Former FCC Commissioner Wheeler on Trump Attacking Media

Speaker 1 If you're into wine and wildlife, this is your invitation to Adelaide, Australia. Swim with seals at sunrise, sip Shiraz at sunset, and in between, whoa, a koala.
Wait, how many wine regions? 18?

Speaker 1 Is that a wallaby or a baby kangaroo? Of course, I'd love to try wine from some of the oldest vines on the planet.

Speaker 1 Come sip and see all South Australia has to offer on United, the only airline to fly non-stop from the U.S. to Adelaide.

Speaker 3 This is Marshawn Lynch. But on Prize Picks, being right can get you paid.
So I'm here to make sure you don't miss any of the action this football season. With Prize Picks, it's good to be right.

Speaker 3 With millions of members and billions of dollars awarded and winnings, Prize Picks is the best place to put your takes to the test.

Speaker 3 The app is really simple to use and available in 40 plus states, including California, Texas, and Georgia.

Speaker 3 Just pick two or more players across any sport, pick more or less on their projections, and if you're right, you can cash in.

Speaker 3 With simple stats and fan-friendly policies, PrizePicks is the best place to make your picks. Most importantly, they don't play about your paper.

Speaker 3 All transactions on the apps are fast, safe, and secure.

Speaker 4 Download the PrizePicks app today and use code Spotify to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. That's code Spotify to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup.

Speaker 4 PrizePicks, it's good to be right. Must be present in certain states.
Visit PrizePicks.com for restrictions and details.

Speaker 6 This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

Speaker 7 Fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians.

Speaker 6 These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save.

Speaker 7 Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

Speaker 6 Potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations.

Speaker 9 Everything from clothing to household items are getting more expensive each day.

Speaker 9 The world of fast fashion has complicated clothing production by outsourcing around the world to whoever can sew them the cheapest. And now you, the consumer, are paying the price with rising costs.

Speaker 9 American Giant is about keeping things simple and close to home. They aren't affected by tariffs because their products never leave the U.S.

Speaker 9 So when you buy from American Giant, you're taking a stand for hardworking people, local communities, and quality clothes.

Speaker 9 American Giant directly supports American manufacturers and ensures you aren't footing that tariff bill. Support American-made tariff-free clothing with American Giant with American Giant.

Speaker 9 Get 20% off your first order when you use promo code staple20 at American-Giant.com. That's 20% off when you use code staple20 at American-Giant.com.

Speaker 2 Fired by the censorship song! Fired by the censorship song! Fired by the censorship

Speaker 7 Did you hear those protests during the FCC open meeting this week? The protesters were saying, fire car, the censorship czar. Fire car, the censorship jar.

Speaker 7 They're referring to the current chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, Brendan Carr, who has been someone who's been trying to rip to shreds the First Amendment and someone who's been utilizing his position at the FCC to threaten and, in my opinion, extort and go after

Speaker 7 comedians, television hosts that don't say nice things about Donald Trump or who don't do the state regime propaganda.

Speaker 7 I want to talk about what went down at that hearing where he was protested.

Speaker 7 And I want to get the expertise of someone who I think you absolutely need to hear from, the former commissioner of the Federal Communications Commission, who was appointed by former President Obama in 2013, former Commissioner Tom Wheeler, because he has an incredible perspective.

Speaker 7 And I don't think you've ever heard in detail how the FCC should really be operating from someone who was a past commissioner. But what's important to talk about, I think, are two major developments.

Speaker 7 Number one, Commissioner Carr is going to be testifying in the coming weeks before the Senate Commerce Committee. He was just subpoenaed.
And so he will have to answer questions about the shakedown of

Speaker 7 ABC and Disney when he said, we'll do this the easy way or the hard way like a mobster. You get rid of Jimmy Kimmelo, we're going to do this the hard way.

Speaker 7 And specifically as it relates to shaking down the affiliate network owners like Nexstar and Sinclair, although Sinclair probably ideologically aligns with him as well.

Speaker 7 So that's that's a big development. The other big development is what's being discussed at this open meeting and what is it that Brendan Carr is trying to push.

Speaker 7 I know there's so much news going on, but it's important that we focus on all of these things.

Speaker 7 So Carr is trying to change the ownership rules that would previously have precluded consolidation by like one company to basically own all of the affiliate stations.

Speaker 7 And now what they want to do is consolidate ownership so that Trump's hand-picked right-wing oligarchs control all of the local stations across the country so they could all be speaking with one state regime MAGA voice.

Speaker 7 That's what we see in fascist countries. That's what we see going down here.

Speaker 7 So these modernization broadcast ownership rules are one of the main thing that the Trump regime wants to push, have his right-wing oligarch friends own all of the local stations and then demand they push out Trump propaganda and claim that's in the, quote, public interest, that the public interest is the Trump state regime MAGA agenda, a la Russia, North Korea, etc.

Speaker 7 So with that as background, why don't we bring in right now the former commissioner of the Federal Communications Commission under the Obama administration?

Speaker 7 He left his post in 2017 during the first Trump administration. Let's bring in Commissioner Tom Wheeler.

Speaker 7 And now I want to bring in the former chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, the 31st Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, Tom Wheeler, appointed by former President Obama in 2013, left during the first Trump administration.

Speaker 7 It's great to see you, Tom.

Speaker 7 A lot of people have questions, and I really want to get into what's going on in the FCC now, because I believe that what happened with Jimmy Kimmel was really just the first step.

Speaker 7 There's a broader issue here with these ownership rules and with everything that's happening now with government shutdown, with the daily chaos of what's happening in the Trump administration.

Speaker 7 I don't think people are focused a lot on these ownership rules, the consolidation behind the scenes. There's no better person to talk to it about it than you.
So what's going on? Great to see you.

Speaker 2 Well, Ben, it's great to be with you. And you're asking the key question because

Speaker 2 one of the interesting things that the whole Jimmy Kimmel exercise showed was the willingness of the Trump administration through FCC Chairman Brendan Carr to exert

Speaker 2 their

Speaker 7 authority to coerce

Speaker 2 broadcasters to

Speaker 10 control what people hear

Speaker 2 by controlling what the broadcasters say. And what you saw in the Jimmy Kimmel exercise was one manifestation of it.
But what's coming next

Speaker 2 is a further example.

Speaker 7 You know, you know,

Speaker 2 an autocrat's favorite tool

Speaker 2 is a monopoly on telling the story.

Speaker 2 And if

Speaker 2 you can control the people who tell that story,

Speaker 2 then you've got

Speaker 2 an autocrat's greatest dream. And so, what is now going on at the FCC

Speaker 2 is an effort to change the rules about

Speaker 2 who can own

Speaker 2 the right to use the public's airwaves to broadcast to Americans.

Speaker 2 Go back to the beginning of broadcasting, the 1934 Communications Act,

Speaker 2 in which

Speaker 2 the founding principle was a diversity of voices and diversity of ownership

Speaker 2 so that

Speaker 2 the debate that is so essential to democracy could take place. Over time, that has been whittled down

Speaker 2 to the point where

Speaker 2 only about 20%

Speaker 2 of America's local, quote-unquote, broadcast outlets are truly locally owned.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 what

Speaker 2 Chairman Carr announced on Tuesday of this week, the last day of September,

Speaker 2 was

Speaker 2 an initiative to change the rules

Speaker 2 to allow, number one,

Speaker 2 a handful of broadcasters to have a greater reach nationally.

Speaker 9 And number two,

Speaker 2 in that process, to allow them to have greater control locally.

Speaker 2 So I'll give you a quick example.

Speaker 2 There is a merger that has already taken place,

Speaker 2 already been agreed to, between

Speaker 2 Nexstar Media, which is the largest chain of broadcast outlets in the nation,

Speaker 2 and another chain by the name of Tenga,

Speaker 2 which is per se

Speaker 2 illegal today

Speaker 2 because it violates the FCC's rules in terms of both reach and local ownership.

Speaker 2 Yet the deal went through, or the deal has been agreed to, and is only awaiting the FCC to change the rules to make it legal.

Speaker 2 And Brendan Carr has indicated an intention to do that.

Speaker 2 And how do you make it legal?

Speaker 2 Well, you cut back on the diversity of voices, and you cut back on the diversity of ownership, and you give it

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 corporations

Speaker 2 that have self-identified as being Trump friendly.

Speaker 7 It is a wild concept, I think, for our audience to hear that back in the Communications Act in the 1930s, about 90 years ago, that

Speaker 7 everything that this current,

Speaker 7 I call it a regime, attacks, is diversity.

Speaker 7 But right there in the 1934 Communication Act, the main mission statement, diversity, diversity diversity of voices, diversity of ownership, and that here we are in 2025

Speaker 7 with this 90 years later, going to be 100 years later soon, attacking diversity. So, what can be done, though, with this ownership rule

Speaker 7 that's on the table now, that would be unthinkable, you know, I think back when, not unthinkable, people would think about it, but unpassable

Speaker 7 back in the day when you were the commissioner

Speaker 7 because diversity what when your mission statement is diversity of voices and diversity of ownership there are certain things that are likely non-starters what can be done how do how do we address it how how do how do you address it

Speaker 2 well the um i i'm addressing it by trying to make sure that there is an awareness of it um the uh

Speaker 2 the process that has just begun at the FCC is a process called a notice to proposed rulemaking. And there will be a period of about 30 days in which the public can make comments on this, FCC.gov,

Speaker 2 and then there'll be another period of 30 days where they can do reply comments where they say, well, this guy was wrong for this reason or whatever.

Speaker 2 And then the rule will

Speaker 2 be passed by the commission probably

Speaker 2 on a party line vote. There are two Republicans and one Democrat sitting on the commission today.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so one would expect that that would happen. And that will open an opportunity for lawsuits.
Those who participated in the proceeding, have filed comments, etc.,

Speaker 2 can challenge it

Speaker 2 in court.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 one would hope that something like that happens because

Speaker 2 I don't want to get down into the weeds of communications law, but there's an interesting thing that the limit on the national reach

Speaker 2 was set by Congress.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 suddenly the FCC thinks it can change that.

Speaker 2 Now, it's really interesting that

Speaker 2 the conservative Republicans for years have been saying, oh, there's too much power in these independent agencies. You need to cut them back.

Speaker 2 And the Supreme Court, Robert Supreme Court, just did last year, cut back the authority of independent agencies. And so it will be fascinating to see what happens if

Speaker 2 there is a challenge to this

Speaker 2 effort to make an illegal acquisition legal

Speaker 2 and how the courts deal with that.

Speaker 2 And so we're it so it is important to stand up and

Speaker 2 face this challenge.

Speaker 7 You know, our listeners and viewers who follow our legal analysis will remember the case that Tom is talking about there, the Chevron case, which used to be where you show deference to what these agencies are, unless they act arbitrary or capriciously or totally beyond the bounds of law.

Speaker 7 You would defer to the agency.

Speaker 7 With chevron deference being overruled, the federal courts now have a more robust authority to scrutinize what the agency is is doing so it will be interesting now in a post chevron deference world that people like brendan carr and other project 2025 authors were pushing to now see a lawsuit where they don't have the benefit of a chevron deference but that's getting in a little bit of the weeds but let's get out of the weeds but just talk generally i mean the you being a prior commissioner of the fcc

Speaker 7 seeing this guy brendan carr come in like did you know of this guy before I mean did you did you see this did you see this kind of coming I mean you know where where is this going what's your views about what's happening right now kind of kind of generally because look to me you know it's it's very odd to see a cartoonishly villain figure kind of show up on on Fox on an almost daily basis like this guy does and just say this is just the beginning We're coming after you next.

Speaker 7 I mean, it's a little bit strange to see that at the FCC, which is supposed to promote diversity of viewpoints and diversity of ideas, to have like a cartoon villain on TV.

Speaker 2 So, I've known Brendan for years. He was a former staffer at the FCC.
He was the former general counsel during the last

Speaker 2 Trump administration. No, it didn't work for me.
He worked for one of the commitments. When I was chairman, he worked for one of the commissioners.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 then, when that commissioner became chairman, he made him general counsel.

Speaker 2 And then Trump put him on the commission as a commissioner and then elevated him when he came in. He was the author, by the way, of the

Speaker 2 FCC chapter in Project 2025.

Speaker 2 And here's the

Speaker 2 fascinating thing about that.

Speaker 2 You say, you know, tell me about Brendan Carr. The first seven words in the FCC chapter in Project 2025, which Brendan Carr wrote, are the FCC should promote free speech.

Speaker 2 Really?

Speaker 2 That's what we just saw in Jimmy Kimmel.

Speaker 2 That's what we're seeing with the limitation of the diversity of voices. So, you know, I actually have respect for Brendan Carr.
Brendan Carr has

Speaker 2 great intelligence. He's a really smart guy.
He's a very articulate guy. He is a very strategic

Speaker 2 thinker.

Speaker 2 My problem is that he's putting those

Speaker 2 significant skills to work in efforts that are antithetical to the public interest.

Speaker 2 And therein lies another interesting point.

Speaker 2 that he justifies what he's doing because another part of the statute says that the FCC should act in the quote public interest, convenience, and necessity.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 Chairman Carr has been saying,

Speaker 2 Well, I'm going to define the public interest.

Speaker 2 And he defines the public interest as things that are

Speaker 2 an agreement with President Trump and his agenda. And

Speaker 2 I will enforce

Speaker 2 the public interest, this broad

Speaker 2 term,

Speaker 2 where I determined that this disagreement with Trump is not in the public interest. It's an interesting thing, Ben, that

Speaker 2 early in his tenure, he said, you know, we should probably have a rulemaking at the FCC that defines public interest.

Speaker 2 And I

Speaker 2 was taking bets then, and I will continue to take bets, that we will never see anything like that. Because it is impossible

Speaker 2 for somebody to sit down and

Speaker 2 relate the First Amendment to the MAGA agenda.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 any effort that Chairman Carr would do to do that

Speaker 2 is a mission impossible and

Speaker 2 will never happen. But the problem is

Speaker 2 that right now,

Speaker 2 this

Speaker 2 fuzzy term, the public interest, which we all want to support, is being interpreted in a quite unfuzzy way to mean

Speaker 2 things that agree with Donald Trump.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 7 And how do you, if you're going to do a definition of public interest in the context of the FCC, how do you untether that from the idea of diversity of voices and ownership that kind of underlines one of the main and the enabling statute to begin with?

Speaker 7 But before we go, I want to speak to you about what you want to see. Obviously,

Speaker 7 these are dark times for most Americans right now in the pocketbook.

Speaker 7 You know, also, again, as it relates to FCC, people

Speaker 7 wondering, you know, the people who I watch on TV, are they going to be canceled because they tell a bad joke about Donald Trump?

Speaker 7 I mean, is humor and comedy, you know, the same way lots of right-wing people wanted to try to fearmonger back in the day. Like now you actually have an FCC commissioner, like actually

Speaker 7 actual canceling of comedians. Like what

Speaker 7 do you want to see happen generally right now? Or, you know, we have 6 million subscribers right here

Speaker 7 who don't just want to watch like they would watch a cable news network and go, okay, let's see this person.

Speaker 7 They want to know what should they be thinking. So, as you're out and about, like, what do you want them to take away right now? We know the bad.

Speaker 10 Is there hope? What can we do?

Speaker 2 Well, there has to be hope, Ben. We always, you know, you can't get up in the morning if there's not hope.

Speaker 2 But,

Speaker 2 you know, what I hope people take away is, you know, the FCC

Speaker 2 used to be the largest unknown agency in Washington. You know, who could go around and name the FCC chairman? And I was FCC chairman.
And I, you know,

Speaker 2 and,

Speaker 2 but boy, everybody could sure name Brendan Carr right now.

Speaker 2 So the fact that there is an awareness of the power of the FCC, the fact that there is an awareness of the power of one individual to carry out the instructions of President Trump using the powers of the FCC is something that we all need to be aware of.

Speaker 2 And as I said before, we need to be making sure that our voices are heard through the channels of the FCC, such as FCC.gov and filing comments and being ready to

Speaker 2 stand up for things that we don't agree with. But

Speaker 2 there is an awareness.

Speaker 2 Action begins with awareness. And I'm just grateful for the fact that there is now some awareness because of this ham-handed handling of the whole Jimmy Kimmel exercise.

Speaker 7 I think it's really such an incredible point because

Speaker 7 we, the people, never actually,

Speaker 7 we took for granted that there were people, that there were people like you behind the scenes who were just quietly doing their job and who weren't out there every day saying, hey, look at me, everybody.

Speaker 7 Look what I'm doing. And look what I'm inflicting upon you.
You know, you you just go about the work. And I think we all now realize that we have to be active participants in this.

Speaker 7 We can't, we, the people, can't be idle and hope that there are people like you, Tom. We need to have active roles in

Speaker 7 understanding what's actually happening in the government and who these people are, and that people in agencies that may not, you know,

Speaker 7 be always front and center wield huge amounts of power over

Speaker 7 our day-to-day life. So I really appreciate it.
I really appreciate you coming on. Anything else you want? You're so smart.
Anything else you want to say before we get on?

Speaker 2 Well, you want to say anything else?

Speaker 2 Look, you're spot on. And I'm just grateful that you're creating a platform

Speaker 2 where these kinds of thoughts and ideas can be expressed. And

Speaker 2 they're no longer trees falling in the forest.

Speaker 7 Tom Wheeler, everybody, Federal Communications Commissioner back in the Obama administration, the chairman. Thanks for joining us, Tom.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Ben.

Speaker 7 Everybody, hit subscribe. Let's get to 6 million subscribers.
Thanks for watching.

Speaker 12 Want to stay plugged in? Become a subscriber to our Substack at MidasPlus.com.

Speaker 12 You'll get daily recaps from Ron Filipowski, ad-free episodes of our podcast, and more exclusive content only available at MidasPlus.com.

Speaker 13 Diotes, with grandeur since, the grandeur estos manos, así que si ten caner, puedes consegir unoferten una nueva vatidor a depie, te transformara en el principe del fan.

Speaker 11 Attention, attention!

Speaker 11 Abre paso albarón del brioch, al visconde del viscocho, y al conde de los cuernitos, miambro de prime Juan.

Speaker 5 C. A hola?

Speaker 13 Aprobecha horasta quarrenta porciento de descuento en prime big deodes. Diego prime big Deal Days para que concigas grandes offertas para a unuevos pa de piez.

Speaker 13 Pe transformara en la rina de la relajación espera.

Speaker 2 Ti neto rose porbuja.

Speaker 13 Aprobecha hora esta quarienta porciento menos in Prime Big Deal Days.

Speaker 6 This episode is brought to you by LifeLock.

Speaker 8 It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month, and LifeLock has tips to protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi-factor authentication, report phishing, and update the software on your devices.

Speaker 6 And for comprehensive identity protection, let LifeLock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information.

Speaker 8 Lifelock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe, and protected with a 30-day free trial at lifelock.com/slash podcasts.
Terms apply.