just have to say, these holidays.

Speaker 1 Also, is that a freaking thing, dude? That sounds fake as hell.

Speaker 3 These holidays are getting out of control. There's one for every thing and every person.
And I don't know why they're doing it. Who benefits? Cui bono.

Speaker 3 Is it Hallmark or is it just like Google calendar feature?

Speaker 1 Next, you're going to tell me that Podcaster Appreciation Day is made up and not real.

Speaker 3 Actually, I love that holiday. And you can honor it by sending us your dankest conundra.

Speaker 3 But I like your idea of baking her cake on that day or on any day and just saying, look, I'm really sorry that we got off on the wrong foot. That's on me.
I'm Ashley. This is my husband, Chris.

Speaker 3 We're not the biggest fans of cats. Sorry.
But we are fans of solid neighbors and we would like to be better ones. And I made you a little something I'd love to start over.
Something like that.

Speaker 3 And see how it goes. If she's cold and brushes you off, Then maybe you can go back to being distant and petty.
If she responds well, though, who knows? Maybe things will get better.

Speaker 3 And only then would I nicely make the request to not put her things on the wall.

Speaker 3 I would not do those in the same conversation because then I think it's going to feel like you're just being nice to her so you can get what you want instead of trying to build a good relationship for its own sake, which is clearly more important.

Speaker 1 I like it. But if you can't make any progress, can you hear my knuckles cracking? My Dark Jordan knuckles cracking.
This wall you built is entirely on your property. It's not a shared boundary wall.

Speaker 1 So consult a lawyer, yada, yada. You have the exclusive right to control what happens on or against it.
That means your neighbor cannot use it for storage without your permission.

Speaker 1 Your neighbor cannot keep putting items there, especially after you've asked them to stop. And that may count as civil trespass or nuisance.

Speaker 1 So you're legally allowed to remove items left on your property, but whether you can throw them out depends on how you handle this. Document everything, of course.

Speaker 1 Take videos of the wall, the items she's draping on it. get basic documentation from the surveyor of where your property line is.
Send written notice to your neighbor.

Speaker 1 You can't place things on this wall. Anything you place on the wall will be considered abandoned property and be disposed of.
Don't throw them back over the wall anymore.

Speaker 1 I also wouldn't throw them in the dumpster. Maybe you get a huge garbage bag and you just put everything in there and keep it in a corner and out of sight.

Speaker 1 And if she keeps doing this, you have a lawyer send a cease and desist letter, send it by registered mail. So she has to sign for it, make it look extra official, basically saying, knock it off.

Speaker 1 If you continue this behavior, further legal action will take place. Chat GPT could help you with this.
Or if you're feeling really enterprising, this is something that I've done in the past.

Speaker 1 You could basically have someone knock on the door, a buddy, your nephew, whatever, dress up in a suit if you want, act all official, and hand her that official looking letter on formal letterhead in a nice manila folder or whatever and say, hi, process server or whatever.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I got a letter for you, special courier, special delivery.

Speaker 1 The other thing I would do is, if you have a two-story home or part of your house that overlooks her property near the wall, get a camera, put it in your window so she can't see it.

Speaker 1 And you're going to catch her doing all sorts of stuff, putting the linens up there, putting the cat food up there so the cats poop on the wall, whatever, and who knows what else.

Speaker 1 And you're going to have video evidence of all of that.

Speaker 1 And if that happens, then you call the police, you show them the video footage, they can hopefully talk to her to get her to stop, or they just hit her with a minor trespass citation or even a vandalism citation or something along those lines.

Speaker 1 But as fun as it is to talk about, I would definitely give Gabe's diplomatic approach a try first because there's really no reason to go dark before you try light. There just isn't, man.

Speaker 1 You know, once you do the dark stuff, it's really hard to put the cat feces back in the tube or whatever the metaphor is here.

Speaker 1 You don't want to feel guilty or regretful that you didn't try things the decent way first. The escalation, it's really hard to go back from that.

Speaker 1 And when you're dealing with somebody unstable who maybe has nothing to lose but some cat poop, I don't really want to dare that person to be worse than they are. Neighbors are tricky, man.

Speaker 1 This one sounds particularly difficult, but there are ways to make difficult people easier. Good luck.
And now we're going to yeet something over the wall at you.

Speaker 1 Deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

Speaker 3 We'll be right back.

Speaker 1 This episode is sponsored in part by Cygnos. I'm always looking for ways to optimize things.
My time, my routines, my health.

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Speaker 1 This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and NVIDIA. Picture this.
You're at a sold-out game in the stadium in the future. No lines, no tickets, no cash.
Your face gets you in. It buys your beer.

Speaker 1 It even finds your seat. That's how I roll.
I never carry a wallet anyway. That's how episode 10 of the cybersecurity tapes kicks off.
It's called Instant Replay.

Speaker 1 Everything's running smoothly until one security guard notices something off. A woman scans in for a drink, but the system says she's a 34-year-old dude named Roderick Vasquez.

Speaker 1 Okay, that's when it all starts to unravel. People start getting into VIP suites they didn't pay for.
The game clock doesn't match the one on TV. The owners freaking out live on camera.

Speaker 1 And then they realize the stadium has been hacked. Nobody knows who's behind behind it or how deep it goes.
It's creepy because it feels way too real. This isn't some far-future sci-fi thing.

Speaker 1 This could happen today. Episode 10 of the Cybersecurity Tapes Instant Replay is out now and it'll have you side-eyeing every smart gadget you own.

Speaker 1 Once things start going wrong in that stadium, you won't be able to stop listening. Check out the cybersecurity tapes wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1 If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

Speaker 1 All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the website, jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

Speaker 1 If that doesn't work, email us, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. We'd love to dig up a code for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show.

Speaker 1 And now it's time for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to Litvilla.
My recommendation of the week, get a high-quality flashlight, maybe even two or three.

Speaker 1 I'm not talking about the $8 ones on Amazon. Get a really good one, one that lasts a long time, that is super bright, that is energy efficient, uses LEDs, rechargeable.

Speaker 1 Put one in your bedroom, put one in your office, put one maybe in your kitchen, someplace in a common area. Everybody knows where it is.
Set a reminder every month, charge the battery.

Speaker 1 Power outages are going to happen more and more, especially because of winter storms, super hot summers, electric cars on the grid.

Speaker 1 If the lights go out at night, looking for a flashlight using a candle only to find one with dead batteries that's a child's toy, you're just going to be so annoyed. We had a power failure recently.

Speaker 1 Every single flashlight in the house was dead because the kids turn them on. They never turn them off.
Most of them are toys. They're things my dad's had since the 80s that are garbage.

Speaker 1 The only working light in the whole house was my two emergency flashlights. And everyone's like, oh, thank God you have two super bright adjustable flashlights that last for 13 hours.

Speaker 1 Ideally, these are going to be chargeable by USB USB because when the power's out and if they run out or something, you can use a power bank to recharge those lights.

Speaker 1 So I guess bonus recommendation of the week, I already said this on an earlier episode a few months ago, but get a couple of high capacity power banks for the house. That's a game changer.

Speaker 1 I've got an emergency power supply for my computer so I can do the show if the power goes out, but that can charge a phone like a gazillion times. You can also use your laptop to recharge things.

Speaker 1 You're just running down your laptop at that point. We're going to link to a good flashlight brand in the show notes.
Also, in case you didn't know, there's there's a subreddit for the show.

Speaker 1 If you want to complain about flashlights to me or to other listeners, discuss episodes, make fun of me or Gabe.

Speaker 1 I prefer when you make fun of Gabe, but we're both there prostrating ourselves for your entertainment. That's on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.
Okay, what's next?

Speaker 3 Dear Jordan and Gabe, my partner and I are in our mid-30s and welcoming our first baby later this year.

Speaker 1 Hey, congratulations.

Speaker 3 Both of us bring experience in early childcare and teaching across a wide age range. We've made a conscious decision to avoid giving our child a smartphone or access to one.

Speaker 3 A lot of this informed by the work of your guest, Jonathan Height. That was episode 990, by the way.
He advocates for moving from a phone-based childhood to a play-based childhood.

Speaker 3 The trouble is, my siblings already have children between three and eight years old, and their approach towards technology is completely different.

Speaker 3 When out in public, my siblings resort to using their phone as their virtual babysitter.

Speaker 3 Not only that, they hand their devices to their children and put on a TV show or a game at a ridiculously loud volume.

Speaker 1 Annoying as hell. Gabe's about to lose it.
This is his pet peeve.

Speaker 3 Having children?

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Populating the earth.
Annoying. No, I mean the loud TV show or the game on speaker in public.
It's not even just kids. Adults do this.
It drives me up the wall, too.

Speaker 3 I'm embarrassed to say that when out in public with them, I'm that annoyingly loud and inconsiderate table. You want to throw breadsticks at them.

Speaker 1 Hilarious. So you're guilty by association.
But just to be clear, we'd never throw breadsticks at your family.

Speaker 3 No, we'd go straight for the salt shake. Exactly.
Stop with a little more heft.

Speaker 1 You got to send a message.

Speaker 3 I've tried suggesting that they bring headphones and am told that this can be a challenge for busy parents and that when I have children, I'll understand and we'll be doing the same thing.

Speaker 1 Negatory.

Speaker 3 Frankly, I think this is simply a result of poor planning and lazy parenting. I can tell you now, I won't be resorting to tech.
for my child. This is the hill I've chosen to die on, damn it.

Speaker 1 Hey, dude, I respect it. You and Steve Jobs, ironically enough.
You're a better man than me.

Speaker 3 I want to get ahead of this now before things turn awkward. I have visions of my sister shoving YouTube kids in my child's face or allowing him to sit next to my nephew who is allowed a phone.

Speaker 3 How do I handle sharing my concerns about phone use and general irritation with noisy phones when eating out with my family and their children?

Speaker 3 When our child is old enough to be lured by the appeal of a phone, How do we deal with family members waving this distraction in front of our boy?

Speaker 3 Do I lay down a firm boundary or do I simply accept that grandma's going to be letting my son watch Peppa Pig episodes on a loop when she babysits?

Speaker 3 How do I deal with the fallout at the restaurant when I say no and my siblings say yes? How do I explain this disparity in parenting styles to my child without casting judgment on my sibling?

Speaker 1 That sounds like the hardest part of all this, actually.

Speaker 3 And for your wider audience, how should exasperated people in public places deal with this dilemma?

Speaker 1 That's right. Pepper Grinder works too, maybe even better.
It's the big wooden ones, kind of like a German hand grenade.

Speaker 3 How do we get the balance right of parents being allowed to cut loose while remaining considerate of other people in restaurants?

Speaker 3 Signed, ready to fight like hell to keep my child IRL, but looking to quell the yells and hopefully not repel my family who will not take this well.

Speaker 1 Okay, so full disclosure. I let Jaden and Judy play with their iPads in restaurants.
I'm that parent, which makes me like a lot of parents.

Speaker 1 But in my defense, I'm pretty sure we're not that family in the restaurant dinging and chiming and ruining everyone else's meal because we keep it at a reasonable volume.

Speaker 1 We also pack headphones for the kids, which by the way, not a challenge for busy parents. You pack wet wipes, you pack hats, you got spare underwear, spare shirts, extra sweatshirt.

Speaker 1 Every parent I know has a bag of stuff in the trunk. You can throw a couple pairs of earbuds in there.
I'm sorry to say no shade on your siblings. Well, actually, medium shade on your siblings.

Speaker 1 The fact that they're like, yeah, it's too much work to pack headphones. Everyone has to just deal with our kids' noise.
I am afraid that tells me that they are not just bad planners.

Speaker 1 They're just self-absorbed or at least super unself-aware. Because as a parent, the last thing I want to do is ruin the other people at a restaurant's good time and make them hate my family.

Speaker 1 So even my kids, they'll go, oh, it's too loud. Other tables can hear.
And they'll turn down the iPad on their own. And they're three and six, for God's sake.

Speaker 1 So look, that's how I dodge the proverbial salt shaker, even if I'm that guy who sometimes gives his kids iPads at the table.

Speaker 1 That said, I do admire parents who are very thoughtful about screens because obviously they take a toll on us, children and adults.

Speaker 1 And if you can keep kids away from screens, you probably open up room for them to do a lot of other things.

Speaker 1 Run around outside, play with other kids, build things, read books, stuff like that, which by the way, we are also big on with our kids.

Speaker 1 But it's hard to keep them happy when they're young and you're on a long road trip or you're sitting in a restaurant for two hours with adults. So write me in a year or two.

Speaker 1 Let me know if the no screens policy actually works all the time for every kid. I love it in theory, but every parent's going to tell you how hard it is.

Speaker 1 So before I share some thoughts, I just want to appreciate that you're touching on a very touchy topic, which is how do you deal with radically different parenting styles?

Speaker 3 Especially in the same family, huh?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's really hard.

Speaker 1 Like I said a moment ago, the trickiest part of this is going to be enforcing this no screens thing without coming across like you're judging your siblings for letting their kids watch Coco Melon or whatever, and without making your kids mad when they see their friends watching six hours of YouTube after school every day, and they're playing Minecraft at restaurants, and they got to sit there reading a book or listening to adults talk about their freaking 401ks.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but also, is that so bad? I don't know.

Speaker 1 Not in theory, but I can tell you that Jaden has zero interest in me and our friends' retirement portfolios.

Speaker 3 No, of course, but there are great books for kids at every age, and pretty soon he's going to want to start talking to adults too, right?

Speaker 1 At the dinner table? He does talk to adults, but he also wants to get engaged in like a Mark Rober engineering video while he he eats because he doesn't want to talk. He's eating.
For sure.

Speaker 1 Again, try taking your six-year-old and three-year-old to lunch. Tell me how you keep them well-behaved.

Speaker 1 You don't always have to put an iPad in front of them sometimes, especially when your son, like if your son's wired like you and he needs to get into something or run around or he goes out of his mind, that's what Jaden's like.

Speaker 1 I mean, just getting him to sit still is tough. So look, if you want to make this no screens policy a thing in your family, you're just going to have to get comfortable enforcing it.

Speaker 1 That is going to mean being the sheriff a lot of the time, both with your kids when they want to watch a movie or a YouTube show and with your family when they want to stick an iPad in your kid's face because otherwise they actually have to pay attention and do some real interacting with your kid when they babysit.

Speaker 1 That's going to be awkward sometimes, maybe a lot of the time. So if you stick to this, you just got to get used to those reactions.
And obviously, I would be very thoughtful about how you handle it.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't be like, no, buddy, you can't watch Peppa Pig at lunch, take out your book or talk to us, and then shoot a knowing look at your brother who's sitting next to his kids who are wired it.

Speaker 1 I think your stance really needs to be, you do you, they do them. Both options are legit.

Speaker 3 I agree with that. I also wonder if there's a good conversation for them to have about this in advance of the baby.

Speaker 3 Because yes, this is hard, but also the research does seem to be on our friend here's side from what I know. And I think Jonathan Haidt makes some really important points in his work.

Speaker 3 We know that this tech does a number on kids' brains. We know that it affects their attention spans, their tastes, their interests.
And once you add social media into the mix, it's a disaster.

Speaker 1 Social media at a young age is just a hard no. That's a separate problem from just having a screen in front of you and watching educational content or whatever.

Speaker 3 So what if he went to his siblings and said, hey, we've been thinking a lot about screen time as we get ready for the baby.

Speaker 3 We want to be thoughtful about how much we expose them to this stuff from a young age. I know you guys let your kids play on their iPads.

Speaker 3 You let them watch YouTube like most parents do, and we get it. But I just want to ask you, how did you guys come to that decision? How much are you thinking about this stuff?

Speaker 3 Have you been reading any good stuff on this topic? Have you read Jonathan Heights' book? Because here's what I've learned.

Speaker 3 And here are the upsides if if our kids don't spend all their time on screen.

Speaker 1 That kind of thing. Yeah.
Foam the runway for the decision a little bit.

Speaker 3 Foam the runway, but also invite his siblings respectfully to really think about this. I wouldn't say, I think your screen policy is hurting your children.

Speaker 3 Please tell me how you decided to infect your kids' brains right out of the womb. That's not going to be helpful.

Speaker 1 Tell me how you didn't think about this at all and just went with the cheapest, easiest babysitter around.

Speaker 3 Exactly, which is probably what most parents are doing.

Speaker 3 I'm sure it's going to be hard to not feel somewhat superior, given that you're probably taking the more thoughtful approach and also the harder one.

Speaker 3 But if you can just turn that part of your brain off and really be curious about your sibling's stance, I do think that'll help. Now, they might go, well, we disagree.

Speaker 3 We think screens are fine or it's just too hard to do it your way. This is how we're doing it.
End of conversation.

Speaker 3 And maybe you can get a read on whether this is a sensitive topic for them and you can prepare for that in the future.

Speaker 3 But it's also possible that they might go, huh, you know, we haven't really thought about it that deeply, to be honest. And yeah, you know what? Let me read Jonathan's book.

Speaker 3 And what have you been learning? Tell me. And maybe they engage with you on this and they decide to reduce the screen time too.

Speaker 1 It's possible. It's possible.
It is possible.

Speaker 1 But I can tell you as a parent, the likelihood of them limiting their kids' screen time at this point is pretty much zero because that would mean taking these iPads away from their kids after they've gotten used to them, which is like taking heroin away from an addict and trying to radically change their brains and interests after they've been hooked on YouTube, especially the fast-paced stuff on there.

Speaker 1 It's going to be chaos. It's not going to happen.

Speaker 3 I can't say I have super high hopes either. So here's another idea.
What if you said to your siblings, listen, I'm really excited to be having a kid. I can't wait for them to hang with their cousins.

Speaker 3 I can't wait for all of us to go out together to restaurants, have a great time. I think we all know that none of us is very present when we're on our phones and on our iPads.
So here's an idea.

Speaker 3 I'm just throwing it out there. What if when we all go out as a family, we do no screens time, no phones for the adults, no iPads for the kids.
and we just be together for that hour or two.

Speaker 3 I know that's very different from how it is now, but it could make our time together much more special. What do you think?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I like that. I do, because it makes it about the quality of their time together as opposed to who's the better parent.

Speaker 1 Also, the reality is that our friend here can't control how his siblings do things with their kids. Nobody can.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and if you try, then you're definitely oversteppy and presumptuous.

Speaker 1 But inviting everybody to be more present when you're all together, that's a nice way to model the no screens thing without imposing your beliefs on them.

Speaker 1 Candidly, I still don't know if they'll go for it. I'm thinking about the, oh, the headphones are too much planning thing.

Speaker 1 Your siblings might be afraid to find out what their kids are like at a restaurant without Peppa Pig. So be prepared for that, but it's worth a shot.

Speaker 3 About being the loud table, though, I think you're also allowed to say to your siblings, hey guys, I'm not trying to be annoying, but I think we're being that table right now.

Speaker 3 Should we maybe turn down the iPads a little bit? I think we might be ruining other people's lunch. There's one really easy fix for that.

Speaker 1 Again, he'd be absolutely right about that, but good luck saying that and not sounding like he's saying, hey, can you guys not have the most annoying kids at this restaurant?

Speaker 3 I get it, but also, can they learn to take that feedback in? Can he learn to say that kindly? And can they learn to not take it personally when he's just trying to be respectful of everybody?

Speaker 1 Of course he can. I'm being realistic, though, about his audience.
So look, I think you're going to have to let a lot of things go and be a little flexible here.

Speaker 1 Like when you guys go out and your tables, the loud table, if your siblings aren't open to being more thoughtful about the volume, you might have to sit there and be uncomfortable and do some deep breathing and just focus on your own kid.

Speaker 1 Or when you guys go over to their house and they're watching TV, maybe you let your kid enjoy enjoy that while they're there, but back at your house, it's back to books and talking.

Speaker 1 I know that's going to be hard, but I would also encourage you to think about what other qualities you want to cultivate in your children.

Speaker 1 Openness, flexibility, the discipline to enjoy certain things at other people's houses and other things at their own house, a militant no screens policy, that will give them some real benefits, but it also has the potential to become rigid, controlling.

Speaker 1 possibly make your kids feel like they don't know how to be part of other kids lives and enjoy that too.

Speaker 1 So that's something else to consider, how to find a balance here so you can enjoy the benefits without too many downsides.

Speaker 3 You know, that's a really fair point as well. And when grandma comes over, I do think it's fair to say, here are the rules in our house.
When the cousins are together, fine, YouTube, iPad, whatever.

Speaker 3 But if it's just you and our kids alone, we like to do puzzles. We like to go to the park.
We read whatever it is. They get to decide, right? They're the parents.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Here's something you might not understand, Gabe, because you don't have kids. It's really hard to tell your 80-something year old parents to do all this stuff with your kids when they babysit.

Speaker 1 They decide. You're like, don't buy him any more stuff.
And they're like,

Speaker 1 no, we're going to, because we get one life. We're spoiling your kid.
It's not really our problem. And it's easier to watch them when they have something new that they're futzing with all day.

Speaker 3 So you're not allowed to make any special requests?

Speaker 1 Request away, homie. They get what they get.
And sometimes that's TV or a trip to Target or whatever. I hear that, I guess.

Speaker 3 The more we talk about this, the more I realize that you really do need to keep coming back to your sphere. of influence.

Speaker 3 You get to parent your child however you want, and your siblings get to parent their children however they want.

Speaker 3 You can try to influence them respectfully, and I would encourage you to be open to their opinions as well, but you can't really impose your beliefs on them or insist that you do things your way when you guys are all together.

Speaker 3 Although it's still a kind of a weird question, like why do they get to do it their way? Is it because they had kids first? It's confusing.

Speaker 3 But look, when you guys disagree, which I would not be surprised if that happens, then I would put down the need to be right. I would do that deep breathing thing Jordan just described.

Speaker 3 Maybe learn to just kind of live with these differences. What else are you supposed to do? Are you going to get in a fight about the iPad volume?

Speaker 3 Are you going to like bring bring your own salt shaker to yeet at them?

Speaker 3 You know, you're probably going to get further by modeling this for them and letting them see the benefits for themselves if they are real.

Speaker 1 Or just let your kids move between these two worlds, which is probably the best outcome in my view. One last thing, the research on screen time is more mixed than we might think.

Speaker 1 I'm actually going to be doing a skeptical Sunday about this. If kids are spending four plus hours a day on screens, that is going to take a toll on them.

Speaker 1 But reasonable screen time within a certain range, if it's balanced with other healthy activities, which is key.

Speaker 1 Probably not as bad as some anti-tech parenting experts claim. Just something else to keep in mind, because the best solution might be somewhere in between your position and your sibling's position.

Speaker 1 And the reality is, at a certain point, you won't be able to totally control how much your kids are exposed to media, and they're going to have to learn how to manage their screen time for themselves, which arguably is an even more important skill.

Speaker 1 I appreciate your thoughtfulness. You sound like you're going to be a great dad.
Congrats on the baby and good luck.

Speaker 1 Go back and check out Oz Perlman, Owen Hansen, and our skeptical Sunday on penis enhancements.

Speaker 1 If you haven't done so yet, the best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

Speaker 1 The circle of people I know, like, and trust, teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It's 100% free.
It's not gross. It's not schmoozy.

Speaker 1 And you can find it on the ThinkIFIC platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks.
Build relationships before you need them.

Speaker 1 Once again, shenanigan free at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com.

Speaker 1 Advertisers, deals, discount codes, codes, ways to support the show on the website, searchable and clickable, over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

Speaker 1 You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe is on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi.
This show is created in association with Podcast One.

Speaker 1 My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sodlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own.
I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, though.

Speaker 1 So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others.
Share the show with those you love.

Speaker 1 And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

Speaker 1 In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

Speaker 1 What happens when the only way to survive is to lie so well you forget who you really are?

Speaker 1 FBI veteran Scott Payne went undercover with one of the most dangerous biker gangs in the country and almost didn't make it out.

Speaker 9 This is the way I was trained and this is what I think. Anytime you are something that you're you're not,

Speaker 9 pretend to be something that's opposite of you for a long period of time, especially in deep cover, generally one or two things is going to happen.

Speaker 9 You're either going to slip up and they're going to catch you or you're going to become it.

Speaker 9 Because there's so many horror stories and undercovers, it sucks that the same mistakes are being made today that were being made in the 80s.

Speaker 9 You got a small department, you got somebody that's running the undercover, but that person is also the case agent who is going to get promoted if the case succeeds.

Speaker 9 I'm I'm not saying people are going to do the wrong thing. It's just a bad foundation.

Speaker 9 I guess people is kind of my business.

Speaker 9 Even as an investigator, at the end of the day, you need to be able to sit down with somebody and have a conversation with them and gather intelligence, get information.

Speaker 9 Because if all else fails and computers shut down and phones this, that's great. It's all good stuff, but it's all human intelligence and you just need to be able to talk to people.

Speaker 9 You got to be believable. And this is where a lot of people think about undercover.
And when I'm out training and speaking, I mean, I'll ask, what do you think undercover is? Some people say acting.

Speaker 9 I go, okay, what else do you think it is? Lying. Is it pretending to be something you're not?

Speaker 9 The true definition of undercover work is you're forming relationships that you're most likely going to betray.

Speaker 9 That sucks if you look at it that way, but you need to be able to figure out a way you're going to do it and rationalize it in your mind so it doesn't have an adverse impact on you.

Speaker 1 Go Inside Basement Strip Searches, A Brotherhood Built on Betrayal, and the Psychological Damage That Still Lingers on episode 1120 1120 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

Speaker 1 This episode is sponsored in part by Vital Proteins. You've probably heard of Vital Proteins.
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Speaker 1 Get 20% off by going to vitalproteins.com and entering promo code Jordan at checkout. This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast.

Speaker 1 You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation?

Speaker 1 Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation.

Speaker 1 It's called the Conspirituality Podcast.

Speaker 1 The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

Speaker 1 An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening.

Speaker 1 It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that.

Speaker 1 From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspirituality podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Speaker 1 Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.