Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1025

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Speaker 4 I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show and episode four of our special series, Megan Kelly Investigates.
We're tackling the disappearance of baby Lisa.

Speaker 4 She vanished from her crib in the middle of the night in October of 2011. Today, she'd be a teenager.
But where is she and who took her? Someone knows.

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Speaker 2 The Kansas City police have stiff-armed the press, saying next to nothing about this case publicly. Neither Kansas City PD nor the FBI would talk to us.

Speaker 2 And philanthropist Christy Haas Schiller's offer of a $100,000 reward for any information that could lead to the return of Lisa remains unclaimed. If you could write that $100,000 check,

Speaker 2 it'd probably be the most delightful money you ever spent in your life.

Speaker 6 Absolutely.

Speaker 7 Still don't have hope.

Speaker 2 While 42-year-old John Tanko, known as Jersey, may seem to have been the best suspect given his criminal history and that mysterious call from the Irwin's stolen phone to the phone of Tanko's ex-girlfriend, Megan Wright, on the night baby Lisa went missing, No arrests were ever made.

Speaker 2 In 2011, police said they had moved on from Tanko, and there appears to have been little to no movement on this case in the nearly 13 years since it started.

Speaker 2 Jeremy and Deborah have been left in limbo. There were yearly vigils.

Speaker 4 Please, God, keep her safe until she is home with us.

Speaker 2 And occasional interviews, including one with me that aired in January 2014.

Speaker 10 When I interviewed you a couple years ago, Deborah, you said even back then you were looking in the crowd whenever you pass a child who would be Lisa's age.

Speaker 11 Yeah, we actually, I did it all day today when we were walking around before we came here to see you. And

Speaker 11 I just said to Jeremy, I'm really tired of looking at everybody else's kiddo, but it's mine.

Speaker 2 This has to be its own form of torture. Jeremy Irwin.

Speaker 12 I think about her every day.

Speaker 12 It doesn't go away and

Speaker 12 the pain is still there and

Speaker 12 just feel like you're not complete.

Speaker 2 Do you ever feel bitter, Jeremy? You know, I would feel, I think I'd feel bitter, you know, that my child was taken, that I didn't get this time, that if she's still out there, I've missed so much.

Speaker 12 Yeah, there's a lot of that. And

Speaker 12 I mean, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty frustrating. And you have a lot of hate and anger on

Speaker 12 aspects like that.

Speaker 12 But there's nothing you can do about it. And that's not going to help get Lisa home any faster.

Speaker 12 So, I mean, it's frustrating that everybody's still out living their life and going to the grocery store and doing whatever they want to do. And meanwhile, we're just left to sit in the ashes.

Speaker 2 Deborah Bradley.

Speaker 9 You know, it's

Speaker 9 really hard as she gets older and still not having her home and thinking about all the things I continue to miss out on. And it's like all of us have been robbed of that.

Speaker 9 And that is really hard to accept.

Speaker 16 I just just started reading stuff

Speaker 16 and just writing down a name here and a name here. And then I started doing my own searches.

Speaker 2 Deborah's aunt, Cindy Lorette, has been relentless, constantly searching for clues, trying to piece together what may have happened.

Speaker 18 I've done my own thing because there isn't anybody to help.

Speaker 20 I have sat in courtrooms.

Speaker 16 I have done my own surveillances. I visited people in jail that I didn't know.
I don't really want to tell you everything I did, but I did a lot of stuff.

Speaker 16 But everything that I was reading throughout the internet, it just kept leading me back to the area that I was living at. So I got a job at this little convenience store.

Speaker 20 And I didn't tell anybody who I was.

Speaker 16 I just listened. I wanted to know things.
I wanted to, and I did, I started to hear things.

Speaker 18 I mean, people talk.

Speaker 2 Kansas City moms, Missy Rasmussen and Jackie Heller, who are writing a book about this case, have spent more than a decade looking for leads. Where did that take you? What did you find?

Speaker 17 It led us down some

Speaker 17 bad places, some bad neighborhoods, talking to some bad people.

Speaker 2 Was your theory starting to develop in a different direction from where the mainstream narrative was going, Missy?

Speaker 23 Yeah, definitely the mainstream narrative here is either Jersey or the mom. It is overwhelming how many people think that Deborah had something to do with it.

Speaker 22 Nobody in this town is looking for her because they think her mother killed her and she got away with it.

Speaker 2 Much of what they've heard is secondhand and goes to some very dark places, to drug dens, to baby brokers, to terrible conclusions. My understanding is that

Speaker 2 you guys have spoken to at least five people about this theory that some criminal element somehow connected to the family was responsible for this and that at least three of them mentioned the sale, the sale of a baby.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Correct.
Right.

Speaker 2 In 2021, Deborah said much the same to a local reporter. What are you sure of, Deborah?

Speaker 15 If the tips are right

Speaker 11 and the information we were given is right,

Speaker 2 she was sold.

Speaker 19 You believe she was sold?

Speaker 15 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 To add to that theory, one month after Lisa went missing, Deborah and Jeremy found a charge on a debit card, $69.04,

Speaker 2 paid to a British company that called itself a name-changing service. This is one of the theories that, of course, puzzles me.

Speaker 2 How would the person wanting to steal baby Lisa

Speaker 2 think that they were going to get away with stealing baby Lisa on this night where the mother is at home?

Speaker 23 There is nothing about walking into someone's house and taking their baby that makes any sense to me. But I don't know that the person doing that was

Speaker 23 a logical, rational, you know, person the way that you and I are.

Speaker 2 So, if it has to do with drugs, in other words, they might have been out of their minds.

Speaker 8 Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 15 I would guess for sure.

Speaker 2 If we think that there might have been a criminal drug element involved in this,

Speaker 2 and you guys have been out there investigating this for all this time, you know, pretty publicly, Is there any fear on your part about your safety?

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 17 Yes. We've had people tell us,

Speaker 17 you know, we'll tell them, you know, there's a hundred thousand dollar reward. And they're saying, well, what good is the reward if I'm not alive to spend it?

Speaker 2 Do you ever like do your own investigation, start talking to people about what they know, what they saw? Jeremy Irwin.

Speaker 25 Yeah, I mean, we...

Speaker 12 We did for a long, long time. And I mean, most of the stuff that we've gotten stories that people have heard from other people.

Speaker 12 So it's a lot of it's third-person stories. And I think there's real merit in a group of individuals that operate in that area that

Speaker 12 get rid of kids and illegally adopt or what, however you want to phrase it, but take in children that they're not supposed to have and redistribute them.

Speaker 12 That's definitely going on up here. And

Speaker 12 at least at the time when I was talking with the investigators about it,

Speaker 12 they laughed in my face about it.

Speaker 2 Other storylines that have circulated amongst the locals involve Deborah interacting with the drug underworld, possible urban myths with no proof, including one that baby Lisa was handed off to pay a drug debt.

Speaker 2 Was there anything that you, looking back, may have done to bring any of that cast of characters into your life?

Speaker 12 You know, certainly, certainly not us,

Speaker 12 but we had people nearby that were into that lifestyle.

Speaker 2 And you and Deborah never went there, scored drugs, called for anything from anybody connected to that place?

Speaker 12 Oh, no, no, never, 100%.

Speaker 2 Did they ever accuse you or Jeremy of being on drugs or having a connection to this house? Deborah Bradley?

Speaker 14 No, because we offered samples of our hair.

Speaker 2 So they can test hair and find out anything and everything you've done. Some drugs, including methamphetamine, can be detected this way.

Speaker 9 And so they were able to tell that I was telling the truth about that.

Speaker 14 That, as far as that, if there was a connection and that was it, that's null and void.

Speaker 6 That's just not even an option.

Speaker 2 So I ask you for the record: have you been on drugs? Were you on drugs around the time Lisa went missing?

Speaker 24 Absolutely not.

Speaker 2 And how about Jeremy?

Speaker 15 Absolutely not.

Speaker 2 It just wasn't your thing. You were not somebody who partook.

Speaker 15 No, I watched in high school, watched friends suffer from addiction, and I didn't want to be that way.

Speaker 24 I just seen so much suffering.

Speaker 24 Aside from the fact that it's just not appealing to me. And as a parent, that'd be the last thing on my mind.

Speaker 2 Don't do crystal meth and you didn't do crystal meth at the time she disappeared.

Speaker 15 Oh, God, no.

Speaker 13 No.

Speaker 8 No.

Speaker 21 Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because I'm sure you've heard that some people theorize you or Jeremy had a connection to this drug den and brought this cast of nefarious characters into your life, and one of them took her.

Speaker 14 But those people should ask the cops about the

Speaker 6 DNA analysis on our hair and the drug test analysis on our hair. It's not there for a reason because it doesn't exist.

Speaker 15 So at least I have proof of that.

Speaker 2 Reporter Jim Spellman covered the case for weeks after the story broke.

Speaker 27 I have have seen not one bit of information to indicate that Deborah Bradley, Jeremy Irwin,

Speaker 27 or anybody in their family was involved in some sort of drug thing. And I'll tell you, Megan, I'm a drug addict in recovery.

Speaker 27 I've been clean for 21 years now, and I'm pretty good at figuring out drug addicts.

Speaker 27 The idea that Deborah Bradley or Jeremy Irwin were some sort of drug addicts in deep to dealers or something like that is ridiculous.

Speaker 27 I put, you know, as close to certainty that that is not the case as I can come, not, you know, not blood testing people.

Speaker 2 And now you are going to hear the absolute worst, darkest versions. Again, these are most likely urban myths.
We just don't know about what may have happened to Lisa.

Speaker 2 And we do need to warn you, they come with awful, grisly details. Author Jackie Heller.

Speaker 17 And this is what really breaks my heart about this whole thing is the one one consistent narrative that we have found in this story is that Lisa is no longer with us.

Speaker 2 What you're saying is you've talked to people who think they know what happened and who say the baby was killed.

Speaker 16 Yes.

Speaker 17 We had someone tell us that Lisa is in the bottom of Smithville Lake and they put her body in a duffel bag and made sure that the blocks weighed more than she did.

Speaker 17 So there was no chance of her body coming up.

Speaker 14 Those are the kind of of things that we've, that we've heard about this.

Speaker 2 Cindy Lorette, Deborah's aunt, heard something even darker.

Speaker 16 Somebody had Lisa

Speaker 16 and they got scared because the media, it became such a big deal. That person got scared and he

Speaker 16 chopped Lisa up. He took her to this house.
And one of the people that was in the house told me this story. that she was brought to the house and they were at the edge, the end of the bed and

Speaker 16 she was crying and they said to um

Speaker 2 get the fucking baby out of the house I still don't know what to believe we managed to get our hands on police documents with equally dark testimonials these are supplemental interview reports that police do not make public They reflect interviews with two different men who claim to know something about the Baby Lisa case.

Speaker 2 We have confirmed confirmed the case file numbers on these reports, and we've spoken with both men, Chad Huber and the second man interviewed who asked us not to use his name.

Speaker 2 They confirmed their conversations with Kansas City Police Officer Michael Wells, the very same name that appears in these documents.

Speaker 2 It appears that Officer Wells was investigating a car theft ring, among other things. We discussed these police interviews with co-authors Missy Rasnusson and Jackie Heller.

Speaker 2 These are follow-up interviews with people who have been charged with unrelated petty crimes, theft crimes and so on, just a few months after Baby Lisa disappeared.

Speaker 2 And this is a police interview with someone named Chad Huber. Do you guys know that name? Have you heard of Chad Huber?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 2 Okay, so back in 2012, Chad Huber apparently had thoughts on Baby Lisa and named three new people with a possible connection to this case. Three new names we have not discussed in this series.

Speaker 2 Matt Shaver,

Speaker 2 Boris Dubinsky, and Cody Alnutt. Huber also mentions one that you'll be familiar with, Dane Greathouse.

Speaker 2 This is complicated and a lot to follow. Bear with me.

Speaker 2 According to the interviews, Chad Huber, car thief suspect, tells cops that Cody Alnutt, an 18-year-old who, according to his father, was hanging out with a bad crowd, wanted to talk to Chad about baby Lisa.

Speaker 2 Chad Huber tells police, presumably based on that conversation with Cody Allnut, that Baby Lisa is dead.

Speaker 2 And while the documents do not reveal anything about how, Chad Huber says several people are involved.

Speaker 2 Dane Greathouse, the same guy who allegedly had the phone, called by the Irwin's stolen cell phone the night Lisa went missing, was paid to move Lisa's deceased body, says Huber, from one grave site to another.

Speaker 15 Who?

Speaker 2 Who paid him? According to Huber, it was convicted criminal Boris Dubinsky. Huber tells police, as reflected in these documents, Dubinsky paid $15,000 for the transfer.
Why would he do that?

Speaker 2 And where would this guy possibly get $15,000?

Speaker 4 What's more, according to a 2012 police interview, Huber tells cops that Matt Shaver, the owner of that house in which Megan Wright was doing drugs on the night Lisa went missing, had pictures, pictures the cops might want to see.

Speaker 2 First, can I just ask you for your reaction to that excerpt?

Speaker 17 Interesting. Very, very interesting.

Speaker 2 What is interesting about it to you?

Speaker 17 The names, the Schaefer name and Cody are names that we've heard.

Speaker 23 What is interesting to me is that it parallels an experience that we had. We spoke with someone who

Speaker 8 Cody had approached her, her story, her words.

Speaker 14 Cody had approached her,

Speaker 23 seemingly really needing to get this off his chest.

Speaker 2 And this name, Dane Greathouse, of course, is very relevant.

Speaker 17 That's who we think that call was intended for. I think it was a signal

Speaker 2 that the baby had been taken.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 2 And so if he really did move the body and was paid $15,000 to move the body from the original burial site.

Speaker 2 I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot of buzz around Dane Greathouse and a few different lines into him. Again, we don't know if they're true.
This is just as reflected in the police report.

Speaker 23 I had someone send me

Speaker 23 a text message once and it said, this is the person you need to talk to. This person has all your answers.

Speaker 6 And it was a photo of Dane Greathouse.

Speaker 17 We've tried to talk to him.

Speaker 28 He's a trip, big time trip.

Speaker 17 He wanted like thousands of dollars for us to talk to him. Oh, great.
I was like, yeah, we're not entertaining this.

Speaker 2 Dane Greathouse did speak with us, telling us he was questioned by police. He told us he knew who Boris Dubinsky was, but did not actually know the man.

Speaker 2 He also said he never moved anything, nor was he paid anything.

Speaker 2 We found him living at home with his mother where he was participating in drug court, an alternative to jail that offers treatment and education.

Speaker 2 Dane followed up with a text that read in part: I'm glad you guys came over and talked. Honestly, I just hope this can bring light to the case, and in time, things get solved.

Speaker 2 Boris Dubinsky also told us he had nothing to do with Baby Lisa's disappearance.

Speaker 2 He said he was once in the same jail with Chad Huber, that he knows what Huber said about him, but that none of it is true.

Speaker 2 Matt Shaver told us there were indeed photos of the riverbank stored on his PlayStation memory card.

Speaker 2 He said police confiscated that card, and when they did, they told him the photos had originated on Cody Alnut's phone. He says he has no idea if they were pictures of a gravesite.

Speaker 2 As these pictures show, there was a search done along the banks of the Missouri River. No body was found.
What Cody Alnutt saw or did not see, we may never know. We were not able to speak with him.

Speaker 2 We did speak with his father, Larry, who told us Cody has schizophrenia. Larry Alnutt is his son's limited guardian and conservator.

Speaker 2 He told us the FBI interviewed Cody once around the time Lisa disappeared and never returned. As for Megan Wright, Megan, have you heard the name Cody Allnutt or Boris Dubinsky?

Speaker 2 Have you heard those names?

Speaker 19 Those don't sound familiar to me.

Speaker 2 But she does remember Matt Shaver, who gave her a place to stay all those years ago.

Speaker 13 Matt was one of the people, him and his wife, owned the house I I was referring to.

Speaker 2 And what was he like?

Speaker 15 He was a carpet layer, best I remember. So he was always very active, hardworking kind of guy,

Speaker 19 trying to support his family.

Speaker 26 When I moved in there, they were trying not to lose their house.

Speaker 26 So I was trying to help them get things cleaned up, kind of get everything, move people out, make it a more family appropriate environment

Speaker 19 for him and his wife and their kids.

Speaker 19 That's why I moved in there and the perk of it was hiding from Jersey. He was not familiar to that house at that time.

Speaker 2 Did the Kansas City police investigate any of these claims or come to a conclusion about this cast of characters? We don't know because they won't say.

Speaker 2 When we called and asked, they again told us they will not comment on a so-called open investigation. And we are not the only ones being ignored by the Kansas City PD.

Speaker 2 According to Jeremy, they have received not a single update on their missing daughter in the last 10 years. I find it appalling that they haven't contacted you in years.

Speaker 2 You don't even get an annual phone call from a police officer saying, we're still looking into it. We haven't forgotten about you.

Speaker 12 Oh, no, no.

Speaker 12 I couldn't even tell you the last time we were contacted by law enforcement of any kind. It was

Speaker 12 maybe year three, maybe.

Speaker 21 Oh, wow. It's been a long time.

Speaker 2 They've moved on.

Speaker 12 For sure.

Speaker 12 I think they realized how big it was. And I think they screwed it up really badly.
And I think they just want to be done with it.

Speaker 2 Author Jackie Heller.

Speaker 8 They dropped the ball.

Speaker 17 They had tunnel vision from the beginning.

Speaker 17 And

Speaker 22 they've dropped the ball. They have let Lisa down.

Speaker 2 Once again, Deborah's aunt, Cindy Lorette.

Speaker 16 I know people who have called the TIPS hotline

Speaker 16 that have reached out to me and

Speaker 16 to get no help. About three months ago, a guy thought he saw Lisa in Las Vegas.
He ended up getting the phone number to the police department.

Speaker 16 He called there and they said, okay, thanks, and just hung up. They did not ask him any questions.
He gave him the information.

Speaker 15 They don't care. They're not looking for Lisa.

Speaker 16 They don't give a shit. They think that she's dead somewhere.
Mom did it. And they're going to, well, they're not even trying to prove that.
I mean, they're just done.

Speaker 18 They're done with it.

Speaker 2 Author Missy Rasmussen.

Speaker 23 If it were me and someone told me that someone told them

Speaker 14 they saw they they know that a baby was murdered i would even three you know three degrees removed triple hearsay yeah i would still want to get that off my chest so i get it but it is really difficult to get any closer than

Speaker 2 say two degrees you know It should be easier for police.

Speaker 2 Police have all sorts of investigatory abilities and powers that we don't have to figure out who was where when what the phone records of that person show and what their actions were it just lacks the the person the right person to come in and be like we're finally going to do what needs to be done for lisa reporter jim spellman who covered the case extensively has a different view every indication that i got is that the Kansas City police and the FBI were conducting a very vigorous and thorough investigation.

Speaker 27 Every time that I would uncover some new element or another reporter would uncover some new thing, the police had already been there generally a couple of weeks before.

Speaker 27 And we saw lots of evidence that they were thoroughly tracking down people's alibis, that they were, you know, searching

Speaker 27 electronically, that they were searching surveillance cameras. That would have been an asset for the family.
And the family ended up treating them like they were the enemy.

Speaker 2 So, to those who think, oh, the Kansas City police botched this, you know, they just, they failed to investigate properly.

Speaker 2 We would have found her if we had a more robust police department on the case, you don't agree with that?

Speaker 27 I don't agree with that. I think that they did a very thorough investigation.
All of the key people that surfaced in the media, that surfaced through my reporting, had been thoroughly investigated.

Speaker 4 John Jerzy Tanko was questioned by the police at the time. He denies any involvement and the case remains open.

Speaker 2 Did the FBI ever tell you, Megan, that you were cleared? I realize you only had that one six-hour meeting. Did they ever, or the Kansas City PD, Megan Wright?

Speaker 22 They told me they'd be in touch if they needed anything else from me, and I haven't heard anything in 12 years.

Speaker 19 Never seen anything where they made a statement publicly bringing up my name saying, Oh, she was cooperative.

Speaker 2 She came in for an interview, and we have ruled her out as a suspect.

Speaker 15 You know, that'd be great to hear.

Speaker 26 But it's never happened.

Speaker 2 as for jeremy irwin and deborah bradley it's been dark narratives 12 years of missing their baby girl and a struggle to stay together

Speaker 6 it's really hard to be there for someone else that you love when you're falling apart yourself

Speaker 15 and we tried to make it work um for a really long time

Speaker 6 And I think it just got to the point where, unfortunately, we fell into this statistic.

Speaker 2 Their relationship came to an end in the summer of 2022 and Deborah moved out of their home on North Lister.

Speaker 14 I had hoped we would beat it, beat the odds, but it's okay because

Speaker 6 now we have the chance to get better on our own and be better for our family and ourselves.

Speaker 12 You know,

Speaker 12 the main concern for me outside, second to Lisa

Speaker 12 has always been the boys and making sure that they they have some semblance of a normal life, even with this going on. And I feel that we have at least succeeded in that.

Speaker 2 And you still, notwithstanding the fact that you're separated from Deborah, you still believe in her.

Speaker 2 It hasn't caused you to doubt her.

Speaker 12 No, no, I mean, not at all. I mean, it doesn't change the fact.
I mean, we're talking about my daughter here and we're talking about.

Speaker 20 the her mother.

Speaker 12 So it's the same thing I've been saying for years. You know, if you're going to tell me that Deborah did it, you better tell me what it is and you better tell me a story associated with it.

Speaker 12 Other than that, I've heard it all and you can't tell me nothing new.

Speaker 9 I think that God put us together because he knew we would be able to

Speaker 9 survive long enough to be there for each other in positive ways.

Speaker 2 And we may not be together now, but

Speaker 15 I still trust him and I will always love him

Speaker 15 because he has my kids.

Speaker 12 You look at the joy that you get from raising two boys and having them go out into the world. And they're awesome young men and they're going to kill it.

Speaker 12 And they have their own life paths, and everything's starting to work out for them. And, but as a man, I was robbed my portion of that with my daughter.

Speaker 12 You know, I hope one day that tomorrow or a year from now or whatever, I hope that Lisa is found and that she comes home and we can start over and at 13 years old or 18 years old or however old she is.

Speaker 12 But it would be nice to start that relationship in which I haven't been able to have this whole time.

Speaker 9 What if all it takes is just the one person to watch what we're doing now?

Speaker 6 And they're like, oh, this kid looks familiar.

Speaker 17 It could happen in so many ways.

Speaker 14 And we've also put our DNA with ancestry.com and 23andMe.

Speaker 24 And I open up my email and I, you know, and I'll see,

Speaker 2 you have another relative.

Speaker 21 And I always click on it, hoping it's her.

Speaker 2 Cindy Lorette. I've tried to convince myself that she's no longer here and to move on, but I can't.

Speaker 18 I'm going with my gut and my heart.

Speaker 22 She's out there somewhere.

Speaker 16 She's a beautiful little girl.

Speaker 18 And we're going to find her. This is for Lisa.

Speaker 22 We need to find what happened to Lisa.

Speaker 18 Where in the hell is she?

Speaker 18 Dead or alive, we need to find out what happened. There, I said it.

Speaker 2 Like, how do you make sense of why this happened?

Speaker 12 There's a lot of tough questions, and

Speaker 12 the answer is free will. And

Speaker 12 evil men will do evil things.

Speaker 2 What's your best hope? of where she's been these past 12 years

Speaker 15 my best hope is that she's safe and she's with people that love her and care for her and feed her well and treat her well and she's able to go to the doctor and

Speaker 2 maybe she's able to go to school somewhere and she just has no idea that she's actually someone else's child that's what i'm hoping that she's totally ignorant to it and living a completely normal life that's what i really hope for

Speaker 2 Do you ever wonder whether it would be easier if you knew, you know, one way or the other, what had happened, if just even if the outcome were bad, you know, that you had a confirmation that she had passed, would that somehow be easier?

Speaker 12 Well, I think if that's my two options, if I were to know that something bad happened or to never know, then I'll just stay never knowing, I guess.

Speaker 2 Jeremy would rather never know, and he and Deborah didn't make it. Bill Stanton spent a lot of time with Deborah and Jeremy.
He joined me along with our other go-to crime expert, Phil Houston.

Speaker 25 You know, you could feel the bond, and I saw it, and I'm sure you saw it between the two of them. I mean, it's a nightmare.
And statistically, they should have been divorced within months,

Speaker 25 but their faith. in Lisa and themselves kept them together for years.

Speaker 25 You know, I know people in a lot higher tax brackets than them, you know, a lot higher education than them that, you know, would have crumbled.

Speaker 2 It says he never doubted her. He never doubted her.

Speaker 25 It's a sad love story.

Speaker 2 But when you watch her today,

Speaker 2 what jumped out at you?

Speaker 25 That this woman has evolved as a person, how she remains resolute. And I wanted her to be guilty more than anyone because statistically she was.
I wanted to wrap it up and get the heck home.

Speaker 25 You know, they had no reason to accept me in their home. I told them as soon as I got there, I'm not here for you.
Meaning that if it's you, I'm coming for you. And I said that to them.

Speaker 25 And they looked me square in the eye, help find our baby.

Speaker 2 What did you make of the fact that in my interview with Deborah, she was saying, this did jump out at me.

Speaker 2 She was saying things like, there's an example of a mother who found her daughter after 16 years. There's an example of a father who found his kid after X years.
I went to 23andMe and I gave my DNA.

Speaker 2 I went to ancestry.com and I gave my DNA there just in case, you know, she finds it.

Speaker 2 I realize even somebody who had done something would be smart enough to say, present tense, present tense, present tense. So I, that's okay.
I'll check that to the side.

Speaker 2 But doing things like that, I believe her that she did searches for a child who came back. Why would you do that if you knew your child was no longer?

Speaker 2 No, that's what, that's what gets her through the day. What did you make of that stuff, Phil?

Speaker 28 I believe that she has,

Speaker 28 but it's, it's also her undoing, I believe, because I spoke to her about a year and a half ago.

Speaker 2 And when I hung up,

Speaker 28 I thought, my goodness, the frustration that she's feeling is going to eat her alive.

Speaker 28 And,

Speaker 28 you know,

Speaker 28 I don't want to trivialize it in this comparison, but, you know, think for a moment, you're at your house and all of a sudden you're looking for your car keys and you can't find them.

Speaker 28 and how quickly you become frustrated and you look and you start you know you hollering at people and help me find my keys and whatever. Think if that frustration went on for 12 years.

Speaker 28 How big would that build that you're looking for this thing that you can't find?

Speaker 2 That leads me back to these police reports that you guys have seen, these interview reports that we managed to get our hands on.

Speaker 2 And they talk about how these alleged petty criminals around this case allegedly, again, this very much could be crooks trying to lower their sentences and give police fake little gold nuggets.

Speaker 2 But they talk about having seen pictures of a grave site, pictures of a mound of dirt. Somebody allegedly brought the baby in a black garbage bag and buried it.
Like,

Speaker 2 there's some of that out there. I mean, it's possible that she did the same thing, that that's that's all made up, but that she did actually bring the baby out there and that the baby was buried.

Speaker 2 And this same Keystone cop force just didn't find it.

Speaker 28 See, the first thing that comes to my mind, Megan,

Speaker 28 is that

Speaker 28 if I've committed a crime as heinous as this particular crime, I find it hard to believe I'd be running around telling people that

Speaker 28 we've done this. and so forth.
And

Speaker 28 while one person might do it, I think if it were a group effort, that one person would be in hot water pretty quickly with the rest of the team, so to speak.

Speaker 28 You know, even if they were under the influence of drugs, the next morning, they would probably be saying to themselves, we need to put a, you know, put a lid on this.

Speaker 2 The greatest thing I think Deborah's got in her favor, you tell me if I'm wrong, Bill, is Phil Houston.

Speaker 25 And for that, nothing to add.

Speaker 6 Right? Absolutely.

Speaker 2 I just can't get past the fact that the human lie detector, CIA 25 years, breaking terrorists, breaking double agents, seeing the deception where no one else could, that that guy got fooled by Deborah Bradley.

Speaker 2 I don't believe it.

Speaker 28 Thank you for the kind words, Megan.

Speaker 28 Believe me, like you, this case has haunted me, and I pray often that I'm right and that she's right, that

Speaker 28 Lisa's out there somewhere.

Speaker 4 Coming up in our next episode, Jersey, John Tanko, the man everyone wants to know about.

Speaker 2 We found him.

Speaker 4 And wait until you hear what he told me. We'll see you tomorrow for the final episode.
Don't miss that.

Speaker 4 But first, if you're watching right now, please take a look at this picture of Lisa as she might look now. If you're listening, you can see the photo on YouTube or just go to MeganKelly.com.

Speaker 4 If you see her or think you might have any information that can help find her, please write to me. The address is megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at megankelly.com.

Speaker 4 You can also pass along tips on the Baby Lisa story to the Kansas City Police Department or encourage them to get active on this case. That would be very helpful.

Speaker 4 Reach out at kcrimestoppers.com, kcrimestoppers.com, or call them at 816-474-TIPS, T-I-P-S, that's 816-474-8477.

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