The Knife: Off Record – 106

This is exactly right.

This is Danielle Fischl from Pod Meets World.

Okay, so Amazon Prime is the easiest and fastest way to get anything delivered, but there's so much more.

Whatever you love, that's what Prime is.

Prime helps you get more out of your passions and even discover new ones.

My kids have recently gotten to the age where we can no longer hide video games from them.

I know, Pandora's box has opened.

opened.

Well, with Prime, I not only get the games they want fast and easy, I get suggestions for what other games might be perfect for them.

And with access to Prime Gaming, there are free PC games every month just waiting for them.

From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime.

Visit amazon.com slash Prime to get more out of whatever you're into.

Is your AI built for everyone?

Or is it built to work with the tools your business relies on?

IBM's AI agents are tailored to your business and can easily integrate with the tools you're already using.

So they can work across your business, not just some parts of it.

Get started with AI agents at IBM.com.

The AI built for business.

IBM.

Kevin and Rachel and Peanut M ⁇ Ms and an eight-hour road trip.

And Rachel's new favorite audiobook, The Cerulean Empress, Scoundrel's Inferno.

And Florian, the reckless yet charming scoundrel from said audiobook.

And his pecs glistened in the moonlight.

And Kevin, feeling weird because of all the talk about pecs, and Rachel handing him peanut MMs to keep him quiet.

Uh, Kevin, I can't hear.

Yellow, we're keeping it PG-13.

MMs, it's more fun together.

This story contains adult content and language.

Listener discretion is advised.

Hello and welcome.

This is The Knife Off Record.

I'm Patia Eaton.

And I'm Hannah Smith.

Today we're going to talk about a fraud case that turned into a much bigger story than it appeared at face value.

But first, we're going to discuss a book that Patia and I both read and love and we think you will love as well.

We read it and we listened.

We did.

Which one did we do?

I actually listened.

I listened.

Yeah, I didn't read that.

Does that count as reading?

I don't know.

My mom's a librarian, so I'm going to tell her I read it.

Yeah, I think it counts.

The book is called There Is No Ethan, How Three Women Uncovered America's Biggest Catfish by Anna Akbari.

And the basic synopsis is that Anna takes us through an experience she had meeting this man named Ethan Schuman on an online dating platform, OKCupid, in late 2010.

I think of this period of time as like there were so many catfishing experiences happening.

We didn't really know yet to be aware of this or to be wary of it.

And I feel like I've just listened to and heard so many stories of people being conned around this time period.

It was such a new moment for online dating.

I actually met my husband online in 2013 and it was still so new that I remember when people would ask us how we met we would sort of dodge the question because it was almost like embarrassing i know i was actually just thinking about that the other day it feels like not that long ago but it was so unusual back then and it was i remember i remember meeting people who had who had said we met online and i was like oh that's kind of cool and weird and interesting and what's wrong with you yeah because we met online when you couldn't even log into the app on your phone you were getting on your computer right yeah and i think this was the same with this story with uh there is no ethan she's logging into the computer okay cupid around this time so this book is part anna talking about her personal experience being scammed and then it's also part investigative it really feels like a podcast except it's a book It's a book.

And that means we read it, whether or not we listened or read it.

And yeah, listening to it and putting yourself back in that place of wanting to meet someone and being really hopeful when you have chemistry, which we all know can exist digitally, but being on the forefront of that and not knowing how to level your own expectations accordingly.

Yeah.

And when you want something so badly, it's really easy to sort of make excuses.

I spent many years on the online dating platforms and I can tell you it is harrowing at times.

I'm quite depressed.

It's gotten so much worse.

I thought you were going to say gotten so much better.

No, I was like, no, it has not.

No one's out there saying, this is such a great experience.

I love dating online.

But it is the modern way.

I loved listening to this book because it felt like I was listening to an extended podcast that I had hours of, and that is a joy.

They have an actor do the voice of Ethan, which I thought was good.

I thought they did a good job and it was really engaging.

And then Ana goes on to talk about how she connects with these other women who are also victims of the same person.

And it really pays off.

So listen to the very end because unlike some stories where you don't get answers, you do get answers here, which is, you know, enticing.

These victims get all of the answers.

And, well, I guess, you know,

all compared to maybe many other victims of catfishing frauds, but the reveal is mind-blowing.

It truly is someone you would never expect, which as you're rethinking about the story that you listened to is like, she could never have anticipated the outcome of this.

You know, there are red flags in a lot of relationships, and maybe some people's minds take it to a worst case scenario.

I don't even think anyone could have anticipated where this was going.

Yeah, I agree.

It's a great listen.

We highly recommend it.

Thrilling all the way through.

And I actually have another recommendation.

Oh, Patia.

Okay.

Coming in with two recommendations.

Two recommendations today.

This one is The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

Okay.

I've not heard of this.

All right.

So this is about a woman named Caitlin who's.

Is this a podcast?

This is a podcast.

Okay.

This is a podcast, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

And it's about a young woman named Caitlin who reaches out to doulas and both in person and virtually utilizes their services over and over and over again

through extreme situations like pregnancy loss, rape, and medical events like a coma.

You know, they reveal pretty early on not everything is as it seems, but the story is just a world I knew nothing about.

Doulas, like this online community of people that you can reach out to for birth support no matter where you're at in your pregnancy.

And, you know, this is a line of work you get into if you're super passionate about it.

And you would never imagine someone taking advantage.

So these doulas were having very intimate experiences with someone that they were trying to help who was misleading them in a major way.

And it just blew my mind.

The extent this person went to to mislead people was so egregious.

And, you know, there's a reveal at the end of someone very close to her that maybe knew what was happening that I found especially surprising.

It's a great listen.

The story moves really quickly.

And there was a lot I didn't know about that world that I think I have a much better understanding of now.

Wow, that sounds really great.

I'll definitely check that out.

Yeah.

So you didn't have a doula.

I didn't have a doula.

No, I didn't know what they were.

I

did it the old-fashioned way with a lot of drugs.

Great.

However you choose to do it is great.

Yes.

I mean, we've talked a lot about like medical fraud and stories in that world, but I never heard about someone conning a doula before.

So yeah, that's definitely intriguing.

Yeah.

I mean, you're in a way seeking, it's not.

medical support.

Like these people are not doctors, but I think birth is maybe referred to as a a routine medical event or a routine health event.

And it does surprise me that this sort of in-between is there for these moments that are very close to birth.

Thanks for the recommendation.

I always love a good podcast recommendation, so I will check it out.

Yeah.

Is your AI built for everyone?

Or is it built to work with your business's data?

IBM helps you integrate and govern unstructured data wherever it lives.

so your business can have more accurate ai

instead of just more of it

get your data ready for ai at ibm.com the ai built for business ibm

we've all heard the stories missing persons double lives suspicious basements But here's one mystery you don't need in your life.

Why can't my kid learn to ride a bike?

For a lot of families, it turns into a saga.

Meltdowns in the driveway, scraped knees, and frustrated parents googling how to teach a kid to ride a bike without losing your mind.

That's where Guardian Bikes comes in.

Their bikes are lightweight, low to the ground, and built to help kids find their balance fast.

Most are riding confidently in just one day.

No training wheels, no tears, just high fives and I did it moments.

It's everything learning to ride should be.

Simple, smooth, and actually fun.

So skip the struggle and start with a bike that's made to make it easy.

Guardian Bikes.

Go to GuardianBikes.com.

You'll save hundreds when comparing Guardian to its competitors.

Plus, get a free bike lock and pump, a $50 value with your purchase when you join their newsletter.

That's GuardianBikes.com.

Kevin and Rachel and Peanut M ⁇ M's and an eight-hour road trip and Rachel's new favorite audiobook, The Cerulean Empress, Scoundrel's Inferno.

And Florian, the reckless yet charming scoundrel from said audiobook.

And his pecs glistened in the moonlight.

And Kevin feeling weird because of all the talk about pecs.

And Rachel handing him peanut MMs to keep him quiet.

Uh, Kevin, I can't hear.

Yellow, we're keeping it PG-13.

MMs, it's more fun together.

Okay,

so.

I have a story to tell you today,

and it's kind of in multiple parts.

I thought of this story recently because last week we had a great interview with Jennifer Thompson.

If you haven't heard that yet, go check it out.

It made me think back to this story because wrongful conviction does play a role.

So I wanted to talk to you about it today.

This is a story that I heard about months and months and months ago.

I don't know, a year ago.

And I have been intrigued by it.

It kind of falls into that category of I made some calls and wasn't able to find anyone to do an interview for this story.

Yeah, I remember when you initially found the story and you told me just a little bit about it.

But like you said, you made some calls and we had kind of moved on.

So I'm really excited to hear.

Okay, so the first part of this story takes place in Virginia.

And most of the information I'm getting here is from an FBI affidavit, as well as an article from Washington City paper called King of Ashburn.

That is a great article written in 2016.

This is a story about a man named Osama El-Atari.

He grew up in Virginia in the 80s and 90s in a middle-class family and then became this notable restaurant owner in Ashburn, Virginia.

By the early 2000s, he was pretty well known amongst his community and he owned multiple restaurants, including Lucky's, a sports theater and grill.

I never heard the term sports theater before, but I think it's just like a sports bar.

A sports theater.

Have you heard that before?

Never.

And then two locations of a place called the Original Steakhouse and Sports Theater.

Also a sports theater.

Are they performing the sports?

The original steakhouse and sports theater is described as half booth restaurant and half sports bar.

I love a booth.

I love a booth too.

Any restaurant with a booth, I'm in.

I'm in.

I don't even care what they're serving.

No, they're great.

They corral toddlers.

Oh, yeah.

That is another great use.

Huge selling point for me.

Okay.

It's also noted that his family owned multiple Buffalo Wing factory locations.

So it seemed like the restaurant business was kind of the family business.

And then he got into it.

And by all accounts, he was really successful.

He was also a very flashy guy.

He loved a good sports car.

Around 2008, he owned two Lamborghinis, two Ferraris, and a Rolls-Royce Phantom, which I looked that up because I know nothing about cars.

A Rolls-Royce Phantom today can be as much as like $400,000 to $500,000.

So many, many, many of my current car, which is easily the nicest I've ever had, and many, many more of the Prius C I had for 12 years before this.

Yeah, that's well over a million dollars in cars, what he had.

And at this point, he owned three restaurants, which seemed to be busy, but you have to kind of wonder, okay, well, how much money are you really making here?

According to the Washington City Paper article, he bought a mansion that had seven bathrooms that was 7,590 square feet for $4.5 million.

And then he also bought a football jersey at a charity auction for $25,000.

It was the jersey of NFL player Sean Taylor, who actually was murdered in his home in 2007.

So, you know, he was definitely spending money.

His friends and family said that he spent money in a charitable way mostly.

He bought things for people around him.

He sponsored local sports teams.

He was seen as a very generous person and was upstanding, this well-to-do guy in his community.

He did get into some trouble with the law when it comes to driving.

He got a lot of traffic tickets for driving his cars too fast for speeding.

Well, you have to wonder, you have all these sports cars.

Where are you going?

Yeah.

I mean, if you have them, you think you would want to drive them.

Yeah.

I mean, mine would have, you know, I would be going to the grocery store and back.

Just as fast as you can.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he did have traffic violations.

He did a short stint in jail even for a traffic violation.

But other than that, he seemed to be on the straight and narrow.

But then he started to take out bank loans.

The first one is in December of 2007.

He secured a $5 million loan from United Bank.

And the purpose stated on his loan application was to acquire two more original steakhouse locations in Maryland.

He provided two cash value life insurance policies to the bank as collateral for this loan.

And each of those was valued at over $3 million.

But what didn't come out till later was that, you know, he would not have been able to secure this loan if it weren't for someone at the bank.

The assistant vice president of United Bank saw these life insurance policies and immediately flagged that they were fake.

And instead of flagging this to the bank, he met up at a Starbucks with Osama Elatari and essentially said, I want in on this.

Like, I know you're up to something.

Yeah, something is happening here.

I don't really think that you're going to use this money for these restaurants.

And basically said, I want in on your scheme.

Well, and then if you're Osama, what choice do you have but to agree?

Because you're up to something and now this person at the bank knows.

That's a great point.

Yeah.

So this assistant vice president of the bank created a fake accountant, Gordon Leipzig.

I don't know if I'm saying that right.

Well, it doesn't matter.

He's fake, but he's a fake person that he created and fixed the life insurance policies to make them look convincing.

And then was able, Osama was able to get this loan in exchange.

He gave him a $150,000 kickback.

Classic.

Yes.

And he was able to use these doctored life insurance policies to then go to other banks and get additional loans.

So he continued to get loans.

He also continued to get loans from a United Bank in a total of $17 million.

And the guy from the Starbucks meetup is in on these other loan acquisitions.

I don't know if he is.

All I could find was that he was in on that first one and got that kickback.

Okay.

But at this point then, Osama already had the faked documents that were convincing and looked real.

So he could use those to get other loans.

And from the investigation, it looks like he started to spend the money pretty immediately on cars, as well as the home that he bought.

And then it became this like catch-up game where he wasn't able to pay back these loans.

So then he started to get more loans.

And you can sort of get the feeling that the scam can go for a certain amount of time, but there's going to be an end point where he's not able to pay anything back.

Right.

Is he thinking he'll just forever go make fake life insurance policies to get loans?

This is the big question I have with every fraud story we do is what is the end goal?

It's like, what is your plan?

There is no plan.

Yeah.

You live large and you have fun.

And then at some point, it has to stop, right?

I want to sleep that well at night.

Me too.

So, you know, of course, things are going to come to a head.

By early 2009, he'd taken loans out from seven different banks in a total of around $70 million.

And okay, I would love to have $70 million,

but what are you doing with it?

It's such a large amount of money.

Yeah.

We were just talking about what tabs we needed to close on our computers, and mine is always old Navy.

Yeah, I mean, you could get a lot of shirts for that percent of the 70 million.

So he's got a lot of money.

The banks are catching on and they're demanding their money back.

And in May of 2009, United Bank realizes that the life insurance documents were faked.

And authorities show up to Osama's house and he is not there.

He has fled.

They did find 18 big screen televisions.

Okay, I do want to come back to the 18 televisions because I have so many questions.

But is United Bank remind me the first bank he secured the loan from?

Yes.

And that is...

the bank where we know someone else at the bank knew about it.

Yeah, the assistant vice president.

I don't know if he was still at the bank

at that time.

He will come back into this later 18 big screen televisions and i don't quite recall but i'm guessing they were those enormous box televisions at that time yeah because 2009 they're not like as thin as they are now they're not the frame tvs no no actually i don't even think we call them big screens anymore right wow so okay 18 of them so then he goes on the run and there's eight months where he's unaccounted for he's on the run and no one knows exactly where he went At one point, investigators in Brazil supposedly found a death certificate for him and a passport.

But when it was looked into further, it was clear that that wasn't real and he'd actually bribed someone in Brazil to try to fake his death.

In June of 2009, he was charged in abstentia with bank fraud.

So they still didn't know where he was, but it was clear he'd done this.

He's charged.

And then in January of 2010, he was found in Texas at a Ferrari dealership.

Oh my gosh.

A true like car shopping compulsion.

Yeah, I mean, he loved cars.

I just wonder, wouldn't he want to be a little more incognito?

Yeah, I don't know.

It's strange, but that's where he was found.

It also makes you wonder about the money, you know?

Like, is there money?

Where did he put it?

Like, is he physically carrying around all that cash?

Surely not.

Surely not.

But how's he?

Yeah, how's he buying the car?

So in April of 2010, he pled guilty to three counts of bank fraud and one count of money laundering.

And he was sentenced to 12 years in prison, followed by five years of supervised release and was sent to serve time at the Arlington County jail.

So this brings us to the second part of the story.

Is your AI built for everyone?

Or is it built to work with your business's data?

IBM helps you integrate and govern unstructured data wherever it lives.

So your business can have more accurate AI

instead of just more of it.

Get your data ready for AI at IBM.com.

The AI Built for Business.

IBM.

We've all heard the stories.

Missing persons, double lives, suspicious basements.

But here's one mystery you don't need in your life.

Why can't my kid learn to ride a bike?

For a lot of families, it turns into a saga.

Meltdowns in the driveway, scraped knees, and frustrated parents googling how to teach a kid to ride a bike without losing your mind.

That's where Guardian Bikes comes in.

Their bikes are lightweight, low to the ground, and built to help kids find their balance fast.

Most are riding confidently in just one day.

No training wheels, no tears, just high fives and I did it moments.

It's everything learning to ride should be, simple, smooth, and actually fun.

So skip the struggle and start with a bike that's made to make it easy.

Guardian Bikes.

Go to GuardianBikes.com.

You'll save hundreds when comparing Guardian to its competitors.

Plus, get a free bike lock and pump, a $50 value with your purchase when you join their newsletter.

That's guardianbikes.com.

If you haven't heard about Next Step Live Music, TikTok's biggest music talent show, you're seriously missing out.

TikTok Live and iHeartRadio are teaming up to find the next wave of music stars.

And they're performing live only on TikTok.

From August 25th to 29th, watch the semifinalists give it everything they've got in real time.

This is your chance to support your favorite artists, discover the next superstars, and help them secure a spot on the big stage at LA's legendary iHeartRadio Theater.

Follow at TikTok Live underscore US and tune in to every performance, every battle, and every behind the scenes moment.

Your front row seat is just one attap away.

The semifinals start on the 25th.

At TikTok Live underscore US on TikTok.

Almost as soon as he's arrested, he starts trying to strike deals.

He immediately turns in the United Bank Assistant Vice President.

Oh my gosh.

Who had helped him doctor the life life insurance policies.

Okay.

He's like, if I'm going down, you're going down with me.

Yeah.

And once he's serving time, he seems to be on alert for any like jailhouse confessions that he can hear.

He tells authorities at one point that he overheard this guy claiming to be involved in a terrorist smuggling operation.

He provides details to them.

That one didn't end up leading to an arrest, but it sets the scene that he is very clearly someone someone who has, you know, notified law enforcement authorities that he is available.

Oh, I see.

So he's listening, like, what can I give them in exchange for maybe some leniency?

Yeah.

So he's on the lookout.

He's on the lookout.

He's like, if I can basically go undercover, I'm a prisoner here, but if there's anyone you're trying to get information out of, I'm your guy.

Like, I'll do whatever.

I'll wear a wire.

If it can get me out of prison sooner.

I don't know that I would think to do this, but if I did, I would would try.

You would try.

I would do anything.

Yeah.

You know, it could be a dangerous thing to do, but this is what he does.

And pretty soon he gets the chance to do it.

He ends up in a cell next to George Avila Torres.

And people might recognize that name because he is now considered to be a serial killer.

I want to note that his name is spelled Jorge.

I looked this up because people kept calling him George.

And he said that that he goes by both Jorge and George.

At one point, an officer asked him which he preferred and he said George.

It sounds like he went by Jorge with his family.

So I'm going to call him George, but that is the situation with his name.

Okay.

So

he is also in Arlington County Jail, awaiting trial.

In 2010, George Avila Torres was arrested and charged with crimes committed in Arlington.

The first one, on February 10th, 2010, he attempted to abduct and assault a 26-year-old woman who is unnamed in court documents.

She was walking to her boyfriend's house.

He came up behind her, grabbed her jacket, and kind of flashed that he was holding a gun.

They had a struggle and she just said, you know, do you want my money?

Take my purse.

But he kept pulling her toward a tan Dodge Durango.

She was actually able to sort of shove her purse toward him and leave it and run away and escape from him.

She had a friend who lived a couple houses down.

And so she just ran into her friend's house.

They immediately called the police and she made a report.

She reported what he looked like.

She had clocked his vehicle as well.

That is terrifying.

So scary.

So then, you know, the police started to search.

They didn't find anyone immediately and they never found her purse.

Two weeks later, close by, two female graduate students who are also unnamed in the court documents were walking to one of their homes when he emerged from behind a parked car.

And it was the same thing, kind of.

He immediately flashed that he had a gun.

He demanded their wallets.

They said they didn't have them on them.

So he forced them to go into the house.

He tied them up.

One of them was able to kind of get loose and make a call to 911 with her cell phone.

And this is 2010 again.

So like the cell phone situation is different than we have now.

He then got her phone, threw it against the wall and smashed it, and then took one of these women outside into his vehicle, the same tan Dodge Durango, and drove her to a remote area.

He sexually assaulted her, then tied a scarf around her neck and attempted to kill her.

She lost consciousness, but then woke up outside in the snow and was alive.

And a passerby stopped and found her.

She immediately made a police report.

And based on her description of him, as well as the vehicle, law enforcement pretty quickly realized this was the same person who had just tried to attack a woman two weeks prior.

Arlington County Police had also made a note that a few days before, they had observed this guy in the same type of vehicle out like stalking women.

He looked really suspicious and it was Georgia Vila Torres.

They were able to locate him pretty quickly and arrested him on February 27th, 2010 at Joint Base Meyer-Henderson Hall, which is a residence hall on a military base.

He was a Marine at the time.

They searched his vehicle and found the school ID of the woman that he attempted to murder.

And when they searched his barracks, they found a gun and incriminating content on his computer that was sexually violent.

Wow.

So they found him based on the witness identification of him and of his car.

Yes.

Yeah.

They didn't have a name or anything, but they must have had, maybe they're just searching like a tan, what was it, a Bronco?

Dodge Durango.

A Dodge Durango.

A tan Dodge Durango.

And that's how they found him.

Yeah.

How old was he?

He was in his early 20s.

I think he was 21 at the time.

Wow.

Yeah.

They did take DNA samples from him.

He was charged and was awaiting trial at the time when he encounters Osama El-Atari in prison.

They are in cells next to each other.

And it's unclear to me exactly why they wanted him to wear a wire.

I believe that investigators wondered if he was connected to a third murder.

And they also just wanted more evidence to be able to, you know, get a clean conviction.

So Osama Elatari agreed.

He told investigators he thought that this guy was a monster.

He had already encountered him and had a really low opinion of him.

But he was like, great, I'll do it.

I'll wear a wire and I'll befriend this guy.

Osama must be really good at keeping his cool.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, the guy that was able to convince banks to give him $70 million in

a smooth talker.

Yeah.

You know,

gets people to trust him.

Wow.

You also are like, if anyone finds out that I'm wearing a wire, I will never live it down here.

This guy is clearly like a violent, you know, dangerous person or has done violent and dangerous things.

So yeah, you have to assume it would be very nerve-wracking to wear a wire and then try to get him to confess.

Well, and because Osama had years left on his sentence.

So it's not like, well, I'm going to be out of here in six months anyway if I get caught.

Yes, exactly.

So he befriended George Avila Torres and he started by flattering him, just telling him that he was so impressed with his crimes.

And this worked.

Wow.

You know, he was like, you're such a genius.

If you wrote a book about everything you did, I would read it.

Oh my gosh.

And it works.

So then George avila torres starts saying well they don't even know half of it and i've done so much more he admits that he's not just a rapist and a kidnapper but he's also a murderer and he's proud of this oh so proud he's like gloating yeah that has to be so hard for someone to listen to yeah totally screwed up and in order to get him to keep talking he's having to be like that's so cool like it's amazing that you got away with it elatari ends up getting avila tores saying on tape that he killed Navy Petty Officer Amanda Snell in 2009.

She was 20 years old and also stationed at Joint Base Meyer Henderson Hall just down the dorm hall from him.

And at this point in Amanda's case, was she disappeared or did they know that she had been a victim of foul play?

So her murder was unsolved.

But they knew that she had been murdered.

Yes, she was found dead in her room.

Her cause of death after an autopsy was determined to be asphyxiation.

And it was just clear based on the scene and investigators didn't have questions.

They knew that there was foul play involved.

There had actually been an investigation on the military base at the time and tons of people were questioned, including George Avila Torres.

And he agreed to the questioning at the time.

He allowed his room to be searched.

He even provided a DNA sample.

Be interesting to know if he was polygraphed.

Yeah.

But at the time, for whatever reason, I wasn't able to find out.

They weren't able to connect him to it.

But then, you know, once he was arrested for these other violent and sexually violent crimes, they started to look at him again, especially because he was, you know, in such close proximity to where Amanda lived.

Right.

He confessed on tape.

Now, that gets a little tricky because with jailhouse confessions, you don't always know if they're true.

You know, was he the kind of guy who would just brag about something?

When you say he confessed on tape, you're talking about to Osama.

Yes.

Right.

No one confessed during their investigation and a bunch of questioning.

So he denied it when he was questioned initially, in the initial investigation, and was not charged or arrested or anything.

But once he was in prison, for the crimes he committed in Arlington, the attack and kidnapping and attempted murder, they started to look at him again because he literally like lived down the hall from Amanda.

I believe that this is why one of the things that they wanted Osama Elatari to ask him about.

And he did.

And he admitted to it.

He admitted that he did kill Amanda Snell.

Jailhouse confessions, though, can be a little tricky because how do you know if someone is telling the truth?

Is this the kind of guy that would just brag about something that he didn't actually do to seem cool?

So screwed up by the money.

Probably to seem intimidating.

Yeah.

You know, you're surrounded by people with a criminal history.

Yeah, that would be murky.

Some of his details changed when he talked about it, but it was still close enough that it seemed very likely that he did kill her.

He also confessed to the attacks in Arlington as well.

So that was really helpful for investigators and prosecutors.

And we'll get to his trial.

Oh, because he's awaiting trial.

He hasn't yet been sentenced.

Wow.

He hasn't been convicted of any of it yet.

And he's just awaiting trial for the Arlington attacks, where he attempted to abduct that first woman and then attacked those other two women.

And one of them kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and attempted to kill her.

It's terrible.

So he's awaiting trial for all of that.

And then while he's in prison, he also admits to Osama Elatari that he also murdered Amanda Snell the year before.

But that's not all.

He also tells Osama Elatari that he had committed another crime years before.

Oh, so Osama was told by the people who were working with him with The Wire to get maybe confessions, told him to ask about Amanda, but not this next case that ends up coming up.

I couldn't get that information exactly, but that's my guess from what I've read: is that they wanted him to get a more detailed confession about the Arlington crimes that he had been charged with.

Then they also had suspicions that he might be involved in Amanda Snell's murder.

And I'm not sure if this other crime was on their radar at the time or not, because it seems like multiple things kind of happened at once.

Okay.

But George essentially tells Osama Elatari that he committed a double homicide back in in 2005 when he was 16 years old.

That's unimaginable.

Yeah.

At any age, but at 16.

It's really horrible.

He was living in Zion, Illinois at the time, and he

admitted to murdering Lara Hobbs and Crystal Tobias, who were eight and nine years old.

It's just horrible.

It's so sad.

They were brutally stabbed.

And what happened with that case back in 2005, when the girls didn't come home, there was a search party sent out.

And Laura's father, Jerry Hobbs, ended up finding their remains at a park.

It was gruesome and horrible.

And very quickly, he became a suspect and was questioned by police.

He had a criminal record.

and had recently gotten out of prison.

There was DNA at the crime scene.

Ultimately, when they tested it, it did not match Jerry Hobbs.

But I also read somewhere that there was some of his DNA on Laura, his daughter, which is kind of like, yeah, because they were living in the same house.

You know, that could easily be possible.

But Jerry Hobbs confessed to the crime.

So when George is in prison telling Osama Elatari that he committed these crimes,

He said, I was like, damn, I'm clean.

I'm good.

When he heard that Jerry Hobbs had confessed to the crime and he was bragging that he had gotten away with it, he was able to recount these murders in excruciating detail.

And his story corresponded with the autopsies of the girls.

So it was pretty clear that he did do this.

Around this same time,

the DNA from that crime scene was tested and it was matched to George Avila Torres.

Oh my gosh.

And the father of Lara Hobbs, Jerry Hobbes, he had been charged or sentenced.

Well, he'd been charged and he was awaiting trial, but he had been in prison for five years.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

He had been in jail five years while mourning the loss of his daughter and her friend and knowing he didn't do this.

And that means that someone who did isn't doing their own time for it well the guy who did georgia vila torus went on to kill amanda snell and then to attack three more women oh right because he was only 16 we're going back in time yeah yeah so he wasn't caught like back in 2005 and then he went on to do maybe even more we don't know of i mean it's devastating devastating so Jerry Hobbs eventually was exonerated.

According to the Innocence Project, when he was released, he was told by officers that they were releasing him because they couldn't prove his guilt without reasonable doubt.

People were really convinced that he had done this.

He was dubbed Monster Hobbes by media outlets, and everyone just really thought that he did it, and he didn't.

He did sign a confession back in 2005, but when you look at the circumstances in which he signed it, he had been out searching for his daughter for a long time.

He was incredibly stressed.

He hadn't been sleeping.

Then was immediately implicated by law enforcement.

They brought him in for questioning and he was held for over 24 hours.

And Hobbes described that time as grueling interrogation, at the end of which he signed a coerced confession, which he later recanted.

And, you know, at the time, law enforcement thought he was guilty for a variety of reasons.

They said, It was suspicious that he found the body of the girls.

Like, how did he know where to look?

Also, he had a criminal record.

He had drug and domestic violence charges.

And at one point, you know, when he lived back in Texas, he got into an argument with someone and apparently chased them around a trailer park with a chainsaw.

Wow.

Nobody should do that.

Yeah.

So it's not like anyone is saying, oh, this great guy over here.

But it reminds me of something that Jennifer Thompson said when she said, it doesn't help anyone when the wrong person goes to prison for a crime.

Yep.

It doesn't matter if you think that they were a bad guy.

You could look at Jerry Hobbes and say a lot of the stuff that he's done is bad, but he didn't murder his daughter or Crystal.

And he had just recently gotten out of prison and joined his family in Zion, Illinois before all of this happened.

So, you know, he was implicated and arrested and charged, but he was still in prison awaiting trial.

And one of the things that is pretty wild is that within, I believe, the first year of him being in prison, the DNA that was collected from the crime scene was run against his DNA and it wasn't a match.

So there's two DNA samples on Lara Hobbes.

One is her father, Jerry Hobbs.

Another is an unknown male.

But on her friend, I'd be curious to know, was Jerry's DNA also on her friend somehow?

Because it seems like if they found two samples and one sample, regardless of if they had a match yet, was on both.

Why are you not pressing harder on your own theory?

Because they already had a theory, right?

So yes, there was this other DNA sample that was on both of the girls' bodies that was an unknown person.

As part of the signed confession that was given to Jerry Hobbes to sign, their theory was that he was mad at his daughter for being outside because she was grounded.

So he came across them in the park and like went into a rage and started attacking his daughter and that Crystal, who was nine, had a knife on her that she pulled out to protect them.

And that was the knife he used to kill them.

I mean, it doesn't make any sense.

And also the knife was never found.

Yeah.

Did you find anything about Crystal's parents and if they accepted Jerry as, you know, they believed he had done this?

I'm not sure.

It was a long time ago.

Yeah.

But you have to imagine that when it came out that the wrong person had been arrested, that that was devastating for them, I'm sure.

You know, it's just, it's not good for anyone when that happens.

And you're leaning on law enforcement to find the person that committed these murders and to question them would be really hard.

It would put you in a difficult position, maybe strain your relationship at a time when you, you want to be communicated with.

Yeah.

In 2010.

And this is why I'm not sure the exact timeline of events, because it's in 2010 when Osama Elatari wears a wire in prison and gets this confession from George Avila Torres.

It's also also in 2010 when Jerry Hobbes' lawyers finally secure a go-ahead to run that DNA through a national database.

That hadn't happened yet.

That has to make you question as well, like, how much did they really want to solve this?

Right.

If you have the ability to do that, don't you want to know also, even if you're totally convinced that Jerry Hobbs was there, he did it, if there's male DNA on both of these girls, was someone with him?

And don't you want to know?

Doesn't that matter to you?

Yeah, you would think that, right?

So they finally run it, and it is a match with George Avila Torres.

You know, remember back when there was an investigation into Amanda Snell's murder, he had agreed to give a DNA sample.

So his DNA, again, was taken when he was arrested for the Arlington crime.

So it was in the system at that time.

It was a match.

In 2010, Jerry Hobbs was exonerated and eventually received a $7.75 million settlement.

You know, $7.75 million.

That's so much money.

But when you think about the trauma of what this person went through, to lose their daughter and her friend in the most brutal way, and then to be targeted by law enforcement, wrongly having been in custody for this, and the court of public opinion can be extremely rough.

Especially since he had a criminal record.

I don't know.

Sometimes I feel like there's there's just not as much sympathy for people.

It doesn't matter.

He still was imprisoned for five years for something he didn't do and blamed for his own daughter's murder.

It's horrible.

Yeah.

I mean, regardless of someone's past, that's an incredible loss.

So as far as George Avila Torres, in October of 2010, he was found guilty of rape and kidnapping charges and sentenced to five life sentences without parole, plus 168 years.

And that was just for the Arlington crimes.

In 2011, he was charged by federal authorities with the death of Amanda Snell.

And in 2014, a federal jury backed by the jailhouse confession and Osama Elatari's testimony and the DNA evidence sentenced him to death for the Snell murder, making him the first person since 2007 to receive such a verdict.

But actually, just last year, his death sentence was commuted.

So he's no longer on death row, but he will serve the rest of his life in prison.

And then in 2018, he faced trial for the murders of Laura Hobbes and Crystal Tobias, the girls in Illinois, and he pled guilty.

You know, it seemed like he pled guilty instead of going to trial.

It was very clear that he did it.

In exchange for his plea, he was given 100 years imprisonment, and he was able to transfer out of a prison, which he didn't like being in at the time.

I think one of the reasons they did this is that Osama Elatari's testimony was really helpful in getting a conviction for him with Amanda Snell's murder.

And it would have been really helpful with the double murder of Laura Hobbes and Crystal Tobias if that had gone to trial.

But unfortunately, Osama Elatari was no longer alive at that point.

He pled guilty and he was sentenced for that as well.

So he's been convicted on all of those charges.

And, you know, at that sentencing hearing, the justice told him, you're a serial killer.

And we don't know if there are other crimes that are connected to him or not, but he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

It has to be such a balance for the prosecutors who are working on a case like this one, because once you sentence someone to 100 years, I mean, a hundred year sentence is like, even that's a small price to pay still for what he has done.

But you also are then losing your leverage to find out about others and maybe close more cases that are out there that possibly he was involved with.

And that has to be a difficult thing to reconcile.

Well, couldn't he, in theory, still be charged?

Yeah, but I would think he'd be way less inclined to give them any information.

But I guess with the

technology advancements with DNA, maybe they don't even need it.

You're right.

He would have no incentive because he's never going to get out of prison.

He's never going to get out of prison and he shouldn't.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So Osama had passed away at this point, but after Osama brought them these confessions from Georgia Vila Torres, do we know was part of that agreement?

And then you're getting me to a new location.

I'm not 100% sure about that, but his prison sentence was cut in half, basically.

So he was released from prison in 2014 and he served less than half of his sentence.

So he was out by 2014.

It's so mind-blowing that you could have someone like Georgia Vila Torres, who's committed these heinous murders and attempted murders, in the same place as someone who's committing financial fraud because both are illegal, but they're very different.

Yeah.

And I think it was maybe because they were in a jail.

I don't know that that would have been their long-term holding place.

I prison.

Okay.

They were both happened to be in this jail at the same time.

But yeah, I mean, it is wild.

So to wrap up Osama Elatari's story, he got out of prison in 2014.

And the majority of the money that he borrowed has never been recovered.

They recovered a couple million, but they were like, where's the rest of the money?

So two years later, in February of 2016, his family reported him missing to authorities.

And there was a search.

They ended up finding his body in his Chevy truck in a rundown industrial area of Capitol Heights, Maryland.

He had been shot and they were pretty sure that he had been murdered because his Rolex was missing.

He was 37 years old.

His family said that after he was released from prison, he had been operating a construction materials business.

And they also said it would be very strange that he wouldn't be wearing his Rolex.

So that was suspicious.

The Prince George County Police Department interviewed multiple people who had been in contact with him recently.

And one of them was a man named Donald Clay.

It came out that this guy, who they weren't even sure how he was connected to Osama Elatari, but they knew that he knew him.

And it seems like Donald Clay had become convinced that Osama had stashed millions of dollars in an offshore account and then had concocted this plan to get him to give him the money.

So Donald Clay created his own offshore bank account.

then lured Osama Elatari to this empty industrial area of Capitol Heights, Maryland on February 11th, 2016, where he was waiting with two armed men.

And they basically kidnapped Osama Elatari, took him into an abandoned house and attempted to coerce him into transferring the money.

The police aren't really sure, like maybe he didn't have money, maybe he did, and he refused to transfer it, but somewhere along the way, the plan went awry and they ended up killing him.

So all three men were arrested and charged.

I don't know if they know for sure, but they're pretty sure that this was like an independent plan, that these guys knew Osama Elatari.

They had heard that he had taken money from a bank.

Everybody in the community really knew that.

But it is interesting to note that,

you know, years before in a letter to the judge who ordered his early release, Osama Elatari wrote that he was nervous about George Avila Torres potentially taking revenge on him.

He said, he told me about plans to eliminate witnesses in his upcoming trial based on his past.

I knew he would not hesitate to kill me, but I continued to assist anyway because I knew it was the right thing to do.

At this point, Osama Elatari had been a witness in the case to convict George Avila Torres of Amanda Snell's murder, but the case and the trial for the double murder of the girls hadn't taken place yet.

So, you know, you have to wonder, but I wasn't able to find anything to connect that.

Okay.

So as far as we know, Donald Clay had no connection to Georgia Vila Torres, just an associate who thought he could get in on some of this money.

Yeah.

So they never found it and has millions and millions of dollars.

Yep.

And Donald didn't get any of it.

His plan didn't work and he committed a horrific murder and the money is still hidden.

So, you know, kind of a winding story.

I thought it was really interesting how the dots all connected.

Probably people have heard of Georgia Vila Torres potentially at this point because he is a serial killer.

But I just really thought that it was interesting the way that Osama Elatari's story connected with his.

And he was in prison for stealing millions of dollars, but then also helped to secure a conviction for a serial killer.

Whether or not he did it for his own gain or for the greater good, you know, you could debate that.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's something we come back to a lot in our interviews where we hear these heavy stories and most people have good and bad.

And maybe he did feel it was the right thing to do in addition to knowing it would help him.

And it sounds like Osama El-Atari.

committed this financial fraud and he sentenced to 12 years but he found a way to lessen his sentence that i think he's right it was the right thing to do.

Yeah.

So that is the story that I brought to tell you today.

That story had so many moving parts, and I'm surprised I hadn't heard more about it.

And it sounds like you came across a helpful FBI affidavit, but otherwise, people wouldn't talk to you either.

And I guess it's just one of those things.

Yeah.

Thanks for listening.

We'll be back next week with an interview.

If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it.

Our email is theknife at exactlyrightmedia.com, or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.

This has been an Exactly Right Production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith, and me, Patia Eaton.

Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexa Samorosi.

This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

What's going on, California?

It's Bluff here.

You know what's better than a relaxing day at the beach?

A relaxing day at the beach with SpinQuest.com, America's number one social casino with over a thousand slots and table games available to the comfort of your own phone, with instant cash prize redemptions, and new users get a $30 coin package for only 10 bucks.

That's S-P-I-N-Q-U-E-S-C.com.

I'll see you there.

SpendQuest is a free-to-play social casino.

Voidwear Prohibited.

Visit spendquest.com for more details.

This is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal.

I want to take a moment to talk about something that impacts how we feel every day, our gut health.

If you've been dealing with sluggish digestion, constant fatigue, brain fog, trouble losing weight, or poor sleep, Your gut may need some extra care.

Your gut plays a vital role in your overall well-being because scientists now say it's the foundation of your vitality and long-term health.

That's where Bioma comes in.

This novel supplement has everything you need for a healthy and thriving gut.

With every serving, you get prebiotics, probiotics, and postbiotics that are science-backed and third-party tested.

So you can enjoy comfortable digestion, boundless energy, better focus, and restful sleep.

and even smoother weight management when following a healthy lifestyle.

Just take two tiny bioma capsules each morning before breakfast and start feeling your best.

Visit bioma.health and use code betrayal to get 15% off your first order.

That's bioma.health, code betrayal for 15% off.

The twisted tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.

In 2007, Amanda Knox was halfway around the world studying abroad in Italy.

She had no idea that her dream would turn into a nightmare.

Inspired by the actual events of her wrongful conviction and 15-year fight for freedom, watch the Hulu original series, The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, now streaming on Hulu, and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers.

Terms apply.