#0036 - Gary Brecka

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On this episode, we cover the Joe Rogan Experience 2304 with guest Gary Brecker.

The No Rogan Experience starts now.

Welcome back to the show.

It's a podcast where two podcasters with with 108 hours of Rogan experience get to know Joe Rogan.

It's a show for anyone who's curious about Joe Rogan, his guests and their claims, and just anyone who wants to understand Joe's ever-growing media influence.

I'm Michael Marshall, and I'm joined as ever by Cecil Cicerallo.

Today, we're going to be covering Joe's April 2025 interview with Gary Breca.

So, Cecil, how did Joe introduce Gary in the show notes?

The show notes say Gary Brecca is a human biologist, biohacker, longevity expert, and the host of the Ultimate Human podcast.

Okay, okay.

And is there anything else we should know about Gary Brecca?

He has a BS in biology and a BS from a college of chiropractic and human biology.

Okay.

He is an Instagram influencer and YouTuber.

His LinkedIn page, his title is The Ultimate Human.

And so that is probably true.

He also suggests that hydrogen water promotes longevity.

And he does a 30-30-30 diet that he's a big promoter of, where you eat 30 grams of protein up to 30 minutes after waking in the morning and do 30 minutes of exercise.

A little more complicated than that, but not much.

Gary Breca's website has a large supplement section, and some of the products include methylation gene tests, so you can reveal how your body processes key nutrients based on your DNA.

Hydrogen bath tablets you can soak in molecular rejuvenation.

Rho liposomal NAD plus,

which sounds like something you would hit in a car to go really fast.

And then there's also a variety of supplements

that and a lot of nasal sprays he has.

One of them is an NAD one.

And then he sells cold plunges and weighted vests.

Some of the cold plunges can be as expensive as $8,000 to

thousand dollars.

Wow.

Okay.

So what did Gary and Joe talk about here?

Well, they talk about Gary runs through all the stuff he sells, of course, and how great it is.

He brings up a bunch of anecdotes, one after another, and all of his recommendations

happen to just work out perfectly.

Then they talk about some cherry-pick studies that prove what they say is right.

And then all the other studies that come up are wrong.

They also talk about what kind of home gyms each of them have and how amazing it is to own dozens of acres of wilderness, how exhausting it is to run a marathon on every continent every day for one week.

And finally, they huff some smelling salts because if you don't do that, you're weak.

That is absolutely true.

So, our main event is going to be Gary's advice around supplementation and health.

But before we get to that, we want to say a huge thanks to our Area 51 all-access past patrons.

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But now it's time for our main event.

So a huge thank you to this week's veteran voice of the podcast.

That was Mr.

Richard Thunder Hopkins of the UK announcing our main event.

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So for the main event this week, we're just going to basically be going over most of the products that he promotes throughout this entire episode.

A lot of these products he sells on his website.

So we're going to talk about some of the things that he suggests are useful to longevity and health and muscle rebuilding and all kinds of different types of biohacking that he does.

And we'll be covering all of that.

And then in the toolbox section, we'll be talking about some of the anecdotes that he does.

But we're going to get started early in the show where he talks about hydrogen gas supplements.

And Joe is very into these.

Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, you want to know those hydrogens?

Yeah, yeah.

You want hydrogen?

Come on.

Chick it up.

I love these.

I'm addicted.

I love these too.

Yeah.

Explain to people what these are.

So hydrogen gas, I mean, this is probably my favorite biohack in the world because it'll cost you about a dollar a day.

These are called H2Tab.

You can get them at drinkh2tab.com.

You can actually read the science on it.

I think there's two people in the world now.

I mean, those that have read the science and take hydrogen gas, drink hydrogen water, and those that don't,

or just haven't read the science.

Because hydrogen gas, first of all,

it's the lightest element in the universe.

It's also the most prevalent element in the universe.

10% of your body weight is hydrogen.

I think, in fact, if you took hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen, that's 96% of your mass, those four elements.

So hydrogen is about 10% of your body weight.

And hydrogen is not just an antioxidant, it's a selective antioxidant.

So if you look at oxidative stressors like nitric oxide or superoxide or hydrogen peroxide, so all of

these oxidative stressors, they can be good in certain amounts.

Like you need a certain amount of nitric oxide in your body, but too much nitric oxide is bad.

Too much hydrogen peroxide is bad.

Too much superoxide is bad.

So if you were to take an antioxidant like vitamin C

and take very, very high doses of antioxidants, this can be very bad for you because you're suppressing too much oxidation in the body.

You're actually suppressing these oxidative stressors too much.

Hydrogen, on the other hand, uses the body's homeostatic process to suppress inflammation.

So, in other words,

it works through something called the NRF2 pathway.

It affects a protein called NRF2, which moves into the DNA, binds to the DNA, and then the DNA spits out the instructions for catalase, superoxide dismutase, and glutathione.

So, in other words, you're actually using the body's regulatory system to actually control inflammation instead of externally trying to control inflammation.

inflammation.

Okay, I want to rewind back to the beginning of that clip and just Joe sounds like he's tweaking for these tablets.

He sounds like he's going to crush one up and snort it.

That's how much he sounds like he likes these tablets.

He does.

And it is genuinely such a weird moment because we didn't cover what comes before this

part of the conversation.

And we'll mention a little bit in maybe the gloves off, but it's only a little bit about like Trump and the various things that RFK Jr.

are doing and what the wins are.

and then they start talking about seed oils for a bit and that's the conversation they're in and then out of nowhere joe just redirects the entire conversation to these tablets that gary sells it's literally a complete jarring aside that they're having conversation.

Joe says, what about the hydrogen things?

It's just out of nowhere, completely out of nowhere.

Which I think is an interesting thing, given that, as you said, that Gary sells these.

And Joe's talking about how he loves them so much.

He's addicted to them.

I looked online.

They say they're unflavored.

So I don't really know why you love them and are addicted to them.

They're just like a tablet with hydrogen in.

I don't understand what he's getting out of that so much.

Other than it's not a snack.

Like we've seen him take stuff before and be like, oh, this tastes great.

This is amazing.

This is a supplement that Gary sells.

What I find remarkable about this whole bit of the conversation is, look at how much of a sales pitch this is.

This is half an hour into the show.

It's a sales pitch.

There are two types of people in the world.

He fucks it up first, in fact.

He says there's two types of people in the world, those who take these products and those that don't.

Yeah, that's true of anything.

That's true of anything that you could be doing.

There's two people.

There are two types of people in the world, those who have listened to an episode of the show and those who haven't.

That's not saying anything profound.

You're giving him more credit than he deserves because he says there's only two people in the world.

He doesn't say two people.

He does say there's only two people.

But what he then reclarifies what is it meant to be his slick sales pitch is there's only two types of people.

There's the people who take this stuff and the the people who haven't read the science you know because you can't dispute the science on this this is straight from essentially an infomercial type speaking quid you know he lists that you've got your in your body you've got hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen and carbon therefore taking these hydrogen pills is good but like those four elements make up most of the stuff generally like that's just the generally most abundant elements around so it's not really a surprise that you've got a lot of that in you given that you're from here from this planet and it got me thinking we covered the brian dunning episode on a patron ornie born a second yeah yeah and in it brian talks about how joe recently had somebody on who was talking about a supplement and brian says this person was on selling uh talking about a supplement that they sell and joe took him to task and said that guy does not sell this supplement he's just talking about supplements that he likes and joe's really affronted at the idea that one of his guests is talking about a thing that he sells and he's having a go at brian for that fast forward a few years gary brecker sells this stuff stuff and is even giving you the URL to get them from.

Yeah.

And Joe's totally fine with that.

Yeah, so right in the middle of where we've turned.

Yeah, right in the middle of him talking.

He says, by the way, you can buy him at my website.

You can get him there.

There's also an interesting part here where Brecca says, if you were to take an antioxidant like vitamin C and take very, very high doses of antioxidant, that could be very bad for you because you're suppressing too much oxidation in the body.

I don't know if any of that's true.

I'm just repeating what he says.

And this to me reminds me of Joe talking about vitamin C and talking about how great vitamin C is.

I thought he's said that in the past, hasn't he?

Yeah, no, he absolutely does recommend vitamin C.

For example, here he is when he was talking to Suzanne Humphreys about it.

You know, if you're not consuming like some sort of liposomal vitamin C supplement, if you're not taking something on top of that, you're probably not at an optimal level to survive anything.

That's not the only time he also talked to Dr.

Mark Gordon about how he actively recommends vitamin C to all of his friends.

I had a skeptical friend of mine who dismisses all kinds of quackery.

He was real sick with the flu.

He couldn't get over it for weeks.

And I told him, listen, man, I'm going to hook you up, do this, get IV zinc and vitamin C and high-dose vitamin C and B12.

And he was better immediately.

He said 24 hours later, he goes, couldn't kick this fucking flu.

He said, I had it for two weeks.

So, yeah, he's a big fan of taking vitamin c but apparently not when he's talking to gary brecker and i think that's actually one of the important things here because you said you know we haven't checked whether vitamin c is useful in that kind of way and this isn't going to be an episode where we do a huge amount of fact checking the um actual direct health claims partly because you and i aren't experts and partly because we don't think you should get your health advice from podcasts what we can point out though is how often joe will be completely on board with something here that he's not on board with elsewhere, how he'll completely elide over arguments here that that he would pick up on elsewhere, and how often Gary Brecker brings out a massive range of things that you need to be taking in order to be healthy.

So we can point out that that stuff.

But we're not going to go through the actual bone by bone line by line on the medical claims.

What I will say, though, there was a study

on the use of hydrogen water and its usefulness.

There was a study from 2024 about it.

So it is still relatively new and still being studied.

But the study that I found, which I think is often cited in places it's a systematic review that includes a review of 30 different studies but most those studies are case studies and observational studies and they don't actually this automatic overall systematic review doesn't uh assess those studies for bias or reliability which isn't great and then even then when there are studies that are available on hydrogen hydrogen rich water uh what you find is there are double blind studies that have got 13 people in each arm, which is nothing.

So there isn't strong evidence here.

And yet Gary Brecker is selling this stuff.

Like if there was a really strong effect of hydrogen-rich water and hydrogen capsules, we ought to be seeing that in the scientific literature before we start seeing it on the shelves of supplement websites.

This is something that happens often with a lot of these guys, though, is that they catch on to this emerging stuff very early on because there isn't a lot of information out there and they can manufacture a lot of this stuff a lot of times.

And one thing people should know is that supplements are not, especially in the United states are not as heavily regulated as other types of things you put in your body so they can create a whole bunch and a whole slew of these things that are based on emerging science that may or may not be up to snuff supplemental wise and sell them to you based on this stuff that you really there isn't a lot of information out there about yet.

And that is a great way for them to create something to sell to a consumer.

And then, you know, there's no real evidence whether it works or not yet.

Yeah, absolutely.

And this is something we see time and again.

And we see it, we see it in technologies that may well turn out to be useful that we've sort of started to discover.

So, for example, when we started to make discoveries around stem cells, there was a real rush of people selling stem cell technology for absolutely everything, way before there was any evidence it could be useful in those areas or that the technology was ready in those areas, because it was a real science thing that people who wanted to make money could sell based on the real science thing.

They may even have been giving you stem cells.

There's no evidence that they had a good reason to give stem cells for that treatment or in that kind of way.

We also see it when there are real scientific discoveries or even not even scientific, when there are real discoveries that people don't understand whether they will have a health aspect or not.

So if you go back long enough, the discovery of magnetism and electromagnetism led to a hundred hooksters and charlatans selling magnetism as the cure for all sorts of ailments and snakehole sales, electricity, too.

Yeah, absolutely.

Soda, even when soda was first, soda water and things like that were first invented.

There were people who were selling it as an elixir of life.

Um, because here's this newfangled thing, we don't know what it can and can't do yet.

So, let's rush in and sell it before anything gets really established.

And so, that's not always the case.

Sometimes people will cotton onto something that genuinely will become a very big thing in the future, and that's the thing they'll be selling now.

And maybe they'll stumble onto it through luck.

But we should be wary and see some red flags when when people are pushing something way before the evidence is there.

So,

we're going to continue on talking about these hydrogen gas supplements in this next clip.

And then, and the second thing it does is it targets the only oxidative-free radical that I think all of the science points to as which is hydroxyl radical

having no use in the body.

So, it selectively targets that and regulates the rest of the inflammatory process by using the body's homeostasis.

So,

I guess a very long-winded way of saying that hydrogen gas can go anywhere in the body.

It reduces inflammation, improves circulation, improves memory.

There's a really interesting study published on the Journal of Experimental Gerontology, and it was published in November of 2021.

And most

of these clinical research studies, they'll look at younger populations, like healthier, younger populations.

But this actually looked at a six-month study on hydrogen water versus non-hydrogen water in 70-year-old and older folks.

And they used something called TET2 to measure methylation.

They measured cognitive function, sleep scores, sit-stand ratios, how well they're able to sit and stand, telomere lengths in their chromosomes.

And the really fascinating thing about this study is it was done during COVID.

So these seniors were basically imprisoned.

So they were not mobile.

And the only difference between the groups that they controlled for was the presence of hydrogen water.

At the end of the six-month period during the lockdown, the

control group had lost 11% in their telomeres.

The non-control group had gained 4%.

They had better short-term recall, better cognitive scores,

better circulation, improvement in cardiac markers, improvement in inflammatory markers like C-reactive protein.

I think it's the greatest biohack on earth.

That and like some sea salt and some amino acids, like a perfect amino, I mean, just covering your bases.

I think those are, those are your foundational basics for optimal health.

And it's like delicious.

Comes with good flavors and it's easy to drink.

It's like a pain-free thing that you can do.

So here we have Gary talking about a study.

So I went away and I read that study.

It was indeed in the Journal of Experimental Gerontology.

It was published in 2021 by Zanini et al.

called The Effect of Six-Month Hydrogen Rich water intake on molecular and phenotypical biomarkers of aging in older adults age 70 years and over a randomized controlled pilot trial.

So it is a pilot trial, which means it's not a full study.

This isn't a, we've got good evidence to

that the hypothesis might prove true and therefore we've recruited a large number of people to do a proper study.

This had 40 participants, six of whom dropped out.

Four dropped out of the experimental arm.

No, sorry, four dropped out of the trial of the control arm and two from the experimental arm.

It took place over six months, which is a decent amount of time, but they checked that you were taking the hydrogen tablets just by counting how many tablets you had left, which isn't a great control for how many people are actually taking the tablets because people might have like dropped tablets.

They might have been embarrassed about not having taken them and decided to throw some away before they got checked on.

There's lots of reasons.

This isn't controlled.

This is people taking tablets at home.

You know, this isn't done in clinical settings or anything like that.

And understandably, over six months, you couldn't do it in clinical settings.

He says the only thing they control, that the only thing they didn't like that they controlled out, the only difference they controlled for was the taking of these tablets.

Well, that's true because

what he means is the study said we asked people not to take other supplements, to exercise as the same as you always were, and to eat the same as you always had done.

And then they checked to make sure that was true by asking people on the phone once a month, have you done anything different?

And then just taking their word for it, which is not a good control.

Because if people had done something different, maybe they don't want to admit it in the study.

Maybe they can't remember that they've done something different.

Maybe they're thinking, well, I've been taking those tablets, so maybe I will go for that extra little walk today because I feel a bit better because of the tablets I've been taking.

So there are good reasons why this is not a good control at all.

Also, this whole study was funded by HRW Natural Health Products Inc., where the HRW stands for hydrogen rich water.

It's a hydrogen-rich water company who paid for this study.

So this is a company selling a product that paid for a very small scale pilot trial, which found that the product worked.

Now, maybe the product does work, but how would Joe respond to this study if the sponsor was a pharma company?

Great point.

Rather than a hydrogen-rich water company?

He'd be saying, well, obviously they found positive results.

They were paid to.

The pharma company behind it wanted to get those results.

He doesn't care about that stuff when it's something on his side.

Yeah.

What would be interesting too, Marsh, is if a pharma company found that it didn't work, right?

So like flip it around and say they a pharma a pharmaceutical company checked into hydrogen water and they produced a study that showed it didn't work.

How would Joe throw that study out?

Ask yourself that question.

I think he probably would.

Yeah, I think so too.

And I think Gary Brecker would too, and what we'll see with Gary's approach to studies in this in this interview.

The study did say that it found telomere length differences between the two groups and that telomere length is associated with signs of aging.

but that doesn't necessarily mean that taking hydrogen water does have all these beneficial beneficial effects because it's not clear whether shortening telomeres causes aging or whether aging causes shortened telomeres or whether aging and shortened telomeres are both caused by another factor We also don't know what was happening with these people's population groups telomeres prior to the study.

We've got their baseline where they were at the start.

But if somebody was already aging to a point where their telomeres were shortening naturally, then if that if the previous six months had seen significant shortened telomeres, what we're seeing is a continuation of that.

So we don't know kind of what was going on in their general baseline and trend.

And then, you know, Gary lists out the various secondary findings as the benefits.

The main finding in this study is the telomere thing.

The rest of it is all secondary measures that they've done after the fact, essentially,

secondary analyses for secondary endpoints.

One of my favorite lines in the analysis is from that segment about

secondary endpoints.

It says, two-way ANOVA, ANOVA is a type of statistical analysis.

Two-way ANOVA revealed no significant treatment versus time interaction for most sleep quality outcomes.

Nevertheless,

the participants who received hydrogen-rich water demonstrated a trend towards favorable sleep quality outcomes.

Trend towards.

So they found...

They found a result that was not significant, but you know, it trended towards significance.

So maybe we should count that anyway.

That's what you're you're saying here.

Oh, interesting.

What do you know?

I'm going to go back to this a lot throughout this entire episode and talk about the money behind this.

Yeah.

Because I think it's important to point out that the things he's talking about cost people money.

Now, Joe and him at the end of this say, it's a pain-free thing you can do.

Well, it's a pain-free thing if you happen to be a wealthy person.

You can easily spend a dollar on your drinking water every time you drink it.

That's an easy thing for you to do.

But if you're working two jobs and raising children, might not be as easy or as pain-free as they put off.

I just want to point out a couple of things here.

One of them is that they sell these tablets.

Now, these tablets come in $30 packs.

There's 30 tablets, $30.

And so that's about a dollar.

It's about a buck every time you drink water.

And

it seems like he's saying maybe once a day.

So it could be

as cheap as $30 for 30 days.

Now, that's admittedly, $30 for 30 days, $360 a year is an expensive thing to put into

your regimen if it's not, if it has no benefits to you whatsoever.

You know, you could have a streaming service for that kind of money, even a really good streaming service for that kind of money, and have a lot of hours of entertainment over a month and not have, you know, like, like not feel like you're throwing your money away.

And this feels,

it better be doing something for you if you're spending, you know, $360 a year on it.

And one of the things he says, too, is that instead of getting one of these tablets, you can buy one of these bottles.

Now, these bottles that he has, he talks about these bottles and he says, well, these bottles, one of the problems with the bottles is you pay $300 for these bottles and then these bottles wear out.

So they produce a lot of hydrogen in the beginning.

As you use them, they start to lose that hydrogen production as time goes on.

These are bottles in his store.

He's selling for $300.

And he's telling you they suck.

They don't last for a very long time.

So we're talking about a guy and Joe, who I think to them, money isn't an object.

And it doesn't matter if they're spending, you know, a couple hundred dollars on a bottle.

That doesn't even register as an expenditure on their sheet.

It would for a lot of people.

And I think as we listen to this, you're going to hear the amount of money that they're talking about.

This is an intense amount of money that people are spending on these supplements, which may or may not be doing anything for them.

Yeah, that's a great point.

As you say, if it was a dollar a day, people might think, okay, a dollar a day, it's not nothing, but it's not a huge amount.

But that's a dollar a day on one of those things.

Let's see how many more of those things that you should be taking on a regular basis and see whether that starts to happen.

That's another great point.

All right.

So now they're going to talk about, you know, not just drinking hydrogen, but maybe bathing in it as well.

You know, you can bathe in it too.

You can actually bathe in hydrogen gas.

How many tabs are you put in the water?

You can actually put what's called a hydrogen bomb, which just looks like a big bath bomb.

It just creates hydrogen gas.

It's elemental magnesium.

What does it do for you when you bathe in it?

It goes right transdermal, goes right through the skin.

So remember, hydrogen is the smallest, lightest element that we know of, right?

So it will go right transdermal.

And these hydrogen gas will form in between water molecules.

So a water molecule is H2O, but hydrogen gas can actually exist outside of the water molecule.

And when you put excess hydrogen gas into the water, it will go right transdermal.

And, you know, I have two of these baths at my house.

I never talk about it like on social media, so I guess I'm about to talk about it now.

But I have literally put people into these tubs, I'm kidding you not, crippled with arthritis, and they will skip out of my unit like they won the lottery.

It's incredible.

I mean,

so transdermal reduction of inflammation in joints from these hydrogen bombs.

How long does it last?

Or from a hydrogen bath.

You can get these machines.

I mean, one for your house is about $7,500, $8,000.

They make some that make nanoparticles or nano-bubbles, which are about 1,500th the diameter of a human pore.

So if you run these things on your face, it'll actually push all the sebum out of your skin.

It'll get rid of dandruff, psoriasis, eczema.

If you have any kind of inflammatory condition, like knees, hips, shoulder, rotator cuff, arthritis, low back,

Bathing in hydrogen gas can be one of the most therapeutic things that you do.

Really?

Can you add it to a cold plunge?

Okay, so I just want to mention there's a call forward in there when he says that he had people over go into his tub and then they skip out like they're 30 years younger or whatever.

That's a call forward.

We're going to talk about that.

And he will mention multiple people that he's worked with and the anecdotes that come up from that.

But that's sort of a call forward to the toolbox later on.

But listen to how casually they drop how expensive these machines are.

It's $75,000 to $8,000.

You can get a machine for the cost of a good used car.

Are you kidding me?

Yeah, it's amazing.

Also, he's saying

when you bathe in water that's got too much hydrogen gas in it, the gas will enter your body.

I think the gas is just going to escape.

Like if you put the gas in water, gas rises up through the water and out into the air.

And then you're just back in water again, basically.

Like maybe some of that gas will like snag you on the way past, but like water isn't going to stay hydrogen, it isn't going to stay enriched for very long with hydrogen gas because that's not how gas and water come together, essentially.

But he's talking about here a panacea.

You know, there's so many different conditions that seem to share absolutely no common cause or mechanism that are all cured by the same thing or treated by the same thing.

And that should be a red flag, because why should

eczema and arthritis and lower back pain all have the same treatment when they don't have the same cause they don't have the same mechanism of of injury they're they're different in lots of ways so why would the same thing treat them all that's kind of a red flag something we should be looking into i did look at the evidence a little bit and even when there are some papers and i'm not expert enough to evaluate all of the papers on their their individual strengths but the things that i could find that were papers suggesting that hydrogen was good for arthritis they were talking about hydrogen hydrogen-rich saline injections being injected directly into the skin or the bloodstream, essentially, or the muscle.

So getting, so you know that the hydrogen is getting into your body, not about bathing in hydrogen water.

There were some that were transdermal patches.

So you put the patch on the skin and it stays in constant contact and therefore it does leak through the skin and can get through that way.

I couldn't find anything that was suggesting that a water that had hydrogen gas bubbling through it was actually going to enter the skin and have these beneficial effects.

The only place that I could find that was suggesting that hydrogen-rich water was good for arthritis were websites selling hydrogen-rich water.

Sure.

And when they pointed to the science as evidence, they were pointing to the injectable studies that I was talking about.

Wow.

So nothing about bats that I could find.

You know, it's really interesting when you bring up that panacea, because I think it's a great point when you say that they, you know, there's all these things that they say, this is list, laundry list of things that it can cure.

What it reminds me of is when we used to think that all sickness came from one of four imbalances of the humors.

You know, it's like, well, your phlegm's out of line.

So we got to get, you know, that's going to fix all these things.

And you're like, yeah,

that's a really bad way to think.

We kind of moved past all that a long time ago, but it seems to harken back to that, where it's like, we have these, you know, two sort of buckets.

And

it's the inflammation bucket.

And inflammation causes a million problems.

And he will go on to mention, you know, all these things that you can do with it where it'll, it'll like suck stuff out of your skin and it'll, it just sounds so fantastic.

All the things he's mentioning sound so fantastic.

And like you suggest, it can just completely wipe away seven different things, which aren't even related.

That to me, like you say, man, huge red flags on that.

I want to boil down the cost of this again because it keeps, I keep getting, you know, I keep, I keep coming in and being like, well, how much does something like this cost?

So I looked it up.

Now he sells these tablets and you could put them in your tub, like, I guess like Alka Seltzer tablets or whatever.

They go in your tub and there's 60 tablets for $60.

So it's, it's basically, again, about a buck a tablet.

And I guess, you know, when I first saw it, I thought, oh, that kind of sounds like a deal in comparison to what's in a bath bump.

You know, it's like a whole bath bum.

And I thought, well, it's one, but then I looked at the actual directions.

Now, the directions say one bath tablet for every five gallons of water.

And I was like, well, crap, that now suddenly these turned into a lot more.

But

the directions continue.

This is around 15 to 20 tablets for a standard tub.

And I'm like, wait a minute.

How much water does a standard tub hold?

So I looked it up and it's 40 gallons.

So they're actually lying to you about how much a standard tub has.

Now, they're selling these to probably really wealthy people and maybe their standard tub is like a swimming pool.

I don't know.

But my standard tub certainly isn't 15 to 20 tablets worth.

But they are suggesting, their actual suggestion is you put about 15 to 20 of these in.

So for $60, you're getting between four and three baths with a $60 purchase here.

So it's a pretty expensive bath, if you ask me.

$15 for your bath.

And again, how often are you suggested to use this?

Now, there wasn't on the on the website, I didn't see a suggested amount to use it.

But what if you're supposed to do it every week?

That's an expensive thing to add to your regimen now.

Now we're doing $1 a day for water and we're adding 15 bucks to 20 bucks a week for your bath.

Okay, so now they're going to talk a little bit more about

these types of treatment with hydrogen.

Vascular laxity, how the laxity that's in your vessels matters.

Your blood viscosity matters.

And inflammation matters.

This is why when you look at the percentage of high blood pressure diagnoses, for example, if you were to just Google what percentage of hypertension, primary hypertension, essential hypertension,

or

high blood pressure is idiopathic, right, of unknown origin, you'd see that 85% of all high blood pressure, hypertensive diagnosis, are idiopathic.

We don't know the origin.

And so we examine these people's heart, EKG, EEG,

heart sounds, lung sounds, maybe a die contrast study, maybe a CT angiogram, maybe

some other kind of diagnostic diagnostic heart imaging.

We can't find anything wrong with the heart.

And we medicate the heart anyway, generally for a crime it's not committing, when there's an 85% chance it's actually something other than the heart.

And we never look to the microvascular circulation.

We never look to the 70% of our circulation that's actually not done by our heart.

What are we doing to cater to that 70% of our circulation?

Well,

things like resveratrol, hydrogen gas,

lowering our homocysteine, which is, for most people, is very simple to do.

I use an amino acid called trimethylglycine

to help people metabolize homocysteine because those microvasculature is very susceptible to high levels of homocysteine.

Again, look at how many things you need to be doing in order to stay well in good health.

You know, you're now adding in resveratrol to your hydrogen gas and your cold water plunges in your baths, trimethylglycine.

Then look at how many of these things he sells and notice that there's a big overlap on that Venn diagram.

Yeah.

And And when I hear this, he's just saying a bunch of like really big words and very specific language.

And I have no idea how those help high blood pressure, right?

He mentions a bunch of these things.

You know, you got things like restroveritol and hydrogen gas, and that lowers our homocysteine, which is for most people very simple to do.

I use an amino acid called trimethylglycine, and that helps metabolize

homocysteine.

And you're like, all he's saying all of these really big words, but like, I don't understand.

And when he goes on later on, we will play a bit where he tries to explain it in layman's terms, and it's completely confusing.

He's just using really big language and it, and it dazzles Joe.

And to be honest, if he was telling me this stuff, it would just wash over me because I don't know what he's talking about.

He's just using language in a way that's like, it's almost like the

piece of cloth in front of the magic trick, right?

There's like, a, he's using this as a way to sort of distract you from the fact that he's not really telling you anything.

He's just saying a bunch of like a string of long sounding words.

Yeah, absolutely.

All this vocabulary is because you can't hear a white coat on a podcast.

Because if you could get away with just wearing a white coat with a stethoscope around his neck and say like, hey, trust me, I'm wearing a white sculpt with a stethoscope.

He'd be doing that instead.

But this is the language version of that white coat.

We're going to take a short break.

We'll be back right after this.edu.

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So now we're going to find out sort of who he's interconnected with, who he has relationships with.

I got my blood drawn a couple of years ago and the doctor asked me if I was on cholesterol medication.

He said your cholesterol is really low.

He goes are you on medication?

I said no but I eat mostly meat.

Yeah

your

triglycerides will usually go down.

Your LDL cholesterol will go up if you're on a ketogenic diet.

Dr.

I think it's Nadir Singh is his name did an unbelievable he's a cardiologist did an unbelievable

YouTube video on this.

I actually did a podcast with Dr.

Asim Malhotra, who is a cardiologist.

Has he been here too?

Yeah.

Unbelievable.

Love that guy.

Hey, shout out to Asim.

He's an incredible, incredible guy.

And Asim would tell you the same thing, that, you know, he fought the British Medical Journal and

got publications that he was trying to have published, you know, pulled because he was fighting the narrative on statins, one of the biggest drugs in the world.

So, yeah, we've covered Asim Malhotra on the show before.

We covered his appearance on Rogan, how he was this

contrarian when it came to statins and made a name for himself, partly because he was the

cardiologist who'd speak out about statins, and partly because he was well connected to his father's role in various parts of the medical establishment in the UK and used that in order to parlay himself into a lot of medical, a lot of media attention.

So we have covered Asim Malhotra.

Quick update on

Asim Malhotra.

Just last weekend or the weekend before, he spoke at an annual conference of Reform UK, the far-right party in the UK, where he claimed that the COVID vaccine may well have been what was responsible for King Charles getting cancer.

Oh,

wasn't Charles's age or anything like that?

It must have been the COVID shot.

But let's just note that Malhotra is another person in Gary Brecker's world.

At the start of the interview, he talks about Cali Means.

He talks about RFK Jr.

You know, he's a breath away from RFK.

And being a breath away from RFK is what Malhotra came on Rogan to achieve, and he achieved it.

So it just shows how Rogan becomes this meeting point for health extremists.

Okay, so now we're going to talk about some interesting things where he talks about putting things in isolation.

And just like a lot of these randomized clinical trials, we look at things in isolation.

We study one thing in isolation.

One of the worst things we do, in my opinion, in modern science is study human anatomy or human physiology or biochemistry in isolation.

So we say we're going to take a cell out of the body.

We're going to put it in a lab.

We're going to look how it behaves in a petri dish.

And And then we're going to assume that when I put that cell back into the body, it's going to behave the same way.

And so we didn't solve for all of these other factors.

Well, what was the person's

insulin level?

What was their fasting glucose?

What was their hemoglobin A1C?

What were their other inflammatory markers like C-reactive protein, creatine phosphokinase?

What were the other lifestyle factors that were going on?

So this here, this comes just after he's been criticizing the use of randomized clinical trials, which we'll actually cover, I think, in the toolbox.

And what he's saying is RCTs, they look too much at specific things in isolation.

They don't take into account the entire picture.

And this idea of like, well, the main medical establishment looks at things way too much in isolation.

We've heard that before on Joe Rogan.

We heard it from Callie Means, Casey Means, this idea that doctors are only seeing the thing in their isolation.

If you're a throat guy, you just see the person as a throat.

But this is his kind of criticism on RCTs.

Now, for one thing, a well-done RCT will look at the baseline for those various different measurements if those measurements are relevant.

So you will look at like their fasting glucose or their insulin level if what you're looking at is if what you're studying is going to be relevant.

That you'll take that in the baseline.

You may even do the follow-up measure at various endpoints throughout the study.

So that is actually just a

false assumption about studies.

But notice, this is what he thinks when it comes to if you try and study something in an RCT when he doesn't like the RCT.

But if he has a study that supports him, as we've already seen and we'll see in other clips, even if it's a really small study, even if it's poorly controlled, even if it is literally financed by a commercial interest, he's going to cite that study as evidence that the thing he likes is worth buying.

So he changes his opinion on how to study things depending on what the results of that little study say.

And what's interesting is Joe Yassands him here in a way, because Joe talks about ivermectin being in vitro and how important that was for ivermectin to show that exactly this is exact, it works in vitro so therefore it's going to work in the human body and gary's saying the exact opposite here gary's saying well you know you can never tell whether or not something's going to work in vitro if it's going to work in the human body but joe will throw all that out when it comes to the things that he agrees with and like you suggest there's a lot of confirmation bias going on here they will find the things that confirm their biases and hug those really really tight and then throw away everything else that even comes close to you know suggesting that what they're what they're uh promoting is incorrect.

And then, you know, like listen to all the things, all the different types of words he's using.

There are things that he mentions in this where he talks about inflammatory markers, C-reactive protein, creatine, phosphokinase, and those types of things are things he sells in his store.

So when he mentions, he lists this, well, how is there this?

He's selling stuff to control that stuff in his store.

And when I hear him say, you know,

there sort of like a, you know, they're testing about these things, but are they paying attention to all these other things?

It gives him an opportunity to throw this study out because there's sort of a God of the gaps argument.

If they were testing for it, they would see that I'm right, but they're not testing for it.

They, so therefore, they're wrong.

And

there's an implication there that if they were testing for these things, they would see the things that Gary sees, but instead they're not testing for it.

And so they're blind and he's the one who can see.

Yeah.

And if they are testing for that, well, there's something else you should have been testing for because there's a lot of stuff to be tested for and you can't test for everything all the time.

Okay, so now they're going to talk about other types of medicine and how there's medical error.

If you look at the study that was done in 2016 by Harvard,

which determined that medical error was the third leading cause of death.

I think it was repeated by Hopkins in 2019, but the Harvard study in 2016 is very clear that the third leading cause of death in America is medical error.

And when you look into the study for why, you know, were doctors just killing people?

No.

What happened was they looked at ICD-9, ICD-10, ICD-11 codes, how they're coding,

you know, the diagnosis of what's happened to you.

I have to, as a doctor, I've got to sort of slot you into a diagnostic code so I can get reimbursed and you can get medication and we can all get paid.

But if I don't have a diagnosis to slot you into, I got to pick sort of the next nearest one.

So medical error is the third leading cause of death in the USA.

Is that true?

No, obviously it's not true.

Just think about that for a moment.

Before we actually look at the statistics, anybody who's listening, just think for a moment about the people you know who've died and how many of them died due to medical error.

And I would imagine for the vast majority of listeners, they know a lot.

They know a decent number of people who died and none of them died due to medical error.

So, just the numbers, like just from experience alone, this doesn't pass the sniff test.

So, let's actually look at what's going on here.

Well, I actually wrote about this for the skeptic magazine in 2021.

And what I wrote at the time was: according to the CDC, during 2019, which was the last year before COVID, essentially, that's non-COVID year, heart disease killed 659,000 people in America, followed by cancer at 599,000 people.

And then accidents as a category came in third at 173,000 people.

So accidents was the highest single killer of people that year that I could find.

But that was all accidents, not medical accidents, not medical error, which were counted under accidents.

That would be car accidents and accidental shootings because it's America.

It'd be falls.

It'd be drownings.

Those are on-purpose shootings.

Thank you very much.

We're America.

But it'd be all of those things plus medical error.

So by the CDC stats, given that all accidents came in third, the number of medical accidents would need to exceed the number of all accidents total for medical to be the third leading cause of death.

That is not possible.

It gets worse because this original source gets passed around an awful lot, this falsehood.

The original source is this study out of Johns Hopkins, which kind of Brecker references kind of in parts in Hopkins, I repeated it.

Basically, Johns Hopkins did a study which estimated that between 250,000 and 400,000 deaths per year in America were due to medical errors.

But given that there are 2.7 million total deaths per year in the US, that would mean that between 9% and 15% of all deaths were due to medical errors, which is such a high number.

More than 10% of all deaths would have to be medical error.

That is a ludicrously high number.

But it gets worse than that because the study was only accounting for deaths in hospital.

So that 250,000 were only for the deaths that happened in hospital, not in general day-to-day life.

So the study never actually ever claimed, even this study, it never claimed that medical error was the third leading cause of death overall, just that it was the third leading cause of death in hospitals.

And deaths in hospitals are a subset of deaths.

Everyone who dies in a car crash, not many of them die in hospital.

If you die, if you're dead on arrival, things like that.

But even then, that can't be true because there are 715,000 annual hospital-based deaths in the US.

So for this study to be accurate, about half of them need to be medical error, up to 400,000.

So none of this makes any sense.

And actually, look, when it turns out, when you look at the study,

the statistical basis on which they're claiming that figure of 250,000 to 400,000 is just not well evidenced at all.

And subsequent studies have evidenced that it isn't the case.

So look at how that one stat that appeared in this one study that's been taken out of context.

It was originally derived on very dubious initial ground.

It got elevated out of the context of being just about hospitals.

And then it got passed around as just a factoid of generally true about life as to how dangerous going to a hospital is or seeing a doctor is.

And now it's being used to support a position of don't trust medicine, trust Gary.

That is what's happened to that one particular factoid.

And it's just not the case.

What's interesting to me when I hear this and I see your link, which we'll put in the show notes.

We've heard this not only on this episode, but we've heard this in multiple episodes that Joe has done.

I'm not sure if it was Asim Malhatra or if it was Suzanne Humphreys who said this, but I'm pretty sure one of them said this, or at least a derivative of this, something similar to this.

And the person who you name in your article is another guest of Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, who is the person who must have said this in 2021 for you to react to it and write it.

So it seems to be that this is a talking point of people in this sort of sphere, in this Rogan sphere, to bring up over and over again.

I wonder why they keep bringing this up over and over again after the introduction of the COVID vaccine.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I believe it was actually the Casey Means interview.

Casey Means when Casey Means was on.

There you go.

So Casey Means said that when she was at medical school, she didn't learn that medical error and medication is the third leading cause of death in the United States.

So yeah, there you go.

So I knew it was someone we listened to, and I knew it was medical misinformation, but that's come up so often, Marsh, I don't remember exactly which one it was.

So yeah, exactly.

All right.

Now we're going to talk about a concept called standard of care.

And there is no diagnosis or way for me to be reimbursed or

to make a living.

If I go, look, Joe, your hemoglobin A1C is like 5.7.

You're early stage pre-diabetic.

You know, you've got a little abdominal obesity going on.

Your blood pressure is creeping towards the high side.

Your fasting glucose is really high.

Let's talk about some diet and lifestyle choices.

Tell me what's going on in your life.

What's a typical day of your diet look like?

You know, can I put you on a treadmill for 25 or 30 minutes?

Can I talk to you about intermittent fasting?

You know, can I talk to you about things like a whole food diet?

No, none of that.

All of that is outside the standard of care.

If something happens to you, and I haven't practiced within the standard of care, I'm at risk.

So that just isn't true.

The idea that when you see a doctor, they don't talk to you about diet and exercise just shows how like you are divorced from what it's like to go to a doctor.

Doctors, of course, they talk to you about changing your diet and getting more exercise.

In fact, it is

to a point of cliche that people, especially women, when they go to see a doctor, the first thing the doctor will say is, have you tried losing a little weight before you do anything else?

It is a cliche that that's the case.

Yeah, when I used to smoke, That was the first thing the doctor always said to me before they even addressed anything I was in there for was, you should stop smoking.

That was like literally the first thing they would say.

It had nothing to do with why I was there, but it was the first thing that came up.

They will talk of, they will look at your health record and they will make an adjustment based on that.

That happens to me all the time.

They talk about diet.

They talk about exercise.

They ask me questions about my diet and exercise.

This just proves that these people don't go to the same doctors that you and I go to.

They go to like really high-paid specialists that work on the Lakers' knees, I guess.

With that Rolex watches, with their Rolex watches and their really expensive cars.

And he talks about the standard of care here.

He talks about, well, they won't suggest a whole food diet and they won't suggest intermittent fasting and they won't suggest all these other things.

And it reminds me that he went to a chiropractic and naturopathic college.

So the people who visit those doctors, they deviate from the standard of care all the time.

That's their business model.

So he's, what he's doing, I think, is saying, hey, you can't get this.

You can't get this kind of quack therapy that we offer in a regular doctor.

You need to go to somebody who's actually not paying malpractice insurance.

Those people can offer.

They offer you all kinds of different things that you can't get at the doctor.

Of course, that's true.

Yeah, that's a great point.

And nothing I picked up on because obviously you found that he went to a chiropractic school.

So yeah, his thing is none of the real doctors will suggest the things that I'm suggesting.

And that proves how much the real doctors are wrong.

Yeah, that's his point.

Okay, so now they're going to talk about telomeres again.

They're going to bring this back up.

There's also that study out of Israel that showed the lengthening of telomeres when they did a protocol of 60 sessions,

90-minute sessions over 90 days.

Yes, 60 days or 60 sessions in 90 days.

60 sessions in 90 days.

60 90 minute sessions in 90 days.

You're right.

Yeah.

Dr.

Saunders talked about that a lot too.

And they showed a telomere lengthening, which was the biological equivalent of a decrease of age of 20 years.

Yeah.

It's a chromosome length cap.

So we're going to hear in the toolbox, like Gary saying that randomized control trials are bad.

But an hour later, here's Joe and Gary talking about a study that agrees with him.

Yeah.

So studies are only worth doing if they agree with the things that Gary and Joe think here.

And this is effectively like cherry-picking, but on steroids, because you're not just cherry-picking the results that you want, you're deciding whether hunger is even real based on whether you can find good cherries in it.

That is the cherry-picking we're doing here.

Okay, so now they're going to talk about these hydrogen bath bombs.

How much are those little bombs for the bath, the hydrogen bombs?

I know they're about to come out with them.

I don't know if you can order them on the site yet.

I think they're probably going to be.

If it's 30 bucks for 30 of those H2 tabs,

then I would imagine they're going to be around five or 10 bucks,

10 bucks for a hydrogen bomb to drop into

the bathtub.

Yeah, and listeners can get 10% off right now by using the code Rogan.

It's just an ad.

It really is.

It really is.

And he's also wrong about the pricing here.

It's either 50 to 100% more than what he's suggesting because of their recommended dosage on the bathtub.

Yeah.

All right.

So now they're going to talk more about studies in this next clip.

This is a kind of important thing to talk about because there was a study that was released recently that showed that when people use the cold plunge after workout, you see a decrease in hypertrophy.

Of course you do.

Yeah.

This is a terrible study.

Right.

It's a terrible study.

It's just off to see that.

Because people are like, yeah, torch it doesn't work.

All these pussies that don't want to get in that cold water.

Folks, you do the cold before.

This is the way to do it.

I know it sucks.

Do the cold before you work out or wait several hours after you work out and then you cold plunge.

So, yeah, Joe has very much caught on the method here.

It's a bad study because it disagrees with what you want to be doing.

It reminds me of all the studies that they threw out about ivermectin.

Then they cherry-picked the ones that they wanted to believe.

Even though there was multiple studies about ivermectin that were going around and hydroxychloroquine, they threw all those on the studio room floor, but they kept the ones that they really liked.

So they kept these very specific ones that confirmed their biases.

Okay, so now they're going to talk about collagen for a short time.

You know, I use the analogy that we don't eat our nails to grow our nails and we don't eat our hair to grow our hair, but we think that we can eat collagen to grow collagen.

And that's actually not true.

I'm not anti-collagen.

I'm just saying if you eat collagen or put collagen in your coffee, it doesn't show up as collagen in your skin.

My preference would be you take something that

has all of the nine essential amino acids.

I take one called perfect aminos, Aminos, but there's other products out there that are all nine essential amino acids.

You take um can I pour that into the water with the um hydrogen with the electrolytes in it, 100%.

It's not going to have any diminished I think the best morning cocktail is to take a mineral salt, like a Baja gold salt or a um uh Celtic salt, um, add that to your um drinking water, drop a hydrogen tablet in there, take a scoop of perfect aminos, put that in there, hydrate, mineralize, and get the amino acids.

Can I ask you another question about creatine?

He goes on to ask another question about creatine afterwards.

I want to talk about some of these things.

So, first off, listen to all that he mentions.

Listen to everything that he mentions there.

And it sounds like he's saying the best thing you could take is all the supplements I sell dissolved into water.

Because he says you can take perfect aminos, mineral salt, hydrogen tablet.

You know, you do all this other stuff.

And I want to, you know, it just seems like he's selling.

He's he's basically going through a list of the things.

And I'm going to list out how much each of these things cost in a moment.

But I want to circle back to the beginning of this where he talks about collagen.

And he says, look, we don't need our nails to grow our nails.

You don't need to eat your bones to grow your bones or whatever he said in the beginning of this.

He sells.

collagen peptides on his site.

So he says, I'm not anti-collagen.

I'm just saying you don't need collagen if you want to grow collagen.

And the description on his collagen supplement reads, quote, ensure optimal function of everything from skin, nails, and joint health with our collagen powder, end quote.

So

he's telling you you don't need to do this.

And then he sells on his site a thing that he is literally saying in Joe's podcast not to do.

So maybe he just forgot he's selling it.

Maybe his site's so big, he just forgot.

Let's go through, though, Marsh, really quickly, how much it costs to do the thing he suggests in the morning.

So he starts out with this Baja gold salt.

This Baja gold salt costs $17 for a pound of it.

Now, I buy a pretty expensive kosher salt myself, and that's six bucks for four pounds.

So it's a little cheaper than this, but it's $17 a pound, right?

Then he has this perfect amino powder.

That's $39 for 30 servings.

He also has electrolytes, which Joe suggests.

That's $51 for 30 servings.

And then hydrogen tabs are $30 for 30 servings.

Not counting the salt.

That's about $3.50 in supplements per drink per day.

So that's now we've gone up from what we talked about in the beginning of the show, which might be $30 a month, say, to do your hydrogen water.

Now we're up to $3.50 a day.

So over $100 a month just for your morning cocktail.

Now we're starting to get to a price point that

that that is really painful to a lot of people, I think.

Sure, if you're very wealthy, this isn't a thing.

350 doesn't matter.

But I remember plenty of articles saying, don't drink a $3.50 coffee a day and you can afford a house a couple years ago.

So let's, you know, these people are talking about something that is pretty expensive to input into your everyday life.

Yeah, absolutely.

At that point, you're on, what, $1,200 a year before you even get to that really expensive salt and then the other stuff that he's talking about as well.

Yeah.

All right.

So this is the last clip in the main event segment.

Well, thank you, Gary.

Thank you very much for everything.

I really appreciate you.

Tell everybody your website, how they can get a hold of you.

Sure.

You can go to theultimatehuman.com.

I have a VIP community there where all I do is just teach.

I try to educate to inspire so that people will make a change.

So you can join my VIP community there.

I'll give you a discount on joining the VIP community.

I'll send you a free box of H2 tabs for joining up.

TheultimateHuman.com.

The podcast is TheUltimate Human.

And then just my name, Carrie Braca.

All right.

Gary, you're the man.

Thank you, brother.

Appreciate you.

All right.

Bye, everybody.

And that's the end of Joe's show.

Could it be any clearer that Gary was on this show to sell his stuff?

Like, he ends with his website and then his podcast and his VIP scheme.

And he's even pitching his free gift on sign-up.

And this is just an infomercial.

And I think what I would say is, I don't think this is an infomercial in the traditional sense of pay-to-play.

You will get some podcasts out there.

Alex Jones will, for example, have people on, and that's because they've given him money to come on the show.

I don't think that's the truth with Gary.

I don't think that's the case with Gary.

I think Joe is super into all of this stuff.

And that's why he has Gary on.

But ultimately, it is still just an advert for all of the things that Gary sells.

And given the size of the audience, you've got to wonder how much he made from this appearance, just from the uptick in subscription to his VIP system and all this kind of stuff.

We're going to take a quick break and then move on to our toolbox section.

Wow.

So that's the tool bag?

And something just fell out of the toolbag.

Okay, so for the toolbox this week, argument from anecdote.

Yeah, so the argument from anecdote is essentially: why would you rely on studies that have got controls and protocols and systems of eliminating bias when you can just talk about that story you know about a person who totally had this happen to them?

So it's definitely, definitely true.

That is the argument for anecdote.

We don't need to cite studies.

We've got evidence.

And that evidence is my mate Jeff defor swears he did it.

But anecdotes, they're a terrible way to tell if something is true or not because reality is incredibly noisy and incredibly messy.

If you think about it, every single lottery winner has a friend who can say, they know someone who played the lottery and will.

Yeah.

But most people who play the lottery don't win.

So those anecdotes about the winners aren't reflective of the overall likelihood of it being true or being likely.

And health-wise, when someone tells you, well, I know somebody who had that condition and they took this and they got better, that might sound persuasive, but it's just one story.

You know, maybe that person got lucky and their condition just got better over time.

So the thing that they were doing seemed like it worked.

Maybe they had been unlucky and their diagnosis had been inaccurate and they weren't as sick as they thought they were.

So they seemed like they got better.

Maybe they took some other medication, but didn't mention it because it wasn't impressive to be taking the thing the doctor said.

You took this other thing as well, which the doctor didn't recommend.

And that must be the thing that did it.

Maybe they were never sick in the first place, but the person who's telling you the story wants you to think otherwise because they've got pills to sell you.

All of these things are at play and more when it comes to anecdotes.

So we can't trust individual anecdotes as evidence of anything.

Okay, so the first clip in the toolbox has an ad in it that we cut out.

So there's going to be a weird breath that hits in the middle of this, but it's because he's selling some other thing in the middle of this, of this particular clip.

Like I had Sean Ryan over to my house

for a podcast one time, and, you know, he's all banged up from being a Navy SEAL and he's got nips and bibles all over his body.

And he just thought it was really weird because I was like, dude, you got to get my bathtub.

He's talked about it before.

Sean, big shout out, brother.

But he was like, he's like, dude, I just met you, man.

And I was like, I go, no, it's.

It's okay.

I'm not going to get in there with you.

I'll sit on the chair outside the top.

He's like, that freaks me out a little bit.

I'm going to be honest with you.

I said, dude, I gave him a pair of shorts.

So, because I was like,

does anything on your body hurt?

Do you, you know, your knees, your hips, your shoulders, does anything hurt?

And he's like, dude, fucking everything in my body hurts.

So I was like, get in there, man.

And

I put him in there for 25 minutes.

He said it was like the first time he had slept eight hours and woken up without pain in probably 15 years.

Wow.

Yeah.

John Jones, same thing.

You know, I mean, John Jones has been very public about when I, you know,

working with me, I've been talking to him in a little while, but right before his last fight,

I brought him one of these hydrogen machines to bathe in.

And we just set up the tub at his house, and we ran hydrogen gas into the tub.

So we would do red light therapy.

He would drink hydrogen water, and

he would bathe in this hydrogen gas.

And it was about 15 or 20 days after I kind of parachuted into his camp and

set all this up that he texted me.

He was like, holy shit, brother, I can't believe I'm, you know, I'm out of pain.

I'm adding a sixth day to to my training routine.

I'm waking up, not in pain.

You know, I'm sleeping better.

So, you know, there we are.

Two really impressive anecdotes.

The first one being, I knew a Navy SEAL who told me he was in pain.

And then after 25 minutes of lying in my bathtub, he felt fine again.

Was he just saying that to be polite?

Was he fooling himself?

Was it just that taking a bath is relaxing, especially when you're in pain?

Did the effect last?

Did his pain come back?

Is this story accurate?

Did it even happen?

We've got no idea because the Navy SEAL, he's not here to tell you that.

And even if he was here to tell you that, it's one uncontrolled story.

It's not reflective of what's going to happen in the majority of cases.

It's just an anecdote.

Yeah.

And with John Jones, it's either the things that he suggested or the performance enhancing drugs he got suspended two times for taking from the UFC.

It's one or the other.

I don't know which one it is.

And then taking something else at the same time.

You know, look, I'm going to talk about John Jones for a second.

This guy's a pro athlete.

He's doing a million things that a regular person cannot do.

He's probably going to physical therapy all the time, working with a trainer, eating properly, you know, constantly has someone monitoring all these different functions of his life because he has to, that's his living.

That's how he makes his living.

So he employs probably a bevy of people to do all this work for him.

So he's, you know, maybe he's getting.

all kinds of tests every single day that he's following and has, you know, maybe even has an on-staff doctor or someone who's like a doctor who can tell him all the things he's doing wrong or right.

These are important things when there's like tiny little bits that'll make you a better athlete.

And those

a lot of athletes do this.

This is a professional athlete that makes a lot of money that can do this sort of thing.

Very different from a normal person.

So we shouldn't even be taking into account some of the anecdotes that they're mentioning when we're talking about, you know, these really wealthy people who have a lot of money, who can do a lot of things and live a relatively stress-free life.

I mean, you know, we're talking about the difference between someone who's working two jobs to just make

ends meet and then Joe Rogan, who in this podcast talks about how he spends every day two and a half hours working out and sitting around in between sets so he can rest his muscles completely.

I don't know anybody who has two and a half hours every single day to work out in their schedule.

I don't know a single person that has to be a fabulous, fabulously wealthy person in order to sort of sustain that kind of lifestyle.

So it's important to mention these, the people he's going to bring up, these are people of incredible privilege.

All right.

Now he talks about his wife in this next clip.

When I bathe in that hydrogen gas, so my wife, Sage,

had a really bad car accident right before we met 10 years ago, and she severely damaged her spine, her L5S1, and ended up having to have a spinal fusion.

And so her L5S1 is fused.

And even though she's thin, she's fit,

she

gets a lot of low back pain.

And when her back pain flares up, there's no chance she's sleeping.

But when we put her into that hydrogen nanobath, I mean, 25 minutes in there, she sleeps like a little baby.

And it's very calming, too.

It's that shifting you from that sympathetic state, that kind of fight or flight, to that parasympathetic state of rest and digest.

You can feel that the effects of that hydrogen gas when it goes transdermal and starts to relax you.

So, I found a study on PubMed that says, should hydrogen therapy be included in a musculoskeletal medicine routine?

And here's a quote from it: It would take many more studies and tighten regulation before H2 therapy can be endorsed as a routine protocol in musculoskeletal medicine.

In the meantime, H2 should be regarded as an experimental agent and not recommended to treat muscle or bone conditions in the general population.

End quote.

Yeah, that's what the study says.

But we have the anecdote from his wife.

But you know, notice even within this anecdote, he says, you know, she's got this back pain.

And when it flares up, she struggles to sleep.

When it flares up, so there are times that it isn't flared up.

This naturally is the kind of thing that will come and go, that will wax and wane.

So there'll be times when she's feeling particularly bad.

And inevitably, because it comes and goes, when you seek treatment at your worst, when it's feeling the worst, there is only one way to go from there.

And that is up.

And anything you do will feel like it's improvement.

But if you weren't doing anything, maybe it would come up by itself.

But again, even if it's not that, we've got a story of someone who had back pain, having a bath and the bath relaxing in them and making them feel better.

Well, warm water and lying down are generally good things to do when you have back pain.

But also beyond that, how much can we just take the word of the guy selling us the product that that his wife swears by his product?

Is this a standard that Joe Rogan would accept if, for example,

the inventor of a COVID vaccine said, my wife took it and she feels great?

Would Joe be like, oh, well, in that case, give me the vaccine.

I'm well on board with it.

No, he'd still have questions, but he should have questions here.

It's just an anecdote.

Okay, so now they're going to talk about a twin study in this next clip.

It would be so fascinating to run a study, a long-term study on twins, identical twins, and have one person just eat the standard American diet and the other person follow all these protocols.

Hydrogen gas, fitness, healthy food, no seed oil, no drinking, and just see.

What do they look like after 20 years?

10 years.

Yeah, or 20 years.

20 years would be wild.

Wild.

Be like sending one of them to space, you know.

Gosh, it sounds like they're talking about fan fiction here.

None of this is true.

It's just them speculating on what would happen.

Well, that's really cool.

Awesome speculation, guys.

Twin studies, they can be interesting observational studies, but you do observational studies when you can't do real research.

Now, if you can't do real research, then having two people who are basically identical is a useful thing to do.

But you definitely can do real double-blinded, placebo-controlled research on almost all of the things that they're talking about in terms of, you know, the diet, the fitness, the supplements, the various other things they've been talking about this entire show.

With hydrogen gas, for example, you just need a pill versus a fake pill, you know, and then enough controls around it.

So you know that the pill is the thing that's different and people don't know what they're getting and the people giving out the pills don't know what they're getting.

But you just, it's an easy control to do.

And hydrogen water, the control is a regular bath, you know, hydrogen water bath versus regular bath.

It's possible to do.

They just don't like the results when those studies get done.

And that's why they throw these studies out.

But even if you were looking to do observational research, when it comes to seed oils that Joe mentions, when it comes to alcohol, you know, no drinking, we have that observational research.

We've got huge population-level data.

We've been using vegetable oils for thousands of years, and there have always been drinkers and non-drinkers.

We have a very clear picture of what the benefits are and the risks are.

But again, some of those don't really matter to these guys because they instead want a single anecdote that they can point to.

What did Gary's wife say about vegetable oils?

That's the thing that really

will sway it for me.

Okay, so now they're going to talk about medicines and things that have been around for a very long time.

And it's so funny because, you know, we're so wrapped around our medical system that's really 50, 60 years old, 70 years old, and how important a randomized clinical trial is and placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial that's been peer-reviewed and all of this.

But we negate the Eastern philosophies that very often have been around for thousands of years.

And I almost have more, lend more validity validity to something that's actually stood the test of time.

Like something that doesn't work is not going to last a thousand years,

you know, by virtue of the fact that it doesn't work.

When we were in the mortality space, we never used randomized clinical trials.

We used big data.

And I think what you're about to see now that I was alluding to before is we've built an entire system on

the most rigorous scientific study being the randomized clinical, you know, placebo-controlled randomized clinical trial.

And so that is the gold standard.

And if it hasn't been through this process, it is not valid.

Well, we've never done randomized clinical trials on parachutes, but I wouldn't jump out of an airplane without one.

Who wants to be in that?

Who wants to be in the control group?

Okay, Stan.

Yeah.

You line up here.

You're getting a knapsack and a prayer book, and we're getting a parachute.

That's a very good point.

It's a very good point where there's some things you really can't run randomized controlled studies on.

Yeah, it's not a good point.

It's not a good good point.

There are some things you can't run randomized control trials on, but supplements aren't one of those things.

Parachutes, you can't because

you give someone a placebo parachute and they'll die.

That's not the case with

the supplements here.

But Gary's saying here that he doesn't believe in randomized control trials.

He's not a fan of them.

So he's basically saying that his products aren't going through them.

We use big data rather than RCTs.

Well, I wonder why Gary's products aren't relying on RCTs.

But we've also seen when they have an RCT that they like, they'll cite it.

So they only throw out the RCTs when it disagrees with them.

When they found one, oh, here's this Israel telomere study.

Let's point to that.

And they'll do that with many other sort of studies throughout the hydrogen gas.

They were talking about a particular study.

Gary's saying here, well, you know, something that doesn't work isn't going to last a thousand years.

I believe in like the ancient wisdom of it.

We should follow that kind of thing because if it doesn't work, it's not going to last a thousand years.

Okay, well, name something that's lasted a thousand years in terms of treatments and things.

There aren't many treatments that have lasted a thousand years.

But other than, for example, if you want to name something that's been around thousands of years, what about seed oil?

We've been using seed oils for about 5,000 years when we called them vegetable oils at the time and have done from up until the start, like the middle of my lifetime when they've suddenly switched in the last couple of years or whatever.

But also, it's not a good measure to say it wouldn't last, it wouldn't

last the test of time if it didn't work, because maybe it offers a different benefit in some way that isn't the one that they're claiming.

Religion, for example,

religion is incredibly old, but the fact that it's religion has lasted so long doesn't mean that the world was created in seven days.

It might just be that religious rituals do something to society, that it's useful in various forms of society throughout history in order to create an in-group and therefore an out-group and that kind of social cohesion.

They might have that kind of being the benefit of religion.

It doesn't mean that it's true.

But yeah, when they say, when he says, Joel says there are some things you can't run LCTs on,

he's fine with that when it comes to supplements, but he'll complain that the vaccines were rushed out without proper studies and safety data.

Great point.

Isn't a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic more analogous to the parachute than the supplement version of things?

Like, yeah, if you don't have something, you're going to die.

So maybe we do have to rush things out or skip some of the basic steps in order to get to something out there.

So Joe, by his own argument, should be pro-vaccine on that.

And he just isn't because it's not about the argument he's making.

It's about the position he wants to defend.

That's a great point.

They talk in the beginning of this about how, you know, oh, we're so wrapped up in the last 50 or 60 years of medicine and not in the thousands of years of medicine we had before.

Imagine if they talked about any other technology like that.

Imagine if they were like, oh, gosh, we're so wrapped up in these computers, but we just have thrown the abacus right out because we're just using these calculators nowadays.

Sometimes we have incredible advances in technology, and that leads us to throw out entire models of things that we've been doing for a very long time.

That happens a lot.

It doesn't just happen with medicine.

It happens a lot.

And we've had incredible advances in medicine.

And we are a victim of our own success when it comes to how well these things work and how well we're able to work in the human body nowadays.

Because we live long times and we, you know, now we can, we can fix a lot of things, not everything, but a lot of things that are wrong with the human body.

People People start to think, well, it was really these things that we used to do a long time ago and not sort of these incredible advances in human health that we've made over the last 50 or 60 years.

They're willing to throw all that out and move forward and go back to, you know, some, a standard that is, that is laughable today, but they, but they seem to think, and again, I think it's because Gary's selling you stuff.

Gary's selling you stuff that.

And he also has a mindset of this sort of Eastern medicine.

When you talk about chiropractic, you talk about nitropathic medicine.

those types of things feed into that Eastern medical philosophy.

And so, this is really important for him to sell to people.

Yeah, or at least they sit alongside that

philosophy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, but the thing is, look at what he's saying about the, it's all about the ancient stuff, the stuff that's been around for thousands of years.

That's the stuff that lasts a test of time.

Therefore, buy my machines to do hydrogen baths and red light therapy.

Yeah, yeah, all right.

Okay, so now, uh, we're going to talk about an anecdote with his daughter.

And it was in your home.

It was in it was actually in my daughter's apartment.

We actually ended up having our doctor write a letter and break her lease, and we moved her into an apartment right next to us in

Coconut Grove in Florida.

But she was starting to have, and she's a nurse, and she was starting to have these strange symptoms, just brain fog.

Her joints were just killing her.

In the morning, by the end of the day, her ankles were swollen.

Her mood started to collapse, like the peaks and valleys of her mood kind of went away.

She

and she was, you know, I was bringing her over to the house.

And obviously, as a biohacker, I'm trying to solve everything.

So I was like, we got to do this vibrant well and this test medicine.

We got to figure out what's going on.

And then, boom, the mold just jumped off the chart.

Our youngest daughter, too, is suffering from recurrent sore throats.

Okay, so he mentions this vibrant wellness test multiple times throughout.

It's like a test that tests all kinds of stuff and it costs a lot of money.

It costs $500.

But in any case,

I wonder how much medical advice we should take from someone who has mold in their home.

It feels like something you would notice and something you would probably want to take care of and remediate right away.

Well, that's assuming that.

So I think you're picturing mold a little differently to what these tests will say.

This isn't the mold on the walls.

This is the mold that invisible spores knocking around in the air that these tests alone can tell you you have uh you've got i don't think we should accept his word that he has mold in his home you know there are a lot of these types of tests where they will say they're testing for all sorts of things by doing like a blood test or a pinprick test or something like that and they will tell you you've got mold in your system but actually tests aren't accurate mold is one of the things they come back with as is parasites things like that and they are things that tell you why you're sick so they can sell you the cure

So I don't know.

I haven't looked into the exact test exactly,

but I would be very, very skeptical that these tests are telling you accurately what's really going on with you.

And, you know, we're in the anecdote section.

If you want to throw on anecdotes like he is about his daughters here,

I wonder if there's something that might be going on that might have caused...

brain fog, joint pain, and recurrent sore throats.

Yeah.

Could there be anything that has symptoms like that for one of his daughters?

Or his other daughter, who is a nurse?

Could anything have been happening over the last, say, five years that might cause mood issues and various things like that?

You know, there may be some other explanations for some of the anecdotes that we're seeing that Gary is not really on board with admitting is the kids.

Hmm.

I wonder what might have happened in the last five years.

Crazy.

All right.

Last clip in the toolbox section.

This is talking about his parents.

There's something called EWAT exercise with oxygen therapy, which is kind of based on Otto Warburg's research where, and I do this with my parents because both of my parents are deconditioned.

My mom has dual knee replacements and my dad's handicapped from a boating accident years ago.

He has no cognitive impairment, but he has some motor coordination difficulties.

So it's hard for him to really exercise.

And

I bought them a sauna and I put them both in a sauna for 20 minutes, three times a week.

And they just breathe, I bored a hole and they just breathe through a nasal cannulus, the 92, 93% O2, which is a version of EWAT, the exercise with oxygen therapy or the multi-step oxygen therapy, because if you just can raise their heart rate just a little bit with the heat,

then that extra perfusion pressure really drives oxygen into the tissues and i'll tell you it's a noticeable change in them just like when you get out of a cold plunge you had a really good workout

well imagine you know you're elderly and you're deconditioned you know you really don't get your heart rate up you really don't get your good sweat on but you go into a sauna raise your heart rate and and breathe some of that 92 93 percent o2 you feel they they feel amazing getting out of there

So, yeah, his parents aren't here on the show, but he's the one telling us their story.

Okay.

he says he does this whole thing with the sauna and there is a noticeable change.

But he's the one doing the noticing and he is motivated to notice something.

You know, this is all hugely prone to his biases.

He's the one saying, do this thing.

He's the one advocating it to Joe's audience and he's the one bringing this story, which proves that the thing he thinks is a good idea is in fact a good idea.

And just think about what we've seen, even just in this one toolbox here.

In the course of this interview, he's told anecdotes where he's helped out with the health of of his wife, both of his daughters, and both of his parents, along with at least two of his friends.

Is there anyone in his life who aren't anecdotes to be used to prove the value of the things that he's selling?

So far, I haven't seen.

Maybe he's got other family members he has not brought up, but I think if the interview had gone on for longer, they'd be coming up as well.

It's like a whole family reunion podcast.

Yeah, it really is.

I can map out his entire family tree from just what treatments he says works for people that he

So, the last thing, given that we've heard so much of the stuff that Gary has been recommending, one of the things I wanted to do was just recap the various different things that you have to do in order to do or take or buy in order to stay healthy.

Because, again, you said throughout the show here that each of these things is taking up time, is taking up money.

And they're individually, maybe not a great deal, each one, but you have to do all these things.

So, this is a list.

This is, as far as I can tell, a fairly exhaustive list of the things that Gary recommends throughout this show in kind of Gary's medical cabinet.

So he's talking about the H2 tab hydrogen gas tablets, which he calls probably my favorite biohack in the world.

Those are available on his website.

Yeah, there's hydrogen baths, there's cold plunge therapy, and there's hydrogen gas in cold plunge tubs.

Those are also available on his website.

Yeah.

Each morning, you've got to take perfect aminos and essential amino acids, which are part of his daily stack, which are nine essential amino acids and two essential fatty acids.

Available on his website.

There's omega-3 fats, EPA DHA, which he says are essential supplements to consider, and that he buys them from a company called Thorn.

Then there's Baja Golden Sea Salt, which is a trace mineral sea salt with 91 trace minerals as part of his hydration and mineralization stack.

Those are available on his website.

There's vitamin D3 in various strengths.

On his website.

Magnesium, which is the magnesium breakthrough, which has seven forms of magnesium in it.

Magnesium citrate for constipation,

magnesium glycinate for sleep, and magnesium malate for muscles.

Website.

Then there's methyl folate and methylcobalamin.

Website as well.

The simple B complex, obviously.

That's available on his website, but it's in his children's gummies.

So

there's adenosylmethanionine.

There's beta-hydroxybutyrate.

There's thiamine.

There's resveratrol, which he's mentioned here as a compound that will improve circulation.

Multiple types on his website.

Yeah, there's trimethylenglycerin betane, which is recommended for lowering homocysteine.

Now, that's available on his website, but it's backordered right now, so you're going to have to wait.

Okay, maybe back ordered after this show, in fact.

Melatonin, which he says is a sleep enhancement aid.

And there's also L-thionine for relaxing or improving sleep quality.

That's available on his website, but it's in a supplement called Sleep Formula, very specifically.

Then there's the vibrant wellness test that you've got to do to see if there's mold and things going on in your system.

There's EBO2.

There's gut binders and activated charcoal binders.

Those are on his website too.

High dose glutathionine.

So are those.

Red light therapy.

That's also there too.

And then the sauna therapy and the hyperbaric

oxygen chambers.

And also he recommends sleeping or spending time in an electromagnetic frequency free tent.

Yeah, he does.

You know, while I was reading this list of yours and looking up all this stuff on the website, I did come across something that is sort of a fun fact.

So fun find on his site.

He sells a superhuman protocol system, Marsh.

It looks like it's a red light bed, some kind of oxygen device that I could not

figure out what it was for, and then a mat of some kind.

That is $135,000 on his website.

Wow.

So, yeah, it seems like quite a bit of money could be spent at this person's website.

I wonder,

when you charge $135,000 to your credit card, how does that go through?

Do you get a call from your bank after that?

I wonder.

I don't know how that even goes through on a website.

Yeah, I have no idea.

That's incredible.

It's genuinely incredible.

I'm the last person that thinks I'm smart.

Trust me.

All right, Marsh.

We're at the end of the show.

Anything good in this one?

It is a real struggle.

It's a real struggle to find something.

The closest I could get, there's a part where Joe talks about having like a meathead mentality that he used to have towards exercising, which is like you push too far and push too hard.

And he realized he was doing himself some damage.

So he tried to like stop himself having this meathead mentality of like push as hard as you can and try to listen to his body a bit more and stop injuring himself with exercise.

I guess, I mean, that's good advice, sort of in amongst all of the terrible advice.

And very, it came very, very quickly after him talking about the bitch in the general.

So

which are, which we'll come to in the gloves off segment.

So yeah, it's not great, but that advice on working out is about as good as I can find in here.

Yeah, I think you're right.

There's also a couple of points in this where they just talk about certain things that are happening in their life, like the amount of stuff they own and the sort of the places that they go and things like that.

And I guess like that's not necessarily damaging.

It's just them sort of talking about their fabulously wealthy lives for a little while, like how they get to go and just go hunt for a week and take a week off and just go hang out in the wilderness.

And so they spend some time talking about outdoorsness and wildernessness outside.

And I guess that that's, it's fine.

It's not necessarily damaging.

So that to me seems like a positive.

But most of this is literally just telling you what's on Gary's website.

Yes, it is.

Yeah.

It's basically a catalog for his site at this point.

Yeah.

Well, on that.

not very something good note uh that's it for the show this week remember you can access more than half an hour of bonus content every single week from just as little as a dollar an episode.

You can do that by subscribing at patreon.com forward slash no Rogan.

And meanwhile, you can hear more from Cecil at Cognitive Dissonance and Citation Needed, and more from me at Skeptics with a K and the Skeptic podcast.

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