Rahm Emanuel on How the Dems Lost Their Way and Trump's Immigration Successes, Plus, Mark Halperin, Link Lauren and Dan Turrentine | Ep. 1112

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Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at Noon East.

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly.

Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, coming to you live today from the SiriusXM headquarters in New York City.

We are only six months into President Trump's historic second term, but that has not stopped speculation about who's going to run for president in 2028.

I gave a speech, as you guys guys know,

last week out in Vail, and everyone there wanted to know who's the likely next Republican and who's the likely next Dem.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I keep seeing the same names you guys are seeing.

And over on Team Blue, one name keeps coming up is Rahm Emmanuel.

Okay, he's the former Chicago mayor.

He was Obama's one-time White House chief of staff.

He certainly has a top-shelf political resume and is deeply connected to the Democrats' massive fundraising operation.

And unlike some of the loons over on the other side, he's a centrist.

He's an actual centrist.

We've talked about his potential candidacy many times here on the Megan Kelly show.

Is he too centrist for his party?

He's made a lot of enemies inside the Democratic Party over the years, and we'll ask him about how that might affect his potential chances.

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Joining me now to discuss his life and career and future potential political career is Rom Emmanuel.

Ron, welcome.

Thank you.

Great to have you.

Thanks for having me.

So what are you doing here on the Megan Kelly Show?

I got a free hour.

I thought I'd just come by, swing by.

Yeah.

I thought there was lunch.

I thought we were going to have

to.

We're going to have brunch or something.

There will be.

We'll have ice cream.

We'll have bonbons.

To talk about the issues, talk about things.

But you...

You know, a lot of Democrats won't come on the show because they don't want to talk to somebody like me.

So why would you?

Well, I mean, you kind of started it because you've brought me up before.

And I thought, well, if you're going to bring me up a couple of times, I'll come on the show since my favorite subject is me.

I thought I'd do that.

No, but to talk about things.

And, you know, you say from Team Blue, which is fair.

I get that.

But, you know, I think you would agree.

And I think your listeners would.

There's Team USA before there's Team Blue and Team Red.

I know.

We see everything through the political lens.

Yeah.

Just because that's what we do.

So that's why.

And I, you know, people have opinions.

I'm going to talk about

what I think and also, you know, kind of just rip the mask off.

All right.

Let's start with this because, you know, I came of age as a reporter at Fox News.

And I, my show.

There's a 10-step program for that.

I'm not looking to recover, though.

There were some years where I was.

And my friend Sean Hannity used to refer to you every night as ROM Deadfish Emmanuel.

And there is a story behind that.

Yeah.

What happened?

Okay, so you got a,

I don't know how much time, but I'll cycle it fast.

It's good.

1988, chair, I'm a political director of the Democratic Congressional Campaign, Political.

And it's the presidential year, George Washington.

Kemp seat upstate New York.

We have this.

Yeah.

Dave Schwartz, candidate

clerk of the county.

And he said that if he gets within a single digit, he's going to take a second mortgage.

We go from 36 down.

24 down, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then all of a sudden a poll comes back and it was, you know, five polls in a row.

He's just four or five points, six points, narrowing it, near and nearing it.

And it blows up 18.

And

about four, and so he says, forget about it.

It's like nine days out.

Wait, wait, refresh me.

Who's winning and who's losing?

The Republicans winning?

The Republicans winning, but the Democrats closing in consistently over two months.

Okay, he's going to be sports.

And

then goes, blows back out 18 points.

And the campaign manager figures out that the pollster

had pulled the wrong group.

And obviously we weren't going to win a lot of races, but to symbolically win in 1988

Jack Kemp's seat would have

bigger than a single district.

It would have big national import.

And it was too late then with seven days to go to really impact.

Dave Schwartz goes on to lose by a few points in a presidential year.

So myself and a number of people sent the Democratic pollster.

a dead fish for costing us a C.

And I happen to sign it out.

It was great working with you, et cetera.

So

the pollster comes back after two weeks.

The dead fish was in a box.

Oh, God.

And opens it up stinking, da-da-da, sends me this long eight-page single-spaced letter of how horrible it was working for me.

And then this moment in time becomes kind of mythological of that.

So that's where.

Did you like it?

Did you like the reputation or you don't like it?

It's, I, you know, like all things, not you, just because you work at Fox doesn't capture who you are, doesn't capture who I am.

When it comes to my kids, I'm quick to a tear.

You wouldn't know that.

When it comes to other people's kids, I'm also quick to a tear.

I get very emotional.

My kids always say, you're not allowed to talk about us, grandpa, or dad.

And on the other hand, I did it, so I own it, and I did do it because he cost us a seat because he made a mistake.

But see, and I'm unmerciful in that sense when it came to winning.

Well, this is probably why I'm saying

also, not to interrupt you.

No, go ahead.

This is your show, after all.

Is I'm a middle child, and I always joke that middle children wrote a book, War or Peace.

We could do either one.

But I think this is actually to your advantage in capturing this nomination, because I think the country likes a strong man, even though we were kind of pretending we didn't for a while.

And I think Democrats are in need.

of a strong man.

I mean, I think the too many in the party have gone along with the like, no, we have to be, you know, everyone's toxically masculine and we have to over-correct the other way.

And you keep putting out.

I don't know the words, Tecumba, yeah.

So here's my

thing: is

one is when I'm having worked for both President Clinton and President Obama.

And if you look at, and also an avid reader of presidential history, history, and in general, there are three qualities a president and a presidential candidate have to project: strength, confidence, and optimism.

Nobody, if you look at history, Kennedy versus Nixon, just go through it.

We never nominate the weaker

or the more indecisive or the less optimistic, just full-blown.

Second,

and then that's on a comparative basis.

And second,

winning is important.

And I do think there's a currency in our party, and this is my theory of the case at least, where both candor, authenticity, and strength have a currency and have a blame.

I kind of say that, and then there was an article the other day, and

I forgot what paper paper it was, either the Washington Post or Political, that said Democrats were studying authenticity.

Well, you can't study authenticity either.

That's such a kind of like, what's wrong?

You can't manufacture your authenticity.

You either are who you are or you're not, and I'm comfortable with who I am.

They're studying, too, how to speak to young men.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you know why they're doing that?

Well, one is there's a simple,

they've lost it with young men for a whole host of reasons.

And the other thing is because for you date your time there, I said, basically, COVID forward, maybe even a little before that,

our party had everybody, including ourselves, walking on eggshells.

Like it was so PC, you couldn't even, God forbid, you had to thought privately to yourself and you were scared and jumped.

And literally, you had this kind of flinch all the time.

And that's ridiculous.

And people did not, and not just young men, it was also, if you look at the data, even young women were tired of basically just a PC type thinking and talking about stuff, and also this idea that you had to walk on eggshells.

But the truth is, Republicans have the same kind of thing where people jump on them all the time, et cetera, inside their own party.

It's not, they're not PC, though.

It's for different issues.

I mean, if you criticize President Trump within the Republican Party, depending on who you're talking to, you could get blowback.

Though I think Republicans are more fractured and always have been than Democrats.

I feel like Democrats stick together.

You know,

we both admire the other party's sense of loyalty.

So do you feel like Democrats are more fractured internally in general as a group than Republicans are?

Well, it's kind of Mark Twain's original.

I'm a part of no organized party.

I'm a Democrat.

Look, I think Democrats, as you can see recently, have a little bit of a firing spot in the circle.

Take a look recently.

People, you can say whatever you want, and I have my disagreements, a lot of them, countless with President Trump, but he has brought us a level.

of discipline and loyalty.

Take a look at this.

On the big, beautiful bill, which I have my own criticisms of.

People have voted for something they criticized, and now, as soon as they've done it, they're trying to earbrush their record.

Take a look at Senator Hawley.

He's now introduced, trying to eliminate all the Medicaid cuts that he just voted for.

That was a big deal.

So, has the president brought loyalty?

There's an example A of what kind of loyalty he's brought.

Do you feel like the Dems have changed on the over-the-top PC language police?

I mean, because that's trickled down.

I know you care deeply about education.

That's trickled down into my kids' single-digit education all the way up through high school.

some elements, yes, and some elements, this is what does,

when you get to education.

I mean, to me, you know, at another point in my life, early, before I decided to go into public service or politics, I was going to be an early childhood educator.

That's what interested me.

My dad was a pediatrician.

It was something that drew me.

And there is this kind of,

you know, the fundamentals of education.

we have missed.

We now have the worst reading scores in 30 years, the worst math scores, and we're focused on everything but the most important thing, which is why you have three children, I have three children, why parents send kids to school to support the type of education we also try to do at home.

And we've gotten focused, as I said, on things like bathroom access rather than classroom excellence.

We've gotten focused, and I'm sensitive, to

one person's pronoun versus the other 35 kids in the class that don't know what a pronoun is.

And I'm sorry, 35 kids not knowing what a pronoun is, having your worst reading scores and math scores in 30 years.

we have a crisis on hand.

Going back to Ronald Reagan's time where Bloom wrote the report, A Nation at Crisis, we're back to where we started, and we better focus on the priority.

This is tomorrow.

These are our kids.

And I do think not just Democrats, but everybody,

from the naming of a school to bathroom access to who's playing in what sports.

And the fundamental, we've lost sight of the, you know, the forest for the trees.

And I think that's really, and we're supposed to be the adults and take care of our kids and nurture them.

Oh, I don't disagree.

We need to work on the basic reading and math scores, but I feel like the Democrats are the ones who introduce things like pronouns and the bathroom access.

And those of us on what I call the side of sanity stood up to say, no, you're not putting your six foot tall boy in my daughter's eighth grade soccer class or

gym class.

And that doesn't make me the one trying to ignore what's important about math and reading.

It's a Democrat-created problem.

Well,

let me back you up a little.

Not wrong about those examples.

And we have a, and I want to say one thing here, and I do a shout-out for Mississippi.

It's called the Mississippi Miracle.

10 years ago, they started this.

Very tough demographics.

Their reading excellence, unbelievable, Alabama on math.

And I would nationalize that.

I would say we're taking this at large because they've shown with some of the toughest constituencies, poor kids,

children from single-parent homes, black kids, to make major gains in both math and reading.

That's A.

B, yes, Democrats played a role, but there's also politicization, culture wars by Republicans on what topics we're allowed to talk about, how we're allowed to talk about them.

Do I think Democrats led that in kind of this whole pronoun debate?

No doubt.

And that's why they basically, and it's gotten us sidetracked.

And we're stuck in a cold, not only a party, but more importantly, a country.

And it's why, I'm going to be honest, I have my own view on what I would do on education.

I call it turret if I could.

T for technology, and we should get kids ready with AI capabilities.

A for attendance.

We have a massive post-COVID attendance problem.

It's triple digits from where it was.

And I would have a national,

more than 7%, you repeat the clite.

And absenteeism in a lot of the big cities.

You have kids graduating high school with a 20% absentee rate.

That means they're not graduating.

They don't have the skills to go on to college and it's going to be remedial education.

We're pretending.

Right.

R for reading and using the Mississippi example to blow it up nationally, take it to every state.

And T for truth.

Parents should know where their kids are every grade level on national standards and where their kids' schools are.

at meeting those national levels for every grade.

To me, if you do the type of thing, we can start to focus again again on the most important thing

why I as a parent of three, why you as a parent of three, why a parent of two, one, whatever, send those kids to school.

It's why parents move, like I said, like I say, as a mayor of the city of Chicago, you know how I knew a school was doing a neighborhood was doing well?

On the real estate form, they would say they're here in this school district.

That meant that school district became a magnet for that area.

And to me, that's the most important thing because we live in a time where you earn what you learn.

And we need to ensure that every child has a chance to live up to their potential.

And it only, it starts at school.

But I would also, I used to, I fundamentally believe this and I,

there are three doors a child walks through that will explain their future.

The front door of the home, the front door of the school, and the

front door of the place of worship.

And if those three doors are aligned, I don't care your zip code.

I don't care your family background.

I don't care your income.

That child's got a future.

You know, I love hearing that.

And I think we need to get back to that kind of a focus.

I just, I have my doubts because my own experience has been with a, you know, a rising, as I say, about to go into sixth grade, ninth grade, and tenth grade

errors.

is there's just been so much ideological nonsense shoved down their throats.

And we came out of New York City privates.

That's where we were up until we fled in 2021 to get away from that and move to Connecticut.

But it was so over the top, Rom.

I mean, you want them to focus on reading.

Now, obviously, New York City private schools are elite schools.

They don't have to worry about reading scores and math generally there.

But my point is, in these schools, my boy school, they took three weeks to devote to transgenderism.

Three weeks at an all-boy school trying to get these boys to spend time on whether you're sure you're a boy, might you not be totally sure, raise your fist, five if you're totally sure, four if you're only a little, I mean, it was crazy showing them videos

of men and boys and skirts and dresses and makeup.

Crazy indoctrination.

And it's not just New York City, you know, so it's like, to me, it's so much more than a culture war.

It's, you're messing with a child's mental health mother.

It's abusive.

There's no, look,

again, I'm going to get back, the three doors.

Your kids are going to be okay.

They come from a loving, I don't know you, they come from a loving home and they have the sport.

They basically school backs up.

the education of child, which is my one, if I can take a side note.

I totally hate this term homeschooled.

Every child's homeschooled.

Every child.

It's a horrible term because it assumes that, no, every child's homeschooled.

The school reinforces the capabilities that the home nurtures.

And the other door, the place of worship, which is important for a child's total character development.

Very true.

Okay, now.

Was and is and does it continue cultural wars in this country?

Yeah, it does.

I happen to think it happens on both sides.

That's the way I look at it, et cetera.

Things that are like topics like slavery that are totally kind of trying to be earbrushed out of history books.

That's a cultural war.

You may not see it the same way.

I think you do.

The fact is, we teach kids, and we should basically focus on the fundamentals and get back to the fundamentals.

I do think as it relates to,

and I did this as mayor 2016, ambassador I worked with,

you got an issue and you're working through on your pronoun, et cetera.

I respect that.

I come from an inclusive kind of culture, but it is not the preoccupation for the rest of the class.

The preoccupation for the class.

So you want the schools to stop pushing that stuff?

Yeah, here's my thing.

I get, look, in 2016, I signed and passed the ordinance in the city council as it relates to bathroom access.

But my focus as mayor was on graduation rates.

But in that, just to be clear, in that, you were on the side of the trans people having access to the bathroom of choice.

Yeah, we dealt with that.

It was an issue.

I'll give you that.

Trump was also on that same side back in 2016, but has changed.

Have you changed?

No, my position, no, not from an inclusive standpoint.

My point is, though, it's not the dominant issue.

I get it.

And so to me.

But to a lot of us, it's really important.

I get that.

And you'll make choices.

Well, that's why I'm trying to.

I'm not trying to nail you down on where you are.

I got what you're trying to do, and I'm trying to be the ballet dancer I was.

I know.

But if you're going to really run for this position,

you're going to have to take a position.

Here's the thing.

I'll give you an example.

When I was an ambassador to Japan, I had trans people working at an embassy.

We worked on what our job was.

That wasn't the focus.

I respected what you made a choice.

And also, they're an adult.

You're talking about kids slightly very different.

Very, very different.

And a parent has a right to speak up at the school about this.

My point, though, on this whole subject, though, Megan,

we are talking about, let me give you an example.

We're spending now, I don't know, eight minutes on this.

There's 50 million.

That's only because you won't give me a straight answer.

We can move on if you give me a straight answer.

I'm going to give you a straight answer.

Let me give you, let me get

a hand kids go to public schools, to schools in elementary education in America.

We're talking about 0.01%.

Okay, I get it.

But I know

that.

But I know people who have been hurt by the boys who are participating in this conversation

and so on.

And they matter

as a father of both a son and two girls.

They are fundamentally physically different.

And

that's just biology.

You Get that.

Okay, so as it relates to sports.

So let me just ask you a couple of things quickly.

So do you believe boys should be able to play in girls' sports?

No.

Do you believe that?

Is this the round robin?

Yeah, we'll do a quick rapid fire.

And then we can move past it.

Do you believe that kids under the age of 18 should be able to be put on puberty blockers and then cross-sex hormones?

I think parents have to make that decision themselves.

I think that is too, a child is too young at 18 to make that decision.

It has to be made with a family and that choice.

I think before somebody makes a life decision, they have to think twice about that.

So you disagree then with the Tim Waltz policy in Minnesota where a child who doesn't get affirmed by his parents can go into Minnesota and get jurisdiction there and get the parental decision overruled?

Yeah, look, I think these are life decisions, and I'm also slightly both.

I have two minds, not two minds, but two strains that influence an opinion.

One,

There's a life decision and a child can't make that decision.

You have to to have some moral development and character and judgment and foundation for that.

Two,

parents have to be involved in that and I think that's for them to make.

I don't think the public should be in that space.

What if, I mean, there are some parents out there who are completely whacked in the head.

There really are.

They're not.

Well, that's not news, is it?

But it's not just not, no.

No, it's not news, but to me, it's terrifying because...

I look, I, and the other, and I left this out, but I want to repeat it is

I have a son and two daughters, and they are physically different.

And that's why, when it comes to sports,

why did all the Democrats bail off at that point?

The couple came out right after the election and they said what you just said, and then they got browbeaten, and then they said

the answers in the question.

I mean, that's not ever scared me.

And you know, I used to say this to President Clinton and President Obama.

Sound is not always fury, sometimes it's just sound.

And don't assume just because somebody's screaming at you, they represent more than their own voice.

Can should we be putting men in female prisons?

Men claiming they're women?

No.

And all right, here's my last one for you.

Can a man become a woman?

Can a man become a woman?

Not, no.

Thank you.

No.

That's so easy.

Why don't more people in your party just say that?

Because I'm now going to go into a witness protection plan.

My money's on you.

I think it'll be fine.

No, it's just so nice to hear the truth said.

I clearly spent too much time on this.

Without qualifications.

Yeah, well,

it just can't happen.

Let's talk about...

I'm not saying medically, I'm just saying it can't happen.

I got it.

Let's talk about our cities

and NAFTA.

Because I know you had a role in NAFTA.

And NAFTA has become so controversial now, this North American free trade agreement that had the net result of shipping a bunch of American manufacturing jobs overseas or down to Mexico.

And it's become super controversial with both parties.

You can look back and find

in-depth articles in the New York Times and, of course, over on National Review and the Washington Journal about what this has done to American manufacturing.

My friend Tucker and many others have made this like a central blank that they want in discussions, which is how bad American cities have become.

How you step out of the train station at Union Station in Washington and you're stepping over homeless people.

I went out for a premiere of a TV show in LA, literally stepping over homeless encampments just to get to the building, like open-air drug markets in some cities in California and further north in the Pacific Northwest.

Here in New York City, you know, you've got human excrement on the street.

You've got trash cans constantly overflowing.

And that's why New York needs alleys like Chicago.

Chicago, don't even get started.

And listen, Chicago had a heyday.

I lived there.

I was there for five years under Mayor Daly.

Those days are behind it.

But this is my principal question to you, okay?

Because Tucker and many others will use that as an opening to say, and therefore, why are we giving money to Ukraine?

And I get that point.

But I think, you know, there's another question to be asked, which is,

does it have to do with federal money at all?

Is the condition of our cities really to blame on the feds, or is it to blame on Democrat mayors in those cities and decisions like NAFTA that outshipped all the jobs that kept using the city?

So let's go, you got like seven questions there, so let me try to peel through all eight answers.

Okay.

One.

First, let me give a shout out that's being lost in the national debate to cities.

We're on course right now, and I talked to the mayor of Baltimore, Birmingham, Lower Rock, and Cleveland in the ResA, probably the lowest homicide rate in recorded history.

Baltimore has experienced the lowest homicide rate right now since 1968.

So while there are Chicago doing?

Chicago's also reduction.

But come on.

Wait, no, wait, no, wait.

Look,

I'm with you on homeless.

I get the open drug market.

Nobody's been more outspoken about that.

And you can go through my tenure.

But

that doesn't obscure or brush out, and I disagree with you on this one point, that

crime is on both homicide rates, violent, and also property crimes, on historic lows.

It's a fact that's happening.

They said that last year and it was debunked by the FBI.

No, the FBI numbers, just anyway, you can look at the, we're going to, we're going to, you and I are going to disagree to disagree on this one.

It is on course for historic low levels.

Now, as it relates to

homeless encampments, I think municipalities, mayors have been way too

permissive in a culture, as it relates also to drug markets.

Way too permissive in a culture, not just for businesses, but most importantly, for families and for children.

Giving out needles.

And I think that the example of mayor in San Francisco, at least what I've read, the mayor in San Francisco, I think, has got now the right approach to how to handle both of these issues.

And it's also pretty clear, I can say this is, I was Ambassador, Japan came back for the Asia-Pacific Conference in San Francisco.

When a city wants to clear out homelessness, all of a sudden it happens when you have a bunch of foreign dignitaries.

So when their own residents want it, you should actually be as vigilant as you were when foreign dignitaries come.

Well, and you tell me Japan doesn't have this problem.

They also have a different type of social system and a different, that's a longer conversation than the show permits.

Second piece, and I would just not have a permissive culture in that.

And Portland has now realized the wrongs of their ways.

Parts of Seattle, you cannot allow a zone for open, quote-unquote, drug markets.

It then becomes a permission slip to a whole host of other type of social and criminal aspects.

So

that's a massive don't go there.

Now,

two things that I think are really important.

One is I think there was...

is the president himself kept basically the structures of NAFTA and after the by the end of President Clinton's term, just a fact, there were 300,000 more manufacturing jobs than when he came in.

Now,

I think there was a mistake made and no doubt about it.

You can't leave Peoria, Battle Creek, Racing, Kenosha to confront on their own.

There was not enough support, not enough investment.

America has always succeed,

always succeed when we invest both in America and Americans.

That's why I'm big about education, big about the investments in technology and in our strengths.

The bigger challenge, I would say, is not so much NAFTA, but is what happened with China.

That's where you really had a fundamental and

big swaths of America were left basically to fend for themselves against the PRC, the Chinese Communist Party, and their strategy.

And that's where you've seen the devastation.

Now, do I think everything should be cleaned up?

You've learned certain things after a certain point, vis-a-vis NAFTA, et cetera.

I do.

Both parties have kept it in place, the basic structure, because it's better to have, as Ronald Reagan said, two neighbors that are allies working with you, because that's a large economy and also brings up a capacity to focus on other parts of the world.

Second, though, China coming into the WTO

with all of us hoping they would stay as strategic competitors, not realizing that President Xi in 2012 decided that China was going to become a strategic adversary.

And that unchecked, as you can see right now, both with the United States and the European Union dealing with China, that is where we've had a major devastation to the United States.

So what would you say to men in those cities like Detroit wondering where their manufacturing job went?

What's the Rahm Emmanuel plan to bring it back?

Well, one is build, baby, build.

And my basic point is when we are short right now, not tomorrow, not looking to the future, which we are also short, massive amount of investment

carpenters, electricians, plumbers, operating engineers, the whole building trade.

You can't AI that away and you can't get it to China.

How do we do that?

High school level?

Yeah, I'm going to tell you one thing we did in Chicago that I think should be a national program.

And you have to hire career counselors, et cetera.

You cannot get, we made it a requirement starting your freshman year, we gave you support.

You cannot get your high school diploma without showing a a letter of acceptance from either a college, community college, a branch of the armed forces, or a vocational school.

You had not just the Kelly children and the Emmanuel children, but every child had to have a post-high school plan.

We changed the high school from a diploma-driven to a career-college-driven.

And what comes next?

There, you ensure that every child can invest.

And let me say one side note.

If you look at the American history, there are three great periods of economic growth, all underpinned by one thing.

There's the land-grant colleges under Lincoln.

There are the Universal High School Education in the 20th century, and the GI Bill.

You could also add to probably a fourth, NASA, in the science and engineering and basic STEM as a challenge to Sputnik.

When you invest in Americans, America succeeds.

Just to be clear, just to be clear, because a lot of my audience understandably has questions about whether the modern-day college education is a worthwhile.

I didn't say college.

I said college, study college.

I know.

Branch Army.

Let me finish the question.

so I wanted to pick up on the last thing you said which is vocational education yeah so what would that look like an additional like how to fix cars how to it was maybe everything beauty school everything from carpentry electrician IB operating engineer

bricklaying painting but can you do it in high school like at my in my high school in upstate New York we had the BOCES program and you could actually do that in your ninth through 12th grade education we created a high school in Chicago for exactly that and you also one of the things we did in our community colleges we had dual credit dual enrollment.

So we brought community college classes into high schools and kids went from high school back to the community college.

A lot of the community colleges had carpentry.

They had electrical delivery.

But it's a requirement to get your own high school diploma.

Your kids are going to know because they grew up in your home.

High school is just one step.

They're going to know where you, if you ask your children, where are you going to be in four years or whatever?

They have a plan.

I just got to be honest, in the city of Chicago, which is true across the country, not just Chicago.

Some kids,

four weeks is their plan, not four years.

And making them think past high school, making it a requirement, stepping in where it's not happening at home, socializing this idea starting your freshman year is essential.

That's number one.

Number two, I happen to think investing dramatically in the most promising technologies of tomorrow ensures that America stays competitive.

And so that's part of not only built, you got to build these data centers.

you got to build the submarines that we need to confront China.

And we don't have that capacity.

We're not even really thinking about it.

No, we're not thinking about it.

We're not investing in it.

And the truth is the mistake of the last decade, the best thing I can say about President Xi is he woke us up about a decade ahead of time.

Now, are we making the most use of the time?

Absolutely not.

We have to start investing quantum computing, AI, biomedical.

take alternative energy, take all the promising technologies of tomorrow, massive investment in the research side, what I call that the brains part, and massive invest in the broad side so we have the capacity to make the most of this.

And if you start with AI technologation in school, every child, every student will have the basics and fundamentals to succeed as you look around the corner.

Unless the AI has already eaten us all by the time the children get this program.

Let's talk about immigration because this is another issue in schools and elsewhere that kids are dealing with.

I mean, in New York right now, it's crazy.

The number of translators they have to have in the public schools, what the kids who are American-born are having to deal with.

Why do you think Joe Biden let between 10, 20 million illegals into the country?

Yeah, so there's one is, let me start with what I think the challenge is.

And I'm not sure why Biden did that or the Biden White House.

You're also, and I want to preface, because not your audience knows this, my father is an immigrant.

My grandfather on my mother's side, 1914, comes to America.

We're a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants.

That's who we are.

And we're clear about the law.

You break the law,

the law is going to follow you.

That should be simple.

And we're also a nation immigrants.

We want people from around the world who want a better tomorrow, people like from Asia, from Latin and America, and Africa who want to come here and start a better future.

Legally.

Yeah, legally.

Now,

that's number one.

Number two,

and I just note his recent Gallup data all about how the numbers on immigration have flipped on Trump.

People reacted to the chaos on the border.

Now, President Trump went from basically being the voice of order to the inspiration behind disorder.

They do not like what he's doing in Los Angeles and around the country.

They see him now the inspiration behind disorder.

And I think if I was for the Democrats,

We have no disagreement on confronting illegal immigration.

We should be for, let's have a discussion about legal immigration because there's a brain.

But you didn't answer my question.

Oh, I'm away.

Why did Biden let 10 to 20 million illegal immigrants in?

They were not focused on what they should have been focused on.

The border should never allow to be out of control.

Now, you're also...

He opened it.

You're also talking to the person that, for President Clinton, was responsible for Operation Gatekeeper in San Diego, Operation Safeguard in Nogales, Arizona.

The border should be secure.

So you disagree with what Joe Biden did?

I disagree with allowing chaos at the border where people can flaunt the laws.

As again, my North stars on immigration.

We're a nation of laws and we're a nation of immigrants.

You have to honor both.

You can't allow disorder at the border and assume that it's going to be any respect for the rest of the process.

Do you think, would you change any of President Trump's border enforcement mechanisms if you were elected president?

The border enforcement, no.

I do think it's a mistake to call out, you know, I say this five years, President Trump's Trump's, you know, first term, the first six months of his, the only place he's ever called out U.S.

troops is on an American city.

And I think that's absolutely wrong.

I do not, I, you have a prisoner who's illegal?

Pick them up.

If they're in the orange jumpsuit, take them.

We'd love to, but the sanctuary cities don't allow it.

No, no, but here's my point.

A lot of states, all the states basically participate in making sure if you have a criminal element who is illegal, Fine.

No, they don't.

The sanctuary cities don't allow that.

You know, that's true.

Megan, let me then go farther.

You have people going to Home Depot to get a job.

That's not the problem here.

You have people trying to go to a place of worship, the Catholic Church.

That's not the problem here.

Border stuff, I said it.

Problem is, and this is why President Trump's also numbers have flipped on this in the country, not only Republicans and immigrants.

I've seen the numbers.

The latest Gallup shows

shows a shift in support on President Trump and his deportation program.

Yeah, and that's what we're talking about.

Yes, right.

You've endorsed the border policies, but not the the deportation program.

No.

And I'm also, to then get back to where I was, there is a split in the Republican Party on legal immigration.

Yes, there is.

Chamber of Commerce Republicans still want.

And if Democrats were smart,

we're good with you on illegal as it relates to the border.

Now, let's talk about legal because that's where the wedge is in the Republican Party.

They haven't, though.

You know, they haven't.

Well, I'm aware of that.

That's what makes you a little different.

And some would say, therefore, not electable by Democrats.

Like, I can see Rah Emanuel, if he gets past the primary, appealing to some more centrist independent types.

But that, you know, I had Mark Halpern on the program recently.

He's coming on next.

And he was saying, you know, your biggest problem is going to be getting past the primary because with the Democrats who have moved to the left, who are endorsing Democratic socialists like Mondami and this guy in Minnesota.

Well, look, that's what primaries,

you know, President Clinton wasn't.

who we know him to be, President Obama.

Primaries will prove something and we'll prove something.

As I like to say, given the fields, we're all stuck at that big number, 3%.

Okay, that's where we are.

I'll have to prove something.

But, you know, sometimes when you say on the, let's say, just say, quote unquote, the progressive left,

who,

as you noted, or as Mark has noted, have a problem.

Was it the free community college if you earn a B average in high school that you have a problem with?

Was it the pre-K?

It was the LeBron McDonald tape.

Sorry, was it the minimum wage?

Yeah.

And the Inspector General said that

and did a report on it.

And look.

Just the audience.

Let me just tell the audience what that is.

So when Rom was mayor of Chicago, there was an officer involved shooting of a black man named Laquan McDonald.

And there was a tape of the incident that was kept quiet, kept not acceptable by the public by a decision by you for a year.

And then ultimately, you can correct me when I'm done.

And then ultimately, you released it, and it did show that the officer was to blame and that

he shot when he shouldn't have.

And then there was an immediate drop in polling in support of you by especially the black and Hispanic communities in Chicago.

And some have never forgiven you for not

releasing the tape earlier.

You can correct me.

As you're a lawyer, you know what the rules are as it relates in the middle of an investigation.

So, one, let me go all the way to the back.

Laquan's uncle, who's a pastor on the West Side, big supporter of mine.

And there's not a day or a week that goes by that I don't rethink what-ifs.

And you don't get a do-over in politics.

You only get lessons learned, apply it forward.

And I thought I had fixed the system beforehand.

And clearly, the problems are much deeper.

And I own that.

That's why, and I take responsibility for that.

And the responsibility not only to fix it, but to also get the place of the city in a better place.

There were seven attempts at police reform before I got there.

This one is finally sticking.

And the other thing is, you know, Joe Ferguson, the inspector general, went through it and said I followed.

The problem was I did follow the procedures.

That's the problem, is they were put in place and you have kind of two tensions on one side.

If you got the FBI, U.S.

Attorney investigating, city's investigating, state is investigating.

If you unilaterally make a decision, you hamper a criminal investigation.

That officer went, served three years.

If you don't do it, you only drive the wedge between the police and the community even further.

And so you're caught between this Solomon-like choice.

Either one, one, you break the law, the other one doesn't.

What I hear you saying is you you think it's explainable.

You think this is not a deal breaker for you as a Democrat primary voter.

Look, I have the responsibilities I did when I got Senate confirmed

for Ambassador Japan.

I will explain it.

I own it.

And if you're looking for 100%,

nobody is, but I learned my lessons

going forward.

And that's going to be true for anybody who's a chief executive.

Tying together the

possibility of you as the Democrat nominee with our previous discussion on illegal immigration, you may be aware that Hunter Biden has some thoughts on you

shared with a podcaster I do not know and have never heard of.

Hold on a second.

I'll tell you who he is.

His name is Andrew Callahan.

Okay.

He's a three-hour long interview.

This guy's a comedian and journalist and YouTuber.

And

Hunter had some thoughts on you, among other issues, including illegal immigration.

Here he is.

And he's somehow convinced all of us that these people are the fucking criminals.

White men in America are 45 more times likely to commit a fucking violent crime than an immigrant.

And the media says, well, you got David Axelrod and, you know, Rom fucking Emmanuel.

So fucking smart, Rom Emmanuel.

And so we got to understand that these people are really mad.

And we got to appeal to these white voters.

Ron, the only people that fucking appealed to those fucking white voters was Joe Biden, 81 years old.

And he got 81 million votes.

And he did because not because he appeased their fucking Trumpian sense, but because he challenged it.

And he said, you can be an 81-year-old Catholic from fucking Scranton that doesn't understand it, but still has empathy for transgender people and immigrants.

And nobody said, oh, Joe Biden's going to turn us into a socialist state, no matter how much they said it.

But these guys think that we need to run away from all values in order for us to lead.

I say, fuck you.

How are we getting those people back from fucking El Salvador?

He's got a potty mouth.

Neither you nor I have failed to utter that word in our past.

I know this.

But we went 15 minutes here clean.

He's a big fan of it.

I don't know.

I kind of like Rom fucking Emmanuel.

I could see that on a sign, like a lawn sign for you.

Your thoughts on his thoughts about you.

I'm kind of feeling for Axarai right now.

He got thrown down in the gutter with me.

I've got a empathy.

I don't.

I think we're giving this more time than it's due.

That's my own view.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A little empathetic.

You have a

son who's blinded by his own love for, in effect, and loyalty for his father.

And I get that, but

not the first phone call I'm going to make for a strategic re- Good to hear.

He's also been out there and said it there in part, saying the only reason that the Dems lost the last presidential election is because they weren't loyal to his father.

Yeah, Megan, as you probably know, there's a lot of stories about Dems have to now start swearing to look like they're normal or something like that.

I was 30 years ahead of my time.

I'm like a good bottle of wine.

Still not normal?

I mean, I don't, I just, it's not, we spent two minutes way too much time.

Well, I'm not, this isn't about Hunter, but I know your brother Ari, according to the Jake Tapper book, was very outspoken about getting Biden off the ticket, saying he cannot do it.

We need a plan.

Come up with a real plan.

You're not your brother's keeper, but you were Joe Biden's ambassador to Japan.

Did you share those feelings?

I was appointed by Joe.

I was America's ambassador to Japan.

Thank you.

And that's how I took the role.

But I was honored that President Biden selected me.

So here's my thing: look,

one, everybody says, oh, there's a cover-up or whatever.

83% of the American people issued a judgment.

If there was a cover-up, the American people were in on it because they had their own opinion.

Number two,

does this look like subtle, quiet, reserved?

No.

Okay, so

number three, I have a general rule.

I mean, just look,

oval offices are very seductive.

Been in and out of them with two presidents for eight years.

White houses, one of the challenges they have is not to be as insular as they become.

It's pretty clear that both of those qualities played a role here.

Now, I slightly disagree with other Democrats.

I actually think this was a winnable race.

And

it's pretty clear if you look at the data, it was a winnable race.

And the real challenge, in my view, is why Democrats failed.

It was not going to be a blowout race, but you could,

the data was there, and the capacity was there to win, and the Democrats fumbled it.

You think it was winnable with Joe Biden?

No, but it was a winnable race.

Okay.

No.

If there had been some sort of a reset.

Look, 70% of the country thought it was heading in the wrong direction.

That's kind of architecturally built in for a challenger.

But

the day Kamala Harris takes over, the Democrats are down, Biden and Harris are down eight.

By the time you get to her debate with Joe, with Donald Trump, she's up three.

That's not a statistical error.

She was running on the economy, running on what I think is the most important issue, that the American dream is unaffordable.

It's inaccessible to the American people, and that is unacceptable to us.

This shouldn't be that hard.

Owning a home has become a struggle.

The system is stacked against people.

It used to be

real-time.

Okay.

That's the fun.

And we went off on all these other tangentiers.

They're telling you what the core thing is.

And when Kamala Harris spoke to it, she goes up plus three.

After the debate,

she wanders off into this democracy thing.

So in a weird way,

when she makes a break with Joe Biden and says,

I'm going to be the future.

I'm going to be change.

She.

But all the answers of, I don't distinguish my agenda at all.

And then basically debate or from the view performance.

She basically, I'm going to be continuity.

She goes down.

So to me, it tells you that, no disrespect to Hunter Button's Hunter Biden's analysis, that this was winnable.

Now, I do think there are

below that surface, forget 2024 for one second.

I think the Iraq war,

the financial meltdown of 08,

China into the WTO unchecked, and COVID have

fundamentally not only upended our politics, upended our economics, upended our schools, and we haven't yet recovered from that.

I totally agree with that.

Every word.

One,

Iraq was built on a lie and a deception, and people responsible for it have never been held accountable.

As somebody who in the Obama administration argued for Old Testament justice, the bankers should have been slap silly on the south wall and line them up and just beat the living crap out of them.

And they weren't.

They were arguing for their bonuses and people lost their homes.

Number three, what we talked about China earlier still applies in this conversation, which is they were cleaning our clocks and we left America basically unilaterally disarmed to face off against China by themselves.

And COVID also,

and this is where I think Democrats have made a mistake, we donned the jacket of the establishment, follow the science, follow the science.

When it's pretty clear, like take take schools,

COVID, as it relates to young kids, wasn't what it was related to people that were either both ill or much older.

They're still suffering.

And now we have an absentee rate of 20%.

We look at our shoes and we don't want to talk about it.

So when you look at those four things,

that is to me the biggest structural challenges of our society, our economy, and our democracy.

Here's the thing I have to ask you.

Is it possible for a cisgender heteronormative

male who happens to be Jewish to get the Democrat nominee for president in 2025 in America.

Well, that's going to be up to the Democrat voters, but I'm going to make my best cut.

Yeah, I got that number.

Don't worry about that.

Look, let's just state like Jewish.

Yes, I do, because I will say one thing.

When I ran for Congress, my predecessors were Dan Rosenkovsky, Roma Paczynski, Frank Annuncio, Rob Mukovich, Flanagan, and along comes Ron Miseral Emmanuel.

Same thing.

There's only 2% Jewish in the district.

But the Dem Party has changed on the state.

I'm going to get get right there.

I want to say, I've had Nazi insignia

sprayed on our fence.

I've seen it.

And I've seen, I still don't know, somebody go clean it up.

So I've seen the best of people.

I've seen people look past, not past faith, or more importantly, not past my faith because it is who I am.

My name is Rahm Israel Emmanuel, not according to Hunter Biden, but it is who I am.

Okay.

So I look at that.

And

my faith and my Jewish education is what led me to public service.

And I'm very proud of it.

Now,

by the way, I am the only person who's ever gone toe-to-toe with Bibi Detenyahu.

He called me a self-hating Jew publicly.

So I support the state of Israel.

I support its existence.

I support it as a Jewish democratic

nation, a sovereign nation.

But I am willing, when I disagree, speak about that.

And I've said that, but do I think so?

I do because in the end of the day,

our party believes in both economic kind of equality and also equality in a political system.

And this country,

this idea, and I say this, I want you to hear, my grandfather came here from Ukraine with nothing.

That his grandson, that he used to call a schmuck,

could be both a chief of staff to a president, a senior advisor, elected to Congress, the mayor of the city that we called home, and then represent America over.

This is the greatest country in the world.

Not because of my success, but because of the story and the permission that has allowed somebody whose own grandfather didn't have a bucket to spit in and a window to throw it out of could provide that opportunity.

And I'll close on this because we didn't get to this about family.

My parents

in our family room had my grandmother's purse.

with her and my two great aunts passports.

And on either side of that purse were the black and white photos of my aunts, uncles, cousins, on mom and dad's side who never made it to this country.

There's nothing subtle in a Jewish home.

You are given a gift.

It's called the United States of America.

You respect that gift and you honor that gift.

And that is what I live with.

And I think the country, as a father with two kids in the armed forces, will respect that.

Thank you so much.

I think your children are wrong.

You should talk about your dad and your grandpa and your kids.

You nailed it.

I got to, thank God it was only a minute because I was close to tears there and I see the Kleenex right there.

Mom, Emmanuel, thank you.

Thanks, Brad.

Come back, will you?

Yeah, sure.

All the best to you.

And we'll be right back with Mark.

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Okay, we've got some friends of the show joining me now to recap what we just saw and talk about all the latest headlines as well.

Let's get to it with two of the hosts on the MK Media Podcast Network, Mark Halperin, host of Next Up with Mark Halperin.

And Link Lauren's here too.

He's host of Spot On with Link Lauren, along with former Democratic strategist Dan Turntine, a co-host of the Morning Meeting on the Two-Way YouTube channel with Mark.

Guys, welcome.

Great to have you.

Thanks for having us.

So fun.

I didn't know which hour to look forward to more, but I'm excited.

It's like game post-game.

All right, so let's start.

Let's pretend we didn't talk about the Ram Emmanuel interview during break and give me your fresh impressions.

Dan, you go first.

I thought he did great.

I mean, I think considering this is like early in the game, no one's going to be perfect at this point.

He had good answers.

I thought when you asked him about the workforce and the economy, I thought even on immigration, right?

You heard like echoes of Bill Clinton.

We're a nation of laws, a nation of immigrants.

He kept coming back to that.

He, you know, when you tried to talk to him about the border and everyone coming in, he said, I don't know why they didn't do it, but they shouldn't have.

I thought he did well.

I thought the one issue where he was a little bit was the transgender.

That's obviously a touchy issue in the party, but I thought that he did very well.

And when I think about people who understand what you need to do to win, that is somebody who understands what it takes.

Yep.

I think for me, maybe it's a generational difference, but half the electorate is going to be Gen Z and millennials by 2028.

And when you think of Rahm Emanuel and you Google him, every picture is him cavorting with the Clintons, the Obamas, the Bidens.

He looks like politics as usual, and he looks like the embodiment of the swamp.

And even in the interview, I felt he came across a little smarmy trying to control the interview.

He was wishy-washy on some of the trans stuff.

And it's like, you're a 65-year-old man.

You've been in politics for decades, the upper echelons of politics, and you can't give straight answers on these questions that we want.

And you kept asking about men in women's restrooms and in girls' bathrooms.

He said, oh, it's not a dominant issue.

Let's move on.

It's not a dominant issue.

But then Kamala Harris, part of the reason she lost were those swing state ads on taxpayer-funded transgender surgeries for inmates.

These might not be the dominant issues to use, to you.

And you might think they're culture war issues, but they're still going to galvanize galvanize voters.

So I just didn't find him that likable.

Okay.

So he did not get Link's vote, Mark.

No.

And they're both right.

I've known Rahm since your senior year in college.

So I've known him a long time.

Dan is right that Rahm graded on a curve against some of these other people who were talked about.

His level of sophistication, his level of confidence, his level of understanding the intersection of politics, politics, and the press, it's light years ahead of almost any other Democrat, not just thinking of running for president, but almost any Democrat active on the national stage.

Link's right, too.

There are so many issues related to Rahm that make it almost impossible to imagine him actually being the nominee.

Not only because he's, as your question's teased out, he's crosswise with the base, but he's yesterday.

He's a longtime political figure, made millions in investment banking.

He's not on paper what the party is currently looking for.

So I think he showed his best and his worst with you.

And I think you asked him about all the right issues that teased that out and put it in sharper.

It was fascinating.

So, from my perspective, but I'll say one thing about yesterday before I get to my perspective.

So, was Joe Biden.

He was yesterday, and he won.

You know, I'm talking about the first time around.

So, there is the possibility that even though you've got baggage and you've got party affiliations and you've got all the connections for 50 years,

you could be the mayor.

Walter Mondale was the nominee too, but we're in a different time, I think.

And even from four years ago, yeah, we've got Mom Donnie now as likely our next mayor here.

So, they're really going.

Maybe let's hope not.

But my own impression was, so I thought we had a very cordial first 48 minutes together.

And that's good.

I mean, and we kind of laughed about it after the fact that we're sure meeting number two will be a little bit more exciting.

Is that your first time with him?

Yeah, that was my first time interviewing him.

Got it.

No, people like Ram Emanuel did not come on Fox News.

We did not have access to that.

Yeah, so, but I liked it.

You know, we touched on some hot button issues, but we kept it cordial.

And I think that's good.

I really wanted the audience to get to know him.

And I wanted to see if he would say normal things to me without me like beating him over the head or over him beating me over the head.

And I was amazed at some of his direct answers.

Like, yes, he wiggled on the trans thing for quite a while.

But in the end, when we did our little lightning round, he did give me a couple of points.

Like the men in prison, we have it cut.

Here's, here, watch.

I have a son and two daughters, and they are physically different.

And that's why when it comes to sports.

Why did all the Democrats bail off at that point?

A couple came out right after the election and they said what you just said, and then they got brow beaten.

And then they said, you got the answers in the question.

I mean, that's not ever scared me.

And you know, I used to say this to President Clinton and President Obama: sound is not always fury, sometimes it's just sound.

And don't assume just because somebody's screaming at you, they represent more than their own voice.

Can we be putting men in female prisons?

Men claiming they're women?

No.

And all right, here's my last one for you: Can a man become a woman?

Can a man become a woman?

Not, no.

Thank you.

No.

That's so easy.

Why don't more people in your party just say that?

Because I'm now going to go into a witness protection plan.

Is he?

I mean,

listen, you guys know, I realize that wasn't like hugely

like a huge breakthrough.

We all talk about what's true and what's real every day, but for a guy who wants to be the Democratic nominee, that was pretty bold.

Well, I think the overarching thesis and takeaway from the interview is just how broken the Democrat brand is, that a guy goes, men and women are different.

And we're like, hooray!

Yay!

He's like, oh my God, men and women have biological differences.

We're going, yes, amazing.

This is groundbreaking for a Democrat.

It's like, that's how broken the identity is.

But he's going to have a hard time in the primary because the Democrat Party has been co-opted by this like loud, progressive, vocal minority, and they just keep capitulating to them.

So I don't really think he has a prayer.

He might have some good ideas and he seems strong on some issues, but I don't think he has a prayer.

Does that come back to haunt him?

No, I mean, I think, look, the interesting thing.

It does not come back to haunt him?

No.

And I'll tell you why.

Even hanging out with you might come back to haunt haunted.

There's two things going on.

The first is the party after the election said, we know we need to make change.

Now, anytime anyone's attempted to do it, as he said, the base has yelled.

Rah's issue is going to be both two things.

He's going to have to do these sister soldier moments.

The party needs to do sister soldier moments.

You can't break with your party.

And he's got that, right?

I don't worry about that.

Rah's other challenge is he's going to have to throw some bones to the base.

And where he chooses to do that, because the problem for Ram is the energy is in the base and the base can't stand him you asked him about it you asked about a very sensitive issue that he has with the black community he's going to have to figure out and i have no doubt he's thinking about this where am i going to lock arms with them and unapologetically charge against donald trump and jd vance and everybody else other candidates it's the complete opposite they're inching up to that sister soldier moment gavin newsom on the podcast with charlie curriculum flirted with it took so much heat he then you know and and and was really kind of struggling until the immigration thing propelled him forward within our party, maybe not the general electorate.

So, I mean, Rahm's got two things.

But again, he thinks about that stuff.

He'll be smart about it.

He'll be strategic.

And I have no doubt when he does, he'll move forward aggressively.

Let me be honest about Rahm.

Rahm likes to be honest.

Rahm's talented, right?

He's one of the most talented pauls.

He's not Bill Clinton.

He's not Barack Obama.

He's not George Bush and he's not Donald Trump.

He's not in their league.

He's a super talented staffer, which he once was.

He was a super talented candidate for mayor, super talented

DCCC head.

He's talented, but he's not their category of talented.

So can someone less talented than those four guys, all of whom stood up to their party and appealed to the base, right, simultaneously, make people in the base feel good and stand up to people in the base?

That's really hard.

I just don't know that Rahm is talented enough to do that, except he's running against a bunch of people who are less talented.

So he might be talented enough to do it, it, but he's not in their league.

But I will say the people he's running against, let's say it's like AOC, Gavin Newsom, they have some star quality and charisma.

That's what I was missing.

Maybe if I watched it, I would get a different feel.

But listening to it, it was kind of like low energy Jeb Bush, kind of like that sort of slow.

I don't think he's low energy.

But it's just like that gear.

Yeah, where's the other gear, though?

I guess in this interview, it just felt kind of like low to me.

And he's kind of like, yeah, I'm thinking about that.

So I don't know if he has the star power and charisma to tap into this sort of like populism on the left that the right has had for so long.

And then to go to what you mentioned, the reason President Trump caught fire in 2015 and 16 is because he was willing to call out the elites and the establishment in his own party, these neocons and who have been running the party for 15, 20 years.

I don't know if Rahm is going to be able to do that because the left likes, but the left, yeah, but he is one.

And the left likes to cast purity tests way more than the right.

You said one thing we disagree with, or we don't like this one little thing.

So I think he's going to have a tough time.

He doesn't sound woke.

I'm not sure whether any Democrat who's not woke is going to get nominated next time around.

The party just does, they're captured by it.

It's a cancer.

It's metastasized.

There's no excising it.

I know normies like you, Dan, would like it to be, but I just don't think it can happen.

The only thing is our party's history, we flirt with these very progressive candidates, Howard Dean, you know, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, Sanders in 16, and both of them in 2020.

Our history is we back off and go with the safe candidate.

Now, our party is more left than we were in the past.

And at some point, that may come to an end,

that pattern.

But as a party, we tend to value victory and who we think has the best chance way more than people, I think, kind of give us credit for.

Here's what's cautionary for me.

What was the most obvious question you were going to ask him?

What was the thing he should be prepared for more than any other?

About how he's going to win over his

trans.

Oh, you mean from me, May?

Yes, yes.

So he basically tried to avoid answering until you wouldn't let him, right?

Yes.

That to me, I mean, how he could have been relevant.

Maybe he thinks that was the right way to do it, but to me, that seems unprepared, not just mechanically unprepared.

But if he's not ready to confront that issue with you,

what's he waiting for?

Yeah, you know for sure I'm going to be asking about that.

He also

did, for the record, endorse minors getting puberty blockers into cross-sex hormones, meaning they get sterilized for life.

They lose sexual function as long as their parents agree, which is not what the side of reason believes at all.

And his bathroom answer wasn't great either.

No, because he'd already allowed it.

Well, but he could say on reflection, I think it was a bad idea.

And you gave him your opinion without Trump having evolved.

He did not abandon that.

But he did not say that a man could become a woman, and he said men shouldn't be in women's prisons, and he seemed to say men shouldn't be in women's sports.

He's kidding himself if he thinks, I believe, he can say that's not the focus.

The focus is on the economy.

That's never going to fly with me or anybody else.

Like, I'm sorry, whether it's hubris, we'll decide what the focus is.

That's the one advantage of having this job.

The base will decide too.

Yeah, but I'm saying, like, literally, having done all these presidential debates, I'm sorry.

I will decide.

It is up to me.

Correct.

I'm the one who wins.

I'm not going to be able to do that.

Working-class voters for whom that was a bigger issue than we thought it was.

It's just, it's the cultural, do you understand us, right?

We started losing them culturally in the 90s.

We then lost them economically in the last 10 years.

We got to win them back on both hands.

And I don't want to just be negative about it, about him.

Because, Because again, I think he's more talented than almost anybody else who might run.

What he gave you was a bunch of tactical replies.

Megan's going to ask this.

I'm going to say this.

I'm going to try to change the subject.

She didn't change the subject.

Now I got to answer.

Did you feel his heart on any of those issues?

I liked the last answer about America.

I'm saying

on the top issue, the American stuff's easy.

He can do hard on that.

There was no, you know, again, don't go back to the question of authenticity.

It was all tactics.

Well, I think the education thing is legit to him.

I mean, that's sellable.

It's a real issue.

Exactly.

On the easy ones, he's great.

On the hard ones, I thought it was all just tactical.

The one place I disagree with you, though, Mark, is on the vocational training stuff, I do think he believes in it, which

is easy.

No one's against vocational training.

Well, but we've fumbled over what we want to do in the economy to no end.

Sure, but he's just, to me, he's not trying to show his heart on those things.

He's just trying to get through it.

I wonder whether he'll have it improved to the point that he can sell it.

Because look, Gavin Newsom suffers from a different problem.

And he was saying we're all at three percent that's not exactly true kamala harris is at 12.

my god good luck dan

um let's go back to wrong right after kamala is gavin who's up there i think singled like maybe nine and then everybody else is down lower aoc's up there but she's not it's not gonna happen so He's right that like there's no real frontrunner and we don't think Kamala Harris is actually gonna run for president again.

So it's really him and Gavin maybe looming up there.

And Gavin Newsom, I don't know.

He may be formidable.

To me, he's just such an obvious snake oil salesman who will say anything depending on who's across from him.

I just think people will be able to see through that from a mile away and they might like the steady Eddie with a couple sharp elbows, Rom

fucking

Emmanuel, rom deadfish, whatever it is.

Well, my thing with Gavin Newsom is he can't even call his wife his wife.

She's like his partner and she's given the man multiple kids.

And then he was against men and women's sports for a minute in the Charlie Kirk interview.

He's gone back.

Now he's fighting with the DOJ.

Gavin Newsom stands for nothing.

So if Rahm Emmanuel can have black and white straight-up answers for things, just be straight with the American people.

And to go to your point, Dan, the left and the mainstream media constantly like to tell Americans what issues are important to them.

Oh, trans is a culture war issue.

It's not a big deal.

Well, these millions of moms turned out for President Trump because it was a big deal.

Oh, we don't care about seed oils.

This is food isn't going to decide this election.

Those Maha moms came and turned out.

So every issue matters now, especially with social media.

I think Rahm's got to fine-tune some of these answers.

The other thing is, can I tell you, I was thinking about this last week.

You know, right before the fall of the Roman Empire, the culture completely imploded with debauchery and no connection to faith or something bigger than oneself and all these, you know, not caring for the weak or, you know, for unborn babies at all.

And that's why the culture wars do matter.

Like we're right, we're back there in some ways with like thrupples and people trying to normalize pedophilia with the minor attracted person label and the cutting off of children's genitals in the name of like equity and inclusion, dividing us by race, trying to make little girls boys when they're not like all this stuff, you can dismiss it as culture wars, but I actually think it's the degradation of a cohesive society.

It's what happens when you remove faith as a guiding guiding principle of any society.

And it really is the road to end times.

Like it's fine to just dismiss it as like, oh, you're sweet little culture.

No, it's the road to end times.

So like if we don't fight back against it, we're going to completely lose everything that's dear to us.

I don't know if he knows that or if he's just too much of a Democrat to really see that.

Yeah, he travels in circles where these things are not as big a deal.

He just does.

What do you make of Gravin Newsom, though, against him, those two on a stage?

Picture that.

I still think Newsom's not going to run.

I'm the only one who does.

You really do?

Why?

Because in the interview I did with him on the MK Media Network, he talked about his daughter being upset that she had to, you know, be followed around by one security person when she went out.

And when are you you going to leave she said he said his daughter said when are you going to leave office so i can stop this if he runs for president and wins he's not he's not going to be my friends he doesn't even know the daughter's damn named he doesn't who the hell is this daughter oh please i also don't think his wife wants him to run you don't jennifer

some jennifer partner does not want him to run i i may be wrong maybe he'll do it but i don't if he does run and it's him against rom then i think uh you will see an elevated debate i don't i don't i think those two guys guys will have a serious conversation about the party.

With all due respect, this is a guy who sleeps with his campaign manager's wife.

He's an alcoholic who kind of lied about going to rehab and we're suddenly like, he's father of the year.

His daughter really doesn't want him to run for president.

Oh, please.

He's going to run if he wants to.

And they'll still make his daughter play against a boy,

even though he gives lip service that he won't when he's interviewing her.

I mean, I don't know how he can't be thinking seriously about it and leaning towards it given the last month and a half that he's had.

I mean, we can all debate whether what he advocated for with the L.A.

riots was smart or not, but he's had a moment in the party.

I don't think anyone's had a better last month as a Democratic candidate for 2028 than Gavin Newsom.

Wow.

His bar is low.

Agreed.

100% agreed.

But the party now, like, if you read articles when he went to South Carolina, you look at focus groups, what does everyone say?

He's fighting.

Oh my God, he fights.

He stood up to Trump.

He now has this communications team where he's trolling J.D.

Vegas.

He's trolling.

He's doing better on social media.

He's employing a lot of the technology.

Yeah, he's not speaking our language, but you have to acknowledge that he's out there swinging.

He is speaking the language of Donald Trump, which is non-stop front foot in your face.

I'm going to troll you.

I'm going to hit you.

I'm going to mock you.

I'm going to do everything.

And our base, just as the Republican base craved it in 2015, of like, oh my God, he's not apologizing on immigration or any of this stuff.

Again, we can debate good general election strategy.

But I don't know how you go to South Carolina and Jim Clyburn says, I like this guy.

He's got a bright future.

I think, and go home and say, well, hon.

I'm hanging in.

Yeah, Yeah, all right.

That was nice.

There's, there's, I would have won.

There's four factors that I think get lost in the conversation about running for president that I don't know that he'll do as well in.

And I'm very bullish, more bullish than you, Torah, on his skills.

One is, what are the early states they're going to vote?

We don't know.

But if the early states are, include Iowa and South Carolina, let's see how he does.

Gavin, we're talking about it.

Gavin.

Number two, raising money.

He should be able to raise a ton of money as governor of California.

He's got the best digital list to raise money.

I want to see if he can raise serious money.

Okay.

Number three is effort.

Is he wanting to get up every day with his young kids and living on the West Coast and do the 10 things it's necessary to do to run?

And then the last thing is, how do you handle a crisis?

How do you handle political crisis when they come at you?

I don't think we've seen him handle political crisis particularly well.

Or real crises.

There's nothing rebuilt in LA whatsoever.

Not a single home is rebuilt.

Look at when he's been, like, remember that thing where he was on the cell phone and the lady was trying to talk to him?

Like,

oh, that's, you know, look at look at how Bill Clinton.

Look at how Donald, look at how Donald Trump handled Axis Hollywood.

Look at how Bill Clinton handled Jennifer Flowers in the draft.

Look at how Barack Obama handled Reverend Wright.

Like, I just don't see in him someone who digs deep when that stuff happens.

So

in those four areas, he's not as great as he's been in some of these other things, as Dan pointed out.

And I just think there's reason to be skeptical that he's going to play at that point.

I'll tell you something about Rahm that we didn't get into today.

He's as vicious on Trump as Gavin Newsom is.

Like, we didn't get into Trump today.

He won't be running against Trump, notwithstanding what Steve Bannon says.

And

so, but every Democrat is still going to run on Trump, right?

Like, whoever it is, whether it's J.D.

or Marco or could be Tulsi, who knows?

It's going to be all about Trump.

So, I think he'll also appear as a fighter because he'll be out there saying the nastiest things possible about Donald Trump.

And I do wonder, though, like, how's that going to go?

Because I don't think Ron Emmanuel or Gavin Newsom or anybody else I've heard of on Team Blue has the oratory skills of J.D.

Vance or Marco Rubio, who are, I just think, going to eat their opponents alive.

And either one of those guys will kill them unless they increase their game by the time they get out there.

Well, even Gavin Newsom, they thought he was going to do great in that debate with DeSantis.

They're like, DeSantis, they're going to wipe the floor with him.

Newsome's this snake oil salesman, greasy guy, talker.

And he goes out there.

Ron DeSantis holds up like a poop map.

He just wipes the floor with Newsome in a way.

Yeah, I don't think people were expecting.

And Newsom kind of floundered and and flailed.

And I think that's what happens when you press Newsom.

And we saw that in the Sean Ryan interview.

He was pressed very delicately about eight-year-olds transitioning and cross-sex hormones for kids, couldn't give a straight answer.

It was a lot of this sort of air traffic controller, Bob Fossey, jazz hands, and he couldn't give an answer.

And so Gavin Newsom, I don't even think it's a guarantee Gavin Newsom makes it out of a primary because you put him on a debate stage.

He crumbles so quickly.

Like he seems unwell.

Like something's off with him.

Like he's going to crumble really fast.

I know what you mean.

Like, why does he gesticulate so violently?

More than Tim Walls.

It makes me distrust him, really, because I've said this before, but my, my CIA guy, Phil Houston, invented the deception detection program there.

They still use all over the world.

Hands above the midline is a tell, if coupled with another sign of deception, that you're lying.

It has to be two signs of deception within five seconds of asking the question.

This is not voodoo.

This is real.

He's a human lie detector.

He's outed bad guy terrorists who we thought were working for us.

He's found double agents within the CIA who we thought we were using against another country, but really they'd been turned against us.

Bill Houston is the man.

And he's ready to arrest Gavin Newson.

He says he's no,

no, he hasn't weighed in on Gavin.

But just FYI, hands above the midline, can be a tell if it's coupled with another.

He's really never done that, by the way.

Like this.

I do it all the time, but I'm not a real blonde.

Watch out.

I'm not deceiving you.

I'll do it when I'm like making a point.

It has to be coupled with something else, like

a verbal attack.

Like, how could you ask me that kind of a question?

That's, I'm lying.

Like Nathan Thurm on Saturday Night Live.

Who's he?

He's a character who would say stuff like, no, maybe, maybe someone should interview you.

Maybe somebody should investigate you.

Are you asking me all the questions?

All right.

So that's enough about Robin Emmanuel and Gavin Newsom.

This is a long way off, although kind of it's not.

It always starts already.

I don't know.

It's too soon, okay?

President Trump has been in there for six months.

Can I say one more thing about the very first question you asked him, why are you here?

I thought his answer was abysmal.

He just kind of joked about it.

You didn't like it.

He should have said, I want to reach every American.

You have a huge audience of people who have been trending Republican, and I want to win them back.

Not, I had nothing better to do.

I don't know.

I just thought that was,

it set a tone.

If he's serious about reaching your audience, I just thought that was kind of disregarding.

Right,

come on bended knee with a bouquet of flowers.

Yeah, yeah.

That's a good question.

And say, we got to fight for every vote.

We can't let people who voted for Donald Trump vote Republican in four years.

And again,

I'm not against joking.

I just just think the reason that george bush and donald trump and bill clinton and barack obama all won is because they ran simultaneously appealing both to their party and to a general election electorate and he he just seemed to me just missed the opportunity to do that he told me before the interview and i don't think he would mind if i repeated it because he seemed to suggest he might tell the story himself um that he it was here in part because his sister-in-law listens to the show and heard me say something nice about him.

Yeah, should have said that.

Blessed family could have done it.

Yeah, so he was like, well, maybe she'll give me a fair shot and I'll go over there.

And I did.

And so, listen, when he comes back, we'll see if he does better if he takes these pieces of advice to heart.

But I want to talk about Trump because there's been a very interesting development now

within the Intel community around Trump.

Tulsi Gabbard late on Friday, and I just want to say,

as on all things, I am a truly honest broker on this.

I'm still trying to figure out what's real.

I don't know.

Like who she is accusing of what, for instance.

No, whether she's right and Matt Taibbi, who I love, is right, that this is a bombshell and it's terrible and people really could go to jail, or whether Andy McCarthy at National Review, who I love and respect and who's a totally honest broker too, is correct, that this is a complete nothing burger and she's totally off and apparently hasn't read her own CIA director's release of last week.

And that he would suggest she hasn't really been following the Russia Gate scandal because everything she just told us is old.

And so I'm really trying to figure out, but just to set it up for the audience, because it's very complex.

On Friday night, Tulsa Gabbard went on Fox News and said that she'd found documents that she was releasing that show,

in some substance,

that one day the intelligence community under Barack Obama was ready to come out and say that the Russians did not interfere in the 2016 election and really had no part in it.

And that whole thing was kind of bullshit.

Then Barack Obama pulled them all into the White House.

They had a big meeting.

And then literally the next day,

they were like, Russia interfered to help Trump and leaked it to all the reporters, Washington Post.

And the suggestion is that Obama turned to them and said, I'm not having a report coming out of you guys saying that they didn't interfere.

Our whole narrative is that Hillary would have won had it not been for the Russians.

Now, give me a report that says that.

That's the implication.

And that then the Intel community did it, and the subservient Washington Press Corps ran with it.

And that's how the narrative really took off that the Russians had gotten Trump elected.

Okay, so Andy McCarthy's point in response is,

okay, you're talking apples and oranges.

What they said prior to the Obama meeting was, we've seen nothing to suggest the Russians hacked election machines,

even though they tried in a couple of places, but that

they were not able to do anything technologically that would have altered the outcome of an election with raw vote.

Then they have the Obama meeting and then they come out and it's true that their report that they issued then was all about the ways Russia did interfere.

Like

fake articles about Hillary,

bots that circulated negative news about her, and they hacked the DNC mail, which is how we have a lot of the admissions we have from her and her terrible family.

Anyway, he's saying it's apples to oranges.

And while she is producing now emails that do show

they were ready to say no interference when it comes to election machines prior, that we kind of knew everything that she's saying already.

I'm going to show you her announcement.

I think we have it, guys, don't we?

On Friday night.

Yeah, it's at nine.

Let's play it.

Spells out in great detail exactly what happens when you have some of the most powerful people in our country directly

leading at the helm, President Obama and his senior most national security cabinet, James Comey, John Brennan, James Clapper, and Susan Rice and others, essentially making a very

intentional decision to create this manufactured politicized piece of intelligence with the objective of

subverting the will of the American people.

The list goes on and on about the consequences of President Obama and his senior cabinet members politicizing intelligence.

Once again, and I say these words very clearly, to enact what was essentially a years-long coup subverting the will of the American people.

One of the other points Andy made was that he's not a fan of Tulsi.

He wasn't behind her confirmation.

But he's also saying it's not a surprise to him that Tulsi Gabbard would try to exonerate Russia entirely and instead blame America, right?

Like sort of say Russia didn't do anything whatsoever.

And his point is she's overstating it.

Russia did do some things, but it didn't cost Hillary the election.

Andy doesn't contend that.

But that we're now sort of manufacturing something for press clicks and possibly indictments that may not be there.

Anyone want to take take this?

I mean, look, I'll say this.

I am with you.

I'm not sure what she's doing because I think what she's trying to argue is it wasn't determinative to the outcome.

But there is no debate Russia tried to influence the election.

As you say, they bought ads on YouTube.

They bought ads on Facebook.

They had chat bots.

They hacked email.

They wanted Donald Trump to win.

Now, the question was, did the Trump campaign collude?

Robert Mueller ruled there was no definitive proof that they colluded.

But I'm not sure what, I almost get the sense that what she's saying is like, they didn't try to interfere in the election.

And what's also fact is the Obama administration, the last month of the campaign, was aware of what was going on and struggled.

Do they go public with this?

Do they put it out?

If we do, it's going to look like we're trying to tip the scales.

After the election, they huddled and said, we need to get out, both as like a PSA, hey, Russia, you tried to do this and we're aware of it.

And then they said, was there collusion?

Was there perhaps something more there?

I think that latter part they wanted to put out into the kind of, you know, mainstream to be like, someone needs to go look at this, right?

And obviously that enraged Trump and he didn't want, you know, he wanted and he wanted everyone to know that he did this.

But I'm not sure what she's implying.

If there's real signs of crime or now, then by, you know, goodness, put it out and let the public see it.

But I'm very skeptical.

I know.

Have you looked at this?

And it's, it's very smart people who I normally trust are in diametric disagreement on it.

If she sees a crime, she's got to say who and what law they broke.

It's just too vague.

I'll pick up on a point Dan made, which I know because I did a lot of reporting on this.

They really did struggle with what to say.

They didn't want to let the Russians go uncalled out in public, but they also didn't want to be accused of trying to make it seem like the Russians were doing something.

They were pretending the Russians were doing something to help Hillary.

I actually think there's 19 things you could list that say cost Hillary Clinton the election, and this is one of them.

It was very close.

You don't know what would have happened otherwise.

But I think Russia helped Trump win substantially, not through collusion, but because they wanted Trump to win.

And that is something she's playing down.

What she's playing up is that they somehow broke the law in trying to protect Hillary Clinton.

And again, I just wanted to say that.

She's suggesting they manufactured it.

She's basically suggesting this is the same thing as COVID, where the scientists went from, this looks like it came from a lab.

We've never seen such a virus from an animal.

And then after Fauci and Collins browbeated them, they came out and they were like, it's definitely not from a lab.

It's from a pangolin.

They're people associated with Barack Obama who leaned into collusion, without a doubt.

And that wrong.

I don't know if it's against the law.

It was dirty pool.

But mostly what they said was the Russians interfered with the election, and they did.

I think this is a little bit of cosmic karma.

Everything comes full circle because Tulsi was accused by Hillary Clinton and the Obamas, I believe, of being like a Russian asset.

And then she went on the view and said she's owned by Russia.

She's a Russian puppet.

And Tulsi was coming out saying, I'm nobody's puppet.

I've served this country.

You know, I'm a woman in uniform, as she is and she's a rock star but yeah no I think this is a little bit of cosmic karma she gets to now come out and say ha look at what we've just uncovered in these files but I think it's Monday maybe by the end of the day we'll have more information because I read on the way over here she's now given something to the DOJ or she said it's going to come out this week we're going to see leave I think it was weird Friday night to make the announcement with everything going on I know why why they they put out news that's bad for them heading into a weekend after a holiday they put out news that's good for them a Friday night Hannity will be here Monday so I don't know if they're probably going to go on time.

That might have been an Epstein surface.

I was just going to say maybe.

I'm not sure that's going to work either.

We'll talk about that when we come back.

Let's take a break and then we will discuss where we are in Epstein-Palooza.

Stand by.

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So, you were saying before the break, it's fancy here, isn't it?

I can steal.

Yeah.

Like an ashtray.

Do they have ashtrays?

You know what's funny?

I don't think anybody does anymore.

The same guy has been driving me and my family for like since I started at Fox.

Super nice man.

And he was dropping me off today.

And he said, you know, Megan, you've been coming to this same location because Ceres is right across from Fox and right across from NBC.

He's like, for like almost 20 years now.

You just, as long as you can spit a watermelon seed far enough to hit the other building, that's good for you.

You know, it's like, this is media central, and it does bring back a lot of memories.

Anyway, so we were saying before the break that possibly the Tulsi Gabbard thing was a head fake to change the topic of conversation from Epstein.

Did it work?

Well, it's hard to know, right?

Because what the

two intervening things that seem bigger around Epstein.

One is the Wall Street Journal story, which rallied MAGA back towards the president.

And the other is the announcement of the filing to release, that's the grand jury transcripts to be released.

I think those two things did the most to take the steam out of it for the media, even though the New York Times now seems obsessed with reviving it.

So I want to say two things.

I don't think we're going to learn much from the grand jury

files at all.

And I think the Trump administration knows that.

So he says, oh, nothing I do will ever satisfy them, which is true, but this definitely won't.

Like this won't even come close.

It's not a good faith effort to satisfy them.

It's definitely not a good faith effort.

But secondly, on the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal hit piece, it was so lame, it was the best thing Trump could have asked for.

And I realize he came back swinging, but even if he had it, like, there's nothing we on the right hate more than the left's fake news hit pieces on Donald Trump.

We've seen so many of them.

The guy literally took a bullet.

He's been put through hell.

Like, we have all had it up to here with the false attacks on Donald Trump.

And so the best thing that the left, and I include the journal's report in that, could have done was just be quiet and let it stay a Trump slash influencer problem.

Don't help because that only makes people on the right want to drop it and defend him.

And that's kind of where I am.

Like it was such a lame, I'm very interested in what the truth about Epstein is.

Very interested.

You try to tell me the whole scandals about Donald Trump, fuck off.

I'm out.

Like that's, that's a lie.

We know that we would know that by now if it were true.

I will not be your truth warrior on that because I know it's not right, but I do want real answers in the underlying scandal.

Go ahead, Link.

You know, I just feel like the left really wants to tie Trump to Epstein more closely.

And I think that's what the Wall Street Journal really was about.

I mean, I just have a hard time believing he's sitting there drawing and doing this.

The whole thing sounded really silly to me.

And then there's also still this narrative online that, you know, maybe Trump visited the island.

I'm like, the guy doesn't even stay in hotels that don't have his name on it.

I certainly don't think he visited the island, but they want to keep tying Trump to Epstein.

I think J.D.

Vance is still looking like a winner because he doesn't seem as mired down in the Epstein stuff.

J.D.

Vance, I don't think he's spoken about it as much.

He's now rallying around the president with the Wall Street Journal story as he should.

So I think going into 2028, I don't see this Epstein stuff having really any bearing on the election.

He brokered the peace between the FBI guys, Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, and Trump.

Right.

And because Trump was mad at them after the like she goes or I go thing with Dan and that reportedly J.D.

Van stepped in.

Yeah, go for it.

Okay.

Trump is making these decisions about what the country learns, about something people are really interested in.

Yes.

And he's got a conflict.

He was close friends with the person at the center of this.

How close?

I think the Wall Street Journal story, story, if true, speaks to that.

You say he stays in his own hotels.

I've never heard of Donald Trump flying on anyone else's plane, ever.

Flies on his plane.

He flew on Epstein's plane.

That suggests something.

Again, I'm not assuming fact's not in evidence.

I'm not saying the president broke any laws.

I'm not saying he did anything improper.

But he was close friends with the guy.

For 15 years.

Yeah.

And so he should really be recused from this in terms of the public interest and confidence in the decision-making.

So any story that illustrates or claims to illustrate their closeness, I think just speaks to that.

You think about it.

He shouldn't be the one deciding these things because

they're about his good friends.

That's a pipe.

But let me tell you something.

My own feeling is not that Trump has something to hide in these files.

I really don't believe that.

But I do believe Trump probably has some powerful donors and or friends.

Which is why he shouldn't be deciding.

But I think that's

that the question, it dies down if there's nothing, if there's no more new oxygen.

But I think we've all probably heard there are more stories in the works.

Now, they may not ever see the light of day.

There may not be anything there.

But I think to Mark's point, they were close friends.

New York and Palm Beach are small worlds.

We're sitting in one of them right now.

If there's another story and it starts to get closer to them, then I think this continues to have more oxygen and people start, you know, it brings it back in front of the public.

People demand stuff.

And to Mark's point, people start thinking, is Trump hiding something about his friends or about him or what is it?

Trump.

It brought that piece of it on himself.

If Trump had just stayed consistent with the base, and this this had never been Trump's issue.

You know, he really hadn't been touting Epstein on the campaign trail, though his son touted it many, many times, and so did his top deputies and his emissaries out on the campaign trail.

But if Trump hadn't done that weird answer at that cabinet meeting and then gone on the attack against the MAGA base, nobody would be thinking this is like a Trump scandal.

They just, he's making it, he's so defensive on it, it's making people be like, 100%.

Whoa, there's the target right there.

Go ahead.

Is there a simpler explanation here?

When I look look at President Trump, I think, is he bored, right?

Sometimes I look at him and go, is he bored by something?

That's sometimes an explanation.

And I think President Trump, because he doesn't live on X, because he has Fox rolling 24-7, that's what he watches, they're not really covering Epstein that much.

And I don't think he really gets everything that's happening on X in the podcast space with the discussion around Epstein.

I think President Trump is also frustrated because he had weeks of just consistent winning, right?

When it came to the border, the Iranian nuclear facilities going down to Texas with the grieving families.

I know because I was there.

But President Trump had weeks and weeks of winning.

And then now he's like, you guys want to talk about Epstein, this loser?

Even his attorney general should not have put out that memo.

Right.

But here's the thing.

He is going to stand by Pam.

She is not going any freaking where.

Even what's so funny to me is at that FIFA soccer game, Pam Bonnie was in the box.

So was Rupert Murdoch.

And now he's stealing Rupert Murdoch five days later.

But yeah, I think Pam Bonnie's not going anywhere.

She's Florida.

Susie Wiles likes her and she's good on cable.

And so I don't see her going anywhere anytime.

I don't know if I agree with that.

I really don't because it's, I believe Trump likes her and doesn't want to switch out his AG.

And Susie wiles likes her but the base has turned on her

they they they will forgive the big man

they're not going to forgive her i think my words i think it'll take some time like with the mike waltz situation i don't think it's going to give a dog a bone right now and give you give you the body and the head that you want could i see her going and being moved and shifted down the road sure i don't see it happening now in the dog my information is that she's miserable anyway i don't i don't think she's happy anyway i mean

yeah it's so remarkable too because he's so culturally deft he so has his finger on the pulse of his base, of what's being talked about around the country.

This is the first time in 10 years that I've just seen him on the wrong side of this.

Repeatedly, to your point, he's dug in about it.

And that is surprising, right?

You would just think he's so smart and so clever that he would see this, he'd shift, other than throwing out something like the Russia with Tulsi Galbert.

When does he make that move, right?

And how does he do it?

Because as a Democrat, I just am like, whoa, you're so on your back foot, you can't get off it.

I know know this is a weird place to go with it, but

in a way, it kind of reminds me of what happened at Fox with the Gretchen Carlson investigations.

You know, she filed this lawsuit.

Nobody liked Gretchen.

No one really wanted to deal with her.

We all knew she got fired because she had terrible ratings and she wasn't popular.

But then she dug up this Me Too allegation, which we were all like, oh, sure, whatever.

You know, even I was like, there's no way that's why she got fired.

Even though I knew what Roger had done with me, to me, not with me, years earlier.

But what was happening in that case was

Roger had managed to limit the investigation into Gretchen's allegations to only the team that worked with her on her show, which would mean he would never get that the investigators, Lachlan and Rupert and their lawyers, would never get to the women who actually had stories.

And this grand jury thing has that feel to me.

Like, I don't think we're going to hear anything from those grand jury files regarding any Trump friends, any super rich New Yorker or Floridian who, because, you know, Julie Kay Brown, as annoying as she is, was on,

was it Ross, Do Thoughts, whatever his last name is, Dauphet's podcast over the weekend.

And she was once again reminding us all that there,

he is believed, Jeffrey, to have trafficked girls to third parties, to other rich men.

And she was naming some very rich men.

I'm not going to name them here.

You can listen to the podcast if you want to, as like having made Jeffrey super rich, super fast, other than just Les Lex Wexner, the Victoria Seeker guy, other than him.

And it just really got me thinking again about the fact that there, there really are reports, there are women out there who can point the finger at a third man or a fourth man or a fifth man.

And I got dollars to donuts that those names probably aren't in the grand jury.

Yeah.

But the point of it was to just say, we're doing something.

We're, we're, we're for disclosure and see where this story goes.

And from their point of view, hope it goes away.

Which it could.

Yeah.

I'm also never really into file dumps.

Like people said, we want JFK.

We want RFK.

We want all these files.

And then they made noise for like six hours online.

And we didn't really learn that much.

There was no big bombshell.

The earth didn't come to an end.

Nothing shattering happened.

So I don't really lose sleep over it.

Like if we learn something new, we learn something new.

But I don't find it all that interesting.

Well, let me ask you this.

What's the net effect of all of this?

Because, you know, my own feeling is I didn't like how Trump handled this, especially last week, but it didn't change my feelings about Trump.

You know, I still support him.

I still think he's incredibly good for the country.

He's, he is chalking up so many wins.

So like, you look at the fact that Trump is getting boys out of girl sports.

He is stopping the mutilation of children.

He is closing down the border.

He is deporting dangerous illegals.

Oh, that matters way more to me than about Epstein.

But there are people in Coromaga for whom, you know, this is a very big issue.

And it speaks not to just like their conspiratorial nature, but like the system that protects corrupt rich guys and shits on the little people.

And that could be an ongoing problem.

I think it's huge because, look, the last three elections have been games of inches, 2, 3%, right?

Trump barely wins in 16, barely loses in 20, barely wins in 24.

As you just said, for the first time in 10 years, Trump

and his movement have been defending the status quo, defending institutions, right?

You had Charlie Kirk saying, I trust the government.

We haven't heard that in a decade.

And for these younger people, and I give Trump tons of credit to get all these young people to buy into him, to buy into MAGA, to believe in him, They're saying, wait a second, this is no different than what we kind of heard during COVID.

You know, some people go back to the Iraq war and

Rom kind of touched on all these different things.

That's where I say he's tone deaf a little.

How does he fix that?

Not that they're rushing to us Democrats yet because we have a huge trust problem with them.

But for the first time, we've been about change.

We've been about transparency.

And the Republicans are just...

That's where you fell off the hat, Dan.

But also, Dan.

Dan, start somewhere.

Maybe Elon Musk and his America Party, maybe they'll get a couple.

But they're not going Democratic.

Here's my thing.

If I'm President Trump, right, he's looking at these polls that even CNN is running that he's gone up the last week or two, even with all the Epstein stuff.

And I think one of the takeaways is even if they're really loud voices on X and in the podcast space, they might not have as much effect on these polls and in the broader electorate.

And I think for President Trump, because he's not living in those online spaces, he's like, I'm winning.

I'm killing it.

We've got the most secure border.

Why aren't you talking about this?

I'm bored with Epstein.

I think it's really that for me.

I don't think it's so much the friends or there's some secret thing he's hiding.

I think he's like, I'm bored.

Why are we talking about this guy?

He's dead.

He's gone.

Some piece of Trump genuinely believes this is a Democrat conspiracy, that like this was, this is like a long trap that's been laid by Democrats somehow.

I haven't totally figured it out, but I think there's a piece of him that does genuinely believe this is like some sort of a thing that's been laid for him.

And I reported this earlier.

I was told by a few people that there is a belief, this is not confirmed, that there's a belief that there were some like poison pills put in the files by the Biden team before leaving office that that would make it such that Trump wouldn't want to release the files.

I have no idea whether that's true, but now I've heard it from a couple of people and even the Trump, even President Trump intimated it.

Credible.

I want them to put out the credible documents, is what President Trump keeps saying now when he's gaggling.

She can put out anything that's credible.

And so I think he's just worried there could be some stuff in there that's supposed to paint him in a negative light.

And he's like, I'm winning so much.

My polling is great.

Why are we talking about that?

Why don't you just love me the way I deserve it?

I think he's bored with it.

I think he's so bored.

And the news that he's watching isn't covering Epstein at all.

And his aides might be coming to him saying, this is really big online.

This is big online.

And I think he's like, I'm sick of this.

Yeah, I don't like online.

So, Mark Halperin, does it affect him in any way, shape, or form or no?

I don't think so.

I think it's the 485th lesson that we all should be humble and remember that Donald Trump understands MAGA better than we do.

Yeah.

And politics in general.

The guy's instincts for it have been spot on.

Yeah.

Spot on.

Trademark talking about it.

And he can do stuff and say stuff that other people can't.

Yeah.

I think it's also July.

I was talking about this with someone yesterday.

I'm like, it's the middle of summer.

It's July.

I think a lot of people are at home.

I think by a couple of weeks, we won't even be discussing it.

Well, maybe that's why they released it when they did, you know, because it's summer.

I was just amazed that they released it during such a slow news time when the media is always looking for something to chew on.

And this has been such a juicy story.

If they're super sophisticated, maybe they figured out he can burn out over the summer.

Same way BBB is going to burn out by the time we actually get to the midterm.

It's happening.

All All right, guys, a pleasure.

Thank you.

Thank you all for being here.

We never get to be in the same room.

Yeah, that's wonderful.

Okay.

Tomorrow, we've got another MK Media star, one of the EJs, Emily Jashinski, will be here for the full show.

Don't miss that.

Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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