1115: Schizophrenic Spite Dims Golden Years' Light | Feedback Friday

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Welcome to Feedback Friday.

I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer,

the soothing red fire retardant,

helping me douse the flames of these apocalyptic dumpster fires,

Gabriel Mizrahi.

Ooh, we don't use the R word anymore, bud. Ooh, my bad.
The soothing crimson fire retardant helping me douse the flames of these apocalyptic dumpster fires. That's better.
Thank you. Good catch, Gabe.
You got to keep a PC out here. I'd be canceled already if it weren't for you.
On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.
During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from former cult members and arms dealers, rocket scientists, and astronauts. This week, we had part two of my interview with Dr.
Alok Kanoja, author of How to Raise a Healthy Gamer. We discussed mental illness, confidence, dating, culture, and communication.
It's not just for gamers. It's not just about parenting gamers.
Really interesting show, as was our first round. That guy just has a ton of wisdom to share.
Smart dude and great at delivering it. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and just generally fancy ourselves the first responders of the advice world.
That's not inflated at all, is it? Not narcissistic, even in the least. All right.
Before we kick off, I want to share an exercise that I've been doing when I'm facing a big problem. And it may be a problem that I can't really wrap my mind around.
Whenever I'm dealing with something super tricky, something that bothers me, and I'm not sure why, I write down maybe a page, maybe even two pages of all the reasons I don't like it, all the different aspects of the problem, why it's such a problem in the first place, everything it's bringing up for me, all the ripple effects and implications of the situation, really anything that comes up. And I think a lot of people do this, they journal or something like that.
I usually do this on the computer, but I delete all but the two or three sentences that capture the real problem or some of my main concerns. You might end up with a couple paragraphs and then you weed those down.
Now, I know it sounds super obvious. Like I said, it's basically journaling, but there's something about having permission to go a little nuts, be neurotic and anxious and messy on the page, and then you just literally start crossing out or deleting all the superfluous noise around the problem, and you boil it down to its essence.
And once I have those two or three sentences, I might jot down a few bullet points for each that would meaningfully address the problem. And bam, I've got an action plan, I feel way less overwhelmed and freaked out by the whole thing.
And I wanted to share that with you guys. Not the most original, maybe, but it was definitely something that changed the worrying game for me.
So give it a go and see if it helps you. I have a feeling it will.
Again, this is best suited for tricky problems where you're like, I can't put my finger on why this is so bad or why this is so annoying or why this is keeping me up at night. If you fully understand a problem, I don't know how much more fully understanding it you need to do.
You got to brainstorm solutions. This is one of those best for nebulous problems, emotional type stuff, situations with a lot of moving parts.
But yeah, this one's a winner. As always, we've got some fun questions.
We've got some doozies. Let's dive in.
Gabe, what is the first their lives very difficult. At the beginning of my parents' time there, she seemed fine, if a little eccentric.
She would keep to herself, often ignoring them, but they could hear yelling at someone or something in her house at all hours of the day and night, and she could often be seen dancing and smoking pot on her front steps throughout the day. Again, weird, but harmless.
Fast forward three months to this past winter. My husband went over to my parents' place to shovel their driveway while they were out of town, and this woman came out of her house and started screaming at him that he was trespassing and going to prison.
She had met and talked to my husband a couple times before this,

so she knew he wasn't a random stranger on their property.

She continued to berate and scream at him for a good 30 to 40 minutes

about going to prison and being raped,

and then wrapped it up with some good old conspiracy theories

about the neighbors across the street, chemtrails, the government, etc.

That is so disturbing and also just irritating, man. So they have their very own Josh situation, huh, Gabe? Their very own Josh, man.
This is bringing up a lot of stuff for me. I'm so sorry this is happening.
This event seems to have unleashed her full crazy because ever since then, she's been an unrelenting source of stress and harassment for my parents. They cannot leave their house without her coming outside to yell obscenities at them, or accuse them of trying to steal her identity, or trespassing on her property.
She makes lewd comments to my 80-year-old father when he's home by himself. If she doesn't come out of the house, she bangs on her windows, screams, and blows a whistle non-stop, while they, or anyone coming to their house, is outside.
She has a blinding security light pointed right at my parents' living room window that is on day and night. My mom had to install a blackout curtain to try and block it out.
This is awful. Really? I would be losing my mind if I had a neighbor like this? Losing my mind.
And in fact, I did. And I didn't even have a light shining in my apartment.
This is horrible. They found this woman's profile on Facebook, and it's an endless stream of incomprehensible conspiracy posts about people out to get her, trying to kill her, drug her, or steal her identity.
She's also posted pictures of my parents and my brother with their addresses and comments on how they're going to prison for whatever she's accusing them of that day. Ooh, okay.
That could come in handy. It could.
We'll come back to that.

I now don't feel comfortable bringing my daughter over there in case she's exposed to this woman.

They've spoken with the other neighbors and the police, and apparently this has been an ongoing

issue for years, although the neighbors across the street said she's never gone on quite this long before. The woman they bought this house from apparently moved because of this neighbor, but nothing was mentioned to my parents before purchasing.
That sucks. Oh, that makes me upset.
Yeah, that is so uncool. Man, I mean, I guess if I were in her shoes, I'd be trying to get out of there too, but that's oof, that sucks.
The police said they couldn't do anything about it.

They've been to her residence to talk with her many times and recommended my parents

speak to the justice of the peace in their town, which they did and were told they could

do nothing either.

On the recommendation of the police and the justice of the peace, they put up security

cameras and are recording her harassment episodes each time they walk out of their home and

have been writing down dates and issues as they happen. Excellent.
Glad to hear that. That's key.
I feel terrible that my parents are now living like prisoners in their home. They used most of their retirement savings to buy this house mortgage-free and can't afford to pay capital gains and more land transfer taxes to move again less than a year later.
Not to mention that moving houses again when you're 80 is just so exhausting and unfair to them. Yeah, that sucks.
My parents just moved. It was really hard for them and hard on them, so I don't blame you.
I know exactly what you're talking about. They plan on consulting a lawyer to see what can be done through those channels.
Maybe they can sue her for harassment, but I'm not sure that will stop this woman if she's legitimately unstable. I also worry about her trying to retaliate or escalate to actual violence if they pursue legal action against her.
So far, she's never left her property and immediately goes inside her house when the police show up knowing that they can't enter her home. Unfortunately, my dad has always been a bit of a hothead, so I worry about how long he'll be able to lie low without snapping back or antagonizing her.
Also, the use of things like personal tasers or pepper spray is illegal here. What's your advice, dark or otherwise, for making their daily lives less miserable? Signed, Surviving This War with the Looney Tune next door.
It's also deeply tragic. You know, not the vibe you want around your home, especially when you're in your 70s and 80s

and you just want to enjoy life,

kick it with your grandkid.

This is so sad.

I also feel badly for this woman.

I know.

She's clearly suffering.

I think it's unconscionable that other people

just have to suck it up

and deal with a psychotic person

who's ruining their life,

especially if that person is self-medicating

and making things worse for herself and everyone else.

But I do genuinely have compassion for these folks. They're obviously unwell.
They desperately need help, and their system fails them constantly. So ideally, any interventions you guys pursue will give your parents some peace and get her the help that she needs and deserves.
Gabe, you're our resident psychotic neighbor expert. You want to take the lead here? Oh, man.
I second everything you just said. This is such a nightmare.
I have lived it. I lived it only for about six months.
I'm afraid that your parents, they've already been living with this for about three, four, five months. I think this is the kind of thing that has the potential to ruin your life to some degree.
And I am just so sorry that they are going through it. I'm afraid I don't have great news.
What I've learned about living next to people like this is it is not easy to get them help or to get them out. And I imagine that it's even harder in Canada where the laws might be even more favorable to people like this.
I'm just guessing. And also where the system might be even more overwhelmed than it is here.
Again, I'm not totally sure. I've just read a little bit about this in other ways.
But I did Google this quickly, and it looks like the Ontario Mental Health Act has pretty strict criteria for involuntary hospitalization and obtaining what's called a peace bond, which is basically a court order that requires someone to behave well and keep the peace for a period of time. That can be time consuming.
It can be stressful. Apparently, a lot of cities struggle to enforce bylaws for non-urgent things like crazy neighbors.
There are also privacy laws that prevent neighbors from knowing about someone's mental health treatment, so there are obstacles here. I think you are already figuring this out, but I'm afraid that you and your parents do have to prepare for a long road here.
But the good news is there are options here, so let's start with some practical stuff. First of all, your parents should definitely up their home security.
I'm very glad that they've put up cameras. That's a great first step.
In addition to documenting everything that's happening, which they're already doing. This is the part where I usually make a tasteless plug for SimpliSafe, but that's obviously unnecessary today and I won't do that.
I'm glad your parents are already on this, although they might want to go a little further and install a true home security system like SimpliSafe, simplisafe.com slash Jordan. Oh, there it is.
But yeah, motion sensor lights, sturdy locks and alarm on all their doors and windows just in case might put everyone at ease and help them gather more evidence. I'm not worried about this woman breaking in, but if you can get her on camera doing something, ooh, that's good.
Yeah, although she stays inside her house, she's smart. We'll say that could change.
It's only a matter of time. Talking to a lawyer is an excellent idea.
That person should be able to advise you guys on all of your options in Canada, in Ontario, what works formally, what works informally, whether a lawsuit would actually help matters or just provoke this woman further. And even though it's done nothing so far, I would keep calling the police whenever she does something egregious.
I wouldn't do it every time she says something weird, just like a minor little thing, because you'd probably be calling every day and they might stop coming out or they'll get annoyed. But when she verbally attacks your parents, like these lewd comments that she's making, which do seem beyond the pale, or she gets scary, or she creates a ton of noise late at night, something concrete, something extreme, ideally something that maybe could be criminal, definitely call the police.
So anything related to noise, disturbances, property damage, property upkeep, violations of any municipal codes, all of those are solid reasons to call the police. But the key is you then have to follow up

with the police by email with a formal written notice of what happened. And ideally that's backed

up by the documentation that you guys are gathering so that this doesn't just become a random incident

report that gets filed away or thrown away and ignored. And it needs to become a formal thing,

a formal police report. At least that's what my landlord had to do with Josh here in LA.

I'm guessing something similar happens in Canada. And if enough of these police reports build up,

Thank you. a formal police report.
At least that's what my landlord had to do with Josh here in LA. I'm guessing something similar happens in Canada.
And if enough of these police reports build up, it might make the police realize that this neighbor is a real problem and needs to be evaluated. And by the way, I know that sounds like a ton of work, but after the first report, you guys will have a template for this thing.
You can literally copy and paste, make a Google doc with this, right? Change the date, change two or three sentences about what she did at that time and you're done. Could take 10 minutes.
Adobe PDF editor finally coming in handy, right? The thing you bought a license for 13 years ago. That's what this is going to help with.
Really, when you have a stack of these and copies of your own, you're starting to build a case against this person. Now, while you do that, you also have to contact your local department of mental health or whatever it's called in your area.
And you need to do that on an ongoing basis and keep asking them to do a wellness check on this neighbor. This is not just about getting her in trouble to retaliate or to make her life more difficult.
This is about hopefully putting her in touch with the resources that she needs. I don't know if Ontario will be more or less responsive than we are here in California, but eventually someone should come out and maybe if they're not cops in uniform, your neighbor will be a little more open to talking with them.
I don't know, worth a shot. There's also something called a mobile crisis intervention team in a lot of areas.
I know it exists in Toronto. Not sure if you guys live in Toronto, but if so, this is a team made up of nurses and specially trained officers that the police can send to calls involving people with mental health issues.
So when you follow up with the police, I would literally say I'm requesting a visit from the MCIT or the MCIT. Not sure how you guys say it up there.
What your parents need to prove, I think, to the authorities, especially any mental health people, is that this woman meets the criteria for at least an assessment and possibly involuntary hospitalization under the Ontario Mental Health Act. And the main criteria are that the person is a danger to themselves or others, and that they have a recurrent mental disorder that is likely to cause serious harm if left untreated.
It's interesting, I looked into this a little more. The MHA also seems to say that if the person's condition is getting worse, if they're likely to suffer significant deterioration, then that's another criterion for involuntary hospitalization.
Oh, she said the neighbors across the street said she's never gone on quite this long before. Is that an indication? Yeah.
So that gives me some hope that she does meet that criterion. And that would be something else that your parents should document and that they have to communicate to the mental health folks that this woman is noticeably decompensating.
And honestly, everyone is worried about her and she deserves a second look. There was a comment in the subreddit today about how you expand people's vocabulary with this show.
Criterion being the singular of criteria and decompensating. people should go ahead and write that down.

We'll wait for you.

It's just the singular.

Yeah.

Is the bar getting lower?

I mean, I don't think a lot of people know that datum and data.

I would never say datum ever.

Criterion and criteria.

First of all, I've heard people say criteria.

So the bar is that low.

Yes.

Does not work for me.

Sorry.

Criterias. Just one of the criterias.

No, but it's funny.

People do that too, right?

They say like, this is a weird phenomena.

And I'm like, it's a phenomenon. Okay.
It's almost like it's a phenomenon. I've never felt like more of a pretentious a-hole than I do in this moment.
Thank you for pointing this out. You're welcome.
Definitely not in my head about it. You also have the option, and this is something I'd talk to the lawyer about, you have the option of getting a restraining order or a peace bond order.
Now, is this lady gonna honor that? Probably not, but the benefit is, if she harasses your parents after they get one of these, they get to call the police and say, we have a restraining order or a peace bond against this woman. She just verbally attacked us on our way into the house.
She's shining a light through our window. She's banging on our door, whatever it is, and that'll A, probably make them come out to the house sooner.
And B, if she's in violation of these court orders, they might be able to arrest her right then and there, especially if it's all on camera. The problem there is she'll probably be out in a day or two and then she'll be back home and then she's going to be really pissed.
But she's going to be pissed at like the CIA that's coming after her. But she might know that they called.
I don't know. She might.
But you know what? That's the calculation. My hope is that if the cops arrest her for violating a court order, they'll see how sick she is.
They'll take her to the psych ward. So it's a gamble, but it could work out even if you have to have her arrested a few times.
I think you guys might also have something with the Facebook posts. We talked about this when we were reading the letter, because that does sound like it rises to the level of defamation and or online harassment.
There are laws about that. I had the same thought.
She's posting pictures of your family, their addresses, vaguely threatening comments. That is crucial to document as well.
And I talked to the lawyer about how to file a formal complaint with the police about that specifically. And I'd ask them how to make the best possible case that it violates the letter of the harassment laws in Canada so the cops take it seriously.
Also, gonna dip my toe in the dark Jordan waters here. This is ethically dicey, okay, which is every dark Jordan pitch, but you guys might be able to sue her for defamation, and she might not be able to mount a defense in her condition.
Now, somebody like this, they're probably judgment-proof, aka they have no money to pay you, but if your parents win a case against her and she doesn't pay up and she defaults or doesn't show up to court or shows up and starts talking about the CIA or the NSA spying on her, maybe they get a lien against her home and dot, dot, dot, failing to pay a debt on a lien could lead to a forced sale of her home to satisfy the lien. Now, that's a messy and complicated process.
And it is cruel because you're throwing a woman out of her home when she can't defend herself. But look, it's an option, at least here in the States.
Not sure about Canada. Again, I can't say I endorse this, but it is an option.
This woman is terrorizing your whole neighborhood. That is dark, but it is an idea, isn't it? Something for you guys to consider.
Finally, there is something called Victim Services Ontario. They offer legal guidance.
They offer emotional support. I would give them a call and see what they say about all of this.
They might have more insight or resources to share with you. So those are the main strategies available to your parents right now, as far as I know, and they have to work all of them at the same time over and over again until some combination works or this neighbor gets bad enough for them to be there at the right moment to intervene.
But in the meantime, just having gone through this myself, I'll share a few things that might help your parents cope with the situation, hopefully get through this without losing their minds. So first of all, people experiencing psychosis, especially schizophrenic people, the vast majority of them are not physically dangerous.
And when they are dangerous, they're usually dangerous to themselves. I realize that's cold comfort, but it might help you sleep a little bit better at night.
The second thing is, let's just take a moment to remember something that is very easy to forget when a crazy person is targeting you, which is this woman is in trouble. She's in a lot of pain.
And like Jordan said, she really needs help. Now, whether she accepts that help, whether it actually makes her better, that is unclear.
Even if you somehow succeeded in getting her hospitalized, she could be back in her house in a few days or in a few weeks. She could go off her medication and things could be back to where they are.
They could be worse. There's so much you cannot control here.
And that is what is so frustrating about these situations. When I went through this with Josh, I was constantly ping ponging between rage and empathy.
And that was really hard when he was banging on my wall and yelling outside my window and keeping me up at night and no one could do anything about it. It's really hard to feel for somebody when they're driving you insane.
But you have to remember that this person is deeply unwell. And as horrible as this is for your parents, it's probably much worse for her, right? Because her reality is a 24-7 paranoid, delusional shitshow where people are targeting her nonstop, which is just so sad.
I mean, making room for that empathy, and trust me, again, I know how hard it is to feel compassion for somebody who's keeping you up at night and making your life a living hell. So I get it.
But if you and your parents can stay connected to your kindness here, even a little bit, it really does help cope with the crazy. I hear that.
I also think it might motivate you guys to keep calling the authorities because this woman is suffering. Yeah.
It's so interesting. It's like, do you want her out because she's driving you mad or do you want to get her help because she's sick? Both.
But beyond that, noise canceling headphones, earplugs, white noise machines, eye masks, you got to get these. I would make sure that your parents have all of that stuff so they can at least get some sleep at night.
To be clear for when they go to sleep, they definitely shouldn't be wearing earplugs when they walk from their car to the front door. Honestly, their situational awareness needs to be high when they're outside because who knows what this woman is going to do.
And you did mention that your dad is a little bit of a hothead and he's also probably his patience is being tested. He's at his wits end.
So if your parents have to interact with her, I would really encourage them to be as neutral as possible. Be very gentle.
Do not provoke her. Do not fight back.
It's tempting to do that, but you can't do that. You are not going to get anywhere that way.
I would just beeline from the car to the door, get inside, say as little as possible, ideally nothing, and just stay as far away from her as possible. Your parents might also want to change their routine to minimize contact if that's an option.
Like, can they walk a different route to the door? Can you go out the back and walk around this other side of the house? Can you leave at times when she's not watching? Stuff like that. And I hate that I'm recommending this because this woman is just making everybody crazier.
It sucks that they have to adapt, but they have to adapt because they can. By the way, side note about the woman who sold your parents the house.
So I looked into this a little bit and it seems that in Ontario, sellers are generally not legally required to disclose a crazy neighbor if there is one, but there are certain circumstances where they have to disclose. And apparently those circumstances are if the neighbor's behavior has resulted in repeated police interventions, which sounds like is exactly what happened because you said both the neighbors and the cops have said that this has been an ongoing issue for years, or they have to disclose if a neighbor has created threats or disturbances that could impact the buyer's enjoyment or safety of the property, which is clearly what's happening here, that could be considered what's called a material fact affecting the property's value or desirability.
Anything, anything that makes the property uninhabitable or dangerous. The other reason that sellers in Ontario have to disclose is if a property is stigmatized due to past crimes, disturbances, or, and this is crucial, ongoing harassment.
And that seems to include, and this is also really important, nearby neighbors with troubling behavior. So I wonder whether your parents might also have a case against the previous owner here.
I had the same thought. I'm generally not a fan of litigation unless absolutely necessary.
But in this case, yeah, it's kind of warranted because the previous owner did something pretty damn unethical in not disclosing this neighbor. And I kind of want her to pay for that.
Yeah, I do too. But I'm also very torn about this because I also feel for that woman.
I know. It's like, what would I do? Well, I'm just not going to say anything and pray that she doesn't pop off when I have an open house.
She was dealing with the exact same thing. She just wanted to get out.
And if the law doesn't explicitly compel her to disclose, maybe she was just doing what she had to do, you know? It's like she might've called a lawyer and been like, so do I have to say anything? And the lawyer's like, well, in theory, yes, but only if yada, yada, yada. And she's, I'm rolling the dice.
I can't take it anymore. It sucks to think that one person should just have to suffer or eat the cost on a house because the cops won't do anything about the loony tune next door that's flashing her neighbor, screaming and smoking pot and yelling at your 80 year old dad.
But how can you in good conscience sell a house next to a psychotic person to a couple of nice people in their 80s? That does not seem right to me. You want a buyer who's like 30, like five dudes, right? Who are just like, ah, yeah, there's a crazy lady next door, but who cares? Turn the music up.
And the price of the house should be discounted, really, to account for the fact that there's a crazy person next door. If it wasn't, in my view, those are the damages that you sue for.
Like, hey, my enjoyment's been limited. I need 30 grand.
The psychotic discount? Yes. The schizophrenic factor? Interesting.
Look, I guess we could argue both sides of this till the cows come home. That's a tough one.
We could. It's an interesting ethical dilemma.
But here's my Dark Jordan fantasy. Your parents sue the previous owner.
They get some damages or they get a settlement, even if it's a small one. They use that money to move to a new house to cover the capital gains and land transfer taxes, again, with the money that they got from the settlement.
Unfortunately, that could take a year or two, could be longer, but it is a possibility. And sadly, it might be the only way to get some peace here.
It's just another thing I'd talk to a lawyer about. But then they would have to decide whether to disclose this to the next buyer.
Man, now I'm feeling for the previous owner because I'm fully on our friend's side here. I just want her parents to ditch this house and live in peace.
So I really can relate. It would be funny if they didn't disclose the neighbor.
They sold the house. They get sued in a couple of years by the next owners and the cycle just keeps happening until this other neighbor dies.
Just musical lawsuits for the next 30 years. Pretty sure this is the plot of 80% of horror movies involving a family in a house.
There's always that scene where they start investigating and realize the previous owners dealt with the same thing and no one told them like, oh yeah, we left because of all the people that come out of the closet at night. Ethan Hawke is in that movie.
Yes. Well, mandatory.
Yeah. So unfortunately, what I learned from the Jaws situation, as you probably know, is that the system is very flawed, very limited.
It's overwhelmed. It has a ton of cracks and people like this woman easily fall through them.
The sad reality is that people often need to be a lot better or they need to be a lot worse for a situation to improve. A lot of mentally ill people fall in this middle ground where they can take care of themselves and they're not a true danger to other people.
And so the cops really can't do anything. But then the people who live around them are forced to suffer, which again, we keep coming back to, it's just terrible.
It's so annoying. It's more than annoying.
It's maddening, but this is the world that we live in. So I'm hoping, I'm praying that this woman either makes a mistake or crosses a line that gives the police or the mental health people a reason to get her evaluated, or something changes.
Maybe she moves away on her own. Maybe she goes through a period where her psychosis calms down a little bit.
Maybe she dies, unlikely to happen soon, but you never know. And maybe things miraculously get better on their own.
But this is a situation where you and your parents are going to have to work every angle hard and give the authorities as much ammunition as possible to intervene, which includes all of their documentation, their camera footage, picking up the phone and calling, writing these reports, all of it. And they just have to take good care of themselves along the way.
That's it. But I also think you guys need to be creative here and stay open to all the possibilities because there might be a world where your

parents need to sell the house and move as stressful and as exhausting as that is. Or maybe

they spend a couple nights a week at your house. That way they can get some peace and quiet,

enjoy some quality time with your daughter. And if you aren't willing to at least consider those

solutions, they might stay stuck in a disturbing situation. You could also Airbnb the house, rent out to somebody else.
Your ratings are going to take real quick. Yeah, yeah.
You might end up with a couple ones. You might get away with it for a month.
I can just picture the listing like great view of the topless 60 year old lady dancing on her porch next door while yelling obscenities at my five year old daughter. Exactly.
Nots coming back. Loved the pool.
Didn't love the prison spotlight coming into the bedroom at 3 a.m. Friendly neighbor talked about the CIA's mind control experiments for six hours in the driveway.
That's one of those Airbnbs that's like, why is it $45 a night for a seven bedroom house in Ontario? Yeah. Like, what's wrong with this place? It must have a leaky roof.
Oh no, it's much worse than that. Anyway, look, it's not fair whatsoever, but it is what's happening.
And again, I'm so deeply sorry this is happening to you guys. Watching Gabe go through this, it gave me so much compassion for anyone living next to a seriously mentally ill person.
Gabe, you were kind of a zombie for six months or whatever it was, and you're only 80 years old in your soul. So I can't even imagine what the writer's poor parents must be going through right now.
I feel so bad for them. Yeah, I really hope you guys catch a break soon.
Sending you and your family a huge hug and wishing you all the best. You know what else is batshit crazy? The psycho deals and the fine products and services that support this show.
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Okay, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

I'm a junior in high school and involved in the choir program. Last year, I got into a highly selective and competitive a cappella choir that travels and competes at state and national competitions.
Outside of that, I'm a competitive gymnast and cross-country runner. There are 12 of us in this choir, and we're all heavily involved in other school activities.
I was incredibly excited when the directors let me in and worked with my schedule so I could fully commit to the group. Jeez, overachiever much? You sound like a rock star.
Congrats. Yeah, I just do triple backflips after running 12 miles a day, then singing acapella mashups of Neil Diamond and Flo Rida.
It's always that, isn't it? It's always like a classic from the 70s and then the early 2000s banger. Yeah, this kid already got into Stanford.
Literally. Yeah.
His resume is making me feel so lazy. Seriously.
Over the course of the next year, we performed well and had a lot of fun as a group. Then one of the directors left and the school didn't replace him, leaving us with one teacher.
This year, things have gotten strange. This woman, our teacher, encouraged one of my friends in the group to start dating another girl in the group when she knew he was already dating someone from another school.
Okay. She also approached that friend, one other boy in the group, and me, and talked poorly about one other member in our group.
This is weird and inappropriate. One girl left the.
So this teacher she's overstepping, it sounds like. There need to be better boundaries here.
Just wait. Then, one day, she invited me and my two best friends in the group, who are both swimmers, over to her house to get measured for some new performance outfits.
I don't like where this is going. She asked us to take off our shirts, which was somewhat uncomfortable for all of us, especially because when I've gotten measured for a uniform in gymnastics, I haven't needed to take off my shirt before.
My friends and I are all religious, and that crossed a line for all of us. It was a wake-up call.
Hold up. You are really digging that hold up soundbite these days, aren't you? You've been hitting that button again it is feedback friday it is i think maybe we should rename the show hold up with jordan and carpenter and game is right because so many letters fit the bill gets sued by whoever that is nate dog i was on the fence between that and hot for teacher by van halen throwing that in the old sample bucket but that seemed even more inappropriate than making a bunch of teenage boys stripped down for no reason in her foyer.
Okay. So this is officially super weird and gross.
First of all, going to your teacher's house when it's not some kind of school sanctioned event with lots of people, the whole class, whatever, or so it's just not appropriate. It's super sus.
Second, having your teacher make you undress in front of her when you definitely don't need to do that at her house. This is textbook creepiness.
It's almost certainly a fireable offense. I am just gobsmacked that she did this.
So weird. Gobsmacked is a good word.
I got to say, it's also very interesting to hear of a woman doing something like this. I say interesting.
Horrifying.

It's usually the male teachers who are the creeps.

Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? Good reminder that both genders are capable of terrible stuff.

There's something legitimately wrong with this woman.

What are you thinking?

We've talked about maybe reporting this to the school administrators

or anonymously via a school platform.

We don't really know what to do,

and it seems like the problem is starting to grow beyond just the few people I've mentioned. Meaning she's doing this to other kids? Maybe that's what he means.
Or maybe he just means that the word is spreading or she's just being inappropriate with a bunch of kids. I see.
A real problem. What would you do? Signed, dealing with something bizarre and debating whether to say au revoir when I just want to sing my repertoire.
Gabe, I'm tempted to make a joke about him banging his teacher, but I'm realizing that part of the problem here is that we tend to not take stuff like this as seriously when it's a female teacher and a male student. And I know that's not okay.
Yeah, it's interesting. We would never make that joke if a woman wrote it and said her male teacher did this.
So it's like, what's the difference? Yeah, the double standard is disturbing and very interesting. That was like my gut reaction was like, ah, and who knows? Maybe that's also informing how our friend here feels about whether to report this.
There might be some desensitization or stigma around stuff like this for men. Okay.
I'm a little stunned over here. First of all, to state the obvious, what your teacher is doing is not okay.
It's oversteppy. It's inappropriate.
It's unboundaried at best. At worst, it's legitimately creepy and predatory.
And again, doing the whole like, what if this was a male teacher doing it to female students, it would of course be creepy and predatory. 100%.
Hey girls, can you try on new swimsuits in my garage? That's just, you're going to jail, hopefully, for something like that. Now, we obviously don't know this woman.
We don't know what her intentions are, what her moral compass is like, whether she's actually being pervy with you guys or she just has no sense of what's appropriate and inappropriate as a teacher. But it almost doesn't matter to me because she's an adult.
You guys are minors. She's a teacher.
She knows the law. She knows the rules or she should.
And I cannot imagine a universe where a teacher has a good reason to invite a handful of her students to her house to try on new outfits in front of her. This is just patently inappropriate and gross.
And how it made you feel uncomfortable, like it crossed a line. You said it was a wake up call.
That's absolutely a normal response to something like this. And I think it's kind of all the data you need to know that something wasn't right about that situation.
And on top of it, she's maybe doing this with other kids or she could. So this is bad news.
Right. It sounds like there's a pattern of this behavior.
It's getting worse. So my strong feeling is that you need to report her.
And here's how I'd do it. First, I'd get together with your friends, inquire anyone who's had contact with her, create a shared document, document every concerning interaction or experience you've had with this teacher up till now.
Write down the details, the dates, the locations, who was involved, what she specifically said or did, what the outcomes were. Also, include any witnesses and preserve any evidence, text, emails, anything you have.
Don't spend weeks and weeks building this file. You can probably knock it out within a week, but it's worth putting in a little time to capture all this in detail, have it in writing, because then you're going to want to talk to some trusted adults, starting with your parents, and tell them what has been going on.
And you can talk to your parents in parallel to the documentation phase. You don't need to wait, but you want to have this evidence in hand before you take the next step, which is scheduling a meeting with the right people at your school.
The principal, the school counselor, a trusted teacher or two, telling them what this teacher did. Also, I'm not sure if you go to a private school or a public school, but if you're at a public school, there should be a Title IX coordinator assigned to your school.
And that would be a good person to talk to. So Title IX, if you don't know, is a federal law that prohibits gender discrimination and, I believe, harassment in educational institutions that receive federal funding.
So something like this is exactly what they're there to help with. And your parents should support you guys in this reporting process.
They should probably even be there in person. I'm sure they'll want to be.
In that meeting, you guys tell your story. You can keep it somewhat high level, but include the key details, including the ones you shared with us, and hand them in or send them the document you created so they could read it all in full.
At that point, I'm pretty confident that your school will kick off a formal process. It'll begin by talking to this teacher, investigating your reports, maybe interviewing you guys some more, running this up the chain of command, possibly slash probably notifying the police, and then taking appropriate action, which hopefully means removing this teacher from your school.
You also have the option of reporting this through a formal complaint channel, like the school platform you mentioned, but I think there's something powerful about telling your story in person. I think that's going to make an even bigger impact with your administrators.
It'll be much harder to ignore. Also, those more formal channels, they might lead to the school district or some third party or something, and who knows how long it'll take for them to read and respond.
But hey, maybe you do both. And look, if for some crazy reason your school does not address your complaint adequately, you can escalate this.
You can notify your state's Department of Education. You can contact Child Protective Services or the equivalent in your state.
You can notify the Department of Education's office for civil rights. They enforce civil rights laws in educational institutions.
So you have options, but I have a strong feeling your school is going to be all over this, especially if your documentation is compelling. And then you just got to let the process unfold.
You guys might want to be prepared for things to be a little awkward with this teacher in the beginning, but I have to imagine that they're going to place her on leave while they investigate, which means you shouldn't have to see or talk to her while they look into this. And more likely, you might have to deal with other students wanting to talk to you about what happened if they hear she's suspended or fired.
That's only normal, so you might want to think about how you'll handle all that. Totally up to you.
You're allowed to say as little or as much as you want. But if this were me, I'd probably err on the side of saying less or nothing at all, just because it's neater and you want your document to speak for itself without the rumor mill going nuts.
But probably word's going to get around because high school. High school.
And she's also talking to all these students about their friends and boyfriends. It's so weird.
Exactly. Look, while all of that is happening, I would encourage you to talk about what happened here with the right people.
You feel like you could use some support. So obviously your family, the school counselor, somebody in your community, outside counseling services, a therapist, a support group.
There are tons of resources out there. I know what you went through with this teacher was not as bad as this kind of thing can get.
and I am very relieved to hear that. But this did leave a mark on you.
It left you with some weird feelings. It might have raised some questions for you about adults or authority figures or your school specifically.
I also wonder if it might have changed your feelings about choir in any way. I wonder if maybe it's changed your relationship with all of these incredible extracurriculars that you do, which would be a real shame because this sounds like a really special program.
It's such an awesome way to express yourself. It's so fun.
So if you feel like you're losing interest in your extracurriculars, if school feels stressful or unsafe, if you find yourself losing interest in your studies or in your hobbies, those are all important signs to pay attention to. And if you feel any of those, please talk to somebody.
That's really important. Agreed, Gabe.
Man, I am so angry at this teacher, not just for doing what she did, but for doing it to these super talented, ambitious, awesome young people who just want to sing and compete and be great at what they do. It's despicable.
Almost don't have words. If this happened to Jaden or Juniper, I'd honestly, I would go thermonuclear.
It's so upsetting as a parent. I'm so sorry this happened to you.
It is not okay. I'm grateful it wasn't worse.
I'm even more grateful that you and your friends know to trust your instincts that something isn't right here and that you have the confidence to speak up about it. I'm super proud of you for that.
I hope your school addresses this quickly and effectively and that you can get back to doing what you love with a director who treats you and teaches you guys well. Sending you and your friends a big hug, not a creepy one in my house on a Saturday at 2 p.m., a very appropriate virtual one via this podcast.
Wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.
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You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. All right, what's next? Hey there, Jordan and Gabe.
About six years ago, I divorced my wife. We'd been together for almost 12 years, married for nine of them.
We have three kiddos together, a 17-year-old daughter, a 16-year-old son, and a 13-year-old son. We got divorced because she had multiple affairs, which I first learned about when my youngest son was five.
I forgave her for the first affair and stayed for another four years, always suspecting, but never having hard evidence of, further affairs until she finally came clean about them. Brutal.
I am so sorry to hear this. I'll admit, I was not a perfect husband.
I worked a lot trying to provide a good life for her and our kids. I appreciate that you're willing to look at your side of things, but multiple affairs, lying them over a period of years? Not okay.
If you're not happy in a marriage, if you don't feel connected to your partner, you tell them, you work on it, or you separate. Don't go ham on Ashley Madison or whatever.
In the end, she disappeared for a couple months in the summer of 2017, only to return to say she was living with a man twice her age. She was 31, he was 63, and she wanted the kids to meet him.
Okay. amicable.
The only delay was the mandatory waiting period that our state requires. We divided what little we had easily and came to a great custody agreement.
But as soon as our divorce was final, her new man, who immediately turned out to be a very controlling, manipulative, abusive drunk, started making things difficult co-parenting wise, making demands, threatening to make her take me back to court to change our custody arrangements, generally being an ass, and even assaulting me on the side of the road one morning after following me to work. Wow, my god, what a nightmare.
After countless incidents and continued bad decisions on the part of my ex-wife, which I was smart enough to document, I took out a loan, hired a lawyer, and took her back to court for full custody of our kids. Wow.
It was an easy win, and even the judge had comments about her behavior. All of this was noted in our custody agreement.
Bravo. I'm very sorry that things had to get contentious, but if her choices are threatening you and your kids, if you're taking literal jabs to the ribcage on the side of the freaking highway, yeah, you got to protect yourself and your kids.
This is insane. A few months later, she married him, then divorced him in less than a year.
Okay, so something's obviously going on with her. Tons of cheating while you were together, this chaotic, short-lived relationship with this maniac.
At best, it sounds like she has extremely poor judgment and is working something out. And at worst, she's mentally unstable.
Yeah. And also the detail about her disappearing for a period of time and then just popping back up with a new guy.
Yeah, there's something happening here. She's either, like you said, unstable or is there possibly like a addiction component to this? But yeah, she's probably not doing great.
I was awarded child support in our custody battle, but I've never enforced it because I don't need her money. I should note that I pay for everything when it comes to our kids.
Health insurance, cell phones, clothes, supplies, driver's ed, sports, extracurriculars, all of it. I make a good living, and it was never about money, only about their safety.
Since the custody agreement was granted four years ago, she's taken every opportunity she can to put me on blast on social media and run me down to anyone who will listen whenever I do something she dislikes. But the minute something happens to her, I'm the first person she calls to help because she knows that I'll do anything for the kids.
And she takes full advantage of that. That's true.
She's a real piece of work. Bad mouthing your ex nonstop on Facebook for four years, four years.
That screams nuts to me. Yeah.
Whenever I see people do that on social media, I'm always like, what's going on there? Even if your ex is a problem, you married him. Right.
And why are you airing all your dirty laundry in public? It just strikes me as so immature, undignified, and it makes everything worse. So what are you doing? Yeah.
Also, for a mother to lose custody of her kids entirely, especially when family courts tend to be, in most places, biased in favor of mothers generally. Good point.
It doesn't matter what that person says on Facebook. Everybody knows that there's something wrong because the people who've seen the evidence are like, yeah, you can't even be, you can't have your kids.
The judge literally wrote it into the agreement. Also, nobody uses Facebook.
So nobody under 75. Correct.
Just this guy's ex-wife and the schizophrenic lady from question one. They're just commenting back and forth on each other's weird posts.
Exactly. Then about six months ago, two things happened.
First, I was sued for a debt from our divorce that she was supposed to pay. I have it in writing in our original divorce settlement and again in writing in the custody agreement.
But because my signature is on the original contract, I was forced to shell out $4,000 to cover it. She told me, oh, well, it's paid now.
Sucks to suck. No intention of paying me back.
The only way to recover my money is to drag her back to court, and I just don't have the patience for it anymore. Oh my god, I'm triggered.
Hashtag triggered. Sucks to suck.
To your co-parent you cheated on in slander and got assaulted who regularly bails your pathetic ass out. Okay.
Yeah, there's something deeply wrong with her. She's just flagrantly taking advantage of you and rubbing it in your face.
I'm done with her. Then, a few days later, I made arrangements for my daughter's senior pictures to be taken.
My ex didn't like the photographer I chose, so I told her that was fine. Find a new one and I'll pay for it.
She tried a couple people and got nowhere. I didn't hear anything about it for weeks, so I reached out to my original photographer and thankfully he was able to squeeze us in.
My ex found out and was furious. Too bad.
She again put me on blast on Facebook and in person about how terrible I am for hiring this guy and excluding her. Yeah, I'm terrible, but you got your kids taken away from you.
So scoreboard. No.
Okay. Look, the fact that she's getting this worked up about something so minor, that kind of tells you everything about her mental state.
This is she's crazy. Yeah.
Also, I can't parent my own kids properly, but I do have time to endlessly shit talk my ex on social media and around interviewing photographers who I never end up hiring. What a piece of work.
Yeah. She doesn't get any five by sevens.
No. After that, I told myself enough is enough and filed paperwork to finally enforce child support.
A month later, my ex was evicted from low income housing for failing to pay her rent and has basically been homeless for the last couple months, crashing with friends and family. It's the second time in the last two years that she's been evicted.
She recently changed jobs again and found a decent place to live that I'm pretty sure she isn't going to be able to afford in the long run. Okay.
Sorry to jump in again, Gabe, but I just got to say all of these details are really painting a picture of a person who's unstable, impulsive, which means she probably has some serious mental health and or addiction stuff going on. You know how hard it is to evict somebody? You have to try pretty hard to get evicted twice in two years.
It's tough. Yeah.
You don't end up in these situations over and over again unless there's something wrong. Right.
I'm furious with this woman, but I also have to acknowledge that she must be suffering. A mood disorder, personality disorder might just be a generally chaotic way of going through life, but something is wrong here.
But it's her responsibility to address that, to talk to somebody, to go on meds, ask for guidance, whatever it is. As long as she's not even bothering to do any of that, this is ultimately her fault slash responsibility.
But then does somebody who is this out of control have the resources and self-awareness to seek out that help? So it's a tough loop. So he goes on, it's been five months since I submitted the paperwork and she hasn't received notice that she's going to have to start paying child support.
I know when she gets evicted this time, she's going to blame it all on me. I'm now starting to feel a little guilty for making her pay.
I don't want the mother of my children to be homeless again, and I also don't want her to be able to tell the kids she thinks it's all my fault because I made her pay. Should I stick to my guns and finally hold her accountable, or should I withdraw my claim with the state and continue to let her slide? Signed, torn about whether I wanna kick up even more drama with my kid's mess of a mama.
What a mess. Yeah, what a story.
First of all, I'm very sorry that your ex is handling her life this way, that she's treating you so poorly, that she's exposed your kids to all this chaos, this danger. It all seems so avoidable.
If she'd just look at what she's doing and get some help, I'm really straddling my anger and my compassion when it comes to her. We got to make room for both.
Something I'm trying to work on, if you can't tell. My knee-jerk response to stories like this are just to get mad at the obviously dysfunctional a-hole partner.
But doing the show, I think I talked about this on our end of year episode, it's really making me realize why we have to make room for more than just one story at a time. Yeah, I agree.
And it makes me wonder what her story about all of this would be because we're only hearing his side of things. And honestly, the facts sound pretty cut and dry.
She sounds like a nightmare. But I'm just curious, like, what would she say about all of this? You know that he worked too much when they were married to provide for them? Look, we don't know every detail, but even if he did play a role in her struggles, at what point do you stop blaming your ex and dragging him on Facebook and go, okay, I got to own my piece of this now.
I got to take care of my life. Even if he were somehow a crappy husband, which it doesn't sound like he was terrible.
I just can't imagine a narrative that would justify her behavior at this point. So you're asking a really good question.
Do you finally hold her accountable or do you withdraw the claim to not add to her hardships and preserve your relationship? And I'm not sure there's one

right answer, but here's what I'm thinking. First of all, based on what you've shared,

it sounds like you are well within your rights to ask her for child support,

both on a purely financial level and given how she's treated you. At the same time,

I think you need to parse your motivations for enforcing this child support order because there's a lot going on here. Part of it's the money.
Sure,

you pay for everything for your kids. You cover debts of hers that you're not even, of course,

at all responsible for. She's not responding to that with even basic courtesy.
So again,

just on a financial level, it does sound appropriate going after the cash. But I'm

sure there's another part of this child support order that's informed by your anger,

your very warranted and very appropriate anger, and might even be a form of revenge or

Thank you. going after the cash.
But I'm sure there's another part of this child support order that's informed by your anger, your very warranted and very appropriate anger, and might even be a form of revenge or comeuppance, which I can also totally understand and relate to. Fine, you want to treat me this way? You want to push me to my limit? Here's what you get.
Sucks to suck. Like you said, enough is enough.
But I also think there's more for you to know about that impulse to hit back at her. Not because it's undeserved.
I think it's largely deserved. But because it might be designed to make you feel better, to give you a sense of justice and a sense of control, and to punch back after being beaten up by this gal for so long.
And in the end, it's possible that it won't make you feel much better. In fact, it might make you feel worse.
It already is because of your guilt. And when you couple that with the fact that she's struggling so much financially, which means in all likelihood, she won't even be able to pay you this child support.
She can't even pay her rent in low income housing. She's basically homeless.
On a practical level, this child support order becomes even less useful. It's kind of a symbolic screw you as opposed to an arrangement that would make life easier for you and your kids.
Plus, like you pointed out, it'll probably just give her more ammunition to blame you for her problems and to poison the well with your kids and for zero benefit financially. I don't know, Gabe.
I'm torn here. I'm of two minds.
I think I would go after it and then just maybe, I don't know, give her some of the money back if I felt guilty, but still it comes to me. I don't know.
On one hand, she's acted egregiously. She should objectively contribute to helping their kids.
I don't think he has any reason to feel guilty about that, given the facts here. On the other hand, she probably can't even comply with this child support order, and it might just degrade whatever relationship they do have even further, if there is one.
So, like, I don't know. Which one's more important? I don't know.
Yeah, it's hard. That is the bind that he's in.
His guilt is really interesting. I think there's more for him to know about that response too.
Does he feel guilty because he's actually asking her to do something that she literally can't do and making her already very difficult life even more difficult? Or is his guilt unwarranted and it's causing him to take on more here than he actually should? And is it actually protecting his ex in an interesting way? And he needs to look at why he feels guilty for just holding her to a higher standard. Exactly.
My hunch is it's the latter. I also wonder if he might've felt a version of this guilt when they were together and he's been protecting her and enabling her in various little ways the entire time.
That's an interesting point. I think anytime we feel guilt, there's something for us to know about why we assign responsibility the way we do, what we do and do not allow other people to experience.
And given the extraordinary facts in this case, the fact that he feels guilty just for asking her to pay when he could use the help, that is meaningful. Yeah, I hear that.
But honestly, if it's me, I'm taking her to the cleaners. I don't care if she's homeless.
Okay, but there are no cleaners to take her to. That's the problem.
So the question he needs to sit with is the largely symbolic victory of enforcing this child support order more important than not causing more tension in their relationship. My feeling is if he's just being practical about this, if it's really just about the money, it's probably not worth it.
But I understand that you lose something by backing up. The real problem you're facing, it seems to me, is what to do with these very difficult feelings that your ex is leaving you with.
Because look, she's provoking you. She's disappointing you.
She's disrespecting you in so many ways. And she gets to be out of control and impulsive and a mess in her life.
And you're the one who has to pick up the pieces and then you're left to hold all of this anger. So dragging her back to court, making her pay you child support, that is one way to assuage the anger and also maybe hopefully theoretically improve your situation.
But like Jordan said, if she's not going to be able to pay it, which by the way, that can result in a number of actions that could make her life so much worse than it already is. And it's already pretty bad.
Having one eviction on your record is already really bad. Having two means she might never be able to rent an apartment again.
There are so many implications from not paying child support. But that's her fault.
Child support notwithstanding, that's all her. No, not saying it's his fault.
I'm just pointing out a dire situation she is in now. That her life is a mess.
Yeah. And the implications of not paying child support when a court is ordering you to, that could be anything from getting your driver's license suspended to intercepting tax refunds, to being found in contempt of court, from my understanding, all of which would make her an even worse co-parent to you.
So you might be shooting yourself in the foot by enforcing this. If she's not going to be able to even pay you this money, then it's kind of an impotent form of working through this rage that you feel.
So this is why I really feel for you. Your ex has created a number of problems, but the one that seems hardest to solve is how to live with and how to work through the very intense feelings that her choices are leaving you with.
That I think is where you need to focus your energy. Totally.
But so what does he do about it? Cause if I'm him, I'm just walking around fricking furious at her for the rest of my life. And that sucks.
Yeah. He's going to have to find his own process there.
I can tell you that it starts with feeling the anger, really allowing yourself to be in touch with it, not stuffing it down, which based on your letter, I don't think you're going to have much trouble doing. Yeah, I was going to say step one, he's absolutely crushing it.
Yeah, you're nailing it so far. But then what? You're just angry and he's going to have to learn how to channel that anger into other things.
I think the best one is taking even better care of his kids to compensate for the very tragic mother that they have. He might also want to channel this rage into his career.
He can start developing a physical practice and go to the gym to charge it that way. He can talk it out with some close friends.
I hope he has a few. There are some healthy venues here, but ultimately, I think he's going to have to do what you did, Jordan, which is make room for his anger and his empathy.
As hard as that is, it's an interesting theme on today's episode, because he is dealing with somebody who is not quite right. To put it mildly.
So I'm not just saying focus on your kindness and just let go of your anger. I'm saying be angry and have compassion.
And they are compatible feelings. That might also be a huge step toward a kind of forgiveness toward your ex.
And that forgiveness, which as we talk about all the time is a process that could in time help ease this very understandable burning rage that you feel. It's funny.
You mentioned channeling your rage into work and the gym. It's like, how'd you gain 25 pounds of lean muscle over the last 18 months? And why do you spike the TPS reports to the manager's basket? Wham! Let me tell you a little tale called sucks to suck.
Sucks to suck. Wham! Look, Tom, we appreciate your hard work, but you don't need to dunk on everyone in the office.
We're all in the same team here. This is the fifth Keurig machine we've had to replace this month.
Yeah. You push the lever down.
You don't have to use your hammer fist on it. I guess I'm realizing that a lot of this job is it's really just bearing this anger, all jokes aside, because she's probably going to continue acting this way and continuing to provoke him.
And he ultimately can't fix her. In a way, people like this triggering other people's rage is all they have because the rest of their life is completely out of control, right? It's like, oh, I can always get a rise out of my ex-husband.
So the answer might just be letting the feelings be and increasing your capacity to tolerate them. Ultimately, Gabe, it sounds like his revenge was handled because he's a solid dad and her life just sucks.
It sucks. Everything about it sucks.
All that said, I do sincerely hope that your ex finds a way to take care of herself better. And if there's anything you can do to gently nudge her in that direction without enabling her, if she's willing to hear that stuff from you or whatever, I would do that for her if you can.
Again, I'm not getting the vibe that she even wants advice or help from you other than the occasional bailout check. But if there's a window, I would take it.
Who knows with somebody like this? I'm very sorry you and your kids are going through all this. You guys don't deserve any of it, but it is an interesting opportunity to learn how to work with a tough situation.
Sending you guys a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what else sucks to suck? Missing out on the crazy good deals on the fine products and services that support this show.
That one got stuck in my craw if you couldn't tell. We'll be right back.
If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.
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Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up.
Hey guys, I'm a longtime listener and a big fan of the negotiation episodes you did with Alex Coutts, episodes 70, 73, and 76. But I've been having a hard time following his advice when it comes to negotiating salaries for entry-level positions.
I often find employers unwilling to negotiate with me, and usually salary negotiations take place during the interview rather than with HR via email afterward. Another common issue is that for these positions, employers generally don't issue written offer letters, forming a harder basis to negotiate.
As a college student, these are often the positions I find myself interviewing for given my class schedule, which limits me to part-time work unless I'm willing to work insane hours. Is this common with entry-level positions? Do I need to adjust my strategy here? Signed, having a think about how not to get hoodwinked when they won't put these offers in black ink.
This is a good question. I love that you want to work on this.

I also love that you're pushing for the best possible salary, even at this level. It's like

my friend Ramit Sethi says, he's another great negotiation expert I would follow. He's been on

the show a bunch of times. You don't get what you deserve.
You get what you negotiate. So yes,

from what I can tell, it's common for entry levellevel or part-time roles to not do formal written offers, especially in industries where turnover is high, the roles are more transactional. Retail, food service, internships, jobs like that, those positions often use verbal agreements or informal emails to talk about salary.
But does that make negotiation harder? Maybe not. Alex Kutz, who's a great negotiation teacher, big fan of his, he approaches negotiation as a conversation, ideally one based on empathy, mutual respect, collaboration.
Yeah, a formal offer letter might help. It might give you something concrete to respond to.
But not having one doesn't mean you can't negotiate. In fact, I might argue that informal discussions can be more helpful in some ways because nothing is set in stone yet.
The offer isn't boilerplate. It might be somewhat flexible.
So if a manager calls you and goes, all right, we want to hire you 25 bucks an hour, there's nothing stopping you from going, hey, great. Thank you.
I think I'm worth 30 and I'm going to work my butt off for you. And here's a bunch of reasons how I'm going to do that.
What do you say? Whereas if they send you a formal job offer that's a copy paste from HR that says 25 bucks an hour, that might just be what they offer everyone. And that's that.
And there's no flexibility at all. So yes, I'd adjust your strategy a little, but mostly I'd revisit this assumption that entry level jobs are trickier, that informal offers are hard to negotiate.
I'd adjust that assumption and give it a go. Beyond that, I do have a few tips that I've learned from Alex and Ramit and just from experimenting myself over the years.
First, you can negotiate more than just salary. If an employer is firm on pay, you can pivot to other things.
Flexible hours, so for example, you could change your schedule during final exams or whatever. You could push for remote work options if that even applies in your case.
You can ask for professional development opportunities if they exist. You can request a performance review sooner so you can try to negotiate your salary up after proving yourself, stuff like that.
Also, if negotiations are happening during the interview, then you have to show up to these conversations prepared with the number you want and with market data to back it up. You could literally say in the room, okay, 25 an hour, right? I hear that.
Based on my research or based on my experience, a competitive rate for this role would actually be around $30 an hour. What do you think? How flexible are you on that? Be respectful, but be confident.
A big part of negotiation is just getting comfortable owning and standing by your value. It's framing your counter with logic, not emotion, and backing it up with the specific value you can bring to the role.
So instead of being like, but I'm a college student. I can't survive on 25 bucks an hour, which they don't care.
I'd say something like, look, I'm great with customers. I learn fast.
I can tackle XYZ projects for you immediately with ABC results. I feel based on this, that 30 is fair and reflects what I can offer you.
Of course, that assumes you know what you can uniquely offer and that has to align with what they actually need, which is crucial. That's part of your prep too.
Look up briefcase technique. We'll link to it in the show notes.
I think I've talked about it on the show before as well. You basically roll in and solve a problem for the employer and they're like, I can't afford not to hire this guy at the rate he's brought up.
And if getting a written offer would help you, you can always ask for it. Maybe you send him an email saying, hey, great to meet you today.
Thank you for the offer. Could you send the details over in writing so I can review it and get back to you? Totally fair.
My last thought, just a timeless negotiation technique. You always have to be ready to walk away.
If you're not getting the salary you want and the salary you want is attainable, sometimes saying no is the best move. It might shock an employer into giving you the salary you want if they really like you.
It might also free you up to keep looking until you get the number you want. Either way, having options gives you leverage.
Also, if you have another offer for, say, $30, they have to match it or beat it, or they have to give you something valuable to make up for it, like they cover your lunch every day or whatever. And don't forget to think about this as practice.
All of this is practice. You're learning by doing.
Negotiation is about having confidence, and confidence only comes from asking for what you want and standing by it, which you can only really learn by doing. I'm not sure how much this offer thing is really an obstacle, but if it is an obstacle, it just means you need to be more prepared

and more creative.

And you might have to, in the end,

settle for a salary you don't love

for this period of your life.

You're a college student.

That's somewhat normal.

It doesn't mean you can't get in there

and crush it and then get that number up

in a few months.

I'd always keep trying to perform better

and earn more.

You do this enough times.

You build a great reputation.

You'll be amazed at what you can earn

in just a few years.

You got this. Good luck.
And now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lit filler.
My recommendation of the week is the Fidelity debit card. No ATM fees globally.
The interest rate and the cash management accounts, it's something like a high-yield savings account rather than a checking account, which most ATM cards are attached to. Those are like 0%.
And I think I'm getting somewhere between four and five or maybe even higher. It depends on the interest rate fluctuates, right? Also, Fidelity has great customer service, especially compared to retail banks where you're stuck talking to an automated system.
And if you get a human, they're like looking at the same website as you are. It's infuriating.
Debit cards are usually crap across the board. They don't pay you interest on the money in the account.
They charge you fees to use it. Not good.
This one actually offers some solid benefits. Interest rates, good customer service.
They reimburse the ATM fees. Even if you get money out of a machine that charges you six bucks, they just refund it to you.
We're going to link to this card in the show notes. I hope it's a helpful one for you.
I found this because I was so sick of the retail banks that I use offering me just terrible options unless I had a ton of money in there and then the options were mediocre. I looked at Fidelity and immediately was like, oh, this is a real debit card for somebody who is not going to get taken advantage of by the McDonald's of banks, which is every retail bank.
Also, in case you all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. A lot of fun discussions going on in there.
Just look for the Jordan Harbinger subreddit if you're a Redditor. Okay, next up.
Hi, guys. I was recently scammed by two guys pretending to be buyers for my photography equipment, which I had listed for sale on a Facebook marketplace.
They came to my home, pretended to transfer the money to me, and pressured me to hand over the goods, insisting that the funds would take a few hours to appear in my account. I consider myself knowledgeable about scams, but in the moment, despite realizing that I was being scammed, I still handed over the equipment.
Sorry to hear that. I hate scammers.
I hate these people. Looking back, there were no green flags, only red ones, but I felt unable to stop what was happening.
Was it because I had already made the mistake of letting two strangers into my home and wanted to avoid escalating the situation? Yeah, maybe. And if so, you should thank yourself for staying safe.
You never know what people like this are capable of, especially lowlifes. I mean, these are scammers who knows if they're like, yeah, and if she just says we can't take it, just pistol whipper, right? You don't know.
Yeah, it's interesting. This is reminding me of the question we took a few weeks ago from the guy who got scammed by the locksmith.
We were talking about how much harder it is to say no to somebody once they're standing in front of you and the problem is already underway. Like the psychological costs

of telling one to go F themselves and leave is are a lot higher at that point than they are when

you're texting and they're talking about meeting up or whatever. Yeah.
Interesting. I know I made

a huge blunder by inviting strangers into my home and thank God they didn't do anything violent to

me or my family. Also, I had a baby just a week before this incident and was already dealing with a lot, both emotionally and physically.
Not an excuse for my blunder in any way. I don't know, I'm sure that played a big role.
You're overwhelmed, you're distracted, you're maybe in some pain still, you're sleep deprived. You're definitely not at 100%.
You're vulnerable. You gotta have some compassion for yourself here.
Thankfully, there's a happy ending. I kept an eye on local shops and online marketplaces.
And a week later, I found my equipment listed at a pawn shop. I contacted the police who confiscated everything.
Now I'm just waiting for it to be returned to me. Wow, that is amazing.
So cool. You never hear of that happening, really.
Yeah, very rarely. Great job That is a happy ending man.
That must feel great I hope they nabbed the scumbags hard for this. I don't I don't know how you trace something.
I don't think they did They just got the stuff. Yeah, what a bunch of asshats.
Wow Why does being scammed make you feel guilty and ashamed even though you're the victim? What is this psychology? Looking into the frame around this strange shame when we're not the ones to blame for falling into this game? Gabe, I'm curious when the cops seize fenced goods from a pawn shop, does the pawn shop just have to eat the cost of that? I don't know how that works. Yeah, I was wondering the exact same thing.
I think so because the cops are not going to reimburse them, right? But that kind of sucks for the pawn shop. It does.
Yeah. Cause they can't ask everybody who walks into prove ownership before they accept stuff.
Hey, this has been in my family for a hundred years. Okay.
Show me the receipt. Although I have to imagine that a huge amount of pawn shop business, especially in dodgy areas, it has to be stolen goods.
Yeah, it has to be. So again, I'm very sorry this happened to you.
It is awful to be scammed. Even when the stakes are relatively low, even when you end up being made whole.
I'm also sorry this happened right after you had a baby. Like I said, it's a vulnerable time already.
So to be taken advantage of on top of it, I'm sure that made all of this feel even worse. Also, as a parent, I know the last thing you wanna think about the world after you have a child is that the world is full of bad people or that you are somehow a bad parent for not clocking people like this before they could scam you.
So I'm sure there's a lot going on for you in all of this. It's a really interesting question.
Why do we feel guilty and ashamed when we're victims? The criminals are the ones who should feel guilty and ashamed. Victims should just feel sad and angry.
But we hear from scam victims fairly often and they all describe the same thing. I shared this several months back.
Even I was a victim of a scam recently, this Facebook ad. It was a small-time Facebook advertising scam that locked me out of my account for the show for a little while.
And I had some of the same feelings myself because, you know, I'm savvy. I talk about this stuff, and I still ended up installing something that looked like it was from Facebook and wasn't.
And it was clearly a hole in Facebook security, but still, I felt dumb for falling for it. So I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
And I think what happens is, first of all, when we get scammed or targeted, we tend to ask ourselves what we could have done differently. And that's appropriate to some degree, because we obviously need to understand what role we played in a situation, own that and figure out how to prevent it from happening again.
But I think we often go a few steps further and blame ourselves entirely for what happened. Or we turn our anger at the scammer against ourselves for some reason, and then that turns into guilt and shame.
So that's one thing I think we need to parse, how to take the appropriate accountability without entirely self-blaming. The other thing that happens is getting scammed.
It's a blow to your ego. It reveals where we are vulnerable.
It reveals our mistakes. We feel dumb.
We feel naive. We know we're supposed to be better than this, right? But here we are down, I don't know, whatever, 20 grand or five grand in photography equipment, being sextorted on Instagram, whatever it is, realizing we let a couple of two-bit criminals in our living room, whatever it is, that can be a big blow to how we view ourselves or how we like to view ourselves and that can create a lot of shame too for not being as savvy or powerful or cautious as we wish slash thought we were i think it also makes us realize that we're not always as in control of our lives as we think we are and not feeling in control can lead to feelings of weakness or inadequacy or fear and for some people that can that can be a little shameful, too.
Yeah, totally. The control piece is huge, I think.
And look, some of this shame might be somewhat adaptive. It might be helpful to feel a certain degree of shame just enough so that we're motivated to learn and get better.
Those people who are always falling for scams, they've been falling for scams for 20 years, they probably don't have this reaction. When they fall for a scam, they're just like, oh, and then they just go give their money to another psychic or another get rich quick MLM.
Yeah, like maybe you should be a little ashamed. Maybe that would help.
Maybe a little bit of, gee, I thought I was better than this, would have helped you avoid doing this for another decade. So the motivation part is there, but that's different from being so embarrassed that you can't leave the house.
You won't talk to anyone anymore. Then there's something that needs to get worked through.
The only antidote is to own the shame, talk about it with a few people, allow yourself to fully confront the vulnerabilities that the scam exposed, which you're doing beautifully already, and then to take steps to protect yourself and do things differently next time. Shame tends to thrive in secrecy, in unresolved tensions between different parts of ourselves, in stuff we don't want to face.
But it has a hard time surviving in whatever is owned and acknowledged openly. And when you get better, I find that the shame ends up becoming an interesting part of the story of how you learned how to do that.
It's like the shame is a kind of reagent in the chemical reaction of growth or something. It has to be in the mix.
A lot of victims also feel like they're going to be judged for what happened to them. That's a part of it.
They're worried about what their friends and family will think, especially if the scam is perceived as embarrassing. Gabe, I'm thinking about that guy who wrote in a few months back.
I think he lost 19 grand in Bitcoin from a pop-up on a porn website. It's like, ugh, I might want to leave that detail out.
40 grand, if I remember correctly. But yeah, whatever amount you lose is painful.
That was a really a really interesting story that was episode 1000 if anyone wants to go back and listen yeah and look I get it there might be some people out there who do judge I can imagine if I lost 40 grand on a bitcoin scam and I told my dad he'd be like oh that's what you get but I think if people haven't been scammed themselves they do that but mostly I think we project onto other people the self-blame and the self-judgment that we feel. We assume we're going to find it in other people, and that perpetuates the shame.
Also, getting scammed is a huge blow to our sense of safety, to our feeling of trust in the world. This might be one of the hardest parts of being taken advantage of, right? The hit to your worldview.
It's hard to have faith in people after something like this. Now, I don't know why this particular thing would lead to guilt and shame.
Maybe there's some shame around believing that the world is better than it is, and then you feel naive and then you feel shameful. So I guess there's that naivete piece again.
But actually, the more appropriate feeling here is just sadness. I get sad knowing that there are people out there who choose to be criminals, who choose to target people like this.
Yeah, or who are forced to by a really scary world. I keep having to remind myself of that going back to the interview I did with Nathan Paul Southern and Lindsay Kennedy on cyber slavery.
It's basically how a lot of online scammers are actually slaves, literally, in these massive call center operations. That was episode 833, by the way.
My initial instinct is always rage at these creepy scam texts we all get, but then I remember they might very well be refugees from Burma or Thailand or whatever being held hostage literally somewhere in Laos or Burma. It's horrifying to think about.
That obviously doesn't apply to our friend here. It's just something to keep in mind.
Another reason that victims feel guilty is they often put their families and themselves at risk. And this one I understand the most.
If you lose a significant amount of money that you or your children need, or you create a ton of work and headache for your family and trying to recover, I get that. If I lost my kid's college fund to some Bitcoin scammer, or I couldn't pay the mortgage because I was extorted or something, I would feel pretty guilty too, even though it's largely not these victims' fault.
Yeah, that's a very fair point. I also think that hindsight bias plays a big role in these stories, and that hurts too, to look back.
Look, we're always prepared for these scams. After they're over.
Right, like that guy who got scammed by a locksmith a few weeks ago, he described the exact same thing. I think that feeling of, I should have known better, I should have trusted my instincts, I should have paid more attention to those red flags, there were no green flags, just red flag.
You know, that reinforces the guilt, the shame. I also have a theory that it might be one more way to reassert control and feel powerful again, because it's like I couldn't defend myself in the moment.
But now on the other side, I can simulate what it would be like if I did do that, or I can imagine how I'm going to react differently next time. And maybe that fantasy helps us cope with the shame we feel of not having handled it very well.
Sure. But at the same time, doing the postmortem after you get scammed, that's also a crucial part of the recovery process.
When you say to yourself, oh, I did actually clock that sign. I thought that thing he said by text was weird.
I did get a weird vibe from him on the phone and I still let him into my house.

That is very important because what you're doing is confirming for yourself that you

were not totally asleep at the wheel.

You just didn't have the faith in yourself, the confidence in your experience to act on

it.

And next time you will, because now you've learned what can happen.

So replaying the incident might in some ways make you feel worse, but in another way, it might also make you feel better because it's part of how you're learning from all of this. A hundred percent.
So look, that's the psychology of being a scam victim as far as I understand it. But on a practical note, from now on, definitely meet any Facebook marketplace or Craigslist customers out on the sidewalk or even down on the corner of your block or ideally in a public place, never in your house.
One huge lesson you can take away from all this. I'm glad this came at a relatively low cost.
I'm glad you and your family are all okay and congrats on the baby. Go back and check out Dr.
Alo Kanoja if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.
I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is free.
I don't need your credit card number. I don't care about any of that.
It's not gross or schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.
A few people told me that questions had been turned off in there. That was a setting that got changed without my knowing it.
So if you have questions, you can ask them in the course. We get to those pretty quickly.
And the drills in the course take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks.
Build relationships before you need them. You can find it all at sixminutenetworking.com.
Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram.
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If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.
And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show about junk science.
There is this anti-establishment sentiment that leads to blanket science denial, which is enormously problematic and seems to be growing. There is so much false information on the internet, it's very easy to just baselessly claim that legitimate information is false.
We're having to reckon with the fact that the internet is doing this to us. It's very much a double-edged sword.
It's giving us all the information, and so it's very hard to, like, censor things. But then also we have all of these, you know, lies and charlatans and this stuff propagates like wildfire, and it's an enormous problem.
It's just such an alluring narrative. It's so easy to peddle.
We want it to be true so bad, but it's not real. You need to be equipped with some ability, some set of skills to be able to discern the validity of information, particularly scientific.

Platforms like YouTube have had to make adjustments to their algorithm because they have come to understand how much they have been facilitating this destruction of our sociological fabric by allowing people to travel down these rabbit holes. It's a very attractive narrative, right? It gives you sense of purpose.
It's a big problem. That's why we're in the post-truth era.
Whatever you want to find on the internet, it's there. All the truth and all the lies.
When you wrap your identity around a false cause, you're eliminating yourself from some other possible contribution that you could be making. I'm crusading against this thing.
Yeah, we should remain driven and encourage others to do the same.

I think it's the biggest problem facing mankind.

If you want to increase your scientific literacy and not get suckered into believing weaponized hogwash

and passing it off to your friends and family's fact,

check out episode 745 with Dave Farina on The Jordan Harbinger Show.