Charlie Kirk "Curse," ABC Affiliates vs. Kimmel, and Kamala's Disastrous Book Tour Begins, with Mark Halperin | Ep. 1155

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Speaker 13 Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on SiriusXM channel 111 every weekday at Noon East.

Speaker 17 Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly.

Speaker 13 Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show.

Speaker 19 There is big news breaking right now around the Jimmy Kimmel saga.

Speaker 14 We've had both Sinclair and Nexstar, who own one-third of the affiliates, TV affiliates in this country airing ABC, have both now said, we don't really care that Disney wants to put him back on the air.

Speaker 30 We're in charge of our affiliate programming and we're not airing him.

Speaker 14 So it's just gotten very interesting. And that is where we're going to kick it off in about, well, just a few minutes with Mark Halperin, who's standing by.

Speaker 35 But first, I have a sort of out-of-left field story to bring to you.

Speaker 37 And then I want to start with it.

Speaker 39 I've been wrestling with whether to bring you this story for a few days now.

Speaker 38 I've been wrestling because I find it so vile and off

Speaker 39 and odd, I wasn't even sure where to go with it.

Speaker 44 But I decided that I had to do it because the groups who did this deserve public censure.

Speaker 30 I learned when I was out in Arizona last week that two weeks before Charlie Kirk was assassinated, the far left website Jezebel declared that it had a mission to cast bad luck or a curse on Charlie.

Speaker 39 They wanted to hurt him in some way.

Speaker 16 They declared, quote, if the far-right misogynist with a bad haircut wants to villainize independent women, Jezebel is more than happy to be the hag of his nightmares.

Speaker 30 And they went on to the website Etsy, yes, Etsy, to quote, cast a curse on him.

Speaker 48 Yes, this is actually a thing.

Speaker 58 Etsy, the website known for making arts and crafts on demand, will happily cast a hex through its witches, who you can hire, on someone if you ask them to.

Speaker 60 The Jezebel crew was delighted to discover, quote, it's not uncommon for the so-called witches on Etsy to channel their energy toward thwarting Republicans.

Speaker 60 There's even a subreddit devoted to casting nightly hexes on Trump.

Speaker 25 Jezebel decided Charlie Kirk, who they repeatedly described as far-right, the founder of the right-wing conspiracy theory factory, Turning Point USA, is quote, more irritating than most,

Speaker 43 and asked its audience if they were quote interested in punishing Kirk for years of regressive rhetoric with a curse, with a hex on him.

Speaker 43 After all, they told readers, he's basically a fake news vending machine.

Speaker 60 The article notably does not list the name of any particular author, but simply uses its company name as the byline.

Speaker 43 So we don't know exactly which writer or staffer at Jezebel, which has long been a disgusting publication, came up with the idea.

Speaker 68 But since they're attributing it to all of them, so will we in terms of our blame.

Speaker 13 It was, in fact, the brainchild of of one writer, however, because it is written in the first person, a female.

Speaker 14 The writer explains, now, is it ethical to curse a man I've never met?

Speaker 73 Probably not.

Speaker 60 But is it unethical to let him keep talking?

Speaker 74 Yes.

Speaker 49 Now comes the obligatory ass covering paragraph in the piece, just to stave off any negative publicity for Jezebel.

Speaker 56 Quote, I want to make it clear, I'm not calling on dark forces to cause him harm.

Speaker 77 I just want him to wake up every morning with an inexplicable zit.

Speaker 56 I want his podcast microphone to malfunction every time he hits record.

Speaker 29 I want his blue blazers to suddenly all be one size too small.

Speaker 58 I want one of his socks to always be sliding down his foot.

Speaker 48 I want his thumb to grow too big to tweet, to ruin his day with the collective feminist power of the Etsy Coven would be my life's greatest joy.

Speaker 14 So even in her ass covering, She was asking for Charlie to be rendered less attractive, to not be able to use his microphone and silence his voice, to have discomfort foisted upon him, to stop stop his ability to tweet or spread his message, and to, quote, ruin his day.

Speaker 59 Got it?

Speaker 43 That's the nice part of the Jezebel article.

Speaker 43 She tells the reader she placed her first spell on Etsy, and it was, quote, in all caps, make everyone hate him.

Speaker 30 And she wondered aloud, how long would it take to kick in?

Speaker 61 The witch, servicing Jezebel on Etsy, contacted the writer and asked if she would like to, quote, amplify the energetic support of the spell for an extra 50 bucks.

Speaker 4 She did it.

Speaker 30 She goes on, for the powerful hex spell, I had to provide Kirk's date of birth for accuracy.

Speaker 52 The witch informed her that she, the witch, had performed the hex and that it was successful.

Speaker 83 Jezebel wanted to know when they were getting results on their curse.

Speaker 14 And while their article about all of this hit, it was published on Monday, September 8th, it makes clear that the writer contacted, contracted for the curse in late August.

Speaker 81 She says she wanted it to line up with the new moon in Virgo, which this year meant August 23rd.

Speaker 83 That tracks because she points out in the piece that by August 24th, she was waiting impatiently for results.

Speaker 42 The witch, they reveal, promised on August 23rd that, quote, you will see the first results within two to three weeks.

Speaker 30 This was 18 days before Charlie was killed.

Speaker 56 Not satisfied with this curse, the amped up one, alone, Jezebel reached out to a, quote, third witch, Priestess Lilly.

Speaker 43 Jezebel opined: if enough people cursed a single person, would the results be stronger?

Speaker 29 Quote, when I asked her if she'd noticed more political figures being targeted these days, she said yes.

Speaker 42 The next day, Lilly sent the Jezebel writer proof of the hex she had cast, quote, a photograph in flames, the edges slowly curling inward, engulfing Charlie's ridiculous, scrunched-up little face.

Speaker 44 She whispered, I imagine, writes to the Jezebel reporter, trust the unseen.

Speaker 90 Chills, writes Jezebel.

Speaker 64 Sunday, August 24th passed, writes the author, and nothing.

Speaker 9 Monday, August 25th, still nothing.

Speaker 80 Tuesday, August 26th, nothing.

Speaker 87 But then she writes, she reminded herself, this is witchcraft, not Amazon.

Speaker 58 The forces operate on their own schedule.

Speaker 43 The Jezebel writer ends the piece as follows.

Speaker 29 So, did my Etsy curses work?

Speaker 94 Time will tell.

Speaker 84 The forces move in mysterious ways, and as the priestess Lillin reminded me, spell work is a collaboration between the caster, the client, and the universe itself.

Speaker 87 For now, we can only trust in the timing of the great unknown.

Speaker 79 To you, Mr.

Speaker 30 Kirk, may the rash come swiftly.

Speaker 44 Two and a half weeks after those curses were requested and cast, two days after Jezebel published that article, Charlie was killed by an assassin's bullet.

Speaker 86 I know what you're thinking.

Speaker 52 This is a bullshit Etsy curse.

Speaker 39 Why are we spending time on this?

Speaker 49 I'm going to get to that in a minute. Stay with me for now.

Speaker 75 After the shooting, Jezebel took down the article, quote, on the recommendation of our lawyers.

Speaker 79 They underscored that the piece was meant to be humorous, intended as satire, and that they made clear they wished Charlie, quote, no physical harm, which is not the full story now, is it?

Speaker 97 At the same time, they said of the article, quote, We stand by every word, which means they did want him cursed, they wanted everyone to hate him, they wanted it to be powerful, and they wanted Charlie, quote, punished for years of regressive rhetoric.

Speaker 16 They also made clear that taking down the article was, quote, driven by an abundance of caution for our staff.

Speaker 63 In other words, they were worried about violence against them by Charlie Kirk supporters.

Speaker 79 They also, they wrote, wished, quote, to avoid the piece being misused in a tense and volatile environment.

Speaker 20 There was not, they made clear, any change in their editorial judgment.

Speaker 81 In fact, they emphasized, quote, we may republish at a later date.

Speaker 77 They then rambled on about the country's gun problem and the heated political divide in the country and free speech, noting they do not actually condone political violence.

Speaker 14 Now, again, you may be saying to yourself, why are we talking about Etsy curses?

Speaker 37 None of this is real.

Speaker 101 Well, two things.

Speaker 9 First of all, Christians are opposed to casting spells or trying to contact the spirit world.

Speaker 51 Not only because they believe there's only one God, but because they acknowledge the existence of the devil and evil spirits.

Speaker 22 Here is Father Mike Schmidt.

Speaker 29 He was on the day Charlie died helping us through that as well.

Speaker 13 But he came on our show first time a couple of years ago.

Speaker 75 And here he is discussing this very subject.

Speaker 103 The motivation behind the Ouija board is actually something where I'm trying to contact spirits.

Speaker 103 And someone could say, well, I'm trying to contact nice spirits or good spirits. And the unfortunate thing we know about is that, yes, when God created angels, he created angels.
They're good.

Speaker 103 They're beautiful. They're in harmony with him.
But also we know that a number of those said no to God. A person who's reasonable would say, but I'm just playing.

Speaker 103 And I would say, I completely understand that.

Speaker 103 And then I would say, at the same time, at the same time.

Speaker 103 You remember the movie The Exorcist?

Speaker 35 Of course. Yeah.

Speaker 103 How can you forget it?

Speaker 108 So that story is based off of two true stories.

Speaker 103 And one of the true stories is, I believe, about, if I can get the details right, is about a young man who was at, you know, kind of like a birthday party, some kind of celebration of some sort with kids, and they just busted out the Ouija board and just played for fun.

Speaker 103 But that was an entry point

Speaker 103 for what ultimately became a possession.

Speaker 112 In other words, you're playing with fire messing with this stuff.

Speaker 14 There actually are demons in this world.

Speaker 113 Calling up the spirit world, in particular the devil's spirit world, can actually have real world consequences.

Speaker 39 It's not something to mess with. Many Christians believe this.

Speaker 89 This is dangerous. It's not a game.

Speaker 62 It's literally evil.

Speaker 55 Second,

Speaker 15 this is what I really want you all and the people at Jezebel and Etsy to know.

Speaker 47 Erica and Charlie Kirk heard about these curses

Speaker 9 and that news genuinely rattled Erica in particular.

Speaker 44 She knew Christian teaching on the subject.

Speaker 116 She loved Charlie absolutely.

Speaker 39 And she was scared when she heard of the curses Jezebel had called up.

Speaker 55 So much so that she and Charlie contacted a friend who I believe she said was a Catholic priest, but definitely a friend, and asked him to come over and pray with them over Charlie the night before he was murdered.

Speaker 64 She eventually worked it through, and so did Charlie.

Speaker 6 That as she later told me, weapons will form but not prosper.

Speaker 44 That Satan and those witches have no power.

Speaker 96 Of course, God's will is the one that matters, and his blessing over Charlie was real and palpable.

Speaker 6 All you had to do was spend time with Charlie to know that.

Speaker 112 But why torture a family like this, a Christian, believing family?

Speaker 44 Why do this vile thing to a young couple, parents, to two babies, living in accordance with the gospel, deeply in love.

Speaker 16 Yes, political, but doing nothing other than speaking publicly about their views and their desires to make other people's lives better.

Speaker 30 Who would do such a vile thing?

Speaker 5 Jezebel, that's who.

Speaker 63 And unbelievably, Etsy.

Speaker 50 And the people behind this evil, they should be called out.

Speaker 16 That's why I'm talking about it as our lead.

Speaker 50 They should be called out.

Speaker 117 Jezebel should be forced to identify the woman who wrote this and did this.

Speaker 5 Jezebel should close, frankly. It has zero redeeming virtues or value.

Speaker 60 Etsy should stop this practice immediately and get back to arts and crafts and jewelry.

Speaker 18 And both entities should issue an immediate, full-throated apology to Erica Kirk for introducing this awfulness into her beautiful family and causing her or Charlie any distress whatsoever in what would be the waning hours of his life.

Speaker 43 It's not easy to contact them.

Speaker 52 Etsy's easier than Jezebel.

Speaker 19 Etsy, you can email them, press at

Speaker 94 etsy.com.

Speaker 84 Press at etsy.com.

Speaker 51 Jezebel intentionally makes it difficult for you to reach out to them, though we did for comment on this piece and to ask them whether they will indeed republish this article

Speaker 9 and other questions as well.

Speaker 14 They didn't get back to us, but here's how you do it if you are so inclined.

Speaker 96 You go to their website,

Speaker 16 you click on contact, and then you submit your comment.

Speaker 14 Joining me now is Mark Halperin. He's host of Next Up with Mark Halperin on the MK Media Podcast Network.

Speaker 95 You can go and subscribe to it right now on Apple, Spotify, YouTube.

Speaker 42 It's called Next Up with Mark Halperin.

Speaker 14 Mark was also at Charlie Kirk's memorial service on Sunday.

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Speaker 55 I'm just, I'm upset by it, Mark.

Speaker 14 I'm upset by it.

Speaker 61 And I realize you can easily dismiss this as like, what?

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 43 I saw Erica Kirk.

Speaker 39 And when I talked to Erica last week, she was so strong.

Speaker 14 She was so composed, but in 30 minutes together, 20 minutes together, she literally never stopped having tears come out of her eyes.

Speaker 6 Like at no point did the tears stop flowing.

Speaker 14 She was able to talk and express herself beautifully, but she is literally in constant pain. And I have her permission to share that this is one of the things we talked about.

Speaker 9 She did not ask me to come and publish it.

Speaker 87 I've been thinking about it ever since, and I asked her for permission and I've received it.

Speaker 49 And she also wanted me to emphasize the second part of what I said, which is that they had gotten to the point of realizing that the devil had no power over Charlie, that these witches had no power over Charlie.

Speaker 14 But obviously, for Christians, for deep believing Christians, this kind of thing actually really can rattle your cage. And to me, it stood out that it was one of the things still on her mind.

Speaker 43 You know, that in the days after Charlie had died, it's fucking vile.

Speaker 86 It's just, we've crossed some

Speaker 56 decency bridge that we didn't used to cross.

Speaker 36 And even now hearing this, I have zero hope that Jezebel or Etsy actually will apologize to Erica Kirk because they really are missing that fundamental human decency.

Speaker 39 Your thoughts on it?

Speaker 125 Well, since Jezebel has been around, they've made their living off of a lack of fundamental human decency.

Speaker 130 And you and I, throughout our careers, have railed against such things.

Speaker 132 But this is different, right? This is different. This is the real world.

Speaker 137 And I think it's of a piece with what you hear from some in even the quote-unquote respectable media and from some Democrats who treat this like the assassination of such a beautiful man as just another thing to write about and make fun of.

Speaker 128 And

Speaker 131 these people who make their lives writing, and I'd say the same thing about some of the media writers who are so irresponsible, with a coarseness and a lack of appreciation for the real lives of real people who participate on the national town square, and for that, get condemned to mockery, cancellation, threats.

Speaker 134 If anything comes out of this, that's good.

Speaker 110 This would be a good one for these places to be shut down, not through boycott, not through government censorship, but through the market speaking.

Speaker 139 That in the United States of America, we just don't want this level of coarseness about such a tragedy

Speaker 151 and in everyday life.

Speaker 136 People shouldn't be subjected to this regardless of whether they're assassinated or not.

Speaker 113 The nerve of them saying they took down this piece about their casting spells on Charlie to protect their writers because they were worried about violence from Charlie's

Speaker 6 supporters against them.

Speaker 118 We've seen this repeatedly, you know, that the left now, of course, refusing to acknowledge the political leanings of the actual shooter, of trying to both sides it,

Speaker 14 like of trying to pretend that the MAGA wing is violent when here we are, you know, 12 days after, 13 days after Charlie was killed, and there's been no right-wing violence in response to an assassination of one of their most important figures.

Speaker 59 Nothing.

Speaker 57 It's a narrative that gets pushed by the left about MAGA in particular.

Speaker 89 It's and it too is vile.

Speaker 141 I wish everybody in the country could have been in Arizona to experience the level of love and warmth and

Speaker 155 tolerance that existed throughout that, most specifically and sharpest relief embodied by Erica Kirk.

Speaker 156 But

Speaker 132 to take

Speaker 160 an assassination and for her to forgive the alleged killer and for people to meet hate with love sets a great example.

Speaker 105 And these places on the internet, on social media that make their livings from hate,

Speaker 139 they just they have to they'll have to just use this opportunity, I hope in this case and in general, to recognize that this isn't, this isn't the way to make a living.

Speaker 163 There's just no sense in making a living this way.

Speaker 164 It's not good for your soul.

Speaker 105 And I hope it's not good for your business long term of people who make their living like this.

Speaker 6 What did you make of the Memorial Bar?

Speaker 122 Because all day, you know, in the lead up to the actual beginning of the ceremony.

Speaker 75 And then once the ceremony began, we were listening listening to Christian music.

Speaker 39 You had people with their arms up, you know, as Christians will do in a revivalist sense to the music. Already that's being spun as Nazi salutes already on X.

Speaker 52 It's so predictable.

Speaker 29 Christians, when they hear music preaching the gospel or, you know, with Christ's word, will often put one or both hands up.

Speaker 76 like that, like you're touching God.

Speaker 75 You're sending your positive feelings and reactions to what you're hearing up to those singing the words on stage.

Speaker 55 This has been going on since I was a child.

Speaker 18 I don't remember a time when we weren't doing this.

Speaker 19 And already we have people on X.

Speaker 78 The Nazi salute was at Charlie Kirk's memorial.

Speaker 17 And just ignoring what is happening in the moment, like the beauty that was in that arena.

Speaker 111 It was beautiful and uplifting and consistent.

Speaker 132 And although there were some remarks that were a little bit political,

Speaker 141 I watched closely, and this is how I've made my living in my life, is being able to read a crowd, being able to get a sense of the mood of the crowd.

Speaker 148 And the most

Speaker 137 enthusiastic, intense, and

Speaker 105 loud moments were when people talked about Charlie's relationship with Jesus and the importance of faith and understanding.

Speaker 167 This was

Speaker 137 an event unlike anything else I've ever covered and in its scale and its spirit.

Speaker 40 And that is both not a coincidence and it's something that the people who are still eager to express public hostility to Charlie Kirk, they should try to read into.

Speaker 149 They should try to understand.

Speaker 105 They should try to respect.

Speaker 113 In particular, we heard Erica Kirk trying to appeal to the young men.

Speaker 122 of his country.

Speaker 70 Same group Charlie tried to appeal to.

Speaker 31 And Charlie, you know, told me more than once, that was his base constituency, you know, that young men in America were the ones liking the Charlie Kirk videos showing up for the most part at his campus revivals.

Speaker 14 There were women too, but he understood his core constituency was young men.

Speaker 4 And he loved to get, he used to say, young women present an opportunity.

Speaker 65 You know, as they say to you now at your children's parent-teacher meetings, there's never like, this is a problem.

Speaker 64 It's an opportunity.

Speaker 42 that we can work on.

Speaker 14 So he used to say, young women present an opportunity.

Speaker 88 But Erica Kirk doubled down on that.

Speaker 120 This is what she said on Sunday at his memorial at SOT 3.

Speaker 168 To all the men watching around the world,

Speaker 168 accept Charlie's challenge

Speaker 168 and embrace true manhood.

Speaker 168 Be strong and courageous for your families.

Speaker 168 Love your wives and lead them.

Speaker 168 Love Love your children and protect them.

Speaker 168 Be the spiritual head

Speaker 40 of your home.

Speaker 168 But please be a leader worth following.

Speaker 77 Your wife.

Speaker 169 Your wife is not your servant.

Speaker 169 Your wife is not your employee.

Speaker 169 Your wife is not your slave.

Speaker 168 She is your helper.

Speaker 168 You are not rivals.

Speaker 168 You are one flesh working together for the glory of God.

Speaker 6 Mark, what did you make of the

Speaker 71 her remarks there and in general at the memorial appealing to young men and also to the reaction we've seen from young men.

Speaker 55 I mean black, white, brown, across X in the past two weeks to openly declaring, I am a conservative.

Speaker 92 I am a conservative.

Speaker 13 I never realized it.

Speaker 48 I've seen so many young black men post, I had no idea.

Speaker 14 I always thought I was a Democrat.

Speaker 60 I was told you have to vote Democrat.

Speaker 29 You know, I'm black, we vote Democrat.

Speaker 20 So that's what I did.

Speaker 116 And now listening to these Charlie Kirk videos, I realize I'm not a Democrat.

Speaker 18 I'm a Republican.

Speaker 6 I'm a conservative.

Speaker 14 And I'm registering accordingly.

Speaker 170 Well, first of all, what strength and moral clarity from her?

Speaker 111 Just as I said, I've never seen an event like that.

Speaker 105 I've never seen a public presentation like that.

Speaker 130 And that's not even accounting for the circumstances.

Speaker 139 We've all been struck by the same notion that how could she possibly have done that?

Speaker 158 And part of it was, again, her strength and inner strength and her faith, but also the partnership she had with Charlie.

Speaker 153 And of course, the irony of the fact that he was apparently killed by a young of the very type that he was so concerned about, someone who, through social media and

Speaker 146 messed up things in our society, had moved to a place that could allow him to do something so monstrous.

Speaker 136 I think that I'm not sure the impact this will have on the movement, the turning point movement, the MAGA movement more broadly, and the efforts to reach young men.

Speaker 139 But I think anyone who rules out that this is going to be more than a turning point,

Speaker 142 more than a watershed, this could be something that sweeps up tens of millions of people in politics, in their real lives, in reclamation of the broken system that's left us with so many young men who don't live lives the way life should be lived.

Speaker 125 Lack of purpose, lack moral clarity, lack respect for others, including and especially women.

Speaker 124 I think it could have that effect.

Speaker 132 It's going to require more than has been done so far.

Speaker 105 But her words, I think, will ring through history because of their clarity, their intellectual clarity, and and their moral clarity, and because of the circumstances under which they were delivered.

Speaker 6 Yes, she's got the thing Charlie had, which is she makes you want to be a better person.

Speaker 14 I mean, she makes you want to be a better person.

Speaker 63 She appears, appeals to your better angels, and it's very attractive.

Speaker 55 It's like a magnetic force that she has.

Speaker 101 So I think, notwithstanding the fact that Erica's a woman, Charlie was a man, she can lead this organization and appeal to exactly the same people and then some.

Speaker 34 I mean, she's actually an extra threat because she really will appeal to young women who haven't seen that much of her. She was with Charlie a lot on the trail.

Speaker 87 I saw her myself behind the scenes at a turning point event when we first met.

Speaker 14 But I mean, now she's front and center and she provides a whole new opportunity, truly, for those young women.

Speaker 102 Here is just a little sampling of what I've been seeing all over X Watch.

Speaker 175 Charlie Kirk got shot in a fucking neck. That was the last bastion.
I can't be a liberal no fucking more. You see the fucking comments?

Speaker 176 I hope the gun is okay.

Speaker 175 The same fucking people asking for moral decency. I cannot, in good faith, align myself with you guys anymore.

Speaker 177 My name is John. I have practically no online presence.

Speaker 178 And the reason for that is because I am scared to post things that I believe.

Speaker 177 Yesterday.

Speaker 177 A man died.

Speaker 177 Presumably because he believed the same things that I believe in.

Speaker 178 I am a conservative, and more importantly, I'm a Christian.

Speaker 177 I know that in the grand scheme of things, I don't really matter. No one knows or even cares who I am.

Speaker 177 But

Speaker 177 if there's even one person who sees this and gains the courage to speak up themselves,

Speaker 177 that's why I'm making this.

Speaker 177 Just so that everybody knows that we're not alone.

Speaker 179 I have officially left the Democratic Party a few days ago. The reason I did it was because I cannot be linked and affiliated with a party

Speaker 180 that has members in it that would do exactly what happened

Speaker 179 to Charlie Kirk.

Speaker 182 I didn't know Charlie Kirk, never met that guy before in my life.

Speaker 182 And something else that I've never done before in my life is believing God.

Speaker 113 It feels to me, Mark, like there is a sea change underfoot that we are not going to realize the full extent of perhaps until the midterms.

Speaker 14 I mean, I just can't imagine this doesn't have electoral consequences.

Speaker 38 Your thoughts?

Speaker 111 Well, I think we will know in full force from a political point of view by the midterms, as you said, but I think we may see it in the Virginia governor's race or the New Jersey governor's race.

Speaker 164 I think we'll see it in the fundraising totals from turning point.

Speaker 143 I think we'll see it in social media the way you just described it.

Speaker 134 There's no doubt in my mind this will cause a big change.

Speaker 138 The question is, what's the scale of it?

Speaker 183 And those videos match up a lot of what I'm hearing and seeing.

Speaker 157 But at the same time, you can't dismiss the manifestations of things like that, like the Jezebel thing, or like Democratic members of Congress literally on the day of the service for Charlie going on TV and trashing him.

Speaker 164 You can't underestimate the degree to which the other side's not just going to give up or change their ways.

Speaker 158 So

Speaker 153 this will remain a battle of cultures, a battle of red and blue, a battle of believers versus non-believers to some extent.

Speaker 111 And I think it hangs the balance.

Speaker 125 As I said, just how big a change, how fundamental a change this will cause in the hearts and minds of those, particularly young men who weren't engaged before on this great debate.

Speaker 75 And it's branding.

Speaker 14 I mean, it's like the Democrats have branded themselves as this hateful party.

Speaker 56 And that's what I'm seeing.

Speaker 56 Separate it apart.

Speaker 5 Look, once Charlie was killed, they had an opportunity just to act as humans.

Speaker 39 That's it.

Speaker 88 Like,

Speaker 29 it was a leftist who murdered Charlie.

Speaker 14 There's no question about that.

Speaker 16 But this didn't have to be a smear of the entire left.

Speaker 53 If they had come out and acted like decent humans universally,

Speaker 77 maybe have one fringe person here or there who says something vile.

Speaker 60 But we have had reams of leftists come out and celebrate Charlie's murder, showing truly the same

Speaker 83 inhumanity that led them to not stand for DJ Daniel at the State of the Union, you know, the little boy with cancer,

Speaker 56 you know, to not clap for the people who'd been suffering, the war veterans.

Speaker 60 Like there's something happening on the leftist side that is repelling.

Speaker 22 members of their own party.

Speaker 46 And they don't seem able to get it together, Mark.

Speaker 40 Yeah.

Speaker 124 So I don't always like to do the thought experiment of saying, what if this had been on the other side?

Speaker 187 What if a 31-year-old charismatic young person who had helped Barack Obama get elected?

Speaker 125 What if that person had been assassinated by someone on the right?

Speaker 160 And what if

Speaker 110 many people in the wake of that assassination on the right had gone on TV to criticize?

Speaker 149 the person who'd been killed.

Speaker 132 Okay, so what would happen then?

Speaker 172 The press would condemn it, and the coverage would be about what a crisis in our society this is.

Speaker 162 But every Republican, elected Republican, prominent Republican, would be asked to condemn those words.

Speaker 181 Yes.

Speaker 149 You know, has anyone asked Hakeem Jeffries or Chuck Schumer to condemn what's been said?

Speaker 124 Not just by fringe people, but by members of their fellow members of Congress.

Speaker 124 This is a failure of the press.

Speaker 135 It's a failure of the Democrats.

Speaker 104 And again, it's a reflection of a mindset that was not altered even for 12 hours after Charlie Kirk was assassinated.

Speaker 98 You're so right.

Speaker 55 What we have instead is Ilan Omar out there

Speaker 79 crapping all over Charlie.

Speaker 31 I'm going to show you two SATs, and then I'll show you how she's being treated as a result.

Speaker 80 Here's SOT 29 with her.

Speaker 191 You called Kirk a, quote, hateful man, and you had reposted a video that I'm sure you've seen you've taken criticism for.

Speaker 191 It's a video that called him a reprehensible human being and said, Kirk was Dr. Frankenstein, and his monster shot him through the neck.

Speaker 10 Because there were a lot of things in the video that I did agree with.

Speaker 46 Obviously, we share videos.

Speaker 10 We don't have to agree with every single word. But I do believe he was a reprehensible, hateful man.

Speaker 10 What I find jarring is that there are so many people willing to excuse the most reprehensible things that he said, that they agree with that, that they're willing to have monuments for him, that they want to create a day to honor him.

Speaker 10 And it is one thing to care about his life because obviously so many people

Speaker 10 loved him, including his children and wife. But I am not going to sit here and

Speaker 10 be

Speaker 10 judged for not wanting to honor any legacy this man has left behind. That should be in the dustpin of history.
And we should hopefully move on and forget the hate that he spewed every single day.

Speaker 47 How's your brother?

Speaker 29 How's your brother, husband?

Speaker 52 Let us know. Get back to us.

Speaker 9 Caitlin Collins forgot that question.

Speaker 42 Just a word.

Speaker 14 What she did there at the top was to pull a Jimmy Kimmel.

Speaker 39 He was Dr.

Speaker 71 Frankenstein and his monster, his monster, shot him.

Speaker 83 In other words, the one he created.

Speaker 75 So someone in his image.

Speaker 14 So she's doing a Jimmy Kimmel there, that some MAGA-created monster is the one who took Charlie's life.

Speaker 57 That's a lie.

Speaker 14 Again, totally unchallenged by Caitlin Collins.

Speaker 32 Here is how it then went when Ilon Omar went on MSNBC.

Speaker 9 In the interim, Trump had posted a not-kind tweet about Ilan Omar.

Speaker 24 Here's what happened.

Speaker 192 But also, I want to ask how you are doing.

Speaker 192 You've been attacked by the president, by a colleague whose office is right next door to yours, Congresswoman Nancy Mace.

Speaker 192 I know that you have received messages and voicemails from people threatening you. How are you holding up first?

Speaker 151 Oh, my Lord.

Speaker 193 You know, I've been here before.

Speaker 193 I've been the target of the president in the most vile, bigoted, racist ways that you could imagine.

Speaker 193 And I've had to have full police detail because of that.

Speaker 194 Okay.

Speaker 6 That is nothing but a turnoff to most normal people sitting at home.

Speaker 65 Mark, how does this help?

Speaker 59 anyone on Team Blue?

Speaker 125 I've watched that interview that you showed with Kaylin Collins, and I played part of it on Next Up this week.

Speaker 146 And,

Speaker 159 you know, I'm very forgiving of people saying things on live TV that, you know, they don't really mean or they didn't express perfectly because it happens.

Speaker 144 But that was such a, I say this in air quotes, thoughtful, sustained denunciation of a man who'd been assassinated.

Speaker 195 And there's lots of rhetoric on both sides.

Speaker 105 I'm not saying she's the sole defender, but I don't really understand how she could have said that sustained attack on Charlie Kirk, just a man just been assassinated.

Speaker 109 And a throwaway line, oh, I feel bad for his family.

Speaker 111 I really don't understand it. I don't understand

Speaker 139 where someone has a heart like that or a head like that who could say such things about a man who'd just been assassinated.

Speaker 142 And to do it so openly, to do it full-throated, unembarrassed, defiant.

Speaker 111 I don't understand that.

Speaker 124 And for people like President Obama, who says, well, they're grieving, give them a moment.

Speaker 155 I'd give more than a moment, not just for his family, but for the tens of millions of people who are deeply upset and understandably so.

Speaker 111 I just, I don't understand it.

Speaker 125 I am at a loss to explain how anyone, let alone someone in a position of a public authority as an elected official, could say those things.

Speaker 30 And meanwhile, here is another leftist, very popular Substack star, Heather Richardson Cox.

Speaker 55 On on September,

Speaker 112 sorry, Cox Richardson, spreading on September 17th, okay, 17th, Charlie was killed on the 10th.

Speaker 55 By the 17th, we knew everything.

Speaker 77 We knew about the trans stuff and the furry stuff and the left-wing ideology and he had too much hate allegedly and what was on the bullet casings.

Speaker 18 And she goes on the Bulwark podcast.

Speaker 6 This is another organization dedicated to hating Trump and says the following, Sat 32.

Speaker 194 Text messages do make it appear like he was motivated because he didn't like the things that Charlie Kirk had said about trans people.

Speaker 156 We'll know more eventually.

Speaker 196 Yeah, but you even can't say that because

Speaker 196 until it gets to a court of law and we actually have evidence that is introduced and that, you know, and witnesses and stuff, it's what I said right after the shooting itself, and everybody was making assumptions about who had done it before they caught Robinson.

Speaker 112 Again, it was still

Speaker 112 a little bit,

Speaker 196 you just don't know. It certainly looks one way, but it could be somebody he cut off in traffic for all you know until it's actually been tested.

Speaker 112 She's an idiot.

Speaker 55 Is this where leftists are getting their news and opinion from?

Speaker 16 I mean, it'll explain a lot.

Speaker 186 Yeah, just as so many people on the left continue to ask me, oh, I didn't really know much about the importance of Charlie Kirk.

Speaker 136 I think a lot of people on the right may not know the importance of Heather Cox Richardson.

Speaker 107 She's not there, Charlie Kirk, because

Speaker 105 her contributions are not as broad and varied and as direct as his were.

Speaker 111 But she's extremely powerful, extremely influential on the left through her sub stack, through appearances like that.

Speaker 147 So this is not just some random person of the left.

Speaker 134 This is very influential.

Speaker 172 She's kind of in some ways more influential now than Rachel Maddow.

Speaker 108 And she has been on this since the first day where she wants to indignantly deny the available information about

Speaker 134 the alleged killer.

Speaker 188 And again, I go back to what I said about Congresswoman Omar.

Speaker 151 I don't understand that mentality.

Speaker 106 I don't understand the mentality to try to create a different reality than the evidence suggests for whatever purpose I do not understand.

Speaker 74 All right.

Speaker 102 So that sort of denialism, by the way, this woman has 2.6 million subscribers, so you're not wrong.

Speaker 71 Speaking of being in denial,

Speaker 14 this morning I was listening to, I do it so you don't have to, NPR's up first morning podcast. I always like to hear what the left is saying.

Speaker 28 I know it's painful, but I do it out of love for the audience, not because it's important or objective.

Speaker 17 And

Speaker 87 they were getting into the Kimmel controversy, which we're going to turn to now.

Speaker 68 And they needed to tee up, as any good report will do, how this got started.

Speaker 14 Why are we talking about Jimmy Kimmel?

Speaker 43 What was his alleged offense?

Speaker 62 on the airwaves that caused him to be pulled off the air for a week.

Speaker 3 And here was their summary.

Speaker 43 Just, I mean, I know this audience knows, but just to be clear, he was thrown off the air for a week because he decided to suggest that the shooter of Charlie Kirk was MAGA and that MAGA had been trying to cover for him because he was one of their own.

Speaker 115 But here is how the NPR audience heard about Kimmel's offense.

Speaker 199 Jimmy Kimmel Live will be back on the air tonight, nearly a week after the late night show was pulled off the air.

Speaker 200 During his monologue last week, Kimmel made fun of Trump's reaction to the Charlie Kirk killing and accused MAGA of using his death to score political points.

Speaker 100 Made fun of Trump

Speaker 9 and accused MAGA of using his death to score political points.

Speaker 117 Zero about what Kimmel actually said, Mark.

Speaker 201 And that is by design.

Speaker 68 It is a willful misleading of the audience.

Speaker 71 And they elied the most difficult points of what they're dealing with over there on the leftist team because they're trying to run cover for one of their own.

Speaker 197 Yeah, you know, I still hear from people who say, oh, you're wrong.

Speaker 131 The media is not liberally biased.

Speaker 145 They're corporate biased or whatever.

Speaker 157 I mean,

Speaker 109 that is one example of many, and

Speaker 139 I've read, obsessively read the New York Times and Washington Post coverage of the assassination.

Speaker 132 They just will not drop the same mindset that caused them to participate in an attempted cover-up of Joe Biden's cognitive decline or to cover everything Donald Trump does with hostility.

Speaker 106 This is unfortunately par for the course.

Speaker 144 And those who thought, as maybe I did for 20 seconds, that the assassination of Charlie Kirk would cause a consciousness raising.

Speaker 139 They're just not willing to change their ways just because a man was assassinated.

Speaker 75 Just for the record, here's Thought 20.

Speaker 202 We had some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it.

Speaker 45 Yeah, just so we're all clear on what he actually said.

Speaker 152 So he's coming back now, Mark, but not everywhere.

Speaker 13 It's actually gotten very interesting.

Speaker 87 Just before we came to air, we found out last night we knew that Sinclair, which owns some, I don't know what the number is on Sinclair, a large number, is it 38

Speaker 101 affiliate groups or stations said, we don't care what you say, Disney.

Speaker 37 We're not airing Jimmy Kimmel, and it's up to us.

Speaker 36 Something they were empowered to say by Brendan Carr of the FCC.

Speaker 20 He didn't make them do whatever they did, but he made clear to them: you know, you do have independent authority.

Speaker 13 You actually do have a right to protect the public interest.

Speaker 9 And if you don't want to air Jimmy Kimmel, you don't have to.

Speaker 14 So Sinclair, notwithstanding the fact that Disney said, we're bringing him back.

Speaker 62 Disney held the line for five episodes and then said, oh, wait, we got a nasty letter from Jimmy Kimmel supporting celebrities.

Speaker 84 Okay, we're out. He's back on.

Speaker 54 So Sinclair said, no, we're not airing him.

Speaker 72 And then this morning, just as we came to air, Nexstar 2 said,

Speaker 45 us either.

Speaker 6 We're not airing him either.

Speaker 27 So now you've got some one-third of the ABC affiliates out there airing something else.

Speaker 19 I think it's going to be alternate news programming is the option right now.

Speaker 89 And that's interesting because now we're in the same position we were in yesterday and the day before, Mark.

Speaker 20 Those are the two station groups, station owners who said, we're not airing Kimmel.

Speaker 6 So where are we today, in your view, just just in terms of this fight?

Speaker 164 Well, once upon a time, the relationship between the networks and the station groups were even more

Speaker 131 intense, and the networks were even more dependent on the stations.

Speaker 149 They can put it on Hulu, they could put it on YouTube, so they can distribute more easily in the digital agent without the stations.

Speaker 144 But make no mistake, they're still very dependent on those affiliate relationships.

Speaker 141 And these two big station owners have the right, and I'm sure they think the responsibility to not bring Kimmel back.

Speaker 138 I suspect Disney will try to change their minds, or perhaps this will be the spur to cancel a show that I don't know if it makes money or not, but it's not as popular as it once was.

Speaker 138 This is how the market should work, right?

Speaker 171 Disney can do what it wants, and these station owners can do what they want. And in the end, and almost certainly, the consumers will decide.

Speaker 109 But as you pointed out,

Speaker 104 liberals are really up in arms about this, and they wanted Kimmel back on.

Speaker 106 And amongst the parts of Bob Iger's job is running the Walt Disney company and the ABC network is keeping talent happy. And most of the talent is extremely liberal.

Speaker 86 So who's winning?

Speaker 187 Well, I don't think we know.

Speaker 171 I think we'll have to see if these stations continue to not run the show, if the show gets canceled, if Disney finds some other way to distribute it.

Speaker 149 I mean, the reality is if they put it on YouTube and Hulu,

Speaker 105 they may get a bigger audience than they get, and they may be able to monetize that more than they do on the ABC television network.

Speaker 144 So commercially, it's too soon to say who's winning.

Speaker 108 And I think in terms of the political or ideological fight,

Speaker 161 I think it's good that the market can decide and that these stations can stand up and do what they think's right for their constituencies and for their own personal views.

Speaker 38 See, I think it's great that Nexstar and Sinclair are standing up for their audiences.

Speaker 14 My team tells me that they comprise a total of 22% of U.S.

Speaker 84 households.

Speaker 96 That according to the Wall Street Journal, combined, they own and operate more than 60 ABC affiliates that reach 22% of U.S.

Speaker 38 households.

Speaker 14 So it's a pretty good chunk of the ABC audience, which means, you know, Kimmel's ratings will be inflated because of the controversy. No question.

Speaker 6 I don't know whether we'll see that given the fact that these two affiliate owners are not going to air his show.

Speaker 16 But this is like, to me, this is great because finally conservatives fought back.

Speaker 41 And the station group owners, who are not coastal elites, I mean,

Speaker 16 they represent and heir to people who are not coastal elites.

Speaker 152 They're not on

Speaker 57 Bob Iger's yacht.

Speaker 69 They're not in Beverly Hills being controlled by celebrities.

Speaker 85 They're across flyover country.

Speaker 75 And those are their audiences and constituents who are complaining about Jimmy Kimmel.

Speaker 204 And up until now, they just had to take it.

Speaker 46 They just had to swallow his BS and pretend there was nothing they could do about it.

Speaker 60 And to me, that is what Brendan Carr telegraphed to these station groups last week.

Speaker 185 You actually do have power to say no to Disney.

Speaker 45 And that would be the easy way of making your upset clear. That would be the easy way of you turning around to Disney and saying, we're not airing this crap.

Speaker 51 The hard way, he explained yesterday at a public appearance, would be people start filing complaints against Disney and the affiliate groups, and then the FCC has to look into the complaints, and it becomes a more tricky, sticky matter.

Speaker 76 We didn't get there.

Speaker 140 Yeah.

Speaker 111 Before Charlie was assassinated and before Chairman Carr raised this, there were two points that are germane, but have been a little bit overtaken and overlooked.

Speaker 141 One is, I think most sensible people on the left and the right don't think the system where the government, the FCC,

Speaker 138 polices these entities is is sensible.

Speaker 161 It existed once upon a time when there was so little media that it was important that the public interest be represented.

Speaker 125 But

Speaker 106 I think this is an anachronism that the FCC has oversight over these kinds of communications.

Speaker 141 And then, second, these stations in their news coverage and in their late-night comedy shows, these networks, have been distributing biased programs, culturally, politically biased programs for a very long time.

Speaker 137 And so, while Sinclair and Nexstar chose to act in this instance,

Speaker 132 they could have, and many would argue should have, long before, to use the same economic power, the same leverage they have to say, why should every late night comedian be hostile to Donald Trump and hostile to Republicans?

Speaker 145 Why shouldn't the broadcast networks have something that's either not political or equal opportunity offender?

Speaker 106 The Saturday Night Live actually has been relatively balanced, not equal, but they did jokes during the Biden years, for instance, about Joe Biden.

Speaker 108 These other programs, they are just propaganda arms for the Democratic Party.

Speaker 147 And I don't know why Sinclair and Nextstar didn't act sooner, but they've acted belatedly in response to one particular thing with the same principle, which is they have economic power and they're going to serve, as you said, their viewers and their constituencies, as opposed to the corporate masters in Burbank.

Speaker 33 What a remarkable new model.

Speaker 43 I mean, I just don't remember this ever happening, Mark.

Speaker 14 I don't remember in all my time in television, I don't remember affiliates doing doing this.

Speaker 145 Yeah, it's happened. I think it's happened with programming.

Speaker 138 I think it may have happened with an episode of Roseanne or of Ellen that some stations in the South didn't want a program that dealt with what we would call sensitive subject matter.

Speaker 106 I think it happened around then, but not in as high profile a way, and obviously not in a way of responding to something that's so emotional for so many.

Speaker 24 I mean, I, to me,

Speaker 30 look, we've said for a long time that one of the greatest gifts President Trump gave the Republican Party was a road map on how to fight.

Speaker 96 To me, more than anything, that would be Trump's lasting legacy.

Speaker 13 He showed Republicans how to fight.

Speaker 26 And what Brendan Carr did last week was telegraph to the affiliates how to fight, that they have a permission slip to fight.

Speaker 4 They actually do have a responsibility to fight. And they did.

Speaker 14 So to me, it wasn't government interference and actually stopping any program from airing.

Speaker 16 It was him saying to these affiliates, you're empowered.

Speaker 185 I don't have to do this.

Speaker 23 You actually will not get hassled by me if you exercise the independent judgment you have and that you haven't been exercising in decades.

Speaker 64 You answer to your constituents. Do it.

Speaker 88 Go ahead.

Speaker 3 Follow your conscience.

Speaker 97 And they did.

Speaker 89 They did it last week and they did it again, even now under what's presumably some pressure from Disney not to.

Speaker 29 And Nexstar waited a whole day before they made that announcement.

Speaker 14 So presumably it's been thought through. There's more to discuss on this, like what should we expect from Kimmel tonight.

Speaker 49 We'll pick it up after this break.

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Speaker 61 To cower, to hide, to go silent is not the answer.

Speaker 122 And all I can tell you is there is no fucking way I am canceling one stop on this tour.

Speaker 9 Not one stop.

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Speaker 178 We're going to make it safe for my team and my guests and you.

Speaker 50 We're going coast to coast and do something really important, which is say what's true and what's real to honor him.

Speaker 19 I really now more than ever would love to see you all face to face.

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Speaker 61 Mark Halperin is with me.

Speaker 9 He is the host of Next Up with Mark Halperin.

Speaker 57 Go subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, YouTube.

Speaker 88 You can find all the links at nextuphalperin.com and that'll get you all Mark all the time.

Speaker 17 And I want to tell you that Mark will join me on the Megan Kelly live tour.

Speaker 62 He is with me in Fort Worth.

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Speaker 20 We're coming to you on October 25th.

Speaker 9 Go get tickets now at megankelly.com.

Speaker 68 MeganKelly.com for all of our 10 days, although some of them are already sold out or about to sell out.

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Speaker 24 Okay, MeganKelly.com.

Speaker 40 Go now.

Speaker 33 Mark, welcome back.

Speaker 56 All right, so we were on the subject of Kimmel.

Speaker 66 So tonight, he goes back on the air.

Speaker 152 And even though I think it's called Jimmy Kimmel Live, it's not live.

Speaker 30 He pre-tapes it.

Speaker 51 And so, because at first I was thinking maybe he's going to do something like dramatic, you know, like he worked out some statement with Disney that will be somewhat conciliatory to the right.

Speaker 65 But then when he gets in front of the cameras, he'll throw it out and, you know, say MAGA and all the things.

Speaker 30 But that can't happen because it's pre-taped.

Speaker 120 That's my understanding, anyway.

Speaker 100 So what do you expect to hear from tonight from him tonight?

Speaker 20 And do you think it will include an apology?

Speaker 105 Apology or apology-like, that it will be.

Speaker 55 Wait, can you start again?

Speaker 14 We missed the top of your statement.

Speaker 132 Yeah.

Speaker 184 My guess is that if you take the part that will be either an apology or apology-like, that it will be quite thoughtful, that it will represent an acknowledgement that he was factually wrong and that what his words hurt people.

Speaker 111 But then, just as a student of Jimmy Kimmel and the Walt Disney Company, then I think he'll lay into MAGA, would be my guess.

Speaker 9 Yes, I don't think it will be an apology light.

Speaker 29 I think he's going to maintain the position that he never said the guy was MAGA, you know, that people misinterpreted, right?

Speaker 45 That I don't know if he'll use the word twisted his words, but I do think he's going to sort of say, like,

Speaker 69 I'm sorry that we didn't bring the temperature down, or we should all bring the temperature down. I predict 100%.

Speaker 13 I predict both sides is 100%.

Speaker 40 Yeah, I agree with that.

Speaker 134 But I just again, Bob Iger used to be my boss.

Speaker 166 I don't think Bob would put him back on the air unless he apologized for his words.

Speaker 171 Again, maybe he won't say, I'm sorry, but I think he might say I shouldn't have said that.

Speaker 129 And there was no evidence of what I said.

Speaker 184 That's my prediction, just because,

Speaker 145 you know, we still don't really know why Bob made the decision to pull him off the air.

Speaker 111 The statement that they belatedly put out in announcing his return said,

Speaker 145 I forget the exact characterization, but it was mildly rebuking the language.

Speaker 134 And I think they're really courting disaster if they put him back on the air and he doesn't do more than just say everybody needs to bring the temperature down.

Speaker 106 I really do think he's going to have to take some responsibility for his words.

Speaker 105 And again, maybe I'll be wrong, but I predict he will.

Speaker 59 So now,

Speaker 9 who is this a win for?

Speaker 29 Because

Speaker 14 we kind of touched on this before the break, but this is a different way of framing it.

Speaker 75 Because the left was enjoying his martyrdom.

Speaker 152 They didn't want him off the air, but they were enjoying his martyrdom.

Speaker 14 And the right, who wanted him off the air, was starting to wonder whether they should have just kept their mouths shut or Brandon Carr should have kept his mouth shut and let Disney do its thing and pull him off the air on its own.

Speaker 43 But I would suggest to you, I don't know.

Speaker 16 I mean, Disney was getting tons of calls.

Speaker 9 I know that.

Speaker 14 Like, I'm not sure exactly what Disney would have done had the affiliates not said we're not airing him, but I do think there was enough pressure to make them do it privately.

Speaker 100 Anyway, I'm not sure.

Speaker 46 So,

Speaker 39 is this a loss in some way for those who really just wanted Jimmy Kimmel to be a martyr?

Speaker 36 They were actually comparing the loss of his show to the loss of Charlie Kirk on the right.

Speaker 9 It's certainly got a lot more airtime and ink in the papers.

Speaker 87 So, there's got to be some sense of regret over there that they no longer get to use him as their martyr.

Speaker 167 Yeah. I mean, you framed it well.

Speaker 141 You know, there's

Speaker 106 winning by losing.

Speaker 187 I am more in the Ted Cruz school of the chairman.

Speaker 134 I think he's been a fascinating figure over there, and I think using the power of the FCC to create a more balance in the public airways, I think, has been good.

Speaker 105 But I'm not a fan of what he did in this case and the language he used, like Senator Cruz, like the Wall Street Journal editorial board.

Speaker 145 I think it is, whether it is a long-term win for one side or the other, I think will depend to a large extent on how his return then plays out.

Speaker 172 Does the the show survive?

Speaker 109 And what are the lessons that people draw from it?

Speaker 197 And that's two categories.

Speaker 205 One is who raises more money off of it?

Speaker 106 Who builds more enthusiasm in our politics and for the midterms?

Speaker 187 But then, what do real people think about it?

Speaker 151 The casual voter, the people who aren't immersed in every minute of this.

Speaker 109 How do they feel about the lessons of this?

Speaker 148 And I think it's far too soon.

Speaker 141 We'll have to see how Kimmel returns and how long he stays on the air.

Speaker 55 This is an interesting list.

Speaker 28 So, Carr was at an event yesterday and was asked about all this before we had the news that they were bringing Kimmel back.

Speaker 62 And he went into a list of what the FCC has been doing under Joe Biden and in recent years.

Speaker 21 And I'm just going to tick off a couple of things he said.

Speaker 27 In 2018, a dozen Democrat senators, including Cantwell, Markey, Blumenthal, Sanders, and Wyden, wrote the FCC and called on the agency to investigate Sinclair for a newsroom decision and to take action up to and including license revocation.

Speaker 14 So you've got a dozen Democratic senators under the Trump administration time writing the FCC and demanding them to investigate Sinclair for its editorial bent, okay, and which was conservative.

Speaker 80 I remember this.

Speaker 88 No problem.

Speaker 27 The left had no problem whatsoever with Democrats pressuring the FCC to pressure Sinclair into stopping its programming choices.

Speaker 32 During the Biden years, Democrats at the FCC took the unprecedented step of not renewing dozens of routine Sinclair license renewals.

Speaker 75 They stopped them from getting their license, which means they cannot broadcast.

Speaker 14 Okay, no problem.

Speaker 29 Democrats, all these same people preaching free speech, loved it.

Speaker 14 They were totally in support.

Speaker 60 In 2023, the FCC determined it would be in the public interest to move forward with a petition that sought to revoke a local Fox broadcast TV station's license because of content that aired on Fox News, a cable channel, which the FCC does not regulate.

Speaker 20 They don't regulate social media. They don't regulate any cable channels.

Speaker 19 They only regulate broadcast.

Speaker 50 And they determined, FCC, in 2023, under Biden, it would be in the public interest to move forward with a petition seeking to revoke a local Fox broadcast TV station's license because of content on Fox News Cable.

Speaker 118 In 2021, Democrats in Congress launched a campaign to pressure cable companies to drop Fox, to drop Newsmax, to drop OAN on the grounds that they were, quote, right-wing.

Speaker 50 That's Democrats in Congress trying to pressure cable companies to drop Fox, OAN, and Newsmax from their lineups.

Speaker 20 And it worked.

Speaker 61 Cable companies did drop some of them.

Speaker 9 Two Democratic members of Congress sent letters to DirecTV, this is my own research, and other providers questioning their carriage of channels that spread misinformation, including OAN.

Speaker 81 DirecTV dropped OAN and Newsmax in response.

Speaker 97 Democratic members of Congress sent letters to DirecTV urging them to drop OAN and Newsmax, and they did it.

Speaker 16 This is the same side now grasping its pearls about any Democratic interference in programming decisions.

Speaker 39 In 2021, Democratic lawmakers pressured the FCC to block the sale of a Spanish-language radio station in South Florida to what they viewed as a conservative buyer, arguing that doing so would matter to their odds in the 2022 midterms.

Speaker 16 The sale did not go through.

Speaker 72 This is Dems pressuring the FCC to act in a way that was beneficial to them.

Speaker 20 And indeed, they got their way.

Speaker 14 During the Biden years, Democrats inside the administration engaged in a multi-month campaign to pressure social media companies into censoring political speech.

Speaker 16 In too many cases, it worked.

Speaker 32 We all know that's true.

Speaker 14 And in 2021, a Democrat prosecutor in Baltimore filed a formal complaint asking the FCC to censor a broadcast TV station's newsroom for their coverage of her allegedly unlawful conduct.

Speaker 46 This is all Democrats exerting government influence to get programming the way they want it, either through the FCC or directly on cable companies or other broadcasters.

Speaker 60 They have zero problem with involving the government in censoring speech, including the FCC.

Speaker 117 The only thing that changed here under Brendan Carr was he

Speaker 45 actually tried to use it for Republicans.

Speaker 46 And without actually doing anything, just with his words saying we can do this the hard way or we can do this the easy way, but there is a public interest requirement for affiliates airing this this content.

Speaker 204 That's all he did in response to that entire nightmare of lists I just went through.

Speaker 29 There is no equivalence between the left and the right on this issue, which is why I remain in the place of good for Brendan Carr.

Speaker 61 I'm 110% on his side.

Speaker 197 Well, he's done other stuff.

Speaker 106 And again, I'm generally against the government or whatever party of doing it.

Speaker 137 But here's the question.

Speaker 82 Of course, we both are.

Speaker 60 The question is tactics in putting a stop to it.

Speaker 106 But here's the asymmetry that I think matters to a ton of people.

Speaker 139 And I hear this on Tu-Way all the time.

Speaker 195 Both sides are hypocrites.

Speaker 160 Both sides want to use the government for their own ideology.

Speaker 161 The difference is the so-called balanced, fair media is completely one-sided.

Speaker 148 And so you look at the coverage of two of our favorite media reporters, Brian Stelter and Oliver Darcy.

Speaker 137 Their coverage of that litany of democratic moves that you read is go, you go.

Speaker 146 Great.

Speaker 187 Get those evil Sinclair people off the air. Take away their licenses.

Speaker 190 Their coverage of what Carr has done is the exact opposite. It's, oh my goodness, the specter of big government.

Speaker 105 So the problem for so many people, and it's ironic because, of course, it involves media reporters who are supposed to be the fairest reporters, the irony is, and the unfairness, and the imbalance is when the left does it, it's cheered on by the so-called objective media.

Speaker 134 When the right does it, it's seen as villainous.

Speaker 141 And that imbalance matters because that's part of what shapes the public dialogue about these similar things that are done with different purposes and get different coverage.

Speaker 13 To me, it's just like the law fair.

Speaker 44 They won't stop unless we give them a taste of their own medicine.

Speaker 118 Taking the high road has not worked.

Speaker 9 It hasn't stopped them and it won't stop them.

Speaker 14 I'm sorry, but they need to suffer the consequences of their own behavior in order for them to stop it.

Speaker 60 It's a matter of tactics.

Speaker 14 And that's why I don't want to indict anybody who hasn't committed a crime, but but I'm perfectly fine kicking the tires of Letitia James's mortgage practices, Adam Schiff's as well, Lisa Cook's as well.

Speaker 13 Totally in favor of it.

Speaker 18 By the way, there's a news report that Comey is about to get charged.

Speaker 36 We'll see whether that's true for his role in the whole Russia gate, et cetera.

Speaker 68 So we'll see.

Speaker 43 But this is a similar thing.

Speaker 185 What I don't think Kimmel

Speaker 9 necessarily would have been pulled off the air had Brendan Carr not rattled the cage a bit.

Speaker 89 And they needed to feel that.

Speaker 185 Like, so now great, we have them all on record that they're in favor of free speech and they don't want government interference.

Speaker 22 Great.

Speaker 61 That's a win.

Speaker 152 We've got that now in our pocket.

Speaker 59 And that's something.

Speaker 45 It's something more than we had five days ago to go into the next administration or the one after that.

Speaker 14 One of them eventually is going to be Democrat.

Speaker 146 I'll say some of the smartest and most principled people I know, including some former Democrats, agree wholeheartedly with you that this is the only solution to root out decades of injustice.

Speaker 154 And

Speaker 145 I hear the point of view from very smart, principled people.

Speaker 145 I worry about what it means to the country because then the cycle doesn't end, but I get it and I see it manifested every day.

Speaker 55 I think the cycle does end. That's why you're not in favor of the tactic because you think the cycle won't end.

Speaker 43 I think the cycle will end and the only way to end it is by making them suffer.

Speaker 134 Yeah, I just,

Speaker 111 I would prefer that they pay a price and that they get their comeuppance through different tactics in some cases.

Speaker 106 But like I said, I hear what you're saying all the time.

Speaker 198 I just,

Speaker 109 the only way the cycle ends is if people start to play by rules that are equal, and that includes the press.

Speaker 106 And unfortunately, I just don't think this is going to have that effect.

Speaker 62 Well, we'll see.

Speaker 14 I think this is a Republican win.

Speaker 34 I really do. I applaud Nexstar.
I applaud Sinclair.

Speaker 71 They've got stones.

Speaker 96 It's great what they're doing.

Speaker 95 And

Speaker 14 I just don't remember ever seeing Republicans stand up like this in this way before.

Speaker 97 Here, on the other hand, is your friend Joe Scarborough with the most inane, empty, absurd warning that I think I've ever heard from a leftist.

Speaker 31 Here it is, SOT22.

Speaker 211 Well, and what Republicans did, what some Republicans did seem to understand, Ted Cruz certainly understood it, that yes, right now this is being used against speech that Republicans don't like.

Speaker 211 But Willie, Republicans aren't going to be in the White House forever.

Speaker 211 So they understood.

Speaker 211 ted cruise warned about it others warned about it what we're doing to them right now they will do to us when a democrat this is short-sighted it makes no sense

Speaker 15 oh my god

Speaker 14 acting like the world began last wednesday i mean that's truly

Speaker 81 just a blatant excuse me failure to acknowledge how we got here

Speaker 128 well i know because joe's my friend i've talked to him he knows how we got here i i wish he i wish he'd give him the history but he he knows how we got here and and he he like so many others uh again is so guided by his view of trump that it just it just divides the country

Speaker 126 there's a there's a there's a limit of what some people can and will say when they're guided by trump and their feelings about the president and what he's done

Speaker 38 you've got one of the more reasonable democrats uh in quotes reasonable democrats david axelrod um of course a former Obama guy, who sees the Jimmy Kimmel saga very differently than I do.

Speaker 84 I'll say that for the record.

Speaker 14 Here's what he is saying.

Speaker 38 This was CNN last night, SAC 23.

Speaker 202 Good for Jimmy Kimmel.

Speaker 150 He kept his silence and he kept his principles.

Speaker 212 And he said, I'm not going to homogenize my words.

Speaker 212 I think what he said, he probably could have said better. I don't think he lied or meant to imply

Speaker 212 what the detractors said

Speaker 49 okay

Speaker 14 kept his principles by not apologizing for a clear lie mark

Speaker 106 yeah again david axerod has trump derangement syndrome and and

Speaker 170 he may be proven wrong if i'm if my prediction's right and kimmel does apologize tonight but um again

Speaker 128 uh

Speaker 181 they they they have spent pre-assassination of charlie they spent a decade as apologists for anyone who did something negative to Donald Trump.

Speaker 145 That's just their orientation.

Speaker 187 That's their reflex.

Speaker 210 The fact that they didn't drop the reflex after a young man was assassinated is testament to the strength of Trump derangement syndrome, and their orientation remains the same.

Speaker 108 If Trump's for it, they're against it.

Speaker 125 If Trump likes someone, that person must be a bad person.

Speaker 109 If someone goes on TV and lies on behalf of Donald Trump, I mean,

Speaker 129 this is a group of people who continue to say that Donald Trump said there were good people on both sides referring to white supremacists.

Speaker 148 It's a group of people who continue to say Jim Crow on steroids.

Speaker 163 It's a group of people who continue to believe anything that General Kelly would say about Donald Trump.

Speaker 142 So I had hoped for about 20 minutes that their spell would be broken by the assassination of a 31-year-old man with a pure heart.

Speaker 137 But no, it's the same orientation.

Speaker 140 So I get the outrage about it and the new examples are interesting from a human point of view, but it's the same old story.

Speaker 151 We were a decade into it.

Speaker 104 It's the same old story.

Speaker 125 If someone attacks Donald Trump, regardless of whether they do it truthfully or not, they're a hero to the left.

Speaker 65 Well, you're so right because this is all, this scandal doesn't stand independently.

Speaker 14 It's actually linked to Charlie Kirk's assassination because that's what Kimmel was commenting on. That's one of the reasons why tempers were so flared.

Speaker 29 And he tried to blame this murder on MAGA, which was what was so incendiary and deeply wrong and immoral about his comments.

Speaker 83 But it was also bigger because the left wanted to use it to pivot away from Charlie's assassination and gallingly to try to make themselves look like the bigger victims of events of the past couple of weeks versus the right half of the country and Charlie's fans and friends.

Speaker 145 I totally agree.

Speaker 138 And to me, the biggest example so far was that Charlie's name was not uttered at the Emmys.

Speaker 106 I just, I just, I still can't believe it. I still cannot believe that they did not honor him at the Emmys.

Speaker 137 It's just

Speaker 210 staggering to me.

Speaker 106 And that's of a piece with what you showed David Axelrod saying, it's of a piece with ABC not firing Kimmel

Speaker 144 and ABC bringing him back because they just don't have appreciation for what this means.

Speaker 139 They just don't.

Speaker 14 No, they don't understand and they don't want to understand the right half of the country, which is the majority.

Speaker 39 You know, check the polls.

Speaker 9 They don't want to understand.

Speaker 43 Again, that's why it's better to have affiliates and their ownership groups making these decisions because they actually do have a better understanding of so-called flyover country and what the standards of decency are, what

Speaker 13 this public interest actually looks like.

Speaker 55 Here is this TikToker.

Speaker 84 His name is Isaiah L.

Speaker 29 Carter, and he gets it just about as right as anybody I've heard.

Speaker 118 It's SOT 28.

Speaker 176 You think because you yell

Speaker 176 pretty fucking loud about some late-night talk show host, you think that's supposed to

Speaker 176 affect, you think that's supposed to win hearts and minds?

Speaker 176 After we saw you,

Speaker 176 after we saw what you celebrated the shedding of innocent blood,

Speaker 176 and now you want to pretend like nobody, now you want to pretend like nobody sees you. God sees you.
You have literally operated at the privilege of the state.

Speaker 176 You have operated with with the with you have operated with the impunity

Speaker 176 that being on the side of all of the institutions

Speaker 176 and being on the side of the state gets you.

Speaker 176 You have enjoyed that privilege, and now that privilege is gone. And you're losing, you lost the culture war.
There's a body involved now.

Speaker 176 You don't get to act sanctimonious.

Speaker 176 Y'all don't get to act sanctimonious anymore. You've got a 31-year-old man killed.

Speaker 21 All right, here's what I love about that.

Speaker 34 everything.

Speaker 40 But also,

Speaker 91 Isaiah and others like him who are, you know, maybe recent Charlie fans, really coming to like the wisdom of Charlie Kirk by watching the videos and so on, are now experiencing what it's like to be a conservative, right?

Speaker 93 Like, even your wins are short-lived and

Speaker 29 will be completely misrepresented by the media.

Speaker 68 You know, Jimmy Kimmel's going to get a hero's welcome tonight.

Speaker 62 All the media will celebrate whatever he says.

Speaker 89 And

Speaker 9 the left will turn this around like, oh my God, it's part of Trump's authoritarianism.

Speaker 68 And I do think these new converts to conservatism, to Charlie Kirkism, whatever it is that's happening right now, it's good that they're getting a dose of what it's like to be one of us.

Speaker 32 Because even to have a minor victory, for us, is like a big W.

Speaker 81 But it too will be shat upon.

Speaker 13 It will be minimized.

Speaker 60 It will be reduced to a nub because that's what the left wants.

Speaker 29 And the left controls media and Hollywood and all the institutions that are going to drive narrative around this.

Speaker 40 Well,

Speaker 125 again, it's a tragedy that this is what it would take for some number of people to see the light, but that's what's happening.

Speaker 141 It's a testament to the Democratic Party's determination.

Speaker 163 to maintain the exact orientation they had before Charlie was killed and the media's desire to not not learn anything.

Speaker 210 The media continues to not own up to the attempted cover-up of Joe Biden's cognitive decline.

Speaker 111 And on Next Up, we hear from a woman from the Chicago area who draws a through line between those two events.

Speaker 132 No consciousness raising, no acknowledgement of professional misconduct after the Biden acuity cover-up was exposed for the world to see in the sharpest relief possible with the debate.

Speaker 159 And now, no acknowledgement that the nature of how people like Charlie Kirk,

Speaker 145 and there's no one really who was like him, but conservatives who worked to elect Donald Trump, their treatment by the press continues with barely a pause, even though he was assassinated, because they do not want their consciousness raised.

Speaker 130 But because of TikTok, because of Instagram, because of

Speaker 137 YouTube, more people will see the truth and have a place to go to hear their instincts validated.

Speaker 111 I don't know what the numbers will be, but it ain't nothing.

Speaker 139 It is some number of people because of the horror of what happened and the reaction just playing right back to type.

Speaker 126 There are problems on the right,

Speaker 106 and I get why some people on the left say this is not the time to change.

Speaker 104 We're still at battle stations.

Speaker 40 But for so many, this is just a watershed moment and a moment in which the asymmetry in the press coverage is just, it's too much for some people to bear.

Speaker 43 I do want to show this.

Speaker 14 I wasn't sure where I'd bring it up, but this is a good place because

Speaker 9 speaking of learning to fight and the right understanding, like the stakes are extremely high, and we're just, we're just not going to allow it.

Speaker 39 We're just not going to allow the bastardization of Charlie's memory.

Speaker 32 We are not going to allow this thing to be blamed on MAGA when we know who shot Charlie Kirk and what the motives were.

Speaker 29 I mean, we know the uniform public statements that have been made, at least by the authorities in charge and his family.

Speaker 39 Last night, Michael Knowles spoke for Charlie in Minnesota at one of these campus events, which was great.

Speaker 6 Yours truly will be doing it tomorrow night in Virginia. And Charlie and I were supposed to do that together.

Speaker 71 And I'm still going.

Speaker 30 So Michael Knowles shows up.

Speaker 14 And I think Michael, he was on the show yesterday, you know, didn't know exactly what to expect, but was determined to go.

Speaker 102 He's been very brave.

Speaker 49 I mean, his whole adult life.

Speaker 14 He's incredibly courageous in his commentary, etc.

Speaker 66 So he shows up, and outside of the event, you have the Trantifa types who are

Speaker 39 transed up and trying to chant terrible slogans about Charlie, etc.

Speaker 6 And you know what happened, Mark?

Speaker 41 Let's look at it.

Speaker 101 A bunch of counter-protesters showed up.

Speaker 84 Yes.

Speaker 18 A bunch of regular folks, frat boys,

Speaker 30 men, women, etc., showed up and chanted USA, USA, USA over the protesters.

Speaker 32 They were not having it.

Speaker 28 And then, on the inside of the event,

Speaker 62 here is what happened:

Speaker 62 Charlie, Charlie, Charlie, Charlie.

Speaker 36 It was packed to the rafters with people. Charlie, Charlie, Charlie, Charlie, Charlie, Charlie, Charlie.

Speaker 6 I mean, I don't know how many people were there, but

Speaker 14 it was standing room only.

Speaker 92 They showed up in droves to listen to Michael chanting Charlie's name.

Speaker 57 They've just, they've had it, Mark.

Speaker 106 Yeah.

Speaker 147 One of the sentiments most often expressed on Sunday in Arizona was that in his death, Charlie's movement will grow even larger and more powerful.

Speaker 106 And I understand the passion that people say that with, and it might be true,

Speaker 129 but I'm not sure.

Speaker 164 Because ironically, and again, paradoxically, replacing him is going to be a challenge.

Speaker 125 As talented as Erica is and other people are, he's singular.

Speaker 106 But here are two things that I think will definitely be true, and you saw that with Michael yesterday.

Speaker 171 One is the number of people dedicated to changing campuses, right?

Speaker 188 The ability of conservatives to be on campuses, the number of those people will grow.

Speaker 187 And their comfort with going out in public and fighting for that principle will be much higher.

Speaker 125 People will be more comfortable, more protected, greater strength in numbers.

Speaker 125 And I think you're going to see on many college campuses, including some liberal campuses, you're going to see a real change that will apply not just to whatever was included in Charlie's agenda, but more broadly, I believe that his death, one of the monuments to his death, will be

Speaker 159 many campuses now will be more balanced in the public square rhetoric because of the dynamic that you saw in that video from last night with Michael Knowles.

Speaker 92 It's great. It's very heartening.

Speaker 14 I love to see it.

Speaker 6 I mean, it's just they're leaning in. They don't care who knows it.

Speaker 76 They're proud patriots.

Speaker 14 They love this country.

Speaker 20 Many of them are

Speaker 6 faithful people, and they've found a new way of talking about both.

Speaker 52 That's Charlie's legacy.

Speaker 161 And the best liberals like Bernie Sanders and Rochana are welcoming this.

Speaker 106 They're welcoming university campuses having more pluralistic situation.

Speaker 172 I wish other Democrats would follow their example.

Speaker 190 And that's not lip service.

Speaker 172 It's not saying it in the heat in the moment in the aftermath of the assassination.

Speaker 142 There are some Democrats who say, thank goodness now that one of the enduring legacies will be more pluralistic thought on campuses.

Speaker 105 And like I said, I hope all of the Democrats follow that because that could be some good that comes out of this.

Speaker 14 Now, normally I would take a break at this point, and then we would start the Kamala Harris discussion later.

Speaker 121 But her sound bites are so rambling and difficult to comprehend.

Speaker 18 I think we need to break it up.

Speaker 14 Otherwise, people are going to be upset.

Speaker 40 And it's because

Speaker 167 I'm hungry.

Speaker 106 I could use some salad.

Speaker 21 I've got it for you right here.

Speaker 73 Okay.

Speaker 69 That's where I wanted to start, actually.

Speaker 32 She was on Maddow last night promoting her book.

Speaker 48 Maddow raised with her the statement in the book that she wanted to raise with Joe Biden the fact that he was not the right candidate for this job, but she couldn't really because she was the VP and it would have been seen as self-serving.

Speaker 13 But in retrospect, it was really recklessness to allow him to make the decision.

Speaker 18 It shouldn't have been a personal call.

Speaker 14 Matt I was trying to say, okay, so this is why you didn't actually raise this with him, but you would have liked to.

Speaker 92 And here is how that answer went.

Speaker 74 Sat 10.

Speaker 213 You said to President Biden that you did not think he should run again.

Speaker 123 Yeah, or even that he should question whether it's a good idea.

Speaker 123 But I think that, you know,

Speaker 123 one of the reasons I wrote this book, Rachel, is there are actually a number of reasons. One is one, that it is unprecedented, right, to your point of what you said in your opening.

Speaker 123 We had a president of the United States running for re-election three and a half months from the election, decides not to run.

Speaker 6 The sitting vice president

Speaker 123 enters the race against a former president of the United States who's been running for 10 years with 107 days to go.

Speaker 123 And it ended up being the worst presidential election in the 21st century.

Speaker 123 And there was so much about those 107 days that

Speaker 123 for me, and this is really a behind-the-scenes look at those 107 days, was about seeing people who seemingly had nothing in common coming together by the thousands of people.

Speaker 33 Oh my God.

Speaker 123 With

Speaker 123 a level of optimism and dare I say joy.

Speaker 121 Oh my lord.

Speaker 123 The possibilities for America.

Speaker 123 And I hope to remind people about

Speaker 123 that light that people brought to it and to remind people that that light is still there.

Speaker 185 The light.

Speaker 123 And we can't let that be extinguished by an election or the individual who's in the office right now.

Speaker 60 She still got it.

Speaker 77 Still got it. No one's better at the word salad.

Speaker 187 Please, I would like a light vinaigrette.

Speaker 197 You know,

Speaker 111 I've watched the interviews knowing I was coming on to talk to you, and it wasn't difficult difficult for me to anticipate which sound bites you would pick.

Speaker 106 And her failure to stand up to the parts of the book that actually were honest or provocative and to just go with, as you said, just a bunch of fillers.

Speaker 106 It's like whatever the opposite of book selling 101 is, that's what this is.

Speaker 137 She's like,

Speaker 106 she's not even trying to sell the book anymore.

Speaker 188 She's trying to go back to, as if she was just a candidate and just run out the clock with words.

Speaker 112 Yes.

Speaker 29 That's so well said. That's a great point.
Because it's like what Maddow was asking her was about a point that Rachel had read in the book, the one I just reiterated.

Speaker 61 Like, you know, gee, we shouldn't have let it be a personal decision.

Speaker 43 The stakes were too high.

Speaker 29 It was reckless. And she's saying, you know, you wish you had said that to President Biden.

Speaker 9 And Kamala Harris goes off on how it was an unprecedented time.

Speaker 29 We only had three months.

Speaker 201 Dare I say joy.

Speaker 81 Need to remind people of the light.

Speaker 46 It was light.

Speaker 32 Colonel Ann.

Speaker 112 Go turn the light.

Speaker 186 Here's my sandbite. It's as if it wasn't a book that she had to get, she tried to get published.

Speaker 203 It's as if it were her private journal that has leaked out and she's trying to change the subject.

Speaker 181 Oh, no, they know what I wrote.

Speaker 189 No, she purposely published the words, and now she's pretending like it didn't happen.

Speaker 137 It is a weird way to sell a book.

Speaker 39 Okay, on that same front, Maddow, who is openly gay, asked her about her comments in the book about why she didn't choose Pete Budigej as her running mate, in which the book, you know, she says, because he's gay and the country, in her view, isn't ready for somebody like her to be running with somebody like him.

Speaker 41 And here's how that went:

Speaker 213 you know, you're the first woman elected vice president. You're a black woman and a South Asian woman elected to that high office, very nearly elected president.

Speaker 213 To say that he couldn't be on the ticket effectively because he was gay is hard to hear.

Speaker 123 No, no, no, that's not what I said. That

Speaker 176 he couldn't be on the ghost

Speaker 123 because he is gay. Exactly.
My point, as I write in the book, is

Speaker 66 that

Speaker 123 I was clear that in 107 days, in one of the most

Speaker 123 hotly contested elections for President of the United States, against

Speaker 123 someone like Donald Trump, who knows no floor,

Speaker 123 to be a black woman running for President of the United States and as a vice presidential running mate, a gay man,

Speaker 123 with the stakes being so high,

Speaker 123 it made me very sad, but I also realized it would be a real risk.

Speaker 52 So, I didn't say that, except I said that exactly.

Speaker 157 Right.

Speaker 186 Yeah. I mean, I don't know how much of it's been the blowback from the stuff leaking out.

Speaker 187 I'll also say, again, it was a weird decision to put all the stuff out to be attacked.

Speaker 106 Maybe they thought that would sell books, but then it's just confusing to like a potential book buyer.

Speaker 40 And it certainly doesn't make Pete Boutige, I think, feel any better to go out and not actually say, Yeah, you're not saying what you put in the book.

Speaker 8 It just,

Speaker 171 it's of a piece with the kind of communication strategy and image maintenance she demonstrated as a vice president and as a presidential candidate.

Speaker 7 Like, how did she not know that was going to come up?

Speaker 116 Maddow is a lesbian.

Speaker 29 Obviously, this is going to be on the nose.

Speaker 43 She's going to raise it. And there's, no,

Speaker 14 I didn't say that.

Speaker 43 Not because he's gay.

Speaker 78 I was clear. That's always a tell with her.

Speaker 20 She's about to do one of her non-clear answers.

Speaker 13 I was clear.

Speaker 60 It's Donald Trump's fault.

Speaker 32 Donald Trump knows no floor.

Speaker 57 That's the problem.

Speaker 201 Black, gay man, uh-uh, stakes too high.

Speaker 43 So I was sad about it, Rachel.

Speaker 50 I was sad.

Speaker 47 So now you mentioned my favorite piece of the whole story, which is she took out her howitzer, she pointed at Josh Shapiro, she pointed at Pete Buttigieg, she pointed at Team Biden, and they are all annihilating her in response.

Speaker 50 Here's Budajej in SAT 16.

Speaker 214 I was surprised when I read that.

Speaker 151 I just believe in giving Americans more credit than that.

Speaker 214 My experience in politics has been that the way that you earn trust with voters is based mostly on what they think you're going to do for their lives, not on categories.

Speaker 89 And then the Josh Shapiro remark, where she said, well, I was going to choose Josh Shapiro, governor of Pennsylvania, swing state, but he seemed too vain, basically, is what she was saying.

Speaker 62 He was more focused on how he was going to decorate the VP's office and what artwork he could get in there than he was in actually sharing responsibility.

Speaker 47 And now here's Shapiro fighting back.

Speaker 215 I mean, look, I haven't read the former vice president's book, and

Speaker 215 she's going to have to answer to how she was in the room and yet never said anything publicly.

Speaker 215 I can tell you that I wasn't in the room, but when I was confronted with engagement with the former president,

Speaker 215 in looking at it simply from the perspective of how's he doing in Pennsylvania? Could he win Pennsylvania?

Speaker 215 And I was very vocal with him privately and extremely vocal with his staff about my concerns about his fitness to be able to run for another term.

Speaker 215 I believe in talking directly to the individuals, not running around and talking to the media.

Speaker 39 Okay, so that's two, Mark.

Speaker 184 Yeah.

Speaker 167 You know, the irony of this part is the stuff she reported about Shapiro matches my reporting exactly, which was she wanted to pick him and I think led his team to believe he was going to be picked.

Speaker 129 But he was super demanding.

Speaker 108 And his view was, I'm not going to accept a life-changing job with someone I don't know that well without more answers.

Speaker 145 And her attitude was, I don't have time.

Speaker 162 So that part's all correct.

Speaker 130 But I love the fact that he comes back at her, not on the points she raised, but he comes back on her and says, you have to explain why you didn't point out that Joe Biden had cognitive decline and couldn't be president.

Speaker 104 So The people who haven't come back in full force yet are the Bidens.

Speaker 144 And there's stuff in the book that hasn't come up in the interviews so far, negative things she says about the Bidens that I think Hunter or somebody else will come back at her.

Speaker 128 And

Speaker 62 what we did hear was

Speaker 62 we heard from Biden aides to Axios the following.

Speaker 14 Vice President Harris was simply not good at the job.

Speaker 72 She had basically zero substantive role in any of the administration's key work streams and instead would just dive-bomb in for stilted photo ops that exposed how out of depth she was.

Speaker 82 This is what we've been waiting for. We deserve this news cycle.
We've been waiting for this since November.

Speaker 189 It's coming on camera, and part of their indignation is they did more to try to help her than any vice president has ever been helped.

Speaker 106 They went out of their way to get her meetings and briefings and to protect her public image.

Speaker 167 And again, it hasn't come up now, although it leaked out early.

Speaker 189 She claims, oh, they undermined me.

Speaker 125 They didn't try to protect me when I was attacked. They didn't defend me.

Speaker 173 Instead, under orders from her boss, the president, they spent an unprecedented amount of time trying to avoid her being treated negatively, but it didn't stick because she was not able to do certain parts of the job.

Speaker 98 Because she was genuinely terrible.

Speaker 14 All right, now she's also trying to be a tough guy around Trump.

Speaker 90 That's another piece of her narrative that we will pick up on the opposite side of this break.

Speaker 14 More with Mark Halperin, host of Next Up with Mark Halperin, right after this.

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Speaker 14 If you are stressed about back taxes, maybe you missed that April deadline or your books are a mess, don't wait.

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Speaker 20 We absolutely have to keep talking.

Speaker 208 It's more important now than ever.

Speaker 218 This fall, Megan Kelly is taking her show live to cities nationwide.

Speaker 61 To go silent is not the answer.

Speaker 112 I'm going.

Speaker 178 I'm going to stand on these stages and I'm going to say all the things that we say all the time on this show. We're going to make it safe for me.

Speaker 178 We're going to make it safe for my team and my guests and you.

Speaker 85 And do something really important, which is say what's true and what's real.

Speaker 102 And I would love for you to join me at MeganKelly.com for the tickets.

Speaker 44 You can stream the Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are.

Speaker 2 No car required. I do it all the time.
I love the SiriusXM app. It has ad-free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast, and more.

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Speaker 218 Go to SiriusXM.com/slash MK Show to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com/slash MK Show and get three months free.
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Speaker 13 With me today, Mark Halperin.

Speaker 48 He's the host of Next Up with Mark Halperin on the MK Media Podcast Network.

Speaker 16 All you have to do is go to your little podcast app on your phone, type in Mark Halperin or Next Up, and you will see it.

Speaker 84 And then hit subscribe or follow.

Speaker 30 YouTube, do the same.

Speaker 73 Mark,

Speaker 45 this just hit this morning.

Speaker 97 Google is now vowing to offer YouTube accounts that were permanently banned for political speech during the Biden administration and COVID the ability to be reinstated.

Speaker 39 Fox News breaking this this morning from the Fox article.

Speaker 18 Google detained its remarkable shift in a document first obtained by Fox News Digital that a lawyer for the company provided to the House Judiciary Committee.

Speaker 65 The new policy from Google, also known by its parent company, Alphabet, could affect both average users and well-known figures like FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino, White House counterterrorism chief Sebastian Gorka, and War Room podcast host Steve Bannon, all of whom were permanently banned in recent years for COVID-19 or election-related content.

Speaker 46 That's just three who got banned.

Speaker 84 We could be here all day if we went through the list, okay?

Speaker 48 That's what conservatives have been subjected to over the past seven plus years.

Speaker 63 And Britt Hume is online, your former boss and mine, saying, quote, meanwhile, CNN's Jake Tapper is on late night TV.

Speaker 79 He was on Seth Meyers last night, saying the temporary suspension of Jimmy Kimmel is, quote, the most direct infringement by the government on free speech he's ever seen.

Speaker 60 We know that YouTube and Google did that because the government was insisting that they crack down on these fringe voices all over YouTube.

Speaker 61 This is absurd, the turnaround in this narrative over Kimmel to having five days off.

Speaker 109 One of the 23 books I currently want to to write is the history of the tech platforms coinciding with the rise of Donald Trump,

Speaker 149 colluding with the Biden administration and the media, particularly the media reporters, the ones who cover the media,

Speaker 40 to

Speaker 130 censor conservative thought, to shut down accounts, to suppress information.

Speaker 109 The Hunter Biden laptop is the most prominent.

Speaker 151 But this is an incredible story that these platforms, which claim to be wide open and available to anyone and not content concerned, but rather just concerned with creating the distribution.

Speaker 131 They actively and ideologically conspired to suppress conservative thought, diversity of thought.

Speaker 134 And it's one thing if they say, well, this is a Nazi or this is someone with dangerous thoughts.

Speaker 205 But these were just people espousing different points of view that happened to be conservative or belonged to conservatives.

Speaker 105 And it's an incredible story about American history that's never been written.

Speaker 203 And I would love to write it.

Speaker 104 It would take a lot of reporting, but I'd love to do it.

Speaker 147 And of course, as you suggest now,

Speaker 108 when there are things like Kimmel, and it's about speech against Donald Trump as opposed to speech against the Democrats or for Donald Trump, people in the media who claim to be objective just have a totally different point of view about it.

Speaker 186 I don't know if they even understand how hypocritical that looks.

Speaker 33 It's unbelievable. I mean,

Speaker 62 what a news item to hit as the left is crying in its soup over the five-day.

Speaker 116 And by the way, you know, that news about, I don't know when Seth Myers tapes his show, but that news about Jimmy Kimmel happened relatively early in the day.

Speaker 42 He probably knew.

Speaker 33 I haven't watched the whole thing.

Speaker 32 I haven't watched any of it.

Speaker 37 I have to get back to Kamala because she went on the view this morning, and it's amazing.

Speaker 178 It's amazing.

Speaker 28 You know, like leftists are going to leftist.

Speaker 30 Here is SOT 52.

Speaker 38 A lot of people.

Speaker 219 I'm included, and President Biden also, think that a lot of it is about racism and sexism. And those are the reasons that you really lost, not because of the time thing.

Speaker 3 What do you you say to that?

Speaker 219 Do you think this country will ever elect a woman to president? In my lifetime, probably not.

Speaker 123 I beg to differ. I believe that we will.

Speaker 123 And listen, you know this, and I've been honored to be on this show many times and talk with this esteemed group.

Speaker 123 Every office I've held, I've been the first.

Speaker 123 Oh, God. Usually the first woman, and then often the first woman and the first person of color.

Speaker 123 The only time actually I was the second when I was the second black woman ever elected to the United States Senate in its hundreds of years' history.

Speaker 123 So

Speaker 123 I'm not naive.

Speaker 123 Race and gender

Speaker 82 do

Speaker 123 play a factor in some people's minds about how they vote.

Speaker 75 Back to me.

Speaker 18 If we could just bring it back to me, I was the first here and the first there.

Speaker 9 I was the second there, but I was the third, then I was the first, and then I almost became the first this, but I was like,

Speaker 60 this is how leftists think.

Speaker 26 It's like,

Speaker 50 I would be humiliated.

Speaker 76 I really would.

Speaker 55 If I were Colin Harris, I'd be like, look, there was a time in this country when that was at the forefront of people's minds.

Speaker 38 We're past that time.

Speaker 48 Look at my stellar resume.

Speaker 14 Thanks to this great country.

Speaker 50 I've achieved all.

Speaker 98 No, she can't do it.

Speaker 75 I was first, and it's second, then I was first again.

Speaker 43 Then I will, like, this is how they think.

Speaker 40 Well.

Speaker 134 So, Joyce, the premise of Joyce's question was: it wasn't that you only had 107 days.

Speaker 108 It's It's racism and sexism.

Speaker 145 And I would say what I've said from the beginning, the minute we learned the book title, if you didn't think you could win in 107 days, you shouldn't have run.

Speaker 106 There were other people who would have run, who would be happy to take on the responsibility and the challenge of doing that.

Speaker 184 If you're not someone who is good at making difficult decisions under pressure, you also shouldn't run.

Speaker 164 Those were the reasons she lost.

Speaker 149 She's never been good at making difficult decisions under pressure, and and she wasn't able to run a campaign in 107 days.

Speaker 129 The other things raised, the fact that it was too short a period of time, and race and gender, I have no doubt

Speaker 104 they were not absent from the consideration, but her friend Barack Obama got elected president with the middle name Hussein as a black man.

Speaker 190 So, I mean, it's not impossible to get elected president as a black person.

Speaker 167 Now,

Speaker 46 not for nothing, she was elected vice president with all those same characteristics.

Speaker 40 Yeah.

Speaker 156 Yeah.

Speaker 167 And again,

Speaker 210 there is sexism, but if you think there's too much sexism to win and you think 170 days is too short, don't tell your party, put me in coach.

Speaker 124 Let someone else do it.

Speaker 93 Exactly right.

Speaker 43 Well, the reason she couldn't do that is because the threat was too big.

Speaker 9 You know, she just, she understood she had...

Speaker 29 She had to rise to the occasion because the threat was too big.

Speaker 84 Here she is back on Matt Out talking about the evil Trump, Saad 8.

Speaker 123 And right now we are dealing with, as I called him at my speech on the ellipse, a tyrant.

Speaker 123 We used to compare the strength of our democracy to

Speaker 123 communist dictators. That's what we're dealing with right now, Donald Trump.

Speaker 92 And

Speaker 123 titans of industry are not speaking up.

Speaker 123 And perhaps it is because his threats and the way he has used the weight of the federal government to take out vengeance on his critics is something that they fear. And I get that.

Speaker 123 I understand why they do. We've seen the demonstration of it.

Speaker 40 Okay.

Speaker 23 Communist dictator.

Speaker 9 I guess we're not lightening up on the rhetoric at all.

Speaker 172 Same program in which she endorsed Mondami for mayor of New York, actual communist.

Speaker 40 Right.

Speaker 64 Good point.

Speaker 7 But you see,

Speaker 73 she's been going through a lot, Mark.

Speaker 118 You have to give her some slack, cut her some slack, because she's been going through a lot. She's been like a grieving process.

Speaker 36 Back to the view. She spoke a bit about that just a bit.
It's Sot 50.

Speaker 84 Here it is.

Speaker 123 Doug and I, my husband,

Speaker 123 it wasn't until I was writing that chapter that we had ever talked about election night.

Speaker 82 I grieved

Speaker 123 in a way that I have not since my mother died.

Speaker 123 And it was, I was, the pain was, it was not at all about losing a race.

Speaker 123 I knew what it was going to mean for the for the country. I was going to say for the family.

Speaker 123 And that's how I felt for the country. We all agree.
I knew what it was going to mean,

Speaker 123 but I knew.

Speaker 123 And

Speaker 123 all I could say over and over again is, my God, my God, my God.

Speaker 123 It was very difficult. I mean, I know everyone, many people experienced it in different ways.

Speaker 91 Okay, I have to say something.

Speaker 101 It may surprise people.

Speaker 14 I accept that statement because had she won, I would have had those exact feelings about her.

Speaker 28 I would have said, my God,

Speaker 32 my God, my God.

Speaker 77 And I would have grieved for my country.

Speaker 20 I just don't happen to believe it in her case.

Speaker 69 I think she actually was grieving for herself.

Speaker 43 She just doesn't have the self-confidence to admit it.

Speaker 46 I think you could go out there and say, like, Trump.

Speaker 45 He would actually be like, yeah, I was very mad.

Speaker 66 Well, he'd be like, I didn't lose.

Speaker 43 That's what he would say.

Speaker 50 But I accept that she was genuinely scared that Trump won, because I would be if she did.

Speaker 172 Well, this mythology that she and some others try to propagate that she ran a good race, she didn't.

Speaker 131 I actually think, given how close it was, if she'd run a good race, she probably would have won.

Speaker 106 So, all this grieving for the country rather than, and this is the criticism I hear most from Democrats privately, she's not taking responsibility.

Speaker 141 She's saying it's horrible Trump won, and it's horrible how the Biden people treated me, and it's horrible I only had 107 days, rather than, oops, I maybe wasn't the right person to do this.

Speaker 94 But I was the first black woman and the first Southeast Asian woman.

Speaker 14 And I was the first

Speaker 19 woman who'd had an affair with Willie Brown.

Speaker 37 And I was the first.

Speaker 34 We could be here all day.

Speaker 52 Like, this is crazy talk.

Speaker 69 I love listening to the show.

Speaker 14 I'm totally in favor of the tour, favor of Mark Halperin on Next Up as well, which you should enjoy by subscribing on YouTube and on podcast. Mark, thank you.

Speaker 145 Thank you. Great to see you.

Speaker 166 Have a great day.

Speaker 118 You too. All right.
We're back tomorrow, and this is a great one.

Speaker 13 I really hope you'll join us.

Speaker 29 It's an in-depth sit-down with actor Matthew McConaughey.

Speaker 14 Did not know what to expect, was blown away by what a thoughtful,

Speaker 16 curious, interesting, substantive person he was.

Speaker 14 I think you guys are really going to enjoy this. In fact, I guarantee you will.

Speaker 49 We'll see you then.

Speaker 13 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show: No BS, No Agenda, and no fear.

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