Tucker Carlson on Michelle Obama, Newsom and AOC, and Fentanyl Crisis in America, with Billy Baldwin and Dr. Robert Marbut | Ep. 1060

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Speaker 5 Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at Noon East.

Speaker 5 Hey, everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show.
Today, officially marking President Trump's 100th day in office, what a whirlwind.

Speaker 5 The White House is branding at 100 Days of Promises Made, Promises Kept, with the President's biggest accomplishments centered on immigration and the border and how.

Speaker 5 Also, Michelle Obama is once again out there whining about what a victim she is.

Speaker 5 This time, she's trying to suggest that her daughters could be arrested in the middle of the night and deported along with some random illegals. At least, that's how I read her comments.

Speaker 5 That seems like as good a place as any to kick off the show as we're joined today. By Tucker Carlson.

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Speaker 5 Great to see you, Tucker. How are you?

Speaker 6 You're making me laugh, Megan. I hadn't read that.

Speaker 6 I'm grateful to be here. And Michelle Obama, you go to Princeton for free,

Speaker 6 and you're just, by the way, I can't imagine that she qualified on the merits to go to Princeton, but you have everything handed to you for free and you're just enraged at the country.

Speaker 6 There's like a deep lesson here, actually. Yes.

Speaker 5 And it's just let me play the soundbite because it's even worse than you're imagining.

Speaker 5 Like, yeah, she went on to this guy, Jay Shetty's podcast, and he asked her something about her greatest fear as of late. And here's what she said:

Speaker 7 this current climate for me, it's, you know, what's happening to immigrants. You know, so it's, it's not the fear for myself anymore.
I drive around in a four-car motorcade with a police escort.

Speaker 7 I'm Michelle Obama. I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognizable.
So my fears are for what I know is happening out there in streets all over the city.

Speaker 7 And now that we have leadership that is sort of indiscriminately determining who belongs and who doesn't.

Speaker 7 And we know that those decisions aren't being made with courts and with due process and, you know, that it's being made like this cop that pulled my brother over when he was 12.

Speaker 7 You don't look like somebody that belongs. You know, I can determine just by looking at you that you're, you know, you're a good person or you're not a good person.

Speaker 7 And knowing that there's so much bias and so much racism and so much ignorance that fuels those kind of choices, I worry for people of color all over this country.

Speaker 7 And I don't know that we will have the advocates to protect everybody. And that makes me, that frightens me.

Speaker 7 It keeps me up at night. How do you feel comfortable going to work, going to school, when you know that there could be people out here judging you and who could upend your life in a second?

Speaker 7 That, you know, that, that, that's who I worry for right now.

Speaker 5 There's so much in there, Tucker. I'll let you take a swing at it first.

Speaker 6 Well, I mean, my first response is it feels so antique. It feels so 2017.
It's like literally nobody cares. Nobody cares at all.
All of those talking points, people of color under attack.

Speaker 6 No, they're not. They're coming here by the millions because this is the safest country for everybody, no matter what your color is, or it was in any case.

Speaker 6 So like, that's just so

Speaker 6 old-fashioned. I mean, it's really like you expect her to say, let me fax you my thoughts on this.
Cause it's just like, she's so out of it.

Speaker 6 The second thing is that, like, we always beat up on, you know, rich white ladies because they're the most disruptive force in America, but that's unfair. It's not, it's not about color.

Speaker 6 It's there's something about the people with the most

Speaker 6 in our country that's really poisonous. They're the unhappiest, they're the most restless, they're the most self-involved, they're the least generous, they're the most annoying.

Speaker 6 And it's not just a gender thing, it's men too. But there's something about America at this moment where the unhappiest people are also the most privileged.

Speaker 6 And I think it does tell you something deep about accumulating money or worshiping money. It doesn't fill the empty space at all.

Speaker 6 It doesn't, you know, Larry Fink is a miserable person in real life, despite having billions of dollars.

Speaker 6 And of course, you know, personally, and I do too, a lot of deeply unhappy billionaires way more unhappy than the guy fixing your air conditioning. So there is like,

Speaker 6 it's a theological principle that I think is worth saying out loud, worshiping money, worshiping power, organizing your life so you get more of both does not give you peace or happiness.

Speaker 6 In fact, it seems to produce the opposite. People like Michelle Obama, who's drowning in Lake Me.

Speaker 6 I mean, Michelle Obama is literally going down for the third time into this pool of self-involvement, and you just, you don't think she's going to come up again.

Speaker 6 Like she's dying of affluence, privilege, and self-obsession, obviously.

Speaker 5 Everything she says is negative. We've been watching clips from her podcast over the past couple of

Speaker 6 weeks.

Speaker 5 Everything she says is negative.

Speaker 5 I mean, you would never know you are hearing from a woman who is first lady for eight years, has become probably a billionaire by this point, is out on David Geffen's yacht every other summer, her estate in Martha's Vineyard, her daughters who went to these Tony schools.

Speaker 5 You would think you were listening to somebody basically like another, like the wife of a George Floyd. And she's never gotten over.
Right. Right.
Whatever grievance she had growing up.

Speaker 5 I love how the soundbite begins.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 5 It's not that fear from myself. I drive around in a four-car motorcade with a police escort.

Speaker 6 I'm Michelle Obama.

Speaker 6 Unbelievable, right?

Speaker 5 Who talks about themselves that way? Even if you are Michelle Obama, Barack Obama doesn't talk about himself that way. It's just like the hubris.

Speaker 5 And then this is the part that jumped out to me more than any other.

Speaker 5 I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognizable.

Speaker 5 In other words, she's worried that as mixed-race girls, they're going to get picked up like Kilmar Obrego Garcia, an MS-13 gang member, and whisked off to El Salvador.

Speaker 5 That is what she's saying, Tucker. And you know what? I think she is lying there at night thinking that.
That's what she thinks of America.

Speaker 6 She is.

Speaker 6 Of course. And, but she's just so miserable and it's obvious and always has been.
And I do think maybe another, so you look at someone like that and you're like, okay, what are the lessons for me?

Speaker 6 You know, you look at other people's lives and they either go up or down, they succeed or they fail. And you try to take important lessons for yourself in your own life.

Speaker 6 And one of the lessons that I've always thought Michelle Obama's life presented to the rest of us is: take some time to focus on your marriage.

Speaker 6 If you're happy in your marriage, you know, you can feel it, you can smell it. You know, you're emanating a kind of peace of tranquility.

Speaker 6 You know, you're going home to a spiritual fortress, you know what I mean, with your spouse.

Speaker 6 And people who have deeply unhappy marriages and all of it, you know, everyone's been through periods of unhappiness, and you know, there's nothing more destabilizing than that.

Speaker 6 And you do feel like like for the, the grasping, climbing, you know, acquiring class, of which he's a charter member, like there's no time to focus on this one person in your own home or maybe even your own children.

Speaker 6 Like they're all about, you know, I want to deal with Netflix and I want a Kennedy Center Honors Award and me, me, me, me, me, me, me. And they sort of miss the point, which is.

Speaker 6 In a normal life, your marriage is the core of everything. A happy marriage produces happy people and happy children.
And I just don't think she spent a lot of time on that.

Speaker 6 I mean, she really dislikes her husband. Super obvious.
I'm not just saying that to be catty.

Speaker 6 I feel, I think, I'm trying to feel compassion for her, but her hostility toward the guy is like unbelievable. And it's been everything she says is negative

Speaker 6 about him. I mean, how are she tweeting about each other?

Speaker 5 I can't even think of one negative comment you've ever made about Susie. I almost never say negative things about Doug.

Speaker 5 Yeah, exactly. It's not like they're perfect.
It's just like when I think about him, I don't immediately go to whatever's negative. I go to what's positive and what I love about him.

Speaker 5 And And there's a ton of people who are going to be able to do that.

Speaker 6 Actually, last time I was talking,

Speaker 6 you said,

Speaker 6 you were

Speaker 6 off camera telling me how great Doug is. I mean, that's just a fact.
I remember it really vividly. In fact, I told my wife about it.

Speaker 6 No,

Speaker 6 those are the markers of actual success. Is your marriage happy? Are your children thriving? Are your relationships solid? Like the people around you in your orbit.

Speaker 6 And you feel like in her case, boy, the answer is no. But it's not just her.
I mean, she's like a freak show and it's easy to make fun of her and I enjoy it.

Speaker 6 But I do think it's a whole class of people who are afflicted with the same kind of restlessness and rage and emptiness. And they're the ones wrecking our society.
It's not the people at the bottom.

Speaker 6 It's the people at the top. And they have gone way off the rails.
And she's like a perfect example of it, in my opinion.

Speaker 5 Well, you know, this is a good lead into Governor Pritzker of Illinois.

Speaker 6 I mean, talk about excesses, right?

Speaker 5 All the seven sins are walking all over him.

Speaker 6 You just take a look at him. It's like you can see multiple of them.

Speaker 5 And he's out there now. I mean, I guess he fancies himself a contender for 28 and has decided to ratchet up the rhetoric.

Speaker 5 It wasn't enough for him to try to trans all of our children, he and his weird family.

Speaker 5 But this is his latest messaging as he went through New Hampshire this past Sunday, Shot 12.

Speaker 8 Never before in my life have I called for mass protests, for mobilization, for disruption, but I am now.

Speaker 8 These Republicans cannot know a moment of peace.

Speaker 8 They have to understand that we will fight their cruelty with every megaphone and microphone that we have. We must castigate them on the soapbox and then punish them at the ballot box.

Speaker 5 I mean, he's looking at us like we're a couple of Twinkies. I'm afraid.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 6 sorry, it took me a second.

Speaker 6 I mean, there's a guy, there's another man in misery, you know what I mean?

Speaker 6 An inherited money person who has never achieved anything and who is inflicting his own personal torment on the rest of us. But he says, I've never called for disruption.

Speaker 6 It does raise the other question I always have about the people running everything, which is what have you built? What have you created? What have you improved? I mean, it is a binary.

Speaker 6 We're either in, you know, this life on this planet, making things better or making them worse, building or destroying. What have you done for the state of Illinois, which is bankrupt?

Speaker 6 There's been an exodus of normal people, people with jobs, people with families. They're on the west coast of Florida right now.
Like that state is wrecked. It's not all his fault, of course.

Speaker 6 But why don't you tell me three things you've done to improve Illinois? There aren't any. So for him to say, I've never called for disruption before, it's like, that's actually all you've done.

Speaker 6 All you've done is advocated for the destruction of children and families through the transient stuff, through advocate for the destruction of your state through, you know, your total mismanage of it.

Speaker 6 It's like, how could someone like that or Gavin Newsom or anyone else with a track record, an unbroken record of destruction, with a straight face say, hey, give me a bigger job?

Speaker 6 Like, I just think the whole thing is deranged. We should hire on the basis of achievement.

Speaker 6 We should reward people on the basis of achievement across the board, whether it's getting into Princeton, whether it's becoming president.

Speaker 6 Like if you have no record of achievement, I'm sorry, we're not going to consider you, period.

Speaker 5 What do you make of what Gavin Newsom is doing right now with this podcast? Because I've said, I don't, I'm against conservatives going on his podcast because I think it's helping him train for 2028.

Speaker 5 I don't think we should help him.

Speaker 6 I agree. I agree completely.
I didn't think that I know, obviously, I know Gavin Newsom. I text with him occasionally.
I am from the state of California. I'm from originally San Francisco.

Speaker 6 So, and I have relatives who know him. And I, you know, so I'm, I've been fair with Gavin Newsome for a long time.
I know his ex-wife.

Speaker 6 Uh, and I was, have been bothering him for years, like, you should come on my show. And he was kind of open to it.
And then he whips around and he's like, no, you should come on mine.

Speaker 6 I was like, oh, I would love to because I would love to debate him about what he's done to my state.

Speaker 6 And then I watched a parade of people go on, some of whom are good friends of mine, by the way, way, conservatives go on his show. And I realized, and I'm not attacking them at all.
I almost did.

Speaker 6 But then I realized, oh, wait a second, this is like,

Speaker 6 this is not, the point of this is not to have a real conversation or to answer questions. The point of this is to rehabilitate.
And I would say of Gavin, like he's legit smart.

Speaker 6 I don't think there's anything at all at the core other than misery, another deeply, deeply unhappy person who, you know, we should be rooting for him to get his life together,

Speaker 6 but someone who kind of externalizes everything. You know, there's nothing at the center.
And so everything is about the public display.

Speaker 6 A truly wounded, screwed up person, like on a very deep level, not joking, but also a talented person who will say anything, which in politics is an advantage.

Speaker 6 If you will just, if you're willing to say anything, I mean, there's things that you will not say, many of them, because you don't believe them. And maybe, you know, I'll speak for myself.

Speaker 6 Like, there are some times where I've got strong views on something and I'm like, you know, you should just shut up and keep that to yourself because you will just alienate everybody.

Speaker 6 And like, you don't need to express everything that you think. I tell myself that a lot because I have some views that are super unpopular.
Okay.

Speaker 6 But I will never say something that I don't believe. That's got to be the line, but there's no line at all with him, like none.
And so, wow, it's kind of hard to, it's kind of hard.

Speaker 6 You'd be like, you know, Gavin Newsom, you just robbed a liquor store. He's standing there with a gun in his hand, you know, and a fistful of 20s.
And he's like, no, I didn't. You did.

Speaker 6 And you're like, what?

Speaker 6 Did I? It's postmodern. It's very hard to debate someone like that.
You don't, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 So you don't see him as the Dems great white hope from California for 2028.

Speaker 6 He's pretty white. I mean, it's the anti-white party.
Like they hate white people. They've been

Speaker 6 systematically disenfranchising white people from the country they were born in. They say that out loud.
That's what diversity is. It's everybody but white men.
So I'm not whining about it.

Speaker 6 I'm just noticing that.

Speaker 6 Much more comprehensive than Jim Crow ever was.

Speaker 6 And so for the party that did that, that set up this Jim Crow system, anti-white system, to nominate another white guy, I mean, maybe, but I think they'd be much happier with AOC.

Speaker 6 I don't take her that seriously.

Speaker 6 I'm not really sure what I think.

Speaker 6 I think what is likely to happen, yeah, someone's going to come out of nowhere who's got native talent. I continue to believe even in the Democratic Party, you have to have talent to succeed.

Speaker 6 I felt that Bernie Sanders had a lot of talent. I don't agree with him, of course, but I did think he had a lot of talent.
And then it turned out he was a fraud also.

Speaker 6 But someone like Bernie Sanders, I think populist economics is very popular, actually. Conservatives don't want to admit it, but it is popular.

Speaker 6 So someone who comes out and like attacks the credit card companies, attacks the endless war, basically does kind of Trump on the left. That person could easily get elected.
I don't think

Speaker 6 this stuff has a future. Well, the problem with AOC is

Speaker 6 there is a kind of unseriousness about her. I think she's an amazing performer.
I think she's attractive. I think she's different.
I think she's got a ton of talent.

Speaker 6 I'm not, I'm actually not criticizing AOC. I'm complimenting her sincerely.
But I think she's too much about herself.

Speaker 6 And I think that it takes enormous self-discipline to get through a presidential campaign. And I don't know that she has that.
And I also think the Israel thing is tough.

Speaker 6 It's tough for anybody running in that party. You know, a lot of rank and file Democrats are genuinely mad about the Gaza thing.
Donors, obviously, are on a different page.

Speaker 6 So it's a fundamental split in that party. And I'm not exactly sure how that's resolved.
And I'm not sure that she can

Speaker 6 walk that line.

Speaker 5 And who will be on the opposite side? Will it be President Trump for a third term? Because

Speaker 5 he hasn't totally ruled it out, even with his interview he just gave to The Atlantic. He said, oh, you know, that would be a norm shattering, but maybe I'm about the shattering.

Speaker 5 He seems to just be toying with people on this. but

Speaker 5 I think we both think it's probably going to be JD, don't you think?

Speaker 6 Well, I would say with some certainty, as of today, I mean, boy, things are so dynamic. It's like hard even to know where things are going a lot of the time.

Speaker 6 But, you know, if the Republican Party still has standing in the eyes of voters, and I think it will a couple of years from now, J.D. is the...
you know, is the obvious.

Speaker 6 I mean, he's the most articulate explainer, I think, of Donald Trump's ideas. He's the most powerful and effective vice president in my lifetime, for sure.

Speaker 6 And he has managed to do that while remaining completely loyal on the same page as Donald Trump, not undermining him. I mean, that's always the tension between president and vice president.

Speaker 6 You know, the vice president has his own aspirations. And so he's sort of subtly undermining the president.
That has not happened at all. And I don't expect that it will.

Speaker 6 So, yeah, I mean, I think JD is the obvious. I mean, it's certainly not going to be Nikki Haley.
Like, let's be real. Right.

Speaker 5 That was tried and failed. What did you think of the, I haven't spoken to you publicly since then, but what did you think of the scene with JD and Trump and Zelensky in the oval?

Speaker 6 Well, I thought it was amazing. I thought it was amazing.
I mean, I'm frustrated because I think that Zelensky is an enemy of the United States.

Speaker 6 And I think his government has tried to assassinate a number of people.

Speaker 6 I don't think that I know that,

Speaker 6 including some people who are well-known on the conservative side. So I think it's a really, really dark government.

Speaker 6 It's banned the largest Christian denomination in Ukraine that has sold a lot of the weapons that we have sent them to all kinds of dark groups, including Hamas and the Mexican drug cartels.

Speaker 6 Like I think it's a it's an outlaw government that does not represent Ukrainians. He's not an elected president.

Speaker 6 He has no, he has no moral claim to run that country at all. So, you know, I'm always a little distressed when he's treated as a legitimate president, which he's not.

Speaker 6 But, you know, that said, he was in the oval. Like that was not, you know, I didn't have any control over any of that.
I didn't want to be in the oval in the first place.

Speaker 6 Like, hey, why don't you stand for election? And when you win, then we'll treat you like a head of state, but you're not a head of state because he's not. So that's my personal view.

Speaker 6 But given that, I was thrilled to see Donald Trump,

Speaker 6 I think that was genuine peak. Like, we just sent you billions and billions of dollars.
You stole a lot of it. How many houses do you have, Zelensky, by the way? Do you have a house in the Miami?

Speaker 6 Do you have one in France? Like, what, you know, let's, let's actually do an audit of your personal finances and of Butenoff and all the people around you.

Speaker 6 And like, let's find out where the money went. That's never been done.
It's never going to be done because a lot of Americans have gotten rich from it, too.

Speaker 6 As I know, you know, it's a money laundering scheme.

Speaker 6 But with that all in mind, and of course, the president knows all that, for Zelensky to be like, well, you owe me more money or else big problems for you. I mean, I think that just...

Speaker 6 That just exploded Trump's brain. Like, I think he was genuinely outraged.
How dare this guy talk to me? This, you know, dictator of a client state

Speaker 6 talked to me that way. So,

Speaker 6 you know, I hope that U.S. policymakers will keep that in mind going forward.
This guy is not our ally at all.

Speaker 6 He's trashing the United States constantly, constantly, trying to split Europe from the United States. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 6 And there are so many people in the national security state who are so vested in this and who've gotten rich from it that they won't admit it. And the whole system's like on autopilot.

Speaker 6 Like Zelensky runs Ukraine. Ukraine is our ally.
Russia is our enemy. It's like, what? We just waged a three and a half year war against Russia without congressional approval.

Speaker 6 United States has been fighting a war, as we speak, is fighting a war against Russia.

Speaker 6 No American voted for this. Most Americans don't want it.

Speaker 6 Like, why are we fighting Russia again? Why are they our enemy? Because a small group of people hates Russia for reasons that they never say out loud.

Speaker 6 That has a lot to do with the re-emergence of Christianity in Russia. They hate that.
And they've roped the rest of us with our...

Speaker 6 tax dollars into supporting this war that we lost. We lost the war.
And we degraded U.S. authority and military power in the process.
We pushed Russia

Speaker 6 into a permanent alliance with China. It's been a disaster for the United States, and nobody has admitted that, said that out loud, and they haven't even changed course.

Speaker 6 And so it's extremely frustrating to watch.

Speaker 5 So what do you think is going to happen now?

Speaker 5 Trump's messaging just this week and Marco Rubio's messaging this week has changed to be a little bit more, they're still kind of hopeful, but they sound somewhat exasperated.

Speaker 5 Like, look, we're not in this for much longer. If you guys can't work this out, we're out.

Speaker 5 This is your conflict, which basically means Ukraine's effed because we know the Europeans won't step up in the way the United States did. So it's over.

Speaker 5 I mean, it's, I think it's really playing the Trump card on Ukraine.

Speaker 5 Like, you will take the deal under the terms we've said are acceptable, or you're on your own, which means your loss, which has already happened, will be official, pronounced, and actually could get even worse.

Speaker 6 I mean, I think it's really dangerous to do it this way. I think we should have cut off Ukraine day one, forced a settlement of our choosing in conjunction with the Russians, who won.

Speaker 6 So in the end, let's be totally honest, the winner sets the terms. Like, that's just a fact.

Speaker 6 We could try and guide those terms, but we're not in a position of absolute authority in Eastern Europe right now. It's just a fact.
I wish we were, but we're not.

Speaker 6 So, but I do think the longer this goes on, the higher the incentive for Zelensky and the people around him to drag the rest of the world into this, to commit some serious atrocity in Moscow.

Speaker 6 And by the way, I was there. I saw with my own eyes.
They sent a drone in and attacked the Kremlin.

Speaker 6 And of course, the Russians didn't want to admit that because they don't want to admit that their capital city is vulnerable to attack, but that's a fact. I saw it on fire.

Speaker 6 And every Russian I asked denied that it was happening. I was like, wait, there's, look at that.
But that was Ukrainian drone, and there have been a bunch of them. And those are American drones.

Speaker 6 So the United States under Joe Biden attacked the Russian capital. Like, this is so crazy.
And the Russians, for their own, who are not always honest about things, to be honest,

Speaker 6 to be clear, they have downplayed that because there are a bunch of different complicated reasons, but that's all true. And so the Zelensky government has incentive to do more of that.

Speaker 6 And you could really see this thing getting completely out of control. And like, why wouldn't China, North Korea has already sent troops onto the battlefield in Ukraine? Why wouldn't China do that?

Speaker 6 So you could have a scenario where the United States American advisors, we have a million Americans fighting in that war, as you know, they lie about it, but it's true. They're in Ukraine fighting.

Speaker 6 And European troops, NATO troops, and Ukrainian troops are fighting Chinese troops. Well, you know, this could get out of control super fast.
Everyone thinks, oh, I know how this is going to go.

Speaker 6 And like, this is what's going to happen, like some Rube Goldberg setup, and then this is going to happen. That'll happen.
It's like, dude, you have no idea what's going to happen.

Speaker 6 You don't know what you're having for dinner tonight. The future is not under our control at all.
And so anyone who tells you, like, here's how it's going to go is a liar or dumb.

Speaker 6 These are dynamic situations and they they could go in a crazy unanticipated direction. If there's one lesson of history, it's that.
So you want to shut down the fighting as fast as you can.

Speaker 6 And I really hope they will.

Speaker 5 I don't want to put you on the spot, but you did pique my curiosity with the they've tried to have people assassinated in leadership positions or

Speaker 5 like

Speaker 5 do you mean Trump? Do you mean, are you talking about yourself? I couldn't, I couldn't quite glean what you were intimating on that one.

Speaker 6 I mean, I would just say that

Speaker 6 I don't know that they've been responsible for an assassination attempt on Donald Trump. I can't prove that.

Speaker 6 I think it's very obvious that the Ukrainians were involved in the attempted assassination on the

Speaker 6 golf course in Florida this fall.

Speaker 5 That guy definitely had some contact with Ukraine for sure.

Speaker 6 Well, he was in Ukraine. He was in Ukraine.

Speaker 5 And he was asking

Speaker 6 members of Congress.

Speaker 5 Ballistic missiles or rocket-propelled grenades.

Speaker 6 Yes, that's exactly right. And I think there are others who were the target.
I mean, I I know for a fact there were others who were a target of assassination

Speaker 6 attempts by the Ukrainian government. And by the way, just to be clear, the Ukrainian government, like the U.S.
government, like every government, has factions within it.

Speaker 6 It doesn't mean if one part of the government does something that everyone, the rest of the government knows it's doing it. I mean, there are, it's complicated.
Did the CIA kill Kennedy? No.

Speaker 6 But it's pretty clear that, you know, James Angleton. was aware of it, who worked at CIA.
So it's like, it's more complicated.

Speaker 6 And I don't mean to oversimplify anything, but it's a it's a fact that you elements of the Ukrainian government have tried to assassinate a bunch of people and

Speaker 6 so there you go and I and I think starting with with the with the now president and I and I'm not exactly sure why we haven't gotten to the bottom of that

Speaker 6 I've encouraged it on my show. I think we do need to get to the bottom of it.
I don't know where that investigation is. I don't know where the Butler, Pennsylvania investigation is.

Speaker 6 I mean, there are so many

Speaker 6 obvious unanswered questions.

Speaker 5 We know more about about Kilmar Abrego-Garcia than we know about that shooter in Butler, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 6 I know more about Dr. Jill Biden's college career, which is like totally useless information, by the way, than I do about two assassination attempts on the now president.
So I think it's very strange.

Speaker 6 I'm not withholding something I know. I really don't know why.

Speaker 6 I do think the president is instinctively opposed to talking about those attempts. I think he thinks it diminishes him or makes him seem like he's complaining or

Speaker 6 I don't know exactly what the reason is, but as an American, I think it's fair for the rest of us to ask, like, what was that? You can't have a democracy if

Speaker 6 the head of state lives in fear of assassination. You just, you can't because no one can think clearly or make you know, wise decisions under the threat of death.

Speaker 6 So we need to get that settled, I think, soon.

Speaker 5 While we're on the subject of foreign policy,

Speaker 5 let's take a minute on the Houthis and Iran.

Speaker 5 And that, you know, that's a loud war machine, too.

Speaker 5 I mean, there is definitely a faction of people who would love to see the green light on either us hitting Iran or just backing Israel and it hitting Iran.

Speaker 5 And the Houthis are backed by Iran, so that was playing with fire. I understand why we did it totally.

Speaker 5 But, you know, I just wonder, I haven't heard you speak directly to that attack or the language that we've been hearing around Iran, even by the president. Like, I don't want to bomb them.

Speaker 5 I'd much rather chat, but you know, it's an option, which I know you're against. So can you talk about that a bit?

Speaker 6 Well, I think, I mean, look, just in an ideal world, I think Iran is a threat to Israel. I think it's a threat to the Gulf states.
All six of them were allied with those countries.

Speaker 6 I think they've been really good partners for us. And so it's on a defense of Iran to ask the question, can we actually do this? I mean, there are all kinds of things that you want to do.

Speaker 6 The question is, am I capable of doing them? Do I have the power to affect the change I seek? And in the case of Iran, you know, it's not at all clear.

Speaker 6 What is clear is that any strike on Iran could potentially, because the future, as noted, is hard to predict, could potentially spin into a much wider, potentially global conflict.

Speaker 6 But even in the short term, there are massive, massive downsides. So there are, what, six?

Speaker 6 Iranian nuclear facilities that we know about or we talk about in public anyway, and all six of them are on the Gulf, the Arabian Gulf or the Persian Gulf, depending on what side you're on, but they're on the Gulf.

Speaker 6 Well, the water supply for every country in the region comes from the Gulf through desalinization.

Speaker 6 So if you blow up a nuclear site and you pollute the Persian Gulf, then you've got six of the richest countries in the world with no water.

Speaker 6 And at least one of them has thought this through and has been building giant reservoirs for seawater, for drinking water, but they're only a couple weeks' supply. So like

Speaker 6 the second point you make is that a huge percentage of global energy goes through that piece of water, you know, out to the Straits of Hormuz and then to the West, to Europe and the United States and to the world.

Speaker 6 And so if you shut that down, you're looking at global oil prices, you know, looking at $25 a gallon gasoline, right?

Speaker 6 So that's the fastest, most destructive kind of inflation that percolates down through the whole economy because the price of energy determines the price of pretty much everything because energy makes civilization possible.

Speaker 6 So that's a really big downside. I'm not saying it's not.
You know, it's not a question of like, are you happy that Iran might have nukes? I'm not happy that Pakistan Pakistan has nukes.

Speaker 6 There also, there's at least one other country that clearly has nukes that nobody says out loud. I'm not talking about Israel, but, you know,

Speaker 6 it's a more complicated world. Like, France has nukes.
Is France doing deals with other countries that guarantee nuclear protection for other countries? Probably.

Speaker 6 You know, so there's proliferation is a lot. more profound a problem than I think people understand.
So, but anyway, no one wants Iran to have nukes. No one in the Gulf does.

Speaker 6 Israel does and Trump does and I don't. You don't.
Nobody wants Iran to have nukes. The question is, how do we stop that?

Speaker 6 And I don't really think it's about nukes. I think it's about regime change in Iran, that this government is hostile to the West, hostile to Israel primarily, but also to the United States.
They are.

Speaker 6 And we would like a new government there that can be our friend. Now, there's a long history in Iran going back to 1954, where the U.S.
government did affect regime change, as you know.

Speaker 6 In fact, the guy in charge that lived on my street as a kid, former CIA officer, Roosevelt, and that didn't work well.

Speaker 6 And that got us to the Shah and then to 1979 and then the Islamic Republic ever since. So like we, it's hard to affect regime change in countries you're not from.

Speaker 6 It's hard to know what the consequences will be. We've tampered in that country extensively.
It hasn't worked at all. It's been counterproductive.
And that's also true of neighboring countries, Iraq.

Speaker 6 Syria right now, Libya. I mean, just name the country.
Like regime change is hard to pull off. Okay.

Speaker 6 So anyone telling you regime change, and there are a lot of people, paid liars in Washington, who are telling you that, like, oh, well, just regime change.

Speaker 6 There's a huge, lots of people hate the religious authorities in Iran. I think that's true.
Seems to be true.

Speaker 6 But that's not the same as, oh, we're going to throw in a pro-Western government and everything's going to be fine. Like, show us where you've done that before.
Oh, you've never done it.

Speaker 5 No, I've been joking that

Speaker 5 when they talk about regime change in Russia, they think they're going to get Jeb Bartlett in there after Putin.

Speaker 6 Like, hello.

Speaker 6 Oh, dude. Oh, dude.

Speaker 6 The largest country in the world that's 25% Muslim that, you know, Putin is a moderate. Putin is the most pro-Western person I've dealt with in Russia.
I mean, I'm just telling you, like, whatever.

Speaker 6 I'm not defending Putin, though. I think you can make a case he's done a great job for Russia.

Speaker 5 No, but you're making a case you don't know what's coming next. And yeah, look at the terrorism threat from within Russia.

Speaker 5 I mean, he's clamped down on that just the way you'd want to happen in your country.

Speaker 6 I think we can say that anybody at a think tank or a publication or a federal agency who blithely talks about regime change in any country should be disqualified from talking about anything foreign policy related ever again.

Speaker 6 If you had a hand in the Iraq war, if you had a hand in the Syria disaster, if you had a hand in killing Qaddafi, if you had a hand in Afghanistan, if you lied about what happened on 9-11, and that's pretty much everybody in D.C.

Speaker 6 and the foreign policy establishment, you can no longer participate in the decision-making process about where to send arms and money around the world because you are disqualified.

Speaker 6 Your track record is so repugnant. We're not going to throw you in jail, though you clearly deserve it.

Speaker 6 We are instead just going to take you out of the conversation because you are demonstrably unqualified to get us into new wars because you screwed it up last time.

Speaker 6 I don't think that's a terrible standard. That's like a really straightforward standard.
And I feel angry about it because I spent my whole life there.

Speaker 6 My dad worked for the federal government in the foreign policy sphere. And so like, I just grew up with this stuff and I know the people.

Speaker 6 And I know that none of them has ever apologized or changed his thinking, repented. And the baseline requirement in my house as a father is you can do whatever you want.

Speaker 6 You can screw up as badly as you want. I will always love you no matter what you do, but you have to admit fault and you have to try to change.
That's called repentance.

Speaker 6 That's like we should make that a absolute unyielding requirement for our leaders. If you screw up, if you admit it and try to get better, we still love you.

Speaker 6 But if you refuse to do that, we're never trusting you again. And that's our entire foreign policy establishment.

Speaker 6 And so for those people, and by the way, it's not just that they're like arguing for regime change in Iraq. They're not.
They're not.

Speaker 6 They don't, they're not even honorable enough to say what they want out loud. And anyone who raises questions, I'll speak from great experience on this topic.

Speaker 6 I've never said word one about what's happening in Gaza, okay? I have views on it. I'm not impressed at all, but I've like tried to pull back because it's not my country, okay?

Speaker 6 So I'm just looking at it from an American perspective.

Speaker 6 I don't want my country to be further weakened, my fellow citizens to die yet again, my federal treasury to be drained yet again on behalf of an idea that's clearly stupid.

Speaker 6 Like, I think it's important to say, wait a second, is this a good idea? Can we actually do what you say we can do? For doing that, I have been attacked as a tool of Iran. I'm a freaking Episcopalian.

Speaker 6 I am not Shiite as a tool of Qatar, who's like one of our closest allies in the world. The largest American air base in the Middle East is in Qatar.
They're a close ally of ours.

Speaker 6 And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, you're taking Qatari money. I've never taken a dollar.
I've never taken a dollar from any government. I mean, are you joking?

Speaker 6 And these are people who are acting on behalf of a foreign government telling me that I'm unpatriotic.

Speaker 6 And I try not to get like crazy angry about it, but it's hard because you see these people, you know, Ben Shapiro or these shills, like, come out and like attack you personally because

Speaker 5 having he was bashing you just this week.

Speaker 6 But it's what what's so infuriating is like I'm 56 in two weeks, so I've watched this. I was in Iraq.
Like I'm not an expert on anything and I would never claim expertise.

Speaker 6 I try not to claim expertise I don't have. But just I have a good memory and I was there for a lot of this stuff.
And I have unresolved rage for the reasons I just explained. No one's apologized.

Speaker 6 No one's repented. No one's changed.
And so to attack me is I'm selling out my country, which is the only thing I care about. I don't have another passport.
I have no plans to go anywhere. I could.

Speaker 6 I could certainly afford to move some other country. I'm not.
I live directly across from my parents' grave and I'm never leaving.

Speaker 6 So to attack me as a shill for another country when you yourself are shilling for another country, it's almost too much for my tiny brain to deal with, actually.

Speaker 6 How much better it would be if someone like Ben Shapiro, who's smart, and I don't think Ben Shapiro is like evil, I'm not attacking him as a person, but how much better would it be if he could just sit and say, okay, here's what I think would happen if we joined an attack.

Speaker 6 on Iran or stop lying to me and telling me that we're going to defeat the Houthis. The whole point of getting involved in a war with the Houthis is to suck us into war with Iran.

Speaker 6 Like, I know that because I know a lot about this topic. So don't patronize me and lie to me.
Just be straightforward and say, I think we can affect regime change in Iran. Here's how we can do it.

Speaker 6 And then I could say, well, here are my concerns. But in the middle of the day,

Speaker 6 you're weak. You know, you don't love America.
I don't love America? Really?

Speaker 6 It's too much. I can't deal with it.
Obviously.

Speaker 6 Forgive me.

Speaker 5 I can't remember exactly what he was saying, but he was definitely suggesting that you were,

Speaker 5 I can't remember. I just saw it in passing in a headline, so I don't want to put it something about the Russia.

Speaker 6 Well, I mean, what's wrong with me?

Speaker 6 Frankly,

Speaker 6 I'm not. Great.

Speaker 5 It's kind of the time for peace nicks after 20 years of endless war and a lot of blood and treasure sacrificed for very little results.

Speaker 6 Well, I kind of feel that way, and it's hard for me as someone who's carried a 38 in his pocket for many years to think of myself as like some hippie peacenick or something.

Speaker 6 But I do think that Christianity, unique among the world's religions, certainly among the monotheistic religions, has a real problem with violence. Like,

Speaker 6 I've just had been reading the New Testament. I'm hardly a theologian.
I'm not an expert. Consult other sources.
Don't take my word for it.

Speaker 6 But like, it's pretty clear in the gospels that when Peter pulls out the sword and cuts off the ear of the guy who's arresting Jesus and Jesus scolds him and

Speaker 6 heals the slave's ear, it's like, that's a pretty clear sign that our religion does not condone violence. And I don't understand why nobody says that,

Speaker 6 but that that is my read of it. So I do feel like there's a religious impulse behind my views also, but there's the practical concerns that I just listed.

Speaker 6 But on the Russia thing, it's like nobody asked me whether I thought Russia should be our enemy. I'll tell you, no.
I think people are really mad that they were not mad at Russia before.

Speaker 6 They were not mad when the Soviets ran it. They weren't mad when the drunk Boris Yeltsin ran it.
They were mad when Putin took over in 2000 and started refinancing the Russian Orthodox Church.

Speaker 6 I do think that was like a really, that was upsetting to a lot of people in the West. And I think,

Speaker 6 whatever, that's their view. That's not my view.
I think that's good. I think Christian countries are good.
And I think that, you know, I'm not moving to Russia. I don't speak Russian.

Speaker 6 I have kind of nothing to do with Russia, actually, but I definitely don't think it's the most threatening country in the world to us. I think we should be allies with Russia.

Speaker 6 I think that's in our interest.

Speaker 6 to to say like, oh, you like Putin. Well, okay, first of all, I'm an American citizen.
I can like anyone I want. Okay, it doesn't mean I'm unpatriotic.

Speaker 6 Actually, I would have questions about the patriotism of anybody who wants to get us into a war that's going to kill more Americans that we can't win and that serves no obvious purpose.

Speaker 6 So, like, the whole way of debating it drives me bonkers. It's like personal.
It's attacking people's character. It's attacking their loyalty to the nation.
I thought that's what the left did.

Speaker 6 And it's also, by the way, in favor of censorship. Like, oh, I don't know if you should platform people with those views.
What? That's ridiculous. Well, that's another thing that I've said.

Speaker 6 I know the word platform is not a verb. It's not a verb.
It's a noun. It's something you stand on when you dive into a swimming pool.
It's not a verb.

Speaker 6 Stop stealing my nouns and making them into verbs, you douchebag.

Speaker 5 Yes. And stop stealing pronouns that already have a meaning and trying to give them new meaning.
They, them is taken. It's not available to you, confused people.

Speaker 6 Sorry. Wow.

Speaker 5 No, it's good. It's a fine tear.

Speaker 5 I got a lot of places I could go with that. But what you said is also true about what's happening in Gaza.

Speaker 5 You know, I've been very pro-Israel on this show after the 10-7 attack, and then I haven't been following the day-to-day, you know, bombing campaign.

Speaker 5 But I have noticed, and I've talked to Glenn Greenwald on the program about it a lot, that the people who have problems with what Israel is doing

Speaker 5 too often get the knee-jerk, you're an anti-Semite. And that's not okay either.

Speaker 5 You know, it's like it is totally fine to criticize Israel and to think that they've gone too far and that they've been too, you know, non-judicious in this retaliatory campaign, that is, you cannot dismiss anybody who feels that way and who is really critical of how Israel's handled itself as an anti-Semite.

Speaker 5 But that gets, you know, that gets collapsed too into like one of those narratives one cannot espouse.

Speaker 5 You are not allowed to say that, just like you are not allowed to have a different view of Putin and this war, you know, this proxy war that we've entered to against him.

Speaker 6 See,

Speaker 6 it's actually, it's a very powerful slur.

Speaker 6 It has a much more immediate effect on my life that, you know, they called me for years a racist or whatever. Okay.

Speaker 5 You know, if I was racist, I would say that literally all over the New York Times.

Speaker 6 They're so disappointed.

Speaker 5 They couldn't bring you down. It's like that.

Speaker 6 I didn't really care.

Speaker 6 You know, I have a lot of Jewish friends, like real friends, not people I know, but like actual friends. And so I don't want to be called that because it's not true.

Speaker 6 And that's a very tough thing to call somebody. And all of a sudden, I, you know, the last thing I want is a fight over Israel.

Speaker 6 I just don't, by the way, I do think way too much headspace in this country and too much public debate is devoted to foreign countries.

Speaker 6 Like, I want to know how we're going to fix the roads in this country and lower the suicide rate a little bit and the OD rate. I think you should be worried about the Mexican drug cartels.

Speaker 5 Just quickly,

Speaker 5 we're not talking about in our last half hour today. We're going to be talking about the fentanyl crisis because it's the National Fentanyl Awareness Day.

Speaker 6 And it's the number one killer of our young people.

Speaker 5 The number one killer of our young people.

Speaker 5 It's killed more people than all the wars since World War II forward has killed in america and we're just kind of like oh i mean until trump really we weren't paying much attention to it at all

Speaker 6 yeah i mean and i think all of us i know a couple people who've died from it and and i i'm not unusual i think everyone knows people who've died from it so it's it's it's literally like the worst thing that's happening in the united states and you know, fentanyl's killed more Americans than Iran has.

Speaker 6 So on some level, it's like I resent the hijacking of my concern by a foreign country. I mean, I do.
And I think, look, I spent a lot of time in foreign countries.

Speaker 6 I think foreign policy is super interesting. It matters to the United States.
The world matters. I mean, I'm not an isolationist in any sense.

Speaker 6 I'm actually in more foreign countries than most people by a lot, you know, but I do think fixing the United States is the main priority for Americans. So that bothers me.

Speaker 6 But on the question of Israel, it's like, I like Israel. I've been there a number of times, taking my family there on vacation.
They're going again soon. We're Christians.

Speaker 6 They want to go to Jerusalem. I got it.
So, and I have a million friends who both live in Israel and who love Israel. So I don't want to have a fight about Israel at all, just at all.

Speaker 6 So I've really tried not to have that fight. And, but I don't want the United States to enter in another unwinnable Middle Eastern war.
I just really, really don't, especially now.

Speaker 6 We don't even have the ammo for it. So whatever.
There's a lot. But anyway, I have been like attacked in ways that are so crazy that I, and it's totally coordinated from Israel.

Speaker 6 So I finally, the other day, I called someone I know in the Israeli government. There are like some great people in the Israeli government.
I called one of them and I said, you know, stop this.

Speaker 6 Like I am not your enemy. You have, you don't think you have enough enemies? I mean, what? You have like real enemies.
I've gone out of my way. And by the way, it's our weapons being used

Speaker 6 in Gaza. So I have every right to say, you have a dispute with your neighbor and you want to get, you know, medieval on him.
Do it on your own dime. Do it with your own weapons.

Speaker 6 I'm not paying for that. That's a totally fair position.
As an American taxpayer who pays like way more than his share in taxes, like I have a right to do that.

Speaker 6 I haven't done that because I don't to fight, but I've been attacked anyway. And these creepy people taking direct orders from a foreign government are attacking me on the internet.

Speaker 6 And I wouldn't care except this specific slur affects my personal life. Like a really old friend of mine, 35-year-old friend, I can't believe what they're saying.
Is this true?

Speaker 6 Is it true that I'm an anti-semit? No, of course not.

Speaker 6 What are you even saying?

Speaker 6 So, um, so they've gotten to me. So that's made me upset.
So I called up and I was like, you guys got to stop. We're not doing that.

Speaker 6 I'm almost 56. I know how the world works.
Please stop.

Speaker 6 Well, and I was like, if you think I'm your main enemy in a world that really hates you, I mean, they're right about that. A lot of people really do hate Israel.
I'm not one of them.

Speaker 6 If you think I'm the problem, you've gone off the deep end. You're insane.
Like, I am showing restraint.

Speaker 6 The only thing I've done one segment on the whole topic, and it's on Christians in the Holy Land. I am a Christian.
My family's been Christian for, you know, whatever, a thousand years.

Speaker 6 I have a right to say this. And Christians in the Holy Land are mistreated by

Speaker 6 Muslims and by Israel and in the West Bank and in Gaza. And I have a right to say I don't think that U.S.
tax dollars should be used to mistreat Christians.

Speaker 6 And by the way, my real contempt is not for Israel.

Speaker 6 It's for the American evangelical preachers who ignore this, the Christian Zionists who think it's okay to blow up a church because their weird theology, which is like demonstrably not in the New Testament, I can just tell you, it's not there.

Speaker 6 I don't know where they came up with this. It's not there.
It's not what it says, but whatever. I'm mad at them.

Speaker 6 I did one segment on that. And all of a sudden, I'm like a Holocaust denier or something.
So anyway, I called up and I said, you guys got to pull back on this stuff. It's crazy.

Speaker 6 And again, I'm the wrong target. And I don't think it really had any effect, but I did do that because it's like,

Speaker 6 why would I want that? I just don't want to go to Ron.

Speaker 5 How does it make its way to you, Tucker? Because I know you wisely avoid the internet as much as possible.

Speaker 6 Because people

Speaker 6 usually

Speaker 6 get, I get texts from people who are like, oh, you know, is it, do you really have a Holocaust denier on your show? What? No.

Speaker 6 I mean, I was in a mirror.

Speaker 5 That comes to you personally. Right.
Okay.

Speaker 6 With a well-known person who's like, who I like, who's like, my wife wanted me to ask you, why did you have a Holocaust denier on your show?

Speaker 6 And I was like, I don't even know what the hell he was talking about. And it's just layers of propaganda.
Rather than, look, and I'm not, I hate it when people whine about being attacked.

Speaker 6 I almost never do it. I'm just, in this specific case, I think we are being robbed of the debate that we need

Speaker 6 over our foreign policy, over foreign influence on our politics, which is absolutely profound. And it's not coming from Russia.
It's coming from Israel. It's profound.

Speaker 6 You can't even say that out loud because why?

Speaker 6 And I feel like none of us can have an honest, non-hateful, non-crazy, non-anti-Semitic, just a straightforward conversation about sovereignty. Like, can we make decisions in our own interest or not?

Speaker 6 And about what the wise course is. And by the way, I think you should listen to other countries, including Israel and Canada and France and every country.

Speaker 6 Like what you do has an effect on other people and you should hear them out. I'm not saying you shouldn't, you should.
And I would include Israel in that.

Speaker 6 I'm merely saying we should talk openly and not leave it to the crazy people.

Speaker 6 Responsible, normal, non-hateful people should have an open conversation about what the right next steps are

Speaker 6 and all kinds of different theaters and the risks. That's exactly right.

Speaker 5 And you can't

Speaker 6 because all of a sudden you've got Ben Shapiro being like, oh, you're sucking up to Putin. You're anti-Semitic.
It's like, son, sit this one out. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Speaker 6 You're a child, actually.

Speaker 6 And you're reading talking points that discredit you. I think Ben is smart.
He probably has interesting things to say.

Speaker 6 But when you are unwilling to criticize a foreign government at all, it tells the rest of us what you're saying isn't real. Like, will you, will you criticize the U.S.
government every day?

Speaker 6 Are you kidding? Every, my dad worked for the U.S. government and I'm willing to criticize every, that's all I do is criticize the U.S.
government.

Speaker 6 You're not allowed to criticize a foreign government. What are you talking about? Who wrote these rules, man? And you're going to try and shut me up by calling me a hater when I'm not.

Speaker 6 And if I were, I would just say so. I don't think that's going to work.

Speaker 5 Yeah. No, it didn't work when the New York Times tried to do it to you on the racist claim or to me for that matter.
And it can't work on an anti-Semitism charge either.

Speaker 5 Like, we have to, we have to be able to talk about Israel and Iran, very honestly, the ups and downs and the,

Speaker 5 I mean, severe risks of this strategy that many are pushing. Though the question is whether Trump is listening.
All right, we got to squeeze in a break.

Speaker 5 The one and only Tucker Carlson, he's so interesting, isn't he? And I haven't even scratched the surface of my list. So we'll come back and we'll scratch some surfaces.
Don't go anywhere.

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Speaker 11 Why did we build the first American nuclear plant in 30 years? Because we're leading the way to secure American energy dominance.

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Speaker 12 In a world where anyone with big money or big breasts can reach the stars, take up space!

Speaker 3 Three women, one mission.

Speaker 5 They all find me very inspirational. Yes.

Speaker 12 Limited training.

Speaker 13 Right, left, right, left.

Speaker 12 Their dream to inspire humanity, or at least grab a few good selfies.

Speaker 12 This Friday on the Megan Kelly Show, the launch of Blonde Origin.

Speaker 5 I don't appreciate what people call it a ride. It's not a ride, it's a mission.
There's nothing frivolous about what we just did.

Speaker 12 Blonde Origin.

Speaker 12 Where weightlessness and cluelessness collide.

Speaker 13 I'm inspirational.

Speaker 6 That is so awesome.

Speaker 5 You're going to the Middle East and I'm going to space.

Speaker 6 No, I just love that.

Speaker 6 I can't see any video, so I'm just hearing it. Like, what is this?

Speaker 5 We got to tune in on Friday when we... We have our official response to the ridiculousness of that Blue Origin spaceflight where we crowned six new astronauts.
You may have heard.

Speaker 5 They have a difficult time calling themselves astronauts because they're not.

Speaker 6 But we had so much fun mocking them.

Speaker 5 And let's just say we took it to new heights, the mockery.

Speaker 6 Okay. It's not a ride, it's a mission.
So good.

Speaker 5 Okay. I want to start with this.
Mark Halperin was on the show recently, and he had something interesting to say about you. And it had the ring of truth.
I know he's been on your show too.

Speaker 5 Take a listen to what he reported here on the show.

Speaker 5 Do you think Pete Hegseth will survive this?

Speaker 5 And will he survive as Defense Secretary? Because it's very clear some group of people that's pretty loud is out to get him.

Speaker 6 Yeah. So I've got what I call the Trump Board of Directors, okay?

Speaker 6 And the board of directors is Tucker, Charlie Kirk, and Don Jr. And if the board of directors support something, I think generally it happens.

Speaker 6 And I believe all three of them, I know all three of them have been supportive.

Speaker 5 Confirm or deny.

Speaker 6 Well, no one tells me when the meetings are. No, of course not.
I'm not on a board of directors.

Speaker 6 No, I don't. You know, it means informally that you're like the top advisors on the outside.

Speaker 6 No, my gosh. I don't like it when people exert influence secretly.
It's better just to say out loud exactly.

Speaker 6 You know, you, because what happened, I've seen it obviously my whole life is that people become power worshipers really quickly.

Speaker 6 It's in all of us to kowtow to power, to worship power, to want power, and that's our destruction. So I'm wary of all of that.
I mean, I love Trump.

Speaker 6 I've always, you know, I mean, I've definitely gone through phases over the last 20 years as have we years of knowing Trump.

Speaker 6 But no, I, you know, there's no one who's more entertaining, fun to be with, whose instincts are, they're just incredible. He's like, he's an incredible person.

Speaker 6 You don't, obviously, he's an incredible person. So I really like Trump so much.

Speaker 6 And, but I try and say, I try to, probably don't always succeed, but I try to say exactly what I would say in private in public.

Speaker 6 I just try to be transparent, both so I don't have to keep track of different storylines or lies, and also because I just feel better. It's just good to be open about everything.

Speaker 6 I do think Pete is under attack. I love Halbrin, by the way.
He's really smart.

Speaker 5 He's launching his own podcast today. It's called Up Next.

Speaker 5 with Mark Halbron. And that's part of our new MK Media podcast, Network.
Sorry, next up, Next Up.

Speaker 6 I love that. Oh, I didn't even know.
I'm going to text him right now.

Speaker 6 But anyway, I think his analysis is totally right. There is a group.
I think it's partly ideological that would very much like to see Pete out. I'm on this, you know, I'm, of course, close to Pete.

Speaker 6 I've known Pete a long time. We have the same job.
I know you are as well. And so I'm strongly for Pete.

Speaker 6 But I do think that a lot of the drama at the staff level in the Pentagon, some of it's just the product of the fact the Pentagon is a snake pit, very complicated place to work.

Speaker 6 I said to Pete recently, I was like, there's no way I could ever, I couldn't run that place for one day. I mean, I'm just, I'm in awe of anyone who can run the Pentagon.
So I think that's part of it.

Speaker 6 But there's also an ideological motive here. And Pete is like sensible.
He's rooted in the experience of the troops. He is, of course, loyal to the president.
He understands the president's vision.

Speaker 6 And it would be a lot easier, I think, to have like a crazed neoconservative senator run the Pentagon if you wanted a war with Iran. I do think that's part of it.

Speaker 6 And I, so I don't understand a lot of what's happening there. I do know Dan Caldwell pretty well,

Speaker 6 who's one of the

Speaker 6 aides, one of the senior aides who was fired. Yeah.
And I'm completely convinced. And I think the evidence proves that Dan Caldwell did not leak classified information to NBC News.
That's a lie.

Speaker 6 I was told that by somebody who I trust, by the way, who I think was telling me the truth. He believed it also, but that was out there.
Everyone heard that.

Speaker 6 He photocopied information or took a picture on his phone, texted it to this reporter at nbc broke federal law that's a crime to do that undermined the president etc etc well that was that that's not true he didn't do that and moreover not only did he not do that there's no evidence that he did it because they never took his phone and they never polygraphed him so the whole thing was one of those classic washington i think of it as like getting attacked by a swarm of bees like you're just going along you're walking through the woods and all of a sudden you step on a hive and they're just flying up your shorts they're on you you can't think straight all you know is pain and that's how they get people Like this stuff will appear out of nowhere.

Speaker 6 All of a sudden, you'll just hear so-and-so is bad. He did something really wrong.
I don't know all the details, but he's done. And then the five-minute hate begins, and the person's destroyed.

Speaker 6 That's what happened to Dan Caldwell.

Speaker 6 But the question is, why? It wasn't personal, because Dan Caldwell was a check against the enormous pressure that the Pentagon and the White House are receiving to... engage in a war with Iran.

Speaker 6 And also to destabilize Pete. I mean, he'd worked with Pete for over 10 years.
They were concerned veterans for America together, so he knew him well.

Speaker 6 And so to take away all the people that the secretary knows well and trusts and replace them with, you know, sinister lifers who are never telling the truth about anything, I do think, again, I don't have any special knowledge.

Speaker 6 This is just my outside analysis as someone who's a student of bureaucracy, the federal bureaucracy. I think that's what happened.

Speaker 5 So after you guys, after you sat with Dan Caldwell, which was a great interview and I hit last Monday, everybody should listen to it.

Speaker 5 it, we wound up speaking with one of the other guys who got fired, Colin Carroll. And he had a different take on it.
His take was,

Speaker 5 I mean, he didn't put it in this exact way, but he said, they're having these fights with this Joe Casper, who's Pete's chief of staff. They couldn't get along with this guy.

Speaker 5 He couldn't get along with them, like pretty much all three of them. It sounded like maybe he felt threatened by them.
He denies that. He says the office was running fine.
Just look at the results.

Speaker 5 But they seem to say this guy was an obstacle that they were trying to get around. And I think they think he was out to get them.
And he thinks they were out to get him.

Speaker 5 And they think he had a heavy hand in setting it up to look like they were the leakers.

Speaker 5 And I don't know exactly whether that's true or not, but obviously those three were walked out the door and he was walked out of his position. He's no longer the chief of staff.

Speaker 5 But the whole thing has the unfortunate effect of making Pete's top inner circle look like it's in disarray. And I'll say this, we both like Mark a lot.
So his podcast is called Next Up.

Speaker 5 It's going to premiere today. And he, I believe, has a bit of news he's going to be breaking on Pete.
And it doesn't sound like it's necessarily going to be all that positive.

Speaker 5 So we'll have to tune in. Even I don't know exactly what it is.
So we'll have to tune in to find out. But I'll ask you the same question I was asking there.
Do you think he will survive this?

Speaker 5 Because, you know, there are a lot of people out to get him. And you don't know.

Speaker 5 So far, outwardly, Trump's been saying he stands by him, but you just never know how much of this he wants to wade through.

Speaker 6 Well, of course, I have no idea what Halpern's going to say, and he's been, as he does, actively reporting on this. I have not been, so I'm sure he knows a lot more than I do.

Speaker 6 So I don't want to get, you know, over my skis and make yet another bad prediction, which I've done streaming for 30 years.

Speaker 6 Well, Peter Putin will never invade Ukraine. Okay.
That was one of my bad predictions. But

Speaker 6 excuse me. But

Speaker 6 my sense as of last time I was paying close attention, talking to people is that

Speaker 6 Pete, Secretary Hegseth, did have the full support of the president. And,

Speaker 6 you know, both because I think he loves Pete as a person. I know I do.
He's just a good guy.

Speaker 6 And his wife was my producer, who I love, Jen. And so I, and but I think Trump feels the same way about them.
Pete has a lot of friends. People like Pete.
He's a good man.

Speaker 6 But also because I don't think you want to lose a key cabinet secretary 100 days in. I don't think that's a good precedent at all.
And for what?

Speaker 6 And for what? You know, it's like that's exactly for what?

Speaker 5 Because there were staff squabbles?

Speaker 6 Yes, exactly. No, I think that's exactly.
I think it's exactly right. And, but here's what I, and, and what, I don't know, Colin.

Speaker 6 Um, I've heard he's an amazing person and a patriot and a man of bravery and integrity. And I believe all of that.

Speaker 6 And I'm sure that, you know, staff squabbles and fights with the chief of staff, Joe Casper, played a huge role in all of this. But my specialty is on the bigger questions, the ideological questions.

Speaker 6 And I just can't confirm, since that's the world that I live in, that there is huge pressure on a bunch of cabinet secretaries, particularly on Pete Hegseth, to go along with this war with Iran.

Speaker 6 Like that is priority one right now for a bunch of different reasons, partly because of where American troops are on rotation in the Middle East.

Speaker 6 There happen to be a lot of them right now, partly because there's a belief that Iran's air defenses have been neutralized to some extent,

Speaker 6 and maybe for other reasons. So there's a lot of pressure right now.
And so that is a factor in every big decision that's made, you know?

Speaker 6 And I would just say that's a shame because we have a lot of, I mean, that's, those are all fair questions. Should we bomb Iran? Like, that's a real conversation.

Speaker 6 We should not ignore the conversation. But as you just said earlier about fentanyl, like this country has a lot of problems.

Speaker 6 And Donald Trump was elected by grateful voters who wanted those questions to be addressed. And so I just hope as we debate problems in other countries, we also reserve time to fix our own.

Speaker 5 Well, on that front, as we hit the 100-day mark, it's incredible what Trump has done at the border. And I don't think anybody's complaining about what he's done at the border.

Speaker 5 Even the Democrats aren't really saying anything negative about what he's done at the border. They're focused on the deportations, which is equally as important.

Speaker 5 I mean, we've got at least 10 million illegals to get out of this country.

Speaker 5 And we are being stymied at every turn by a media and the left who are hand in hand determined to stop stop it, even with the so-called worst-first policy that Tom Homan is pursuing under Trump.

Speaker 5 We're going to start with not just those who are here illegally, but those who have committed additional crimes or gang members, et cetera.

Speaker 5 And you've seen what the media has been doing to Trump on that front. It's been ridiculous.

Speaker 5 But I wonder what your thought is as Trump battles all this, because we saw the first potential drop in polling this week for Trump. even on immigration.

Speaker 5 That New York Times poll showed for the first time he was underwater on his support for his immigration policies. And overall, he's getting polled.

Speaker 5 Like today, there was one that just dropped from NPR/slash PBS slash Marist,

Speaker 5 1,400 and change people.

Speaker 5 Overall, they gave him a grade.

Speaker 5 The majority said a D or an F. 52% said he gets a D or an F.
23% gave him an A. 17% gave him a B, 8% gave him a C.
But the way this shakes out, Tucker, is 80% of Democrats gave him an F, 89% D or F.

Speaker 5 Republicans, 83% gave him an A or B. And it was really the independence that drove the poll toward the negative for Trump.

Speaker 5 And really, the reason that happened is because 35% he gets an A or B and 55% said he gets a D or an F.

Speaker 5 So you got a 20 percentage point difference in the independence on whether he's doing a good job or a bad job.

Speaker 5 If you look at the number of people polled, 1,400 and change again, that's about 450 independents. So call it like 85 independents are in that swing.

Speaker 5 You've got 85 people polled who are independents, which swung this number, you know, sort of dramatically. Now all the press will run with, oh my God, he's being rejected by everybody.

Speaker 5 Look at these terrible numbers. He's a D or he's an F.
And they will certainly try to say it's these deportations, and they will also say it's tariffs.

Speaker 6 So your thoughts on all that?

Speaker 6 I think tariffs are a completely separate category

Speaker 6 where I'll just say I'm hoping for the best, but uncertain as to how this is going to play out. And I'm not qualified even really to guess.
But of course. Same.

Speaker 5 Thank you for your honesty.

Speaker 6 And I'm rooting for the... Oh, yeah.
Well, don't, I don't want to, no, I don't want to be clown myself further by talking about things I don't understand. Right.
It's just, that's not my area.

Speaker 6 So, um, but, but immigration, you know, I feel like I know more about I'm from a state that was destroyed by it completely. Gavin Newsom didn't destroy California.

Speaker 6 Mass immigration destroyed California. It's a completely different population than the one I grew up with, and it's not better.
It's much worse. So that's the story around the world.

Speaker 6 It's the story of... Sweden, where my ancestors came from.
It's a story of Great Britain, where my other ancestors came from. It's a story of all Western Europe, France, Spain.

Speaker 6 These countries have been destroyed by mass immigration. That's not a guess at this point.
Like the results are in, we know.

Speaker 6 And so from my perspective, the real number in the United States is unknown.

Speaker 6 I spoke to a federal official recently who told me the real number is probably closer to 50 million illegal aliens living in the United States right now. So that leaves me confused.

Speaker 6 So you are watching in real time a digital prison being built around the rest of us on the basis of facial recognition and, quote, real IDs, where you can't conduct any business, you can't travel without verifying you are who you say you are.

Speaker 6 Okay, that's the point of this. It's for our safety.
But somehow we can't even know who lives in this country with facial recognition and real IDs.

Speaker 6 The federal government intrudes into every decision you make in your personal life, but somehow they're totally incapable with all of that technology of telling us how many non-citizens are living here illegally.

Speaker 6 I call bullshit on that. That's a lie.
And I also wonder, like, what is

Speaker 6 the aggregate number of deportees in the last hundred days? If it's under a million, I'll just say I'm disappointed. And I say this to someone who voted for Trump, who loves Trump.
I like Tom Homan.

Speaker 6 But, like, what is this? The scale of this, because this country is so large, is opaque to most people. They don't understand that our country was just completely changed forever.

Speaker 6 And it's not acceptable.

Speaker 6 I mean, I happen to live in a place that's really been affected by immigration, by refugee resettlement, which is, I think, a worse problem than illegal immigration, by the way, because at least illegal immigrants are showing a willingness to put their own butt on the line to get a better life.

Speaker 6 There's something about that that everybody admires.

Speaker 6 I don't admire anything about a church group, Catholic charities or the million Protestant groups that move refugees from some refugee camp in Africa into my community where they languish, commit welfare fraud, commit crime.

Speaker 6 I'm not even attacking them. Like I feel sorry for them too.
You know, you were just living in Sudan or Somalia and now you're living in Minneapolis or Portland, Maine.

Speaker 6 It's like, I feel sorry for you. No one really cares about the effect on you or your family, obviously, but the net effect on the people who live there is terrible.
I can verify that.

Speaker 6 And no one even mentions it. It's like truly destroying the United States is the largest crime ever committed against us.
I am not a racist.

Speaker 6 I'm not even insecure about it anymore since I've been called it so much. It's not in my heart.
I'm not a racist. I am a nationalist who loves this country and has no other.
And that is a true,

Speaker 6 true attack on the United States. And I think we need more resources, more seriousness, and higher numbers.
Like, get back to 5 million.

Speaker 5 This just hit

Speaker 5 as we were speaking. Bill Melusian of Fox News

Speaker 5 knew ICE announces they've deported 65,682 illegals in the Trump administration's first 100 days and have arrested 66,000 and change illegals, 75% of whom have criminal charges or convictions.

Speaker 5 So that's, we've arrested about 66,000 and we've deported 66,000. So that's a best case scenario of getting rid of or getting custody over about 120,000, Tucker.
And that's not great. It's not great.

Speaker 5 They've been stymied at every turn. The local officials haven't allowed it.

Speaker 5 The courts, the ACLU. But I mean, how, and I have to say even this, like, we're waiting on our big, beautiful bill so President Trump could get funding for his initiatives.

Speaker 5 It's Tom Holman's been jumping up and down saying, I have no place to put the people.

Speaker 5 Like, you know, they do have some certain time where we have to lock them up before we can ship them out while they get their quote due process. He's like, I'm running out of beds.
Like, I need help.

Speaker 5 That's what he's been saying. But what do you think of that? Because that's those numbers a little bit.

Speaker 6 Why is it incumbent on us? First of all, stop refugee resettlement in the United States. It's destroyed a lot of communities.

Speaker 6 It's destroyed communities that I'm very familiar with, destroyed them forever. So stop that immediately.
We have no moral obligation to take a single new refugee and we shouldn't, period. Second,

Speaker 6 Mexico. One word, Mexico.
Mexico, a country that exists because of our largesse, because we move so much manufacturing to Mexico.

Speaker 6 I mean, you know, Monterey, Mexico, which is the economic engine of Mexico, wouldn't be so if it weren't for the United States. And so we have a lot of leverage over Mexico.

Speaker 6 By the way, they're, you know, they're sending us drugs. We're sending them jobs.
And they're also sending us refugees and illegal immigrants from all over the world.

Speaker 6 How about we just move a million people to Tijuana tomorrow and say, you deal with it. You did this to us, you deal with it.
And it was intentional.

Speaker 6 The anti-American sentiment, not among ordinary Mexicans who are honestly some of my favorite people, I grew up next to them, awesome people, but their leaders hate the United States.

Speaker 6 They always have since the Mexican Revolution. That's why Leon Trotsky sought refuge in Mexico.

Speaker 6 There's a reason because the leadership of Mexico is extremely anti-American, extremely ideologically left-wing, full atheist, by the way, in a Catholic country.

Speaker 6 It's It's a super dark management structure in Mexico and always has been, honestly, since the Aztecs. And they

Speaker 6 have no choice. They're the country that we should be applying pressure to.

Speaker 6 Here are our illegal aliens that walked across your sovereign territory to get into our country. You deal with them.
And you cut the deal with Guatemala and you cut the deal with Honduras or Peru.

Speaker 5 What do you make of all the due process? Due process. We have to give them due process before we, you know, this is the United States.
We have to give due process. Due process.

Speaker 6 Kick them out. Really, I'm for due process, and I am for due process

Speaker 6 specifically for me. I'm an American citizen.
American citizens pay for this system. Their ancestors built this system and they deserve its fruits.

Speaker 6 And the first among them is fairness and due process. They're basically the same thing.

Speaker 6 So that I'm not that concerned whether someone who broke a law, my law, to get into my country and is taking welfare from my pocket gets due process. I'm not that concerned.

Speaker 6 Second, after three years of getting a daily lecture about democracy and how it dies in darkness, democracy, democracy, what is democracy?

Speaker 6 Democracy is the idea that the people in a country run the country. They make the big decisions.
They own it. They're not slaves or serfs.

Speaker 6 They're shareholders in this enterprise called America, and they have a say.

Speaker 6 So now those same people are telling me that some appointed unelected federal judge gets to invite 7 billion people into my country and there's nothing I can do about it? Yeah, I don't think so.

Speaker 6 I'm not playing along with that. I'm totally for balance of power.
I'm for the current system as envisioned, which by the way, is going away. It's not sustainable with this population.

Speaker 6 Let's be honest. It's not, nobody cares about the Constitution anymore.
I do, because I'm a legacy American, but none of the newcomers, the 50 million people who just got here, they don't care at all.

Speaker 6 Why would they? It's not their heritage. It's mine.
So you're going to lecture me about that and then tell me that we can't stop anybody coming here on our dime who just feels like coming here.

Speaker 6 I'm ignoring you. I'm literally ignoring you.
What are you going to do about it? That's how I personally feel about it because that's the end of democracy. You're violating the people's will through

Speaker 6 your

Speaker 6 appointment, your appointed power, not your elected power. The power does not derive from the population.
It derives from the appointment that you got.

Speaker 6 And you're making the central decision in our society. I don't think you are.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 how do they speed it up? I mean, Trump's done so much, Alien Enemies Act, and he expanded, expedited removal, and

Speaker 5 we're back to remain in Mexico, and he has home in it. Like, how does he speed it up?

Speaker 6 The first thing you do is just say,

Speaker 6 anyone who's a non-citizen, a non-citizen of the United States is ineligible for any federal benefit. That means no public schooling.
That means no food stamps or SNAP. That means no housing vouchers.

Speaker 6 That means no benefit designed for American citizens can go to a non-citizen. You want those benefits, become a citizen.
And if you're not a citizen, you get nothing. Why would you? How can you use,

Speaker 6 how are we sitting here and watching every small hospital in the United States is going under right now? Because people who have no right to be here are using the emergency room.

Speaker 6 Bring your kid to an emergency room outside of like some tiny gated rich community, and you will find out that the whole system is collapsing under the weight. I'm sure they're all good people.

Speaker 6 I'm not even attacking them. Like they're doing what I would do.
They're using the available large S to help their families. I get it.
We're the criminals here. We're allowing this.

Speaker 6 So you just say, now on, executive order, no non-citizen, period, can receive federal benefits, period. The president can control that.

Speaker 6 And, you know, then we'll find out who's here for a better life and to bootstrap his way to success and who's here because there's just a lot of free stuff from a very weak, overindulgent, generationally wealthy country that has lost track of reality.

Speaker 6 And the reality is open borders and a welfare state cannot coexist. And we'll find out.
We'll find out.

Speaker 5 We definitely have to make greater progress than this because, I mean,

Speaker 5 it doesn't get easier as time goes on. That's not enough.
130,000 or so in the first 100 days is underwhelming.

Speaker 5 Let me ask you about you. Every time I chat with you, you're all over hell and gone.
I don't know where you are. So describe your life these days.

Speaker 6 Well, I'm hoping to go fishing this afternoon.

Speaker 5 Are you currently up north or down south?

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No,

Speaker 6 I'm up in northern New England where, you know, we had a day on Sunday that was so ugly, slate gray skies, 40 degrees, drizzle, no buds on any tree at all,

Speaker 6 and salt and sand on the roads from winter, and everybody looking kind of like I just spent the last three months inside by the wood stove drinking coffee brandy.

Speaker 6 Like people just look like they've been through a war, as they do in cold climates in the spring. And I thought to myself, this is still the prettiest place on earth.

Speaker 6 I've been everywhere in the world and this is the prettiest, but even on this, the ugliest out of 365 days, it's still the prettiest place God ever made.

Speaker 6 So I'm just really grateful to live where I do and have been here a long time and I'm really thankful. I've had a lot of foreign travel.

Speaker 6 Here I've been like lecturing Ben Shapiro about how you need to care more about America and I'm like in all these other countries. So I understand

Speaker 6 that I'm a hypocrite. And I am.

Speaker 5 I view it from where I sit as like adult education. I feel like you're pursuing a whole new education for yourself now that you have the time to do it.

Speaker 6 Well, you certainly get a different perspective. I mean, I have to say, you know, I've been to every state more than once, most of them a lot.
I really know America pretty well.

Speaker 6 I've traveled my whole life since I was a child and I've just seen a lot of stuff. And I continue to think it's the, you know, you don't need to fly first class on Emirates to see the world.

Speaker 6 You can literally get in your truck and just drive 100 miles and you just learn a lot of stuff. I mean, yesterday, I was visiting a friend in another state.
I was driving. And I see this church.

Speaker 6 Clearly, it's an Episcopal church. Like it's obviously, I know the design of our churches and there's no sign.
So I pull up in front, and I walk in, and it's totally empty.

Speaker 6 The pews have been taken out, the altar's gone, there are no banners hanging from the ceiling. And I'm like, this is an abandoned stone Episcopal church.
And I've been thinking about it ever since.

Speaker 6 Like the denomination I grew up with has totally collapsed because they forgot that God is the power that, you know, gets people in the pews on Sunday.

Speaker 6 Like, right, you give up God, your church collapses. That's like, I just drove 80 miles yesterday and I learned that.
Like that expanded my head a little bit.

Speaker 6 Fly to Saudi Arabia for two weeks like I did this winter or just go someplace new and see stuff and you just understand more.

Speaker 6 And it, the last thing I'll say is like the main lie of the moment that we live in, the generation we live in is that the truth is accessible on your phone.

Speaker 6 That like if you Google enough, you'll get to the truth of things. And that is just itself a lie.
Like that's a total lie.

Speaker 6 And to some large extent, it's a control device designed to make you think things that aren't true and to lead you astray.

Speaker 6 And the antidote to that is to put down your phone, smell things, see things, feel things, like go places, meet people,

Speaker 6 you know, take a deep breath through your nose. I'm a big sniff guy.
I'm on Joe Biden's side that way. I really believe in the olfactory sense.
It's the most revealing one.

Speaker 6 I sniff every person I meet. I never put anything in my mouth without smelling it, not one time in my whole life.
I really believe in that.

Speaker 5 I am going to pay attention to whether you smell me the next time I see you.

Speaker 6 Oh, I've sniffed you many times in a totally harmless way that would not threaten Doug at all, but I just sniff everybody.

Speaker 6 I really believe in that because you learn a lot about someone by smell and vibe, and that's just real. I'm not, I'm hardly a hippie, okay? But that's just a fact.

Speaker 5 No, I've heard you talking about that.

Speaker 6 I'm not talking about anything on the internet. Yes, it's totally real.
I can identify my whole family by smell, and my wife at least.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I've heard you say like each child.

Speaker 6 100%. I know their smell instantly.
And my wife, I mean, I'm literally like a wombat or something. If you are downwind, like I know.

Speaker 6 Sorry, excuse me.

Speaker 5 That's impressive because they say females have a greater sense of smell than men have. So if you're that keen in your sense, then you're even more evolved than the average person.

Speaker 6 I'm less evolved. Stiff with his nose up right now.

Speaker 5 Okay, so that's good. All right, that's I, your point is get out there, get touch grass, all that.
And on that front, you've been a big MAGA, Maha, Maha person

Speaker 5 in that you helped launch Casey and Callie Means, who are basically the right hands of RFKJ right now. Not to mention RFKJ himself, had a huge hand in his comeback and ascension to this position.

Speaker 5 So how are you doing on that front? Because I do hear you talk about your love, yes, of Susie, but also of a woman we know as little Debbie. And I, I, are you practicing what you're preaching?

Speaker 6 Oh, my garbage food intake? Yes. No.

Speaker 6 And I've been on the road for so long. I mean, you can't imagine.
There are countries in which like the three-meal program is just the beginning.

Speaker 6 I mean, there are countries, particularly in the Middle East, where it's like, would you like some more hummus and pita bread? How about some dates?

Speaker 6 And I just, I mean, I have, I quit drinking, I quit smoking cigarettes, I quit drugs. I feel like I've, I've quit deodorant.
I mean, like, I'm totally

Speaker 6 straight edge about everything. Okay.
Yeah. But I just have a huge weakness.
I was thinking about that this morning. I was in my sauna and I'm like, I gotta, I gotta stop eating garbage.

Speaker 6 So, no, that is definitely one of my huge problems.

Speaker 6 My other problem is I just want, as someone who is really, really hoping above all things for grandchildren, I want the vaccine schedule to change for kids. I just think it's gone.

Speaker 5 I think it's gone.

Speaker 6 I don't know why that hasn't changed. I think it will too.
I haven't complained, but I just, if you're asking like my view of it and what I want, I want that because I'm going to have.

Speaker 6 grandchildren and I'm, I think, going to really care about them more than anything. And I don't want them injected with all that stuff at all.
Like, I think, I mean, I really feel.

Speaker 5 I think Bobby Kennedy, he he definitely, I mean, he said he had all of his kids vaccinated, but he wishes he had more information. That's what he keeps saying.

Speaker 5 He just wants us to have more information before we make the same decision with our kids or our grandkids. And what's wrong with that? Why, why shouldn't we know? Like,

Speaker 5 this one's there to prevent a sexually transmitted disease in your one hour year old, right? We should know.

Speaker 6 Well, that's it. It's just, there's, there's a lot of coercion in healthcare.
And I just watched this firsthand with

Speaker 6 a dying parent. And there's, and I think everyone I've ever met, like doctor, especially the nurses, like they're all great people.
They're motivated by the right impulses.

Speaker 6 I think I would not, I don't think they're bad at all. I really admire and love them.
But I think the system they work within pushes toward certain protocols, like with serious vehemence.

Speaker 6 It's like, well, that's what we do. You know, like this person needs, you know, an opiate.
And it's like, well, he doesn't want it, actually. Well, he needs it.
Or this child needs a vaccine.

Speaker 6 Well, I don't think we're going to do that because I don't think my one day old is going to get an STD. Well, we, you know, I think there needs to be more respect for choices.

Speaker 6 Like you should be allowed to turn down certain treatments or prophylactics without being lectured by somebody. Like, I think that's really important.

Speaker 5 For information providing. I mean, like, that's what's been kept from us on the vaccines.
They don't, they don't share.

Speaker 5 To this day, they're not really making a thing out of the myocarditis that is so common with young teenage boys who take the umpteenth COVID booster.

Speaker 5 Like that we know because we're in this ecosystem, but this is not something that they promote or want us to know about. And that's kind of been the theme of our whole discussion today.
Like,

Speaker 5 why can't we talk about it? Why can't we talk about the risks when it comes to Iran? Why can't we talk about potential Israeli overreach when it comes to the war in Gaza?

Speaker 5 Why can't we talk about the downsides of vaccines? Why can't we talk about

Speaker 5 immigration without being called names? Like this, it's a theme.

Speaker 5 And to me, it just gets to the tools that the left use to try to stifle conversation or arguments that might undercut their favorite things. And it's just their day is over, Tucker, and it's over.

Speaker 5 Our day is here where we get to talk about it all.

Speaker 6 It has a, amen, and it has a counterproductive effect. And I see it in myself.
Like, I'm not going to allow myself to become a bigot on the question of Israel, period. I'm just not going to allow it.

Speaker 6 I know that that's a risk. I see other people fall prey to that.
I'm not, I'm not doing that. Period.
So that's not going to happen to me.

Speaker 6 But I do see it happening on medical questions and science questions because I was attacked so viciously for asking questions about the vaccine during COVID.

Speaker 6 And I find myself driven to like an extremist position. Like I'm just not going to the doctor ever.
I'm not going to the doctor. I get cancer.
I'm not taking chemotherapy. That's crazy.

Speaker 6 But I feel that in myself because I'm reacting against unfair attacks on my character just for asking, I thought, pretty normal, low IQ questions, just very simple questions.

Speaker 6 And I am responding to that because every action has an equal and opposite reaction like in life as in physics and we need to check ourselves to make sure that we're not becoming crazy and i just know on healthcare questions i have become crazy like i'm not putting

Speaker 6 i don't know what is wrong with fluoride but it's not in my toothpaste i'm not like i've really gone like to the far extreme like i'm not if a doctor tells me to get a shingles vaccine well he wouldn't because i don't go to the doctor but let's say i went to the doctor and he's like get a shingles vaccine i would like raise my hand fingers and a cross and like back away slowly i don't even know what a a shingles vaccine is.

Speaker 6 I'm just saying. Okay.

Speaker 5 I am

Speaker 6 trying to avoid that.

Speaker 5 Like I got the shingles vaccine because my, well, we had a family member who got shingles. She got it in her eye and then at the tip of her nose and she got scarred from it.

Speaker 5 It was all, I was, I'm too vain, Tucker. You know what, you know, I'm all maha all the way, but it's not going to stop my Botox and my makeup and my hairspray.
And we, we could go.

Speaker 5 Maybe I'm not maha, actually, come to think of it.

Speaker 6 We're honest.

Speaker 6 Is what I love. You're an honest person.

Speaker 6 That's the only thing we should be shooting for is honesty, I think.

Speaker 5 Well, I'm honestly very happy to see you. Thanks for coming on.
All the best. See you soon, I hope.

Speaker 6 Great to see you. Thank you.

Speaker 9 See ya.

Speaker 6 Ah, the best.

Speaker 5 Tucker Carlson, everybody. Check out his show.
I'm sure you have already, but of course, he's crushing it and just one of the most important voices in the American conversation today.

Speaker 5 Thank God for him. Up next, I mentioned it with Tucker.
It is Fentanyl Awareness Day.

Speaker 5 And there are some facts I saw in this documentary that our next guests are going to talk to you about that I had no clue about. And I've covered this kind of story for many, many years.

Speaker 5 And honestly, there was one particular moment, believe it or not, where I thought to myself, the rehabilitation of Vivek Ramaswamy, who got pummeled on making this point. And he was right.

Speaker 5 That's next. Let's be real.
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Speaker 5 I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

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Speaker 5 Today, as we mentioned, is National Fentanyl Awareness Day, and this is this is a real one.

Speaker 5 Honestly, this is not one of those made-up things where it's like, whatever, I don't know what this is, I don't have time.

Speaker 5 We do have to pause and think about

Speaker 5 to remember those who have been lost, but think about the solutions to this problem so we can prevent these unnecessary mass deaths of our young people.

Speaker 5 It is a true crisis in this country. Fentanyl overdose is the leading cause of death in Americans ages 18 to 45.

Speaker 5 I mean, that's the vast swath of living that we do, 18 to 45.

Speaker 5 You're young, you're vibrant, you have it all in front of you at that age, and it's the leading cause of death right now.

Speaker 5 This issue cuts close to the bone for me personally. As I've shared with you before, my sister had an opioid problem through no fault of her own.

Speaker 5 Honestly, she was prescribed this stuff by doctors back in the, you know, era where the doctors were saying to patients, it's not addictive, which is not the same thing as fentanyl.

Speaker 5 Fentanyl is is far more dangerous, frankly, it's more lethal, but it's a similar road.

Speaker 5 And then my dear friend Eric Bowling, who you guys know from Fox News and who's been on this program many, many times, lost his beautiful son, Eric Chase, right after he went off to college from

Speaker 5 a pill that he thought was a Xanax that was laced with fentanyl, which is extremely common.

Speaker 5 And Eric, on one of our very first episodes where we didn't even have video, it was audio only, spoke to what happened.

Speaker 6 We come home from a restaurant.

Speaker 5 I'm sorry, love. I can feel it.

Speaker 5 That's right.

Speaker 6 So we get the call

Speaker 6 that

Speaker 6 he had

Speaker 6 taken what he felt was a

Speaker 6 Xanax that he bought on campus, and it was laced with fentanyl that he didn't know. And he passed.

Speaker 5 It's awful. It's the story for too many young Americans and their devastated families who are left to try to pick up the pieces and forge on.

Speaker 5 This is why we are featuring today a new documentary called Fentanyl Death Incorporated. It's only an hour long and it's so worth your time.

Speaker 5 It's shining the light on just how dire and far-reaching the fentanyl crisis in America really is. Here's a bit from it.
Watch.

Speaker 13 This is the Mexican cartels working with Chinese chemical companies to make pills by the millions, destabilizing the border

Speaker 13 This is the ports of British Columbia, where chemicals to make fentanyl are smuggled in by the tonnage, and Canadian superlabs are producing fentanyl to export to countries around the world.

Speaker 9 These are gangs and drug dealers near you, haphazardly mixing fentanyl powder with other chemicals like xylosine, which is a horse tranquilizer, causing the user's skin to fall off.

Speaker 13 But hey, at least the high last longer.

Speaker 5 Joining me now, Dr. Robert Marbutt, producer of the the documentary, along with Billy Baldwin, actor and narrator of the documentary.
Guys, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 5 It's such a heavy subject, and it's such an important one. And I could not believe the numbers.
Can I just start with this? Dr. Marbutt, I'll start with you.

Speaker 5 The problem, you showed about 28 minutes in the documentary. We all think about the southern border.
All our focus is on the southern border.

Speaker 5 And I mentioned in the teas how Vivek Ramaswamy was right about about something, because at a presidential debate, he said, the northern border.

Speaker 5 And he said, we need to watch the northern border because of fentanyl. And people mocked him because it was like the northern border.

Speaker 5 But you guys make the point in this documentary, it's actually also the East Coast and the West Coast.

Speaker 5 It's the entire border that is being attacked by bad actors trying to flood our country with this poison.

Speaker 10 We have a problem with all of our borders, but a lot of people forget the U.S.-Canadian border is the longest land border between any two countries in the world. So it's not just Blaine, Domain.

Speaker 10 It's also the western frontier of Canada and the eastern side of Alaska.

Speaker 10 We have poorest borders or have had poorest borders all around. And it's not just the southwest border, it's the northern border, and it's our ports of entry, especially on the waterways.

Speaker 5 Exactly. So don't think for one second, just because we're in better control of the southern border right now, that this problem is under control.
It's not.

Speaker 5 And one of the things you learned from the documentary, Billy, is that it doesn't take much at all.

Speaker 5 It's like a grain of salt that can make its way into a pill you thought was, like in Eric Bowling's son's case, a Xanax or like a Percocet or something that young people in particular might be taking, just quote, to take the edge off or just maybe to get a temporary high.

Speaker 5 It only takes a minuscule amount to kill.

Speaker 15 Well, first of all, let me, first of all, thank you so much, Megan, for having me. And, you know, I know Eric indirectly through some college buddies of mine on Wall Street.
And

Speaker 15 I'm getting chilled at a little eclimpt just hearing him.

Speaker 6 His son didn't die in vain.

Speaker 15 And the work that's going on right now will the loss of his son will save thousands and thousands of lives moving forward because we have programs that are working. We do have solutions.

Speaker 15 There is hope.

Speaker 15 But, you know, right now we have 4.2% of the world's population. We consume 38% of the world's fentanyl.
We have 66% of the global deaths from fentanyl.

Speaker 15 A sugar packet, a sweet and low packet, has enough fentanyl in it to kill 500 people in a sugar packet that you get in your coffee in the morning. More people have died.

Speaker 15 from fentanyl since 2019 in four and a half years than every casualty we've taken in World War II, Vietnam, Korea, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, Kosovo, every casualty we've had, we had 58,000 plus die in the 15-year campaign in Vietnam, 58,000 plus.

Speaker 15 We had 100,000 die last year alone. Oh my God.
We had double Vietnam, in double Vietnam in one year.

Speaker 15 And this sounds like, I'll say many controversial things that will probably make you very happy, Megan,

Speaker 15 with my position on this issue.

Speaker 15 But,

Speaker 15 you know,

Speaker 15 it's kind of a blessing. This is a hard thing to say, but it's a blessing that it's not just happening in

Speaker 15 super uneducated, poor Appalachian families or in Compton and in Watts.

Speaker 15 The founder of YouTube, who's a multi-billionaire, her son was at Berkeley a year and a half ago.

Speaker 15 18-year-old freshman. Same exact thing happened.
In our documentary, you have a woman who said her girlfriend never did drugs.

Speaker 15 She woke up one day, had a couple glasses of champagne at a sorority party or something, had a little bit of a hangover. They said, here, take this.
This will make your hangover go away. She took it.

Speaker 15 She went back to bed to sleep off her hangover, never did drugs in her life. And she never woke up.
And this is this, it's such

Speaker 15 a national, absolute catastrophe at this point with the numbers that it's it if it's got everybody's attention on the right on the left in the news media everybody If you had to look at it, Doc, and say, you know, what's causing this, my takeaway from watching the documentary, again, and it's called

Speaker 5 fentanyl deathincorporated.com, and it's going to be hitting soon.

Speaker 5 I would say it's the Chinese who are providing these precursor ingredients, the Mexican cartels.

Speaker 5 which then take it the next level and very haphazardly put together a pill that's meant to resemble something that won't hurt you, but could not care less that it will kill you.

Speaker 5 And then that 38% that Billy just mentioned of Americans who are, these are deaths of despair or decisions of despair to take pills, you know, in a lot of cases, not in all, but to take pills that you don't know the, you know, the provenance of, to try to reach for a high on like a minute's notice, getting something from a stranger and taking enormous risks with your life.

Speaker 5 Your thoughts?

Speaker 10 This whole crisis really got going only 15 years ago. This is a real recent deal.
And we have to understand it really starts with in the United States with the Purdue Pharma crisis and scandal.

Speaker 6 Yes. We had

Speaker 6 millions of people.

Speaker 10 We had millions of people on prescriptions. We had hundreds of thousands addicted.

Speaker 10 And when all the lawsuits happen and all the prescriptions stopped getting handed out, doled out, what happened was the Mexican cartels with China backfilled that supply in as quick as 90 days.

Speaker 10 They're horrible people, horrible actors, but they're incredible entrepreneurs. And they saw a market that was now not being served, and they came in and backfilled it immediately.

Speaker 10 And I think, and I went to China for three weeks on the movie, both research and shooting. And I think in the beginning for China, it was about the money in the very, very beginning.

Speaker 10 But now they've realized they can make money, not spend any of their own, and destabilize their number one adversary while making money.

Speaker 10 And so they had this unholy alliance between the Chinese Communist Party and the Mexican cartels. And now it's moved up to Canada.

Speaker 10 And now you have the biker gangs in Canada backfilling what the biker gangs, they're starting to backfill what the Mexican cartels were starting to do at the beginning.

Speaker 5 You know, it's really crazy because Trump has been in the news for the tariff wars. I mean, for everything, but the tariff wars.

Speaker 5 And one of the things he was saying about Canada was, I want them to crack down on the fentanyl crisis. And I have to admit, a lot of people just kind of laughed at him.

Speaker 5 It's like, Canada is not the problem. Hello, it's Mexico.

Speaker 5 But it wasn't until I saw your film that I was like, oh, my God, actually, Canada is a huge part of the problem, Billy, because these cartels got smart and they realize.

Speaker 5 especially under Trump now, that the southern border is going to be

Speaker 5 more difficult. And because we're so close with Canada, we've kept that much more porous.

Speaker 15 Canada is not only a problem for America. Canada is a problem for Canada.
Vancouver is a war zone right now. Vancouver looks like Portland.
I mean, it's really, really, really getting bad up there.

Speaker 15 And you have to remember, this border is, as Dr. Marvitt said, is the longest land border between two countries in the world.
Plus, we have the U.S. border to the north, not including Alaska.

Speaker 15 And we have patrols that are literally in kayaks, on ATVs,

Speaker 15 on mountain bikes, and they can't cover it all. Many of the people on the northern border that are working for border patrol are processing people being deported on the southern border.

Speaker 15 They're doing paperwork. The northern patrol is doing the paperwork for people that are guarding the border in the south.
So we need to border, we need to beefen up the

Speaker 15 northern border. And as you said, this is not going to be addressed only on the supply side.

Speaker 15 The Mexican president, current Mexican president and previous Mexican president will tell you we can take out one or two cartels and five or six will grow back as long as the demand is there.

Speaker 15 And if we're 4% of the world's population consuming nearly 40%

Speaker 15 of this drug and the profit is there, if you take care of one cartel, someone else is going to come in from the Gulf of Mexico, or they're going to come in from Cape Patters, or they're going to come in from

Speaker 15 on a kayak. I mean, right now, as you saw in the documentary, there is a park.
in BC called Peace Arch Park.

Speaker 15 And the beauty of our relationship with Canada is they want people to walk through the arch of the park and go to the other side of the border and put down a blanket and have a barbecue, not have a barbecue, have a picnic there.

Speaker 15 And that's the beauty of our open border. Well, guess what? People are coming to that border with a backpack on.
They walk across the border. They get in an Uber.

Speaker 15 They go to Spokane or Seattle or Portland with 5,000 hits of fentanyl. And that's how it's getting across the border through Peace Arch Park.

Speaker 5 And the film documents also at the southern border, how they are very clever, the cartels. They will intentionally send

Speaker 5 people to sneak across the border, which they know will attract the border patrol.

Speaker 5 And they know exactly how many border patrol agents they are to this area over here on the left, leaving open the area on the right and relatively unpatrolled.

Speaker 5 And that's where they'll send across the carriers with the fentanyl because the whole thing is a decoy to really get the drugs across the border and into the country.

Speaker 5 That's much more lucrative for them than just sending whatever, getting paid to get people into the country illegally. So it's extremely sophisticated.
And

Speaker 5 not only do we even talk about yet the cargo ships that come in,

Speaker 5 huge, huge cargo ships. We check less than 1% of these.
I think it's even lower than that. And many of them have boxes and boxes of this stuff.
So we're just, it's coming in from all angles.

Speaker 5 And Doc, you go through in the film how this thing, A, originated, how it came about, because it like wasn't a thing.

Speaker 5 in the recent past. It's a relatively new phenomenon.
And also, just for those listening at at home, the fact that Narcan will not save you from a fentanyl overdose. I think most people think it can.

Speaker 5 That's that drug they want you to have around in case somebody ODs at a frat party or whatever. Narcan will not be of any use to you if somebody ODs on this drug.

Speaker 10 And what we're starting to see now is fentanyl is getting mixed with so many different things, like horse tranquilizer,

Speaker 10 even meth. And so you have a high and a downer at the same thing, and it's really wreaking havoc on your heart.

Speaker 10 And what we have to think about is things like Narcan are purely a short-term fix, and it will not fix the long run. It will not fix the intermediate.

Speaker 10 And unless we start thinking about treatment and recovery and not getting addicted in the first place, Narcan will just postpone the death to another day unless you start get the treatment and the recovery going.

Speaker 10 And in the United States, we have really made it easy to get high and hard to get treatment rather than making it easy to get treatment and hard to get high.

Speaker 5 That's one of the stunning things. Bill, you watch this film and we've covered it as a news show.

Speaker 5 City after city has provided like clean needles or even a nurse who will be with you when you inject your drug or take your drug to make sure you don't die.

Speaker 5 And you make the point over and over, you can find that very easily in the United States, finding treatment and rehabilitary systems or spots, much, much harder.

Speaker 5 And if you do find a place that's like a drug rehab that really works, they tend to be exorbitantly priced. Most people can't afford them.
It's just incredibly hard to get help.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I think

Speaker 15 the left policies over the last 15 years of no harm and low harm were very, very well intended.

Speaker 15 They haven't produced the results that they had hoped. They have to course correct.
Ironically, the providing a safe place to get high was not a left policy.

Speaker 15 That was the police department that didn't want to spread their resources out over many, many different places in say in Portland or in Spokane or in Sacramento.

Speaker 15 And they wanted to provide this so they could monitor it and control and make sure they were keeping people alive. That was a policing tactic.
But low bar and no bar.

Speaker 15 is a big problem because they in California and in Portland and Seattle, they were talking about providing housing.

Speaker 15 Well, it's great when you take a mentally ill addict who's homeless and provide housing. You've checked one box, they're no longer homeless, but

Speaker 15 they're still mentally ill and they're still addicted to fentanyl. So, you know, it leads us to when I have this conversation and I say it's going to require the kind of services that Dr.

Speaker 15 Marbutt's providing for his haven of hope in San Antonio that services 2,700 people with a success rate of over 70%, getting people on their feet, off out of the system, off the services, totally self-sufficient, totally independent.

Speaker 15 And when I talk about 360 degree universal care, they're like, whoa, that sounds incredibly expensive. How are we going to, who's going to pay for that?

Speaker 15 And I say, you're already paying too much for not enough results. Right now, you call 911.

Speaker 15 Fire department, police department, sheriffs, paramedics respond. You pay.
They go to the emergency room, you pay. They get admitted, you pay.

Speaker 15 They go into the legal system, judges, lawyers, courtrooms, you pay. They get incarcerated, you pay.
Let's go downtown, Main Street. We were in Seattle.

Speaker 15 This gentleman, 21-year-old kid, blessing, was overdosing. They hit him with Narcan, revived him.
They hit him with paddles, got his heart started again. He vomited.

Speaker 15 He turned around and said to the fire department, get lost. I don't want your help.
That was right in front of the wharf in Seattle.

Speaker 15 the original Starbucks store, and he was laying on the ground in front of the Nike store. You have to say,

Speaker 15 how is that affecting

Speaker 15 tourism, commerce, small business administration, property values? They're all declining in Northwestern cities. And we have to course correct.
We have to provide

Speaker 15 these universal services, 360 services, because you're already paying too much to not get enough results.

Speaker 15 And Marvin, maybe you want to jump in here with some of the results of the care that's going on at Johns Hopkins and with Citigate and with you at Haven for Hope.

Speaker 10 Think about this case with blessing that Billy and I saw.

Speaker 6 We had four firemen arrive.

Speaker 10 We had two EMS arrive. We had two sheriff people arrive.
We had three local downtown ambassadors arrive. These are all taxpayer funded people.

Speaker 10 And they worked on him, got him alive enough, and then he refused treatment. He refused going.

Speaker 10 And so that's why places like Johns Hopkins in Baltimore Baltimore has a program with the Helping Up Mission, and they're working together.

Speaker 10 So you have a secular university and a faith-based Christian mission working together, and they're having phenomenal success.

Speaker 10 So we know how to do this, and we know how to do it right, but it takes time.

Speaker 10 It's not going to be, you're not going to take somebody who's been addicted to drugs for 20 years and do it in a 28-day program or a 14-day program.

Speaker 10 You need multiple months, but in the end, it's much more cost-effective to get success in real treatment and real recovery than the short-term expenses of band-aids that are the police department, the fire department, emergency room, emergency department, and the court systems.

Speaker 5 Let me ask you this, Doc. I don't understand totally because people can take fentanyl without dying.

Speaker 5 I remember, you know, 15 years ago, I think my mom had a back surgery and they gave her a fentanyl lollipop. And this is before that word meant anything to anybody.
You know, I was like, what's that?

Speaker 5 But boy, she was flying high.

Speaker 5 And so it's not like if you just touch fentanyl or taste fentanyl, you'll die. But what's happening? Like, is it corrupted fentanyl that's going into these pills?

Speaker 5 Like, because I use the term OD on fentanyl, which that's not exactly it. Like, just a small, tiny amount of one time with fentanyl can kill you.

Speaker 10 There's a huge difference between medical-grade fentanyl, like a cancer patch for stage three, stage four cancer patients, or the lollipop post-surgery, or candidly, medical fentanyl has made heart surgery possible.

Speaker 10 I mean, it's perfect because it slows your heart rate down, it slows your breathing down. So, fentanyl for open heart surgery is critical.

Speaker 10 But the difference is when you're in those situations, they're highly regulated, and the dosing is very, very precise and done with precision.

Speaker 10 And when you're in a medical situation, you have multiple people monitoring you. The problem with street-level fentanyl, illicit fentanyl that's on the street, there is no regulation.

Speaker 10 And so they make this batch not in a white glove lab. It's done in a jungle, a back alley, a burnout bus.

Speaker 10 And you don't know what you're getting. It's a mix.
There's no, it's not equal at the same time. You might get part of the batch that has a lot of fentanyl and the other part has none of it.

Speaker 10 And so street level illicit fentanyl is totally different than the fentanyl you get in a hospital.

Speaker 5 Megan, and then on top of that, they mislabel it. Yeah, go ahead, Billy.

Speaker 15 You know, getting back to this kid, Blessing, he was gone. He was flatlined.
They revived him. He vomited and turned over and said,

Speaker 15 I refuse your help. And the reason they do this is not just because the high is so good.

Speaker 15 They do this because because the way they feel emotionally, psychologically, and physically when they're not on the drug is so terrifying,

Speaker 15 it's so painful to them that they would rather risk their life. We were speaking to the fire department in Spokane, and they had a 911 call for the same person six times in one day.

Speaker 15 And this leads me to something that's radical that I'm going to say that doesn't sound very left because they talk about the freedom, the freedom, the freedom.

Speaker 15 Someone does have the freedom to get high. Someone does have the freedom to be homeless.
Someone Someone has the freedom to do drugs. And if they overdose and they die, that is free.

Speaker 15 But not what it costs you and me, the taxpayers, money.

Speaker 15 That's not freedom for us to have to pay for the emergency room and for incarceration and for all the different ways in which this is affecting our lives. So I've done conservatorships before.

Speaker 15 A definition of a conservatorship is a threat to your life and others, or

Speaker 15 you harm yourself or others. Clearly, this kid blessing was a threat to himself and others, overdosing and flatlining on the street.
Clearly, he was a harm to himself and others.

Speaker 15 I am suggesting, and I am not an expert, I want to leave it to the professionals, the paramedics, the lawyers, the doctors, all of those people that have the nonprofits that have their sleeves rolled up and they're getting their hands dirty in literally in the encampments, like I did for a long time, but the encampments and the shelters.

Speaker 15 I want to give them the ability to take conservatorship out of

Speaker 15 the courts. And if blessing says, no, I'm not going, and a fireman and a paramedic and a sheriff or a cop or a non-profit say

Speaker 15 you're going

Speaker 15 and that person is taken against their will because they are clearly a threat to themselves and others and they have clearly harmed themselves and if you put it in the court system it's a ticking clock it's a ticking bomb where you're waiting for them to potentially harm somebody else so i don't know how long they should be held But a 72-hour hold is probably not long enough from what I've learned.

Speaker 15 So if they're held five, seven, 10 days, days, and they can get to a more detox, clear-headed position where they say, you're right, I do need the services, I do need the help, I'll go into a three or four-month program.

Speaker 15 Or if they say, no, I want to go back on the streets, at least they've done it from a more sober, clear-headed perspective.

Speaker 15 And I'm wondering if we should take the conservatorships as a pilot program, take it away from the judges and the lawyers in the courtrooms, and put it in the hands of people that know far better than they do.

Speaker 5 That makes perfect sense because you point out in the documentary that

Speaker 5 you actually can't detox off of fentanyl on your own. You actually must have medical assistance there, Doc.
So

Speaker 5 why would we be taking the word of an active addict to fentanyl for anything on the street?

Speaker 5 Why wouldn't there be a mandatory, no, you're going into mandatory detox where for five to seven days, whatever the appropriate period is, we will get you off this drug and then we can talk about what comes next.

Speaker 10 We have some people from Seattle in our documentary address this.

Speaker 10 They say if you were to go and go on a bridge and say you're going to commit suicide and get ready to jump and somebody calls 911 or you get one of those bridge phones that they call, the police come, they don't just sit there and take you off the bridge and say, well, are you okay?

Speaker 10 You promised not to jump. We'll leave you right there and then roll on.
They take you there.

Speaker 10 Why is that not different with fentanyl? Because we know fentanyl is so deadly now. You will not meet somebody who is a fentanyl addict that's been on fentanyl for over 18 months.

Speaker 10 Most addicts die within eight or nine months. A few will make it out to 18 months.
So why would we not treat you like a jumper? Why wouldn't we treat you like we need to take you in?

Speaker 10 We need medical detox because that's the only way you're going to get down. And after you go, and we're not talking years of holding, we're talking five, six, seven, eight, nine days.

Speaker 10 Get past that medical recovery and then have an honest conversation, a clear-headed conversation about what do we need to do for treatment and recovery.

Speaker 10 Because Billy and I have gone in multiple cities around this country with police departments, and we roll up. on these fentanyl desks.

Speaker 10 They're literally dead on the street and they get them recovered, they get them back, and they refuse to go in and treatment. And they're not

Speaker 10 in a place mentally to make a clean-headed decision to say, I want to go in.

Speaker 5 No, you point out in the film, some of these people have taken a fentanyl version that's mixed with this horse tranquilizer,

Speaker 5 which literally makes their skin peel off of their bodies. And you show pictures of people this is happening to.
This is not a person who is in a position to make the right decisions for his wellness.

Speaker 5 But back to the other issue, too, I wanted to ask you this, Billy. When I was at NBC, I interviewed this family, the Savage family.

Speaker 5 And they had, I think, four boys, and the two oldest boys were 18 and 19.

Speaker 5 And they did not OD on fentanyl, but they came back from college. The one came back from college, I think the other was a senior in high school.
She waited up for them. They got home at midnight.

Speaker 5 And unbeknownst to her, they had, prior to leaving this party, both taken a pill that they thought was like a Xanax or something like that.

Speaker 5 And it was an opiate, an opioid of some kind, and it killed them both. And this poor mom woke up the next morning thinking her kids were safe asleep.

Speaker 5 She had seen them home from the party, only to wake up the next morning to find out her 18 and 19 year old boys. I know it's horrific.
But one of the things she said to me was, I'm a nurse.

Speaker 5 And her husband was there too. And they said, we talk to our boys about drugs, about all the dangers.
You know, we were aware of the dangers, but we hadn't thought about

Speaker 5 this. Like a friend gives you a pill at a party and you should not trust it, or you're at a friend's house and they take a bottle out of their mom's medicine cabinet.

Speaker 15 Yeah,

Speaker 15 my friends laugh when I say this because I say to my children all the time, when I was in college, someone would walk up and you'd have, I went to Binghamton and you'd have people from Albany and from Cornell and from Syracuse come to visit for the weekend.

Speaker 15 And somebody would walk up that was your buddy, but their friends from Syracuse and Albany would walk up and somebody would light up a joint and say, yo, you want to hit? They start passing it around.

Speaker 15 I said to my children, those days are over. You literally put your drink down and you go to the bathroom.
You come back and the drink's still there, throw it out. Go make yourself another drink.

Speaker 15 Those days are over. And when I have this sort of bring your own stash mentality, My kids are like, oh, great parenting there, Baldwin, great parenting there.

Speaker 15 But I know the kids are going to do some of this that they're going to have. They're in college.
My kids go to USC. They're going to

Speaker 15 have a beer. They're going to have a cocky.
They're going to have a tequila. They're going to have a joint.
You just have to be very, very careful.

Speaker 15 Another point I wanted to touch upon, which I think is important, Megan, is the criminalization of this.

Speaker 15 Generations ago,

Speaker 15 my father's generation, when people got in trouble, judges would say, I'm going to give you a choice.

Speaker 15 You've got five years in jail or you got five years in the army.

Speaker 15 You choose.

Speaker 15 And it would depend on the type of crime, all sorts of of variables, but they gave them a choice to either go to prison or to go into the service to rehabilitate. Turned a lot of lives around.

Speaker 15 We have to raise this from a misdemeanor to a felony. We have to get a lot of this into drug court.

Speaker 15 And we have to say to a lot of these people, you're going to prison for two years, not just dealers, repeat offenders that are users. You're going to prison for two years.

Speaker 15 or you're going to a government paid for facility. The government will pay for it.

Speaker 15 You choose six months in rehab or two years in prison you're going to one or the other you're not going back out on the street they have to choose the legality of this by the way what years were you at bighamton can i ask that 81 to 85.

Speaker 5 oh yeah you're a little before my time but i was at syracuse i was at syracuse 88 to 92.

Speaker 15 my mother my father and all four of my grandparents graduated from syracuse Oh, nice.

Speaker 5 Go orange.

Speaker 6 All right.

Speaker 5 Well, so I was not offered a joint by you because we weren't in the same place at the same time.

Speaker 15 Let's not pretend nobody ever offered you a a joint, okay? Because I know that.

Speaker 6 I've been offered,

Speaker 5 but can I say my audience knows I've never tried a drug? I mean, I've done alcohol, but that's it. No drugs.
I don't know. I'm sort of a Pollyanna, I guess, in that lane.

Speaker 5 But, Doc, I mean, even more so now, I mean, I'll talk to my kids about this too. Like, you can't take a pill.
You can't take a thing. You think you're not taking fentanyl?

Speaker 5 You think you're taking like a muscle relaxant or something to take the edge off before a big exam.

Speaker 5 What you're really taking is your life in your hands.

Speaker 10 And you had Tom Wolf there in the

Speaker 10 bumper right up in the front there. 70% of all street-level drugs now have some part of fentanyl in it.

Speaker 10 And when you're talking about two grains of salt equivalent can kill anybody, or one grain of rice can kill 15 people of equivalent of. fentanyl.

Speaker 10 So we have to realize how potent these drugs are, especially fentanyl. And the idea that we legalize fentanyl,

Speaker 10 many states across the country legalized fentanyl, either by statute and said, we're no longer going to prosecute, or by prosecutors choosing not to prosecute.

Speaker 10 The good news is, even in states like California, this was sort of lost in the presidential election, but the voters of California voted to override the California legislature and say, we're now going to start recriminalizing high-end and high-volume, really potent drugs and high-volume drugs.

Speaker 10 And the citizens of California overrode their legislature two to one, saying, we want to get back and recriminalize this.

Speaker 10 This idea of misdemeanor or saying we're never going to prosecute for something as powerful as fentanyl just was nutty.

Speaker 10 I know it may have been well intended, but it did not work.

Speaker 5 All right. So last but not least,

Speaker 5 fentanyl deathincorporated.com. But when they go there, the movie's not yet posted.

Speaker 5 When is it actually going to be posted? Because now they're going to want to watch it.

Speaker 10 It'll be coming out. Warner Brothers is our partner in this project, and they'll be able to see it streaming this coming summer.
And Warner Brothers will be pushing it out on multiple platforms.

Speaker 5 Okay, well, we'll give it another push when it hits. You guys let us know.
This is too important. And I really appreciate you doing this.
I'll just say this before you go, to you in particular, Billy.

Speaker 5 We've had some actors who get behind a cause of one sort or another, and they won't come on the show because they think I'm a conservative or my audience is more conservative.

Speaker 5 And I find it just shameful because conservatives have kids too, and they have addiction problems too.

Speaker 5 And I really respect the fact that I'm sure we disagree on virtually all matters political, but that you came here anyway out of respect to my audience.

Speaker 15 Well, I'm thrilled that you had me. I'll come back again.
And you should know that Marburt and I thought we would disagree on everything.

Speaker 15 And we were making a scripted feature on homelessness called No Address. And we sat in the lobby after on the set and in the lobby.

Speaker 15 And all we did was discuss issue after issue after issue where we thought we were on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Speaker 15 And we realized that 80% of it we agree on, 10% is negotiable, and 10% will never agree on.

Speaker 15 And we live in this world where we're being driven apart, where we have more in common, there's more consensus, there's more agreement than

Speaker 15 people realize

Speaker 15 on controversial issues.

Speaker 5 Yeah, as you proved here today.

Speaker 6 Thank you.

Speaker 15 Easy to work on mental health, easy to work on homelessness, mental health, and fentanyl. Trickier to work on the Second Amendment or campaign finance reform or something like that.

Speaker 15 But you'd be surprised

Speaker 15 how much we have in common on that issue, Megan.

Speaker 5 Well, and one day we have to talk about the fact that you went to high school with the accused Long Island serial killer.

Speaker 15 Seventh grade through 12th grade. Yes, Rex Hueman was.

Speaker 15 I was class president. He'd see me and say, How are you doing, Billy? Rex, what's going on? We were in classes together.
My lifeguard stand at Tobey Beach was 500 feet from that burial in Gilgo.

Speaker 6 Oh my god,

Speaker 15 yeah, yeah. He was sort of ran with a group of kids that didn't, they were like

Speaker 15 AV squad guys. They were like tech geeks before the internet.
Yep. Yeah, he ran with a group of guys like that, very bright.
And yeah.

Speaker 5 I got it, just asking when you heard the story, did your jaw drop? Were you like, what?

Speaker 15 Yeah, it's funny. One of my friends from Mass People sent this to me and goes, you're not going to believe this breaking story.

Speaker 15 And I put out a tweet that said, I just woke up this morning to find out that Rex Huerman, the Gilgo Beach killer, was my, not my friend or my buddy or anything, but my classmate that I knew for six years.

Speaker 15 And

Speaker 15 that got a lot of interest. People were reaching.
It was very stunning because people said, did you see it coming? And I absolutely did not see it coming. Absolutely did not see it.

Speaker 15 He did. He wasn't a super loner.
He wasn't a person that you would ever suspect it was like, you know, harming animals in his backyard or in his bedroom. Nothing like that.
Nothing like that.

Speaker 15 Some of his best friends were my neighbors where I grew up in Massapequa.

Speaker 15 And there were guys that they did get bullied a little bit, some of those guys, but I don't know where it all went off the rails and where it went wrong.

Speaker 13 I don't know.

Speaker 15 Tragic. Never know.

Speaker 5 Guys, thank you again so much. Again, I want to tell the audience, go check it out, fentanildeincorporated.com and think about what we talked about today.

Speaker 5 Have that tough conversation with your kids, even if you think you've already had it, and with your friends, and with everybody you possibly can, because too many people think they know and they don't.

Speaker 5 All the best to you guys. God bless.

Speaker 15 You too.

Speaker 5 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly Show: No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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