Megyn Moments: Bill Maher, VP Vance, Charlamagne, All-In Podcast, Shawn Ryan, Karoline Leavitt

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And I'm telling you, I identify them differently than you do. Hillary Clinton, of course, is the original election denier.
I'm sure you voted for her in 16. Well, she's not an election denier.
She absolutely was the OG election denier. She first of all.
How do you see those women in like your arc with them, J.D.? Well, I think it is the through line line of my life, Megan, that there have been strong women who have made it possible for me to have a good life. I think the positive, uplifting name for yourself is totally in line with now I know how you parent your own daughters.
Absolutely. And, you know, I got I got four daughters.
And when they ask me when they tell me they want to do things, I don't shoot it down. Because I had older people in my life who did that to me.

I'll keep my opinion to myself.

Why?

The middleman is a lie.

There are no middlemen. The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at noon east.
Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and today's Megan Moments special.
We're bringing you some memorable moments from the past few months, showing these guests, all of whom you will know, like you haven't seen them anywhere else. Some really special moments in here.
Bill Maher and yours truly sparring over election denialism. J.D.
Vance opening up about his wife and being raised by strong women. Charlemagne the God on the way he parents his daughters.
Sean Ryan on God in his life and in mine. Plus Caroline Levitt on her marriage and balancing work, which is very busy for her with new motherhood.
And the guys from the All In podcast and yours truly get deep into what works and what doesn't in this new media world. I think you'll find it very insightful and interesting.
Enjoy, and we'll see you Monday with the EJs. Grand Canyon University, a private Christian university in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona, believes that we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
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He thought last time that he could count on someone being just a Republican to do his bidding. And what he found out was that there are a lot of decent people who are Republicans, which is something I'm trying to tell the Democrats all the time.
You can't hate, you can hate Trump. You can't hate everybody who likes him.
And you certainly can't hate half the country. And Republicans is not a byword for bad people.
And a lot of them stood up. I mean, even ones who I don't like very much, Mitt Romney, McConnell, obviously Liz Cheney, Chris Christie.
There were Mike Pence. These are what I call as good as it gets Republicans, for the people who don't like Republicans.
They full-throatedly said Trump lost that election. No two ways about it.
McConnell said it wasn't even a particularly close election. A lot of people said it.
A lot of people said it. But look, I agree with you that the majority of the Republican Party doesn't believe that.
But I do think there's a difference between it was stolen, you know, the nonsense with Dominion voting machines and all that versus it wasn't fair. And, you know.
What wasn't fair? The election. Oh my, don't get me started.
What wasn't fair? Well, the election. How about the suppression of the Hunter Biden left tax story? Just for one.
Oh, for fuck's sake. Really? Oh, then we're not as alike as you think.

That's a stupid non-story.

I mean, yes.

Says who?

There are polls that show some 10 to 12%

of the electorate says they would have changed their mind

had they seen it, had they known about it.

It wasn't right to suppress it,

but nobody gives a fuck about Hunter Biden's dick.

When you say nobody, you're talking about yourself.

I'm telling you there are data to show people did care. Thank you.
it, but nobody gives a fuck about Hunter Biden's dick. You say nobody.

You're talking about yourself. I'm telling you there are data to show people did care.
They say they would have changed their vote. Nobody who was going to vote for Trump anyway or Biden anyway.
It wasn't about Hunter Biden's man parts. It was about the scandal of his corruption and his dad's corruption.
Bill, I used to think that Hunter Biden was a hot mess and Joe Biden was embarrassed by him but had to deal. Now I really think he was doing Joe Biden's bidding.
Joe Biden is the bad guy who sent his drug-addled son out there to collect money. That's what the laptop shows.
And that's more important than what I was bringing up about not abiding by election results, not respecting what always made this country great, the peaceful transference of power. See, I don't disagree with you on that.
You're not going to get me to say it was a great thing the way Trump behaved. I don't have to get you to agree or disagree.
You're obviously someone who looks at an elephant and a mouse and cannot tell which one is bigger. I disagree.
I know. That's projection by you because I look at Joe Biden.
No, I mean, that's how I see you. Well, let's talk about...
Why are you telling me this? I mean, this is just typical right-wing talking points, the evil Hunter Biden and the evil Joe Biden. And look, do I like them? No, I don't particularly like them.
I think they're very flawed. Listen, listen.
It's not nearly on the scale. You're misstating my argument.
You're misstating my argument. Hunter Biden just now on the laptop was brought up as evidence of how the election was not fair.
He's not a reason necessarily to not vote for Joe Biden. The reason not to vote for Joe Biden is his policies.
You're not woke. He's as woke, at least his policies are, as they come.
The open border bill? How could anybody vote for somebody who keeps this border open with the number of rapes and the number of murders and the numbers of crimes going on with these immigrants?

But again, these are the normal sorts of issues we've always had in this country that should be taken care of through the normal process we've had.

You're talking about the difference between this, I'm talking about the difference between this and something fundamental, which is our democracy. The fact that you have to respect who wins an election or else you don't have the kind of country we've always had before.
How about... I mean, I feel like we keep going around the Rose Bush about this and we're not going to make any progress, so let's stop talking about it.
But, you know... I just, I mean, you keep saying sort of, I'm nuts, because I don't see the difference between the elephant and the mouse, and I'm telling you, I identify them differently than you do.
Hillary Clinton, of course, is the original election denier. I'm sure you voted for her in 16.
Well, she's not an election denier. She absolutely was the OG election denier.
First of all, she came out before the sun had risen to concede the election to Trump. And then spent the next four years saying he was illegitimate.
He was an illegitimate president. Okay, well, first of all, she didn't say he was an illegitimate...
Yeah, she did. Tell me exactly what she said.
She said those exact words repeatedly. Okay.
I mean, she conceded the election. Whether you're interpreting her disappointment at losing it as the same thing as Trump not conceding it, I don't know if that's where you're getting it from.
But again, it's a tremendous false equivalency. You could ask Hillary Clinton right now, who won that election? She will tell you.
Donald Trump won the election. Now she knows she has to because of what Trump has done.
She came out that night in her dark purple suit and conceded the election. Correct.
And then spent the next four years trying to convince us it was not legitimate. Just saying, look, it's not the same as Trump.
What Trump did was far more severe. I'm not going to deny that.
But don't try to tell me that Hillary Clinton wasn't an election denier and Jamie Raskin and a whole host of Democrats who are now in prominent positions on Capitol Hill. Doesn't make it great what Trump did, but they don't have clean hands either.
But you bypass the immigration question. I mean, like that a lot of Republicans.
I'm not bypassing it. I think it's it's a disaster.
I think. So how would you put this guy back in there for four more years to leave the doors open? And like it was so much better under Trump? Yes, it was better under Trump.
Are you kidding me? It was somewhat better. Oh, Bill.
It was somewhat better. Go look up the immigration rates.
Yeah, I know. Illegal immigration rates.
I agree. For 2020, for 19 to 20.
I'm not defending Biden on immigration.

I don't understand why it's so difficult in this country to stop people coming through the border.

I don't.

And I watched that 60 Minutes piece.

They did on it a couple of months ago.

And they had films of people coming through this hole and the border patrol just watching them and basically waving.

I don't understand why.

I don't understand why this country can't accomplish something like that.

It doesn't seem like it's impossible. But so many things in this country.
That's what's so aggravating. We can accomplish it.
We can stop what's happening at the southern border. We just won't under Joe Biden.
And he keeps pretending like he has no agency on it, but he does have agency. There are a lot of executive orders he could do just like Trump did.

He won't.

And you know why?

It's because of the people who use the word latinx, who are trying to lecture him that it's not humane to enforce our borders. Yeah, I would agree with that.
The left wing, because they're so afraid always of being called racist, they let that color every issue and very often wind up with terrible policies that wind up not helping people of color. Don't you think that's what's happening to him on the trans issue too, which is my big issue that I mentioned off the front? Well, I think what Joe Biden is is a guy who does not want to fight with the left wing of his party.
He sees that as, I don't think he understands a lot of what's going on in the left wing. I mean, I don't doubt if he heard the word trans before he was president.
But that's what he has chosen to do. He does not want to fight with AOC.
He thinks that's where the energy in the party is, and he's not completely wrong. So he just kind of goes along with that kind of stuff.
Yeah, that's one thing that's not great about him. So many people these days are focused on getting healthy.
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They were in love with you after hillbilly elegy until, you know, because they thought you were like a Trump whisperer. You were the guy who could help them understand the evil man who had ascended to the presidency.
But there was an interesting exchange that you had on Joy Reid show back in the day. This is 16 discussing your book.
We pulled it up just for kicks. Here it is.
J.D., thank you so much for being here. I have read so many think pieces about your book and seen so many interviews with you.
I have the book right here. Can't wait to dive into it.
But your story, first of all, is fascinating. So the way you went from sort of Rust Belt country to Yale.
One of the things that's really fascinating about your story jd is how similar some of the pathology to talk about uh... are to the pathologies that normally people assigned to african-americans right that you know these ideas about the way you're raised you're raised mostly by your grandparents on the way that you were able to use opportunity like the military to get a college degree that's very familiar across racial lines.
So why do you suppose there's such a huge gulf and distance ideologically between African-Americans and people from where you like the ones you came from? Well, obviously, a lot of it goes back to 40 or 50 years ago when when the two groups sort of diverged because of of of certain policies that were supported. A big part of it is just that because of the way that black Americans have been discriminated against legally, I think black Americans have tended to focus on a politics of race and which party is going to provide the most racial uplift or tear down the most legal barriers, whereas white Americans have typically voted, their pocketbook, voted a politics of class, and so they've tended to not necessarily overlap.
Pretty fascinating. By the way, you look so young.
It's crazy what's happened to you in the past eight years. It was before the beard, Megan.
That's a long time ago. I feel like Usha's done a good job with you, J.D.
You're sharper dressing and I like the beard. You got to chill out with that.
She's already arrogant enough about a lot of things. She deserves to be.
But I think you were making a good point there. And I think even Joy Reid could see it back then.
Now, maybe not. Well, look, it's very simple.
And actually, I think it's starting to change, by the way, Megan. I think you see a lot of black and white Americans voting more along class lines, voting more along who's actually best for me.
There are a lot of black energy workers who are not going to benefit from the policies of a Harris administration to destroy the American energy industry. So I do think that's slowly starting to change.
But it is interesting to sort of hear how fascinated these people were with my story five, 10 years ago. And now that I am on the presidential ticket, they've decided that I'm the worst possible guy in the world.
It's fascinating to me. It's not surprising, Megan.
And it's kind of what I signed up for, right? I mean, I want to make people's lives better. My whole idea here, and the reason I accepted President Trump's invitation to join the ticket is because I think that Americans have been screwed over by a lot of stupid policies.
I'd like to change that. And at the cost of changing that, as people like Joy Reid used to say nice things about me and now they lie about me, whatever.
As Harry S. Truman said, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
I think it's an honor to be here. And everything that comes along with it, I just see as a necessary part of having to do this job.
When Trump named you as his running mate, we did, we revisited some of your bio. And one of the points I made that day was, this is a man whose life has been formed by strong women.
That's very clear. That's a fact.
It's not spin. From mamaw, your grandma, to your mom, though it was a complicated relationship and remains so, I'm sure, to your sister, Lindsay, with whom you're very close to Aunt Wee.
And then you move on to Yale Law School. And there's Amy Chua, our mutual friend who we love, who encouraged you to write the book and changed your life and saw in you this special story in person that ultimately would lead you to enter the national conversation.
And then Usha, who you met at Yale Law School, who I know has been responsible in large part for teaching you how to love, how to be in relationship, how to conquer some of those childhood demons. So to me, it's a great success story of not just Dady Vance, but of American women, strong American women, from mamaw with her guns and her love of the F-bomb, to your own mom with her addiction problems, though she managed to make her imprint, to the beautiful Lindsay, the sisterly love who beat herself up for not protecting you more, ultimately to this more sophisticated, incredible, dynamic wife, Usha, who's taking you on the next leg of the journey.
So how do you see those women and like your arc with them, JD? Well, I think it is the through line of my life, Megan, that there have been strong women who have made it possible for me to have a good life. And you mentioned MAML.
I've heard so many MAML stories from friends and family just in the last few days, people who have come out of the woodwork, obviously, because we gave this speech at the RNC convention. And one story I heard, Megan, just a couple of days ago from my aunt is we were in a car and I was so young, I'd just forgotten this story.
And we were driving to Eastern Kentucky and a motorcyclist pulls up and he's kind of swerving and he's being aggressive and he's just being really ridiculous and kind of scaring us in the car. And I pointed it out, my aunt points it out, she's driving and Mamaw reaches underneath her seat, pulls out a 44 Magnum and taps it on the window.
And this guy sort of almost swerves and crashes his motorcycle. Well, that was the end of the motorcycle harassment.
And that's just the type of person Mamaw was, right? She was just this incredibly strong person. And yeah, you know, Usha is more sophisticated in the ways of the world.
But I think what sort of unites them is one, they're very tough. Two, they're incredibly protective of their family.
Three, they're very smart, right? Mamaw wasn't well-educated, but she was a very brilliant person. And, you know, I'll say, of Usha is I asked the convention planners, I said, what about having my wife introduce me before my speech? I'm not making that mistake ever again, Megan, because she did such a good job, and I was so proud of her, but I'm not going to have to follow that act ever again.
I'm going to make Usha introduce President Trump. She really was.
And part of her nature, like the way she projects is self-deprecating nature is what makes her so attractive and charming. Yeah.
And, you know, and she's just herself. And, you know, what I was worried about having never been in the spotlight is I just want you, honey, to be is I said this to Usha.
I just want you to be who you are because I love you. The world's going to fall in love with you.
And she just went out there. She didn't accept the speechwriter speech.
She wrote her own speech, said exactly what she wanted to say. And she did such a good job with it.
And I just, you know, as, as a guy who's very in love with his wife, I was very, very proud of her, but not following that speech again, Megan. So how did you feel when you got the call from Trump? You know, you and I talked when you were, you weren't even in politics.
You had just returned to Ohio from San Francisco. You were telling me you just couldn't take like the people openly defecating on the sidewalks.
It was a lot from this kid, this kid from, you know, Midwest and you weren't even in politics. And now, you know, flash forward eight years later, you get the call from President Trump asking you to be his running mate.
How did he put it to you? How did he ask you and how did it feel? Well, the funny thing, Megan, is we're in the hotel room in Milwaukee. We had just arrived.
He apparently called and I didn't see the call because it went straight to voicemail or something. So I call him back and he answers the phone.
He says, you know, J.D., you missed a very important phone call. Maybe I'll have to give this to somebody else.
So my heart kind of stops, right? And I tense up really, really powerfully. But the funniest thing, Megan, is because we're in the hotel room with my seven-year-old kid, he's talking about his Pokemon cards, right? So I'm trying to have this conversation with the president of the United States offering me the vice presidential nod.
And in the background, my seven-year-old's talking about Pikachu. I'm like, God, for the love of God, son, for 30 seconds, just let me have this conversation.
And it's funny, the president hears him and says, put him on the phone. And then asks my seven-year-old, what do you think about this statement I'm about to put out nominating your dad for vice president? And my son listens to it.
He says, oh, that sounds nice. And it's just such a surreal moment.
My wife actually got a photo of me on the phone with the president. You know, what an honor, right? I mean, that's the thing that I try to just remind myself of every single day is I didn't come from anything material, right? I did not have the advantages of a lot of people in politics, but I had an incredibly loving family.
And I just feel so grateful to have this opportunity. And as I said to the convention, Megan, that the most important thing that I think I can bring to the ticket is to never forget where I came from, to never forget the perspective of people who are struggling.
Like, you know, it's people like Mamaw who really suffer when grocery prices go up as much as they have under the Harris administration. It's people like Mom who struggled with addiction, but she's been clean for 10 years now, who really, really struggle when you have this poisonous fentanyl coming across our southern border.
So I just want to remember where I came from, serve the people who made me who I am. And I think if I do that, I'll be a fine vice president and the country will be better for it.
But that's my goal. Start a business that sells and designs decorative plates.
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Money Movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc., licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. The book does spend some time on positive messaging and how you talk about the astronaut theory and how when we're raising our kids, we can't, we don't want to overcorrect so much against everybody gets a trophy society that we veer into cynicism with our kids.
Like now you, I mean, let's be realistic. You're not actually going to the NFL.
Maybe you should channel your energies a different way. You're very much against that.
I think the positive uplifting name for yourself is totally in line with now I know how you parent your own daughters. Absolutely.
And, you know, I got, I got four daughters and when they ask me, when they tell me they want to do things, I don't shoot it down. Cause I had older people in my life who did that to me.
I tell a story in one of my, my first books, cause this is my third book, but I tell a first book black privilege about how um i had a i had a a cousin aunt she was like my mom my mom's cousin but she was also like an aunt to me as well and i remember just talking about all of these big plans i had and all of these things i wanted to do with my life and i remember she said to me don't set your goals so high you know don't set your goals so high because if you don't reach them, you're going to be disappointed. And I paused for a second and I said, that is the stupidest shit I ever heard in my life.
Like, why would you ever tell a child that? Like, I wasn't even a child. I was like, I don't know, 19, 20, but I was like, why would you ever tell anybody that? So my thing with my kids, when they want to do something, yo, let's try it out.
Like I got one of my, one of my daughters recently started soccer and you know, she, she liked it at first. Past couple of practices, she don't want to go.
Why? She said, it's too hot out. I don't want to be out there in that heat.
I'm not going to force her to go out there and do the soccer if she doesn't want to. If she, because if you genuinely love something, you're going to want to do it regardless, right? That's how I was with radio.
It didn't matter that I wasn't making any money. I've been doing radio 26 years.
I didn't start making money really, really in radio until probably my, I don't know, 10th, 12th year in radio. So it took a long time.
I started doing radio in 1998. I didn't start really making money until probably 2010.
right? So, but I loved it. So that thing that you love to do that is probably gonna change your life is that thing that you're gonna do for free.
So if she doesn't wanna go do soccer, I'm not gonna press her to do it. Yeah, there's no- But I'll give her an opportunity.
Committing to that at this point in her life. So I wanna ask you this because you're very positive in your messaging.
You're real, but you're positive in your messaging. And then there was a chapter I wanted to ask you about, which was 16.
This wasn't you. It was Aaron McGruder, who was the man behind the Boondocks comic strip.
And it was the only chapter I was like, wow, well, this is not positive. This is some stark stuff.
And it's about race. It's called death of a nation.
Yeah, it's about race in America. And it's about us allegedly being a white supremacist country and Republicans don't do shit for poor white people, but they still vote Republican and they do it because if they were to vote Democrat, the N-word would benefit.
It's got a lot of incendiary thoughts on how evil Republicans are because they really just exist to keep the black man down. And I, it's not you, but you have put it in your book by this guy, Aaron McGruder.
So what are your feelings on that? I think Aaron is expressing an emotion and feelings and saying things that a lot of people feel. You know, a lot of people in the black community absolutely positively feel like that.
But it's not even, you know, just Republicans. I just feel like, you know, government in general.
I think that there's been a lot of systemic things that have been done, you know, to black people in this country to put, you know, black people in certain positions in this country. And there hasn't been enough systemic things done, you know, to get us out.
You know, I think one of the main critiques of the Democratic Party is, you know, they are supposed to be the party that represents us and supports us. And, you know, people don't feel like they have fought hard enough for black people.
That's why every presidential election cycle, we're back having these same conversations about Democrats going out there and earning the black vote. Like if Democrats had done historically what they say they are going to do for black people, they wouldn't be in this position every four years where they're out here trying to push me to endorse.
What do you think that is? Like, what do you think that is? Because I know there's a divide between the parties and some factions of the country that, you know, the Democrats, and we keep hearing them saying things. We heard Biden at the Morehouse College the other day saying, with a very dark message about this country, that the country doesn't love you back as a young black graduate and talking in very negative terms

about what their futures look like.

And you contrast that just to what Barack Obama said

in front of the same audience, you know, eight years ago.

It was very uplifting and also empowering.

Like you can do it.

You can make a difference in this great country.

You have nothing but blue sky ahead of you.

Very different, stark messages.

What's in chapter 16 sounds more like Biden. So how do you see it? More like Biden, more like Obama? Well, I think I would like to see it more like President Obama.
And the reason I would like to see it more like President Obama, because as he said, these are his words, the audacity of hope. Like you have to be optimistic.
Like I'm optimistic because I was

raised on a dirt road and, you know, Monk's Corner, South Carolina. My mother was an English teacher.
The most she ever made, you know, was $30,000 a year at one point. You know, my father was a great guy, you know, who had a lot of flaws.
Right. And he was a construction worker, but he also had his own mental health issues and his, you know, he dealt with substance abuse.
And I'm not supposed to come, you know, out of that circumstance.

But because, you know, he dealt with substance abuse. And I'm not supposed to come, you know, out of that circumstance.
But because, you know, I was able to come out of that circumstance and just because of, you know, other conversations I've seen from people who come from environments like mine, I have to have the audacity of hope. I have to have, you know, optimism, but I also have to deal with reality too.
And it's just interesting that President Biden would go to Morehouse and make those statements when a lot of those issues, those problems he's contributed to, whether it was the 86 mandatory minimum sentencing, whether it was the 88 crack law, the 94 crime bill, there's a lot of things that he, you know, contributed to in regards to keeping, you know, the black man down. Auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it.
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You know, I grew up Catholic and never really took church seriously. I never did.
And then when I left home, I never really went back. And it kind of lost faith.
And I'm not saying I wasn't a believer. I just didn't really care.
I didn't think about it. And I had definitely no time for God.

And so I took that as a, I mean, that was like a slap in the face.

And I decided I needed to get serious about faith and at least look into it.

And so I started looking into it.

And it's been great.

And, you know, to be honest, it's the only thing I can find that makes any damn sense anymore.

And it's all in that book.

Thank you. and it's been great.
And to be honest, it's the only thing I can find that makes any damn sense anymore. And it's all in that book.
Everything we're seeing happening right now is in that book. Is that how you started, just reading the Bible? I did, I did.
I started trying to read it from front to back and I wasn't really getting anywhere. Some shocking stuff in that Old Testament.
Yeah, yeah. If you go that way.
Yeah. But then turns out, as it turns out, my entire team, I'm really close with my team, my podcast team, the guys that work for me and make it what it is.
And it turns out one guy was raised Southern Baptist, super well-versed in the Bible. My editor, Darren, grew up a Jehovah's Witness and escaped it, but knows that book from front to back.
My IT guy, Adam, devout Catholic, knows it all. Everything, Elijah, my production manager, he's the Southern Baptist guy.
And they kind of started pouring into me. And a lot of my buddies that were in the SEAL teams, Eddie Penny really kind of paved the way for all of this, I think.
Eddie Penny was a, we were a were team two together and then he went on to dev group and uh just like oh ma like i mean not who you would expect to come to faith but he was my christmas episode a couple years ago and ever since he came on and gave his testimony of how he came to everybody that's been on the show has brought it up and um and he became kind of a mentor of mine so i called eddie and told him and i said hey this is what happened i don't really know where to start i don't really know what this means. And we had a conversation, and he goes, he was like, oh, man.
He's like, a lot of us have been praying for this to happen. Wow.
And that kind of freaked me out. I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, we've been waiting for this.
He's like, you have a big voice, and this needs to happen and so that was at about midnight now I'm getting into some other kind of weird synchronicity uh coincidences and so about 12 hours later I had a meeting that Adam uh my t guy had scheduled with me at noon and Eddie was telling Eddie was telling me during the conversation he was he was talking about guardian angels and all this other stuff that was spiritual warfare stuff that i know like nothing about well fast forward 12 hours i'm talking to adam i didn't know what this meeting i thought it was about email marketing or something and uh he wanted to talk to me about spiritual warfare and guardian angels. Wow.

And I was like, it was literally like almost the exact same conversation as I had had with Eddie Penny. You're like, that's not on the dropdown menu of message manager, meeting manager.
And they're not friends. I mean, Adam is, with all due respect- They hadn't coordinated those two guys? Eddie is built like a shit brick house, a dev group operator.
And Adam is a IT computer nerd who I love to death. And so, no, they don't.
There's no cross-pollination. They're not friends.
They've never spoken. Exact same conversation at noon.
Come home for lunch from my studio to be with the wife and kids. And Adam, and anyways, I go back to work.
I look at my clock in my truck, and it says it's 444. I look at the odometer.
It says 444 miles left to E. And this is four hours and 44 minutes after my conversation with Adam about guardian angels.
So I look up the meaning of 444, and it is your guardian angels want you to know that they have got you. And I'm just, I'm like, holy shit, man.
Like we just had two conversations about guardian angels and now I'm saying 444 everywhere within. Yeah.
And, and, and it's in the meaning of it supposedly, according to Google is your guardian angels want you to know that they've got you. And so I've been in it ever since, and I've had some great mentors and started going to church.
That didn't last very long. And now we have a group of there's four families, including us, a lot of trust, very close friends of ours.

And we just have a discussion every week, every Tuesday.

So when I get home today, that's what we're doing.

And it's cool.

You get to ask the tough questions.

You don't need to be embarrassed.

You're not going to offend anybody.

You don't feel judged like you're going to church.

You know, I always feel like I'm being judged. Oh.
Hello, we're Catholic. Yeah.
Built in. And there's none of that.
And man, you know, when you kind of take all of the BS, the religion kind of injects into your journey of building relationship with the creator and Jesus, it's really interesting and it can be a lot of fun. I know what you're saying.
My audience knows I've been having a not unrelated struggle on that exact score. Really? Yeah, yeah.
I'm Catholic, lifelong Catholic, and I started the process of having my first marriage annulled. And instead of bringing me closer to God or setting me in a path that I thought would land well, it really has kind of alienated me.
And it's caused a bit of a crisis of faith. You know, like, who are these middlemen I have to go through in order to have a clean relationship with God? That doesn't make any sense to me.
I think God loves me and God sees me in a loving marriage with three wonderful kids who have two great parents who are in love. And he's thrilled.
And he will accept me into his kingdom when it's all said and done. And if he doesn't, it's certainly not going to be because I didn't get a paper, I got a paper divorce from Dan, but I didn't get an annulment from a priest, you know, and then Mary dug in a Catholic church.
It doesn't make any sense to me. So that's sort of where I am right now.
I'm still wrestling with it. I got tons of great feedback, by the way, thank you to my audience, because so many thoughtful emails on it from Catholic listeners, but also just Christian listeners who don't believe in that middleman thing either.
I haven't resolved it. Well, I'll give my opinion to myself.
Why? The middleman is a lie. There are no no middle men it's just about you and your relationship and that's it they'll let you know that and when you think like that I mean it's a it gives me a sense of peace you know and then you start looking at all the stuff that's going on, like Trans Visibility Day being declared on Easter Sunday.
Like, you can't tell me these aren't signs, you know? And this is all, like I said, this is all in there. I'm still reading through it.
I'm not through it all yet. I don't claim to be an expert, but, you know, I see things.
I have a team to lean on who's well-versed in this stuff. That was very fortunate.
And everything we're seeing happen is in that book. And when you come to that realization, it's really odd.
But all the stuff that was bothering me,

and it still does bother me, but at the same time,

it makes me stronger because that was supposed to happen.

That's in that book. Up, really, Trans Visibility Day, a confusion of genders on Easter Sunday,

making a mockery of the resurrection. Like that was in there.
Yep. And so.
So how do you feel now? Do you feel a difference physically, emotionally? Oh, yeah. Now versus during the Chinese trial balloon period, which was dark? Definitely.
I mean, I'm at peace with it. I mean, I'm still going to fight the good fight, and I'm still going to bring truth and uncover corruption and tell these stories, and I'm not going to bend a knee to anything.
But seeing it all happen, it is actually making me stronger because I found something in a world of nothing that makes any sense at all, not a damn bit of sense. This makes all the sense in the world.
It aligns with the values that I've always had, or maybe I align with its values, you know. But, yeah, it's.
And, and then you start learning about, you know, maybe forgiveness is for you and not for the people that did something bad to you that was unjust. You know, it's, it's, it's for your sense of peace, not for theirs.
You can go on and waste all that bad energy hating somebody and talking shit about them and, you know, complaining, you know, I got screwed over and I'm a victim and da-da-da-da-da. But the minute you forgive them, that's off your plate and it just, it's like a cleanse.
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Fox does control everybody who works there.

Trust me, I know.

That's why it's so amazing to be in the independently, right?

It's like, you guys say that.

You can say whatever the hell you want.

The thing that's changed is that the news has become totally commoditized, right?

You can basically get the same facts everywhere.

And I think what people have sniffed out is that it's people's opinions, especially smart people who are consistent. That's what matters.
You're one, Tucker's one, you know, on the left, Ezra Klein is one. There's people on both sides.
But my point is that what people don't care about is if you, for example, you know, wrote an article and the byline said the New York Times, you just wouldn't care as much as you used to. And in five years, they'll care even less.
And it's the same with Fox. Now, those people, for a moment, they had the right to have the business model that they did because, you know, let's take Fox as an example.
They literally spent billions of dollars to build the broadcast infrastructure to get in front of people. But that's been undone.
And so now I think the next 20 or 30 years will be about people who can be articulate, consistent, interesting. Some people will want partisan, some people will want independent, but that sorting function is going on right now.
And I think that's where the media, I don't want to say that they lie, but I think that they can be, their insecurity around this one thing comes through in so many articles. You see it in the Doge articles.
You see it in this article about the red seat. You see it everywhere if you're paying attention for it, which is what they're really expressing is we're not nearly as important as we used to be.
And so they have to go to more and more extremes because the relaying of the news doesn't really add that much value. You can go on X and get that in eight seconds.
And control, Megan, this is about control. You and Tucker, supremely talented, they controlled you because they gave you these giant multi-year deals.
You guys were at the top of your game. Eight-figure deals is extraordinary.
You guys top-ticked it, as we say in the business. You hit the peak.
And it's scary to be talent and then start from zero again. But you did it.
And now you control it. And now Tucker controls it.
But you can see their top-down control ruins the editorial. You can see it in that Dominion case that Fox had to settle.
It matters. They start, yeah, and they start messing with you and they try to steer you in one direction or the other.
It's even more subtle than that. The audience gets it.
The audience understands it now. Yeah.
And it's more subtle than that. You don't need a $750 million lawsuit to go against you.
Now what you have are things like the CBS clip of 60 Minutes. Yes.
All of that just subtly chips away at people's trust, right? Now, I used to watch 60 Minutes religiously on Sundays. When I was growing up as a kid, I thought, okay, this is where I, you know, watch for an hour and I'm a little bit smarter for it.
And now when you see these kinds of things, you think to yourself, what is the point of even watching these clips? And then when you see the clip being distributed, you think to yourself, well, is this yet another moment where CBS cherry picks the editing of something to portray a message? I don't want the cognitive load of having to deal with that and figure it out. I got, you know, I have kids, I have a business, I have a family, I'm trying to live my life, Just give it to me straight.
And if you're giving me an opinion, I want to know up front that it's your opinion. But what I don't want is the manipulation.
It really is. Over time, you realize who you can trust and who you cannot.
And, you know, for me, it's like that's it's fine. You know, I'm happy for Chris.
I'm happy for Fox. But it matters who controls this show.
And some were suggesting like they have an ownership. I own 100% of the Megyn Kelly show.
I don't have investors. I have nobody.
I have me. And that's the other thing.
Like they're not wrong. When I worked at Fox, you couldn't say any, if you said anything like to the press, Irina Briganti, that snake would be all over you.
They'd be dropping hip pieces on you to try to control you. And I'm delighted to have nothing to do with this person.
She, I don't know, you know, what, I don't think Fox has any delusions that they would control me because they sell ads for me in this new context. But it's delightful to be able to not worry about people like that, you know? And you guys know, maybe you don't know, because I know you had lean years.
We talked about how Chamath worked at Burger King when he was a kid. But, you know, after Fox and NBC, both of those organizations tried to destroy me, 100% tried to destroy me.
And you have those nights in your bed where you're kind of like sad and your career is blown up and you're like, Jesus. And bit by bit, then you build it back.
And the last thing you want is for somebody to come in and be like, oh, she sold out. She sold out to one of them.
Like in the end, she bent the knee and went back. That's not at all what happened.
I had nothing to do with this. It wasn't my decision.
And when I tweeted that out again, not trying to antagonize Fox. I see why they're smart to have made this move, just setting the record straight.
But that's when I tweeted it out. You guys won't be surprised to learn.
Everybody, every one of the people who follows me on Twitter was like, we got your back. We get it.
We knew it. We don't worry.
It was just a brand new world. Can I can I make a three? Just three legs of the stool, Megan.
You have two of them and you got half of one. You got to make

that last leg of the stool very strong. I agree with that.
Chamath and I, we brainstormed and we

built this infrastructure inside of All In so that we never have to bend the knee. And we have the FU

money and the FU platform. There's a picture.
I don't know if Allison, you can find it, but there's

a picture of SpaceX's engines. They're the Raptor engines and they're sitting side by each.
Okay, Raptor 1, then Raptor version 2, then Raptor version 3. And I think what's happening in the creator economy is very akin to that picture, which is that if you're going to build something real, and I think the creator economy is real because mainstream media is decaying, to build something real takes at least 15 years.
There's no shortcuts. There's nothing you can do about it.
And what happens is the first version, all it has to do is just kind of work and hang together. And a lot of people will dunk on you.
And a lot of people think that you're still kind of, you know, wasting your time or you're working on a pet project or whatever, but you're not. Because the minute you get that version one working and you've gotten version one working, Tucker has, Ezra Kelly has kind of, but he should really leave the New York Times and do it on his own.
Or Ezra Klein, sorry. What you are then allowed to do is work on version two.
And version two is the first version of it that's like a real thing that can stand alone. And then four or five years later, you get to this version three and that is just excellence.
And that's when everybody else goes out of business. And I see this pattern in so many businesses.
It's going to happen in this creator economy. So you, Mr.
Beast, us, Tucker, we're on version one. It's very rough around the edges.
People are figuring it out. We're all going to make mistakes.
But that version two is when there's going to be this meaningful downtick in the New York Times, in the Washington Post, in the Wall Street Journal. By the way, I said this, I had probably 15 media subscriptions.
I'm down to one, which is the Wall Street Journal. And I'm looking for every reason to just dump it.
And for me, it's the anxiety of there's probably some financial news that I will miss and I won't really get on X or with the other places. But the minute I feel like I can, I will.
Now, version two has to solve a much bigger problem though, which is in once we're all out there making opinions, the other problem that it will highlight is that the algorithms are brittle. And we're going to have to figure out, well, how is our information getting in front of the right people? And how do we make sure that it's not just a bunch of million echo chambers so that we become fragmented? That's not solved because right now we go into a centralized algorithm, right? Everything goes into one version inside of Meta or inside of X or inside of Google.
And Jason's talked about this before, which is this idea like there should be a marketplace and a competition for these algorithms as well. That's the next part of fixing the media cycle.
Because some people may literally want to just stay in a partisan bubble, but some people want the media diet to be balanced. How do you get that? Today, it's impossible.
It's funny because I was speaking with a very smart person about YouTube algorithms. And this person doesn't work for YouTube.
But I was saying, well, how do you, you know, how can the Megyn Kelly show go from three and a half million subscribers to 20 million subscribers? And it later became clear to me that this person was of the left. And of course, his answer was, you have to be more moderate, put on more Democrats, reach across the aisle.
I'm like, okay, how can we do it without me changing my business model? Because I must be honest. And I don't think the secret to my next level success is to populate the show with a bunch of leftists.
I do have a lot of Democrats on the show, but the answer is not to change anything about my content. It's to make sure the algorithm picks up the content.
The most important thing in media, and I told this to my squad on All In when I was, you know, in the early days, it was just hard to get these guys to show up every week. And I just sat them all down and I said, guys, the number one way to be successful in media

is to show up every day.

Consistency.

And that's what you have.

You are a juggernaut.

You show up every day.

You're consistent.

And I subscribe to you.

Congratulations on breaking 3 million.

That's extraordinary in a short period of time.

Consistency is the app. Munch responsibly.
Only for My Rewards members for a limited time at participating restaurants. CF for terms.
You were doing campaign work and comms work for Trump. But what about in the interim? Like, what'd you do after Trump 1.0 until then? Yes, so Trump 1.0 started as an intern and then was offered a full-time job, which led me to working in the press office under Kayleigh McEnany, who was my old boss and remains a very good friend to this day.
And then went back home and actually ran for office. I briefly worked for Congresswoman Elise Stefanik, who will soon be our United Nations ambassador.
And she has a, you know, a pack that supports and encourages women to run for office. And I had a conversation with her about being in New Hampshire and the district that I was from, and, you know, really sparked my interest to run myself.
So I went back home and kicked off a congressional campaign, which was an amazing experience. I was in a very competitive primary.
A lot of money from the DC establishment went into the race against me. There was a lot of negative ads.
I won the primary, ultimately lost the general election. New Hampshire's a tough state to win at the federal level, unfortunately, for a few reasons, but it worked out.
Did that thicken your skin right up, though? Totally. Oh, my gosh.
There's a reason for all these steps in the journey. I have so much respect for anyone who puts their name on a ballot because nothing is off limits.
They will go after you and your family and everything is on the line when you decide to be a public servant and run. But I don't have no regrets.
I met amazing people and it taught me so many skills and life lessons. And it was a wonderful experience.
You're a nicer person than I am. I definitely do not have respect for anybody who puts their name on a ballot.
I can think of several people who never should have done that. That's true.
Well, there's some people, yeah. But you're generous.
All right. So at the same time, you're building a family life.
You fall in love. I didn't know until today that you married a man who's a lot older.
Yes. He's 59, you're 27.
Yes. How did that happen? I met my husband during my congressional campaign.
A mutual friend of ours hosted an event at a restaurant that he owns up in New Hampshire and invited my husband. And I was speaking and we met, we were acquainted as friends and then we fell in love, as you said.
Was there any like, I can't date him. He's 59.
Yes, of course. I mean, it's very atypical love story, but he's incredible.
He's my greatest supporter. He's my best friend.
He's my rock. And, you know, he's built a very successful business himself.
So now he's fully supportive of me building, you know, my success in my career. And he's the father of my child, of course, and he's the best dad I could ever ask for.
And so supportive, especially during this very chaotic period of life. That poor man, he had no idea what was gonna happen.
I say, I walked into your life and it's been a circus ever since, but God bless him because he's fully on board. So he's an Italiano.
Yes. Yes.
Yes. He's a lover.
Yes. He's a romantic man.
Yeah. So there's your babe.
Yes. Born in July.
That's your little boy. My little boy.
What's his name? Nicholas and we call him Nico. Oh, yeah.
I know we talked about this a little backstage at the Super Bowl. But how are you handling I I mean, true new motherhood is not even a year, and this crazy job? Yeah, it's a lot.
No denying it. He's seven months.
I had him in the midst of the presidential campaign three days before the president almost lost his life in Butler, Pennsylvania. My son was born on the 10th.
The president was shot on the 13th. It was my first day home with him from the hospital.
And it kind of threw me right back to work much sooner than I would have probably expected or hoped. But becoming a mother in the midst of this very chaotic political world that I work in has been the best thing I could have ever imagined because it gives you great perspective and it humbles you.
And my son doesn't give a crap about my job. He just wants me to come home and snuggle and play toys and be present.
So it's a difficult balance to prioritize being good at my job and being good as a mother. But I just try to prioritize my time and carve out that time when I can.
And I'm so grateful to have the support system I do. A great husband who can be very present with our child.
And then of course, a wonderful mother and father and friends who chip in when I need them. Your parents must be so proud of you.
I think so. I hope so.
Give them a grandchild and access to President Trump in the same year. My mom actually was in town this week to help with our baby because my husband had some work things to attend to.
And she came to my briefing yesterday. She was in the room.
I was like, are you sure you want to go in? Did she get annoyed by pesky reporters being rude? Well, I brought in some backup yesterday. I brought in my colleague, Walt and Steven and Kevin.
So a lot of the questions were for them. So I asked her after, I said, how was it? She was like, thank God all the questions weren't to you today.
I would have been dying in there. So she enjoyed it very much.
That's my Nana who died at 101. She was in her elderly years, not that able to like get out and around.
So if I had a important court argument that was on tape, I would show it to her and she would get so mad at the judges. She didn't think that they should be allowed to ask me any questions.
She didn't like opposing counsel. Why is he saying that about you? They don't totally get it.
It's a motherly bias that we have for our babies. All right.
So you are balancing with the baby. Can I just ask you one other question on that? Because we talk about it all the time, especially on the right.
And I too am a working mom and always have been. I've been a professional woman since I graduated from college or law school.
But now there's, I think a good thing, which is like the restoration of valuing so-called traditional moms and that's great. The women who take care of their kids full time, most of my best friends are doing exactly that.
But it seems like in the right, there's like some, a bit of a shift toward like, you can't do what Caroline's doing. That's actually like an unsafe or a dangerous or a bad choice for families, for children, which I reject wholesale, but you hear it more and more.
Yeah. Do you hear that? And what do you think of it? I would reject that it's a bad choice.
Is it a tough choice? Absolutely. You know, as a mother, you want to be with your child 24 seven.
You have that maternal instinct. Like 27.
Not all the time. Well, right now, yes, because he's seven months and just squishy and lovable, but I'm sure that will change.
No, but you do have that maternal instinct, but also recognizing I'm doing this work for my son and for all children to make this country better. And it's a once in a lifetime opportunity.
It's also very, it's temporary, right? In four years, my son will be four years old and the president will no longer be at the White House and then I'll move on and do something else. But this chaos of 24 seven work is a temporary matter.
And that's what at least I tell myself to get through these very long and hard days. But I would reject that you can't be a good mom and be good at your job.
I think you can do both. Certainly it's not for everybody.
And it takes a lot of work and will and faith and prayer. And it's hard, but it can be done.
And, you know, I would reject that. We can't chase our great conservative moms out of the workforce.
Right. Then we get rid of you.
We get rid of Katie Britt. We get rid of Usha Vance.
Like this is not the way, Amy Coney Barrett is not of the Supreme. Like that's not, that should not be the place the conservative movement lands.
I agree. All right.
So now you start as White House press secretary and were you thrilled to get that invitation? Of course. Yes.
I was very humbled and honored and I was campaigning, you know, with the president over the past year through the court trials. We sat in that courthouse in Manhattan with the Bragg trial, so many rallies, and we worked so damn hard to win that election.
You must have really wrestled with how you were going to meet the high bar set by Corrine Jean-Pierre. Was that? Sorry, sorry.
Was that out loud? No, she was terrible. Yeah.

I mean, come on.

Yeah.

So how has your approach differed, would you say?

I think it's vastly different.

And if you ask people, even in the legacy media, even the Trump haters, they will tell you the approach has been much different.

Not just for me, but the entire White House.

Oh, absolutely.

They come in my office every day and they'll admit that off the record.

Maybe not on the record, but they will say they appreciate the access and the transparency and the preparation that goes into my briefings and everybody on our team, by the way, who goes out to the cameras and speaks. We have great policy experts who are great spokespeople for the president and they appreciate the information that they're being given.

They're also exhausted, by the way, because we are doing so much.

And not even in a wussy, sad little way.

They must be exhausted. It's just nonstop.

It's insane.

Yes.

Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

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