Tucker Carlson on Michelle Obama, Newsom and AOC, and Fentanyl Crisis in America, with Billy Baldwin and Dr. Robert Marbut | Ep. 1060

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Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
Today, officially marking President Trump's 100th day in office. What a whirlwind.
The White House is branding it 100 days of promises made, promises kept, with the president's biggest accomplishments centered on immigration and the border. And how? Also, Michelle Obama is once again out there whining about what a victim she is.
This time, she's trying to suggest that her daughters could be arrested in the middle of the night and deported along with some random illegals. At least that's how I read her comments.
That seems like as good a place as any to kick off the show as we're joined today by Tucker Carlson. Forget government debt.
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Great to see you, Tucker. How are you? You're making me laugh, Megan.
I hadn't read that. I'm grateful to be here.
Michelle Obama, you go to Princeton for free, and you're just— By the way, I can't imagine that. I'm so, I'm grateful to be here.
And Michelle Obama, you go to Princeton for free and you're just,

by the way, I can't imagine that she qualified on the merits to go to Princeton,

but you have everything handed to you for free.

And,

and you're just enraged at the country.

There's,

there's a deep lesson here,

actually.

Yes.

And it's just,

let me play the soundbite.

Cause it's,

it's even worse than you're imagining.

Like,

yeah,

she went on this guy,

Jay Shetty's podcast.

And he asked her something about her greatest fear as of

I'll let you know, what's happening to immigrants? You know, so it's it's not the fear for myself anymore. I drive around in a four car motorcade with a police escort.
I'm Michelle Obama. I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognizable.
So my fears are for what I know is happening out there in streets all over the city. And now that we have leadership that is sort of indiscriminately determining who belongs and who doesn't, And we know that those decisions aren't being made with courts and with due process and, you know, that it's being made like this cop that pulled my brother over when he was 12.
You don't look like somebody that belongs. You know, I can determine just by looking at you that you're, you know, you're a good person or you're not a good person.
And knowing that there's so much bias and so much racism and so much ignorance that fuels those kinds of choices, I worry for people of color all over this country. And I don't know that we will have the advocates to protect everybody.
And that makes me, that frightens me. It keeps me up at night.
How do you feel comfortable

going to work, going to school when you know that there could be people out here judging you and

who could upend your life in a second? That, who I worry for right now. There's so much in there, Tucker.
I'll let you take a swing at it first. My first response is it feels so antique.
It feels so 2017. It's like literally nobody cares.
Nobody cares at all. All of those talking points, people of color under attack.
No, they're not. They're coming here by the millions because this is the safest country for everybody, no matter what your color is or it was in any case.
so like that's just so old-fashioned I mean it's really like you expect her to say let me fax you

my thoughts on this because it's just like she's so out of it. The second thing is that like we always beat up on, you know, rich white ladies because they're the most disruptive force in America.
But that's unfair. It's not it's not about color.
It's there's something about the people with the most in our country that's really poisonous. They're the unhappiest or the most restless.
They're the most self-involved. They're the least generous.
They're the most annoying. And it's not just a gender thing.
It's men, too. But there's something about America at this moment where the unhappiest people are also the most privileged.
And I think it does tell you something deep about accumulating money or worshiping money. It doesn't fill the empty space at all it doesn't you know larry fink is a miserable person in real life despite having billions of dollars and of course you know personally and i do too a lot of deeply unhappy billionaires way more unhappy than the guy fixing your air conditioning so there is like it's it's it's a theological principle that i think is worth saying out loud.
Worshipping money, worshipping power, organizing your life so you get more of both does not give you peace or happiness. In fact, it seems to produce the opposite.
People like Michelle Obama, who's drowning in Lake Me. I mean, Michelle Obama is literally going down for the third time into this pool of self-involvement.

And you just you don't think she's going to come up again. Like she's dying of affluence, privilege and self-obsession.
Obviously. Everything she says is negative.
We've been watching clips from her podcast over the past couple of weeks. Everything she says is negative.
I mean, you would never know you are hearing from a woman who is first lady for eight years has become probably a billionaire by this point is out on David Geffen's yacht every other summer, her estate in Martha's Vineyard, her daughters who went to these Tony schools. You would think you were listening to somebody basically like another, like the wife of a George Floyd.
And she's never gotten over, right? Whatever grievance she had growing up. I love how the soundbite begins.
Okay. It's not to fear for myself.
I drive around in a four car motorcade with a police escort. I'm Michelle Obama.
Unbelievable, right? Who talks about themselves that way? Even if you are Michelle Obama, Barack Obama doesn't talk about himself that way. It's just like the hubris.
And then this is the part that jumped out to me more than any other. I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognizable.
In other words, she's worried that as mixed race girls, they're going to get picked up like Kilmar Abrego Garcia, an MS-13 gang member and whisked off to El Salvador.

That is what she's saying, Tucker.

And you know what?

I think she is lying there at night thinking that.

That's what she thinks of America.

She is.

Of course.

And but she's just so miserable.

And it's obvious and always has been. And I do think maybe another.
So you something like that you're like okay what are the lessons for me you know you look at other people's lives and they either go up or down they succeed or they fail and you try to take important lessons for yourself in your own life and one of the lessons that i've always thought michelle obama's life presented to the rest of us is take some time to focus on your marriage if you're're happy in your marriage, you know, you can feel it, you can smell it, you know, you're, you're emanating a kind of peace of tranquility. You know, you're going home to a, to a spiritual fortress, you know what I mean? With your spouse and people who have deeply unhappy marriages and all of it, you know, everyone's been through periods of unhappiness and you know, there's nothing more destabilizing than and you do feel like for the the grasping climbing you know acquiring class of which he's a charter member like there's no time to focus on this one person in your own home or maybe even your own children like they're all about you know I want to deal with Netflix and I want a Kennedy Center Honors Award and me me me me me, me, me, me, me.
And they sort of missed the point, which is in a normal life, your marriage is the core of everything. A happy marriage produces happy people and happy children.
And I just don't think she spent a lot of time on that. I mean, she really dislikes her husband.
Super obvious. I'm not just saying that to be catty.
I feel I think I'm trying to feel compassion for her, but her hostility toward the guy is like unbelievable. And it's been obvious.
Everything she says is negative. About him, for sure.
How long have we known each other? I can't even think of one negative comment you've ever made about Susie. I almost never say negative things about Doug.
Well, I like my wife. Yeah, exactly.
It's not like they're perfect. It's just like when I think about him, I don't immediately go to whatever's negative.
I go to what's positive and what I love about him. And there's a ton.
Well, actually, last time I saw you, you said you were off camera telling me how great Doug is. I mean, that's just a fact.
I remember it really vividly. In fact, I told my wife about it.
No, that that's those are the markers of actual success. Is your marriage happy? Are your children thriving? Are your relationships solid? Like the people around you in your orbit.
And you feel like in her case, boy, the answer is no, but it's not just her. I mean, she's like a freak show and it's easy to make fun of her and, and I enjoy it.
But I do think it's a whole class of people who are afflicted with the same kind of restlessness and rage and emptiness. And they're the ones wrecking our society.
It's not the people at the bottom, it's the people at the top. And they have gone way off the rails.
And she's like a perfect example of it, in my opinion. Well, you know, this is a good lead into Governor Pritzker of Illinois.
I mean, talk about excesses, right? All the seven sins are walking all over him. You just take a look at him.
It's like you can see multiple of them. And he's out there now.
I mean, I guess he fancies himself a contender for 28 and has decided to ratchet up the rhetoric. It wasn't enough for him to try to trans all of our children, he and his weird family.
But this is his latest messaging as he went

through New Hampshire this past Sunday. It's not 12.
Never before in my life have I called for mass

protests, for mobilization, for disruption. But I am now.
These Republicans cannot know a moment of peace.

They have to understand that we will fight their cruelty with every megaphone and microphone that we have.

We must castigate them on the soapbox and then punish them at the ballot box. I mean, he's looking at us like we're a couple of Twinkies.
I'm afraid. Yeah, I mean, sorry, it took me a second.
I mean, there's a guy, there's another man in misery, you know what I mean?

And inherited an inherited money person who has never achieved anything and who is inflicting

his own personal torment on the rest of us.

But he says, I've never called for disruption.

It does raise the other question I always have about the people running everything, which

is what have you built?

What have you created?

What have you improved?

I mean, it is a binary. We're either in this life on this planet, making things better or

making them worse, building or destroying. What have you done for the state of Illinois,

which is bankrupt? There's been an exodus of normal people, people with jobs, people with

families. They're on the West Coast of Florida right now.
That state is wrecked. It's not all

his fault, of course. But why don't you tell me three things you've done to improve Illinois? there aren't any so for him to say i've never called for disruption

you coast of Florida right now. Like that state is, is wrecked.
It's not all his fault, of course, but why don't you tell me three things you've done to improve Illinois? There aren't any. So for him to say, I've never called for disruption before.
It's like, that's actually all you've done. All you've done is advocated for the destruction of children and families for the transing stuff through advocate for the destruction of your state through, you know, your total mismanage of it.
It's like, how could someone like that or Gavin Newsom or anyone else with a track record, an unbroken record of destruction, with a straight face say, hey, give me a bigger job? Like, I just think the whole thing is deranged. We should hire on the basis of achievement.
We should reward people on the basis of achievement across the board, whether it's getting into Princeton, whether it's becoming president. Like, if you have no record of achievement, I'm sorry, we're not going to consider you period.
What do you make of what Gavin Newsom is doing right now with this podcast? Because I've said, I don't, I'm against conservatives going on his podcast because I think it's helping him train for 2028. I don't think we should help him.
I agree. I agree completely.
I didn't think that I know, obviously I know Gavin Newsom. Um, I text with him occasionally.
I am from the state of California. I'm from originally San Francisco.
So, and I have relatives who know him and I, you know, so I'm, I've been through with Gavin Newsom for a long time. I know his ex-wife, uh, and I was, have been bothering him for years.
Like you should come on my show. And he was kind of open to it.
And then he whips around and he's like, no, you should come on mine. And I was like, oh, I would love to, because I would love to bothering him for years like you should come on my show and he was kind of open to it And then he whipsed on he's like no you should come on mine I was like, oh, I would love to because I would love to debate him about what he's done to my state And then I watched a parade of people go on some of whom are good friends of mine by the way Conservatives go on the show and I realized and I'm not attacking them at all I almost did but then I realized oh wait a second a second.
This is like, this is not the point of this is not to have a real conversation or to answer questions. The point of this is to rehabilitate.
And I would say if Gavin, like he's legit smart, I don't think there's anything at all at the core other than misery. Another deeply, deeply unhappy person who, you know, we should be rooting for him to get his life together.
But someone who kind of externalizes everything, you know, there's nothing at the center. And so everything is about the public display, a truly wounded, screwed up person, like on a very deep level, not joking, but also a talented person who will say anything, which in politics is an advantage.
If you will just, if you're willing to say anything, I mean, there's things that you will not say, many of them, because you don't believe them. And maybe, you know, I'll speak for myself, like there's sometimes where I've got strong views on something and I'm like, you know, you should just shut up and keep that to yourself because you will just alienate everybody.
And like, you don't need to express everything that you think. I tell myself that a lot because I have some views that are super unpopular.
Okay. But I will never say

something that I don't believe. That's got to be the line.
But there's no line at all with him, like none. And so, wow, it's kind of hard.
It's kind of hard. You'd be like, you know, Gavin Newsom, you just robbed a liquor store.
He stayed there with a gun in his hand, a fistful of 20s. And he's like, no, I didn't.
You did. And you're like, what? It's postmodern.
It's very hard to debate someone like that. You know what I mean? So you don't see him as the Dems great white hope from California for 2028.
He's pretty white. I mean, it's the anti-white party.
Like they hate white people. They've been systematically disenfranchising white people from the country they were born in.
They say that out loud. That's what diversity is.
It's everybody but white men. So I'm not whining about it.
I'm just noticing that much more comprehensive than Jim Crow ever was. And so for the party that did that, that set up this this Jim Crow system, anti-white system to nominate another white guy, I mean, maybe, but I think they'd be much happier with aoc i i don't take her that seriously i'm not really sure what i think i'm i think what is likely to happen yeah someone's going to come out of nowhere who's got native talent i continue to believe even in the democratic party you have to have talent to succeed i felt that bernie sanders had lot of talent.
I don't agree with him, of course, but I did think he had a lot of talent. And then it turned out he was a fraud also.
But someone like Bernie Sanders, I think populist economics is very popular, actually. Conservatives don't want to admit it, but it is popular.
So someone that comes out and like attacks the credit card companies, attacks the endless war, basically does kind of Trump on the left, that person could easily get elected. I don't think the race stuff has a future.
Well, the problem with AOC is there is a kind of unseriousness about her. I think she's an amazing performer.
I think she's attractive. I think she's different.
I think she's got a ton of talent. I'm not, I'm actually not criticizing AOC.
I'm complimenting her sincerely, but I think she's too much about herself. And I think that it takes enormous self-discipline to get through a presidential campaign.
And I don't know that she has that. And I also think the Israel thing is tough.
It's tough for anybody running in that party. You know, a lot of rank and file Democrats are genuinely mad about the Gaza thing.
Donors obviously are on a different page. So it's a it's a fundamental split in that party.
And I'm not exactly sure how that's resolved or and I'm not sure that she can can walk that line. And who will be on the opposite side? Will it be President Trump for a third term? Because he hasn't totally ruled it out, even with his interview he just gave to The Atlantic.
He said, oh, you know, that would be a norm shattering, but maybe I'm about the shattering. He seems to just be toying with people on this, but I think we both think it's probably going to be J.D., don't you think? Well, I would say with some certainty.
As of today, I mean, boy, things are so dynamic. It's like hard even to know where things are going a lot of the time.
But, you know, if the Republican Party still has standing in the eyes of voters, and I think it will a couple of years from now, J.D. is the, you know, is the obvious.
I mean, he's the most articulate explainer, I think, of Donald Trump's ideas. He's the most powerful and effective vice president in my lifetime, for sure.
And he has managed to do that while remaining completely loyal on the same page as Donald Trump, not undermining him. I mean, that's always the tension between president and vice president.
You know, the vice president has his own aspirations. And so he's sort of subtly undermining the president.
That has not happened at all. And I don't expect that it will.
So yeah, I mean, I think JD is the obvious. I mean, it's certainly not gonna be Nikki Haley.
Like, let's be real. Right.
That was tried and failed. What did you think of the, I haven't spoken to you publicly since then, but what did you think of the scene with JD and Trump and Zelensky in the Oval? Well, I thought it was amazing.
I thought it was amazing. I mean, I'm frustrated because I think that Zelensky is an enemy of the United States.
And I think his government has tried to assassinate a number of people. I don't think that I know that, including some people who are well known on the conservative side.
So I think it's a really, really dark government. It's banned the largest Christian denomination in Ukraine that has sold a lot of the weapons that we have sent them to all kinds of dark groups, including Hamas and the Mexican drug cartels.
I think it's an outlawed government that does not represent Ukrainians. He's not an elected president um he has no he has no moral claim to run that country at all so you know i'm always a little distressed when he's treated as a legitimate president which he's not uh but you know that said he was in the oval like that was not you know i didn't have any control over any of that i didn't want to be in the oval in the first place like hey why don't you stand for election and when you win then we'll treat you like a head of state but you're not a head of state

because he's not so that's my personal view but given that i was thrilled to see donald trump

i think that was genuine peak like we just sent you billions and billions of dollars you stole

a lot of it how many houses do you have zelinski by the way do you have a house in miami do you

have one in france like what you know let's let's actually do an audit of your personal finances

and of buddinoff and all the people around you and like let's find out where the money went

Thank you. do you have a house in Miami do you have one in France like what you know let's let's actually do an audit of your personal finances and of Budenov and all the people around you and like let's find out where the money went that's never been done it's never going to be done because a lot of Americans have gotten rich from it too as I know you know it's a money laundering scheme but with that and all in mind and of course the president knows all that for Zelensky to be like well you owe me more money or else big problems for you I I mean, I think that just that just exploded Trump's brain.
Like he was genuinely outraged. How dare this guy talk to me? This dictator of a client state talk to me that way.
So, you know, I hope that U.S. policymakers will keep that in mind going forward.
This guy is not our ally at all.'s trashing the united states constantly constantly trying to split europe from the united states oh my gosh and there are so many people in the national security state who are so vested in this and who've gotten rich from it that they won't admit it and the whole system's like on autopilot like zielinski runs ukraine ukraine is our ally russia is our enemy it, what? We just waged a three and a half year war against Russia without congressional approval. The United States has been fighting a war, as we speak, is fighting a war against Russia.
No American voted for this. Most Americans don't want it or can feel like, why are we fighting Russia again? Why are they our enemy? Because a small group of people hates Russia for reasons that they never say out loud.
That has a lot to do with the reemergence of Christianity in Russia. They hate that.
And they've roped the rest of us with our tax dollars into supporting this war that we lost. We lost the war.
And we degraded U.S. authority and military power in the process.
We pushed Russia to into a permanent alliance with China. It's been a disaster for the United States.
And nobody has admitted that, said that out loud, and they haven't even changed course. And so it's extremely frustrating to watch.
So what do you think is going to happen now? Trump's his messaging just this week and Marco Rubio's messaging this week has changed to be a little bit more. They're still kind of hopeful, but they sound somewhat exasperated.
Like, look, we're not in this for much longer. If you guys can't work this out, we're out.
This is your conflict, which basically means Ukraine's effed because we know the Europeans won't step up in the way the United States did. So it's over.
I mean, it's I think it's really playing the Trump card on Ukraine. Like you will take the deal under the terms we've said are acceptable or you're on your own, which means your loss, which has already happened, will be official, pronounced and actually could get even worse.
I mean, I think it's really dangerous to to do it this way. I think we should have cut off Ukraine day one, forced a settlement of our choosing in conjunction with the Russians who won.
So in the end, let's be totally honest, the winner sets the terms like that's just a fact. We could try and guide those terms, but we're not in a position of absolute authority in Eastern Europe right now.
It's just a fact. I wish we were, but we're not.
So but I do think the longer this goes on, the higher the incentive for Zelensky and the people around him to drag the rest of the world into this, to commit some serious atrocity in Moscow. And by the way, I was there.
I saw with my own eyes, they sent a drone in and attacked the Kremlin. And of course, the Russians didn't want to admit that because they don't want to admit that their capital city is vulnerable to attack.
But that's a fact. I saw it on fire.
And every Russian I asked denied that it was happening. I was like, wait, there's a look at that.
But that was a Ukrainian drone. And there've been a bunch of them.
And those are American drones. So the United States under Joe Biden attacked the Russian capital.
This is so crazy. And the Russians for their own who are not always honest about things, to be honest, you know, to be clear, they have downplayed that because there are a bunch of different complicated reasons.
But that's all true. And so the Zelensky government has incentive to do more of that.
And you could really see this thing getting completely out of

control. And like, why wouldn't China, North Korea has already sent troops onto the battlefield in

Ukraine. Why wouldn't China do that? So you could have a scenario where the United States, American advisors, we have a million Americans fighting in that war, as you know, if they lie about it, but it's true.
They're in Ukraine fighting. And European troops, NATO troops, and Ukrainian troops are fighting Chinese troops.
This could get out of control super fast. Everyone thinks, oh, I know how this is going to go.
And this is what's going to happen, like some Rube Goldberg set up. And then this is going to happen.
That'll happen. It's like, dude, you have no idea what's going to happen.
You don't know what you're having for dinner tonight. The future is not under our control at all.
And so anyone who tells you like, here's how it's going to go is a liar or dumb. These are dynamic situations and they could go in a crazy unanticipated direction.
If there's one lesson of history, it's that. So you want to shut down the fighting as fast as you can.
And I really hope they will. I don't want to put you on the spot, but you did pique my curiosity with the they've tried to have people assassinated in leadership positions or like, do you mean Trump? Do you mean, are you talking about yourself? I couldn't I couldn't quite glean what you were intimating on that one.
I mean, I would just say that I don't know that they've been responsible for an assassination attempt on Donald Trump. I can't prove that.
I think it's very obvious that the Ukrainians were involved in the attempted assassination on the golf course in Florida this fall. That guy definitely had some contact with Ukraine, for sure.
Well, he was in Ukraine. He was in Ukraine.
And he was asking them for ballistic missiles or rocket propelled grenades. Yes, that's exactly right.
And I think there are others who were the target. I mean, I know for a fact there were others who were a target of assassination attempts by the Ukrainian government.
And by the way, just to be clear, the Ukrainian government, like the U.S. government, like every government has factions within it.
It doesn't mean if one part of the government does something that everyone, the rest of the government knows it's doing it. I mean, there are, it's complicated.
Did the CIA kill Kennedy? No, but it's pretty clear that, you know, James Angleton was aware of it, who worked at CIA. So it's like, it's more complicated and i don't mean to oversimplify anything but it's it's a it's a fact that you elements of the ukrainian government have tried to assassinate a bunch of people and so there you go and i and i think starting with with the with the now president and i and i'm not exactly sure why we haven't gotten to the bottom of that um i've been you know encouraged it on my my show.
I think we do need to get to the bottom of it. I don't know where that investigation is.
I don't know where the Butler, Pennsylvania investigation is. I mean, there are so many obvious unanswered questions.
We know more about Kilmar Abrego Garcia than we know about that shooter in Butler, Pennsylvania. I know more about Dr.
Jill Biden's college career, which is like totally useless information, by the way, than I do about two assassination attempts on the now president. So I think it's very strange.
I'm not withholding something I know. I really don't know why.
I do think the president is instinctively opposed to talking about those attempts. I think he thinks it diminishes him or makes him seem like he's complaining.
I don't know exactly what the reason is, but as an American, I think it's fair for the rest of us to ask, what was that? You can't have a democracy if the head of state lives in fear of assassination. You can't because no one can think clearly or make wise decisions under the threat of death.
So we need to get that settled, I think, soon. While we're on the subject of foreign policy, let's take a minute on the Houthis and Iran.
Yes. And that's a loud war machine too.
I mean, there is definitely a faction of people who would love to see the green light on either us hitting Iran or just backing Israel and it hitting Iran. And the Houthis are backed by Iran.
So that was playing with fire. I understand why we did it totally.
But, you know, I just wonder, I haven't heard you speak directly to that attack or the language that we've been hearing around Iran, even by the president. Like, I don't want to bomb them.
I'd much rather chat. But, you know, it's an option, which I know you're against.
So can you talk about that a bit? Well, I think I mean, look, just in an ideal world, I think Iran is a threat to Israel. I think it's a threat to the Gulf states.
All six of them were allied with those countries. I think they've been really good partners for us.
And so it's on a defense of Iran to ask the question, can we actually do this? I mean, there are all kinds of things that you want to do. The question is, am I capable of doing them? Do I have the power to affect the change I seek? And in the case of Iran, you know, it's not at all clear.
What is clear is that any strike on Iran could potentially, because the future, as noted, is hard to predict, could potentially spin into a much wider, potentially global conflict.

But even in the short term, there are massive, massive downsides.

So there are, what, six Iranian nuclear facilities that we know about or we talk about in public anyway, and all six of them are on the Gulf, the Arabian Gulf or the Persian Gulf, depending on what side you're on.

But they're on the Gulf.

Well, the water supply for every country in the region comes from the Gulf through desalinization. So if you blow up a nuclear site and you pollute the Persian Gulf, then you've got six of the richest countries in the world with no water.
And at least one of them has thought this through and has been building giant reservoirs for seawater, for drinking water, but they're only a couple weeks supply. So like the second point you make is that a huge percentage of global energy goes through that piece of water, you know, out through the Straits of Hormuz and then to the West, to Europe and the United States and to the world.
And so if you shut that down, you're looking at global oil price, you're looking at $25 a gallon gasoline, right? So that's the fastest, most destructive kind of inflation that percolates down through the whole economy because the price of energy determines the price of pretty much everything because energy makes civilization possible. So that's a really big downside.
I'm not saying it's not, you know, it's not a question of like, are you happy that Iran might have nukes? I'm not happy that Pakistan has nukes. There are also, there's at least one other country

that clearly has nukes that nobody says out loud. I'm not talking about Israel, but, you know,

it's a more complicated world. Like France has nukes.
Is France doing deals with other countries

that guarantee nuclear protection for other countries? Probably. You know, so there's,

proliferation is a lot more profound a problem than I think people understand. So, but anyway, no one wants Iran to have nukes.
No one in the Gulf does. Israel doesn't.
Trump doesn't. I don't.
You don't. Nobody wants Iran to have nukes.
The question is, how do we stop that? And I don't really think it's about nukes. I think it's about regime change in Iran, that this government is hostile to the west hostile to israel primarily but also to the united states they are and we would like a new government there that can be our friend now there's a long history in iran going back to 1954 where the u.s government did affect regime change um as you know in fact the guy in charge that lived on my street as a kid former ci officer um roosevelt and that didn't work well and that got us tonight the shah and then to 1979 and then the islamic

republic ever since so like we it's hard to affect regime change in countries you're not from it's

hard to know what the consequences will be we've tampered in that country extensively it hasn't worked at all it's been counterproductive and that's also true of neighboring countries, Iraq, Syria right now, Libya. I mean, just name the country like regime change is hard to pull off.
OK, so anyone telling you regime change. And there are a lot of people paid liars in Washington who are telling you that like, oh, well, just regime change.
So there's a huge lots of people hate the religious authorities in Iran. I think that's true.
Seems to be true. But that's not the same as, oh, we're going to throw in a pro-Western government and everything's going to be fine.
Show us where you've done that before. Oh, you've never done it before.
No, I've been joking that. And when they talk about regime change in Russia, they think they're going to get Jeb Bartlett in there after Putin.
Like, hello. Oh, dude.
Oh, dude. The largest country in the world that's 25% Muslim know, Putin is a moderate.
Putin is the most pro-Western person I've dealt with in Russia. I mean, I'm just telling you, like whatever.
I'm not defending Putin, though. I think you can make a case he's done a great job for Russia.
No, but you're making a case you don't know what's coming next. And yeah, look at the terrorism threat from within Russia.
I mean, he's clamped down on that just the way it's not happening in your country I think I think we can say that anybody at a think tank or a publication or a federal agency who blithely talks about regime change in any country should be disqualified from talking about anything foreign policy related ever again if you had a hand in the Iraq war if you had a hand in the Syria disaster if you would have handed killing Gaddafi if you had a hand in Afghanistan Syria disaster, if you had a hand in killing Gaddafi, if you had a hand in Afghanistan, if you lied about what happened on 9-11, and that's pretty much everybody in D.C. and the foreign policy establishment, you can no longer participate in the decision-making process about where to send arms and money around the world because you are disqualified.
Your track record is so repugnant. We're not going to throw you in jail, though you clearly deserve it.
We are instead just going to take you out of the conversation because you were demonstrably unqualified to get us into new wars because you screwed it up last time. I don't think that's a terrible standard.
That's a really straightforward standard. And I feel angry about it because I spent my whole life there.
My dad worked for the federal government in the foreign policy sphere. And so I just grew up with this stuff and I know the people.
And I know that none of them has ever apologized or changed his thinking, repented. And the baseline requirement in my house as a father is you can do whatever you want.
You can screw up as badly as you want. I will always love you no matter what you do, but you have to admit fault and you have to try to change.
That's called repentance. That's like we should make that a absolute unyielding requirement for our leaders.
If you screw up, if you admit it and try to get better, we still love you. But if you refuse to do that, we're never trusting you again.
And that's our entire foreign policy establishment. And so for those people, and by the way, it's not just that they're like arguing for regime change in Iraq.
They're not. They're not.
They don't either. Not even honorable enough to say what they want out loud.
Anyone who raises questions, I'll speak from great experience on this topic. I've never said word one about what's happening in Gaza.
OK, I have views on it. I'm not impressed at all, but I've tried to pull back because it's not my country.
OK, so I'm just looking at it from an American perspective. I don't want my country to be further weakened, my fellow citizens to die yet again, my federal treasury to be drained yet again on behalf of an idea that's clearly stupid.
I think it's important to say, wait a second, is this a good idea? Can we actually do what you say we can do? For doing that, I have been attacked as a tool of Iran. I'm a freaking Episcopalian.

I am not Shiite as a tool of Qatar, who's like one of our closest allies in the world. The largest American airbase in the Middle East is in Qatar.
They're a close ally of ours. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, you're taking Qatari money.
I've never taken a dollar. I've never taken a dollar from any government.
I mean, are you joking? And these are people who are acting on behalf of a foreign government telling me that I'm unpatriotic. And I try not to get like crazy angry about it, but it's hard because you see these people, you know, Ben Shapiro or these shills, like come out and like attack you personally, because he was bashing you just this week.
But it's what what's so infuriating is like I'm 56 in two weeks. So I've watched this.
I was in Iraq. Like I'm not an expert on anything and I would never claim expertise or try not to claim expertise I don't have.
But just I have a good memory. And I was there for a lot of this stuff.
And I have unresolved rage for the reasons I just explained. No one's apologized.
No one's repented. No one's changed.
And so to attack me is I'm selling out my country, which is the only thing I care about. I don't have another passport.
I have no plans to go anywhere. I could.
I could certainly afford to move some other country. I'm not.
I live directly across from my parents' grave, and I'm never leaving. So to attack me as a shill for another country, when you yourself are shilling for another country, it's almost too much for my tiny brain to deal with, actually.
How much better it would be if someone like Ben Shapiro, who's smart, and I don't think Ben Shapiro is like evil, I'm not attacking him as a person, but how much better would it be if he could just sit and say, OK, here's what I think would happen if we joined an attack on Iran or stop lying to me and telling me that we're going to defeat the Houthis. The whole point of getting involved in a war with the Houthis is to suck us into a war with Iran.
Like, I know that because I know a lot about this topic. So don't patronize me and lie to me.
Just be straightforward and say, I think we can affect regime change in Iran. Here's how we can do it.
And then I could say, well, here are my concerns. But instead it's like, oh, you're weak.
You know, you don't love America. I don't love America? Really? It's too much.
I can't deal with it. Obviously, my goat has been gotten.
Forgive me. I can't remember exactly what he was saying.
But he was definitely suggesting that you were – I can't remember. I just saw it in passing in a headline, so I don't want to try to do something about the Russia.
Oh, I'm a peacenik. Well, I mean, what's wrong with being a peacenik? Oh, I'm too proud.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not. Great.
It's kind of the time for peaceniks after 20 years of endless war and a lot of blood and treasure sacrificed for very little results. Well, I kind of feel that way.
And it's hard for me as someone who's carried a 38 in his pocket for many years to think of myself as some hippie peacenik or something. But I do think that Christianity, unique among the world's religions, certainly among the monotheistic religions, has a real problem with violence.
I just have been reading the New Testament. I'm hardly a theologian.
I'm not not an expert consult other sources uh don't take my word for it but like it's pretty clear in the gospels that when peter pulls out the sword and cuts off the ear of the guy who's arresting jesus and jesus scolds him and heals the heals the slave's ear it's like that's a pretty clear sign that our religion does not condone violence and i don't understand why nobody says that um But that is my read of it. So I do feel like there's a religious impulse behind my views also.
But there's the practical concerns that I just listed. But on the Russia thing, it's like nobody asked me whether I thought Russia should be our enemy.
I'll tell you, no. I think people are really mad that they were not mad at Russia before.
They were not mad when the Soviets ran it. They weren't mad when the drunk Boris Yeltsin ran it.
They were mad when Putin took over in 2000 and started refinancing the Russian Orthodox Church. I do think that was upsetting to a lot of people in the West.
And I think, whatever, that's their view. That's not my view.
I think that's good. I think Christian countries are good.
And I think that, you know, I'm not moving to Russia. I don't speak Russian.
I have kind of nothing to do with Russia, actually. But I definitely don't think it's the most threatening country in the world to us.
I think we should be allies with Russia. I think that's in our interest.
So to say like, oh, you like Putin. Well, OK, first of all, I'm an American citizen.
I can like anyone I want, okay? It's not, doesn't mean I'm unpatriotic. Actually, I would have questions about the patriotism of anybody who wants to get us into a war that's gonna kill more Americans that we can't win and that serves no obvious purpose.
So like the whole way of debating it drives me bonkers. It's like personal, it's attacking people's character, it's attacking their loyalty to the nation.
I thought that's what the left did. And it's also, by the way, in favor of censorship, like, oh, I don't know if you should platform people with those views.
What? That's ridiculous. I don't acknowledge the word platform.
It's not a verb. It's not a verb.
It's a noun. It's something you stand on when you dive into a swimming pool.
It's not a verb. Stop stealing my nouns and making them into verbs.
You douchebag. Yes.
It's stop stealing pronouns that already have a meaning and trying to give them new meaning. They them is taken.
It's not available to you confused people. Sorry.
Wow. No, it's good.
It's a fine tear. I got a lot of places I could go with that.
But what you said is also true about what's happening in Gaza. You know, I've been very pro Israel on this show after the 10, seven attack.
And then I haven't been following the day to day, you know, bombing campaign, but I have noticed, and I've talked to Glenn Greenwald on the program about it a lot that, you know, the people who have problems with what Israel is doing too often get the knee jerk. You're an anti-Semite.
And it's, that's not okay either. You know, it's like, it is totally fine to criticize Israel and to think that they've gone too far and that they've been too, you know, non-judicious in, in this retaliatory campaign.
That is, you cannot dismiss anybody who feels that way and who is really critical of how Israel's handled itself as an anti-Semite, but that gets, you know, that gets collapsed too into like one of those narratives one cannot espouse. You are not allowed to say that just like you are not allowed to have a different view of Putin and this war, you know, this proxy war that we've entered to against him.
So it's actually, it's a very powerful slur. It has a much more immediate effect on my life that, you know, they called me for years a racist or whatever.
Okay. You know, if I was racist, literally all over the New York times, they're so disappointed.
They couldn't bring you down there. It's like, I didn't really care.
Um, you know, I have a lot of Jewish friends, like real friends, not, not people I know, but like actual friends. And, um, so I don't want to be called that because it's not true.
And and it's a very tough thing to call somebody. And all of a sudden I you know, the last thing I want is a fight over Israel.
I just don't. By the way, I do think way too much headspace in this country and too much public debate is devoted to foreign countries.
Like, I want to know how we're going to fix the roads in this country and lower the suicide rate a little bit in the O.D. rate.

I think you should be worried about drug cartels. Just, just, just quickly.
We're not talking about in our last half hour today, we're going to be talking about the fentanyl crisis because it's the national fentanyl awareness day. And it's the number one killer of our young people.
The number one killer of our young people. It's killed more people than all the wars since the world war two forward has killed in America.
And we're just kind of like, I mean, until Trump really, we weren't paying much attention to it at all. Yeah.
I mean, and I think all of us, I know a couple of people have died from it and, and I'm not unusual. I think everyone knows people who died from it.
So it's, it's, it's literally like the worst thing that's happening in the United States. And you know know, fentanyl's killed more Americans than Iran has.
So on some level, it's like I resent the hijacking of my concern by a foreign country. I mean, I do.
And I think, look, I've spent a lot of time in foreign countries. I think foreign policy is super interesting.
It matters to the United States. The world matters.
I mean, I'm not an isolationist in any sense. I'm actually in more foreign countries than most people by a lot, you know, but I do think fixing the United States is the main priority for Americans.
So that bothers me. But on the question of Israel, it's like, I like Israel.
I've been there a number of times, taking my family there on vacation. They're going again soon.
We're Christians. They want to go to Jerusalem.
I got it. So, and I have a million friends who both live in Israel and who love Israel.
So I don't want to have a fight about Israel at all, just at all. So I've really tried not to have that fight and, but I don't want the United States to enter in another unwinnable Middle Eastern war.
I just really, really don't, especially now we don't even have the ammo for it. So whatever, there's a lot, but anyway, I have been like attacked in ways that are so crazy that I and it's totally coordinated from Israel.
So I finally the other day I called someone I know in the Israeli government. There are like some great people in the Israeli government.
I called one of them and I said, you know, stop this. Like, I am not your enemy.
You have you don't think you have enough enemies? What? You have like real enemies. I've gone out of my way.
And by the way, it's our weapons being used. No, I know you have in Gaza.
So I have every right to say you have a dispute with your neighbor and you want to get medieval on him. Do it on your own dime.
Do it with your own weapons. I'm not paying for that.
That's a totally fair position as an American taxpayer who pays like way more than a share in taxes. Like I have a right to do that.
I haven't done that because I don't want to fight, but I've been attacked anyway. And these creepy people taking direct orders from a foreign government are attacking me on the internet.
And I wouldn't care except this specific slur affects my personal life. Like really old friend of mine, 35 year old friend.
I can't believe what they're saying. Is this true? Is it true that I'm an anti-Semite? No, of course it's not.
What are you even saying? So, um, so they've gotten to me. So that's made me upset.
So I called up and I was like, you guys got to stop. We're not doing that.
I've, you know, I'm almost 56. I know how the world works.
Please stop. Well, and I was like, you, if you think I'm your main enemy in a world that really hates you, I mean, they're right about that.
A lot of people really do hate Israel. I'm not one of them.
If you think I'm the problem, you've gone off the deep end. You're insane.
I am showing restraint. The only thing, I've done one segment on the whole topic and it's on Christians in the Holy Land.
I am a Christian. My family's been Christian for whatever you know, whatever, a thousand years.
I have a right to say this. And Christians in the Holy Land are mistreated by Muslims and by Israel and in the West Bank and in Gaza.
And I have a right to say, I don't think that U.S. tax dollars should be used to mistreat Christians.
And by the way, my real contempt is not for Israel. It's for the American evangelical preachers who ignore this, the Christian Zionists who think it's okay to blow up a church because they're weird theology, which is like demonstrably not in the New Testament.
I can just tell you it's not there. I don't know where they came up with this.
It's not there. It's not what it says, but whatever.
I'm mad at them. I did one segment on that.
And all of a sudden I'm like a Holocaust denier or something. So anyway, I called up and I said, you guys got to pull back on this stuff.
It's crazy. And again, I'm the wrong target.
And I don't think it really had any effect, but I did do that because it's like, why would I want that? I just don't want to go to Iran. How does it make its way to you, Tucker? Because I know you wisely avoid the internet as much as possible.
Because people I know, I get texts from people who were like, oh, you know, is it, do you really have a Holocaust denier on your show? What? No. I mean, I was in a meeting.
So it comes to you personally. Right.
Okay. With a well-known person who's like, who I like, who's like, my wife wanted me to ask you, why did you have a Holocaust denier on your show? And I was like, I don't even know what the hell he was talking about.
And it's just layers of propaganda. Rather than, look, and I'm not, I hate it when people whine about being attacked.
I almost never do it. I'm just, in this specific case, I think we are being robbed of the debate that we need over our foreign policy, over foreign influence on our politics, which is absolutely profound.
And it's not coming from Russia. It's coming from Israel.
It's profound. You can't even say that out loud because why? And I feel like none of us can have an honest, non-hateful non-crazy non-antisemitic just a straightforward conversation about sovereignty like can we make decisions that are in interest or not and about what the wise course is and by the way I think you should listen to other countries including Israel and Canada and France and every country like what you do has an effect on other people, and you should hear them out.

I'm not saying you shouldn't.

You should, and I would include Israel in that.

I'm merely saying we should talk openly

and not leave it to the crazy people.

Responsible, normal, non-hateful people

should have an open conversation

about what the right next steps are.

And the risks. All kinds of different theaters and the risks.
That's exactly right. And you can't because all of a sudden you've got Ben Shapiro being like, oh, you're sucking up to Putin.
You're anti-Semitic. It's like, son, sit this one out.
You have no idea what you're talking about. You're a child, actually.
And you're reading talking points that discredit you. I think Ben is smart.
He probably has interesting things to say, but when you are unwilling to criticize a foreign government at all, it tells the rest of us what you're saying isn't real. Like, will you criticize the US government every day? Are you kidding? My dad worked for the US government and I'm willing to criticize.
That's all I do is criticize the US government. You're not gonna criticize a foreign government? What are you talking about? Who wrote these rules, man? And you're going to try and shut me up by calling me a hater when I'm not? And if I were, I would just say so? I don't think that's going to work.
Yeah, no, it didn't work when the New York Times tried to do it to you on the racist claim or to me for that matter. And it can't work on an anti-Semitism charge either.
Like we have to. We have to be able to talk about Israel and Iran.
Very honestly, the ups and downs and the, I mean, severe risks of this strategy that many are pushing. Though the question is whether Trump is listening.
All right, we gotta squeeze in a break. The one and only Tucker Carlson, he's so interesting, isn't he? I haven't even scratched the surface of my list.
So we'll come back and we'll scratch some surfaces. Don't go anywhere.
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Hi, everyone. This is former White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer.
We all know that Americans are still recovering from the record inflation of the past four years. Now, some in Congress want to make cuts to Medicaid, a program that provides critical health care to 72 million struggling Americans, including veterans, people with disabilities, kids, and your friends and neighbors.
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Donald Trump campaigned on a promise to protect Medicaid. As president, he's still promising to love and cherish Medicaid.
Did you know that 12 million Medicaid families live in rural communities? Many of these people voted for Donald Trump and they didn't vote for this. If Congress cuts Medicaid, a lot of rural hospitals could close and a lot of rural families will be hurt.
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In a world where anyone with big money or big breasts can reach the stars. Three women, one mission.
They all find me very inspirational. Yes.
Limited training. Right, left, right, left.
Their dream to inspire humanity, or at least grab a few good selfies. This Friday on the Megyn Kelly Show, the launch of Blonde Origin.
I don't appreciate what people call it a ride. It's not a ride.
It's a mission. There's nothing frivolous about what we just did.
Blonde Origin. Where weightlessness and cluelessness collide.
I'm inspirational. That is so awesome.

You're going to the Middle East and I'm going to space.

No, I just love that.

I can't see any video, so I'm just hearing it.

Like, what's this?

That's awesome.

We got to tune in on Friday when we have our official response to the ridiculousness of that Blue Origin space flight where we crowned six new astronauts. You may have heard.
They have a difficult time calling themselves astronauts because they're not. But we had so much fun mocking them.
And let's just say we took it to new heights, the mockery. It's not a ride.
It's a mission. So good.

Okay.

I want to start with this.

Mark Halpern was on the show recently, and he had something interesting to say about you,

and it had the ring of truth.

I know he's been on your show, too.

Take a listen to what he reported here on the show.

Do you think Pete Hegseth will survive this? And will he survive

as defense secretary? Because it's very clear some group of people that's pretty loud is out to get him. Yeah.
So I've got what I call the Trump board of directors. Okay.
And the board directors is uh directors is, uh, Tucker, Charlie Kirk, and Don Jr. And if the board of directors support something, I think generally it, it ha it happens.
And I believe all three of them, I know all three of them have been supportive. Well, confirm or deny.
Well, I, no one tells me when the meetings are, um, no, of course not. I'm not on a board of directors.
No, I... You know, it means informally that you're like the top advisors on the outside.
No, my gosh. I don't like it when people exert influence secretly.
It's better just to say out loud exactly. Because what happened, and I've seen it obviously my whole life, is that people become power worshipers really quickly.

It's in all of us to kowtow to power, to worship power, to want power. And that's our destruction.
So I'm wary of all of that. I mean, I love Trump.
I've always, you know, I mean, I've definitely gone through phases over the last 20 years of knowing Trump. but no I you know there's no one who's more entertaining fun to be with whose instincts are

they're just incredible. He's like, he's an incredible person.
You don't, obviously he's an incredible person. So I really like Trump so much.
And, but I try and say, I try to probably don't always succeed, but I try to say exactly what I would say in private, in public. I just try to be transparent both.
So I don't have to keep track of different storylines or lies and also because I just feel better. It's just good to be open about everything.
I do think Pete is under attack. I love Halperin, by the way.
He's really smart. He's launching his own podcast today.
It's called Up Next with Mark Halperin. And that's part of our new MK Media podcast network.
Sorry, Next up, next up. I love that.
Oh, I didn't even know. I'm going to text him right now.
But anyway, I think his analysis is totally right. There is a group, I think it's partly ideological, that would very much like to see Pete out.
I'm on this, you know, I'm of course close to Pete. I've known Pete a long time.
We have the same job. I know you are as well.
And so i'm strongly for pete but i do think that a lot of the drama at the staff level in the pentagon some of it's just the product of the fact the pentagon is a snake pit very complicated place to work i said to pete recently i was like there's no way i could ever i couldn't run that place for one day i mean i'm just i'm in awe of anyone who can run the pentagon so i think that's part of it but there's also an ideological motive here and pete is like sensible he's rooted in the

experience of the troops he is of course loyal to the president he understands the president's vision

and it would be a lot easier i think to have like a crazed neoconservative senator run the pentagon if you wanted a war with Iran. I do think that's part of it.
And so I don't understand a lot of what's happening there. I do know Dan Caldwell pretty well, who's one of the aides, one of the senior aides who was fired.
Yeah. And I'm completely convinced, and I think the evidence proves, that Dan Caldwell did not leak classified information to NBC News.
That's a lie. I was told that by somebody who I trust, by the way, who I think was telling me the truth.
He believed it also. But that was out there.
Everyone heard that. He photocopied information or took a picture on his phone, texted it to this reporter at NBC, broke federal law.
That's a crime to do that. Undermined the president, et cetera, et cetera.
Well, that's not true. He didn't do that.
And moreover, not only did he not do that, there's no evidence that he did it because they never took his phone and they never polygraphed him. So the whole thing was one of those classic Washington, I think of it as like getting attacked by a swarm of bees.
Like you're just going along, you're walking through the woods and all of a sudden you step on a hive and they're just flying up your shorts. They're on you.
You can't think straight. All you know is pain.
And that's how they get people like this stuff will appear out of nowhere. All of a sudden you'll just hear so-and-so's bad.
He did something really wrong. I don't know all the details, but he's, he's done.
And, and then the, the five minute hate begins and the person's destroyed. That's what happened to Dan Caldwell.
And, but the question is why wasn't personal because Dan Caldwell was a check against the enormous pressure that the Pentagon and the White House are receiving to engage in a war with Iran and also to destabilize Pete. I mean, he'd worked with Pete for over 10 years.
They were concerned veterans for America together.

So he knew him well.

And so to take away all the people that the secretary knows well and trusts and replace them with, you know, sinister lifers who are never telling the truth about anything, I do think, again, I don't have any special knowledge. This is just my outside analysis as someone who's a student of bureaucracy, the federal bureaucracy.
I think that's what happened. So after you guys, after you sat with Dan Caldwell, which was a great interview and it hit last Monday, everybody should listen to it.
We wound up speaking with one of the other guys who got fired, Colin Carroll. And he had a different take on it.
His take was, I mean, he didn't put it in this exact way, but he said, they're having these fights with this Joe Casper, who's Pete's chief of staff. They couldn't get along with this guy.
He couldn't get along with them. Like pretty much all three of them.
It sounded like maybe he felt threatened by them. He denies that he says the office was running fine.
Just look at the results. But they seem to say this guy was an obstacle that they were trying to get around.
And I think they think he was out to get them and he thinks they were out to get him and they think he had a heavy hand in setting it up to look like they were the leakers. And I don't know exactly whether that's true or not, but obviously those three were walked out the door and he was walked out of his position.
He's no longer the chief of staff, but the whole thing has the unfortunate effect of making Pete's top inner circle look like it's in disarray. And I'll say this, we both like Mark a lot.
So his podcast is called Next Up. It's going to premiere today.
And he, I believe, has a bit of news. He's going to be breaking on Pete.
And it doesn't sound like it's necessarily going to be all that positive. So we'll have to tune in.
Even I don't know exactly what it is. So we'll have to tune in to find out.
But I'll ask you the same question I was asking there. Do you think he will survive this? Because, you know, there are a lot of people out to get him.
And you don't know, right? So far, outwardly, Trump's been saying he stands by him. But you just never know how much of this he wants to wade through.
well of course i have no idea what halpern's gonna say and he's been as he does actively

reporting on this i have not been so i'm sure he knows a lot more than i do um so i don't want to get you know over my skis and make yet another bad prediction which i've done for 30 years well putin will never invade ukraine okay that was one of my bad predictions but um excuse me but um my sense as of last time I was paying close attention, talking to people is that Pete, Secretary Hegseth, did have the full support of the president. And, you know, both because I think he loves Pete as a person.
I know I do. He's just a good guy.
And his wife was my producer I love Jen. And so I, and, but I think Trump feels the same way about them.
Pete has a lot of friends. People like Pete.
He's a good man. Um, but also because I don't think you want to lose a key cabinet secretary a hundred days in, I don't think that's a good precedent at all.
And for what I am. And for what, you know, it's like, that's exactly for what, because there were staff squbles yes exactly no i think that's exactly i think it's exactly right and but here's what i and and what i don't know colin um i've heard he's an amazing person and a patriot and a man of bravery and integrity and i believe all of that and i'm sure that you know staff squabbles and fights with the chief of staff, Joe Casper, played a huge role in all of this.

But my specialty is on, you know, the bigger questions, the ideological questions. And I just can't confirm, since that's the world that I live in, that there is huge pressure on a bunch of cabinet secretaries, particularly on Pete Hegseth, to go along with this war with Iran.
Like that is priority one right now for a bunch of different reasons, partly because of where American troops are on rotation in the Middle East. There happen to be a lot of them right now, partly because there's a belief that Iran's air defenses have been neutralized to some extent and maybe for other reasons.
So there's a lot of pressure right now. And so that is a factor in every big decision that's made, you know? And and I would just say that's a shame because we have a lot of I mean, that's those are all fair questions.
Should we bomb Iran? Like that's a real conversation. We should not ignore the conversation.
But as you just said earlier about fentanyl, like this country has a lot of problems. And Donald Trump was elected by grateful voters who wanted those questions to be addressed.
And so I just hope as we debate problems in other countries, we also reserve time to fix our own. Well, on that front, as we hit the 100 day mark, it's incredible what Trump has done at the border.
And I don't think anybody's complaining about what he's done at the border. Even the Democrats aren't really saying anything negative about what he's done at the border.
They're focused on the deportations, which is equally as important. I mean, we've got at least 10 million illegals to get out of this country and we are being stymied at every turn by a media and the left who are hand in hand determined to stop it, even with the so-called worst first policy that Tom Homan is pursuing under Trump.
We're going to start with not just those who are here illegally, but those who have committed additional crimes or gang members, et cetera.

And you've seen what the media has been doing to Trump on that front. It's been ridiculous.

But I wonder what your thought is as Trump battles all this, because we saw the first

potential drop in polling this week for Trump, even on immigration. That New York Times poll

showed for the first time he was underwater on his support for his immigration policies. And overall, he's getting polled.
Like today, there was one that just dropped from NPR slash PBS slash Marist, 1400 and change people. Overall, they give him a grade.
The majority said a D or an F. 52% said he gets a D or an F.
23% gave him an A. 17% gave him a B.
8% gave him a C. But the way this shakes out, Tucker, is 80% of Democrats gave him an F.
89% D or F. Republicans, 83% gave him an A or a B.
And it was really the independents that drove the poll toward the negative for Trump. And really, the reason that happened is because 35 percent he gets an A or a B and 55 percent said he gets a D or an F.
So you've got a 20 percentage point difference in the independents on whether he's doing a good job or a bad job. If you look at the number of people polled, 1,400 and change again, that's about 450 independents.
So call it like 85 independents are in that swing. You've got 85 people polled who are independents of it, which swung this number, you know, sort of dramatically.
Now all the press will run with, oh my God, he's being rejected by everybody. Look at these terrible numbers.
He's a D or he's an F. And they will certainly try to say it's these deportations.
And they will also say it's tariffs. So your thoughts on all that? I think tariffs are a completely separate category where I'll just say I'm hoping for the best, but uncertain as to how this is going to play out.
And I'm not qualified even really to guess. But of course, same.
Thank you for your honesty. And I'm rooting for that.
Oh, yeah. Well, I don't I don't want to be clown myself by talking about things I don't understand.
Right. It's just that's not my area.
So but but immigration, you know, I feel like I know more about him from a state that was destroyed by it completely. Gavin Newsom didn't destroy California.
Mass immigration destroyed California. It's a completely different population than the one I grew up with.
And it's not better. It's much worse.
So that's the story around the world. It's the story of Sweden, where my ancestors came from.
It's a story of Great Britain, where my other ancestors came from. It's a story of all Western Europe, France, Spain.
These countries have been destroyed by mass immigration. That's not a guess at this point.
The results are in. We know.
And so from my perspective, the real number in the United States is unknown. I spoke to a federal official recently who told me the real number is probably closer to 50 million illegal aliens living in the United States right now.
So that leaves me confused. So you are watching in real time a digital prison being built around the rest of us on the basis of facial recognition and quote, real IDs, where you can't conduct any business.
You can't travel without verifying you are who you say you are. Okay.
That's the point of this. It's for our safety, but somehow we can't even know who lives in this country with facial recognition and real IDs.
The federal government intrudes into every decision you make in your personal life, but somehow they're totally incapable with all of that technology of telling us how many non-citizens are living here illegally. I call bullshit on that.
That's a lie. And I also wonder, what is the aggregate number of deportees in the last 100 days? If it's under a million, I'll just say I'm disappointed.
And I say this is someone who voted for Trump, who loves Trump. I like Tom Homan.
But what is this? The scale of this, because this country is so large, is opaque to most people. They don't understand that our country was just completely changed forever.
And it's not acceptable. I mean, I happen to live in a place that's really been affected by immigration, by refugee resettlement, which is, I think, a worse problem than illegal immigration, by the way, because at least illegal immigrants are showing a willingness to put their own butt on the line to get a better life.
There's something about that that everybody admires. I don't admire anything about a church group, Catholic charities or the million Protestant groups that move refugees from some refugee camp in Africa into my community where they languish, commit welfare fraud, commit crime.
I'm not even attacking them. I feel sorry for them too.
You were were just living in Sudan or Somalia, and now you're living in Minneapolis or Portland, Maine. It's like, I feel sorry for you.
No one really cares about the effect on you or your family, obviously, but the net effect on the people who live there is terrible. I can verify that.
And no one even mentions it. It's like truly destroying the United States.
It's the largest crime ever committed against us. I am not a racist.
I'm not even insecure about it anymore since I've been called it so much. It's not in my heart.
I'm not a racist. I am a nationalist who loves this country and has no other.
And that is a true, true attack on the United States. And I think we need more resources, more seriousness, and higher numbers.
Like, get back to me when you deport 5 million people. This just hit.
As we were speaking, Bill Malugian of Fox News knew ICE announces they've deported 65,682 illegals in the Trump administration's first 100 days and have arrested 66,000 and change illegals, 75% of whom have criminal charges or convictions. So that's, we've arrested about 66,000 and we've deported 66,000.
So that's a best case scenario of getting rid of or getting custody over about 120,000 Tucker. And that's not great.
It's not great. They've been stymied at every turn.
The local officials haven't allowed it. The courts, the ACLU.
But I mean, how any I have to say even this, you're like, we're waiting on our big, beautiful bill so President Trump can get funding for his initiatives. It's Tom Homan's been jumping up and down saying, I have no place to put the people.
Like, you know, they do have some certain time where we have to lock them up before

we can ship them out while they get their, quote, due process.

He's like, I'm running out of beds.

Like, I need I need help.

That's what he's been saying.

But what do you think of that?

Because that's why is it incumbent on us?

First of all, stop refugee resettlement in the United States.

It's destroyed a lot of communities.

It's destroyed communities I'm very familiar with.

Destroyed them forever.

So stop that immediately. We have no moral obligation to take a single new refugee, and we shouldn't.
Period. Second, Mexico.
One word, Mexico. Mexico, a country that exists because of our largesse, because we move so much manufacturing in Mexico.
I mean, you know, Monterey, Mexico, which is the economic engine of Mexico, wouldn't be so if it weren't for the United States.

And so we have a lot of leverage over Mexico.

By the way, they're sending us drugs.

We're sending them jobs. And they're also sending us refugees and illegal immigrants from all over the world.

How about we just move a million people to Tijuana tomorrow and say, you deal with it.

You did this to us.

You deal with it.

And it was intentional.

The anti-American sentiment, not among ordinary Mexicans who are honestly some of my favorite people, I grew up next to them, awesome people, but their leaders hate the United States. They always have since the Mexican Revolution.
That's why Leon Trotsky sought refuge in Mexico. There's a reason because the leadership of Mexico is extremely anti-American, extremely ideologically left-wing full atheist by the way in a catholic

country it's a super dark management structure in mexico and always has been honestly since the

hezteks and they have no choice they're the country that we should be applying pressure to

here are here are illegal aliens that walked across your sovereign territory to get into our

country you deal with them and you cut the deal with guatem you cut the deal with Honduras or Peru what do you make of all the due process due process we have to give them due process before you know this is the United States we have to give due process before we kick them out really I'm for due process and I am for due process it specifically for me I'm an American citizen American citizens pay for this system. Their ancestors built this system and they deserve its fruits.
And the first among them is fairness and due process. They're basically the same thing.
So I'm not that concerned whether someone who broke a law, my law, to get into my country and is taking welfare from my pocket gets due process. I'm not that concerned.
Second, after three years of getting a daily lecture about democracy and how it dies in darkness, democracy, democracy, what is democracy? Democracy is the idea that the people in a country run the country. They make the big decisions.
They own it. They're not slaves or serfs.
They're shareholders in this enterprise called America, and they have a say. So now those same people are telling me that some appointed unelected federal judge gets to invite seven billion people into my country and there's nothing I can do about it.
Yeah, I don't think so. I'm not playing along with that.
I'm totally for balance of power. I'm for the current system as envisioned, which, by the way, is going away.
It's not sustainable with this population. Let's be honest.
It's not. Nobody cares about the Constitution anymore.
I do because I'm a legacy American. but none of the newcomers, the 50 million people who just got here, they don't care at all.
Why would they? It's not their heritage. It's mine.
So you're going to lecture me about that and then tell me that we can't stop anybody coming here on our dime who just feels like coming here. I'm ignoring you.
I'm literally ignoring you. What are you going to do about it? That's how I personally feel about it, because that's the end of democracy.

You're violating the people's will through your appointment, your appointed power, not

your elected power.

Power does not derive from the population.

It derives from the appointment that you got.

And you're making the central decision in our society.

I don't think you are.

So how do they speed it up?

I mean, Trump's done so much Alien Enemies Act and he expanded expedited removal and we're back to remain in Mexico and he has home and out. Like, how does he speed it up? The first thing you do is just say not anyone who's a non-citizen, a non-citizen of the United States is ineligible for any federal benefit.
That means no public schooling. That means no food stamps or SNAP.
That means no housing vouchers. That means no benefit designed for American citizens can go to a non-citizen.
You want those benefits? Become a citizen. And if you're not a citizen, you get nothing.
Why would you? How can you use, how are we sitting here

and watching every small hospital

in the United States

is going under right now

because people who have no right to be here

are using the emergency room.

Bring your kid to an emergency room

outside of some tiny, gated, rich community

and you will find out

that the whole system is collapsing

under the weight.

I'm sure they're all good people.

I'm not even attacking them.

They're doing what I would do. They're using the available largesse to help their families.
I get it. We're the criminals here.
We're allowing this. So you just say, now on executive order, no non-citizen, period, can receive federal benefits, period.
The president can control that. And then we'll find out who's here for a better life and to bootstrap his way to success and who's here because there's just a lot of free stuff from a very weak overindulgent generationally wealthy country that has lost track of reality and the reality is open borders in a welfare state cannot coexist and and we'll find out we We'll find out.
We definitely have to make greater

progress than this because, I mean, it doesn't get easier as time goes on. That's not enough.

130,000 or so in the first 100 days is underwhelming. Let me ask you about you.

Every time I chat with you, you're all over hell and gone. I don't know where you are.

So describe your life these days.

Well, I'm hoping to go fishing this afternoon.

Are you, are you currently up North or down South? Yeah, yeah, no, I'm, I'm up, I'm up in Northern New England where, you know, we had a day on Sunday that was so ugly slate gray skies 40 degrees drizzle no buds on any tree at all um and salt and sand on the roads from winter and everybody looking kind of like i just spent the last three months inside by the wood stove drinking coffee brandy like people just look like they've been through a war as they do in cold climates in the spring and i thought to myself this is still the prettiest place on earth i've been been everywhere in the world. And this is the prettiest, even on this, the ugliest out of 365 days, it's still the prettiest place God ever made.
So I'm just really grateful to live where I do. And I've been here a long time and I'm really thankful.
I've had a lot of foreign travel. Here I've been like lecturing Ben Shapiro about how you need to care more about America.
And I'm like in all these other countries. So I understand, um, that I'm a hypocrite and I am, I view it from where I sit is like adult education.
I feel like you're pursuing a whole new education for yourself now that you have the time to do it. Well, you certainly get a different perspective.
I mean, I have to say, you know, I've been to every state more than once. Most of them, a lot of really know America pretty well.
I've traveled my whole my whole life uh since i was a child and i've just seen a lot of stuff and i continue to think it's the you know you don't need to fly first class on emirates to see the world you can literally get in your truck and just drive 100 miles and you just learn a lot of stuff i mean yesterday i was visiting a friend in another state i was driving and i see this church clearly it's an episcopal church like it's obviously I know the design of our churches and there's no sign. So I pull up in front and I walk in and it's totally empty.
The pews have been taken out. The altar's gone.
There are no banners hanging from the ceiling. And I'm like, this is an abandoned stone Episcopal church.
And I've been thinking about it ever since. Like the denomination I grew up with has totally collapsed because they forgot that God is the power that, know gets people in the pews on sunday like right you give up god your church collapses that's like i just drove 80 miles yesterday and i learned that like that expanded my head a little bit fly to saudi arabia for two weeks like i did this winter or just go someplace new and see stuff and you just understand more and it the last thing i'll say is like the main lie of the moment that we live in the generation we live in is that the truth is accessible on your phone that like if you google enough you'll get to the truth of things and that is just itself a lie like that's a that's a total lie and to some large extent it's a control device designed to to make you think things that aren't true and to lead you astray and the antidote to that is to put down your phone, smell things, see things, feel things, like go places, meet people, you know, take a deep breath through your nose.
I'm a big sniff guy. I'm on Joe Biden's side that way.
I really believe in the olfactory sense is the most revealing. When I sniff every person I meet, I never put anything in my mouth that's smelling it.
Not one time in my whole life. I really believe in that.
And I'm going to pay attention to whether you smell me the next time I see you. Oh, I've sniffed you many times in a totally harmless way that would not threaten Doug at all.
But I just sniff everybody. I really believe in that because you learn a lot about someone by smell and vibe.
And that's just real. I'm not, I'm hardly a hippie.
Okay. But that's just a fact.
And you can't smell anything on the internet. Yes, it's totally real.
I can identify my whole family by smell. My wife at least.
Yeah, I've heard you say, like each child. 100%, I know their smell instantly.
And my wife, I mean, I'm literally like a wombat or something. If you are downwind, like I know, uh, sorry, excuse me.

That's impressive because they say females have a greater sense of smell than men have. So if

you're that keen in your sense, then you're, you're even more evolved than the average person.

I'm less evolved.

Nose up right now. Okay.
So that's good. All right.
That I, your point is get out there,

get touch grass, all that. And on that front, you've been a big MAGA, MAHA, MAHA person in, in that you helped launch Casey and Callie means who are basically the right hands of RFKJ right now, not to mention RFKJ himself had a huge hand in his comeback and ascension to this position.
So how are you doing on that front? Cause I do hear you talk about your love, yes, of Susie, but also of a woman we know as little Debbie. And I, I don't, are you practicing what you're preaching? Oh, my garbage food intake? Yes.
No. And I've been on the road for so long.
I mean, you can't imagine there are countries in which which the three meal program is just the beginning. I mean, there are countries, particularly in the Middle East, where it's like, would you like some more hummus and pita bread? How about some dates? And I just, I mean, I have, I quit drinking.
I quit smoking cigarettes. I quit drugs.
I feel like I've quit deodorant. I mean, like, I'm totally straight edge about everything.
Yeah. But I just have a huge weakness.
I was thinking about that this morning. I was in my sauna and I'm like, I gotta, I gotta stop eating garbage.
Uh, so no, that is definitely one of my huge problems. My other problem is I just want, as someone who is really, really hoping above all things for grandchildren, I want the vaccine schedule to change for kids.
I, I just think I know. I just think it's really, I don't know why that hasn't changed.
I think it will too. I haven't complained, but I just, if you're asking like my view of it and what I want, I, I want that because I'm going to have grandchildren and I'm, I think going to really care about them more than anything.
And I don't want them injected with all that stuff at all. Like I think, I mean, I really feel Bobby Kennedy.
He definitely, I mean, he, he said he had all of his kids vaccinated, but he wishes he had more information. And that's what he keeps saying.
He just wants us to have more information before we make the same decision with our kids or our grandkids. And what's wrong with that? Why, why shouldn't we know like this one's, this one's there to prevent a sexually transmitted disease in your one hour year old, right? We should know.
Well, that's it. It's just, there's, there's a lot of coercion in healthcare.
And I just watched this firsthand with a, with a dying parent. And there's, and I think everyone I've ever met, like doctor, especially the nurses, like they're all great people.
They're motivated by the right impulses. I think I would not, I don't think they're bad at all.
I really admire and love them. But I think the system they work within pushes toward certain protocols like with serious vehemence.
It's like, well, that's what we do. This person needs an opiate.
And it's like, well, he doesn't want it actually. Well, he needs it.
Or this child needs a vaccine. Well, I don't think we're going to do that because I don't think my one day old is going to get an STD.
Well, we, you know, I think there needs to be more respect for choices. Like you should be allowed to turn down certain treatments or prophylactics without being lectured by somebody.
Like, I think that's really important. And for information providing, I think that's what's been kept from us on the vaccines.
They don't, they don't share to this day. They're not really making a thing out of the myocarditis that is so common with young teenage boys who take the umpteenth COVID booster.
Like that we know, cause we're in this ecosystem, but this is not something that they promote or want us to know about. And that's kind of been the theme of our whole discussion today.
Like, why can't we talk about it? Why can't we talk about the risks when it comes to Iran? Why can't we talk about potential Israeli overreach when it comes to the war in Gaza? Why can't we talk about the downsides of vaccines? Why can't we talk about immigration without being called names like this? It's a theme. And to me, it just gets to the tools that the left use to try to stifle conversation or arguments that might undercut their favorite things.
And it's just their day is over, Tucker. And it's over.
Our day is here where we get to talk about it all. Amen.
And it has a counterproductive effect. And I see it in myself.
I'm not going to allow myself to become a bigot on the question of Israel, period. I'm just not going to allow it.
I know that that's a risk. I see other people fall prey to that.
I'm not doing that, period. So that's not going to happen to me.
But I do see it happening on medical questions and science questions because I was attacked so viciously for asking questions about the vaccine during COVID. And I find myself driven to like an extremist position.
Like I'm just not going to the doctor ever. I'm not going to the doctor.
I get cancer. I'm not taking chemotherapy.
That's crazy. But I feel that in myself because I'm reacting against unfair attacks on my character just for asking, I thought, pretty normal, low IQ questions, just very simple questions.
And I am responding to that because every action has an equal and opposite reaction, like in life as in physics. And we need to check ourselves to make sure that we're not becoming crazy.
And I just know on healthcare questions, I have become crazy. Like I'm not putting, I don't know what is wrong with fluoride, but it's not in my toothpaste.
I'm not, like I've really gone like to the far extreme. Like I'm not, if a doctor tells me to get a shingles vaccine, well, he wouldn't because I don't go to the doctor.
But let's say I went to the doctor and he's like, get a shingles vaccine. I would like raise my fingers in a cross and like back away slowly.
I don't even know what a shingles vaccine is. I'm just saying.
Okay. I am too vain to avoid that.
Like I got the shingles vaccine because my, well, we had a family member who got shingles. She got it in her eye and then at the tip of her nose and she, she got scarred from it.
It was all, I was, I'm too vain, Tucker. You know, you know, I'm all Maha all the way, but it's not going to stop my Botox and my makeup and my hairspray.
And we, we could go on. Maybe I'm not Maha.
I actually come to think of it. We're honest.
We all do what we can. Which is what I love.
You're an honest person. That's the only thing we should be shooting for is honesty, I think.
Well, I'm honestly very happy to see you. Thanks for coming on.
All the best. See you soon, I hope.
Great to see you. Thank you.
See ya. Ah, the best.
Tucker Carlson, everybody. Check out his show.
I'm sure you have already. But of of course he's crushing it.
And just one of the most important voices in the American conversation today. Thank God for him.
Um, up next, I mentioned it with Tucker. It is fentanyl awareness day.
And there are some facts I saw in this documentary that our next guests are going to talk to you about that I had no clue about. And I've covered this kind of story for many, many years.
And honestly, there was one particular moment, believe it or not, where I thought to myself, the rehabilitation of Vivek Ramaswamy, who got pummeled on making this point, and he was right. That's next.
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I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM. It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today.
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Offer details apply. Today, as we mentioned, is National Fentanyl Awareness Day.
And this is a real one. Honestly, this is not one of those made up things where it's like, whatever, I don't know what this is.
I don't have time. This, we do have to pause and think about to remember those who have been lost, but think about the solutions to this problem so we can prevent these unnecessary mass deaths of our young people.
It is a true crisis in this country. Fentanyl overdose is the leading cause of death in Americans ages 18 to 45.
I mean, that's the vast swath of living that we do, 18 to 45. You're young, you're vibrant, you have it all in front of you at that age, and it's the leading cause of death right now.
This issue cuts close to the bone for me personally. As I've shared with you before, my sister had an opioid problem through no fault of her own.

Honestly, she was prescribed this stuff by doctors back in the era where the doctors were saying to patients,

it's not addictive, which is not the same thing as fentanyl.

Fentanyl is far more dangerous.

Frankly, it's more lethal, but it's a similar road.

And then my dear friend, Eric Bolling,

who you guys know from Fox News

and who's been on this program many, many times,

lost his beautiful son, Eric Chase,

right after he went off to college

from a pill that he thought was a Xanax

that was laced with fentanyl,

which is extremely common.

And Eric, on one of our very first episodes where

we didn't even have video, it was audio only, spoke to what happened. Come home from a restaurant.
I'm sorry, love. I can feel it.
That's right.

So we get the call that he had taken what he felt was a Xanax that he bought on campus. And it was laced with fentanyl that he didn't know.
He passed. That's awful.
It's the story for too many young Americans and their devastated families who are left to try to pick up the pieces and forge on. This is why we are featuring today a new documentary called Fentanyl, Death Incorporated.
It's only an hour long and it's so worth your time. It's shining the light on just how dire and far-reaching the fentanyl crisis in America really is.
Here's a bit from it. Watch.
This is fentanyl. This is your brain on fentanyl.
This is your friend's brain who is doing fentanyl with you. This is the guy down the street also doing fentanyl.
These are your kids who thought they were taking a Percocet they got from a friend who got it off the internet, but the pill was laced with fentanyl. Now they're unconscious and unresponsive.
This is the Mexican cartels. This is the Mexican cartels working with Chinese chemical companies to make pills by the millions, destabilizing the border to traffic enough fentanyl to kill the entire population of a country many times over.
This is the ports of British Columbia, where chemicals to make fentanyl are smuggled in by the tonnage, and Canadian super labs are producing fentanyl to export to countries around the world. These are gangs and drug dealers near you haphazardly mixing fentanyl powder with other chemicals like xylozine, which is a horse tranquilizer, causing the user's skin to fall off.
But hey, at least the high lasts longer. Joining me now, Dr.
Robert Marbitt, producer of the documentary, along with Billy Baldwin, actor and narrator of the documentary. Guys, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for being here. It's such a heavy subject and it's such an important one.
And I could not believe the numbers. Can I just start with this? Dr.
Marbert, I'll start with you. The, the problem you showed about 28 minutes in the documentary.
We all think about the Southern border. All our focus is on the Southern border.
And I mentioned in the tease how Vivek Ramaswamy was right about something. Cause at a presidential debate, he said the Northern border.
And he said, we need to watch the northern border because of fentanyl. And people mocked him because it was like the northern border.
But you guys make the point in this documentary. It's actually also the east coast and the west coast.
It's the entire border that is being attacked by bad actors trying to flood our country with this poison. We have a problem with all of our borders, but a lot of people forget the U.S.-Canadian border is the longest land border between any two countries in the world.
So it's not just blame to Maine. It's also the western frontier of Canada and the eastern side of Alaska.
We have porous borders or have had porous borders all around. And it's not just the southwest borders, the northern border.
And it's our ports of entry, especially on the waterways. Exactly.
So don't think for one second, just because we're in better control of the southern border right now, that this problem is under control. It's not.
And one of the things you learn from the documentary, Billy, is that it doesn't take much at all. It's like a grain of salt that can make its way into a pill you thought was like an Eric Bolling's son's case, a Xanax or like a Percocet or something that young people in particular might be taking just quote to take the edge off or just maybe to get a temporary high.
It only takes a minuscule amount to kill. Well, first of all, thank you so much, Megan, for having me.
And I know Eric indirectly through some college buddies of mine on Wall Street. And I'm getting chills and a little bit clumped just hearing him.
His son didn't die in vain. And the work that's going on right now, the loss of his son will save thousands and thousands of lives moving forward because we have programs that are working.
We do have solutions. There is hope.
But right now we have 4.2% of the world's population. We consume 38% of the world's fentanyl.
We have 66% of the global deaths from fentanyl. A sugar packet, a sweet and low packet has enough fentanyl in it to kill 500 people in a sugar packet you get in your coffee in the morning.
More people have died from fentanyl since 2019 in four and a half years than every casualty we've taken in World War II, Vietnam, Korea, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, Kosovo, every casualty we've had. We had 58,000 plus die in the 15-year campaign in Vietnam, 58,000 plus.
We had 100,000 die last year alone. We had double Vietnam in one year.
And this sounds like I'll say many controversial things that will probably make you very happy, Megan, with my position on this issue. But it's kind of a blessing.
This is a hard thing to say, but it's a blessing that it's not just happening in super uneducated, poor Appalachian families or in Compton and in Watts. The founder of YouTube, who's a multibillionaire, her son was at Berkeley a year and a half ago, 18-year-old freshman, same exact thing happened.
In our documentary, you have a woman who said her girlfriend never did drugs. She woke up one day, had a couple of glasses of champagne at a sorority party or something, had a little bit of a hangover.
They said, here, take this. This will make your hangover go away.
She took it. She went back to bed to sleep off her hangover, never did drugs in her life.
And she never woke up. And it's such a national absolute catastrophe at this point with the numbers that it's got everybody's attention.
On the right, on the left, in the news media, everybody. If you had to look at it, Doc, and say, you know, what's causing this? My takeaway from watching the documentary, again, and it's called fentanyldeathincorporated.com, and it's going to be hitting soon.

I would say it's the Chinese who are providing these precursor ingredients, the Mexican cartels, which then take it the next level and very haphazardly put together a pill that's meant to resemble something that won't hurt you, but could not care less that it will kill you. And then that 38% that Billy just mentioned of Americans who are, these are deaths of despair or decisions of despair to take pills, you know, in a lot of cases, not in all, but to take pills that you don't know the, you know, provenance of, to try to reach for a high on like a minute's notice for getting something from a stranger and taking enormous risks with your life.
Your thoughts? This whole crisis really got going only 15 years ago. This is a real recent deal.
And we have to understand it really starts with, in the United States, with the Purdue Pharma crisis and scandal. Yes, bad actors.
We had millions of people on prescriptions. We had hundreds of thousands addicted.
And when all the lawsuits happened and all the prescriptions stopped getting handed out, doled out, what happened was the Mexican cartels with China backfilled that supply in as quick as 90 days. They're horrible people, horrible actors, but they're incredible entrepreneurs.
And they saw a market that was now not being served, and they came in and backfilled it immediately. And I think, and I went to China for three weeks on the movie, both research and shooting.
And I think in the beginning for China, it was about the money in the very, very beginning. But now they've realized they can make money, not spend any of their own and destabilize their number one adversary while making money.
And so they had this unholy alliance between the Chinese Communist Party and the Mexican cartels. And now it's moved up to Canada.
And now you have the biker gangs in Canada backfilling what the biker gangs, they're starting to backfill what the Mexican cartels were starting to do at the beginning. You know, it's really crazy because Trump has been in the news for the tariff wars.
I mean, for everything, but the tariff wars. And one of the things he was saying about Canada was I want them to crack down on the fentanyl crisis.
And I have to admit, a lot of people just kind of laughed at him. It's like Canada is not the problem.
Hello, it's Mexico. But it wasn't until I saw your film that I was like, oh my God, actually, Canada is a huge part of the problem, Billy, because these cartels got smart and they realize, especially under Trump now, that the southern border is going to be more difficult.
And because we're so close with Canada, we've kept that much more porous. Canada is not only a problem for America.
Canada is a problem for Canada. Vancouver is a war zone right now.
Vancouver looks like Portland. I mean, it's really, really, really getting bad up there.
And you have to remember this border is, as Dr. Marvitt said, is the longest land border between two countries in the world.
Plus we have the U.S. border to the north, not including Alaska.
And we have patrols that are literally in kayaks, on ATVs, on mountain bikes, and they can't cover it all. Many of the people on the northern border that are working for border patrol are processing people being deported on the southern border.
They're doing paperwork. The northern patrol is doing the paperwork for people that are guarding the border in the south.
So we need to border. We need to beefing up the northern border.
And as you said, this is not going to be addressed only on the supply side.

the Mexican president, the current Mexican president and previous Mexican president will tell you we can take out one or two cartels and five or six will grow back as long as the demand

is there. And if we're 4% of the world's population consuming nearly 40 percent of this drug and the profit is there if you take care of one cartel someone else is going to come in from the gulf of mexico or they're going to come in from cape patarus or they're going to come in from on a kayak i mean right now as you saw in the documentary there is a park in b called Peace Arch Park.
And the beauty of our relationship with Canada is they want people to walk through the arch of the park and go to the other side of the border and put down a blanket and have a barbecue, not have a barbecue, have a picnic there. and that's the beauty of our open border.
Well, guess what? People are coming to that border with a backpack on.

They walk across the border.

They get in an Uber.

They go to Spokane or Seattle or Portland

with 5,000 hits of fentanyl. And that's how it's getting across the border through Peace Arch Park.

And the film documents also at the southern border how they are very clever, the cartels. They will intentionally send people to sneak across the border, which they know will attract the Border Patrol, and they know exactly how many border patrol agents there they are to this area over here on the left, leaving open the area on the right and relatively unpatrolled.
And that's where they'll send across the carriers with the fentanyl because the whole thing is a decoy to really get the drugs across the border and into the country. That's much more lucrative for them than just, you know, sending whatever, getting paid to get people into the country illegally.
So it's extremely sophisticated. And not only we didn't even talk about yet, the cargo ships that come in, huge, huge cargo ships.
We check less than 1% of these. I think it's even lower than that.
And many of them have boxes and boxes of this stuff. So we're just, it's coming in from all angles.
And doc, you go through in the film, how this thing originated, how it came about, because it like wasn't a thing in the recent past. It was, it's a relatively new phenomenon.
And also just for those listening at home, the fact that Narcan will not save you from a fentanyl overdose. I think most people think it can.
That's that drug they want you to have around in case somebody ODs at a frat party or whatever. Narcan will not be of any use to you if somebody ODs on this drug.
And what we're starting to see now is fentanyl is getting mixed with so many different things, like horse tranquilizer, even meth. And so you have a high and a downer at the same thing, and it's really wreaking havoc on your heart.
And what we have to think about is things like Narcan are purely a short-term fix, and it will not fix the long run. It will not fix the intermediate.
And unless we start thinking about treatment and recovery and not getting addicted in the first place, Narcan will just postpone the death to another day unless you start getting the treatment and the recovery going. And in the United States, we have really made it easy to get high and hard to get treatment rather than making it easy to get treatment and hard to get high.
That's one of the stunning things. Bill, you watch this film and we've covered it as a new show.
City after city has provided like clean needles or even a nurse who will be with you when you inject your drug or take your drug to make sure you don't die. And you make the point over and over.
You can find that very easily in the United States, finding treatment and rehabilitary systems or spots much, much harder. And if you do find a place that that's like a drug rehab, that really works, they tend to be exorbitantly priced.
Most people can't afford them. It's just incredibly hard to get help.
Yeah, I think the left policies over the last 15 years of no harm and low harm were very, very well intended. They haven't produced the results that they had hoped.
They have to course correct. Ironically, the providing a safe place to get high was not a left policy.

That was the police department that didn't want to spread their resources out over many, many different places, say, in Portland or in Spokane or in Sacramento. And they wanted to provide this so they can monitor it and control and make sure they were keeping people alive.
That was a policing tactic. But low bar and no bar is a big problem because they, in California and in Portland and Seattle, they were talking about providing housing.
Well, it's great when you take a mentally ill addict who's homeless and provide housing. You've checked one box.
They're no longer homeless, but they're still mentally ill and they're still addicted to fentanyl. So, you know, it leads us to when I have this conversation and I say, it's going to require the kind of services that Dr.
Marbitt's providing for his Haven of Hope in San Antonio that services 2,700 people with a success rate of over 70%, getting people on their feet, off, out of the system, off the services, totally self-sufficient, totally independent. And when I talk about 360 degree universal care, they're like, whoa, that sounds incredibly expensive.
Who's going to pay for that? And I say, you're already paying too much for not enough results. Right now, you call 911.
Fire department, police department, sheriffs, paramedics respond. You pay.
They go to the emergency room. You pay.
They get admitted. You pay.
They go into the legal system, judges, lawyers, courtrooms. You pay.
They get incarcerated. You pay.
Let's go downtown. Main Street.
We were in Seattle. This gentleman, 21-year-old kid, blessing, was overdosing.
They hit him with Narcan, revived him. They hit him with paddles, got his heart started again.
He vomited. He turned around and said to the fire department, get lost.
I don't want your help. That was right in front of the wharf in Seattle, the original Starbucks store.
And he was laying on the ground in front of the Nike store. You have to say, how is that affecting tourism, commerce, small business administration, property values?

They're all declining in northwestern cities, and we have to course correct. We have to provide these universal services, 360 services, because you're already paying too much to not get enough results.
and Marvin maybe you want to jump in here with some of the results of the care that's going on

at Johns Hopkins and with CityGate and with you at Haven for Hope. Think about this case with Blessing that Billy and I saw.
We had four firemen arrive. We had two EMS arrive.
We had two sheriff people arrive. We had three local downtown ambassadors arrived.
These are all taxpayer-funded people. And they worked on them, got them alive enough, and then he refused treatment.
He refused going. And so that's why places like John Hopkins in Baltimore has a program with the Helping Up mission, and they're working together.
So you have a secular university and a faith-based Christian mission working together, and they're having phenomenal success. So we know how to do this, and we know how to do it right, but it takes time.
You're not going to take somebody who's been addicted to drugs for 20 years and do it in a 28-day program or a 14-day program. You need multiple months.
But in the end, it's much more cost-effective to get success in real treatment and real recovery than the short-term expenses of Band-Aids that are the police department, the fire department, emergency room, emergency department and the court systems. Let me ask you this, Doc.
I don't understand totally because people can take fentanyl without dying. I remember, you know, 15 years ago, I think my mom had a back surgery and they gave her a fentanyl lollipop.
And this is before that word meant anything to anybody. You know, I was like, what's that? But boy, she was flying high.
And so it's not like if you just touch fentanyl or taste fentanyl, you'll die. But what's happening? Like, is it corrupted fentanyl that's going into these pills? Like, because I use the term OD on fentanyl, which that's not exactly it.
Like just a small, tiny amount of one time with fentanyl can kill you. There's a huge difference between medical grade fentanyl, like a cancer patch for stage three, stage four cancer patients, or the lollipop post-surgery, or candidly, medical fentanyl has made heart surgery possible.
I mean, it's perfect because it slows your heart rate down, it slows your breathing down. So fentanyl for open heart surgery is critical.
But the difference is when you're in those situations, they're highly regulated and the dosing is very, very precise and done with precision. And when you're in a medical situation, you have multiple people monitoring you.
The problem with street-level fentanyl, illicit fentanyl that's on the street, there is no regulation. And so they make this batch not in a white-glove lab.
It's done in a jungle, a back alley, a burnout bus. And you don't know what you're getting.
It's a mix. It's not equal at the same time.
You might get part of the batch that has a lot of fentanyl and the other part has none of it. And so street level illicit fentanyl is totally different than the fentanyl you get in a hospital.
Megan, can I jump in or something? And then on top of that, they mislabel it. Yeah, go ahead, Billy.
You know, getting back to this kid, Blessing, he was gone. He was flatlined.
They revived him. He vomited and turned over and said, I refuse your help.
And the reason they do this is not just because the high is so good. They do this because the way they feel emotionally, psychologically, and physically, when they're not on the drug is so terrifying.
It's so painful to them that they would rather risk their life. We were speaking to the fire department in Spokane, and they had a 911 call for the same person six times in one day.
And this leads me to something that's radical that I'm going to say that doesn't sound very left because they talk about the freedom, the freedom, the freedom. Someone does have the freedom to get high.
Someone does have the freedom to be homeless. Someone has the freedom to do drugs.
And if they overdose and they die, that is free. But not when it costs you and me, the taxpayers, money.
That's not freedom for us to have to pay for the emergency room and for incarceration and for all the different ways in which this is affecting our lives. So I've done conservatorships before.
A definition of a conservatorship is a threat to your life and others, or you harm yourself or others. Clearly, this kid blessing was a threat to himself and others overdosing and flatlining on the street.
Clearly, he was a harm to himself and others. I am suggesting,'m not an expert i want to leave it to the professionals the paramedics the lawyers the doctors all of those people that have their the non-profits that have their sleeves rolled up and they're getting their hands dirty in literally in the encampments like i did for a long time but the encampments in the shelters i want to give them the ability to take conservatorship out of the courts.
And if Blessing says, no, I'm not going, and a fireman and a paramedic and a sheriff or a cop or a nonprofit say, you're going. And that person is taken against their will because they are clearly a threat to themselves and others, and they have clearly harmed themselves.
And if you put it in the court system, it's a ticking clock, it's a ticking bomb where you're waiting for them to potentially harm somebody else. So I don't know how long they should be held.
But a 72-hour hold is probably not long enough from what I've learned. So if they're held five, seven, ten days, and they can get to a more detox, clear-headed position where they say, you're right, I do need the services, I do need the help, I'll go into a three or four-month program.
Or if they say, no, I want to go back on the streets, at least they've done it from a more sober, clear-headed perspective. And I'm wondering if we should take the conservatorships as a pilot program, take it away from the judges and the lawyers in the courtrooms, and put it in the hands of people that know far better than they do.
That makes perfect sense because you point out the documentary that you actually can't detox off of fentanyl on your own. You actually must have medical assistance there, doc.
So why wouldn't we, why would we be taking the word of an active addict to fentanyl for anything on the street? Why wouldn't there be a mandatory? No, you're going into mandatory detox where for five to seven days, whatever the appropriate period is, we will get you off this drug and then we can talk about what comes next. We have some people from Seattle in our documentary who address this.
They say if you were to go and go on a bridge and say you're going to commit suicide and get ready to jump and somebody calls 911 or you get one of those bridge phones that they call, the police come, they don't just sit there and take you off the bridge and say, well, are you okay? You promised not to jump. We'll leave you right there and then roll on.
They take you there. Why is that not different with fentanyl? Because we know fentanyl is so deadly now.
You will not meet somebody who is a fentanyl addict that's been on fentanyl for over 18 months. Most addicts die within eight or nine months.
A few will make it out to 18 months. So why would we not treat you like a jumper? Why wouldn't we treat you like we need to take you in? We need medical detox because that's the only way you're going to get down.
And after you go, and we're not talking years of holding, we're talking five, six, seven, eight, nine days, get past that medical recovery, and then have an honest conversation, a clear-headed

conversation about what do we need to do for treatment and recovery? Because Billy and I've gone in multiple cities around this country with police departments, and we roll up on these fentanyl desks. They're literally dead on the street, and they get them recovered, They get them back, and they refuse to go in and treatment.

And they're not in a, in a place mentally to make a clean headed decision to say, I want to go in. You point out in the film, some of these people have taken a fentanyl version that's mixed with this horse tranquilizer, which literally makes their skin

peel off of their bodies. And you show pictures of people this is happening to.
This is not a

person who is in a position to make the right decisions for his wellness. But back to the

other issue too, I wanted to ask you this, Billy. When I was at NBC, I interviewed this family,

the Savage family, and they had, I think four boys and the two oldest boys were 18 and 19. And they did not OD on fentanyl, but they came back from college.
The one came back from college. I think the other was a senior in high school.
She waited up for them. They got home at midnight and unbeknownst to her, they had prior to leaving this party, both taken a pill that they thought was like a Xanax or something like that.
And it was an opiate, an opioid of some kind. And it killed them both.
And this poor mom woke up the next morning thinking her kids were safe asleep. She had seen them home from the party only to wake up the next morning to find out her 18 and 19 year old boys.
I know it's horrific. But one of the things she said to me was I'm a nurse and her, her husband was there too.
And they said, we talked to our boys about drugs, about all the dangers. You know, we were aware of the dangers, but we hadn't thought about this.
Like a friend gives you a pill at a party and you should not trust it. Or you you're at a friend's house and they take a bottle out of their mom's medicine cabinet.
Yeah. I, I, I, my friends laugh when I say this, cause I say to my children all the time, when I was in college, someone would walk up and you'd, I went to Binghamton and you'd have people from Albany and from Cornell and from Syracuse come to visit for the weekend and somebody would walk up that was your buddy but their friends from Syracuse and Albany would walk with somebody would light up a joint and say yo you want to hit they start passing it around I said to my my children those days are over you literally put your drink down and you go to the bathroom you come back and the drink's still there throw it out you'll make yourself another drink those days are over and when i have this sort of bring your own stash mentality my kids are like oh great parenting they're baldwin great parenting but i know i know the kids are gonna do some of this that they're gonna have they're in college my kids go to usc they're gonna they're gonna uh have a beer they're gonna have a cocktail they a tequila.
They're going to have a joint. You just have to be very, very careful.
Another point I wanted to touch upon, which I think is important, Megan, is the criminalization of this. Generations ago, my father's generation, when people got in trouble, judges would say, I'm going to give you a choice.
You've got five years in jail or you've got five years in the Army. You choose.
We depend on the type of crime, all sorts of variables, but they gave them a choice to either go to prison or to go into the service to rehabilitate. Turned a lot of lives around.
We have to raise this from a misdemeanor to a felony. We have to get a lot of this into drug court, and we have to say to a lot of these people, you're going to prison for two years, not just dealers, repeat offenders that are users.
You're going to prison for two years, or you're going to a government paid for facility. The government will pay for it.
You choose six months in rehab or two years in prison. You're going to one or the other.
You're not going back out on the street. They have to change the legality of this.
By the way, what years were you at Binghamton? Can I ask that? 81 to 85. Oh, yeah.
You were a little before my time, but I was at Syracuse. I was at Syracuse at 88 to 92.
My mother, my father, and all four of my grandparents graduated from Syracuse. Oh, nice.
Go orange. All right.
Well, so I was not offered a joint by you, uh, cause we weren't in the same place at the same time. Let's not pretend nobody ever offered you a joint.
Okay. Cause I know that my audience knows I've never tried a drug.
I mean, I've done alcohol, but that's it. No drugs.
I don't know. I'm sort of a Pollyanna, I guess, in that lane, but doc, I mean, even more so now, I mean, I'll talk to my kids about this too.
Like you can't take a pill. You can't take a thing.
You think you're not taking fentanyl. You think you're taking like a muscle relaxant or something to take the edge off before a big exam.
What you're really taking is your life in your hands. And you had Tom Wolf there in the bumper right up in the front there.
70% of all street level drugs now have some part of fentanyl in it. And when you're talking about two grains of salt equivalent can kill anybody, or one grain of rice can kill 15 people of equivalent of fentanyl.
So we have to realize how potent these drugs are, especially fentanyl. And the idea that we legalize fentanyl across large, many states across the country legalized fentanyl, either by statute and said we're no longer going to prosecute or by prosecutors choosing not to prosecute.
The good news is even in states like California, this was sort of lost in the presidential election, but the voters of California voted to override the California legislature and say, we're now going to start recriminalizing high-end and high-volume, really potent drugs and high-volume drugs. And the citizens of California overrode their legislature two to one, saying, we want to get back and recriminalize this.
This idea of misdemeanor or saying we're never going to prosecute for something as powerful as fentanyl, just, it was nutty. I know it may have been well-intended, but it did not work.
All right. So last but not least, fentanyldeathincorporated.com.
But when they go there, the movie's not yet posted. When is it actually going to be posted? Because now they're going to want to watch it.
It'll be coming out. Warner Brothers is our partner in this project, and they'll be able to see it streaming this coming summer, and Warner Brothers will be pushing it out on multiple platforms.
Okay, well, we'll give it another push when it hits. You guys let us know.
This is too important, and I really appreciate you doing this. I'll just say this before you go, to you in particular, Billy.
We've had some actors who get behind a cause of one sort or another, and they won't come on the show because they think I'm a conservative or my audience is more conservative. And I find it just shameful because conservatives have kids too, and they have addiction problems too.
And I really respect the fact that I'm sure we disagree on virtually all matters political, but that you came here anyway, out of respect to my audience. Well, I'm thrilled that you had me.
I'll come back again. And you should know that Marbitt and I thought we would disagree on everything.
And we were making a scripted feature on homelessness called No Address. And we sat in the lobby after on the set and in the lobby.
And all we did was discuss issue after issue after issue, where we thought we were on opposite ends of the spectrum. and we realized that 80% of it we agree on, 10% is negotiable, and 10% we'll never agree on.
And we live in this world where we're being driven apart, where we have more in common, there's more consensus, there's more agreement than people realize on controversial issues. Yeah, as you proved here today.
Thank you. Easy to work on mental health, easy to work on homelessness, mental health and fentanyl, trickier to work on the Second Amendment or campaign finance reform or something like that.
But you'd be surprised how much we have in common on that issue, Megan. Well, and one day we have to talk about the fact that you went to high school with the accused Long Island serial killer.
Seventh grade through twelfth grade. Yes.
Rex Hewerman was I was class president. He'd see me and say, how are you doing, Billy Rex? What's going on? We were in classes together.
My lifeguard stand at Tobey Beach was 500 feet from that that burial in Gilgo. Oh, my God.
Did he seem God. Yeah.
Yeah. He was sort of ran with a group of kids that didn't, they were like AV squad guys.
They were like tech geeks before the internet. Yeah.
Yeah. He ran with a group of guys like that.
Very bright. And yeah.
I got to just ask you, like when you heard the story, did your jaw drop? Were you like, what?

Yeah, it's funny.

One of my friends from Mass People sent this to me and goes, you're not going to believe this breaking story.

And I put out a tweet that said, I just woke up this morning to find out that Rex Hewerman, the Gilgo Beach killer, was my, not my friend or my buddy or anything, but my classmate that I knew for six years.

And that got a lot of interest.

People were reaching.

It was very stunning because people said, did you see it coming? And I absolutely did not see it coming. Absolutely did not see that.
He wasn't a super loner. He wasn't a person that you would ever suspect it was like, you know, harming animals in his backyard or in his bedroom.
Nothing like that. Nothing like that.
Some of his best friends were my neighbors where I grew up in Massapequa. And there were guys that they did get bullied a little bit.
Some of those guys, but I don't know where it all went off the rails and where it went wrong. I don't know.
Tragic. You never know.
Guys, thank you again so much. Again, I want to tell the audience, go check it out.
Fentanyldeathincorporated.com and think about what we talked about today. Have that tough

conversation with your kids, even if you think you've already had it and with your friends and

with everybody you possibly can because too many people think they know and they don't. All the

best to you guys. God bless.
You too. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.
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