The Knife: Off Record – 106

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Speaker 24 This story contains adult content and language.

Speaker 28 Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 29 Hello and welcome. This is The Knife Off Record.
I'm Paisha Eaton.

Speaker 32 And I'm Hannah Smith.

Speaker 35 Today we're going to talk about a fraud case that turned into a much bigger story than it appeared at face value.

Speaker 38 But first, we're going to discuss a book that Paisha and I both read and love and we think you will love as well.

Speaker 29 We read it and we listened.

Speaker 40 We did. Which one did we do?

Speaker 7 I actually listened.

Speaker 41 I listened.

Speaker 30 Yeah, I did read.

Speaker 42 Does that count as reading?

Speaker 43 I don't know.

Speaker 29 My mom's a librarian, so I'm going to tell her I read it.

Speaker 44 Yeah, I think it counts.

Speaker 47 The book is called There Is No Ethan: How Three Women Uncovered America's Biggest Catfish by Anna Akbari.

Speaker 51 And the basic synopsis is that Ana takes us through an experience she had meeting this man named Ethan Schumann on an online dating platform, OKCupid, in late 2010.

Speaker 56 I think of this period of time as like there were so many catfishing experiences happening.

Speaker 60 We didn't really know yet to be aware of this or to be wary of it.

Speaker 62 And I feel like I've just listened to and heard so many stories of people being conned around this time period.

Speaker 29 It was such a new moment for online dating.

Speaker 29 I actually met my husband online in 2013 and it was still so new that I remember when people would ask us how we met, we would sort of dodge the question because it was almost like embarrassing.

Speaker 29 I know.

Speaker 34 I was actually just thinking about that the other day.

Speaker 65 It feels like not that long ago, but it was so unusual back then.

Speaker 67 And it was, I remember, I remember meeting people who had said, We met online, and I was like, Oh, that's kind of cool and weird and interesting.

Speaker 42 And what's wrong with you?

Speaker 29 Yeah, because we met online when you couldn't even log into the app on your phone. You were getting on your computer, right?

Speaker 55 Yeah.

Speaker 46 And I think this was the same with this story with There Is No Ethan.

Speaker 70 She's logging into the computer, okay, Cupid, around this time.

Speaker 33 So, this book is part Anna talking about her personal experience being scammed.

Speaker 28 And then it's also part investigative.

Speaker 44 It really feels like a podcast, except it's a book.

Speaker 29 It's a book.

Speaker 7 And that means we read it, whether or not we listened or read it.

Speaker 29 And yeah, listening to it and putting yourself back in that place of wanting to meet someone.

Speaker 29 And being really hopeful when you have chemistry, which we all know can exist digitally, but being on the forefront of that and not knowing how to level your own expectations accordingly.

Speaker 59 Yeah.

Speaker 26 And when you want something so badly, it's really easy to sort of make excuses.

Speaker 24 I spent many years on the online dating platforms, and I can tell you it is harrowing at times.

Speaker 41 I quite depressed it.

Speaker 76 It's gotten so much worse.

Speaker 45 I thought you were going to say gotten so much better.

Speaker 7 No, it's like, no, it has not.

Speaker 42 No one's out there saying, this is such a great experience. I love dating online.

Speaker 67 But it is the modern way.

Speaker 56 I loved listening to this book because it felt like I was listening to an extended podcast that I had hours of, and that is a joy.

Speaker 60 They have an actor do the voice of Ethan, which I thought was good.

Speaker 45 I thought they did a good job and it was really engaging.

Speaker 81 And then Ana goes on to talk about how she connects with these other women who are also victims of the same person.

Speaker 61 And it really pays off.

Speaker 56 So listen to the very end because unlike some stories where you don't get answers, you do get answers here, which is, you know, enticing.

Speaker 29 These victims get all of the answers. And, well, I guess, you know,

Speaker 29 all compared to maybe many other victims of catfishing frauds, but the reveal is mind-blowing.

Speaker 29 It truly is someone you would never expect, which as you're rethinking about the story that you listened to is like, she could never have anticipated the outcome of this.

Speaker 29 You know, there are red flags in a lot of relationships and maybe some people's minds take it to a worst case scenario. I don't even think anyone could have anticipated where this was going.

Speaker 31 Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 84 It's a great listen.

Speaker 59 We highly recommend it.

Speaker 38 Thrilling all the way through.

Speaker 29 And I actually have another recommendation. Oh, Patia.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 85 Coming in with two recommendations.

Speaker 29 Two recommendations today. This one is the con, Caitlin's Baby.

Speaker 30 Okay, I've not heard of this.

Speaker 86 All right.

Speaker 29 So, this is about a woman named Caitlin.

Speaker 28 Is this a podcast?

Speaker 41 This is a podcast.

Speaker 40 Okay.

Speaker 29 This is a podcast, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. And it's about a young woman named Caitlin who reaches out to doulas and both in person and virtually utilizes their services over and over and over again

Speaker 29 through extreme situations like pregnancy loss, rape, and medical events like a coma. You know, they reveal pretty early on not everything is as it seems, but

Speaker 29 the story is just a world I knew nothing about. Doulas, like this online community of people that you can reach out to for birth support no matter where you're at in your pregnancy.

Speaker 29 And, you know, this is a line of work you get into if you're super passionate about it. And you would never imagine someone taking advantage.

Speaker 29 So these doulas were having very intimate experiences with someone that they were trying to help who was misleading them in a major way. And it just blew my mind.

Speaker 29 The extent this person went to to mislead people was so egregious.

Speaker 29 And, you know, there's a reveal at the end of someone very close to her that maybe knew it was happening that I found especially surprising. It's a great listen.
The story moves really quickly.

Speaker 29 And there was a lot I didn't know about that world that I think I have a much better understanding of now.

Speaker 44 Wow, that sounds really great.

Speaker 4 I'll definitely check that out.

Speaker 48 Yeah.

Speaker 24 So you didn't have a doula.

Speaker 29 I didn't have a doula. No, I didn't know what they were.
I just did it the old-fashioned way with a lot of drugs.

Speaker 64 Great.

Speaker 39 However you choose to do it is great.

Speaker 40 Yes.

Speaker 64 I mean, we've talked a lot about like.

Speaker 52 medical fraud and stories in that world, but I never heard about someone someone conning a doula before.

Speaker 84 So, yeah, that's definitely intriguing.

Speaker 29 Yeah, I mean, you're in a way seeking, it's not medical support. Like, these people are not doctors, but I think birth is maybe referred to as a routine medical event or a routine health event.

Speaker 29 And it does surprise me that this sort of in-between is there for these moments that are very close to birth.

Speaker 26 Thanks for the recommendation.

Speaker 76 I always love a good podcast recommendation, so I will check it out.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

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Speaker 19 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 20 That's pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 89 Hi, I'm Martine Hackett, host of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenix.

Speaker 89 This season, we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with MG and CIDP.

Speaker 89 Our hope is to inspire, educate, and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone. We'll hear from people like Corbin Whittington.

Speaker 89 After being diagnosed with both CIDP and dilated cardiomyopathy, he found incredible strength through community.

Speaker 90 So when we talk community, we're talking about an entire ecosystem surrounding this condition, including, of course, the patients at the center that are all trying to live life in the moment, live life for the future, but then also create a new future.

Speaker 89 Listen to Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 65 Okay,

Speaker 45 so I have a story to tell you today,

Speaker 96 and it's kind of in multiple parts.

Speaker 60 I thought of this story recently because last week we had a great interview with Jennifer Thompson.

Speaker 36 If you haven't heard that yet, go check it out.

Speaker 43 It made me think back to this story because wrongful conviction does play a role.

Speaker 35 So I wanted to talk to you about it today.

Speaker 51 This is a story that I heard about months and months and months ago.

Speaker 63 I don't know, a year ago, and I have been intrigued by it.

Speaker 56 It kind of falls into that category of I made some calls and wasn't able to find anyone to do an interview for this story.

Speaker 29 Yeah, I remember when you initially found the story and you told me just a little bit about it. But like you said, you made some calls and we had kind of moved on.
So I'm really excited to hear.

Speaker 34 Okay, so the first part of this story takes place in Virginia.

Speaker 77 And most of the information I'm getting here is from an FBI affidavit, as well as an article from Washington City paper called King of Ashburn.

Speaker 64 That is a great article written in 2016.

Speaker 38 This is a story about a man named Osama El-Atari.

Speaker 57 He grew up in Virginia in the 80s and 90s in a middle-class family and then became this notable restaurant owner in Ashburn, Virginia.

Speaker 101 By the early 2000s, he was pretty well known amongst his community and he owned multiple restaurants, including Lucky's Sports Theater and Grill.

Speaker 76 I never heard the term sports theater before, but I think it's just like a sports bar.

Speaker 103 A sports theater.

Speaker 4 Had you heard that before?

Speaker 25 And then two locations of a place called the Original Steakhouse and Sports Theater.

Speaker 44 Also a sports theater.

Speaker 29 Are they performing the sports? sports?

Speaker 49 The original steakhouse and sports theater is described as half booth restaurant and half sports bar.

Speaker 29 I love a booth.

Speaker 30 I love a booth too.

Speaker 96 Any restaurant with a booth, I'm in.

Speaker 55 I'm in.

Speaker 102 I don't even care what they're serving.

Speaker 4 No, they're great. They corral toddlers.

Speaker 17 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 54 That is another great use.

Speaker 29 Huge selling point for me.

Speaker 42 Okay.

Speaker 38 It's also noted that his family owned multiple Buffalo Wing factory locations.

Speaker 25 So it seemed like the restaurant business was kind of the family business.

Speaker 56 And then he got into it.

Speaker 69 And by all accounts, he was really successful. He was also a very flashy guy.

Speaker 87 He loved a good sports car.

Speaker 30 Around 2008, he owned two Lamborghinis, two Ferraris, and a Rolls-Royce Phantom, which I looked that up because I know nothing about cars.

Speaker 42 A Rolls-Royce Phantom today can be as much as like $400,000 to $500,000.

Speaker 29 So many, many, many of my current car, which is easily the nicest I've ever had, and many, many more of the Prius C I had for 12 years before this.

Speaker 44 Yeah, that's well over a million dollars in cars, what he had.

Speaker 71 And at this point, he owned three restaurants, which seemed to be busy, but you have to kind of wonder, okay, well, how much money are you really making here?

Speaker 84 According to the Washington City Paper article, he bought a mansion that had seven bathrooms that was 7,590 square feet for $4.5 million.

Speaker 42 And then he also bought a football jersey at a charity auction for $25,000.

Speaker 70 It was the jersey of NFL player Sean Taylor, who actually was murdered in his home in 2007.

Speaker 69 So, you know, he was definitely spending money.

Speaker 54 His friends and family said that he spent money in a charitable way mostly.

Speaker 71 He bought things for people around him.

Speaker 25 He sponsored local sports teams.

Speaker 60 He was seen as a very generous person

Speaker 60 and was upstanding, this well-to-do guy in his community.

Speaker 43 He did get into some trouble with the law when it comes to driving.

Speaker 102 He got a lot of traffic tickets for driving his cars too fast for speeding.

Speaker 29 Well, you have to wonder, you have all these sports cars. Where are you going?

Speaker 47 Yeah.

Speaker 104 I mean, if you have them, you think you would want to drive them.

Speaker 29 Yeah. I mean, mine would have, you know, I would be going to the grocery store and back.

Speaker 28 Just as fast as you can.

Speaker 77 Yeah.

Speaker 96 Yeah. So he did have traffic violations.

Speaker 76 He did a short stint in jail even for a traffic violation.

Speaker 58 But other than that, he seemed to be on the straight and narrow.

Speaker 81 But then he started to take out bank loans.

Speaker 35 The first one is in December of 2007.

Speaker 43 He secured a $5 million loan from United Bank. And the purpose stated on his loan application was to acquire two more original stakehouse locations in Maryland.

Speaker 60 He provided two cash value life insurance policies to the bank as collateral for this loan.

Speaker 69 And each of those was valued at over $3 million.

Speaker 42 But what didn't come out till later was that, you know, he would not have been able to secure this loan if it weren't for someone at the bank.

Speaker 39 The assistant vice president of United Bank saw these life insurance policies and immediately flagged that they were fake.

Speaker 83 And instead of flagging this to the bank, he met up at a Starbucks with Osama Elatari and essentially said, I want in on this.

Speaker 29 Like, I know you're up to something. Yeah.

Speaker 26 Something is happening here.

Speaker 29 i don't really think that you're going to use this money for these restaurants and basically said i want in on your your scheme well and then if you're osama what choice do you have but to agree because you're up to something and now this person at the bank knows that's a great point yeah so this assistant vice president of the bank created a fake accountant gordon leipzeig

Speaker 83 I don't know if I'm saying that right.

Speaker 7 Well, it doesn't matter. He's fake.

Speaker 28 He's a fake person that he created and fixed the life insurance policies to make them look convincing.

Speaker 32 And then was able, Osama was able to get this loan.

Speaker 30 In exchange, he gave him a $150,000 kickback.

Speaker 41 Classic. Yes.

Speaker 100 And he was able to use these doctored life insurance policies to then go to other banks and get additional loans.

Speaker 24 So he continued to get loans. He also continued to get loans from a United Bank in a total of $17 million.

Speaker 29 And the guy from the Starbucks meetup is in on these other loan acquisitions. I don't know if he is.

Speaker 60 All I could find was that he was in on that first one and got that kickback.

Speaker 33 Okay.

Speaker 26 But at this point then, Osama already had the fake documents that were convincing and looked real.

Speaker 69 So he could use those to get other loans.

Speaker 32 And from the investigation, it looks like he started to spend the money pretty immediately on cars, as well as the home that he bought.

Speaker 34 And then it became this like catch-up game where he wasn't able to pay back these loans.

Speaker 25 So then he started to get more loans.

Speaker 62 And you can sort of get the feeling that the scam can go for a certain amount of time, but there's going to be an end point where he's not able to pay anything back.

Speaker 29 Right. Is he thinking he'll just forever go make fake life insurance policies to get loans?

Speaker 31 This is the big question I have with every fraud story we do is what is the end goal?

Speaker 43 It's like, what is your plan?

Speaker 29 There is no plan.

Speaker 48 Yeah.

Speaker 103 You live large and you have fun.

Speaker 28 And then at some point, it has to stop, right?

Speaker 29 I want to sleep that well at night.

Speaker 41 Me too.

Speaker 25 So, you know, of course, things are going to come to a head.

Speaker 45 By early 2009, he'd taken loans out from seven different banks in a total of around $70 million.

Speaker 29 And okay, I would love to have $70 million,

Speaker 29 but what are you doing with it?

Speaker 55 You have a large amount of money. Yeah.

Speaker 29 We were just talking about what tabs we needed to close in our computers and mine is always old navy.

Speaker 83 Yeah, I mean, you could get a lot of shirts for that percentage of 70 million.

Speaker 45 So he's got a lot of money.

Speaker 38 The banks are catching on and they're demanding their money back.

Speaker 61 And in May of 2009, United Bank realizes that the life insurance documents were faked.

Speaker 73 And authorities show up to Osama's house and he is not there.

Speaker 74 He has fled.

Speaker 79 They did find 18 big screen televisions.

Speaker 29 Okay, I do want to come back to the 18 televisions because I have so many questions. But is United Bank remind me the first bank he secured the loan from? Yes.

Speaker 29 And that is the bank where we know someone else at the bank knew about it.

Speaker 58 Yeah, the assistant vice president.

Speaker 64 I don't know if he was still at the bank at that time.

Speaker 106 He will come back into this later.

Speaker 29 18 big screen televisions. And I don't quite recall, but I'm guessing they were those enormous box

Speaker 42 televisions at that time.

Speaker 39 Yeah, because 2009, 2009, they're not like as thin as they are now.

Speaker 29 They're not the frame TVs.

Speaker 51 No.

Speaker 29 Actually, I don't even think we call them big screens anymore. Right.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 7 So, okay, 18 of them.

Speaker 42 So then he goes on the run, and there's eight months where he's unaccounted for.

Speaker 24 He's on the run, and no one knows exactly where he went.

Speaker 43 At one point, investigators in Brazil supposedly found a death certificate for him and a passport.

Speaker 56 But when it was looked into further, it was clear that that wasn't real.

Speaker 88 And he'd actually bribed someone in Brazil to try to fake his death.

Speaker 67 In June of 2009, he was charged in abstentia with bank fraud.

Speaker 69 So they still didn't know where he was, but it was clear he'd done this.

Speaker 107 He's charged.

Speaker 43 And then in January of 2010, he was found in Texas at a Ferrari dealership.

Speaker 4 Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 29 A true like car shopping compulsion.

Speaker 34 Yeah, I mean, he loved cars.

Speaker 29 I just wonder, wouldn't he want to be a little more incognito?

Speaker 72 Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 100 It's strange, but that's where he was found.

Speaker 35 It also makes you wonder about the money, you know?

Speaker 67 Like, is there money?

Speaker 64 Where did he put it?

Speaker 29 Like, is he physically carrying around all that cash?

Speaker 55 Surely not.

Speaker 29 Surely not. But how's he, yeah, how's he buying the car?

Speaker 30 So in April of 2010, he pled guilty to three counts of bank fraud and one count of money laundering.

Speaker 74 And he was sentenced to 12 years in prison, followed by five years of supervised release and was sent to serve time at the Arlington County Jail.

Speaker 5 So this brings us to the second part of the story.

Speaker 10 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 8 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 9 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 19 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 20 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 89 Hi, I'm Martine Hackett, host of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenix.

Speaker 89 This season, we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with MG and CIDP.

Speaker 89 Our hope is to inspire, educate, and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone. We'll hear from people like Corbin Whittington.

Speaker 89 After being diagnosed with both CIDP and dilated cardiomyopathy, he found incredible strength through community.

Speaker 90 So when we talk community, we're talking about an entire ecosystem surrounding this condition, including, of course, the patients at the center that are all trying to live life in the moment, live life for the future, but then also create a new future.

Speaker 89 Listen to Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 107 Almost as soon as he's arrested, he starts trying to strike deals.

Speaker 106 He immediately turns in the United Bank Assistant Vice President.

Speaker 37 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 80 Who had helped him doctor the life insurance policies.

Speaker 44 Okay.

Speaker 29 He's like, if I'm I'm going down, you're going down with me. Yeah.

Speaker 51 And once he's serving time, he seems to be on alert for any like jailhouse confessions that he can hear.

Speaker 74 He tells authorities at one point that he overheard this guy claiming to be involved in a terrorist smuggling operation.

Speaker 26 He provides details to them.

Speaker 60 That one didn't end up leading to an arrest, but it sets the scene that he is very clearly someone who has, you know, notified law enforcement authorities that he is available.

Speaker 29 Oh, I see. So he's listening, like, what can I give them in exchange for maybe some leniency? Yeah.

Speaker 106 So he's on the lookout.

Speaker 24 He's on the lookout.

Speaker 79 He's like, if I can basically go undercover, I'm a prisoner here, but if there's anyone you're trying to get information out of, I'm your guy.

Speaker 80 Like, I'll do whatever.

Speaker 26 I'll wear a wire if it can get me out of prison sooner.

Speaker 29 I don't know that I would think to do this, but if I did, I would try.

Speaker 30 You would try. I would do anything.

Speaker 48 Yeah.

Speaker 106 You know, it could be a dangerous thing to do, but this is what he does.

Speaker 34 And pretty soon he gets the chance to do it.

Speaker 103 He ends up in a cell next to George Avila Torres.

Speaker 56 And people might recognize that name because he is now considered to be a serial killer.

Speaker 51 I want to note that his name is spelled Jorge.

Speaker 49 I looked this up because people kept calling him George.

Speaker 69 And he said that he goes by both Jorge and George.

Speaker 74 At one point, an officer asked him which he preferred, and he said George.

Speaker 56 It sounds like he went by Jorge with his family.

Speaker 25 So I'm going to call him George, but that is the situation with his name.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 29 So

Speaker 47 he is also in Arlington County Jail, awaiting trial.

Speaker 26 In 2010, George Avila Torres was arrested and charged with crimes committed in Arlington.

Speaker 25 The first one, on February 10th, 2010, he attempted to abduct and assault a 26-year-old woman who is unnamed in court documents.

Speaker 60 She was walking to her boyfriend's house.

Speaker 61 He came up behind her, grabbed her jacket, and kind of flashed that he was holding a gun.

Speaker 95 They had a struggle and she just said, you know, do you want my money?

Speaker 100 Take my purse.

Speaker 81 But he kept pulling her toward a tan Dodge Durango.

Speaker 46 She was actually able to sort of shove her purse toward him and leave it and run away and escape from him.

Speaker 36 She had a friend who lived a couple houses down.

Speaker 39 And so she just ran into her friend's house.

Speaker 46 They immediately called the police and she made a report.

Speaker 71 She reported what he looked like.

Speaker 44 She had clocked his vehicle as well.

Speaker 29 That is terrifying.

Speaker 32 So scary.

Speaker 69 So then, you know, the police started to search.

Speaker 38 They didn't find anyone immediately and they never found her purse.

Speaker 79 Two weeks later, close by, two female graduate students who are also unnamed in the court documents were walking to one of their homes when he emerged from behind a parked car.

Speaker 66 And it was the same thing, kind of.

Speaker 71 He immediately flashed that he had a gun.

Speaker 56 He demanded their wallets.

Speaker 104 They said they didn't have them on them.

Speaker 60 So he forced them to go into the house.

Speaker 79 He tied them up.

Speaker 104 One of them was able to kind of get loose and make a call to 911 with with her cell phone.

Speaker 35 And this is 2010 again.

Speaker 25 So like the cell phone situation is different than we have now.

Speaker 38 He then got her phone, threw it against the wall and smashed it.

Speaker 46 And then took one of these women outside into his vehicle, the same tan Dodge Durango, and drove her to a remote area.

Speaker 49 He sexually assaulted her.

Speaker 84 then tied a scarf around her neck and attempted to kill her.

Speaker 46 She lost consciousness, but then then woke up outside in the snow and is alive.

Speaker 70 And a passerby stopped and found her.

Speaker 46 She immediately made a police report.

Speaker 44 And based on her description of him, as well as the vehicle, law enforcement pretty quickly realized this was the same person who had just tried to attack a woman two weeks prior.

Speaker 44 Arlington County Police had also made a note that a few days before, they had observed this guy in the same type of vehicle out, like stalking women.

Speaker 103 He looked really suspicious and it was Georgia Vila Torres.

Speaker 63 They were able to locate him pretty quickly and arrested him on February 27th, 2010 at Joint Base Meyer-Henderson Hall, which is a residence hall on a military base.

Speaker 106 He was a Marine at the time.

Speaker 56 They searched his vehicle and found the school ID of the woman that he attempted to murder.

Speaker 63 And when they searched his barracks, they found a gun and incriminating content on his computer that was sexually violent.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 29 So they found him based on the witness identification of him and of his car. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 29 They didn't have a name or anything, but they must have had, maybe they're just searching like a tan, what was it, a Bronco?

Speaker 98 Dodge Durango.

Speaker 29 A Dodge Durango. A tan Dodge Durango.
And that's how they found him.

Speaker 65 Yeah.

Speaker 29 How old was he?

Speaker 32 He was in his early 20s.

Speaker 35 I think he was 21 at the time.

Speaker 4 Wow. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 102 They did take DNA samples from him.

Speaker 81 He was charged and was awaiting trial at the time when he encounters Osama El-Atari in prison.

Speaker 27 They are in cells next to each other.

Speaker 96 And it's unclear to me exactly why they wanted him to wear a wire.

Speaker 24 I believe that investigators wondered if he was connected to a third murder.

Speaker 70 and they also just wanted more evidence to be able to you know get a clean conviction so osama elatari agreed he told investigators he thought that this guy was a monster he had already encountered him and had a really low opinion of him but he was like great i'll do it i'll wear a wire and i'll befriend this guy Osama must be really good at keeping his cool.

Speaker 5 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 24 Well, the guy that was able to convince banks to give him $70 million in loan.

Speaker 76 Of course, of course.

Speaker 27 Got to be like a smooth talker. Yeah.

Speaker 107 Yeah. Gets people to trust him.

Speaker 65 Wow.

Speaker 29 You also are like, if anyone finds out that I'm wearing a wire, I will never live it down here.

Speaker 71 This guy is clearly like a violent.

Speaker 26 you know, dangerous person or has done violent and dangerous things.

Speaker 80 So yeah, you have to assume it would be very nerve-wracking to wear a wire and then try to get him to confess.

Speaker 29 Well, and because Osama had years left on his sentence. So it's not like, well, I'm going to be out of here in six months anyway if I get caught.

Speaker 33 Yes, exactly.

Speaker 60 So he befriended George Avila Torres and he started by flattering him, just telling him that he was so impressed with his crimes.

Speaker 45 And this worked.

Speaker 98 Wow.

Speaker 60 You know, he was like, you're such a genius.

Speaker 36 If you wrote a book about everything you did, I would read it.

Speaker 29 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 56 And it works.

Speaker 103 So then George Avila Torres starts saying, well, they don't even know half of it.

Speaker 32 And I've done so much more.

Speaker 25 He admits that he's not just a rapist and a kidnapper, but he's also a murderer.

Speaker 29 And he's proud of this.

Speaker 1 Oh, so proud. He's like gloating.

Speaker 29 Yeah. That has to be so hard for someone to listen to.

Speaker 65 Yeah.

Speaker 96 Totally screwed up.

Speaker 79 And in order to get him to keep talking, he's having to be like, that's so cool.

Speaker 85 Like, it's amazing that you got away with it.

Speaker 75 Elatari ends up getting Avila Torres saying on tape that he killed Navy petty officer Amanda Snell in 2009.

Speaker 24 She was 20 years old and also stationed at Joint Base Meyer Henderson Hall just down the dorm hall from him.

Speaker 29 And at this point in Amanda's case, was she disappeared or did they know that she had been a victim of foul play?

Speaker 75 So her murder was unsolved.

Speaker 29 But they knew that she had been murdered.

Speaker 64 Yes, she was found dead in her room.

Speaker 25 Her cause of death after an autopsy was determined to be asphyxiation.

Speaker 51 And it was just clear based on the scene and investigators didn't have questions.

Speaker 49 They knew that there was foul play involved.

Speaker 32 There had actually been an investigation on the military base at the time and tons of people were questioned, including George Avila Torres.

Speaker 67 And he agreed to the questioning at the time. He allowed his room to be searched.

Speaker 106 He even provided a DNA sample.

Speaker 29 Be interesting to know if he was polygraphed.

Speaker 64 Yeah.

Speaker 67 But at the time, for whatever reason, I wasn't able to find out.

Speaker 54 They weren't able to connect him to it.

Speaker 35 But then, you know, once he was arrested for these other violent and sexually violent crimes, they started to look at him again, especially because he was, you know, in such close proximity to where Amanda lived.

Speaker 63 Right.

Speaker 70 He confessed on tape.

Speaker 69 Now, that gets a little tricky because with jailhouse confessions, you don't always know if they're true.

Speaker 36 You know, was he the kind of guy who would just brag about something?

Speaker 29 When you say he confessed on tape, you're talking about to Osama. Yes.
Right. No one confessed during their investigation and a bunch of questioning.

Speaker 32 So he denied it when he was questioned initially, in the initial investigation, and was not charged or arrested or anything.

Speaker 101 But once he was in prison for the crimes he committed in Arlington, the attack and kidnapping and attempted murder, they started to look at him again because he literally like lived down the hall from Amanda.

Speaker 54 I believe that this is why one of the things that they wanted Osama Elatari to ask him about.

Speaker 61 And he did.

Speaker 68 And he admitted to it.

Speaker 35 He admitted that he did kill Amanda Snell.

Speaker 32 Jailhouse confessions though can be a little tricky because how do you know if someone is telling the truth?

Speaker 26 Is this the kind of guy that would just brag about something that he didn't actually do to seem cool?

Speaker 43 So screwed up.

Speaker 29 Probably to seem intimidating.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 29 You know, you're surrounded by people with a criminal history. Yeah, that would be murky.

Speaker 26 Some of his details changed when he talked about it, but it was still close enough that it seemed very likely that he did kill her.

Speaker 39 He also confessed to the attacks in Arlington as well.

Speaker 98 So that was really helpful for investigators and prosecutors.

Speaker 66 And we'll get to his trial.

Speaker 29 Because he's awaiting trial. He hasn't yet been sentenced.
Wow.

Speaker 79 He hasn't been convicted of any of it yet.

Speaker 55 And he's just awaiting trial for the Arlington attacks, where he attempted to abduct that first woman and then attacked those other two women and one of them kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and attempted to kill her.

Speaker 5 It's terrible. So he's awaiting trial for all of that.

Speaker 72 And then while he's in prison, he also admits to Osama Elatari that he also murdered Amanda Snell the year before.

Speaker 26 But that's not all.

Speaker 26 He also tells Osama Elatari that he had committed another crime years before.

Speaker 29 Oh, so Osama was told by the people who were working with him with the wire to get maybe confessions, told him to ask about Amanda, but not this next case that ends up coming up.

Speaker 55 I couldn't get that information exactly, but that's my guess from what I've read, is that they wanted him to get a more detailed confession about the Arlington crimes that he had been charged with.

Speaker 39 Then they also had suspicions that he might be involved in Amanda Snell's murder.

Speaker 82 And I'm not sure if this other crime was on their radar at the time or not, because it seems like multiple things kind of happened at once.

Speaker 104 Okay.

Speaker 85 But George essentially tells Osama Elatari that he committed a double homicide back in 2005 when he was 16 16 years old.

Speaker 29 That's unimaginable.

Speaker 78 Yeah.

Speaker 4 At any age, but at 16.

Speaker 44 It's really horrible.

Speaker 58 He was living in Zion, Illinois at the time, and he admitted to murdering Laura Hobbs and Crystal Tobias, who were eight and nine years old.

Speaker 83 It's just horrible.

Speaker 44 It's so sad.

Speaker 58 They were brutally stabbed.

Speaker 98 And what happened with that case back in 2005, when the girls didn't come home, there was a search party sent out.

Speaker 72 And Laura's father, Jerry Hobbs, ended up finding their remains at a park. It was gruesome and horrible.

Speaker 40 And very quickly, he became a suspect and was questioned by police.

Speaker 30 He had a criminal record and had recently gotten out of prison.

Speaker 66 There was DNA at the crime scene.

Speaker 52 Ultimately, when they tested it, it did not match Jerry Hobbs.

Speaker 52 But I also read somewhere that there was some of his DNA on Lara, his daughter, which is kind of like, yeah, because they were living in the same house.

Speaker 24 You know, that could easily be possible.

Speaker 28 But Jerry Hobbs confessed to the crime.

Speaker 84 So when George is in prison telling Osama Elatari that he committed these crimes, He said, I was like, damn, I'm clean.

Speaker 64 I'm good.

Speaker 36 When he heard that Jerry Hobbs had confessed to the crime and he was bragging that he had gotten away with it, he was able to recount these murders in excruciating detail.

Speaker 45 And his story corresponded with the autopsies of the girls.

Speaker 69 So it was pretty clear that he did do this.

Speaker 72 Around this same time,

Speaker 106 the DNA from that crime scene was tested and it was matched to George Avila Torres.

Speaker 29 Oh my gosh. And the father of Laura Hobbs, Jerry Hobbes, he had been charged or sentenced.

Speaker 24 Well, he'd been charged and he was awaiting trial, but he had been in prison for five years.

Speaker 29 Oh my God.

Speaker 97 Yeah.

Speaker 29 He had been in jail five years while mourning the loss of his daughter and her friend and knowing he didn't do this. And that means that someone who did isn't doing their own time for it.

Speaker 35 Well, the guy who did, Georgia Villa Torres, went on to kill Amanda Snell and then to attack three more women.

Speaker 29 Oh, right, because he was only 16. We're going back into

Speaker 47 back in 2005.

Speaker 104 And then he went on to do maybe even more we don't know of.

Speaker 72 I mean, it's devastating.

Speaker 40 Devastating.

Speaker 58 So Jerry Hobbs eventually was exonerated.

Speaker 102 According to the Innocence Project, when he was released, he was told by officers that they were releasing him because they couldn't prove his guilt without reasonable doubt.

Speaker 56 People were really convinced that he had done this.

Speaker 40 He was dubbed Monster Hobbs by media outlets, and everyone just really thought that he did it, and he didn't.

Speaker 35 He did sign a confession back in 2005, but when you look at the circumstances in which he signed it, he had been out searching for his daughter for a long time.

Speaker 58 He was incredibly stressed.

Speaker 68 He hadn't been sleeping, then was immediately implicated by law enforcement.

Speaker 56 They brought him in for questioning and he was held for over 24 hours.

Speaker 60 And Hobbes described that time as grueling interrogation, at the end of which he signed a coerced confession, which he later recanted.

Speaker 49 And, you know, at the time, law enforcement thought he was guilty for a variety of reasons.

Speaker 25 They said, it was suspicious that he found the body of the girls.

Speaker 55 Like, how did he know where to look?

Speaker 26 Also, he had a criminal record.

Speaker 24 He had drug and domestic violence charges.

Speaker 81 And at one point, you know, when he lived back in Texas, he got into an argument with someone and apparently chased them around a trailer park with a chainsaw.

Speaker 29 Wow. Nobody should do that.

Speaker 45 Yeah.

Speaker 56 So it's not like anyone is saying, oh, this great guy over here.

Speaker 72 But it reminds me of something that Jennifer Thompson said when she said, it doesn't help anyone when the wrong person goes to prison for a crime.

Speaker 79 Yep.

Speaker 71 It doesn't matter if you think that they were a bad guy.

Speaker 60 You could look at Jerry Hobbes and say a lot of the stuff that he's done is bad, but he didn't murder his daughter or Crystal.

Speaker 25 And he had just recently gotten out of prison and joined his family in Zion, Illinois before all of this happened.

Speaker 61 So, you know, he was implicated and arrested and charged, but he was still in prison awaiting trial.

Speaker 51 And one of the things that is pretty wild is that within, I believe, the first year of him being in prison, the DNA that was collected from the crime scene was run against his DNA and it wasn't a match.

Speaker 29 So there's two DNA samples on Lara Hobbs. One is her father, Jerry Hobbs, another is an unknown male.
But on her friend, I'd be curious to know, was Jerry's DNA also on her friend somehow?

Speaker 29 Because it seems like if they found two samples and one sample, regardless of if they had a match yet, was on both, why are you not pressing harder on your own theory?

Speaker 96 Because they already had a theory, right?

Speaker 74 So yes, there was this other DNA sample that was on both of the girls' bodies that was an unknown person.

Speaker 105 As part of the signed confession that was given to Jerry Hobbes to sign, their theory was that he was mad at his daughter for being outside because she was grounded.

Speaker 70 So he came across them in the park and like went into a rage and started attacking his daughter and that Crystal, who was nine, had a knife on her that she pulled out to protect them.

Speaker 25 And that was the knife he used to kill them.

Speaker 51 I mean, it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 39 And also the knife was never found. Yeah.

Speaker 29 Did you find anything about Crystal's parents and if they accepted Jerry as, you know, they believed he had done this?

Speaker 64 I'm not sure.

Speaker 29 It was a long time ago.

Speaker 52 Yeah.

Speaker 24 But you have to imagine that when it came out that the wrong person had been arrested, that that was devastating for them.

Speaker 55 I'm sure.

Speaker 35 You know, it's just, it's not good for anyone when that happens.

Speaker 29 And you're leaning on law enforcement to find the person that committed these murders and to question them would be really hard.

Speaker 29 It would put you in a difficult position, maybe strain your relationship at a time when you want to be communicated with.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 50 In 2010.

Speaker 65 And this is why I'm not sure the exact timeline of events, because it's in 2010 when Osama Elatari wears a wire in prison and gets this confession from George Avila Torres.

Speaker 4 It's also in 2010 when Jerry Hobbs' lawyers lawyers finally secure a go-ahead to run that DNA through a national database.

Speaker 79 That hadn't happened yet.

Speaker 25 That has to make you question as well, like, how much did they really want to solve this?

Speaker 29 Right.

Speaker 29 If you have the ability to do that, don't you want to know also, even if you're totally convinced that Jerry Hobbs was there, he did it, if there's male DNA on both of these girls, was someone with him?

Speaker 29 And don't you want to know, doesn't that matter to you?

Speaker 25 yeah you would think that right so they finally run it and it is a match with george avila torres you know remember back when there was an investigation into amanda snell's murder he had agreed to give a dna sample so his dna again was taken when he was arrested for the arlington crime so it was in the system at that time it was a match in 2010 jerry hobbs was exonerated and eventually received a 7.75 million dollar settlement you know 7.75 million That's so much money.

Speaker 29 But when you think about the trauma of what this person went through, to lose their daughter and her friend in the most brutal way, and then to be targeted by law enforcement, wrongly having been in custody for this, and the court of public opinion can be extremely rough.

Speaker 26 Especially since he had a criminal record.

Speaker 35 I don't know. Sometimes I feel like there's just not as much sympathy for people.

Speaker 24 It doesn't matter.

Speaker 48 He still was imprisoned for five years for something he didn't do and blamed for his own daughter's murder.

Speaker 76 It's horrible. Yeah.

Speaker 29 I mean, regardless of someone's past, that's an incredible loss.

Speaker 84 So as far as George Avila Torres, in October of 2010, he was found guilty of rape and kidnapping charges and sentenced to five life sentences without parole, plus 168 years.

Speaker 25 And that was just for the Arlington crimes.

Speaker 49 In 2011, he was charged by federal authorities with the death of Amanda Snell.

Speaker 46 And in 2014, a federal jury backed by the jailhouse confession and Osama Elatari's testimony and the DNA evidence sentenced him to death for the Snell murder, making him the first person since 2007 to receive such a verdict.

Speaker 25 But actually just last year, his death sentence was commuted.

Speaker 49 So he's no longer on death row, but he will serve the rest of his life in prison.

Speaker 55 And then in 2018, he faced trial for the murders of Laura Hobbes and Crystal Tobias, the girls in Illinois, and he pled guilty.

Speaker 51 You know, it seemed like he pled guilty instead of going to trial.

Speaker 87 It was very clear that he did it.

Speaker 56 In exchange for his plea, he was given 100 years imprisonment and he was able to transfer out of a prison, which he didn't like being in at the time.

Speaker 56 I think one of the reasons they did this is that Osama Elatari's testimony was really helpful in getting a conviction for him with amanda snell's murder and it would have been really helpful with the double murder of laura hobbs and crystal tobias if that had gone to trial but unfortunately osama elatari was no longer alive at that point he pled guilty and he was sentenced for that as well so he's been convicted on all of those charges and you know at that sentencing hearing the justice told him you're a serial killer and we don't know if there are other crimes that are connected to him or not, but he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

Speaker 29 It has to be such a balance for the prosecutors who are working on a case like this one, because once you sentence someone to 100 years,

Speaker 29 I mean, a hundred-year sentence is like, even that's a small price to pay still for what he has done.

Speaker 29 But you also are then losing your leverage to find out about others and maybe close more cases that are out there that possibly he was involved with. And that has to be a difficult thing to reconcile.

Speaker 80 Well, couldn't he, in theory, still be charged?

Speaker 29 Yeah, but I would think he'd be way less inclined to give them any information. But I guess with the

Speaker 29 technology advancements with DNA, maybe they don't even need it.

Speaker 46 You're right.

Speaker 25 He would have no incentive because he's never going to get out of prison.

Speaker 29 He's never going to get out of prison and he shouldn't.

Speaker 78 Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 29 So Osama had passed away at this point. But after Osama brought them these confessions from Georgia Villa Torres, do we know was part of that agreement? And then you're getting me to a new location.

Speaker 32 I'm not 100% sure about that, but his prison sentence was cut in half, basically.

Speaker 76 So he was released from prison in 2014 and he served less than half of his sentence.

Speaker 35 So he was out by 2014.

Speaker 29 It's so mind-blowing that you could have someone like Georgia Vila Torres, who's committed these heinous murders and attempted murders in the same place as someone who's committing financial fraud because both are illegal, but they're very different.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 24 And I think it was maybe because they were in a jail.

Speaker 55 I don't know that that would have been their long-term holding place in prison. Okay.

Speaker 84 They were both happened to be in this jail at the same time.

Speaker 44 But yeah, I mean, it is wild. So to wrap up Osama Elatari's story, he got out of prison in 2014.

Speaker 98 And the majority of the money that he borrowed has never been recovered.

Speaker 103 They recovered a couple of million, but they were like, where's the rest of the money?

Speaker 35 So two years later, in February of 2016, his family reported him missing to authorities.

Speaker 102 And there was a search.

Speaker 38 They ended up finding his body in his Chevy truck in a rundown industrial area of Capitol Heights, Maryland.

Speaker 32 He had been shot and they were pretty sure that he had been murdered because his Rolex was missing.

Speaker 25 He was 37 years old.

Speaker 32 His family said that after he was released from prison, he had been operating a construction materials business and they also said it would be very strange that he wouldn't be wearing his Rolex.

Speaker 83 So that was suspicious.

Speaker 56 The Prince George County Police Department interviewed multiple people who had been in contact with him recently.

Speaker 54 And one of them was a man named Donald Clay.

Speaker 85 It came out that this guy, who they weren't even sure how he he was connected to Osama Elatari, but they knew that he knew him.

Speaker 104 And it seems like Donald Clay had become convinced that Osama had stashed millions of dollars in an offshore account and then had concocted this plan to get him to give him the money.

Speaker 72 So Donald Clay created his own offshore bank account.

Speaker 71 then lured Osama Elatari to this empty industrial area of Capitol Heights, Maryland on February 11th, 2016, where he was waiting with two armed men, and they basically kidnapped Osama Elatari, took him into an abandoned house and attempted to coerce him into transferring the money.

Speaker 55 The police aren't really sure, like maybe he didn't have money, maybe he did and he refused to transfer it, but somewhere along the way, the plan went awry and they ended up killing him.

Speaker 107 So all three men were arrested and charged.

Speaker 56 I don't know if if they know for sure, but they're pretty sure that this was like an independent plan, that these guys knew Osama Elatari.

Speaker 51 They had heard that he had taken money from a bank.

Speaker 79 Everybody in the community really knew that.

Speaker 24 But it is interesting to note that,

Speaker 81 you know, years before in a letter to the judge who ordered his early release, Osama Elatari wrote that he was nervous about George Avila Torres potentially taking revenge on him.

Speaker 68 He said, he told me about plans to to eliminate witnesses in his upcoming trial based on his past.

Speaker 24 I knew he would not hesitate to kill me, but I continued to assist anyway because I knew it was the right thing to do.

Speaker 32 At this point, Osama Elatari had been a witness in the case to convict Georgia Vila Torres of Amanda Snell's murder, but the case and the trial for the double murder of the girls hadn't taken place yet.

Speaker 43 So, you know, you have to wonder, but I wasn't able to find anything to connect that.

Speaker 29 Okay. So as far as we know, Donald Clay had no connection to Georgia Vila Torres, just an associate who thought he could get in on some of this money.
Yeah.

Speaker 29 So they never found it and there's millions and millions of dollars.

Speaker 76 Yep.

Speaker 29 And Donald didn't get any of it. His plan didn't work and he committed a horrific murder.
And the money is still hidden.

Speaker 72 So, you know, kind of a winding story.

Speaker 70 I thought it was really interesting how the dots all connected.

Speaker 25 Probably people have heard of George Avila Torres potentially at this point because he is a serial killer.

Speaker 25 But I just really thought that it was interesting the way that Osama Elatari's story connected with his.

Speaker 25 And he was in prison for stealing millions of dollars, but then also helped to secure a conviction for a serial killer.

Speaker 72 Whether or not he did it for his own gain or for the greater good, you know, you could debate that.

Speaker 29 But Yeah, I mean, I think it's something we come back to a lot in our interviews where we hear these heavy stories and most people have good and bad.

Speaker 29 And maybe he did feel it was the right thing to do in addition to knowing it would help him. And it sounds like Osama El-Atari.

Speaker 29 committed this financial fraud and he sentenced to 12 years, but he found a way to lessen his sentence that I think he's right. It was the right thing to do.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 45 So that is the story that I brought to tell you today.

Speaker 29 That story had so many moving parts and I'm surprised I hadn't heard more about it. And it sounds like you came across a helpful FBI affidavit, but otherwise people wouldn't talk to you either.

Speaker 29 And I guess it's just one of those things.

Speaker 96 Yeah.

Speaker 29 Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with an interview.

Speaker 29 If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenife at exactlyrightmedia.com, or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.

Speaker 29 This has been an Exactly Right Production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith, and me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexa Samorosi.

Speaker 108 This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.

Speaker 29 Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Speaker 108 Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Speaker 29 Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Speaker 108 Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

Speaker 10 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 8 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 9 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved, so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 19 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 20 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 110 So usually on OK Storytime, our audience will send in their relationship problems and the OK Storytime squad gives some good advice goofly.

Speaker 111 But today, we're not giving out our usual advice.

Speaker 110 Our producer Riley says we're giving something else.

Speaker 111 So what are we doing today, Riley?

Speaker 11 They were playing a little game. Oh, well,

Speaker 10 we play a little game, says the man.

Speaker 112 I bought special gifts for you guys from eBay. Each one picked with one of you in mind.
Yeah, Dakota, if you want to guess.

Speaker 3 All right, there is a gift at my feet.

Speaker 10 Open that thing. And now it is in my hands.

Speaker 11 Oh,

Speaker 110 I feel like it's got to be our resident gamer keyboard.

Speaker 10 This is the rectangle of childhood.

Speaker 17 It's a portable game console.

Speaker 18 I used to have this as a kid.

Speaker 17 This game console, I used to play all the time.

Speaker 3 And you know, when your mom came into the room when you were a kid, and like you're pretending to sleep.

Speaker 11 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Riley, what an thoughtful gift.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 10 Thank you so much.

Speaker 11 Riley, you're crushing it.

Speaker 17 But we have one more gift. Yeah, you got another one.

Speaker 11 Let's open it. Boom.
Oh, camera. Yeah.
An old-timey camera.

Speaker 10 That's right. Classic.
This is awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 110 Because you know how I love to take pictures of my travels.

Speaker 10 Yeah, you're always somewhere.

Speaker 110 Whether it's in Kyrgyzstan with some nomad or just New York, you know, with a nice little piece of trash or a wrap.

Speaker 11 Nice little headset. I'm taking pictures with the birds.

Speaker 10 So, Riley, you got all this from eBay?

Speaker 112 Dude, eBay. It was really fun finding it with you guys.
Like, I had very specific things for each one of you.

Speaker 22 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 11 It was all there.

Speaker 112 Thanks, Riley, and thank you, eBay. and guys shop ebay for millions of finds each with a story ebay things people love

Speaker 92 she'd throw things wander and started hoarding mom's alzheimer's was already so hard but then we found out she had something called agitation that may happen with dementia due to alzheimer's disease and that was a different kind of difficult so we asked her doctor for more help seeing symptoms like these in a loved one it could be time to ask their doctor about rexulti rexpiprazole 2 milligrams, the only FDA-approved treatment proven to reduce the symptoms of this condition.

Speaker 113 Rexulte should not be used as an as-needed treatment.

Speaker 113 Elderly people with dementia-related psychosis have increased risk of death or stroke, report fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, which can be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent.

Speaker 113 High blood sugar can lead to coma or death. Weight gain, increased cholesterol, unusual urges, dizziness on standing, falls, seizures, trouble swallowing, or sleepiness may occur.

Speaker 113 Learn more about these and other side effects at Rexulte.com.

Speaker 18 Tap ad for PI.

Speaker 92 I'm glad her doctor recommended Rexulti.

Speaker 113 Talk to your loved one's doctor. Moments matter.