Baby Goes Missing, Mother Questioned - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1022

I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show and our special series, Megan Kelly Investigates.
This is on the disappearance of baby Lisa. Over the next five days, we will bring you deep into a story that captivated and horrified America, including yours truly.
It has stuck with me since I first covered it at Fox News. Thirteen years later, it is a case that has never been solved.
It is about the mystery of baby Lisa Irwin, a beautiful, healthy baby girl who vanished in the middle of the night, never to be found, right out of her crib. I want to start with why we're bringing you this, all right? As you're going to see throughout this episode and the four that come after it, I covered my story this self, as I mentioned, as it happened back in 2011 and then in the many years thereafter.
I remember at the time I first got sent to Kansas City, Missouri, I had my own baby girl in a crib at home and just couldn't fathom what it would be like to go in to check on her in the middle of the night or go get her in the morning and see an empty crib. Speaking to her parents at the time was a before and after moment for me.
It was shocking for the reasons that you will hear in this series. And the case has never been solved.
This is not a series where at the end, we're going to say this person was arrested, but you are going to have some theories. So a couple of years ago, I began reporting this story anew.
I decided since we launched the Megyn Kelly show to take this on with my own resources and to devote countless hours to figuring out what happened to this baby with the help of some producers and very talented investigators. The investigative team you will know from this show, Bill Stanton, former NYPD, and Phil Houston, former CIA, known as the human lie detector, that will be put to the test, that moniker, in later episodes of this series.
But I started interviewing all the key players again, and I got to some critical new ones, some of whom have never before been interviewed by anybody other than law enforcement in connection with this case. We tried and may have gotten to the truth of what happened here.
We uncovered quite a bit. See for yourselves.
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And on On October 4th, 2011, about to become the center of the biggest crime story in America. This one may be better.
Please bring her home. Ten-month-old baby Lisa Irwin disappeared in the middle of the night.
Father Jeremy came home from his night shift at 3.45 a.m. and found the lights were on.
A window was open, the screen pushed in, the front door unlocked, and his baby girl was not in her crib. Must be a reasonable explanation, he thought.
His first instinct? Don't panic. That's the last thing you expect is that one of your kids is going to be missing.
So initially when she's not in the crib, it's like, okay, well, she's in bed with Deborah. She's in bed with one of the kids is going to be missing.
So initially, when she's not in the crib, it's like,

OK, well, she's in bed with Deborah.

She's in bed with one of the brothers.

She's maybe fallen out of bed and she's asleep under the crib.

He woke up the baby's mother, his partner, Deborah Bradley, out of a sound sleep.

She appeared to have no idea why baby Lisa was not in her crib.

Jeremy ran next door to see if somehow the neighbor had the baby. Then he called 911.
Jeremy and Debra immediately went public, begging for help. No questions asked.
Just drop her off with somebody at a hospital, a church, the fire department, the police station, anywhere. Just please bring her home.
How do you think about it today? Jeremy Irwin. It's still pretty similar to the way it has been.
It's a lot of frustration and some anger and mostly just feeling like you're missing a huge, giant chunk of your life.

Deborah Bradley was just 25 then. She's 38 now.

Your case is so unique because it became a huge national news story.

And you now have old interviews of yourself and press conferences.

You know, when you look back on that, what do you think? I think I can't believe I survived. And though so much time has passed, what happened to Lisa that night remains a mystery.
News of Lisa's disappearance traveled fast. Search crews combed the neighborhood, police dogs were deployed, and the media descended on North Lister Avenue.
Showing up here to the house with metal detectors homing the ground, going through the yard. A classic crescent-shaped suburban street just north of the Missouri River.
Debra's aunt, Cindy Lorette, still chokes up remembering that terrible day back in 2011. It was crazy.
Unlike anything I've ever seen before or I've seen thus. I mean, every which way you look, there was police officers, there was cars, there was people.
I remember the CNN ban. I remember HLN ban.
I mean, you couldn't get down the streets. There was literally reporters climbing in trees trying to get snapshots of us.
What were your first impressions of the story on the scene? Jim Spellman was there from the start reporting the story for CNN and its sister channel, Headline News. This was a neighborhood not unlike where I grew up, but kind of a working class-ish neighborhood.
well-kept homes, but not the kind of families that would be prepared to deal with the onslaught of media, police, lawyers, and everything else that would be involved in something like this. It's also a neighborhood that was shocked because, you know, this was a neighborhood full of kids and families, and one of their own was dealing with, I think, every parent's nightmare.
In those critical early hours and days, Kansas City police, the FBI, the ATF, and a group of local volunteers searched the area. They did not find Lisa or any hard evidence.
Within a week, a timeline of the day began to emerge. 2.30 p.m.
Debra's dad comes by with her brother, Philip Nutz. 4.45 p.m., Debra and Philip go by baby formula and boxed wine.
They're seen on store security video. Around 5 o'clock p.m., next-door neighbor Samantha Brando drops by.
5.15 p.m., Jeremy, an electrician, gets a call from his boss and soon leaves to work at a Starbucks, unaware of the chaos and tragedy about to unfold just hours later. 6 p.m., Debra makes dinner for Samantha, Sam's daughter, as well as Lisa and her two half-brothers, five-year-old Michael and seven-year-old Blake.
6.30 p.m., Debra puts Lisa to bed. By 7 p.m., Samantha's daughter and Debra's boys are inside playing.
Baby Lisa is supposed to be in her crib asleep. Both moms sit on the front steps smoking, talking, and drinking.
Between 8 and 10 p.m., Shane Beakley, a 33-year-old landscaper who was the grandson of a neighbor, stops by the stoop for a visit. Sometime around 10.30 to 11 p.m., Debra said, she checked on baby Lisa, then went down the hall and got in bed with the two boys.
Before bed, Debra leaves three cell phones on the kitchen counter, two with restricted use because of non-payment. It is believed only one worked normally.
They all end up missing. 10.30 p.m.
Samantha Brando is back home. She reportedly later said that she noticed the lights were turned off at Deborah and Jeremy's house.
Some leads quickly emerged with possible sightings of a kidnapper. The next morning, seven-year-old Blake tells police he heard noises during the night.
Also the next morning, the Parscals, who lived around the corner, told police what they had seen. Husband Onesto was leaving for his overnight shift, and wife Lisa was awake and inside.
Once again, reporter Jim Spellman. He thinks this is weird enough that he phones her in the house from the car and says, hey, come and take a look at this.
And she sees this man walking up the street holding a baby, not wearing clothes. And having been in the window where she could see this happening and having been standing where his car was parked, it would not be a problem to view this even though it's past midnight.
There were plenty of streetlights. So show me exactly what you did.
You looked out this window, tell me where your husband was and tell me what you saw. Nobody's mind immediately goes to, oh, somebody's kidnapping this baby.
That's what she told me. She said, my mind did not immediately think kidnapping.
But the first thing in the morning when she saw this commotion going on was she told the police about this. What time of night did she say she saw the man with the baby? I'll tell you.
And she had it exactly because she showed me the phone records from her husband calling her. 12.15.
12.15 a.m. Stranger abductions put children in the most dire situation.

And so we know time is ticking.

Callahan Walsh of the Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Those early hours are the most critical because within the first two hours, there's a 70% chance you'll recover the child deceased and about a 90% chance after 24 hours.
In a case like this where we don't know exactly who took baby Erwin and

it's a possibility that it's a stranger abduction, we know times of the essence. Was Lisa the baby in the man's arms? More suspicious things happen in those early hours.
2.30 a.m. There's a dumpster fire in a parking lot not too far from the Parscale's house.
Could this be related?

At 2.45 a.m., a nearby BP gas station surveillance camera shows a man in a light T-shirt emerging from the woods that bordered the neighborhood. It's too dark and grainy to see if he's carrying anything.
And then, as I reported for Fox News at the time, Debra's first account of her timeline gets a serious revision. Turns out she was drinking more than she originally claimed.
And she's no longer sure about when she last saw her baby girl. When you went in at 1030 after the neighbor left, what did you do? Probably went right to my room.
Why do you say probably? Because sometimes I check on her.

Well, most of the time I check on her.

And then the boys.

So I'm assuming that I went and checked on her too.

But I don't know.

You don't remember?

No.

Let's talk about the wine.

How much did you consume that day?

I had several.

Several glasses of wine.

When you say several, more than three?

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with her.

More than five?

Probably.

More than ten?

No.

Was it just wine or was there other alcohol?

Yeah, just wine.

Lisa was in bed and the boys were laying down watching a movie with the neighbor's daughter. Were you drunk? Yeah.
So the last time Debra is sure she saw Lisa was at 6.30 p.m. before she started drinking.
Could something have happened accidentally? Maybe Lisa fell or was dropped or Debra unknowingly rolled over on her while they slept. Or worse, did she deliberately kill her own child? At the very least, Deborah is drunk and unreliable.
It was a tough interview. I went pretty hard on you.
Very difficult. You fessed up.
You said, I had a lot of drinks that night, someplace between 6 and 10, and I think I blacked out. Now, a lot of people wouldn't have admitted that.
A lot of people would not have sat down with the press and said that at all. They would have been worried that it would have made them look some certain way.
I didn't care how I looked. I mean, yes, Debbie drank.
Deborah's aunt, Cindy Lorette. Debbie probably still drinks.
It doesn't fucking matter. It does not matter.
Sorry I said that. We all do.
And if you're the perfect parent, then good for you. Because this could happen to anybody.
You don't plan on things like this to happen. You don't plan on turning the TV on and seeing one of your relatives missing, let alone a 10-month-old baby.
The door wasn't locked, right? Reporter Jim Spellman. The door was not locked, but keep in mind that by her own admission, Debra Bradley was drinking that night.
I'm not sure that she could be trusted to confidently say whether she locked the door or not. Obviously, they are our main focus.
I'm not calling them suspects. Knowing her timeline was problematic and wanting to prove to police she had nothing to hide, Deborah volunteered to take a polygraph.
And then she took police remarks to mean she had failed it. We were done and I was like, OK, so, you know, what happens now? And he goes, it gets real close to me and he goes, I think that you're a very bad mother.
And I just broke down. And I said that it's not possible that I failed.
And he just kept saying, I think you're a bad mother. You need to tell us what you did.
And I just kind of fell apart. Not going to lie, my nerves, I actually wet myself because I couldn't believe what he was saying to me.
Exhausted and emotional, Debra and Jeremy decide they have shared everything they can think of to help the investigation and need a break. But Kansas City police publicly criticized the couple for not continuing to talk to them.
The news coverage is wall to wall. Just a couple hours ago at a news conference held by Kansas City police and investigators in the case.
They've always been free. They've been cooperative up to this point.
But early this evening, they decided to stop cooperating with detectives. Kansas City attorney Sean O'Brien.
And so the public impression was these parents had something to hide. And that came through on the news coverage.
All along, police said Lisa's parents, Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, cooperated with police until Thursday night. Her parents are no longer cooperating with police.
I don't get it because as a parent myself, if my child was missing, I would give anything I have. Despite the sighting of the man with the baby, one week into the case, police seem to have only one suspect, her mother.
ABC News legal correspondent Dan Abrams asked Jeremy the question on everyone's mind. Could Debra have done something accidentally? No.
Maybe she tried to cover it up after. No.
The first time I even thought that was when the police had started asking us about it. So just from the statistics standpoint, it didn't surprise me that law enforcement was really going after Deborah and also Jeremy.
That's Marissa Randazzo, the former chief research psychologist at the U.S. Secret Service.
She would soon be tapped to work on this case. From the criminal psychologist side of me, I wondered what involvement she or her husband might have had.
And so did I. And so did lots of people.
But when Kansas City attorney Sean O'Brien started working with Deborah and Jeremy, he quickly realized no one was getting the whole story. Because the police kept saying the parents aren't cooperating, the parents aren't cooperating.
It was like the mantra they were putting out on television. And it wasn't until after I got into the case, I realized that was totally not true.
You know, they had spent 40 hours in questioning with the police before I was brought into the case. These were people who were trying to help the police find their baby.
So why were the police saying that? Were they just making that up? I think they didn't have a better suspect. Interrogation is not investigation.
It's a strategy to get a suspect to make an incriminating statement, period. That's all it is.
And so it's a really dangerous position for them to be in. The other thing that I found out later had been done was that they pulled a strategy on them that's called the prisoner's dilemma.
And what you do when you have two suspects in a case is you tell each of them that the other one is implicating them. And so they better start talking and get out ahead of it, or they're going to be the one left holding the bag.
And so they did that with Jeremy and Deborah. They had each done like a 10-hour videotaped interview, and they took a little snippet out of each one.
Jeremy Irwin. The cop comes in and he's like, hey, I want you to see something.
So he sets his laptop down in front of me and it's a video of Deborah. It is Deborah's interrogation video from like day two and three.
And he scrolls and he scrolls and he scrolls and he scrolls and scrolls and he scrolls. Finally finds whatever he's looking for, swings the laptop back around, plays me a 12 second clip of Deborah clearly frustrated, crying.
And she says, well, I don't know. I guess maybe he did it or something to that effect.
He did what? I could have stubbed my toe on the door. I could have spilt the cup of coffee.
He did what? Like you literally showed me nothing. That was just one of the little things that they'll do to you while you're in there.
And the polygraph? According to one of Debra's attorneys, Debra had, in fact, passed it. Obviously, their whole thing was it was Debra.
Debra did it, Debra did it. So I always kept asking them, Debra did what? Go ahead, finish your sentence.
And there was no sentence to be finished. Psychologist Marissa Randazzo says that's confirmation bias.
Essentially, what confirmation bias is that once you develop a theory, it's human nature to seek out information that confirms that theory and disregard information that would undercut that theory. It appeared that they were not pursuing alternate possibilities with as many resources or energy as they were their theory that it was Deborah and or Jeremy.
Investigators are quickly closing in on the baby's mother, Deborah. Jeremy's sister, Ashley Irwin, thought the writing was on the wall and said so in an interview with ABC News.
Captain Steve Young of the Kansas City Police Department.

Even so, the pressure on Deborah was intense. Oh, she was just a mess.
Cindy Lorette remembers the stress of it. She was staying with the family to help out.
She just didn't know which way was up or down her, and she would just cry, and she would... nestle her head under my arm or next to me.

Nobody knew what to do.

And now we can introduce you to one of the most intriguing players in this whole story.

Christy Schiller is a Houston horse breeder, socialite,

one-time Playboy model, and a broadcaster. What was the first you heard about the Lisa Irwin case? So I got a call from my stepson and he said, hurry and turn on Fox News and you were reporting.
And he said that there's a baby that's been kidnapped in Kansas City. Then Christy got a call from a family friend, Debra's cousin, Mike Lorette.
And he called me and he said, I'm here in Kansas City. I'm trying to protect my cousin and her husband.
He said, there's news people shoving cameras to the windows. I'd like to thank all the people of Kansas City, the local national media, for the continued support and coverage to keep baby Lisa's picture out there.
He said, I'm just scared. He said, I just don't know what to do.
He said, I'm trained for DEFCON 4, and I just don't feel like anybody's coming here to help us. And I said, help is on the way.
Christy had her own theories. She had spent that summer glued to the trial of Casey Anthony, a mother accused of murdering her three-year-old daughter.
I thought for sure that, you know, she was going to go down. And when the verdict came in...
We, the jury, find the defendant not guilty. I just stood there frozen.
I couldn't believe it. And I turned around to somebody who was a complete stranger, and I said, mark my word, the next parent that does not trim their child's nails right, they're going to serve hard times.
Sure that Deborah was caught in this backlash, Christy swung into action, tapping into the brain trust of police and legal professionals that she met through her charity, Canines for Cops, created in tribute to a police dog killed in the line of duty. She called Bill Stanton, a former New York City police officer, private investigator, and TV commentator who was on her canine board.
Bill assembled a team that included Phil Houston, CIA veteran of 25 years. Phil created the deception detection method still being used by the CIA, the FBI, the Secret Service, and law enforcement agencies around the nation.
He is known as the human lie detector. Former Secret Service psychologist Marissa Randazzo was also part of the team.
First order of business, they needed to determine what, if any, involvement Debra may have had. By this point, the baby's father, Jeremy, had essentially been ruled out because there's security video of him working on an electrical project at Starbucks through most of the night baby Lisa went missing.
Christy's team began to plan their own videotaped interviews with the parents. Marissa worked with Phil on the questions for Deborah and Jeremy.
I helped really to talk through with Phil around what angle, what to think about when talking with someone who may be responsible for the disappearance, or we were really concerned about possibly the death of baby Lisa. So we know that the parents, especially the mother, was under suspicion by law enforcement.
And to figure out kind of what the different angles were, why parents, especially mothers, the sort of top motivations of why they do kill their children, and to use those angles and perspectives to help formulate the questions that Phil would be asking them. Now there was a plane waiting, thanks to Christy Schiller.
Bill and Phil headed to Kansas City. Once in the Kansas City area, in a rented house at a secret location away from the throngs of media, Phil and an associate interviewed Debra.
Phil Houston had seen their press conferences and how they answered questions. Like so many of us, he already had his suspicions about the couple.
They've been asked, did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? And so you have to craft an approach to the questioning that cuts through that, that minimizes all of the histronics that have led up to this meeting, if you will.

And I was convinced that they were guilty until we asked that first question. We have it on tape, that moment where you got to ask your first question of Deborah.

Let's watch it.

Debbie, I think the first question that I need to ask you this morning, okay,

is what involvement did you have in the disappearance of Lisa?

None.

The only thing I did wrong was drink that night

and possibly not be alert, not here.

I'm sorry.

What did you glean from that? What are we seeing there?

First of all, if you noticed, I didn't ask her, did you do it?

I upped the ante by asking her a presumptive question.

I'm presuming that it's quite possible, maybe even

probable, that you did this, that you were involved. What involvement did you have? And her response to that was immediately, without hesitation, none.
But then she throws a curveball at us she says the only the only thing I did wrong. So she's confessing.
She's saying, look, this is what I, this is the only thing I did wrong. Phil's reaction coming out of this was, no matter the angle that we tried, no matter the approach of the question, she was answering them truthfully and not showing deception.
In a twist even he didn't see coming, Phil determined Deborah is telling the truth, that she had nothing to do with her daughter's disappearance. Well, I mean, I, like you, flew out there thinking they did it.
It's always the parents. When the wife gets killed, it's always the husband.
We all know this. And I remember being flabbergasted.
I just couldn't believe, like, what do you mean? Challenged all my own biases, but I think led to better reporting on my part in covering the case, right? Just check your bias. You could be wrong.
Have some humility. There are people smarter than you are at detecting deception who say she's not lying and neither is Jeremy.

Armed with this knowledge, Christy Schiller anonymously offers a $100,000 reward for information leading to the return of baby Lisa. Bill Stanton made the announcement.
There's going to be a $100,000 reward put up for the safe return and or conviction of personal persons involved in this horrible crime. Until now, no one knew it was Christy who offered the reward, a secret she managed to keep even from her own husband.
Is it true he once said to you, hey, did you hear they posted a reward for the baby? And he said, tell me it wasn't you. And he said, what were you thinking? And I said, we don't need our name on the side of a building.
I want to know that this mother and father are being reunited and the two little boys with their siblings. Announcing the $100,000 reward was just one way Stanton kept the baby Lisa story in the news.
But Bill had a problem. After the press conference and I said an anonymous benefactor, this nasty rumor of it was either NBC or ABC, and they were paying behind the scenes to get all the exclusives and attention.
And that's when he called me. No one believes the anonymous benefactor.
I need for you to verify it to your comfort level, and we'll go from there. And I was thinking, sure, yes, I'm interested in this story at any level.
But of course, what I would ultimately like is to talk to the parents. And that's where it landed.
And, you know, explosive details came out that day. You know, it had its highs and lows for Debra because that's when the public learned she had between six and ten drinks.
Do you have a drinking problem? No, I don't think so. Some folks are going to have an issue with you.
Oh you oh I'm sure they are more than five drinks while you're looking after a little baby and two little boys she was sleeping I wanted to ask so why did you choose to share that with me because it has nothing to do with Lisa's abduction and I want to be honest about everything so that people will look for her because I feel like if they they're like, oh, she's being honest about that, she's got to be telling the truth about other stuff. And any publicity for Lisa's good, whether people like what I say or not.
That's true. The wall-to-wall media coverage continued.
They are still searching urgently for the child, although they do say that as every hour passes, this case gets harder to solve. And at this point, police freely admit they have no suspects and no leads.
That was always one of the biggest mysteries about this case. Like, what kind of criminal, whether it's, you know, a parent, a family member, or an intruder, like, is so good that they don't leave behind a fingerprint, DNA, or any other really meaningful clue.
Because no matter who did this, they did escape, you know, without a trace. Reporter Jim Spellman.
So I think there's two possible answers to that. The first is, if it's somebody who you expect to have in the house, in any house in a crime scene, if you expect to find their DNA and their fingerprints, then that evidence is of little help to investigators.
But I think what you're asking is really an incredible question, because as you try to run through, you know, potential scenarios in your head, guessing more than anything, they just so many of them lead to dead ends. Is there some way that Deborah Bradley or her husband, Jeremy, somehow did this themselves and were able to pull this off in a short matter of hours? It seems incredibly unlikely, right? But then could some stranger somehow know that this was a house that had a baby in it where the husband was working a very rare night shift where the, you know, the mom was perhaps not at her best ever having, you know, done some serious drinking that night.
And then that's the night you stealthily get in and out of the house, making it through neighbors and everything else. That seems equally as unlikely.
There's so much we don't know about the evidence because Kansas City PD won't talk to us. They say that's because this is still an open investigation.
We have our doubts about how much investigating is really going on, and for that matter, about how they handled this case. Now I'm joined by Phil Houston and Bill Stanton.
They will be

my partners in crime on this, my go-to criminal experts as we take a hard look at the facts of this case. Looking back now, 12 years later, is there's no Nest cameras in every door.
There's no even low-grade security cameras, Even the, like, every gas station now has a good camera that will show you most of what happened there. In today's day and age, they'd be able to zero right in on whoever that was that emerged.
And what a difference a decade makes. And that's why 12 years later, we're still talking about it, trying to solve it, because it's every person's, every parent's worst nightmare.
Someone coming into your home in the middle of the night and taking the most precious thing that you'll ever have in your life, your child. The police really do seem to be guilty of some tunnel vision here.
I mean, what we're learning already is that they're really interested, Phil, in Deborah and Jeremy. And in the opening hours of an investigation, one can completely understand that.
Absolutely. And they both look guilty as sin, if you look at it just from a global perspective.
And then you have Deborah admitting to excessive drinking, you know, to the point of possibly blacking out. And you have cops saying that the parents stopped cooperating, which, you know, that leads everybody to be like, oh, that's it, they're guilty.
She was done being interrogated over and over and over and over by police she definitely accurately believed had a foregone conclusion about her. And the other part to that too is, is that Deborah is no shrinking violet.
I mean, she's not afraid, you know, when you reach a certain point to really let people know what she's thinking about, how they're behaving towards her. And I don't know this, I'm speculating, but that she probably became fairly angry and that anger could have been misinterpreted in the interrogations.
Plus just the odds, the overwhelming odds, you know, are she did it. That's the biggest obstacle to ruling her out.
But let's spend a moment ruling her in. How does that look? What evidence does point to Deborah? OK, it's a tough one.
So let's let's go with this hypothesis. So was it intentional or unintentional? If it was intentional, then we're going to say she didn't drink as much.
She was tossing the alcohol, making it seem like she was drunk to the friend, right? Doing everything she normally does. She knows her husband is working at least until 3, 4 a.m.
And she just doesn't want the burden of the child anymore. Right? So she acts like she's drunk.
She puts the kids in bed with her. The kids fall asleep.
Then she wakes up, takes her child and either sells the baby or, you know, makes the child go away. Right.
That would be one theory. On that theory, she would also have to get out of the house and dispose of the remains and then get back into the bed before Jeremy gets home and sees her at what he said was sleeping.
And he believed and, you know, you're the spouse. You can tell when your spouse is legit asleep and whether or not.
But keep going. The accident theory is far harder for me to go over because, listen, we've all been in that half buzz state, you know, where you go to bed drunk and then you wake up half sober.
How do you negotiate that? She wakes up. She finds that she smothered her baby.
Right now. I have to get rid of it because I can't face reality.
How does she do that within walking distance and have the presence of mind? Oh, let me take the phones. Let me not be seen.
And if my kids wake up, there are so many variables to that theory. It's very hard for me to pursue that one.
Far easier for me to go further down the road with she sold the child, which I do not believe. You know, when every new mother knows, they know you don't take your baby in your bed with you.
Like, it's very dangerous. You can smother your baby inadvertently.
But some do it anyway. I mean, some don't know.
And then some do know, but they take the risk anyway because they're exhausted and the child's crying a lot. And they just make a mistake.
They fall asleep there. And one thing leads to one other terrible thing.
But the fact that she had her two boys in the bed with her, actually, right, Bill? I mean, that just works against that theory. Absolutely.
Those boys were interviewed and they were old enough to know if their baby sister was in the bed with them, right? There were just so many different ways that if she did it, she would have gotten caught again. These are simple people.
And I don't mean that in a detrimental sense. They're not master criminals.
You know, if someone planned this out, they wouldn't be able to do it. Just too many variables.
You know, it was, in my opinion, again, the perfect storm of, you know, Jeremy being away or being over served the boys being in the bed, you know, for her to roll over on a baby and then get rid of the child, you know, could have done it, but she would have got caught real quick. And then again, just think about the guilt.
This isn't someone that's, you know, a sociopath, serial killer that could kill a person and, you know, once a week and then go out in life to stay married with your husband, to look at your children in the eyes, to, you know, the pain that she went through, you know, behind the scenes that we've all saw just doesn't play out to me. No, she's not a sociopath.
And she continues to talk to us, even though, you know, you guys know, I've had many a very tough segment on Deborah on my various shows. I just feel like the actual murderer would not keep putting themselves in this harm's way.
Can we talk about the next door neighbor, Samantha Brando, for a minute? Because while we have been unable to reach her, you guys did talk to her. You also put her through the Phil Houston treatment to find out whether it was true, what, that she was sitting with Debra, that they were drinking together, that things went down the way Debra said they did? And most importantly, she validated the level of intoxication.
She said, I hate to say this about Debra, but I don't know if I've ever seen her. And I'm paraphrasing here, but I don't know if I've ever seen her that intoxicated before.
There was more wine there than Debra told us originally. Well, that could explain why Deborah didn't hear an intruder, for sure.

Well, to your point, Megan, when Jeremy came home, no one heard him come in.

He was walking around the house.

He shut the window.

He turned out the lights.

He went into the bedrooms.

Didn't wake them up for him either.

Mm-hmm.

That's true.

So why didn't anyone ever come forward if somebody stole this baby and did something with her? There's not one person who needed $100,000 enough to come forward and quietly say, I know what happened to her. The reason why I think no one has claimed the reward, because it was a sole actor who committed this crime.

And no. The reason why I think no one has claimed the reward, because it was a sole actor who committed this crime and no one else knows about it.
Because to your point, Megan, that's one hundred thousand dollars and they could do right and they could have done it at that time.

Now, was the baby sold or something more nefarious? That would explain it if it were a sole actor who then kept his mouth shut. But that's one of the troubling things about this whole thing.
If it was anybody who blabbed or if it were a group, somebody would have turned on somebody else. And that just hasn't happened.
So as it stands at this point, all eyes are on Debra. Coming up in our next episode, police continue to bear down on Debra.
If she didn't do it, who did? What else was going on in the neighborhood that night? But first, if you're watching right now, please take a look at this picture of Lisa as she might look now. If you're listening, you can see the photo on YouTube or just go to megankelly.com.
If you see her or think you might have any information that can help find her, please write to me. The address is megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at megankelly.com.
You can also pass along tips on the baby Lisa story to the Kansas City Police

Department or encourage them to get active on this case. That would be very helpful.
Reach out at

kccrimestoppers.com, kccrimestoppers.com, or call them at 816-474-TIPS, T-I-P-S.

That's 816-474-8477.

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