#0034 - Tom Segura

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On this episode, we cover the Joe Rogan Experience 1703 with guest Tom Zagura.

The No Rogan Experience starts now.

Welcome back to the show.

It is the podcast where two podcasters with now 100 hours plus of Rogan experience get to know Joe Rogan.

It's a show for anyone who's curious about Joe Rogan, his guests, and all of their claims, and just anyone who wants to understand Joe's ever-growing media influence.

I'm Michael Marshall.

I'm joined as ever by Cecil Cicarello.

And today we're going to be covering Joe's September 2021 interview with Tom Segura.

So, Cecil, how did Joe introduce Tom in the show notes?

It says Tom Segura is a stand-up comedian and co-host of Your Mom's House and Two Bears One Cave podcasts.

He's also the host of Tom Segura in Espanol, a Spanish language podcast.

Okay, okay.

Is there anything else we should know about him and also why him, why now?

Okay, yeah.

Well, why him, why now?

We'll get to after the music.

But

I want to tell you a little bit about him that I found out because I had listened to this and I thought, well, this guy seems pretty normal, but this is an interesting piece.

So on his show, Your Mom's House, he does this show with his wife.

He had Andrew Tate on his podcast.

This is episode 636.

This is about a year before Tate was arrested on trafficking charges.

They're talking about basic Manosphere stuff and his wife,

and I don't know how to pronounce her name, I'm just going to try, Christian Pazitsky.

I don't know if I'm saying that correctly.

She's the co-host and she says this at one point, quote, you know, it's funny.

I think if I met you 10 years ago, I probably would try to fight you on some of your views.

Now that I had a couple of kids and I'm middle-aged as fuck, I'm like, dude, I don't want to run the world.

Let the boys do it.

Seriously.

Like being in second place, it's kind of great.

I'm being serious because I like to stay home and raise our babies.

And if I, if I want, I can go do stand-up, but like, dude, you do this.

To which Tate responds with this wonderful pearl of wisdom.

It's amazing to me that women call themselves independent and they're out here working in a job for a man.

End quote.

That was literally, it's literally the next line.

It's, I, it's, and it was all I could stomach of Andrew Tate when I listened to it.

Okay, not uh, not ideal, not great.

And it's literally all Manosphere stuff.

And this is like I suggest a couple of years ago.

So it might be that they're working on an audience, a different type of audience than what we're used to working with.

So also

in a series of deleted tweets in 2023, he calls an airlinist receptionist a dumb cunt because she made him check a bag.

And then he got a bunch of shit from like regular working humans.

And then he replied in a thread about how all poor people suck.

So here's just two tweets that he did.

Quote, all the poors and losers have the same response.

Oh, you were inconvenienced.

You should accept it.

That's what me and my dumb poor family have done for generations.

That's why you're a poor,

end quote.

And then here's the other one.

Quote, the lowest level poors get upset as they've been trained to do when you point out.

They're happy to do what I'm told servant mentality.

They don't value time because their time is worthless.

You are specks of shit on a washcloth and washcloths belong in the trash.

Okay.

I mean, washcloths still belong in the trash, but carry on.

I mean, really, you got to be pretty rich if you're just throwing your washcloths away.

He hasn't got time to wash the washcloths.

He's a busy man.

His time is important.

I must be poor because I keep my washcloths.

But in any case, I will link screen grabs in the show notes.

I'm not suggesting that his whole career is problematic, but I will point out that those two things certainly popped off the page when I searched.

Yeah, those things aren't ideal.

So what did he talk about with Joe in this interview?

Well, so COVID.

It's a lot about COVID.

This is taking place in the middle of the pandemic.

It's 2021, so it's still really crazy at this point.

Joe had just gotten over COVID, and this may be the first show after he recovered.

They also spent some time talking about media coverage, which is what we're going to cover in our toolbox, and how Joe is sort of the media is going after him for suggesting that he's spreading misinformation.

And then they spend their time, other than that, talking about comedy, abortion rights, billionaires, gun laws, George Soros, and some other odds and ends.

Gotcha.

Okay.

So, yeah, we're going to do COVID for the main event.

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It's

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I convinced Marsh to do this show because I I wanted to go back and sort of try to find Joe's conversion story history.

We know that Joe has sort of

changed his views over the years.

And

we listened to some of his shows that are really far in the past, eight, nine years ago.

And we've sort of seen that he changed his views.

And we know that he changed his views on COVID very specifically because we listened to, as a bonus, a David Pachman show, and he had some pretty reasonable takes.

Not 100% reasonable, but certainly more reasonable than Joe is today.

So there had to be some sort of change between then and now.

And so I was sort of searching for it.

And one of the things I did was I thought, well, what if we listen to a couple of shows that happen right after sort of big cultural events?

And this one is happening right after he was published.

They published a story on CNN about how he's spreading misinformation.

And I think there might be some sort of, I don't know that there's a knock you off your horse sort of story that changed Joe's outlook completely, but I think there is sort of a slow conversion that happens with Joe over time.

And this may be the start, the seeds of that conversion are happening here where he's changing his views on the media because he was just portrayed very badly in the media.

And I'm wondering sort of what his views are on the media.

And so we're going to cover that in our toolbox section.

But one of the things too is we're going to look at his COVID takes here, too, because he had literally just got over COVID.

So we're going to look at his COVID takes.

And I think that will also be enlightening for us too, to look at some of those COVID takes, because it allows us to see where his opinions on that have shifted and what his thought process was at the same time.

Some of the other things I plan to do too in the future is one of the things I want to do is the show that happened.

where he talks about January 6th for the first time, right after January 6th and other things like that.

And so I will ask the listeners too, if you can think of a cultural moment, especially something that might be a sort of a fulcrum, a tipping point for Joe, send it to us, noroganpod at gmail.com, because I'd love to get some more ideas about these.

But there's a couple of ideas that have been running through my head to see sort of where Joe's takes were then, and then maybe look at what his takes are more recently.

So here we go.

This is starting out the show.

Like I suggest, main event, COVID.

So we're going to start out with the very first part of the show.

You're going to hear the intro music and Tom talks to him about his latest CNN appearance.

Hey, man.

What's up, bro?

Well, well, well.

Well, well, busy and old horseworm rogue.

I'm glad you're well, man.

Bro, do I have to sue CNN?

I don't know.

Do you?

They're making shit up.

They keep saying I'm taking horse dewormer.

I literally got it from a doctor.

It's an American company.

They won the Nobel Prize in 2015 for use in human beings.

And CNN is saying I'm taking horse dewormer.

Yeah.

They must know that that's a lie.

There's a lot of people saying it.

Right, but a lot of people can say it.

Okay.

Like the internet says it.

Who cares?

Sure.

But CNN is saying it.

Like Jim Acosta.

I meant like USA Today, a few other plague.

Yeah, and they're talking about ivermectin.

So what, because I don't know, I just saw so much news about you.

I mean, I would talk to you and check on you and see if you're all right.

And you're like, you, you, you threw the kitchen sink at it, you said, which was stuff that, you know, you took IV drips and was it mono, what?

Monoclonal?

Monoclonal antibodies.

And then what is monoclonal antibodies?

The shit they gave Trump.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then what, so who said, or did you already want ivermectin?

Well, I have this guy on, Dr.

Pierre Corey, and he is, what is the organization he's from?

Frontline COVID critical care workers.

He's a well-established doctor.

He's treated thousands of people with COVID.

And they've,

early on the pandemic, they found some good efficacy with

ivermectin, Frontline 19 Critical Care Alliance.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I had him on, and, you know, he had talked to me about, he's not the only doctor that told me to take it.

Multiple doctors told me to take it.

So I just want to jump in here and say that I looked up the Frontline 19

Critical Care Alliance and there are a group of doctors who are and former journalists that are rallied rallied around the alternative and debunk therapies for COVID-19.

So, they were spreading a bunch of misinformation.

And he had one of those people on his show.

And, you know, the reason why people around, I was calling it horse dewormer too.

The reason why people are calling it horse dewormer is that doctors would not prescribe this medicine to people because it wasn't effective.

So, they were going out to like farm and fleet and buying horse dewormer tablets and taking a horse dose of this particular medicine because they thought it would do something for COVID.

And they are literally taking horse dewormer because not everybody has a doctor they can just call and get a prescription from.

We live in a hellscape of a medical care system here in the United States where we just don't have a doctor that we can call because we're not all independently rich.

We have to do it through our HMO.

And our HMO is like, no, I'm not doing that.

So there's a reason why people were going very specifically to the

farm and fleet to get this.

And it is mostly used on on animals.

This is from a Guardian article about the shortages during the panic buying that was happening around COVID.

Quote, ivermectin is a deworming agent, mostly, most commonly used in horses, livestock, and occasionally dogs and cats.

It is used in smaller doses in humans as an anti-parasitic to treat conditions, including skin problems and head lice, end quote.

Yeah, that's right.

And, you know, it is used in animals.

It is also, as you say, used in humans.

Yeah.

Joe's also right that ivermectin won a Nobel Prize, but it won the Nobel Prize because it, quote, radically lowered the incidence of river blindness and lymphatic filariasis, as well as showing efficacy against other parasitic diseases.

Okay, that's what it won the Nobel Prize for, which is great.

The thing is, COVID isn't a parasitic disease.

And so there's no reason why taking an anti-parasitic was going to help you with a viral infection.

Similarly, it would be similar to saying, well, penicillin.

Penicillin is a great antibiotic.

It changed the world.

But taking it to cure COVID wouldn't be appropriate because it's not bacterial unless you happen to have a secondary bacterial infection, which can happen.

And so,

this is part of the problem when drugs become a focal point in the public conversation, when they have a moment like this.

There was ivermectin before it, or around about the same time, there's hydroxychloroquine was being promoted, which was an anti-malarial, similar, similarly sort of parasitic in order to treat COVID.

A lot of people, like Joe, will see this drug won the Nobel Prize and assume that it means, well, therefore, it must be effective for the thing that I'm taking it for, because this is just an effective drug.

But drugs are only effective for the thing they're effective for.

They're not effective for everything.

Right.

And it's almost,

it struck me that this is like a weird twisted version of, have you heard of the Nobel disease?

The idea that people who've won a Nobel Prize can sometimes completely lose the plot on other subjects.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

We've talked about this before.

Yeah.

So they assume that their Nobel Prize makes them sort of super smart and therefore less likely to write about stuff.

And then they stumble into a topic they know nothing about and their hubris kind of is the undoing of them.

This is almost like the Nobel disease for drugs.

Like it's not ivermectin that's making those claims, but it's people making the claims on behalf of ivermectin, but it's just not appropriate because that's not what it does.

It's an anti-parasitic.

COVID isn't parasite born.

Yeah,

that's really interesting.

People.

were also taking it at the time, Marsh, prophylactically and then going to the hospital.

Here's a quote from an article that I'll put in the show notes, quote, five Oregonians have been hospitalized because they misused the deworming drug ivermectin in an attempt to treat or prevent COVID-19, according to Oregon Poison Center at Oregon Health and Science University, and quote.

So people were getting sick going to the hospital.

In fact, that's not a unique case.

That didn't happen just one time.

That happened a bunch across America because people were trying to home remedy the shit out of COVID.

Yeah, it was happening in parts of Latin America too.

And I believe that was even difficult to do some studies on the advocacy of ivermectin because they were finding it difficult to locate people who weren't currently taking it.

So they couldn't find a control group because everybody had seen the report and everybody was rushing out to get it where it was more available as an animal medication.

This is the problem, though, with Joe taking on just the things that he's told on this show.

He says

in here, you know, that Pierre Corey was on, and that's why he's taken ivermectin Joe is just constantly unable to turn his feigned curiosity at the claims made by his guests sat in front of him you know he just completely took at face value Pierre Corey's claims about ivermectin piercy was never a leading physician He wasn't like on the very cutting edge of infectious disease research or anything like that.

He was a regular doctor.

He had some clinical expertise, but from what I read, most of his actual expertise, the thing he was really good at, was in ultrasonography.

So he was great with a ultrasound diagnostic imager.

That was like the mainstay of his work.

It's not remotely relevant to treating COVID.

I mean, he is a doctor.

So like, sure, he can probably know his way around treatment of various things, but he's not, his, his expertise isn't lending itself to finding novel treatments during a pandemic.

But those novel treatments themselves, they are useful for finding a lot of media attention and a lot of fame during a pandemic, whether those treatments work or not.

And that's what happened.

Pierre Corey became a famous figure with people who were on the COVID contrarianism side of things because he was saying these things that weren't agreeing with the mainstream.

And that is going to make him stand out to a lot of people, including to Joe.

But Pierre Corey lost his medical license over this in 2023, so two years after this interview, but over the kind of claims he was making prior when he was on Joe's show.

And you mentioned, yeah, the frontline COVID-19 critical care alliance.

They actually still exist.

They renamed themselves the Independent Medical Alliance.

These are the ones that Jaw trusts.

There were a group of doctors, and as you say, former journalists who spent the majority, certainly the early days of the pandemic, spreading misinformation about treating COVID.

The fact that Joe trusts them says a lot more about Jaw's media sourcing and his biases towards outlier contrarian positions than it does about

what the FLCCC claim is a big conspiracy, a grand conspiracy by big medicine to cover up the truth of Ivermectin's effectiveness.

That's kind of what they're claiming has happened here.

For me, this is no different to Joe citing the engineers who thought that 9-11 was a controlled demolition.

Yeah.

You know, those ones stood out because they disagreed with the majority of their colleagues.

And that's what's happening with these doctors.

But as ever with Joe, you know, when he hears that nine out of 10 dentists recommend Colgate, his instinct is to assume that 10th dentist must be onto something.

Well, that's because he's afraid of fluoride.

That is true.

That is true.

Yeah.

All right.

Now, this clip and the next, I think, four, literally pick up right where they stopped talking.

So they, they're, we're not skipping anything.

They're talking about ivermectin in this clip.

It's uh, it's supposed to have uh, what is the exact thing it's supposed to do?

There's, there's something that I highlighted.

Um,

and this is obviously, I'm not a doctor.

It says ivermectin was found to be a blocker of viral

replicase, R-E-P-L-I-C-A-S-A Protas, and I don't know what this word is, human T-M-P-R-S-S-2.

I don't know.

But what they didn't highlight is that I got better.

Yeah, you got better quickly.

They're trying to make it seem as if

I'm doing some wacky shit that's completely ineffective.

Right.

CNN was saying that I'm a distributor of misinformation.

Okay, pin in that.

Pinning in that.

But look, you don't even know what this stuff is.

It just sounds medicine-y to you.

You can't even, you can't even pronounce it.

You have to spell it.

Yeah, and that's understandable because not everyone's an expert in these kinds of areas.

But this is like him going and explaining why he's taking this.

He's having to read stuff he doesn't fully understand as his justification.

His real justification is he got it from some doctors, but they're the doctors that he sought out.

So there's a massive selection bias in there.

Yeah.

Also, look, he says, I took it and I got better.

Lots of people

got COVID and they got better and they took a various number of things.

And also, the other thing, too, is a lot of people got better in the same timeframe it took you to get better, Joe.

He thinks he's like this weird outlier.

And we're going to hear that as we sort of pour through the tape.

Yeah, exactly.

This is survivor bias.

This is the idea that I survived, therefore what I did is what was helping me.

And I think some of this may also be

at the time, you know, there was so much worrying, scary information in the news that maybe Joe didn't see a lot of reports of people who got COVID and had a fairly mild case of it and were fine, because we don't spread those cases as much, not because we're trying to hide anything as a society, but because we need to make it very clear that not everyone's like that.

And the people who aren't fine are going to be in a lot of trouble.

So we need to take it seriously.

But anyway, so given that Joe is currently, as we hear there, reading out some of the studies on ivermectin to prove what it is and what it does, let's talk about some of the studies on ivermectin.

There were a lot of studies at the time that were published that were showing that ivermectin was effective against COVID-19.

But the thing about that rush of studies is a lot of them had major issues with them.

And so researchers actually went back and looked into those studies around the time, in fact.

So in October 2021, so a month after this interview, there was a story in the BBC which highlighted how more than a third of the 26 biggest trials for ivermectin on the for for using for use with COVID had either serious errors or signs of potential fraud in the studies.

And none of the rest of those, none of the other two-thirds, showed any convincing evidence of ivermectin's effectiveness.

So when you take the totality of the evidence there, it looks like it's really effective, but the ones that are saying it's effective have signs of serious errors and maybe even fraud.

And so the types of issues that were appearing in this data, it would be the same patient's patient's data would be used multiple times for supposedly different people.

So either you had exactly the same people with all the same information about them, or the same person was being replicated in the data set in order to inflate the data set.

Or, you know, the selection of patients for test groups, it wasn't randomized.

And once it's not randomized, then it's not a good study.

It's not a reliable study.

There were times where percentages were just calculated incorrectly.

The numbers were there in front of you.

And then the percentage just was not right for those numbers.

There were other studies where numbers that were unlikely to occur naturally.

I haven't seen the exact type, but I know

the type of thing that it means.

It would be stuff like where there's no link between height and BMI.

We would expect there to be a broad correlation between your BMI and your height because the two are kind of equated.

But if you see in your randomized data set, there's a lot of BMIs and a lot of heights and they don't seem to show any correlation, then that's a suggestion that the data may not be fully reliable.

So one of the people going through these studies to figure out these issues, a guy called Dr.

Kyle Sheldrick from Australia.

And he said that they hadn't found a single clinical trial claiming to show that ivermectin prevented COVID deaths that didn't contain, quote, either obvious signs of fabrication or errors so critical they invalidate the study.

Unquote.

Sheldrick was working with Gideon Meyrowitz-Katz, Dr.

James Heathers, and Dr.

Nick Brown, and also a medical researcher called Jack Lawrence, who actually first sounded the alarm on this.

It's an interesting story.

Jack was doing his, he was in his third year of university degree, and he was tasked with just look at some studies here to sort of analyze these studies as just a project for getting to grips with studies.

And when he did that on the ivermectin, he realized what he was seeing was signs of fraud.

And so he had this kind of third-year university researcher.

And the fun thing about that story is the reason I know this information about it is when Jack found those signs of fraud, he actually contacted me.

He tweeted me and I spoke to him on the phone about it.

Yeah.

Because he was a listener to my other show, Skeptics with a K, and he knew that I do work in this kind of area.

And I was going to try and connect him up with some journalists, a contact I had at The Guardian.

But before I had a chance to do that, he was already talking to those other researchers who then took this on and worked with Jack to go through all the evidence and publish this as an academic paper, kind of studying the totality of the research.

And the reason I know the kind of tools and techniques they were using to look for those signs of fraud is that I've actually been using them myself over the last couple of years.

And I'm a co-author on a paper with Gideon Myrowitz Katz from that team that karl sheldrich is actually working on looking at fraud in medical research so it turns out looking at this kind of stuff is a small world also the bbc article that wrote it up i i know the writer rachel schreyer so it is a very small world here just another of my my little black book of uh addresses uh coming together um i'll link all of these uh things in the show notes the thing is the kind of the result of that kind of scrutiny on the data meant that some of the papers that were promoting ivermectin were actually eventually retracted, including a November 2021 paper in the Journal of Intensive Care Medicine written by Pierre Corey, Joe's doctor who was giving him ivermectin, and also some of his FLCCC colleagues.

That retraction came because the paper misreported the mortality figures of people who were treated for COVID with their protocol, making it seem like their protocol was effective.

So they misreported it to make it seem like what they were doing was working.

And that's why this research paper was retracted.

So these are the studies that Joe is relying on and the medical expertise who's persuading Joe to turn towards iverctin.

I think it's fair to say he was promoting, he was distributing misinformation.

Yeah,

absolutely.

We're going to find out.

There's more in misinformation coming up.

Hey, why don't I queue up this clip about Japan?

Also, that was the other thing that happened

in Tokyo, in Japan, which is apparently

they're very conservative about the medication that they use and the medications that they endorse.

But the Tokyo Medical Association chairman held a live press conference recommending ivermectin to all doctors for all COVID patients.

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.: So, what's going on with the, like, the, you know, it's kind of hard to figure out what's the truth in a lot of things, but with regard to this, people go, it's insane to take ivermectin.

Like, you see it everywhere.

Everyone's like, this is wild.

Don't take this shit.

And then you have the head of the fucking Tokyo whatever medical commission saying, take ivermectin.

Yeah, I don't know what's going on, man.

You know, there's a lot of speculation.

One of the speculations involves the emergency use authorization for the vaccines.

That in order for there to be an emergency use authorization, there has to be no treatment for a disease.

Right.

So because there is this treatment in ivermectin, and there's other treatments too.

Right.

Because of this, there's a lot of pushback against potential treatments and pretending that they don't really work or that they're conspiracy theories.

This is the grand conspiracy, right?

The grand conspiracy is the pharmaceutical companies are all in cahoots to try to make anybody who takes this stuff look crazy.

But what's crazy is, look how better I got.

I got better pretty quick, bitch.

Okay, we'll get to that.

We'll get to it.

We're going to find out what he did a little later on.

But look, Joe's complaining that CNN is attacking him for spreading misinformation literally 30 seconds prior to this clip.

And then he spreads two pieces of misinformation right in a row.

And I'm going to debunk those very quickly from the AP.

I'll put a link in the show notes.

There was a misinterpretation of what a doctor said in Tokyo when they were giving a press conference.

At the news conference, they said that

COVID may have been

that ivermectin may have benefits, but it needs to be studied further.

And quote, some people online misinterpreted this as an endorsement of the drug and mischaracterized this doctor as a government official.

But the Tokyo Medical Association is an independent organization underneath the Japan Medical Association.

It's not a government agency and doesn't reflect the official stance of the Japanese government or its Ministry of Health, end quote.

So this is a random person that people found online and then boosted their their credentials so they look like they're talking for all of Japan.

And that's just not true.

The other claim is that ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine were suppressed as COVID-19 treatments because the vaccines

couldn't receive emergency use

authorization if there were other treatments available.

And here's AP's assessment.

That is false.

Quote, there is nothing in federal law.

law or regulation that prevents a preventative measure such as a vaccine from being authorized for emergency use because it has a treatment available.

Experts and officials say the body of scientific evidence available has not proven that those things work also, quote, end quote.

And those are both AP articles.

I'll link to them in the show notes, but he literally says he's not spreading information and then dumps a bunch of misinformation on you.

Yeah, yeah, completely.

And just think of what that conspiracy theory, that Joy himself said, a conspiracy theory.

Think of what that has to be based on.

You know, this idea that, you know, if you, there has to be not an effective treatment in order to get emergency use.

Now,

in reality, what's actually happening is, oh shit, we don't have an effective treatment.

Well, let's get emergency use for this thing that looks promising rather than have to take as long in terms of the red tape to get through the process of approving it because the long you take, the more people are going to die when there's nothing to save them right now.

That's the reality of what's happening.

But Joe's version of the conspiracy, it has to be based on the idea that at the height of a pandemic where hundreds of thousands of people are dying, big pharma want to pretend that an effective medicine doesn't work so that they can push something that Joe says isn't effective.

Okay, so even if you posit that there is a conspiracy by big pharma to keep you sick to maximize profits, let's just have that as accept that as true for a moment.

Sure, sure.

Letting you die is a terrible way of achieving those goals.

Dead people don't pay medical bills.

So why would they withhold a thing that works to give you a thing that doesn't work and then let you die?

And then you can't buy any more things from them.

You don't let your consumers die.

So, yeah, we are literally, as you say, we've played these clips back to back.

We're not going to do this all the way through the three-hour conversation that they have, but this is the opening four minutes of the conversation.

See how much COVID misinformation we've already had packed into these four minutes so far.

And so much of this, genuinely so much of this, it's coming out this way because Joe comes out swinging because he didn't like the fact that CNN had criticized him and criticized him, as we can see, completely fairly.

Absolutely.

And there's a part where Tom says it's really hard to figure out the truth.

And

it's kind of not.

And I think, like, one of the things you've got to pay attention to, Tom, is that there are a lot of forces out there that are trying to muddy the water.

There's grifting forces that are trying to get you to buy their thing or listen to me about this particular COVID thing, and then you can buy a bunch of other supplements from my site, et cetera.

There was a lot of forces out there doing that.

There's also other governments that would love to see us fail at this particular thing.

So they might be posting things.

Trust, go to trusted sources.

Do trusted sources make mistakes?

Absolutely they do.

They make mistakes all the time, but they correct their mistakes.

Go to the trusted sources.

You're not going to be 100% right, but you're certainly going to be more right than if you just think everything on the internet has the same value.

Okay, so now they're going to, again, I'm not skipping anything.

This is the next clip talking about how Joe dealt, first, how Joe got his COVID.

So you get back from a trip, right?

And is it that night, do you arrive home and know, or like on your way home, you're like, I don't feel so great?

Well, Saturday, here's what happened.

Friday night, we went out and got hammered.

Went out and played pool till 3.30 in the morning, had a bunch of drinks.

Had a bunch of drinks at the show.

At the show, I think I had two drinks, and then I had like four afterwards.

So we were pretty lit.

Yeah.

And it was 3.30 in the morning, exhausted, plane travel, you know, flew that day from,

I guess, so Fort Lauderdale was the first show.

Then that was Tampa.

And then the last show was Orlando.

That night, I just, I was worn out Friday night, you know, because it's 3:30 in the morning.

And I was like, oh, I got to crash.

And then I woke up in the morning and I was definitely hungover, but I was also just feeling a little out of it, just a little, just a little, just not good.

It's hard to describe.

If I had COVID, it was just like beginning stages, but I thought it was a hangover.

Right.

Which kind of confuses

how you can read it.

So I drank a lot of water, ate, took a bunch of vitamins, went to sleep, got up for the show, felt good.

No drinks that night.

And then that night we flew back.

And so

just feeling worn out, you know, pretty normal, but worn out.

And then when I got home, I was like, man, something just feels off.

So I told my wife, you know, you should probably keep away from me.

Let me isolate.

Luckily, we have a big house.

I isolated.

And in the middle of the night, I was sweating.

You know, I would get fevers, and I just wasn't feeling good.

And you knew it then?

I woke up in the morning.

I knew it.

When the morning, by the time the morning, I was like, something's going on.

Let's see what it is.

It's 90, whatever percent sure it was COVID.

So morning, I got tested, turned out positive.

And then

this is Sunday?

Mm-hmm.

Sunday.

All right.

So it feels like there's a lot of factors in this that, you know, we're going to count the hits and forget the misses on.

But, you know, he's taking vitamins every day.

And he thinks that, like, if you take vitamins, then you fend off a sickness quickly.

And then you can attribute that to the vitamins.

And it could be like a number of things that you could, you're doing that, whether or not that's going to fend off the sickness.

And then you, you got to isolate these variables.

You can't just pick one thing.

And we're going to notice this.

You're going to see this as these clips play out that he's picking all these things that he does.

And he's saying, well, here's one of the reasons.

Here's one of the reasons.

Here's one of the reasons.

And this is why I defeated COVID 100%, no problem.

And I want to point out the timeline, too, because he's saying like, hey, I got sick on Friday.

I was sick Friday.

Essentially, Friday, I went out drinking.

And then Saturday morning, I was sick.

Later on, he's going to be like, yeah, I was just sick for a day.

I don't think he was sick for a day.

I think he was sick for a couple of days.

And he's now playing it off as if he's sick for a day.

So remember the timeline there.

He's gonna, this is gonna be a thing he's gonna go back to because we did hear about multiple times in the other episodes.

His recollection of this.

This is probably gonna be the best recollection we get because it's literally a day or two after he got better.

So this is gonna be, we should remember this accounting of this tale and not the myth he makes later on.

This is what we should try to sort of get in our minds and remember how he actually handled COVID.

Yeah,

that's absolutely fair.

And I'll just point out, he talks about how he's like traveling around a bit and when he's testing and things.

I'm not going to judge people for how they handled COVID at the time because 2021, you know, it was a very tough time.

People were doing things that weren't always smart.

I think lots of us were doing things that weren't smart.

We were trying to do our best of it.

But it sounds like he just had a regular experience with COVID.

And that's how people were handling their COVID at the time.

You know, it doesn't sound like he had anything remarkably

mild compared to other people or remarkably difficult.

He just had COVID like millions, hundreds of millions people around had COVID in exactly the same way.

Nothing remarkable here, I think.

Okay, so we are this is again we're skipping ahead maybe 15 seconds because they say something else, but now again, this is where Joe's going to talk about the treatment that he did.

Did you have a plan in place in your head for like, if I get COVID, I would do these?

So you yeah, so when you find out you're positive, you start reaching out for these treatments.

Yeah, I already had it.

I already had it in place.

You did?

Yeah, I was already ready to go.

So and then you started taking them that day.

Yeah, I got it.

I got all the stuff that I needed, took it that day.

And then Monday, I felt pretty fucking good.

And I was taking vitamin IV drips every day, high dose vitamin C, vitamin D, and NAD as well.

What is the NAD stuff?

Because I hear it.

It's a good question.

It's a word.

Try to say the word.

Pull it up so we can just read it because it's very complicated.

I love this.

Try to say the word, try to say what.

Could you imagine, though, if he was reading the back of a bag of chips and how horrified he would be that he couldn't read the ingredients?

Could you imagine how scared he would be of bag of chips in comparison to the shit he is literally injecting into his veins that he cannot pronounce?

I just wanted to point out the sort of naturalistic fallacy in that, but in any case, Joe's bringing up a bevy of things that he literally has ready.

Unlike anyone listening, no one listening had a whole like IV cabinet that they could open up and put a bunch of stuff into them, whether or not that works or not, which I'm not sure it even does.

But in any case, he's saying like, I had this whole treatment already ready to go.

And again, I'll point out none of this stuff is taken in isolation.

So if Joe says, I got better really fast, and then he lists 20 things that he did, you can't pinpoint one of those things as the thing that helped him or two of those things or three of those things because he just did a bunch of them.

So listening to him is just an anecdote.

There's nothing to this.

Yeah.

And we also can't isolate out the thing that he also did that he didn't bother listing because it wasn't one of his miracle treatments.

So like later he'll say he rested.

That probably had a lot to do with it.

You know, hydration, if he took painkillers, those are things that probably helped him kind of deal with his symptoms.

But he probably isn't going to mention those because they're pretty normal.

Ironically, the IV drips that he's got, probably the best stuff that he's getting out of that is the hydration rather than actually necessarily all the vitamins.

But I think, you know, first of all, this really does illustrate how worried Joe actually was about getting COVID.

Because later he'll talk about how COVID, it wasn't that bad, things weren't anywhere near that bad.

The vaccine actually was much worse, you know, people can just survive COVID.

It's all totally fine.

But he was very worried about COVID, understandably.

It was a scary time.

He already had this full plan in place to take all of these things.

But it also shows that Given that there's so many things in this plan, he was already deep in the hole long before he ever got COVID because of the people he he has on the shore who are saying, take your vitamin C, your vitamin D, your NAD, all this kind of stuff.

He was already swamped and steeped in that stuff.

Well, later we'll hear that he was also taking ivermectin prophylactically.

So he's taken all sorts of stuff.

And the other thing is, some people just had an okay time with COVID.

Some people actually had COVID and didn't feel any symptoms.

And the only thing they had was a positive test.

You know, they just totally felt fine with it.

I wish I was one of those people.

I really wasn't.

I had a really shitty time each of the three times, I think, or that I, that I had COVID.

Plenty of people who had that not very difficult experience weren't injecting themselves with vitamins and minerals, but they had the same experience that Joe did.

But this was his experience.

And so naturally, he's going to tie his outcome to whatever he was doing at the time.

And so we end up in this deep well of COVID misinformation that will carry on for years as a result of that.

Okay, so now he's going to explain what NAD is.

But what NAD does is essentially it lengthens your telomeres.

Nicotinamide, adenine, dinucleotide.

Yes, that's it.

So it's a coenzyme central to metabolism found in all living cells.

NAD is called a dinucleotide because it consists of two nucleotides joined through their phosphate groups.

One nucleotide contains an adenine nucleobase and the other nicotinamide.

Okay.

Anyway, I've taken that stuff in the past

in IV drips.

It's super uncomfortable.

It makes your guts feel like they're getting smushed.

Like you have to do it real slow.

You do it over like two hours.

The drip?

Yeah.

Or you get really high and you can fucking blaze through it.

I hold the world record at, not the world record, the record that they ever had a drip hydration for someone doing it.

I did it in 10 minutes.

You're supposed to do it in like two hours plus.

You didn't do it in 10 minutes ahead.

No, no, no, no, no.

This time I didn't fuck around.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Because I was doing it in 10 minutes to see how fast I could do it.

Absolutely wild.

I mean, absolutely wild.

Why would you try to speed run your medical dosage?

You don't need to do that.

Amazing.

That is so amazing.

He's getting high and trying to like break intravenous drip records.

Come on, man.

Do not take medical advice from Joe Rokin when you hear that.

But for me, what it really shows is just how how much of this comes out of that kind of bro culture, bio hack, optimization.

It's all that stuff.

It's that, oh, yeah, you just get high and just take as much of it as you can.

And I've got the record for doing it fast.

Nobody should ever boast about how quickly they can take a medicine.

The speed of ingestion

is never the tell for the efficacy of a medicine.

But also, when he's explaining what NAD actually is, I mean, fair play.

Tom actually does a decent job, sight unseen, of saying nicotinamide, adenine denucleotide.

He does a pretty good job of just coming straight in that.

Fair play to him.

But then Joe explains, oh, yeah, it's called a denucleotide because it's got two nucleotides that are joined through phosphate groups.

So, all right.

Is that scientific help explanation helpful to anyone?

Like, he's basically reading out the ingredients list or other manufacturing process in case anyone wants to make their own homemade NAD.

Essentially, what it's doing, though, is it's using the scientific terms he's reading out as a convincer, as a persuader.

It must be real because listen to how science-y this is, but none of that says that it works for anything.

You're just describing how the chemicals are bonded to one another.

That's not anything of any use to anyone.

Have you ever covered this anywhere else?

Have you ever looked at NAD before?

Has this ever come up on any other show?

It's come up on Skeptics with a K.

I didn't do the story.

Dr.

Alice, who I do Skeptics with a K with, she did cover NAD.

I'm not quite sure which episode it is, but she's looked into the idea of it lengthening your telomeres, and there's some evidence that it might, but there's no evidence that it does that in a way that's useful to you, and there's no evidence

to say that doing so could be of use, that that is a good thing that you want.

So, telomeres, yeah, if I remember rightly, telomeres, um, your proteins will shrink over time.

The telomeres is the thing that kind of kills them at the end, and so lengthening the idea would be that it would uh stop the protein shrinking too far because that's associated with aging.

But what we don't know is, do shortened telomeres cause aging, or does aging cause shortened telomeres or does something cause aging and shortened telomeres because if it's any of those latter two lengthening your telomeres artificially wouldn't do anything because it's it's the the process of causation would go in the opposite direction i think that's kind of the uh the basis of it but yeah i'll i'll try and find the episode of skeptics play where alice talked about nad okay so this next one is about joe's experience how he felt when he was getting COVID.

Again,

we haven't moved forward yet.

This is literally the first eight minutes of the show.

My concern when I spoke to you was just, will you please fucking rest?

That's what I texted you.

I was like, no hill runs, no fucking kettlebells, and don't wrestle any fucking cattle today.

Just rest.

I did.

You're like, I'm going to rest.

I'm going to rest.

I rested.

I know.

I did.

I rested.

I did.

I didn't do shit, but watch TV.

I actually enjoyed the first couple of days because I was like, this is a nice, like a legit, solid excuse where I don't have to do anything.

Yes.

Which never comes up.

Right.

That was like when the pandemic started back in March last year, where it was like, no, you have to cancel your dates.

I was like, oh, it'd be like a nice week off.

Sure.

Two weeks to slow the spread.

Yeah, let's fucking chill out.

Yeah, say that to the poor, Tom.

You know,

here's a guy who's tweeting about the poor.

All the poors I know had to go work in the fucking grocery store with a giant mask over their face and hope to God they didn't get COVID that day.

So, yeah, say that to the poor's.

You know, this is what happens in the USA when you're independently wealthy and you can take the time off, you know, like fucking what happens to everybody else.

And this isn't like the UK where you could just take time off or whatever.

Like you can't do that over here.

You're just fucking fired.

So the, you know, the other option too is you go in sick and then you infect the whole crew.

And we saw that happen a lot in the USA too.

Oh, yeah.

And to be fair, like to be totally honest, in the UK, that was a thing too.

I mean, not all jobs have luxurious sick pay.

A lot of jobs don't have that, especially jobs at the lower end of the socioeconomic market.

So the more precarious your position, the more likely you are to be in a job that doesn't pay very well and doesn't have very good protection, the more likely you are to be fired if you take time off because you're ill.

So yeah, the richer people will be fine and the people who are struggling will struggle more.

And that's kind of how the system is here too.

But yeah, what we hear is Joe rested.

And I saw you even noting, he said the first couple of days.

So he's now definitely in a couple of days, like the first couple of days, which suggests there was more than a couple of days.

So he rested.

Definitely more than a day.

So like that rest is going to have contributed more to your recovery than the NAD drips that you shotgunned, I imagine.

Like that, it's the rest is going to be what's good for you.

But that whole thing about, you know, take the time off when you can, like, when you've got the ability to take the time off, that's what helps.

This is what people mean when they talk about things like health privilege.

You know, Joel will scoffer headlines on NPR.

We saw it in a recent show about how something like, imagine if he saw one of those headlines on NPR that was all about the racial element of this and the racial element of that.

If he'd have seen a headline there about COVID recovery chances are class or race related, that would have been just in that list of things they're scoffing at.

But your ability to just do shit but watch TV, as Joe put it, that's dependent on your wealth and your job.

And your wealth and your job is more likely to be precarious depending on your race and your class.

So these are the privileges that Joe and his buddies sort of roll their eyes at when it comes up in conversation.

We're going to take a short break.

We'll be back right after this.

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All right, we're back.

Let's jump right back in.

Is it this is the first skip?

This is the first skip.

This is it.

Okay, so we're moving forward again.

Now, this is this is actually,

they wander away from COVID for a bit, but then they come back to talk about preventative ivermectin.

So, wait, but we were saying you didn't have any loss of smell, no, taste.

No, none.

Lucky, man.

Yeah, I got lucky.

Well, I mean, it didn't have a chance.

I jumped on it so quick.

I think my body was so filled up with vitamins that even though I got it, it's like the preparation was there, you know.

And that was the only time that I wasn't taking ivermectin prophylactically, which is supposed to be, according to Dr.

Pierre Corey, supposed to be the best use of it.

There's a study, find out

a study out of Argentina, prophylaxis use of ivermectin in

critical critical care workers.

That was where

they had given it to a bunch of doctors and nurses and

they gave it to them as a preventative measure.

And it helped?

Yeah, that's supposed to be the best use of it as a preventative measure.

Do you know the so I had loss of smell, which came back mostly?

They say alpha-lipoic acid, according to Huberman.

And

it says, yeah.

Well, I googled it, that's the study that is, in quotes, flawed according to Nature Doc.

I love that he gets fact-checked at the end there.

Okay, really quickly, he was taking Iverman prophylactically, but then he didn't have it when he got sick.

What a weird thing to mention.

Yeah, or at least he wasn't taking it at the time that he got sick, so he may not have been taking it.

And it feels like a weird detail, but okay, I'm going to be as kind and fair as possible here.

He did say he got sick while he was traveling and while he was staying up late drinking.

And okay, you are less likely to take regular medication, even medication that isn't effective in any way, when you're out of your routine.

So if you're traveling a lot, you're staying up late, maybe you don't take the pill before bed because you go to bed drunk.

Okay, I could see that kind of happening.

But what that says is, how often was he breaking that routine at other points?

Is that the one time he didn't take ivermectin, or is it just the time that he that it matters enough to mention because it's the time he got ill?

How many times did he not take the prophylaxis and because he didn't get ill, he just didn't remember it?

You know, these are the things that

these are why trials are done to control for this type of behavior

i i like to he says i think my body was so filled up with vitamins that even though i got it it was like preparation was there you know like i just see COVID walking in and pushing the saloon doors, walking in and seeing all the vitamins there and then just turns around and walks right back out the saloon doors.

I'm not interested in this gunfight.

This one's too heavy loaded for me.

Or like COVID walks into the barbershop and sees that the queue is just too filled with vitamins.

He's like, okay, no, I'm not going to wait for this.

I'll come back later when he's not taking the ivermectin.

And then that's what I'll learn.

I'll just have my wife trim my hair.

So he mentions this study.

And at the end, Jamie points out that this study is flawed.

I went looking for this study.

I couldn't find the exact study based on the wording that he was using there.

So from what Jaw said, the closest thing that I could find was a Nature article that was criticizing the reliance on pre-print studies.

It was behind a paywall.

I couldn't find a way behind the paywall for it.

So I think that might be the one that they're talking about.

The title was like Flawed Ivermectin Preprint Highlights Challenges of COVID Drug Studies.

So the fact that it says flawed in there, it makes me think it's that one.

So the thing about pre-print studies is these are studies that are submitted for peer review, but haven't yet been reviewed.

But they go up on a pre-print server before they're fully peer reviewed, before they're fully finished.

So you finish your work, it goes up, and while people are checking it, it's on there on a server.

That can be useful if you're in the middle of a pandemic and your findings might be urgent, perhaps because there isn't an effective treatment around at the moment, so you are looking to more emergency authorization uses of stuff.

So while the peer review and the print process takes a long time, you can have your data out there and your claims out there for other researchers to pick up on and say, okay, maybe this is something.

In the absence of anything, maybe this is something.

But equally, because it's pre-print and pre-peer reviewed, you've got to take those studies very tentatively because they haven't yet been fully checked.

And lo and behold, a lot of them get retracted when it turns out in this particular case that they were flawed in lots of different ways.

That's what we're talking about here.

That also happened with hydroxychloroquine, too.

There was a pre-print study that was going around that everybody was pointing to as like, this could be it.

And it was very early on in the pandemic.

So everybody was dying for something, literally dying for something to

change the course of what was happening.

And there was this preprint study that was going around and a bunch of people saw it.

And then when you actually looked into it, you're like, oh, okay, that's not anything.

And it wasn't anything.

And it turned out to be nothing.

So the only thing that it turned out to be was a controversy because our president at the time, Donald Trump, mentioned hydroxychloroquine as if it was a thing that worked for the people.

Yeah, that was Didier Bauz from the University of Marseille, I think.

And I think there was even

serious errors or potentially fraudulent data in those studies, too.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I want to mention too, immediately after this, Joe sort of says they're talking about these drips, these NAT drips.

And Joe promises to sort of hook Tom up with his guy.

And it sounds to me like he has to sell a certain number of these NA drips a month to sort of support his own habit.

He's like the guy you're buying weed from in college who buys a big bag so he could have some of his and then sells the rest to buy the whole thing.

It's pretty amazing.

All right.

So now they are going to talk more about these NADs and vitamin Cs.

I'm telling you, NAD drip and high-dose vitamin C and just all high-dose IV vitamins is phenomenal when you're sick because it just goes straight to your bloodstream.

And high-dose vitamin C in particular,

I've been told this by multiple doctors, it's just phenomenal when you're really sick.

Really?

Yeah, high-dose vitamin C, IV drip.

Okay.

Yeah.

I'm a big believer in these IV drips.

Yeah.

We already scheduled, because I have such a daunting

tour schedule, have scheduled vitamin drips for the tour.

Oh, that's a good move.

I learned about them from Chappelle.

Really?

And yeah, first time I went on tour with him,

we went out that night.

He goes hard.

He doesn't fuck around.

Yeah, yeah.

David goes hard.

They like to party.

They make the most out of life.

Let's put it that way.

They're out there drinking and partying.

Dave goes out to fucking six in the morning.

Yeah, but the thing is, he's up at nine with a cup of coffee.

I know.

Anybody got it?

Laughing.

Yeah.

Having a good time.

But

he's a giant believer in those trips, too.

And he didn't have a bad time of COVID either.

He said the vaccine, he got vaccinated after he got COVID.

And he said the vaccine hit him harder than the COVID did.

Wow.

Yeah.

Wow.

But that's often the case when people have had COVID and then they get vaccinated.

A lot of times it's a rough ride.

So I think this is actually really interesting to hear how else Joe is coming across his health misinformation.

We know he gets it on this show, but I don't think anyone had Dave Chappelle down as one of the roots into this health misinformation stuff, right?

But it just shows kind of what's happening in that kind of, in that, that circle of comedians in the world in which joe is inhabiting at the time and how these ideas get sort of passed around the rich and the wealthy you know the rich and the famous essentially um but also i wouldn't take health advice from someone who is regularly staying up till six in the morning drinking and smoking no kidding and then getting up at 9 a.m and i'm gonna say if you're working that long from three hours of sleep, it's probably not just drink and cigarettes that you're taking throughout.

And it's probably not the NAD drips either.

And at the end here, we get Joe's biases against vaccines.

You know, he knows someone who had a bad time with a vaccine.

Dave Chappelle had a bad time with the vaccine and an okay time of the virus.

And that carries weight with Joe because he wants it to, because he's already predisposed because of his biases to think, well, I don't trust the vaccine, but getting COVID isn't that bad.

So maybe it's better to just get COVID and get the natural immunity that way.

That's where he already was.

So this one anecdote, this one little data point becomes a tentpole for his beliefs in this area because he's predisposed to accept it.

So now they're going to be talking about

drinking and playing pool until 3.30 in the morning.

But meanwhile, I don't have a bad message.

My message is be healthy.

And obviously there's some merit to that, you know, and merit to being consistently healthy.

You know,

here's a message.

The thing that fucked me is drinking.

I think that really fucked me.

I bet if I went home early, went to the hotel early Friday night and got sleep like I normally do, I bet it would have never got me.

You think so?

Yeah, I was hammered.

we're out playing pool till like i said 3 30 in the morning

i mean you know i love playing pool so yeah i'll play pool till i'm fucking exhausted oh my god

he's saying my message is be healthy that's my message your message is be rich joe that's not your mess your message is to be healthy being healthy is a byproduct of being rich man yeah also your message isn't necessarily healthy since you're suggesting people take unproven drugs to deal with the side effects for a sickness they don't that they actually don't actually prevent Yeah.

I also love that he says it was, it was the drink that did it, you know, because he was so hammered.

It would have never have got him if he'd, if he'd had not been drinking, like his defenses were down, like he was too drunk to see the COVID coming, like it snuck up on him.

He'd only been so alert that he'd have seen that COVID coming, but he'd had a couple of drinks, you know.

I think it's the same saloon metaphor, except for inside there's a bar fight going on between his drinking and his vitamins.

And so the COVID just walked right through everybody.

I think that's what happened.

Yeah.

And then over on the piano is the JFK conspiracy theory.

Just playing the piano and then COVID walks in and it just, it stops.

RFK is just doing pull-ups in the background for some reason.

We don't even know why.

All right.

Now

they're talking about vaccination status in this particular episode.

I have a bunch of gigs coming up where I've been notified by the promoters that the state is dictating you have to show up with proof of vaccination and or negative tests.

I would be fine if it was and or.

But like New York City is the most stupid.

They're doing it.

They're so fucking dumb because there's people that have had natural infection, which offers more protection than the vaccine.

Look, there's people that got vaccinated in July, right?

Eight months ago.

Yeah.

Nine now, right?

Nine, or excuse me, January.

They got vaccinated in January, nine months ago.

And

they...

They can go anywhere and do anything.

And then there's people who were infected with the disease two months ago they have much more protection and those people can't go anywhere you can't go to restaurants you can't go to live shows it should be anybody's or proof of vaccination and really legitimately it should be a negative test because we know that if people have been vaccinated they still get it

yeah look The thing is,

if you get sick with COVID, then how do you prove it?

Do you just say, I was, like, COVID doesn't give you a punch card after you're done.

That's not how it works.

I did say later on, he brings up antibodies or whatever, but is he

seriously suggesting we test every single person at a venue, especially large venues?

That might be very difficult.

Well, true, but bear in mind, this is September 2021.

I don't know how full the large venues were, whether it was still sort of phased returns, different podcasts.

I guess that's true.

Yeah.

And at the time, it wouldn't have been a bad idea.

I mean, we had the COVID app in the UK, and you would be able to enter a negative test number into the app.

And for a while, it was you take a test, you register the number into

the app, and it will say, Yeah, you took a test.

And here's a little QR code to say you've taken a test within the last X number of hours.

You've had a negative test with the next.

That's great.

Yeah, it was pretty decent.

Do you know what it was called at the time?

A vaccine passport.

That's what people labeled it.

It was a vaccine passport.

And people were very much against that idea.

No kidding.

Yeah, and one of those people, Joe Rogan, from two weeks after this interview, I actually found him complaining about the exact sort of system that

he's talking about.

I don't know if you've got the clip here of him complaining.

I do want to play this.

And they don't understand where this goes.

It's like where people are saying the people that

have been vaccinated that want a vaccine passport.

Yes, we should have a vaccine passport.

I've been vaccinated.

That's not going to, it's only going to help me.

I did my part.

I took one for the team and I went out and got vaccinated to be a good citizen.

Those people who didn't, fuck them.

We should have a vaccine passport.

But here's the problem with it.

The vaccine passport, it doesn't end there.

It's going to keep going.

And it's going to lead to some sort of a social system.

You're going to have a social credit system similar to what they have in China.

So, Joe, this idea of making everybody prove that they don't have it before you get into an event, that's going to lead to a social credit system similar to what they have in China.

And we can, with the luxury of the four years between that interview and now, look back over those four years and ask, did it lead to a social credit system like it has in China?

No.

COVID diminished, didn't fully go away.

People acted like it completely went away.

All of the restrictions, all the rules went away, and we didn't end up locking people down and monitoring their every single move.

But yeah, the method that Joe was talking about for checking, he actually argued essentially again to two weeks later.

On the good side, we did get a lot more anti-vaxxers out of COVID.

So that's a benefit.

Health industry.

Yeah, absolutely.

You exported them around the world.

It's one of the last remaining great American exports.

We sure did.

Make them, everybody great that's what we do all right uh now this is something that they they move on to pretty quickly afterwards and this also to me these two clips aren't necessarily tied but they should be because joe's talking about natural immunity but then they immediately shift over into variants

Well, and then there's these other variants that you keep hearing about where the vaccine has no effect on it.

Yeah, because there's rumors.

There was the Delta, which I thought that was the end-all.

and then now there's another variant.

There's a couple other ones.

There's something called the Lambda, apparently, and then there's something else.

Was it the MU variant or something?

Mu, and then the C, there's a number one

C2, 6, 1.

Fun, fun, fun times.

Great.

Yeah.

Who the fuck knows?

Who the fuck knows?

Apparently, the company that originally made ivermectin is working on something that's like similar to ivermectin.

That's an antiviral treatment that you take, but they'll have a patent on it, so it'll be promoted.

Well, the other thing about ivermectin is it's

like you should get royalties.

That's just my own point of view.

I shouldn't.

It's nothing to do with me.

Pierre Corey and all these people that have been actually treating people with it.

It's just what's really strange is these people that are not doctors that are super confident that it does nothing.

When these doctors who are treating people mostly not doctors that have the strongest opinions about all of this.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

It's wild out there, man.

Yeah.

Okay, look, he's suggesting that people are that don't have any

idea about they're not doctors and they have the strongest opinion.

It's because they were listening to doctors.

And the doctors, most doctors were saying, don't do that.

There's bad, you can have bad side effects.

It can, it can probably fuck you up if you take too much of it because you're not a doctor and you won't know how to dose it properly.

So you probably fuck yourself up if you do that way.

And

look, look, it's not doing anything.

Like we, we have no, no information, no information whatsoever that this actually works.

So you have an opportunity to screw yourself up and it doesn't, we don't see that it works.

Probably stay away from it.

And he somehow thinks that when people hear that from most doctors, that that's just sort of, well, you know, these people, they're just poo-pooing everything.

You know, they just, they'll just put a pin in anything.

And Joe believes, like you suggested earlier, one doctor over a wide swath of doctors who said it was a terrible idea to do.

Yeah, and he's so kind of evangelical about Ivermecton that even his mate is saying you should get royalties on it.

Joey's one of the people who aren't doctors, who have very strong opinions on it.

So he's exactly that person.

Yeah.

And I wanted the reason why I think this clip and the previous clip are tied together too is they're talking about how COVID gives you natural immunity.

And you're like, yeah, you know, there is something to be said about natural immunity from COVID.

The problem was, is there was these variants.

So you could have natural immunity to COVID, but then the variant gets whipped up in a bunch of humans and it gets spun around so that

you could get it again

when you still had what you thought was natural immunity because you weren't immune to the variant that got spun up in other people.

So

that's how this sort of thing works.

That's why we needed boosters.

That's why we needed new vaccines as the pandemic was going on.

These guys think it's like earlier when you were suggesting that Nobel Prize winning

thing, that should be able to cure anything because it won a Nobel Prize.

They think this is one thing.

They think it's just a single thing and it's not an evolving virus that is working its way through the human population and changing as it goes.

Yeah.

And also the idea of natural immunity is, well, the best way to not get it is to get it.

and then you won't get it.

It's like, yeah, but

you've already got it by that.

But if the goal is to not catch the disease, catching the disease is not a good way of achieving that goal.

So maybe you don't

you never want to develop natural immunity when there are artificial immunities that are just as good

all right so this is the last clip in the in the main section um this was talking about uh how quickly joe got better and it's that they don't care this is my my situation is a perfect example because they don't care if you get better It's how you got better and whether or not you did what I told you to do.

Because if it was just, oh, look what he did and he got better so quick, people would actually be asking me and celebrating and examining how I approached it.

Yeah, that's interesting that there's no narrative about that.

No, it's just like, I mean, what are the, what is the, what's the excuse for why I got better quick?

I'd like to hear it.

I mean, I literally got better with no treatments.

Yeah.

Because you had that other variant, though, the alpha.

Yeah, that's true.

Which they think was like, that was the one to catch.

Look, some people do just get better, and some people had COVID for a long time and they had lingering effects for a long time.

You know, it affected different people differently.

So, asking, well, what were you doing and what worked for you?

That's kind of useless because it's so unique as to how it's going to play out in any given person, depending on your own immune system and your baseline health, and what other comorbidity you had, and also what level of a dosage, like whatever, what level of exposure you got, what level of a viral load you had.

It's all so different.

That you that just looking to see, well, Joe did this, this IV drip, that must be the thing.

That's not going to be the useful way of looking at it.

Yeah.

Like he suggests it's all anecdote, right?

Tom says he got better with nothing.

He didn't do anything.

He literally got the disease, felt like he's, I don't think he said he even really felt sick, to be honest.

And then he wound up getting out and he didn't do anything and he got better.

And Joe, Joe did like 600 things.

He opened up a giant pantry full of IV drips and threw himself in there and then popped a bunch of different types of medicines.

So which one do you follow?

Right.

They're two totally different like suggestions and they're making it sound like, well, you can't believe anything though.

Yeah.

And so maybe what we should do is instead of looking at Joe's case and Tom's case, we should ask maybe thousands of people at once and then maybe control for which ones were rich enough to be able to fully rest.

And then we could see what really helps.

And when we do that, it's called a study.

And that's the stuff we should be doing, not listening to what Pierre Corey said on Joe Rogan.

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Wow.

So that's the tool bag?

And something just fell out of the tool bag?

Okay, so for the toolbox this week, we're actually going to be talking about Joe's disagreement with CNN.

So this is happening right after CNN runs a story on him.

And we're going to cover very specifically the clips where he talks about how the media is changing and how his opinion of the media is changing.

I think this is a great basis to understand Joe's philosophy and understanding and media diet.

We're We're going to find all that stuff out as we play the few clips in this toolbox section.

All right.

So let's start out talking about the news.

We're fucked.

Yeah.

We're fucked in so many ways.

We're fucked with the news.

I mean, come on.

The news today is so squirrely.

It's so hard to find out what's true and what's not true.

Yeah.

That's that is one of the ones that gets to me the most because I feel like it used to be not like that.

Maybe we just didn't pay attention.

Maybe, maybe.

But I just did also just to feel like, you know, our news broadcasters that did the news just used to fucking, you didn't know about their point of view.

Right.

Like now you know

this is a left-leaning guy or gal, and this is the right-leaning person.

And it's like, it's supposed to be someone, like news is supposed to be objective.

It's like, this is what happened.

There's no, especially in the left, there's none of that.

That doesn't exist.

No, there's on either side, really, though.

It's just like, you know, they, the way, even the way that they deliver the news, like, you, why am I seeing your personality shine through?

Exactly.

It's the news they're like, are you seeing this shit that Biden said?

It's like, well, dude, what happened?

Tell me what happened.

Yeah.

And you actually have to really dig for that.

I remember it said one time that you like the best way to consume U.S.

news is to leave the country.

Like get your news from overseas where they're like, here's the story.

Yeah.

Because it's so colored with bias in the country that you live in.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

I mean, I think Tom actually brings up some pretty, pretty good points here.

But when he's talking about bias, Joe is saying, oh, it's especially bad on the left.

But imagine thinking that the issue here, the issue over there, Robert, is that there is too much personality in left-wing news.

And look, I'm overseas, so I'm not in the U.S.

I'm consuming U.S.

news from not in the country.

But I can tell you that for all of the biases of Rachel Manow and and Jake Tapper, that's all wildly overshadowed by Tucker Carlson, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Megan Kelly, you know, and that's just Fox News alone.

Whose persona impacts their news delivery more?

Wolf Blitzer or Bill O'Reilly?

I think it's pretty clear.

It's also interesting, too, because he's making it seem like news, even if it's just reporting what happened, doesn't have a slant.

And that's just not true.

Like all editorial, all anything that gets edited edited has a slant, period.

Because somebody who's editing it has to decide what the most important pieces of that are and then distribute that to other people.

And they do that through the biases of their own experience, right?

So

the editor in that situation is doing it.

The person who's out there collecting the information, they're doing it as well.

all news has a bias even the in fact the the order in which they play the news to you if it's just the evening news that has a bias.

That has a thing that they are so to think that it's sort of clinical when you're just hearing someone sort of read off what's happening, they're missing all the other stuff that goes into presenting the news to you.

You can't get unbiased news.

You have to bring your own critical thinking to the news and then distill it down.

You can't just watch it and be like, feed my brain information and then just sit there and wait for it to fall into you.

Yeah, I think so.

And it is an interesting kind of aspect of how news has changed, in particular over the last, say, 20 to 30 years, because news historically used to always be seen as, look, first of all, you'd see the news from yesterday at the most recent because you'd buy a news picture, which means you were seeing what happened kind of yesterday.

You weren't getting breaking news.

You weren't getting live stuff.

You weren't getting kind of having to fill 24-hour news cycles.

That is going to feed more opinion generally anyway.

Absolutely.

And it was kind of widely agreed that the news was an incomplete list of some of the things that happened somewhere yesterday described as accurately as possible.

And if it's wrong, we'll correct it tomorrow.

That was kind of how the news was.

And now people expect news to be instant, comprehensive, and completely free.

And you can't have that and expect a quality service.

So the news is changing, but it's not changing because of the forces that Joe's identifying here.

Okay, so now they're going to talk about watching CNN abroad.

Now, these next clips, like we suggested earlier, these clips are all kind of right after one another.

So this is them continuing on with that conversation.

Yeah, that makes makes sense.

I mean, for the longest time, like people were turning to RT and Al Jazeera to get U.S.

news.

Dude, even if you go international and you turn on CNN International, it's nothing like the CNN that's broadcasted in the States.

Really?

Absolutely not.

They have different hosts?

100%.

Can you watch that?

I don't know if you can watch it here, but I've traveled and it's just like from Hong Kong and there's like two anchors that you don't see regularly.

And they're just like reading prompters.

It's just a news story.

Yeah, there's none of that here anymore.

So I don't know if he's just not taking into account time zones.

Like, Rachel Mannows asleep during Hong Time, Hong Kong time.

Maybe that's why you're seeing different people.

And she's

possibly.

All right.

That's a slightly trite point.

So here's a slightly more serious one.

Joe in this bit here.

shows us that he doesn't understand that RT, Russia today, is not a reliable source

for news about the US.

It is literally Russian propaganda.

And the fact that Joe can't see that suggests that he's not very good at working out where media bias is applying and how media bias is applying.

And also, it's also suggesting that the propaganda is working.

We've seen Joe repeat Russian propaganda on this show that we've been able to trace back to Russian propaganda.

He can't tell that RT is a propagandist channel.

He thinks it's just another source of news.

Yeah, that's a great catch that he thinks is trustworthy.

You know, it's, it's,

Joe is not good at understanding media bias if he shits shits on the left wing in the previous clip and then he swallows what RT is putting out, especially in 2021 when they were full of misinformation.

And the thing is, he might say, well, I don't think RT is trustworthy, but I don't think any of it is trustworthy.

But that would be to say that that's kind of a false equivalence to say that, well,

the ways in which he would think that left-wing news isn't trustworthy are substantially different.

They're orders of magnitude smaller than the real untrustworthiness of Russia today.

Left-wing news might make some false facts, like make some false assumptions here and there, might get some facts wrong, might come from a particular certain bias.

But

RT is intentional propaganda, and it's an order of magnitude different.

Okay, so now they're going to talk about Fox News.

I think that the problem is personality

sells, right?

Fox nailed it.

Yeah.

They really changed the game with it.

When Ailes built this, you know, created that network and was like,

give me these

personality, And that did crazy ratings.

Then you have the competition going, we need to do that too.

And then it just became something that took off.

Fox figured out the ice princesses.

Yeah.

Super hot Republican women that are really cruel.

Yeah, that's true.

And they're all blonde.

There's something about that.

Short skirts.

There's something about that that is undeniably hot.

Like, why is that?

Like, why do we like those no-nonsense, super smart, hot, blonde women in short skirts?

I mean, you're speaking my language here, man.

I fucking love that.

Take that shit off.

There's something about that.

I love a blonde with attitude, man.

Do you?

Yeah.

Mean blonde with attitude with perfect toes.

Give it to me.

Isn't that weird that you could see their toes?

Like, there's no other, you know, there's nothing like that in the male world.

I do not object.

I don't object either.

I'm not saying it's negative, but it's odd.

that they figured out that formula and it took so long,

you know?

But once they opened up that pandora's box like we're kind of yeah a lot of people were like i guess i like news

yeah

no they did they figured out this formula that well it just figured out that that's what gets eyeballs man yeah so yeah fox webcracked that enigma of put an attractive lady in a revealing outfit how did they do it those geniuses of fox

Yeah, I mean, they just made news entertaining.

And

there's a movie, if you've never seen it, it's called Network.

It's a movie that predicted Fox 30 years before Fox went big.

And they predict all the things that we consume as media in this movie, you know, a long time ago.

This was not a secret.

This is something that they consciously went out of their way to do.

And they've created this and very much created the exact same, like every single show is like a carbon copy of the other show.

Just once in a while, you'll take the girl out.

Like the girl won't be on stage for a little while.

And then they bring her back out once.

I mean, it's literally the same show over.

Yeah, or they'll change it for someone who looks functionally identical because she's part of the fuck playbook.

But the other thing that's interesting here is they talk about, oh, this formula.

That's not a formula that does get copied across the news spectrum.

These are criticisms that they're applying broadly, but you don't know what Rachel Maddow's tours look like, Joe.

You don't.

They've got some valid points here about how the news is presented, but their criticisms apply to a handful of channels on the right, but they're generalizing them across the entirety of the media and then using them to invalidate the media of the left that they disagree with, which is an interesting game to play.

The thing that the right is doing, that's what the media does, and that's why you can't trust the left, is kind of the argument they're making here.

Okay, this next clip is talking about, you know, whether or not the people who are giving the news to you, what kind of personality they have.

And also, the format of this thing that you have to do for seven minutes before you go to commercial.

Because you have these little bursts.

So you have to catch people's attention and maintain it for these bursts where you'll hold them through the commercials so they'll return after the commercials.

Because if

they take off during the commercials, then you're fucked.

Because then you're not going to be able to get the ad revenue money.

They need to know that you're there.

So they need to know that you're tuning in based on their personalities, whether it's Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity or whoever it is that you agree with.

Well, that's the thing is that the

or hate, the people we used to watch news, they'd be like, I need to know what's going on in the world, right?

That was the idea of news.

You tuned in when I was a kid, it was Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, right?

And then CNN wasn't known as the CNN of today.

No.

It was just round, it was the idea of round-the-clock news.

CNN was news that was like objective and clear.

It was anchors just reading prompter man.

And you didn't know anything about them.

You didn't know which way they thought or leaned.

But now what you're talking about is that people go, I want to watch somebody that I agree with.

Exactly.

And I want to get angry with them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I want to get angry.

I want to get fired up about the shit that I'm fired up about and have somebody smarter than me break it down for me.

Yeah.

Explain to me why I'm so angry.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's totally different.

Joe says he's like, you got to get these seven-minute things because then you got to go to commercial.

The other option, Joe, is that you could just drop your Express VPN ad mid-sentence while you're speaking.

That's the other option you could do.

Look, these people are comparing what a broadcast news station does to CNN and like Fox news opinion shows.

Those are totally different things.

There's still, on my channels, all the channels that I have, you still have a five and a six and a 10 o'clock news, and they're all local, right?

Those are all local news.

And then there's also still world news on our TVs.

Normally around like 6.30 is when the world news hits on our television here in the Central Time.

And so, and the thing is, they don't know who the Tom Broca is of today because they're not watching that show.

But there is a guy who's filming what Tom Broca used to do in the World News Report on ABC.

So, there's an ABC World News.

You can go watch it.

I don't know who it is either because I don't watch it, but genuinely, there's still world news that happens on those stations.

It's pretty much the exact same thing that's been happening forever.

They just don't watch that stuff anymore.

And

they're sort of suggesting that everything is personality news driven.

It isn't.

There's a lot of news out there that you can consume that has nothing to do with the personalities.

A lot of your local news that covers world events will do this.

You could just watch that instead of watching these big networks.

Yeah, I think that's true.

And I think, I wonder even, does Joe Rogan actually watch Fox News?

Where does Joe Rogan encounter Fox News?

Is he more likely to be encountering it on Twitter, on the clips that are going viral because they are outrageous bait, because they're doing that.

And so he's, again, he's writing off all of the media based on, if I'm right, the little clips that he sees that are designed to make him kind of angry and outrage and things like that.

But again, all of their examples here of personality-driven news were Fox News, and they still blame it on CNN because that's where the issue is with, you know, how Joe's feeling today.

Yeah.

And then when he talks about like people who he says, you know, you want someone that you want to, you want to watch someone that you agree with and you can get angry with.

Well, what is the Joe of today if not that a lot of the time?

We just covered his Graham Linehan show.

That is a good explanation of what that show was.

Someone I agree with, heck, and get angry with.

We covered his shows with Mark Andreessen, where Mark Andreessen was making Joe angry at the things that Mark was worried about, and then they were trying to make the audience angry.

So that Joe is following that same model of personality-driven, because it's very personality-driven, getting his fans to agree with him, and then making them angry about the things he's angry about, and vice versa.

Okay, this is the last clip.

This is trusting your news.

Like, how do we pull out of that?

That's the thing.

It's like, I don't know if people are ever going to start trusting the news again.

Oh, I think

that ship has sailed, man.

It kind of has, right?

But isn't that terrifying?

Of course it is.

Because that opens up the door to propaganda from all sorts of forms.

Look at

the absolute record level of misinformation on anything.

You bring up any topic.

And if you go online and search for it, you can find a hundred things that tell you that this is this way or the opposite way, people that agree with you, people that disagree with you.

And you have to do the work to find out who's full of shit.

Yeah.

You have to fucking work for it.

And that's never been the case.

No.

It's never, well, first of all, there was never the option, right?

Like

the news had a massive responsibility because they were the only way you got the news.

You either got it from television, which was kind of watered down, or you got it from the New York Times or the Post or the Boston Globe or wherever you lived where you read the newspaper that you trust.

Or then, you know, newspapers have dwindled.

Well, they've kind of got a little clickbaity too.

Oh, yeah, with headlines.

You click on headlines that have nothing to do with the article.

You read the article and you're like, what the fuck was that?

You just got hooked.

You got hooked by that wordplay, you know?

Yeah.

You just got hooked by bullshit.

Yeah.

You know, this whole situation where people are saying that I'm taking horse dewormer.

And we're back to the horse dewormer.

So, Joe, he's bringing up how a lack of mistrust, a lack of trust in the news, how it opens doors for propaganda from all sorts of foreign sources.

And I can't tell when he says that if he's making a criticism or if he's stating his booking policy for guests on the show.

Because trust, like having trust,

having, you know, mistrust in the news opens up doors for propaganda is basically what the Joe Rogan show is doing at times.

Joe has spent years undercutting trust in the media.

You can't trust any of them.

He's increasingly platformed sources of foreign propaganda and he's encouraged his fans to trust him more than they trust the real news because of the way that you can't trust the real news is bad for all these kind of reasons.

So it's sort of what he's doing here.

And he doesn't know that, and I think he was doing it at the time.

He's certainly been doing it over the last four years.

And then Tom even says in here, well, now these days you've got to work, you've got to do the work to find out who's full of shit.

Again, this is the defense that Joe is making when he platforms someone who spreads misinformation.

He apparently trusted his audience to take apart Cash Patel's points.

And that's why Joe didn't push back.

So he deflects any criticism by saying, hey, I'm just a guy.

People shouldn't take my word for things.

They should go off and do

the work for themselves to find out whether it's true or not.

But then he constantly shits on the places that people would go to look for real facts.

So

how are they going to fact check and do the work for themselves and see whether Cash Patel was true or not?

If the places that are going to give them the real information you've said are lying and shouldn't be trusted and

you've

eroded the trust on.

I'm the last person that thinks I'm smart.

Trust me.

Kmarsh, something good?

Yeah, I found something good.

There's a portion where they talk about abortion bans and how abortion bans make no sense, how they're religiously motivated laws, which is a terrible thing, that women should have full control over their own body.

All of these things are really good.

They seem to genuinely believe that.

They are really sort of saying, I don't know where these laws have come from.

I think they're wrong.

We'll talk about them, in fact, in the gloves off segment.

So I think that's really good.

They recognize that these things are designed to control women, that they're coming from

a religious minority, essentially, in the U.S., and that they're a bad thing to spread out across America.

The problem is then Joe undercuts all of that by saying he'd rather have the abortion ban than any of the COVID controls.

So again, he's telling us ultimately where his values lie.

But at least they were on the right side of the abortion issue.

And they were doing so very publicly in a place where I think it would be valuable for people to have heard that.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

I like that portion too.

There's a lot of stuff that leaks into this that seems a lot more left than what we've seen Joe talk about.

I don't know if that was the guest at the time.

And like I suggest, this guest, I don't know much about him, but I do know that there's certainly a little bit of a right turn with the people that they've talked about and the sort of the things that he's mentioned on his Twitter feed.

One of the things that I found really interesting about this show was their discussion of comedy and bilingual comedy.

I thought that was a really interesting portion of this.

They're talking about comedy and how, you know, Tom happens to be bilingual and writing jokes in Spanish is very different than writing jokes in English and having to have native speakers that would talk to him through how to say things.

And then he has a whole Spanish language podcast and there's multiple times he refers to speaking

his second language multiple times.

So it's a really interesting

thing to hear somebody talk about how their mind thinks of things differently in comedy based on the language in which they're doing it.

And I just thought it was interesting.

I thought that was a whole, that was actually really great to hear them discuss that sort of stuff.

Yeah, no, I completely agree.

So that is it for the show this week.

Remember that you can access more than half an hour of bonus content every single week from as little as a dollar an episode by subscribing at patreon.com forward slash no rogan.

At the higher tier, you also get a monthly bonus show.

We're going to be recording the August monthly bonus show very, very soon.

So you can check that out also at patreon.com forward slash no Rogan.

And then, meanwhile, you can hear more from Cecil at Cognitive Dissonance and Citation Needed.

And you can hear more from me at Skeptics with a K and the Skeptic podcast.

And so, we'll be back next week for a little more of the No Rogan experience.

If you love the show, please rate and share it.

If you want to get in touch with us, become a patron, or check out the show notes, go to norogan.com.

K-N-O-W-R-O-G-A-N dot com.

Experimental.

Me correlation.

Okay,

so three.

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