#0035 - Candace Owens

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On this episode, we cover the Joe Rogan Experience 1125 with guest Candace Owens.

The No Rogan Experience starts right now.

Welcome back to the show.

It's a show where two podcasters with now 105 hours of Rogan experience get to know Joe Rogan.

It's a show for those who are curious about Joe Rogan, his guests, and their claims, as well as for anyone who wants to understand Joe's ever-growing media influence.

I'm Cecil Cicarella, joined by Michael Marshall.

Today we're going to be covering Joe's May 2018 interview with Candace Owens.

So Marsh, how did Joe introduce Candace in the show notes?

So according to the show notes, Candace Owens is the communication director for Turning Point USA, which is an American conservative nonprofit organization whose stated mission is to educate students about true free market values.

Huh.

Well, is there anything else we should know about Candace Owens?

Yeah, Yeah, I think so.

So we're actually going to hear a lot about Candace Owens' backstory in this show.

But she does miss from all of that the fact that in 2015, she was running a website called Degree 180, where she had a column that expressed liberal outrage talking points about conservatives before she did her own 180 to become an outspoken and celebrated conservative.

And that was in her mid-20s.

So she was actually sort of sharing the kind of leftist outrage before she switched to right-wing stuff.

Her rise to the level of prominence that she was at was incredible, incredibly quick.

It happened incredibly fast.

So yeah, in 2015, she's running this sort of liberal website.

By late 2017, she was producing pro-Trump commentary and criticizing notions of structural racism,

systemic inequality, and identity politics, which were all positions that she'd been pushing on her own website two years earlier.

So complete vault fast here.

In September 2017, she launched Red Pill Black, which is a website and YouTube channel, which was designed to promote black conservatism.

And in November 2017, Turning Point USA founder Charlie Kirk announced her as the organization's Director of Urban Engagement.

And that appointment came in the wake of allegations of racism at Turning Point.

And so some have fairly questioned whether Candace Owens was elevated at such a young age for her talents or for what she could represent for conservatives.

This interview with Rogan took place in May 2018.

So less than a year after she started posting political material that was pro-Trump.

She goes from not being a right-winger at all to being on Rogan.

That is a meteoric rise.

And we're actually going to come back in this interview to whether we feel that rise was based on her searing talent alone.

But at this interview, she actually decried the Black Lives Matter movement as being whiny toddlers pretending to be oppressed for attention.

She said they were all being paid to protest by George Soros.

She's backed police officers against accusations of police brutality towards black people.

And then in 2019, she described the KKK as a democrat terrorist organization.

Sure.

There's a lot more that we could mention.

I will add, she's currently being sued by Brigitte Macron, the wife of Emmanuel Macron, after Owen said, quote, After looking into this, I would stake my entire professional reputation on the fact that Brigitte Macron is in fact a man, unquote.

She was then warned in a legal letter to apologize for those claims.

And rather than apologize, she decided to publish an eight-part seven-hour YouTube series called Becoming Brigitte, which has now been viewed nearly five million times, where she doubles down on the libel and goes into details on her supposed beliefs.

Wow, that is a shovel that she is using to dig a nice deep hole.

I figured when she said I would stake my entire professional reputation, that is not all in for everybody.

That's a tiny little thing, you know?

What did they talk about?

So they talked a lot about racial issues in America.

That was a lot of the

conversation.

But they also in there talk about her backstory.

They talk about the time she's insulting left-wing female comedians, her assumptions that the Gamergate victims were faking their abuse, and also how Jay-Z and Beyonce are definitely in a conspiracy to sell up black people for power and money.

And she also talks about how she used to be very left-wing when she she was younger and also quite right-wing and also entirely apolitical, depending on which part of the conversation you're listening to at any given point.

They also talk about how funny and smart Ben Shapiro is and how awesome Charlie Kirk is.

And then they argue about climate change, but we're actually going to cover that on a future show.

Okay, so before we get to our main event, we want to say thanks to our Area 51 all access past patrons.

That is Mike Fish.

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Tax-free nuclear beer run,

Levin Gruthius, Stone Banana, definitely not an AI overlord, and Laura Williams.

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I also want to mention too that we were just recently on the Fallacious Trump podcast, and that will be coming out soon as well.

So keep your eyes peeled for that.

I want to mention that all those people I just mentioned, they subscribe to patreon.com/slash no rogan, and you can do that too.

All patrons get early access to episodes, special patron-only bonus segments each week.

And this week, we're going to be talking about how Candace talks about Gamergate, more outrage, and Joe's current employment status.

Check it out at patreon.com/slash no rogan.

But for now, our main event.

Huge thank you to this week's Veteran Voice of the Podcast.

That was Pissmitz, announcing our main event.

Remember that you too can be on the show by sending a recording of you giving us your best rendition of it's time send that to no rooganpod at gmail.com that's k-n-o-w and let us know how you'd like to be credited okay so i think uh podcasting is the only media where you can genuinely put out a you know big shout out to pismitz thanks for all your support pismits

there's no other media that allows you to do that it really is it really is my other company is called glory hole studios so yeah and this is it's like it's right up my alley admittedly okay it's not like there's a museum with a little plaque saying you know this entire exhibition is with the kind participation of Pismitz.

It's the only podcast.

You go to one of those stadiums and there's a brick and it just says Pismits on it, you know?

All right.

Thank you, Pismitz.

We appreciate it.

All right.

So now let's get into this.

So now this whole main event segment, Marsh, we pulled all these clips because these were the ones that were sort of focusing on race.

She spends a lot of time in this.

I mean, I would say over half of this episode is them talking about race, and so we did our best to sort of curate some of these clips because it phases in and out of the conversation.

It's not like a hundred percent about race, but there is multiple times it gets brought back to race, and so we sort of weaved our way through this entire episode.

Then, there's also some more racism in our toolbox section, which is on what about is, and we're going to cover that later on.

But this beginning portion, this is Candace Owen's sort of origin story.

How did she,

why did she become the person that she is?

And this is the first

relatively early on in the show, this is her telling her origin story.

So I was the quote-unquote victim of a hate crime when I was in high school.

When you say quote-unquote victim, you're like, I hate the word victim.

No, I hate the word victim.

And it's, I'm like, and again, early, I can see why early on I've sort of developed this mentality that like being a victim, there's no value in being a victim.

And people rush to call people a victim.

They rush to call somebody the aggressor.

So how do you describe it?

That you experienced a hate crime?

I experienced something that was labeled a hate crime.

I wouldn't even call it hate crime.

I think we live in a label-obsessed culture and before we seek to understand what happened, we seek to like put it in a box.

Yeah, like

someone has to be a demon, someone has to be an angel.

So what happened was I received some voicemail messages from about four kids and that like, you know, the language was, it was pretty strong.

It was like, we're going to tar and feather your family.

We're going to put a bull in the back of your head.

We did to Martin Luther King, like, you know, N-word, N-word, N-word.

And you received these on your phone?

On my cell phone, yeah.

How'd they get your phone number?

Although there was a prank phone call, so I didn't know.

I was like four male voices, and I was like in high school at the time, and I was like, okay, like, I cannot think of four human beings that want me dead that would say, like, we're going to put a bullet in the back of your head, like we did to Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, like, name it.

Were you going to school?

Where were you?

What part of the country?

Stanford High School in Connecticut.

Okay, that's a shithole.

Yeah, yeah, it's a total shithole.

I hate Connecticut.

Okay, well, a little Connecticut hate bonding there.

That was nice.

That is a hate crime.

She says, you know, she opens it out with quote unquote victim, right?

Because she doesn't want to be known as a victim.

And she's, you know, that's a personal thing.

I'm not going to

talk about that portion.

But then when he says, well, what about the hate crime?

And she's like, well, that's what they called it.

That's what they labeled it as.

If somebody calls you up and says they want to put a bullet in the back of your head and then uses racial slurs, that is a hate crime.

That's not like, that's not like pussyfooting around to like fine language or attack somebody because of that.

No, that's literally a hate crime.

And she says, you know, we're so quick to judge.

And you're like, quick to judge a death threat?

They literally sent you a death threat via your phone.

That's a really awful thing to do.

And that needs to, there needs to be some disciplinary action.

The way she's talking about it just seems so flippant to me.

Yeah, I agree.

And I think the thing is, like, this is obviously many years.

You know, this is quite a few years after

that took place.

And once you'd already become this big conservative talking head, I can imagine at the time this was incredibly traumatized, and this would be.

And I could also see that there are some people who would say, you know, some things that get labeled hate crimes, I don't see them as that bad.

Even people who would be on the receiving end of those kind of things would say, okay, that's not a hate crime.

It's something bad, but it's not a hate crime.

This is unequivocally a hate crime.

I mean, once you're yelling, once four men or even four young guys are yelling the n-word and threatening to put a bullet in your head and referencing your race specifically, there is no other way to think about this than a race, than a hate crime.

So it really does make you question what has happened in the intervening years between her initial response to this, which was to feel traumatized and she talks about being kind of like scared by it and stuff, to where she is now or where she's saying she is when she's talking to Joe Rogan once she's become this huge conservative figure at this point.

Yeah.

And

I have to question whether or not her views on it have to do with where she is.

You know, you got to listen to where she is now and wonder why she's downplaying this sort of thing.

Is it because some of those people might be paying her car payment now?

I don't know.

But man, it sure seems like you're downplaying something that seems pretty severe.

Okay, so they move on to talk about why this particular story about her blew up in the media.

But unfortunately for me, one of the people in the car happened to be the current governor of Connecticut's son.

Oh.

So this turned from like some kids' prank called to like said some awful things to like front page of the newspaper throughout the entire state of Connecticut, a little bit in New York, NAACP outside of my school.

I have to, it was like this situation that was talk about outrage culture, my first like introduction to outrage culture and the things that sort of formed my thoughts.

Like this was a very formative experience of my life, which to me was, it was non-political, but it was like my life wasn't mine.

Like I went from like sitting down watching, I was watching Talladega Nights with my boyfriend to being the most discussed person in the state state of Connecticut.

And what was interesting about it was just that because it was the governor of Connecticut's son that was in this car, they had to get the FBI involved to determine the authenticity of the voice.

Like maybe she called herself.

Instead of just saying like, yes, it was my son, he actually let the FBI investigate for six weeks and waited for his son to get arrested six weeks later.

You know what I mean?

Did his son deny it?

They just want to see if they could get away with it.

This is politics.

You know what I mean?

Like, can we get away with it?

Is it plausible for us to get away with it?

You know, so six weeks of the entire state, I didn't, I like left school.

People were like fighting on my behalf, fighting.

You left school?

You're like, I'm going to take a break.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

It was, it was just like a year.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Damn.

This was just like, it was like a monstrosity of a situation.

And

it's not outrage.

That is a crime.

And look, this is many years after the fact.

And it may well be that this is how she's kind of come to terms with that.

This is how she's processed it.

It may well be that this is genuinely how she feels about it.

And it's not for us to say

what somebody who's on the receiving end of a very obvious hate crime what they should think about it in the future.

That's their own kind of personal journey.

They can kind of accept it that kind of way.

What you can see very clearly, and even Joe picks this out, this must have been incredibly traumatizing for her.

She's saying at the time that she went from being just watching TV with her boyfriend to being the most talked about person in the state because of being in this kind of this lens, having to leave school and be homeschooled in her senior year.

So what age is that?

Like 15, something like that, something like that.

Well,

17, 18, somewhere around there, yeah.

yeah 17 okay so like these are major sort of life shifts that happened and i could also understand why somebody would come away from that as thinking i don't want to define myself by that because it was such a a big traumatic moment of my life all of that stuff i can understand what you can't do is write this off as simply outrage culture because outrage culture is somebody wore a uh a hat that was uh culturally appropriative and now we're gonna cultural appropriation now we're gonna sort of like have a discussion about whether that's appropriate or not there is nobody who would be

unsure whether calling someone up and calling the N-word and saying you're going to kill them is beyond the pale.

It is a bad thing.

Everybody would agree with that.

This is an outrage culture.

This is a crime.

And I want to jump in really quickly and sort of correct some of the language that she was using because she's saying that he was the governor.

And she does say at the beginning, the current governor.

But then while she's relaying the story, she says, because he was the governor's son, he wasn't the governor's son at that point.

He was the mayor's son.

Here's a quote from an article, quote, the boy who ultimately was charged in the case was in the car with several other kids.

So he didn't actually call.

He was just in the car with them.

And he was the son of the then mayor, Governor Daniel Malloy.

And the role of Malloy's son was never clear, but his simple presence made this story go viral, end quote.

And I'll post the link in the show notes for this.

You know, the way she's talking about it, it seems like she's saying, this is, you know, this was outrage culture.

This was, you know, this was a, a bunch of people blew this up.

I want to point out that her family sued the school district, Candace Owens.

I'm going to quote here, quote, Candace Owens and her father, Robert Owens, filed suit against the Board of Education in 2007.

So half a year after this happened

in New Haven.

They filed the suit, quote, for knowingly failing and refusing to protect her from from continued harassments from students who left death threats and racial and sexual slurs on her cell phone voicemail this past spring.

So, like, they brought up race as well.

So it was an important part of this case for them to get a settlement and to sue, and they won.

They actually won.

So, you know, she says it's outrage culture, but her family did sue the school for this.

So there's a, there's a, you're downplaying it here.

You're downplaying it now.

but at the time it was enough to get almost a $40,000 settlement from the school.

So

I don't want to poo-poo this and say like she's not taking it seriously enough.

And like you suggest, you know, it's a long time ago, but she is using language to make it seem like it's nothing.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, I do.

And like I say, for her to decide that she's no longer considering herself a victim, that is entirely reasonable.

She can make that kind of process alike, but she can't then say that the whole thing was just outrage culture, like it's kind of the viral viral story of the week with nothing really behind it.

You know, it's not, it's not a lady tweeting something before she gets on a plane.

It's kids making death threats at someone.

And as you say, they sued the school and they won that case over it.

So clearly there's something that somewhere down the line, people thought there was a there there for the school to answer.

Okay, so now more on this story.

But like, you know, forget the people that, whose lives we just like.

Now, do you know those people anymore?

I don't.

I know like the siblings of them because I was friends.

Like, that's the thing.

Like, one of the people that was involved, I was very good friends with his brother.

And it's like, you're just going to tell me this kid's a racist.

Like, I actually knew the kid's mother, you know, like, and nobody cared.

It was just the hot story.

They weren't necessarily racist, but they were just stupid and mean, stupid, and shitty kids.

And they knew that that was a way that they could scare you.

Right.

That they could just, yeah, and they might have been drunk, you know, like drunk.

Maybe it was their first beer, right?

But people

can do.

Well, the youngest was 14.

Oh, wow.

The youngest, and this person was labeled a racist.

Like, that's to me is like, that's harsh.

And people say, oh, you're forgiving.

How do you not label them a racist?

Because what they said was most certainly racist.

Yes, the words are racist, right?

Can somebody, I guess the question is, can somebody say something, say a word that is racist and not be a racist human being?

Yes.

No, I'm going to tell you why, yes.

Okay.

Okay.

So there's an interesting thing she does here as she is essentially given excuses.

And okay, look, these are 14-year-old kids.

Kids make really stupid fucking mistakes all the time.

That can happen.

That doesn't mean that what they did is right or anything like that.

It doesn't excuse anything, but these can be mistakes.

But she says they can't say he was a racist because I was good friends with his brother and I knew his mother.

Okay, but none of that has bearing on whether this kid had a racist ball in his body.

Because

people are different to their family.

But she does say, you know, can someone say something that's racist and not be a racist?

People can definitely say and do something racist without being a racist.

That's kind of how ingrained racism works, the idea that these ideas get embedded into society, these racist ideas, and we unconsciously perpetuate them.

So yeah, absolutely, that's possible.

I think Candace Owens actually advocates against that as a possibility, the idea of systemic racism and unconscious racism and those kind of biases.

I think she actually talks against those ideas.

But it is.

true that someone can do that.

Someone can also say racist stuff because they're a racist.

And it's about why people are doing that and also how they respond to having done so.

But the fact that you can say something racist without being a racist yourself necessarily, like a capital A, capital R racist, it's why some people refuse to accept it.

You know, they'll do the, well, I can't have had a racist thought because I know I'm not a racist.

Therefore, I didn't do something racist.

Therefore, someone who thinks that what I said was racist must be wrong because I can't say something racist because I am not a racist.

And people get into these kind of loops of self-defense rather than accepting that you and I will have perpetrated some racist thoughts throughout our lives and we'll do everything we can to try and stop that.

But that's how unconscious racism works.

That it's kind of embedded in society and you have to do the work to try and be aware of that and unpick it.

And also not calling those people on those things then perpetuates it, right?

So there's this, there's this whole thing where she says, you know, that person was labeled to race as a racist.

That's harsh for me.

You're letting that person off the hook without actually confronting those things that they did, those racist things they did.

You're going going to let them off the hook and that's what helps perpetuate all this so if you hold those people's feet to the fire for a minute and say look you made a mistake and and i'm not saying never forgive that person right i'm not saying that that person is unforgivable you know we need to cast them out and let them walk into the desert for 40 years i'm just saying like let that person hold that person to account for the things that they did you know if they have to apologize publicly if they have to do certain things to to make right the things they did, all the better, because then that makes them an example to other people it makes the other people see hey i shouldn't do this because that's a really shitty thing and these people that are going to hold me account to do when i do something like that it's all very important for our society to hold those people and to just let them off like this i think is actually a really bad call i think it's like something that like you suggest it just perpetuates this sort of thing and then more people are just like well i guess america's just racist then

yeah and you have to wonder with the company she keeps and she will talk and we'll cover the company that she keeps, whether giving space to people who would have been called, who've been called racist before is in her interest, given where she is at this point in her life.

When she's on, with Joe Rogan and she's touring with these big conservative actors and she's the conservative forces rather, and she's the communications director at Turning Point USA, hired after they themselves got accused of being a racist organization.

Maybe the communications director is doing a bit of communicating here on behalf of her organization.

Yeah, I think this beginning piece is really important to point out that something, something really happened to her that is, that is pretty, that a lot of people would consider very damaging.

And she is passing it off.

And now we get an opportunity to see the rest of what she has to say.

So let's move on to a clip about Ben Shapiro and Kanye West.

You know, like I hated, like, I got so annoyed with like the, the Kanye West, like four seconds.

He, like, writes an article saying Kanye West is just crazy.

I'm like, who did this?

Ben, yeah.

And I wrote wrote him an email.

I was just like, dude, like, I understand that to you and the way that you've done your life, this doesn't make sense, right?

But this is actually really important for black people to see.

The Kanye West thing?

It was the most important thing.

Which thing was it?

Him, like, you know, him tweeting out, I love the way Kennedy's not saying things, but beyond that, saying that he openly supported the president.

So I can see why Ben shuts something like that down initially, because to him, like, culture is not the way you talk about politics, right?

Like, because he's by the book.

But he has to understand that by the book is not the way people in the hood are being raised.

By the book, it's not the way people in the projects are being raised.

These people have had their families destroyed and decimated by the welfare system, right?

The fathers aren't even at the homes.

You know, the single motherhood rate jumped from 25% in 1965 to 74% today.

And so these kids turn to culture to father them.

They turn to Jay-Z and Beyonce and hip-hop and Kanye and to tell them what's right and what's wrong.

So for so long, because the left has had a stranglehold on culture, they've had a stranglehold on black America.

So the most significant thing that opened up this dialogue beyond the work that I i was doing was this like simple tweet and this simple show of support from kanye west and i was so frustrated that he had to he had to like in that moment just write like dismiss him as crazy it's just like dude like just be willing to learn like you know just be willing to say like i don't understand why the hell this is the way that this is black people wanting to talk about politics right but maybe there's something here

Yeah, Benji Payroll, stop calling Kanye West crazy.

How dare you say something like that?

Yeah, Kanye did not go on to do a lot of very super sane things after this moment.

There was a lot of

Kanye was in the news for all the wrong reasons after this.

Yeah, absolutely.

But you can hear when she's saying she's corresponding with Ben Shapiro over this and saying, like, just step back off this kind of thing.

What she's actually saying, if you listen between the lines, is kind of, don't fuck up my black conservative project here.

I'm trying to get conservatism seen as a value, a valid option for the black community of America.

And she even says you know he alongside the work that i was doing a massive uh win here was when kanye tweeted this thing so she's talking about the work that she was doing to try and represent conservatism in the black population and she's saying to ben shapiro please don't point out that kanye west is crazy because you're going to undo some of that uh that work and influence i've been working on here and she says this she says uh it's not the way people in the hood are being raised by the book is not the way people and the projects are being raised these people have had their families destroyed and decimated by the welfare system.

And here she is talking about social safety nets as if they're an evil thing, as if they're, you know, it's the fault of that social safety net that the black people in the black communities, they can't get ahead.

It's not the whole systemic racism thing.

It's that we coddled them by giving them welfare.

At least that's the implication I'm getting from that.

Yeah, 100%.

And bearing in mind that she works for Turning Point USA and their their point is all about, you know, spreading the true value of free markets.

And here she is absolutely on point for her job saying the real problem that marginalized communities in America have is too much welfare.

If they just had less welfare and more free market, they would free market themselves out of the hood, out of the project.

All right, we're going to take a short break.

We'll be back right after this.

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Okay, so now she introduces Joe to Charlie Kirk.

I always understood that culture was the most important vertical.

When Charlie and I first met and we sat down, I defined three verticals.

I don't know who Charlie is.

You mentioned him a couple times.

Charlie Kirk.

Okay, so Charlie Kirk is like this 18-year-old.

Like we started Turning Point USA, who I work for when he was 18.

And he is like a savant.

They call him like Trump's boy wonder.

Like he's a brilliant, if you want to talk about like smart, beyond, like the smartest person I know is Charlie Kirk, hands down.

And he's only 24.

He didn't, he didn't go to college, just like, I don't know, just like like was reading weird stuff when he was seven.

I don't know, like just like things that everyone's like, oh yeah, I just read that Thomas Soul.

He's like, yes, I read it when I was six.

You know, I'm like, what?

My child, could you not say that?

Could you be cool?

So I just want to just, before I let you go here, March, just pin in that three verticals.

Pin in that.

She says three verticals, pin in that for later.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But here we are talking about, you know, the super smart boy genius, Charlie Kirk, saying that he started Turning Point USA in 2012, you know, when he was just 18.

And he did.

He was one of the founders of Turning Point USA, the organization that Candace works for, when he was just 18, which is amazing.

He's a co-founder with his good friend, the 72-year-old businessman and Tea Party activist Bill Montgomery.

And they start it with nothing but their collective 18 and 72-year-old gumptions and money from conservative billionaire Foster Freis.

Amazing.

I'm sure it was the 18-year-old who was driving it and not the two elderly billionaires or elderly, incredibly wealthy guys.

Fun fact on Bill Montgomery, the co-founder of Turning Point, he died of COVID in July 2020.

It prompted Turning Point USA to have to delete a tweet that was mocking people who wore masks to prevent them getting COVID because he didn't wear a mask and he got COVID.

But the reason they have to play Charlie Cook as this incredible boy wonder genius who like built this thing all by himself is because that is the project.

Charlie Kirk is the person, the avatar for these very wealthy conservative organizations to reach out to young people.

Look, he's just like you.

He's 18.

He's just like you.

Isn't it amazing that someone like him could be in a position like that if you get on board with these ideas and accept our money, essentially?

That is what Charlie Kirk exists for in order to be the front of that kind of reach, that appeal towards the youth.

And I say that because Candace Orwin in her mid to you know early to mid-20s became a face of conservatism aiming towards the African-American communities of America by using the same funding models and the same, very same organizations that were behind Charlie Kirk.

Charlie Kirk was their guy for young people, and Candace Owens was their person to reach out to African-American communities.

All right.

So more on Charlie and Candace's quest to help black America.

But so

when Charlie and I met and I like I told him like my plan to sort of help black America and to wake them up because I understood how we had fallen victim to this brainwash.

What brainwash is that?

The leftist dogma, just this idea that because we're we're black, we have to vote Democrat.

And anybody that is not a Democrat is racist and against helping us.

That is like what so many black Americans believe.

I believed it.

I believed it.

You know what I mean?

So, and I'm a pretty smart girl, you know?

I've always been a very smart girl.

I've always, I've always been, you know, I've excelled in academics, right?

So, how did I fall victim to it?

The exact same system, right?

These three verticals.

The first being the family, the breakdown of the family.

The second one being culture, which then to me, like growing up, it was like Jay-Z.

Like, Jay-Z was a God to me.

Like, I like would throw on, like, I was, you know, I went through a lot of of stuff when I was a kid.

I didn't have a great family,

you know, but I would throw on a Jay-Z album, and like, whatever he said was like, it was like going to church, you know?

Um, and then, and I can't stand him now, but the third vertical.

You can't stand him now, no, because he knows exactly what he's doing, and he's a traitor.

But the third vertical being education, which was what casual aside.

He's a traitor.

Yeah.

Good for you, Nico.

We're going to come back to that.

Interesting in there.

I don't know if you caught it there, Cecil.

She talks about all the different kind of things that are going on in black culture.

She says, so how did I fall victim to this brainwashing?

Suddenly, the victim label, she's pretty comfortable with.

When she is being receiving phone calls of death threats, she's not a victim of a hate crime.

But the idea of voting Democrat, she's a victim of brainwashing.

So when she decides to become a victim, it is very, very convenient to her.

And when she doesn't,

she's talking about this three verticals theory.

I don't think

whether she's come up with this

three verticals theory or not, I think this is the strategic message that she has been hired by groups like turning point to front if anything it feels like she's actually showing her hand a little by talking about it so explicitly in the terms of three verticals it feels like something that was written on a powerpoint presentation on her induction day at turning point usa yeah you know welcome to the organization let's take you through what you'll be doing here we'll start with three vertical theory of how to to uh radicalize uh the african-american community into voting republican yeah she's just gonna say hey Jamie, can you pull up that slide share I sent you?

Yeah, exactly.

Just go through it.

Yeah, on the job application.

This feels 100% like a prepared speech.

And you can tell because in the previous clip, she started that with, let me tell you about the three verticals.

He interrupts her and says, who the hell is Charlie Kirk?

And then she goes right back to these three verticals, but she gets him to ask the question because she says something earlier.

She sort of casts this way earlier when she was talking about the way in which black people are brainwashed by the left.

She says it a couple of times earlier in the tape.

And then she starts talking about, you know, how they're going after these conservatives like Kanye and Ben Carson.

She talks about propaganda on the left.

And then, you know, she very much

implies that you have to fall in line with the left.

And she says it throughout the rest of this tape that they will discredit you if you don't.

And so she's been talking about this for a while.

and he finally bites on brainwash.

He bites on, what's the brainwash?

He asks.

And then she's like, glad you asked.

Here's my PowerPoint bullets.

One, let's talk about the three verticals.

She sets this line.

We are at this point, 46 minutes into the show.

She sets this line 35 minutes prior, and he finally bites on it, but she waits until he asks her about it.

And that's when she unloads.

She doesn't just come in and say all these things right off the top of her head she waits for her opportunity for him to ask and then she says it yeah that's that's really interesting yeah you're right okay so uh we're gonna continue on talking about jay-z

it's like like beyond jay-z and sleeper because he knows what's happening to black america and he's somebody that built his entire career off the backs of black america you know of being the guy who started in the hood in in in um you know queens and worked you know was a drug dealer and worked his way up and it became the idol for so many people in black america And then he stands on stage and endorses Hillary Clinton.

He stands on stage and tells Black America to put the same people in the White House that locked up more black men than any president in the history of the United States, Bill Clinton, right?

The person that stands on the crime bill of 94 is Bill Clinton.

But because Jay-Z is now focused on getting a piece of the pie, the globalist piece of the pie, he doesn't care about black America.

That's my opinion.

Do you think that's what it was, or do you think that maybe he thought that Donald Trump represented a lot of racist white people?

No.

He didn't want that in office.

Oh, God, no.

Not even kind of.

Not even.

No, I don't think he felt that.

Not for a single second

because Jay-Z is very smart.

Did you speak to him?

No, I didn't speak to him.

I just, I know.

It's a certain thing where like, I just, I know that Jay-Z and Beyonce betrayed the black community.

I think there's a few interesting things going on in here.

First of all, notice that Hillary is responsible for the decisions of Bill Clinton.

And look, maybe they are politically very, very similar.

I'm not an expert in American politics.

I think there is something to be said for

tarring a woman with the actions of her husband.

And that happens a lot with Hillary kind of going into selection.

The other thing we see, which is something we see throughout this whole conversation, when she's challenged on something in this pit here, Candace, she falls back on, she just knows.

How do you know what Jay-Z thinks?

How do you know what Trump thinks?

I just know.

She just knows what's in Jay-Z's heart.

What's in his heart?

It can't be the thought that the guy who was repeatedly found to be guilty of like refusing to rent his property to black people, he can't be a racist.

Jay-Z can't think Donald Trump is a racist, despite all the evidence.

I just know what's in his heart.

Absolutely not.

But if you look at the evidence for Donald Trump's views on race,

it's significant.

There is a Wikipedia page dedicated to racial views of Donald Trump.

There aren't many Wikipedia pages dedicated to a person specifically to their racial views, but Donald Trump has an entire Wikipedia page just about his views on race.

It is so long that that page is broken down into nine lengthy subsections

within those further subheadings around events and races.

And, you know, maybe that's because all the trans people that Graeme Linhan told us run Wikipedia are also trying to sabotage Trump's reputation.

Don't know.

But if they're doing that, they're just doing it by listing the court cases that found Trump to be racist.

And honestly, that page, it lists his prejudices against so many different races that the absence of white people on that page feels somehow racist against white people.

Like it lists everyone but us that I start to feel like left out that Donald Trump isn't being racist towards me.

Okay, so I do want to just roll back to the Bill Clinton line and say, I don't know that she's wrong about Bill Clinton.

I think Bill Clinton did do a lot of really negative things in this country.

One of them was put a lot of black people behind bars.

And that was continued on by many conservative presidents after him and conservative administration.

So I'm not going to say that Bill Clinton is somebody who I would defend here.

Bill Clinton's one of the

least favorite people around.

So I'm happy.

I am actually saying, like, I don't disagree with her assessment of Bill Clinton.

But what she is doing is suggesting that everyone should know all the things that she knows.

That's a really bad way to think, right?

It's like, I know these bad things about Bill Clinton.

So therefore, Jay-Z should know all these bad things about Bill Clinton.

And that's that I don't, I don't like the way that goes.

And to me, it, it, it really smacks of what you suggest which is when she's pressured she just says these things that are like well I just know and to be honest she does that so often in this conversation that at one point I was going to suggest that as the toolbox is the number of times she shuts down any kind of questioning with well I just know that to be the case but um we've got a better toolbox than that but that's certainly was an option yeah and and you know like look there's

it could possibly be hey you know this idea that she's saying if you're you're only compensated when you endorse somebody,

that sounds more like a confession to me than anything else.

That certainly sounds like somebody saying something that feels more like a confession when she's sort of making an experience ubiquitous, that no matter what, when you say, when you endorse somebody, you're getting something for it, not that you just like think this person is a good person and would lead well.

And also that you're, that she thinks Jersey is willing to sell out everything he stood for and all of his like community in order to get something.

And again, I think that is telling on her.

Yeah.

So look, they're going to keep talking about Jay-Z.

So here we go.

One more clip about that.

Like there, they are.

So you think they did it purposely for financial gain?

Yeah, I think, yeah.

I think that they were interested in having, they want to be the people that control the world.

And they felt that Hillary Clinton, like, you know, they were working with Obama very closely.

And very clearly now we know that the Obama administration worked very hard to get Hillary Clinton to office and they wanted to stay in that group.

And so they supported Hillary Clinton, who was selected behind closed doors, forget the American people, to be the next president of the United States.

Yeah, selected certainly by the DNC.

Yeah, 100%.

But beyond that, it was in bed with Obama.

You know, she was our Secretary of State, and she was doing deals behind closed doors.

And Jay-Z and Beyonce were a part of that clique.

So they were a part of the celebrated celebrities that were allowed to go to the White House, and they'd wear the ties, and everybody would be taking photo ops.

But it was a cool thing to be friends with Obama.

Right.

Like nobody wants to go to the White House and like celebrities, it's hard to get celebrities to go with Trump.

There's so much controversy attached to it.

Damage your career.

Yeah.

They get attacked.

Look at Roseanne.

They get attacked by people on the left and right.

So what she's proposing here is that Jay-Z and Beyonce are part of, she even says they want to rule the world, part of this conspiracy of elites to rule the world, that they sell everything out, that they held dear, sell out their communities in order to be part of that because they want to rule the world.

And Joe breezes right past that without sort of saying, sorry, what?

Jay-Z wants to rule the world, please.

Yeah, it feels like something you would maybe want another clarifying couple of bullets on instead of just suggesting this sort of thing.

They wanted to hang out with the cooler president isn't the burn you think it is, Candace.

That is definitely not the burn you expect it to be.

Yeah, absolutely.

And also, I'm not sure what she means when she says, you know, we very clearly now know that Obama's team worked hard to get Hillary into office.

Like, she was the candidate for his party.

So that's not that much of a surprise.

I don't think Obama's chief of staff would be like waiting until the debate to see who they want to support, to see who they're going to back at any point.

And Joe's saying, well, you know,

selected by the DNC for sure, but isn't

selecting a candidate for a party literally what the DNC is for?

Isn't that the DNC's job?

Isn't that what it exists for?

They do.

I think Joe is still stuck on that

email leak that came out from the DNC where where the

head of the DNC didn't want Bernie to win and said so.

So I think that there is like Joe is Joe is stuck on that.

And I think Joe feeds into that idea that it was a big conspiracy to pull the rug out underneath Bernie and that they.

And maybe I don't fully understand this, but Bernie isn't a Democrat.

He's not in the Democratic Party.

It's not a surprise to me that the Democratic National Convention would go for someone who's in the party rather than somebody who's always been like an outsider to the party.

Like it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that they do that.

Maybe I'm naive about American politics, but

typically parties and DNC, typically a convention will elect someone from the party to lead the party rather than finding an independent who they who's kind of cool.

Yeah, it does.

That whole thing makes it seem like there was a lot more to it than there was.

When the emails leaked, it really didn't feel like there was some sort of grand conspiracy.

It felt like they genuinely had a favorite and they might might have, you know, convinced certain donors to donate to Hillary Clinton and those types of things.

But at that point, you know, in the race when some of this stuff came out, the race was mostly over.

Like it wasn't like there was that a lot of people thought Bernie was going to come from behind.

And a lot of people blame the super delegates and that whole thing.

They'll say, oh, it was the super delegates that flipped it.

It's like, even if all the super delegates voted for Bernie, it still wouldn't have flipped it for him.

So again, it's like, there's just like, I think people misremember the thing that happened, which was most of America voted for Hillary Clinton that were Democrats in the primary.

And they just forget that that happened.

And it's understandable that the DNC might have had a preference.

I mean, obviously, maybe, maybe they got a sense that a country that was considering voting for Trump wouldn't have gone instead for an atheist socialist who's been very outspoken about people, those things in the past.

Yeah.

And I'm saying this too, as a guy who voted for Bernie Sanders in both of the primaries.

So in my sense, his politics is my politics.

I voted for him each time, but I never felt the outrage that I think a lot of other people felt at the DNC.

I think that there was a lot of finger pointing after Trump won.

And I think a lot of people just want to point fingers at somebody and say, if this would have gone differently, this wouldn't have happened, sort of thing.

So, I think that there's a lot of people with a lot of rage about all that stuff.

And it's really hard to navigate those waters because people are very upset, and rightfully so, that Trump not only got one term, but now has two and both times Bernie Sanders did not

okay all right

all right let's move on we're gonna talk about outrage culture in this next clip

I just wish that there was just a little more humanity like and I'm not saying that it's just like I really fundamentally strongly dislike something about the outrage culture and the willingness to like forego the fact that she's a human being and human like there's something about people that they believe that human beings are perfectible.

Perfectible.

Yeah.

And I think that this is something the left has sold.

The idea that it's perfectible, that you can defeat racism with the right person in office, that you can

defeat sexism, that you can defeat misogyny.

And this is not possible.

You can't defeat these things.

Bad things happen because human beings are constantly learning.

We're flawed.

Right, but don't you think that ultimately the direction that we're all moving in as human beings, if you looked at human beings from 3,000 years ago to human beings of today, we're moving in a general direction of a much more positive culture.

Racism

does to me.

To me it does too.

Racism is negative.

We both agree, right?

Right, 100%.

It can't be depleted.

But don't you think it can be shunned out of society slowly but surely if people realize there's repercussions for racism.

Repercussions, but then you're operating from a fear.

That doesn't mean that you're not racist because you're afraid to say it.

No, but people realize that it hurts people's feelings.

It causes all sorts of issues.

And

human beings, especially when they're in, and I've learned this all the time, when they're in a spot where they're fundamentally unhappy, it's very easy for them to

lash out.

It is.

And so if you find someone who's just miserable, right?

Who doesn't have, I don't know, the career, the girl, whatever it is, that person is much more likely to say something that's vitriolic.

And that's just, that's the human condition.

Like, you're not happy, so you lash out at someone else.

So, yeah, we just, we can't defeat racism and sexism guys so we should all just stop trying says candace owens the mouthpiece for a very well financed conservative organization also vote trump in the upcoming election man that's that's the message yeah yeah and what a genuinely cynical worldview she is espousing i mean people you know some people are going to be racist so we and so don't have any repercussions because people will just keep doing it anyway so why bother it really feels so defeatist And also, like you suggest, it's like there's like a Nirvana fallacy feels like in there.

If you can't stomp it out completely, why even try to do it?

Just don't bother.

Yeah.

And like if I'm going to be the one to be cynical for a moment, it also feels a little bit like what she's sort of saying between the lines is, if you can't beat them, jointly.

Yeah.

As somebody who has, we've seen her talk about being on the receiving end of racism.

She's, I assume she's probably been on the receiving end of sexism at points in her life.

Maybe she's been fortunate and hasn't, but she's certainly working for organizations that are pretty comfortable pushing both of those types of prejudices and saying they're not a big deal.

And it's interesting to hear Joel talking about, well, we've made such progress with racism.

And maybe if we stop people from, if we stop people from espousing those views, if we shun people from society, we show them that those views aren't welcome in society, they'll stop.

Sounds a lot like cancel culture, Joel.

And it can't be that because you hate that.

You talk about that quite a lot, that nobody should be canceled about things that they think.

But here you are saying, shun racists out of society.

So who side you on here, buddy?

Yeah, yeah.

So, there's a this next several clips are about a situation that happened in Philadelphia where two young black men came into a Starbucks.

They were waiting for a business meeting to happen.

They came in, they were asked, Do you want to buy anything?

And they sat down and they said, No, we're not interested in buying anything.

We're just here for a quick meeting.

They asked to use the washroom, they were refused, and then they were asked to leave right afterwards.

They said, No, you can't, you can't use the washroom, and you've got to go if you're not going to buy anything.

And they didn't leave.

They said, Well, I shouldn't be have to, I shouldn't have to leave.

I'm waiting for someone here.

You know, it's a business, et cetera.

And they said, no, you got to leave.

And then they called the police and they were arrested.

And then there was a big

dust up about this in Philadelphia.

And there was a dust up at Starbucks Corporate.

And so this whole thing, this whole conversation happens after this event in Philadelphia.

You'd think if those were white dudes hanging out in Starbucks, not buying anything, just sitting down, mind their own business, that they would have got fucked with with the same exact same thing.

Let's play into different pictures.

So, first off, I live in Philadelphia.

I'm not kidding.

I wonder if sometimes when I'm there, I'm like, I wonder if any white people live here.

Like, Philadelphia is like, it's 44% black, not just excluding Hispanic, 44% Black.

It's unbelievable.

Everyone who works in my build, everyone's black.

It's like the weirdest thing.

I'm like, this is a very black city, right?

It's a bizarre city to be racist, outright racist in.

Like, you're dealing with black people all day.

Yeah, see, you can't be racist if 44% of people you're going to see are black at any given date.

It's impossible to be racist in that situation.

Also, she's talking about a very affluent area.

This happened in a neighborhood where 95% of the residents are white-collar workers.

Average salary there is $155,000 a year.

It's a well-to-do neighborhood, so we know those neighborhoods call the police all the time.

It's a 73% white area, only a 4% black population in this area.

And so the numbers about abroad, even if, and I didn't even look up to check if she was right at the time, whether or not it's 44% or not, I didn't bother to look because your numbers about an entire Philadelphia don't mean anything in a neighborhood.

Okay, so now she's going to continue on with that Starbucks discussion.

So you remove that and then you think to me, and I've seen this happen tons of times, is it possible, right, that this guy was just on like a power trip?

Like power trips happen.

I've seen it happen at the most bizarre places.

And I'm like, all right, like the airport the other day, like this woman gave me absolute hell at TSA.

I mean, it was like, I can't even recapture it.

It was just absolute hell.

I could have walked away and said she was racist and she randomly selected my bag 22 times to go through and made me go through and miss my flight, right?

Or she was having a bad day and she was power tripping, you know?

And then people have these little positions.

It's like that, that movie where they go, doorman, you know, like, and they have these little positions, like the manager of Starbucks and you're having an off day.

And these two kids, I could have easily said, I'll buy a cookie, right?

Like common decency, by the way, even for me, if I go use a bathroom at Starbucks, I'll just freaking buy a cookie or a little like juice box or water, just something that makes me feel all right.

It's a little more civilized if I just buy something, even though I'm just here to use the bathroom.

Like, so on both ends, you gotta pee real bad and there's a line.

You go, and then I'll probably sprint to the bathroom and then buy something afterwards.

I do that.

It's just like a natural thing that, like, it's a little more

because of these guys, you could just be a homeless person.

I know, it's just a shower in the toilet.

It's because of outrage culture.

It's an outrage culture.

She's saying about, like, yo, what what if it was just a power trip by the manager look power trips do happen that is true some people do have like those kind of power trips so does racism why are we only like countenancing one of those possibilities it's like she's doing everything she can to try and find any way to to excuse it from being a racist incident and she's so she's going so far out of her way it's rare to see someone work this hard like she did the same thing going back to her own hate crime experience you know those kids they weren't really racist the ones who called me the n-word and said they'd kill me they were 14 they'd had a drink i knew their brother it can't be about race it must be something else so maybe it is just about race sometimes maybe that is one of the options you should leave on the table here candace um and okay yeah fine those two guys they could have bought a cookie and maybe it was thoughtless of them not to buy a cookie but you don't get arrested for thoughtlessness in coffee shops or at least you don't if you're white yeah you don't that's that's a thing so you know why didn't the manager ask them to leave if there was such an issue why call the cops before asking them to leave?

I read one of the stories about it that was saying that they were confused what was happening and then suddenly the police turned up and then they were asked to leave.

Maybe that's kind of weird down.

But they can't have been.

Why wouldn't the manager have gone up to them and made a point to say leave yourself?

They can't have been scared of them.

They were around black people all of the time.

They wouldn't have found it intimidating to say that to some black people because they're always around black people, apparently.

Yeah.

All right.

More on Starbucks.

It's insane.

Like my cousin who's half Mexican, half black, had to go through this training and she works for Starbucks.

So it's like, it's to me, it's just insane.

It's like, is it possible that this guy was power tripping, these kids were being like, you know, they could have just bought something and it could have been resolved, but you have two people that are being stubborn and taking it to as far as possible, you know, talk about like hall monitor, like, you know, these are the rules and it just got too far.

Well, that could be a perspective.

That is possible, but it's also possible that they were racially selected.

Yeah.

That someone was racist.

And looked at them and they said, these guys are black.

Yeah.

And they're probably up to no good.

We don't want them sitting around here not buying anything.

How long were they sitting there again for?

Could you remind me?

I don't know.

Weren't they just waiting for their friend to?

The whole thing didn't make sense to me.

Yeah, but how long were they sitting there for?

I want to say 45 minutes, but that's like until the cops got there.

Like they probably weren't.

I mean, how long does it take to get the cops to come and Philly?

So, I mean, I found a Guardian article about this.

Here's a quote from that Guardian article.

Nelson, one of the guys, initially brushed it off when the Starbucks manager told me he couldn't use the restroom because he wasn't a paying customer.

He thought nothing of it when he and Robinson, his business partner, were approached at their table and were asked if they needed help.

The The 23-year-old entrepreneurs declined, explaining they were just waiting for a business meeting.

A few minutes later, they hardly noticed when the police walked at the coffee shop until officers started walking in their direction.

So is this a 45 minutes thing?

This is kind of the quote from The Guardian.

Maybe George's got a different version of this here.

It doesn't sound like they were asked to leave by the manager.

It doesn't sound like they've been there hanging around and that they've been told get something and refusing and being stubborn, as Candace Owen puts it.

It sounds a lot like you've been sort of said, can I help you?

No, okay.

And then the police are the ones to come.

Now, I've waited for someone in a coffee shop before.

And when they got there, I said, do you want a coffee?

And I bought the coffee when they arrived.

I've not been arrested for doing that.

But you can hear how hard Candace Owens is to try and even, and it's interesting because Joe is saying, could it have been racist?

And Candace, I think, is used to talking to people about stories like this where they're immediately agreeing with her.

And she sort of pauses, like she's not quite sure where to go next.

And then she starts looking for what it could be.

Well, were they being stubborn and things like that?

She has to try and find and add these extra details in because the answer to, isn't it worth considering whether this is race or not, is obviously yes, if you're reasonable.

And there's this authoritarian thing that happens with people on the right.

Well, they'll say, like, you should have just listened to the police officer.

Not that you should be upset that the police officer is unjustly going after you.

You need to comply all the time.

And this is one of those authoritarian versus freedom moments where people will side on the side of officers because you just need to listen to officers, even if they're doing something that is unjust.

And I think like this is where wires get crossed very often between people on the right and people on the left.

Yeah, I mean, the question, am I being detained?

is a question that can only be asked by certain groups of people and not other groups of people.

You only have a right to ask that question if you're white, for example.

Okay, so now this is the final clip.

uh the left and fear politics

just it's the language i really don't like when people sit on a stage and go, racism, racism, racism.

It's just, it's to me, it's insulting to people's intelligence.

Talk to the black community about what's going on in the black community.

You don't need to scare them.

Like, it's the fear of politics pisses me off.

And that's what they do.

Every four years, it's fear politics.

Well, you got to vote for us because racism, racism, racism.

If it's not, that's manipulating us.

That's using fear to control what we do.

Okay.

We have a right to just be presented with the facts and being allowed to make a decision on our own.

That's my really perspective.

That's the big thing that's been so controversial.

Candice Owens thinks that the black community should be spoken to about what's going on in their communities.

They shouldn't be throwing Jay-Z and Beyonce concerts a la Hillary Clinton, right?

Is that really that controversial of a thought?

Well, it wouldn't be, but what if racism is what's going on in their communities?

What if that's what's causing those communities major issues?

Candace's positions and those of her employer are that the issue can't be racism.

That's invalidated as an option.

So talk about all of the things, but don't pin it to racism, even if racism is one of the contributing factors.

That isn't being honest to the black community and being and speaking to people about what's going on in their communities.

It's lying to them about what the real causes of some of the struggles that they might be experiencing are.

Fast forward to the most recent election

when Joe has been talking about the most recent election, talking about Kamala Harris and talking about Beyonce and saying, I didn't come here to hear you talk.

Sing me a song.

Sing me a song, Beyonce.

Sing me a single thing.

We heard him say this, right?

I'm not misremembering that.

We heard him say this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.

So Joe here is hearing Candace Owens saying, we don't want to be sung to.

We don't want somebody to come on and put a concert.

And then later on, Joe is like, sing me a song, dance for me, dance, sing and dance for me.

That's what you're here for.

You're not here to tell me your thinking thoughts.

I don't need to hear those.

No, that's an amazing point.

Yeah.

And I wonder, too, like, there's this whole fear politics thing that she brings up.

And she is clearly implying that the Democrats do this.

There were people at the last Republican national convention holding up signs that said mass deportation now.

And they were holding up those signs because they were told a lie that we are being overrun by immigrant, illegal immigrant gang members, and that they're eating the cats and the dogs in Springfield, Ohio, and that every large state that has a, every large blue state that has a large city is being overrun by crime.

These are literally the politics of fear that they've been stoking.

She just doesn't want to point that out on the other side.

She's only pointing it out when it's the other side saying, hey, man, there's, you know, sometimes people are racist.

And then the other side does something racist and stokes fear, and she doesn't pay attention to it.

Yeah, how many times have we heard Joe, one of his guests, talking about white genocide and how they're moving migrants into various parts of the country to weaken the voting rights of the white wrists?

But apparently, that isn't stoking fear about racism.

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Wow.

So that's the tool bag, and something just fell out of the toolbag.

Okay, so for the toolbox this week, this is what about ism?

That's what we're going to be covering.

So this is basically like dueling accusations.

Someone brings up some accusation of wrongdoing.

A person responds with What about?

And then brings up a counterexample that may or may not be similar to the point that they were making, just to try to point out some sort of hypocrisy to try to win points in this argument.

So

the first few clips are about Roseanne Barr.

So can we get a little backstory on these clips first about the tweets here?

Because we're not going to play, they never really, they sort of talk around it as if, because it's in the public consciousness at the time.

Yeah, absolutely.

So around about this time, Roseanne had tweeted of of an ex-Obama advisor, Valerie Jarrett, that she, quote,

well, what Roseanne specifically tweeted was, quote, Muslim Brotherhood plus Planet of the Apes had a baby equals Vijay, Valerie Jarrett.

And it was actually in response to a QAnon post, essentially, about how, like, all of Obama's secrets are coming out now, is essentially kind of what the post was saying, because Roseanne Barr is, as we know, kind of in that QAnon space.

That got a huge amount of backlash, understandably.

She apologized.

She said that the reason she was doing it was because she was on an ambient at the time and wasn't thinking clearly.

But what she said specifically as apologizing said, she said, guys, I did something unforgivable, so do not defend me.

It was two in the morning.

I was ambient tweeting.

It was Memorial Day 2.

I went too far.

I do not want it defended.

It was egregious, indefensible.

I made a mistake.

I wish I hadn't, but don't defend it, please.

Thank you.

So that is what Roseanne was saying, but the backlash was still kind of going on.

And this is in response to all of that backlash.

All right.

Well, pin and don't defend it.

So here we go.

Here's the first bit on

it.

And I want to mention, too, these early portions are setting it up.

And then we'll get to the to the to the what aboutism.

So not every clip is going to have a whataboutism in it, but there there are necessary setups that have to happen.

So this is a setup clip about that Roseanne tweet.

It was somebody stand up I was watching.

I actually don't remember who it was.

Like maybe it was Louis C.K.

I don't know.

But he was saying how he like instantly turns into a racist like if somebody cuts him off and it's like a chinese person like he like instantly the first thing he says is like something to do with him being chinese right right and there's a little bit of that in all of us like i was walking through new york city the other day and um like a huge bus like just happened to like stop in front of me and like literally 45 agents got off and suddenly i was just like i couldn't like walk and around i'm like oh i was like why do asians always travel in packs right like the most bizarre thing like i don't have an issue with them taking a bus and traveling and then afterwards i giggled i was like what a stupid thing a stupid thought to even had to have because i'm frustrated in a moment that i can't like get my bearings in new york city um so yes i think that people in a moment of of frustration of anger if you add alcohol if you add ambien right um and are coming from a place of upset they can just do something that's stupid without holding this like hold word for the rest of their life.

You're 14, you're racist, and forever you aren't race.

That's fine.

Yeah, you don't recover from that.

yeah

well especially today today nobody wants anybody to recover from anything that's right they want to know that you're you're dead yeah it's over your your career is done your life is over

yeah you've said the wrong thing you've done the wrong thing

i mean what's interesting with that clip as well is that candace owens is actually describing in part unconscious racism in that she says i had this initial thought immediately and then after i was like well what a stupid thing to think obviously i don't really think that's a ridiculous thing but it's where my brain went that is is what we're talking about when it comes to those kind of moments of racism.

People can have a racist thought, but you don't, but it's how you act on that thought, or how you kind of deal or process that thought and try to

like try to train yourself not to think like that way in future, like kind of think your way through that.

Those are what we're talking about in terms of you can have a racist thought without necessarily being a racist because you can recognize that that's ridiculous.

So she's open to that even here, which is interesting.

So now we're going to talk about.

This is the first start of this sort of

what about bit.

This is talking about the Roseanne Barr thing, but now talking about other people who may have tweeted things.

I mean, obviously, there's some reasons for some people to be punished.

Like Harvey Weinstein's a perfect example.

That guy should be in jail.

Of course.

For sure.

This is rapist.

He's a rapist.

Yeah.

This is rape.

At least alleged rapist.

For sure.

He's done a lot of horrible shit.

Correct.

But then there's people that, like, like, what did Samantha B say today?

She's called a bank a cunt.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

What happens there?

Think she gets in trouble?

I bet she doesn't.

She's not going to get in trouble.

I bet she doesn't because this is left-wing.

She's left-wing.

It's okay.

It's a safe space to say sorry.

I'm already.

I've seen some of the shit that Keith Oberman has said about.

She got a job at ESPN.

They don't care.

There are fucking so many tweets that he put out that are crazy calling Trump a Nazi and fuck you.

What I think is interesting is their point here is that you shouldn't lose your job over outrage culture.

You know, Roseanne shouldn't lose her job over outrage culture.

except it is bad that Samantha B can get away with calling someone a cunt.

Yeah.

So again, where are we here?

You know, calling someone a cunt is way less bad than being a racist.

But it was your point, Joe and Candice, that people's lives shouldn't be ruined over things that they've said.

You know, you, you both just got lost in partisanship in this conversation that you're now back around to Samantha B should have lost her job, except the left will let people get away with stuff like that if they apologize, which is wrong.

So like, is it right or not that she should lose her job?

job?

Where is your point on this?

Um, and they're saying, you know, it's a safe space to say sorry on the left.

And I'm not sure that's totally true.

Um, you know, some people do say sorry and kind of uh they get they can continue because it seems like their contrition is genuine.

Other people say sorry, even with like fairly genuine contrition.

I mean, I think Roseanne Barr's contrition seemed genuine.

She said it's egregious, it's unforgivable, and she wasn't able to continue.

So, yeah, okay, I can see that distinction.

But Louis C.

Kier, he was pretty left-wing before he got out of as a creep, and

he didn't get to just apologize and carry on.

He got rightly out as a creep and his left-wing credentials was over and his career stalled for a long time until he started to move towards the cancel culture is bad right-winger side of things.

Meanwhile, the right will turn a blind eye to almost anything as long as you're still on the right, essentially.

You know, you can take out full-page ads calling for the execution of black teenagers

and then double down once they've been found to be innocent.

And these two on this show will actively endorse you and and call you the next great president.

So the right are very forgiving of some things too.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Also, I just want to point out that the Trump, that Trump, the president of the United States at the time called for B to be fired.

There's a link.

I'll put it in the show notes.

Samantha B apologized that day.

They're going to find out that she apologized later on in the show.

So later on in this actual recording of the show, Jamie will bring it up that she actually apologized.

Advertisers left her show because because of this.

So Samantha B lost advertisers.

They eventually canceled the show a couple years afterwards, I think four years afterwards for lack of income.

But yeah, this, this was a rocky portion of Samantha B's

show.

And she could have feasibly lost the entire show if more advertisers had canceled.

If more advertisers had walked away, she might have lost the show completely.

You know, the thing is, like someone said a horrible thing.

So Samantha B said a horrible thing.

But then somebody said something that was racist.

And they're sort of saying, well, those two things are equal.

And one side didn't do the same thing.

You're not comparing the same thing.

This is a pretty obvious bit of what about ism because he starts talking about Harvey Weinstein.

He's like, well, you know, some people get canceled.

He's like, well, Harvey Weinstein, no, that's not one.

Samantha B, that is one.

And notice who's doing the whataboutism too.

It's Joe.

And we're going to find Joe doing a lot of what aboutism throughout this show that I think, I think, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure almost every clip we pulled that was whataboutism was Joe looking through the Rolodex of his mind to say, well, did anybody else do that on the other side?

Because I think he's trying to play that sort of centrist model where he attacks both sides and has free range to go after everybody.

So he's looking for that moment where he can say, oh, nope, somebody on the left did something similar.

I can point that out and point out the hypocrisy.

And that's how he gets to score points.

Yeah, I think that's true.

And, you know, the false equivalence there is pretty obvious.

A comedian insulting somebody that in a way that is, okay, I guess in America, the word cunt is much more tied to gender than it is.

Like, nobody would lose their job for calling somebody cunt in the UK unless you just you said it on TV at the time you weren't allowed to swear.

That's kind of as far as it would go.

So, okay, yeah, maybe.

Okay, but Marsh, what about

Think about like what people say about like Ben Carson and black conservatives.

Ben Carson was literally called a porch monkey,

and that's totally fine.

He's black.

It doesn't matter.

They've like created this system.

Who is it that did it, though?

It wasn't like a famous person.

No, it was a famous person.

Absolutely called a porch person.

Was it a famous monkey?

It was a black person.

It was a famous black person.

Yeah, that's like if I call a guy Guinea.

Yeah, but it's

a porch monkey is like not a, I don't care who it's coming from, right?

Like, yeah, but black people are allowed to say racist shit

to the black people with

the bread.

It's not okay.

None of it's okay.

Like the Uncle Tom's

stuff that

laws or rules culturally.

And I don't like those laws and rules.

I hear you.

Yeah.

I agree.

Well, it's definitely hypocritical.

Like, someone was saying, there's a tweet that I retweeted today.

That Smallville girl, that Smallville show is still on the air.

And that girl is apparently, she's admitted to sex trafficking and that some of it was her idea.

I read this.

Smallville still on the air.

And they're pulling Roseanne from Hulu.

Right.

Roseanne swears she did not know that lady was black.

She swears.

Okay, a lot lot to unpack here.

First of all, we're talking about what was said about Ben Carson.

And Joe says, well, that wasn't a famous person.

And Candace says, it was a famous person.

Okay, well, the famous person was a writer called Monique Judge.

And I know what you're thinking.

The Monique Judge?

Wow.

No, you're not thinking that because she's not famous.

She's not famous.

She's just a writer on a website.

But according to Monique, after Roseanne tweeted comparing black people to monkeys, right-wing accounts went online searching for times that they could find someone black saying something similar using the word monkey referring to a black person in order to cry hypocrisy and they found this tweet from Monique from seven months prior in which she referred to Ben Carson as a quote monkey of the porch variety and they called on her employers which is a website dedicated to black culture called the root to fire her so they were actually calling for her to be fired the the right doing the we don't do the cancel culture thing

found that tweet in order to call for her to be fired and they only found it after the fact because they went looking to try and find somewhat about toy here.

Monique wrote at the time, quote, to be clear, this current outcry for me to lose my job over a tweet isn't about any concern of my calling Carson a porch monkey.

None of these white people give a fuck about that.

What they do care about is defending Roseanne's right to be a racist.

What they care about is being excluded from using words they weaponized against us for years.

It upsets them, it angers them.

White people hate being left out of anything.

If any of these people cared about Carson, they'd have sniffed this out and been on my neck seven months ago.

Instead, they've jumped on this tweet and used it as a way to defend a white woman's right to spew hateful language towards a black woman with impunity.

It is epic concern trolling.

Nicely said.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so Owens, her lamentation against outrage culture includes, apparently, it being okay for this writer to be sacked over something she tweeted.

Because what is Owens calling for here?

How dare she be able to say this thing here?

Yeah, absolutely.

And bear in mind, Roseanne actually owned up and said, this is egregious.

It's unforgivable.

Please do not defend me.

Yep.

So people like Candace Owens and a lot of right-wing accounts online duly set about defending her against her wishes.

Honestly, the Roseanne situation, I think it's really tricky.

Like Roseanne's very clearly in a bad place, has been for a long time.

She's a QA non-believer.

She's gone down a very dark rabbit hole.

She's ended up now in a pretty sad place.

I've seen some of her comedy since this happened.

And a lot of it is her genuinely kind of showing how upset she was that this thing happened, like the repercussions of all of this.

And it feels kind of really, really difficult.

She very clearly overstepped here.

And part of that was her trying to be a comedian and pushing buttons.

But the joke didn't come from nowhere.

And it clearly was informed by some things that she thinks.

So like her contrition at least seemed legit, but the fact that she would go to monkey and Muslim Brotherhood in that moment shows where her thinking actually is.

And I think there's a question, there's a conversation to be had about whether canceling her show over it was the right price to pay, whether that's a fair response, whether there was a chance to educate rather than cut her off.

But I'm also aware that you and I aren't in the firing line of these kind of slurs, so it's not for us to tell people how to feel or what response is required.

But it is totally disingenuous for, I think, Candace or Joel here to say Roseanne didn't know Jarrett was black.

Okay, she's fairly light-skinned as a person, Jarrett, but Roseanne compared her to the Muslim Brotherhood and Planet of the Apes.

Those are some pretty unfortunate references to just randomly pluck out of the air if they weren't talking about her race in any way.

Otherwise, why would she pick those specific ones?

So that is, that is bullshit to try and cover this.

Yeah, absolutely.

I also want to touch on that Smallville thing because they're doing a whataboutism to say, well, this person that was involved in Smallville was part of the, you know, was doing sex trafficking.

So they're pulling Roseanne, but they're not pulling Smallville.

Why aren't they doing this?

This is a much worse thing.

You know, that person was part of the Nexium cult and they weren't a main character.

They were, quote, Allison mack best known for her role as young superman's close friend on smallville end quote so this is you know this is sort of what about ism when you're saying like look we're trying to get a show canceled they're trying to get a show canceled because they're saying racism bad but something else bad happened but that's a minor character how do you get rid of rosean and still have a show called roseanne like that's a real difficult ask this is not you know this this whole show wasn't centered around this person.

They were an accessory in this show.

You can get rid of someone who's an accessory in that show and continue on.

This is desperate whataboutism to find something that they can say, well, they didn't cancel this show, but they did this show.

Yeah, yeah.

Smallville isn't called Allison.

Yeah, exactly.

It's quite hard to write

Rosanna out of Rosanne.

Okay, so

The setup for this next set of clips here is they're talking about how Candace was attacked for a set of tweets.

So this piece here is the setup for that.

There isn't whataboutism in this particular clip, but it's a necessary piece to play.

I hate the idea that you can't say something like they were literally, I mean, everyone piled in, every celebrity on the sun piled in.

When I tweeted a couple of weeks ago, that I was having a conversation.

I don't know if you saw this.

I was like, I was having a conversation at lunch.

Cause I've just been observing Chelsea Handler.

I just think she's a weird person.

Like, I don't know what happened because I used to really like her, like, you know, 10 years ago.

That's when you were liberal.

Yeah.

But, like, when she was, I had her show.

Like, she was not politically correct.

I mean, I don't know if anybody remembers the show Chelsea Lately, but she was making fun of everybody.

And now, with the era of Trump, she's like, something's weird.

Well, she's getting older, and I think she wants to be an activist now.

And I think she's looking for more meaning and importance because she doesn't have a family or children.

And I tweet that.

Oh, you tweeted that?

I tweeted that.

I was going to not say that.

I was going to not say that.

So I tweet that.

I'm like, I'm talking to like a friend at lunch.

I was, and we were talking about like why some of these like older women have just gone bonkers.

And my friend made a comment.

She's like, if you don't like use your eggs, they scramble.

Like just saying like these women go crazy.

Oh, shit.

That my friend said.

But I didn't even tweet that.

I didn't tweet that.

Your friend should put that shit on a t-shirt.

No, it's really funny.

If you don't use your eggs, they scramble.

So I was like cracking up.

I know.

But there's something there, right?

There's something there.

It's not politically correct, but I observed the pattern of Kathy Griffin.

I observed the the pattern of Chelsea Handler and Sarah Silverman on the fence.

Not as bad, but in that neighborhood.

So I tweet out, do you think there's something associated like between like women who don't have children and they need something to nurture and foster and try to raise?

And in this sense, it's society.

Like they are just trying to parent the hell out of society.

She makes a comment in this.

I'm going to move through this relatively quickly because it's just a setup clip, but she makes a comment in this where she says it's, you know, she used to make fun of everybody.

She used to just have this show where she was poking fun.

Chelsea Hanley was poking fun at everybody.

I think it's a lot easier to make fun of everybody before Trump because there was sort of a certain level of decorum before then.

So was she making fun of Obama?

Sure, she was probably making fun of Obama quite a bit.

But then once Trump came in, he threw that decorum out.

And, you know, look, he does verbal attacks on minorities, on multiple different minorities.

He, you know, he makes fun of disabled people.

He calls black, black, protesting black crowds thugs and criminals.

So it's much harder to poke fun, sort of ha ha ha

at Trump when he's saying very damaging and awful things to large swaths of the country.

So I just like, I think that they think that it should just go back to, oh, man, can't we just all make fun of Trump and, you know, the same way we made fun of Obama?

No, because Trump doesn't act the same way Obama did.

Trump doesn't act like any American president did before him.

It's very different playing field.

And Trump can't even take a joke.

He canceled the freaking dinner that they do this at.

So like, what are you even talking about?

I also just want to say.

He canceled Colbert.

Yeah, exactly.

He got Colbert canceled because he made fun of him.

I want to say, too, like, this whole bit that both of them are jumping in on is diminishing.

any opinion from a large group of women because they never had any children.

And this is a way that you can pass off anything that they do that you don't agree with as crazy, as something that is unhinged, that is their biology is taking over.

They can't control themselves.

This is a way to diminish all their work and it's really disgusting.

Yeah, 100%.

Absolutely.

So now people tell her to delete the tweet and she defends it.

And yet they think they can say whatever they want.

So I tweet this and I mean, everyone was like, you delete, like, delete the tweet, like Ellen, the Ellen show's producers, like, I I mean, Jake Tapper, like, delete the tweet.

I was like, I'm not deleting it.

Jake Tapper told you to delete it.

Jake Tapp jumps.

Jake Tapper jumps.

He told you to delete the tweet?

No, he said, he said, like, this is, literally, so I tweet this, has nothing to do with Trump, anybody.

He's like, this is the girl who like supports Trump and works for Turning Point USA, which loves Trump.

I'm like, what is the weirdest logical jump ever?

Yeah.

And I just like, I'm like, Jake.

Jake, stop yourself.

Like, come on.

So, and everyone was just like, delete the tweet.

And I was just like, how about.

What was the actual wording of the tweet i think my exact words were at lunch with a friend uh talking about like how bizarre chelsea handler kathy griffin and sarah silverman so sarah silver had just tweeted something like pro ms13 it was like the whole israel like it was bizarre you know and how how crazy they've gotten and then i i just said like do you think there that something really happens to women if they don't have you know children and that was it's just a question

Pro-MS-13?

I don't imagine Sarah Silverman is pro-MS-13.

But look, it absolutely wasn't a question.

This is disingenuous in the extreme from kind of so.

And she knew she was trolling a left.

This wasn't her having a genuine curiosity moment and like looking for someone to answer the question with, hey, fun fact, this is actually what's happening there.

No, this is her deliberately trolling a left.

It is cowardice now to pretend it was an honest question then.

Just stand by your views.

If that's what you think, if that's what you actually think, have the honesty, have the courage to actually stand by those views.

And if people seem to want to tell you how shitty those views are well that is the consequence of having shitty views yeah it also it's not a leap here when joe jake tap is saying like oh that this is the woman who supports trump and they said this is leap she's coming after liberal women and she's using the fact that they don't have children in order to do that while also working for organizations that think that women's value lies in their ability to procreate and i guess their utility in spreading the organization's message to populations they wouldn't usually reach those are the twin twin values of women, I guess, in the eyes of those organizations.

Okay, so now Joe steps in.

What about

bizarre that that's such a hot spot?

It's like, you're going after the soft spot on them.

You leave them alone.

Yeah, yeah.

They're on our team.

Right.

And you can say anything about like Sarah Huckabee Sanders.

That's why I said I was like, imagine they can say anything to Ivanka.

This girl's not even going to lose her job.

Right.

And she can say anything to Ivanka.

You can say anything to Sarah Sanders, anything to anybody to me, right?

Anybody that supports Trump, it doesn't matter.

But then, like, these women who literally go after these people, like the amount of vitriol that Chelsea Handler has thrown to Ivanka, you know, to every single woman in the world, Chrissy Teigen's also like a net, like, she's just like angry, like, you know, just like hate, hate, hate.

And then, like, you say one thing about them, and like, they're like, how could you even question?

How could you even ask the question if it's because they don't have kids?

And I'm like, the fact that you guys are so outraged makes me sort of think that

point there.

Yeah, a little bit.

And I didn't feel like that.

If you didn't have any point at all, it wouldn't work.

Right.

And that way,

no one would be upset at you.

They're like, look at this person.

She doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about.

And I tweeted that.

I was like, there's got to be something here because you guys are all losing your minds, you know?

So Sarah Silverman responded, Kathy Griffin was like, they went nuts.

This was like a full-on like.

Well, Kathy Griffin is so happy someone's talking about her.

I know.

So.

People weren't coming after Kellyanne Conway or Sarah Hookabee Sanders for their family choices or what kid, how many kids they'd had or anything like that.

They were criticizing them for supporting cruel and extreme policies.

that's the difference okay i'm not gonna pretend that there weren't people who were also coming after them for their looks there absolutely were but the criticism we're talking about here they were being being criticized for the extreme policies that they were supporting um joe is trying to do the there's no and so is candace doing the there's no smoke without fire thing but that isn't the case that isn't true that's a nonsense because People weren't upset when with Roseanne, with what Roseanne tweeted, because the lady really did look like something from Planet of the Apes.

That is not why they were upset, because that's not true, not remotely true.

Insults can be shitty without being based in reality.

And Joe must, Joe should understand that, because square that position of it wouldn't work unless you were onto something.

It wouldn't upset them unless it was true.

Square that position with how upset he gets when people say he's taking horse deworma.

You know, well, Joe, if they didn't have a point, you wouldn't be so upset right now.

Is that right?

All of this, all of it is heavily in the women be hysterical school of conservative thinking.

That's where this is coming from, and that's why it is so upsetting.

Not just that it is clearly misogynistic, but also in part that it's misogyny coming from a young woman

who's embedded that misogyny in herself and is becoming the embodiment of it in order to gain followers, gain attention, and essentially placate the people paying her wages.

Yeah, yeah.

And to jump on that point that you suggest earlier, when you said like they're coming after Kellyanne Conway and Huckabee Sanders for their ideas, not their decision on how they want to raise a family or if they want to raise a family.

Nobody's saying to Chelsea Handler, hey, Chelsea, your ideas are trash.

They're saying, hey, Chelsea, you're mentally ill because of your biology.

That's a totally different thing to say than like Sarah Huckabee Sanders saying and promoting

a regime that is doing awful stuff.

That's a totally different thing, but this is whataboutism.

They're flipping through the Rolodex.

Who can I bring up that

is on the right, that has gotten some sort of heat, and then they're not even, this is like apples to oranges.

They're not comparing anything that is comparable.

Yeah.

And also it's worth pointing out that the reason why people like Candace Owens were coming for Kathy Griffin and Sarah Silveman was because they must have been onto something with their criticisms of the regime, which is why they're getting attacked for their biology and their

life choices, because you can't attack the things that they're saying because you know the things that they're saying are onto something.

Okay, so now we move on to guns and they're bad, but what about

the thing that's so bizarre to me is that we're sitting here and we're talking about the age, like as if guns were just created, like, you know, when in reality, right?

But something's wrong, but what's wrong?

It's not the guns.

I'm asking you, what do you think is wrong?

Mental health.

Right.

So I say, I agree with you, but I think it's the deterioration of culture altogether.

Like, they used to be taught the Bible in school.

Like, you know, people, people make fun of that now.

Like, now we've got this culture where you're making fun of kids.

Like, religion is like, we're so far away from religion.

Like, that's like weird to us.

Like, you know, like teaching religion is like, it's, you've got like a scarlet letter.

If you come in as like a holy Christian kid and like a normal public, public education thing, you've got the family structure where it's like, these kids are running the houses these days.

Like, I look on like Facebook and it's like supposed to be funny when like a four-year-old is acting like Cardi B.

I'm like, okay, yes, it's funny because she's four, but it's also like not funny because she's four, right?

Like, how do you feel about little Tay?

Who's Lil Tay?

You You don't know who Lil Tay is?

I love Cardi, but I don't know who Lil Tay is.

Who's Lil Tay?

So yeah, on school shootings here, the problem is mental illness and a lack of Bible and four-year-olds twerking on Facebook, but not all of the guns that are around.

Yeah.

The easy availability of guns with high capacities and higher firing rates.

That is what has changed.

Kind of saying, you know, what's changed around here?

That's what's changed.

It's not Cardi B's fault or whoever Lil Tay is.

It's the guns that are at fault here.

Okay, so they're continuing on with this.

So we don't talk about any of that.

We don't talk about the fact that we no longer focus on family.

We no longer focus on religion.

It doesn't mean to be that everyone needs to be religious, but there's structure in religion, right?

There's structure in me when I grew up and my grandpa used to make us read the Bible around the table.

There was some structure to that and lessons and prayers.

And then there's this mass, the Facebook, the snap, the snapping, the Instagram, the Twitter.

It's like we've changed the world and expected children to stay the same of it, and nobody talks about it.

So instead they say it's the guns' fault.

We need to need stricter gun legislation, but the entire world has shifted.

We're not talking about those changes, the dynamic of the world that has shifted.

So I just hold a different position.

I think it starts with family.

It starts with structure.

I think we need religion back.

I think that that needs to stop being such a dirty world.

It needs to stop being mocked roundly.

by the media.

Like it shouldn't be funny when Joy Behar

says something about Jesus and the whole audience giggles.

That's weird.

She says something about Mike Pence being mentally ill.

Yeah, because he talks to Jesus.

That's think about how weird that is, right?

Like, how weird that the stuff that we used to would be normal, like, you know, praying, talking to Jesus, like when I grew up, that was like my grandparents' generation, that was everyone was religious.

And now we're so far away from that, right?

That that seems like it's okay to mock and we roundly mock it all the time.

So I don't think we should take what was normal when Candace Owens' grandparents were growing up in America as a guide on how society today should be run.

And I would argue her grandparents would probably agree with me on that.

And if not her grandparents, certainly her great-grand grandparents.

But for me, what she's doing here in order to shift away, shift the attention away from the things that are actually the things that are the substance of the actual conversation, she's just reciting that induction PowerPoint slide again, though.

We should focus on the family.

In God we trust, put the Bible back into school.

Like Candace Owens here is just the new face of these same old conservative talking points.

And that's what she was hired to be, to be a new and different face for those talking points to reach a different audience with the same message.

And this reminds me of her earlier when she brought up those pillars.

a couple times she tried to do that.

This reminds me of the same thing.

She shifts the conversation to the Bible.

They were talking about guns.

And then she immediately says, well, it's about the deterioration of culture.

That's a talking point on my PowerPoint.

So let me bring up the Bible part of that.

And then she brings up the slide share where she's, you know, she's got a bouncing Bible next to Clippy moving across the screen, telling people exactly what,

telling people, telling the right exactly what they want to hear, which is,

you're ruining our culture, you're changing this, and we don't like to see that happen.

She's, and this is totally, look at all these other things that are way worse than guns.

This is all what aboutism.

I'm the last person that thinks I'm smart.

Trust me.

So, uh, Marsh, something good.

So there is something good.

We've had to leave it off this show because it's so good that we have to do an entire segment on it on a different show in the future.

But they get into climate change and it is a side of Joe Rogan you and I have never seen before.

And it's amazing.

It was genuinely jaw-dropping at times.

So yeah, that was good.

Can't talk about it too much now.

So, I'm throwing that one forward to a future show.

But that was amazing.

Yeah, call forward.

It is a point where you and I are going to be talking about it at length because it deserves it.

And so, we'll, we'll spend that time on it when we get to it.

Other than that, not much to like, I don't think.

I don't think there's much to like here.

She seemed ready to sell her image to Joe's audience, um, very much like Stefan Molyneux.

Come in with points that are a little less radical than you normally would.

So you could sell it to sort of a centrist audience.

It does not sound,

and also too, I just want to point out she is really polished.

And we'll find out in the Gloves Aust section, even Joe thinks she's trying to sell something at a certain point.

There's a point, a piece of tape we're going to play about that.

I don't think she believes this stuff.

And the reason why is when you think about something, you get to sort of build that structure.

You build that house.

You learn where all the pieces pieces are of your thought process as you build the premises to understand why you believe a thing is true.

And multiple times when pressed in this conversation, she falls back to, I don't know, I just know.

I just know.

I just know.

And that to me says, I don't think you've thought about these, but I do think you memorize these.

Yeah, absolutely.

Her views are based on three pillars, but she didn't build those pillars herself.

No, no.

Zero stars.

That's what I'm going to say.

All right.

That's it for this show this week.

Remember that you can access more than a half hour of bonus content each week for as little as a dollar an episode by subscribing at patreon.com/slash no Rogan.

Meanwhile, you can hear more from me at Cognitive Dissonance and Citation Needed, and more from Marsh at Skeptics with a K and the Skeptic podcast.

And we are going to be back next week for a little more of the No Rogan experience.

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If you want to get in touch with us, become a patron, or check out the show notes, go to knowrogan.com, k-n-o-w-r-o-g-a-n.com.

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