Why Do I Love the Way That I Love: The 4 Attachment Styles Explained

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Visit amika.com and get a quote today. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Speaker 1 I just want to start out by saying thank you, thank you, thank you for being here with me.

Speaker 1 I know that when you are here with me and you're listening to this podcast, you do it as a way to invest in yourself. And I think that's super cool.

Speaker 1 And that is why I am really excited for the conversation that you're about to hear, because this one is a really, really good one. What are we talking about?

Speaker 1 We're talking about something called attachment theory. And the reason why I wanted you to learn about attachment theory is because this framework has helped me profoundly in my marriage.

Speaker 1 It's helped me in my relationship with my kids.

Speaker 1 Frankly, it's helped me in every relationship that I have because understanding my attachment style has allowed me to really show up in a different way, in a more powerful and secure way.

Speaker 1 And I think it's going to help you too. Now, if you've never heard about attachment style, there are four different attachment styles.
You're going to learn in detail about all four attachment styles.

Speaker 1 And I love the expert that I have for you today. Her name is Thaise Gibson.
She has a brand new book out called Learning Love.

Speaker 1 And one of the reasons why I like the way that she explains attachment theory is she gets into the nitty-gritty.

Speaker 1 You're not only going to understand the four different attachment styles, she will explain things like, okay,

Speaker 1 if you text someone and they don't text back for three hours,

Speaker 1 this is how you will act based on your attachment style.

Speaker 1 She's also going to give you scripts, she's going to give you strategies, and she's going to teach you that you can change your attachment style. You can become more secure.

Speaker 1 Now, when I told our team that Thais Gibson was coming into our new studios in Boston, Shay Washington, who is our senior manager of the video team, fell out of her chair because Thais's work has changed Shay's life.

Speaker 1 Check this out.

Speaker 4 Around this time last year, I was going through like a huge, huge healing journey, and I realized that I was like so emotionally stunted. Therapy didn't work, antidepressants didn't work.

Speaker 4 And so I stumbled upon Thaise Gibson and the personal development school.

Speaker 4 But one thing that really stood out to me was when Taece Gibson specifically spoke about your core wounds, they still sort of manifest in my current day.

Speaker 4 And I just don't know how to navigate through any of those things. And I just never heard it broken down in that way that she broke it down before.
And things started coming together really smoothly.

Speaker 4 I had a much bigger understanding and it changed my life for the better. And like, I'm going to continue doing this self-work.
And I hope to one day become securely attached.

Speaker 2 Shay.

Speaker 1 I love you.

Speaker 1 And thank you for sharing that. And I had a very similar reaction to Thais Gibson's work.

Speaker 1 And I know you are too, because you're going to leave this conversation having a much better understanding of yourself, core wounds, attachment theory.

Speaker 1 There is no doubt in my mind that that's going to happen. In fact, it happened for me.
I walked into this conversation thinking that my attachment style was one thing.

Speaker 1 And it turns out it's something completely different. And it was Thais that pointed it out to me.
And I think you're going to have that revelation too.

Speaker 1 And there's one more thing that I'm really excited to share with you before we jump into the conversation.

Speaker 1 In addition to all of the amazing tactical information that you're about to learn that is going to help you improve your life, this episode has a bonus.

Speaker 1 It is followed by a very short bonus episode because Tais recorded a meditation for you. That's right, for you.

Speaker 1 And it's a meditation that you can listen to that will put everything that you're about to learn into action.

Speaker 1 And it's going to help you transform not only your attachment style, but also your subconscious mind. And it is there for you right in this podcast queue for free.

Speaker 1 The episode is entitled Daily Meditation, Listen for 21 Days to Reprogram Your Subconscious Mind. And you're going to want to listen to it right after this episode.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 1 Are you ready to learn why you love the way that you do? Me too.

Speaker 1 Tais Gibson, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Excited to be here with you.

Speaker 1 So thrilled you're here. Thank you.
So, Tais, you have this incredible new book called Learning Love, Build the Best Relationships of Your Life Using Integrated Attachment Theory.

Speaker 1 And one of the things that I love about your work is how empowering it is.

Speaker 1 You teach how every single one of us can break free from patterns that are holding us back using the science of attachment theory. So I want to start with the basics.

Speaker 1 What is an attachment style?

Speaker 2 The subconscious set of rules you have for love and connection.

Speaker 2 And those rules can be in the form of the different beliefs you have, the different needs you have, what you expect in relationships, and how you communicate and set boundaries with others.

Speaker 2 You're not born with an attachment style. It happens through conditioning, and we can recondition our attachment style patterns.

Speaker 2 If we grew up in an unhealthy environment, we didn't get good learnings about attachment styles and about relationships.

Speaker 2 We can actually heal that and change that to become secure and have really successful, thriving relationships, whether that's romantic, family, or friendships.

Speaker 1 Let's just start with the basics.

Speaker 1 You know, this is an episode that we're going to release at a time of year where almost everybody is thinking about goals for next year and resolutions and all the changes that you want to make.

Speaker 1 How does

Speaker 1 going to work on your attachment style and your beliefs about love and relationships, how the heck does that help you with goals or with making positive change?

Speaker 2 The biggest limiting beliefs that we pick up from childhood about who we are and what relationships look like also form primarily the relationship we have to ourselves, which will color everything else in our world.

Speaker 2 Whoa.

Speaker 1 When does this start in childhood exactly? Like, what age are you talking about?

Speaker 2 It gets conditioned into us actually between the ages of zero to two years old. That early? That early.
Zero to two. Zero to two.

Speaker 1 So the stuff that goes down before you even remember zero to two is what's stored in your subconscious? Yes. And is what drives you as an adult, unless you do the work to change it?

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 So like as an example, if somebody grows up in a household where they have a really critical parent and maybe that parent has the best intentions, they want to prepare their child for the world.

Speaker 2 It's really easy for a child because a child personalizes everything, right? They can't say, oh, my parent is communicating in a suboptimal way.

Speaker 2 So instead, what happens is the child goes, oh, this is about me. I must not be good enough or I must not be worthy or I must be bad.

Speaker 2 And so what happens is the meaning we give to things when we perceive our environment and our experiences. programs our subconscious mind through repetition plus emotion.

Speaker 2 So anything we're repeatedly exposed to that creates an emotional response basically fires and wires neural pathways.

Speaker 2 And so then what will happen is we form these deep beliefs about who we are in relationships.

Speaker 2 But unfortunately, these same beliefs associated with our different attachment styles will also be what we believe about ourselves in the workplace, in our friendships, in terms of how we operate financially.

Speaker 2 It can really spread into multiple areas of life. And a lot of the roots of these things actually exist from like how we attach and what we experience in our environment as young children.
Wow.

Speaker 2 I love that you just put

Speaker 1 this thing that every one of us struggles with. Every single day I wake up and I'm like, okay, today

Speaker 1 I'm not going to be bitchy to anybody. Today, I am not going to, I'm going to exercise.
Tonight, I'm not going to pour myself a glass of wine.

Speaker 1 I have all of these conscious intentions, but then things happen throughout the day and I find myself. dropping into the same behavior and it is incredibly frustrating.

Speaker 1 And so if I'm tracking with what you're saying,

Speaker 1 your theory and what you do out in the world, you now have 31,000 people that you are working with through your company on the stuff that you're about to teach us.

Speaker 1 You're saying that we can identify those rules and behaviors that run in the background, that drive our entire life, and we can change them.

Speaker 2 100%.

Speaker 1 That is amazing because we've talked about attachment style and attachment theory on this podcast before.

Speaker 1 And I find that a lot of the material on attachment theory is very interesting and empowering when you understand what your attachment style is.

Speaker 1 But I've always felt that's your attachment style, but I've never felt like there's a way to change it. Absolutely.
And you can change it.

Speaker 2 So we actually created a whole body of work called integrated attachment theory.

Speaker 2 And the whole purpose of it is not to just discover your attachment style and really see who you are and what your patterns are, but then to be able to use that.

Speaker 2 Because just knowing something doesn't give you a whole lot of context until you're able to say, okay, here's what I don't like about this. And here's how I can recondition what's not working for me.

Speaker 2 And if you're not born with something like an attachment style, if it gets conditioned into you over time, we're just reconditioning to move into a space that works better for us.

Speaker 2 And so it's quite simple to do. There's a lot of different tools I'm sure we'll get into and talk about, but that is the whole purpose of this

Speaker 2 work.

Speaker 2 Wow. Okay.

Speaker 1 So how many attachment styles are they and what are they?

Speaker 2 Okay. So there's four major attachment styles.
I'll talk a little bit about how they come about as well. So the first one is the securely attached child growing into the securely attached adult.

Speaker 2 And the secure attachment individuals in their childhood, they get a lot of approach-oriented behavior. So if they

Speaker 1 approach-oriented? Yes. What is that?

Speaker 2 So essentially, if they cry as a child, their parents will come towards them, try to figure out what's going on and what's wrong and try to meet their needs.

Speaker 2 And so the repetition and emotion, the conditioning or programming to the subconscious at this age is, okay, if I express my emotions, I get my needs met. It's safe to express my needs.

Speaker 2 It's safe to rely on other people. And I get loved when I'm in hard times.
So I'm worthy of connection and I'm worthy of love just for who I am, not for what I do.

Speaker 2 And so this person as an adult grows up to have much easier experiences around relationships, of course, and they trust and they rely and they communicate and they feel safe expressing their emotions and feeling their emotions.

Speaker 2 And so statistically, they have the biggest success rate in relationships relationships by far and away. Then we have three insecure attachment styles.

Speaker 2 On one end of the continuum, we have an anxious, preoccupied attachment style. And this individual essentially grows up with a lot of warmth.

Speaker 2 and a lot of care from their caregivers, but a lot of inconsistency. So a really common example would be that mom and dad are very loving.
They are approach-oriented.

Speaker 2 They do care, but they both have really long jobs. They're gone for 12 hours a day.
And the child's often at daycare or with the grandparents who might be more cold and withdrawn.

Speaker 2 And so what happens is the repetition and emotion, so the programming becomes, okay, I really want love and I really feel good when my caregivers are here, but it keeps getting taken away.

Speaker 2 And so this child learns to really fear abandonment and fear being left alone or excluded.

Speaker 2 And so they grow up really having a lot of abandonment wounds and they're very sensitive to rejection, exclusion, and they become very panicked if they see partners in their relationship start to pull away.

Speaker 2 And so they really struggle, unfortunately, because they want love, they want connection so much, but because of this deeply conditioned fear of abandonment, it's almost like they hold on so tight that the sand sort of constantly slipping through their fingers, it accidentally pushes people away.

Speaker 2 Wow. And so that's our anxious preoccupied.
And they tend to struggle in relationships big time, especially when it comes to getting people to kind of commit and stick around.

Speaker 2 On the basically opposite end of the continuum, there's a dismissive avoidant attachment style. This individual grows up with childhood emotional neglect.

Speaker 2 And sometimes it's really overt, like food's not on the table, nothing's organized.

Speaker 2 Sometimes it's very covert, where instead it's like, you know, mom and dad are there, but if you cry or express emotion, they're like, toughen up. They don't check in.

Speaker 2 If the child comes home from school, they're never going, oh, are you okay? I see that you're off. So this, this neglect happens.

Speaker 2 And this child grows up in this environment and they can't understand that my parents are emotionally unavailable.

Speaker 2 So instead, they go, there must be something wrong with me that I'm not getting my needs met. And so they build this deep wound of I am defective and they feel shame.

Speaker 2 And then they grow up and they don't want to be that vulnerable again to anybody and rely on anybody. So they become hyper independent.

Speaker 2 And in relationships, as a result, as soon as things get real or as soon as people get too close, they sabotage, they push away and they tend to fear commitment.

Speaker 2 And of course, the anxious and dismissives often end up in relationships together.

Speaker 1 Are you talking about my marriage?

Speaker 1 You just summarized three years of marriage therapy with Chris Robbins and Mel Robbins. But, and then what's the third insecure attachment story?

Speaker 2 So the last one is fearful avoidance, sometimes referred to as disorganized attachment. And essentially they grow up in an environment where there's chronic chaos.

Speaker 2 So a really easy example or analogy would be if there's a parent who's an alcoholic. So let's say it's mom as an example.

Speaker 2 One day the child comes home from school and mom is drinking and she's in a really good mood and she's really loving.

Speaker 2 Another day, you know, mom comes home or child comes home and she's, she's drinking a lot, but now she's angry. She's an angry drunk.
Another day she's sobering up. She's in a good mood.

Speaker 2 She feels guilty. Another day she's sobering up.
She's going through a withdrawal. she's in chaos, right? So it's like you never know what you're going to get.

Speaker 2 It can be a bad divorce, parents fighting all the time, having a parent with narcissistic personality disorder, all these sorts of things where there's chaos and fighting and you never know what you're going to get.

Speaker 2 So this child grows up having some positive experiences with love, but some terrifying experiences with love. And so they feel conflicted.
This is what I was.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, what the person will experience is this feeling of like, I want closeness. And then people get close and they're like, get back.

Speaker 2 And so they'll really be in this push-pull pattern, But more than anything, they struggle to trust. They feel like they can't rely on people.
They can't really connect.

Speaker 2 They don't want to open up too much, similar to the dismissive avoidant, but they also have the anxious side.

Speaker 2 And so they become, as adults, the hot and cold partner in relationships who's constantly going back and forth. But again, these patterns get conditioned into us.

Speaker 2 So the things we don't like or don't serve us, we can absolutely recondition to become secure and have thriving relationships.

Speaker 1 You know what I love about listening to you is that I find it personally reassuring that anyone can become more secure.

Speaker 1 And before we discuss the specifics of each of the four attachment styles and how we can use this entire framework to heal yourself and create better relationships, I really want to back up for just a second.

Speaker 1 I keep hearing you use the word subconscious, and it's a word that can be confusing to a lot of us. It's confusing to me, for example.

Speaker 1 So can you tell me and everyone listening, what exactly is your subconscious mind?

Speaker 2 So your conscious mind, if you were looked at, if you were looking at your mind from sort of the top down as an analogy, you have your conscious mind, which is like the tip of the iceberg floating above the surface.

Speaker 2 Your subconscious mind is what is just out of your conscious mind's awareness. And you can imagine it's sort of the part of the iceberg that's just beneath the water level.

Speaker 2 We actually then have the unconscious mind, which is like the very bottom of the iceberg. But our unconscious mind, it's very difficult to retrieve information from.

Speaker 2 So I put a lot of focus on the subconscious mind because your subconscious mind you can actually

Speaker 2 it's this warehouse of information but you can actually dig into it and be like oh how did i feel 15 minutes ago when that happened and you can retrieve information even though it's out of your peripheral awareness so in summary your subconscious mind is essentially the part of your mind that stores all information um and it's just out of your conscious mind's awareness but it is retrievable okay so i think that one of the most important things to recognize is that we have a subconscious mind that's really running the show.

Speaker 2 And our subconscious mind gets all these patterns and ideas about what love looks like. And then we take those with us.
And that forms the lens we basically see and interact with the world through.

Speaker 2 So if we grow up in an environment where we learn that we don't communicate about things or we learn, okay, we should just expect people to know what we need or we learn to violate our own boundaries and people please.

Speaker 2 If we learn these patterns at a subconscious level, your attachment style is the subconscious set of rules you have for what love and closeness and relationships are supposed to look like.

Speaker 2 And for some people, that works in their favor. And for some people, unfortunately, if they didn't learn healthy patterns, it's really working against them.

Speaker 2 And it can make relationships feel very difficult, very hard, and very confusing. Wow.

Speaker 1 There was so much I want to dig into. in what you just said.

Speaker 1 And one of the things that caught my attention is when you said that the rules and the beliefs that we have have about what love is and how relationship work, that that is all stored in your subconscious?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And why is it important to know that?

Speaker 2 Because our subconscious mind, first of all, is responsible for roughly 95 to 97% of our beliefs, our thoughts, our emotions, and our actions. And our conscious mind is 3% to 5%.

Speaker 2 And so the other thing we have to understand is that our conscious mind cannot outwill or overpower our subconscious mind, which means we can have the experience of

Speaker 2 I don't want to get angry at my partner.

Speaker 2 I don't want to raise my voice or I want to stop drinking or I want, we can have all these goals or New Year's resolutions or ideas for how we want to change our behaviors.

Speaker 2 But unfortunately, it just being a conscious goal, until it's actually ingrained at the subconscious level, we are going to experience this friction between what we say we want to do and what we actually do.

Speaker 2 And this has a huge impact on our relationship.

Speaker 2 Where if we say, I want to show up better, or I want to have a relationship that lasts, but if we have subconscious patterns working against us, we will constantly feel like we're putting the gas and the brakes on at the same time.

Speaker 2 And that can be a very frustrating process.

Speaker 1 Are you saying that it's possible, though, to change? Yes. What's in your subconscious mind?

Speaker 2 Absolutely. Of course.

Speaker 1 How did you figure all this out?

Speaker 2 I figured this out because I was a very, I had a lot of work to do on myself. I had a tough upbringing and I was like kind of a mess.

Speaker 2 And to be honest, the the actual brute was that I was addicted to opiates at 15. So I went through from 15 to about 20 years old.
It was actually, I think it was just before I turned 15.

Speaker 2 I had a knee surgery, got addicted to painkillers. And actually my biggest experience was every day being like, I'm going to get clean.
I'm going to delete people's numbers from my phone.

Speaker 2 And every day repeating the same pattern. And for me, going through that over and over again, I was like high functioning enough.
I made it to school.

Speaker 2 I was in a psychology class one day and somebody said to me, the conscious mind can't outwill or overpower the subconscious mind and i was like you described all of my suffering that i experience every day because going through that and being like i'm gonna do this and then every day losing that battle to myself it was like tormenting and so when somebody said that to me i was like i'm gonna learn everything i can on god's green earth about the subconscious mind and then it really opened up to all these different how you know what is the subconscious how does it affect us oh it's our core wounds it's our unmet needs it's our beliefs about ourselves that really extend from those core wounds and our patterns in terms of boundaries.

Speaker 2 So I actually started there, did all that work, actually went into practice and then revisited attachment theory.

Speaker 1 And by practice, you mean therapeutic practice.

Speaker 2 Yes. Working with counseling.
Yeah, counseling that.

Speaker 2 And so then I was doing a lot of subconscious work with people. And then I realized, oh, all of the attachment styles actually have very specific core wounds.

Speaker 2 All these generalized core wounds I was working on with people, there's about 18 or so, they actually fit in these perfect little packages to each attachment style, as well as the needs fit perfectly into these little packages, as well as the boundary issues.

Speaker 2 And the community, so what I ended up doing is, okay, once I know somebody's attachment style, I don't have to find all these core wounds all over the place. I just know their kind of blueprint.

Speaker 2 And then I had done so much work on the subconscious for how to heal. And so that's sort of how everything became born.

Speaker 1 Well, that makes a lot of sense because when you're working with someone who is a client of yours, you're dealing with the pain.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And by figuring out all of the pain that someone is talking about, whether it's I'm unworthy of love or I'm ashamed of what I did or I regret this or I don't trust somebody, whatever it is that the pain may be,

Speaker 1 you're only ever talking about the pain level. So you're not going deep enough to change fundamentally.
Absolutely. And so Realizing that you weren't going deep enough, you dug in.

Speaker 1 And it's when you discovered attachment theory and the fact that when you locate yourself in one of the four different attachment styles, you now have this simple framework to be able to heal the insecure attachment style that you may have or may be dealing with and become more secure with yourself and more secure in relationship with other people.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 I'm getting this. Thank you for kind of sharing the background on this because when we come back, I want to dive into exactly how to figure out your attachment style.
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Speaker 1 Taeese Gibson and I are going to be waiting for you right after the break.

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Speaker 1 Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins, and you are here with me and Thais Gibson, and we are digging into attachment styles.
And Thaise, I have a question for you.

Speaker 1 How exactly can you figure out your attachment style now that you're an adult?

Speaker 2 Great question.

Speaker 2 So part of it is definitely understanding some of the childhood context, but then it really goes into the biggest body of work that we developed on top of traditional attachment theory was about our core wounds.

Speaker 2 So each attachment cell has very specific core wounds. They also have very specific needs and they have very specific issues with boundaries and how they communicate.

Speaker 2 So we can kind of unpack unpack those two.

Speaker 2 So securely attached people, I mean, they tend to communicate healthily. They don't really have many core wounds that are specific to relationships.

Speaker 2 They can have insecurities because they're human beings, but we won't see too much of that as a whole. They tend to have healthy boundaries.
They want to resolve things right away.

Speaker 1 Is anybody securely attached? I mean, I was laughing as I was kind of.

Speaker 1 preparing to talk to you because as I was looking at the definition of secure attachment, I thought, oh, is this sort of like you thinking you're a good driver?

Speaker 1 90% of us think we're great drivers, but we're really not great drivers. Do most people think they're securely attached?

Speaker 2 It's actually very interesting. So traditional research will show about 50% of people are securely attached.
That many? 51% is the actual number. Yes.

Speaker 2 How is that possible? I completely disagree. And in my practice, what I saw over and over again is people will come in.

Speaker 2 They first session, I would take them through some of this stuff and they'd be like, oh, I'm the secure one. And then by session two, I was like, there's no way that they're secure.

Speaker 2 You know, they, they, and, and I think that people,

Speaker 2 um, we self, when we self-report, things are skewed, right? And, and those numbers, that 51% is based on self-reporting.

Speaker 2 Obviously, I have a biased sample size of people because they're people who are going through struggles and, and are reaching out for help and support.

Speaker 2 But I just found so many times that, like, more than half the time, people would say, I'm secure, and then definitely not secure.

Speaker 1 I'm kind of making a joke about it, but as a parent, right?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 having three kids, 24, 23, and 18, as I'm listening to you describe the four different attachment styles, I was listening both as a parent thinking, oh shit, you know, like I really

Speaker 1 probably created the anxious, preoccupied attachment style

Speaker 1 by

Speaker 1 working a lot. The second you said daycare, I thought, oh, gosh, that explains it.
Our two daughters were in daycare. There you go, Mal.
You really blew it.

Speaker 1 And then, of course, I'm listening for myself. And

Speaker 1 what was interesting is that I always presumed that I was probably anxious, preoccupied.

Speaker 2 Interesting.

Speaker 1 But as we have this conversation

Speaker 1 and I am listening in real time, I'm wondering if I'm going to see that I'm more in the fearful, I can't even say it. I'm so nervous.

Speaker 1 Fearful avoidant.

Speaker 1 Because when you said a chaotic environment, including narcissistic behavior,

Speaker 1 I was like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And when I go ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, you know it means I'm leaning in. And I know that you, as you're listening, are leaning in too.

Speaker 1 And so let's go even deeper into this concept of core wounds. What are the core wounds of the three insecure attachment styles?

Speaker 2 When we get into the insecure attachment styles, this is where we can really see the nuances that haven't been developed before.

Speaker 2 So anxious attachment styles, their biggest core wounds are: I will be abandoned, I will be alone, I will be excluded, disliked, rejected, not good enough, and unsafe.

Speaker 2 And what we'll see is they tend to feel this big trigger of unsafety when people pull away because in childhood, we're very reliant on our caregivers.

Speaker 2 So we can't literally cannot survive without them.

Speaker 2 And so what happens is as children, the anxious attachment style, when their caregivers pull away, they actually have a trauma response, like, will I survive without them, you know, as they're, as they're gone?

Speaker 2 And so we really easily confuse and intertwine survival with approval as anxious attachment styles. And that becomes really prevalent in childhood.

Speaker 2 And as adults, the anxious attachment style, they'll have a full like nervous system reaction when somebody pulls away. That abandonment will really trigger also this deep feeling of being unsafe.

Speaker 2 I'm just

Speaker 1 sitting here selfishly processing and thinking about my family and my relationships, as I'm sure as you're listening, you're doing the exact same thing.

Speaker 1 Can I give you a scenario?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because I think it might be helpful. There's no doubt in my mind that our daughter, Kendall, has anxious attachment style because I often say, I feel like you're human blankie.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And if she has a situation that is

Speaker 1 anything that would make her nervous or anything that would make her slightly uncertain.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 There's a phone call

Speaker 1 and you know that the attachment style is kicked in because then there's a second one and then there might be a third one. And

Speaker 1 is that sort of a classic indication that you feel

Speaker 1 this sense when you can't get a hold of somebody, this alarm bell goes off inside you and you're firing off the text or you're calling them again or you're checking their location?

Speaker 1 Is that a good example of the type of behavior that somebody with anxious attachment?

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 And so, what you'll see is that these core wounds, if you sort of were to trail them across, you'd see that core wounds, when we feel like I'm abandoned, we start thinking thoughts about they're never going to come back or what if I can't get my needs met.

Speaker 2 And then this sparks emotions. And then we'll feel those emotions.
And neuroscience has actually proven that every single decision we make is based on our emotions.

Speaker 2 So then these actions happen at a subconscious level where the anxious preoccupied will cling. And part of what's happening is they're terrified of losing proximity to people.

Speaker 2 And they also, as children, didn't ever learn to self-soothe consistently enough. So they really rely on other people to soothe.

Speaker 2 And when they can't soothe through other people, it will create problems in terms of their ability to regulate.

Speaker 2 And so some other things you'll see beyond core wounds is the needs anxious preoccupieds tend to have is they need a lot of validation, reassurance, consistency, certainty is a huge one, especially in their romantic relationships.

Speaker 2 And one of their big love languages is around physical touch. They want to be close.
They want to be nearby. You'll see a lot of those sorts of patterns.

Speaker 2 Anxious, preoccupied attachment cells are the sweetest. They are so kind.
They're so thoughtful. They really think about people.
They really spend a lot of time focused on the people around them.

Speaker 2 I mean, they have superpowers.

Speaker 2 And so, some of the superpowers of the anxious attachment cell is that they're very loving, they're very warm, they're very kind, they're thoughtful, they're supportive.

Speaker 2 They really go out of their way to think about the people in their lives. So they have all these beautiful characteristics they bring to relationships.

Speaker 2 But because their subconscious comfort zone is to be so focused on other people, the primary casualty in that relationship becomes the relationship to themselves.

Speaker 2 And so they will constantly deprioritize themselves, put their needs last, not speak up for their needs because they get into people-pleasing behaviors.

Speaker 2 And actually, all of those things that they're doing are the crux of why it's so difficult to self-soothe.

Speaker 2 Because if you don't know your needs, you can't meet your own needs, and you have all these core wounds, it becomes so difficult to self-soothe.

Speaker 2 And they'll constantly try to maintain that closeness and soothe through others. But when other people are not available, that's where it becomes really tricky.

Speaker 1 When it comes to trying to change your behavior or trying to achieve something or trying to achieve a goal, how does having

Speaker 1 this anxious attachment style and the core wound of abandonment show up in terms of sabotaging your ability to either be consistent or to do the work to change yourself?

Speaker 2 In so many ways. So one of the biggest things is like, let's say it's something in your workplace.

Speaker 2 Anxious attachment styles in the workplace, they'll often put themselves last. They'll put themselves on the back burner.
They'll take on other people's work and not set healthy boundaries.

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden, they're behind on their things because they're people pleasing others. And also, if they have this huge fear of abandonment, what happens is we abandon ourselves, right?

Speaker 2 Whatever our core wounds are also become the biggest things we reenact in the relationship to self because the subconscious mind wants to maintain its comfort zone.

Speaker 2 So if you see somebody with an abandonment core wound, they're so worried about getting abandoned by others that they will abandon themselves to please others.

Speaker 2 And that's actually how the wound stays alive. Like if we ask ourselves, hey, those wounds came from childhood 30 years ago, how are they still alive in me now?

Speaker 2 Oh, because I am reenacting them in relationship to self through repetition and emotion on a daily basis. And if I wasn't doing that, they actually wouldn't still be here.
It's not possible.

Speaker 2 So that's how the subconscious keeps these things.

Speaker 2 And so what the anxious preoccupied has to do is learn to meet their own needs, reprogram their subconscious core wounds, and then be able to actually consider themselves equally to others, like take their own boundaries into consideration as much as they do with others.

Speaker 2 And those things become a huge part of the healing process.

Speaker 2 And we can talk about subconscious reprogramming in a little bit, perhaps, but those tend to be some really important things to recognize in terms of the patterning.

Speaker 2 And then the very last thing I'll say is just anxious attachment styles as well. If they have a goal

Speaker 2 and then it's not even in the workplace, it's a personal goal.

Speaker 2 And then their friends say, but I need you. Or then they want to make social plans or commitments.

Speaker 2 They'll be so preoccupied with that that they struggle to actually balance the other areas of their life. They'll be so focused on relationships.
Career can be on the back burner.

Speaker 2 finances, mental growth, emotional growth, spirituality, all those things can kind of take less precedence, which of course they'll feel later over time because they're always deprioritizing the self.

Speaker 1 That makes so much sense. If you look at the anxious attachment style from a standpoint of needs, what are their core needs?

Speaker 2 Yes, the biggest needs that they have. And interestingly enough, these have to be the needs that they give to themselves.

Speaker 2 So the big needs are reassurance, validation, encouragement, support, to be seen, to be heard are really, really big, people who I'm being present with them.

Speaker 2 And then really that certainty and consistency, like those are the big ones.

Speaker 2 And I think once we discover that, the real like discussion has to become, well, if for any number of reasons, I didn't get access to that as a child, part of healing is to repetitively give that to myself now because I'm leveraging principles of neuroplasticity.

Speaker 2 Same thing, repetition and emotion that fire and wire neural pathways. And if I'm leveraging those principles, then by giving those things to myself,

Speaker 2 not only do I learn to self-soothe, but also, because if I have those needs met, the bucket's halfway full, right? So I'm not panicked without somebody else meeting them. I'm actually soothing myself.

Speaker 2 I'm able to get there. And then it also heals and undoes the past because we're changing the programming at the subconscious level that originally existed.

Speaker 1 So let's go back to the example. of somebody who's anxiously attached.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And they say to themselves, all right, I'm not going to bother my significant other at work today.

Speaker 1 And then they find themselves getting that wave of emotion and wanting to send 15 texts.

Speaker 1 What do you do in that moment? If the solution

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 1 reprogramming your subconscious is to give yourself what you need, what would you do as you're standing there with the phone? What do you do in that moment? Yes.

Speaker 2 Amazing question. So there's ways to reprogram that are proactive so that we can actually recondition those wounds to begin with so they stop coming back.
That's the real crux of everything.

Speaker 2 But in the moment, until we've done the reprogramming, which takes about 21 days, what we want to be able to do is make sure that we are in a position where whatever it is that we are needing from that person, we want to isolate.

Speaker 2 So if you're needing from your significant other, like why, what are you reaching out for? What are you hoping to get as the result? Are you needing encouragement? Are you needing certainty?

Speaker 2 And if you can look at that and realize, hey, I, as a human being, have the capacity to give that to myself, You can literally think of, if I could paint a picture of what that encouragement would look like from my spouse or from my friend or whoever it is, how can I give that to myself inwardly?

Speaker 1 So if I'm hearing you correctly, what you need to do is take a step back in those moments and ask yourself, what do I need?

Speaker 2 Yes. And what's really interesting is the subconscious mind really wants a comfort zone.

Speaker 2 So it doesn't like unfamiliarity because ultimately the subconscious is survival wired, which means anything unfamiliar, it tends to reject.

Speaker 2 It's part of why we end up up in the same types of relationship patterns or the same types of situations so often.

Speaker 2 So what happens is originally when an anxious preoccupied tries to give the need that they would want from others to themselves instead, like if I want to encourage myself, let me write out three of my wins or let me journal about why I will be okay.

Speaker 2 Or if I need certainty, let me schedule out what I'm needing or create structure in my life. At first, it feels a little bit foreign.
This is always like the thing for anxious preoccupied.

Speaker 2 They have the hardest time meeting the needs themselves, more so than the other insecure attachment styles.

Speaker 2 But as we start doing it repetitively, we start creating these neural pathways where it becomes more comfortable.

Speaker 2 So basically what happens is over time, through the repetition and emotion of building that into our comfort zone, we usually have to essentially use our conscious mind to recondition our subconscious mind.

Speaker 2 So at first, it's more like mechanical for the first little bit.

Speaker 2 It definitely helps to soothe in that moment, but it won't feel as soothing as what an anxious preoccupied is seeking from somebody else. Gotcha.

Speaker 2 But over by about day seven of doing this behavior repetitively, we start to build a subconscious comfort zone around it.

Speaker 2 And by day 21, I mean, I have seen at this point thousands of people who are like anxious, preoccupied, really afraid to even be alone and spend time alone, who now come and say, oh, I actually love spending time alone.

Speaker 2 I feel comfortable with myself. I've built this relationship to myself.
I don't panic anymore when my partner's not available. So this is something that's very feasible.

Speaker 2 It just takes that really first seven days of commitment to start feeling comfortable within it. And by day 21, we see a tremendous difference.

Speaker 1 That's incredible. So one other question before we move on to the other attachment styles.

Speaker 1 If you're in a relationship with somebody who has that anxious attachment style, what is the best thing for you to say or the best way for you to show up

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 1 create more security for the person? Like, can you change somebody else's attachment style?

Speaker 2 So So, in theory, yes, because anything we're exposed to through repetition plus emotion has the impact to reprogram. So, yes.

Speaker 2 And if you're dating somebody who's securely attached, there can be a benefit. However, there's a big caveat to this,

Speaker 2 which is that our subconscious mind, because it wants to maintain its comfort zone, tends to not be attracted to people who are very secure if you're insecurely attached.

Speaker 2 I have heard countless fearful avoidant attachment styles, just as an example,

Speaker 2 say things like, you know, I started dating somebody and there wasn't chaos and it felt boring.

Speaker 2 And anxious preoccupied as well, if somebody is too present or too kind or too sweet or too loving, often they will sabotage it.

Speaker 2 Because again, at the end of the day, the subconscious mind is like, I want what's familiar. Familiarity equals safety, which equals survival.

Speaker 2 And so if they grew up with a lot of push-pull, a lot of hot and cold and inconsistency, the anxious preoccupied will often reject somebody who's really secure.

Speaker 2 It's quite rare that they'll actually invest. And so I don't want to take away from the idea that, yes, in theory and in principle, that happens.

Speaker 2 Rarely Rarely have I seen that actually be the case in the years and years of client practice I've been focused on this.

Speaker 2 But what I have seen is that when we do that work in the relationship to ourselves, we get this two-pronged benefit, which is on one side of the equation,

Speaker 2 when we build a secure attachment in the relationship to ourselves, because we start to meet our own needs, because we reprogram our core wounds, all of a sudden, now we are securely attached to self.

Speaker 2 And so now we are actually attracted to securely attached people who will show up for us in a way that feels feels safe and familiar to our subconscious mind.

Speaker 2 And the second part is that there's tremendous benefit. I mean, doing the work helps you feel healed, helps you feel more confident.

Speaker 2 And because it's really about the relationship to ourselves at the end of the day, that will spill out into all other areas of life, be it career, financial, friendships, family relationships, et cetera.

Speaker 1 Thais, that was a master class in anxious, preoccupied. I can't even say it.
My head is spinning so much.

Speaker 1 And I know as you've been listening to Thais, you've now basically put half of your family into that category. But I want to hit pause.
Let us hear a word from our sponsors.

Speaker 1 They allow me to bring this to you for zero cost. But when we come back, don't you be anxious.
I want you to stay attached.

Speaker 1 I know I'm making stupid jokes, but we're going to go in depth into the two other insecure attachment styles. One is the dismissive avoidance, and the second one is the fearful avoidance.

Speaker 2 Stay with us.

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Speaker 1 Welcome back. It's your friend Mel.
I am so happy you're still here because we are just scratching the surface on what you're about to learn about attachment styles.

Speaker 1 We've already covered everything you need to know about the anxious attachment style. We've got two more to cover.
First up, dismissive avoidant attachment. That's a mouthful, Taise.

Speaker 1 So how about you tell us who is that person?

Speaker 2 So because this person grows up with that childhood emotional neglect, they tend to really not want to emotionally attach to people. They tend to want to keep their space.

Speaker 2 They basically, as children, adapt to the discomfort of emotional neglect because we're all wired and attuned for deep connection, right? So they adapt by going, well, I don't need that.

Speaker 2 I'm just going to not need it. So I stop feeling this pain and shame of rejection from it.

Speaker 2 Because if you grew up as a child yearning for that connection, yearning to be seen, and we're literally biologically wired for that, just yearning for it all the time becomes counterproductive.

Speaker 2 Eventually, that yearning is so pervasive that the person adapts by going, I'm going to reject the connection that's rejecting me. And that's how I'm going to feel safe.

Speaker 2 So their big core wounds because of that become, I am defective. I am shameful.
That's why I couldn't get my needs met. They're very sensitive to criticism, although they will not show it.

Speaker 2 They're too stoic to show it.

Speaker 2 Very sensitive to criticism, though, and they'll really withdraw and they self-soothe by literally pushing everybody away and icing everybody out because they really go inwards and they usually rely on different creature comforts for soothing, like binge-watching television or eating a lot of food or video games or these sort of things that they can soothe through.

Speaker 2 Yes, exactly, exactly. All of those things, 100%.

Speaker 1 What are the core wounds for somebody with a dismissive avoidant attachment style?

Speaker 2 Dismissive avoidance, their big core wounds are: I am defective, I will be unsafe. They really tend to not like conflict.
They'll try to sort of retreat from conflict.

Speaker 2 A lot of the time until it reaches sort of a threshold, then they may get involved.

Speaker 2 They tend to feel trapped, helpless, powerless, afraid of being weak if they rely on others.

Speaker 2 And they actually tend to, especially people who grew up in a more severely neglecting environment, tend to have this deep wound and kind of fear that I do not belong, kind of like I'm an outsider.

Speaker 2 Because as a child, if you grow up in that environment, you're not getting to deeply connect with other people. It will really foster that kind of wounding.

Speaker 2 So this individual as an adult becomes a person who can be very charming, charismatic, wonderful early on, but when things get real, they often get afraid. And so they will push people away.

Speaker 1 And they tend to- Or withdraw. Is that like the other, like when you say push people away, it sounds very active and purposeful.
Yes. But is

Speaker 1 withdrawing and isolating? Yes.

Speaker 2 That's actually a really beautiful nuance that you you pointed out, which is the pushing people away versus pulling away.

Speaker 2 For sure, the dominant pattern with dismissive avoidance is to pull away and to withdraw and to really retreat, kind of like a turtle going into their shell.

Speaker 2 But we will definitely see dismissive avoidance, especially in like the earlier dating stages of relationships, actively push people away by sabotaging the relationship by leaving early.

Speaker 2 If they feel like their feelings are too real or it feels too raw for them, they'll often say, okay, I have to get out of here. That's it.
We're done. And there can be that push away dynamic.

Speaker 2 But when they're actually in a committed relationship, you'll see a lot more of the pulling away, the withdrawing, the retreating.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 1 what are their needs? Because I'm married to somebody who is always in his head. Yes.
Like he's very, very kind-hearted. Yes.
And yet isolates so quickly.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And is

Speaker 1 absolutely checking the box on absolutely everything that you just said. Yes.
And he has often said, I really am not sure what I need.

Speaker 2 Yes, that is the dismissible wooden slogan.

Speaker 1 But how do you then, what do they need if they don't know what they need?

Speaker 2 It's an amazing question. And so, what you'll see is the big needs that they have are: number one, they really need to feel safe in their relationships.

Speaker 2 This element of feeling that sense of safety and consistency is really important because, as children, they didn't feel safe when they had that neglect going on.

Speaker 2 And so, they tried to develop that sense of safety just within themselves, but they often don't feel too safe relying on other people.

Speaker 2 Beyond that, they really need, even though they will never show it, they really need acknowledgement and appreciation. Now, they don't want like, oh, you're the best partner in the world.

Speaker 2 They don't want these grandiose forms of it. They want the little things.
They want, hey, I see that you're really trying here. Thank you.

Speaker 2 Dismissive avoidants respond extremely poorly to negative reinforcement. They respond extremely positively to positive reinforcement.

Speaker 2 And what you'll see is if you ask a dismissive avoidant for a need to be met and then they do it and you say, hey, thank you. I see that you like really showed up for that.

Speaker 2 They get this sense because you have to remember, right? If you grow up as a dismissive avoidant, then you don't get modeling for healthy exchange in relationships.

Speaker 2 You get modeling for neglect, for everybody being ships passing in the night. And so they often feel really disempowered and incapable of doing relationships in this way.

Speaker 1 You are literally describing my husband.

Speaker 1 I wish I had known this year one under our marriage. I mean, we're at year 27 and are finally unpacking the fact that, and what you just said is incapable.
Yes.

Speaker 1 That he was so conditioned to be on his own. Yep.
Ships passing in the night. Fend for yourself is the word that he used about his childhood.
Yes. Fend for yourself.
Totally.

Speaker 1 And also this sense, because it's been very frustrating at times to go, you're so capable in every other area. Why the hell can't you just like

Speaker 1 think ahead about us or about the family? Now, a lot of things have changed, but this makes so much sense.

Speaker 2 And dismissive avoidance often, like you said, they're so capable.

Speaker 2 They're very capable because they had to mentally and intellectually develop to fend for themselves, but they didn't really emotionally develop the exchange and relationships because that wasn't there.

Speaker 2 So they're almost stunted in their growth emotionally there. And that's part of when we go to needs that appreciation and acknowledgement gives them this idea that, oh, I can do this.

Speaker 2 I am doing this right. And they respond so positively when they get that acknowledgement and appreciation.
Now, beyond that, some other needs that they really have is they really tend to need empathy.

Speaker 2 They really tend to fall into like infatuation or limerence.

Speaker 2 If somebody's really empathetic and supportive of them, it goes a very long way because, again, these are deeply unmet needs from childhood.

Speaker 2 And so that sense of supportiveness, that sense of empathy, that sense of appreciation, acknowledgement, safety, all of those things, harmony tends to be another huge need in relationships, but I would say those encompass encompass their biggest needs.

Speaker 2 The really interesting thing is that the dismissive avoidant has the subconscious comfort zone. So because of this, what you'll see is like they grow up, they get neglected.

Speaker 2 Who is the biggest neglecter of the dismissive avoidance emotions?

Speaker 1 Themselves. Themselves.

Speaker 2 And so part of their healing, just like for the anxious preoccupied, is to learn to give to themselves what they didn't get access to in childhood repetitively.

Speaker 2 So when they can actually start tuning into their feelings, practicing like meditation or breath work or things that are going to anchor them into parasympathetic or rest and repair nervous system mode, what you'll see is doing that, getting their feelings back online, actually being okay with their emotions, not being afraid of them, realizing that their feelings are just feedback, they're just guidance mechanisms, building that relationship back to their feelings is actually the very thing that gives them emotional bandwidth in their relationships to others.

Speaker 2 Wow. So that becomes a huge part, along with giving themselves appreciation, giving themselves a sense of support.

Speaker 1 Well, what's interesting is that, you know, if you're in a relationship with somebody who has this dismissive,

Speaker 1 avoidant attachment style, you tend to get very frustrated.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. And so you,

Speaker 1 in your frustration, are giving a lot of negative reinforcement, which makes them only pull away more and act more confused and more ashamed and more avoidant of you.

Speaker 1 And it makes sense that the small, specific, consistent, positive thank you for this. I see that you're doing this.
I appreciate that. Thank you for remembering this.

Speaker 1 You're creating this reciprocal exchange that they never got in childhood.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 In the context of goals, so you have somebody who is dismissive, avoidant,

Speaker 1 and they have personal goals.

Speaker 1 How do they sabotage

Speaker 1 their

Speaker 1 ability to take new actions, to be consistent, to put themselves first?

Speaker 2 Great question. So often what you'll see is their subconscious comforts and because there's a lot of this wounding of shame, they often don't want to be seen.

Speaker 2 So they can avoid putting themselves in the spotlight. They can absolutely avoid asking for help.

Speaker 2 It's such a big dynamic where they will just, they'll think they have to do it all on their own all the time.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure you've probably noticed this in your life as I have is it's sometimes comfortable to do it all on your own, but you get so much further ahead in life when you're working with other people, when you have people you can learn from and learn with and support each other.

Speaker 2 And I think one of the biggest pain points is that they will literally get into a place where they won't be open to that. And they can struggle to work in teams sometimes.

Speaker 2 They can silo themselves out a lot. So that would be a big saboteur in regards to work.

Speaker 2 But then personal goals can be that because they have such a subconscious comfort zone of needing safety, needing comfort, sometimes they can be ones to avoid stretching themselves as much as other attachment styles because they kind of want to just retreat into that safety and comfort zone in their spare time.

Speaker 2 And part of what's happening is they're actually dealing with a fairly dysregulated nervous system throughout the day. They're kind of in low level fight or flight a lot of the time.

Speaker 2 And so when they finish work or these commitments that they have to do or have to show up for, they will often retreat and go into just soothing by themselves, doing their own thing at the end of the day, which of course then you're not putting those, that time into stretching, into growing yourself in other areas.

Speaker 1 That makes so much sense because you're right.

Speaker 1 If anxious attachment is high levels of that fight or flight energy, which I think we all know somebody who's anxiously attached to is a friend or somebody that we're dating or somebody in our family, and you can feel that vibrational energy.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. I also very much relate to the description of a low level

Speaker 2 of that fight or flight.

Speaker 1 They may not show it on the surface, but they are up in their their heads withdrawing, dealing with it. Absolutely.
Now, one more scenario for the dismissive avoidant.

Speaker 1 Can you give us one with regard to texting

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 reaching out to somebody you're dating? And what is the conflict that a dismissive avoidant would have? If the anxious attachment person is, okay, I'm not going to text him today.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to be clingy today. And then

Speaker 1 they're texting. What does a dismissive do?

Speaker 2 Dismissive avoidant is almost the exact opposite. So they tend to get afraid of people relying on them to various degrees because they feel like, okay, I can, I'm just here to take care of myself.

Speaker 2 They feel like it's a big commitment. And they also feel like it's a bit of an injustice in that commitment.
Like I shouldn't have to do things I don't want to do.

Speaker 2 The really interesting thing is that exactly what each attachment style needs to do to become secure is essentially, if we could sort of summarize it in a very high level umbrella term, it's like we are striving for interdependency.

Speaker 2 Anxious attachment cells are super codependent. I should meet all of your needs.
You should meet all of mine. We never meet our own.
Dismissive avoidance are very counterdependent.

Speaker 2 I should meet all my own needs. You should meet all your own needs.
And we'll just sometimes come together.

Speaker 2 What they each need to do is to come to center. I can meet my needs and I can rely on myself to meet my needs and feel empowered to do so.

Speaker 2 And I feel safe and comfortable expressing and receiving from you and vice versa.

Speaker 2 And the dismissive avoidant when it comes to texting, they sort of have this idea that like, I shouldn't have to text you if I don't feel like it.

Speaker 2 But part of their growth is to allow people to rely on them. And they will actually do better at that when they learn that, hey, I can rely on other people too.

Speaker 2 There is an exchange and there's something beautiful about the exchange.

Speaker 2 And what we'll see is on the path of dismissive avoidance becoming more secure, they'll start to rely on other people a little more first, and then they'll actually feel good about it.

Speaker 2 And then they'll realize that they want to do that with others and allow others to rely on them. And then when they get that positive reinforcement, like, hey, I see you showing up.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 and they feel capable and they feel encouraged, that's where they start to really move into interdependency.

Speaker 2 And they won't feel like texting if they don't feel like it is a chore, and they'll be more mindful and more consistent.

Speaker 1 This is so amazing, and you're right, it is an incredibly helpful framework to really understand why some people are the way that they are. And we've covered a lot, so let me just recap where we are.

Speaker 1 We've covered what people with a secure attachment style are like. You have described anxious, preoccupied attachment.

Speaker 1 We've now just covered dismissive, avoidant attachment styles, and we got one left, and that is fearful avoidant. Thais,

Speaker 1 who are these fearful, avoidant, attachment style people and what do they show up like in life? And can you tell us about their core wounds?

Speaker 2 Yes. Okay, so fearful avoidance, because of growing up in that chaos, they usually, their primary wound is actually to struggle with trust.

Speaker 2 And it may not be trust in this really overt way, the way you would think, but fearful avoidance are the most hyper-vigilant.

Speaker 2 They notice everything, reading between the lines on everything, little tiny microexpression change they thought they saw at first, little tiny change in a pattern of behavior, they noticed it.

Speaker 2 And fearful avoidance actually have the most core wounds. So they tend to have the core wounds of the anxious.
They can fear abandonment.

Speaker 2 But what we'll see a lot for fearful avoidance is they can want this connection. They can feel afraid of being abandoned or not good enough or disliked or alone.

Speaker 2 But if people get too close too fast, they can also go into their very avoidant side, feel very afraid of being trapped, helpless, powerless.

Speaker 2 And then that's sort of combined with this struggle to trust and to feel safe, opening up and relying on other people. So they really have both sides.

Speaker 2 What's interesting as well is that as you date somebody more avoidant, because the Fearful Void kind of has the shared attributes of both sides, it will polarize you more into your opposite side.

Speaker 1 So make you more anxious.

Speaker 2 Exactly. They tend to have a little bit more intensity, a little bit more fire and spice.

Speaker 2 So we will generally see that fearful avoidance, they tend to be, you know, fairly high achievers, hard workers. They tend to be a little bit of overcompensators sometimes.

Speaker 2 Sometimes this idea of like, if you grew up in a childhood where nothing was kind of ever good enough, you can actually struggle with a deep unworthiness core wound as well.

Speaker 2 And so really struggle to kind of overcome that by showing up in all these different ways. Obviously, there can be superpowers to that.
That can be super beneficial.

Speaker 2 But again, the sort of casualty in it can be the relationship to self because it can be so much about the outside world, how you have to show up for others.

Speaker 2 Fearful avoidance shows up incredibly well for people in crisis, but they're so focused on other people, concerned with other people, that again, they kind of lose that relationship to self.

Speaker 2 And the funny thing, as well, is that, you know, with a fearful avoidant and dismissive avoidant, this is something I noticed so much with my own husband, is

Speaker 2 I,

Speaker 2 in the early stages, realized I was much better at communicating my needs because I had done a lot of work on that. But I realized that I still had this element of like expecting him to know my needs

Speaker 2 when I would become critical or negatively reinforced.

Speaker 2 It was because I would hold in my needs, not make space for myself, put myself last, prioritize everybody else, and then I would hold it in, hold it in. Anxious preoccupied can do that forever.

Speaker 2 Fearful avoidance cannot. They hold it in, they hold it in, and then they kind of become the volcano erupting eventually.

Speaker 2 And they will say something harsh with their words or they'll cut a little bit with how they speak.

Speaker 2 And what happened and what the learning for me was was, okay, I have to be so good at communicating my needs proactively.

Speaker 2 And that was actually part of my healing as a fearful avoidant was to learn till I consider myself as much of those I was considering everybody else.

Speaker 2 And so fearful avoidants have this dynamic of being very on, very intense personalities. They've had to struggle through chaos.
So sometimes that subconscious comfort zone is chaos.

Speaker 2 They make very good entrepreneurs because they tend to do well outside of their comfort zone in the chaos.

Speaker 2 But part of the healing is learning to be balanced and centered, learning to keep the relationship to self.

Speaker 2 And of course, we have to do the healing on the abandonment wounds and the trapped wounds, you know, both the anxious and avoidance side. But the real dynamic is to learn to trust.

Speaker 1 Could you say more about the trust?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because I think when you say the word trust,

Speaker 2 it to me,

Speaker 1 I just think of, oh, do I trust you? Do I not trust you? And I think

Speaker 1 on the the surface, I think I trust people.

Speaker 1 But as you're talking, I'm feeling like when I don't know what my needs are, I get very overwhelmed and chaotic internally.

Speaker 1 And how does that relate to trust?

Speaker 2 Because there's this element of not trusting your environment to be okay.

Speaker 2 There's this element at a deep level of the trust isn't just, and it can be, of course, like that I don't trust somebody won't lie or betray me.

Speaker 2 The thing that's really important to remember too is that our attachment wounds become the loudest and the most real for us when we actually attach

Speaker 2 so we may what does that mean it means when we actually build an emotional bond and start developing feelings or open up or developing real closeness so you may feel like oh i trust the stranger on the street or the person i just met but when we really let somebody in that's when we'll feel afraid that they might leave us or they might betray us by lying or through infidelity or through not showing up in a pinch when we really need them to be there And so you'll see that those elements can really represent trust, but at a deeper level, because it really is the relationship to ourselves first, we'll also see that trust shows up in the way of us not trusting the outcome, trusting the environment.

Speaker 2 Sometimes we'll try to hyper-control things. And so the real healing for that trust wound actually becomes to look at all the places we betray ourselves.

Speaker 2 And a lot of that can be that we don't show up for our own boundaries sometimes, or we say, it's fine when it's not actually okay.

Speaker 2 or we agree to things and we say yes when it's really a no and we don't protect our space, or, you know, there can be ways that we betray or lie to ourselves even, like this is completely an okay situation.

Speaker 2 Meanwhile, you're just floundering, you know, so there can be these dynamics where we do that. And part of the healing around trust is to understand it in that context.

Speaker 2 And then as a result of that, to be able to be better in the relationship to ourselves around those things.

Speaker 2 And as we do that better, we'll learn to trust other people because we'll also learn that people are not perfect. They're never going to be perfect.
People will hurt us.

Speaker 2 But the real building of relationships doesn't come from people being perfect. It comes from when somebody does hurt us, we can be vulnerable and say, ouch, that hurt.
That didn't feel good for me.

Speaker 2 Can we work on this together? And allowing people that chance to build that trust with you by working on it. And that's where we really built those deep roots around trust.

Speaker 1 You know, as I'm sitting here listening, it almost sounds as if the anxious and the dismissive avoidant attachment styles,

Speaker 1 it's typical for somebody to be trapped in it and not really know their needs and to be completely hijacked by their emotions.

Speaker 1 And if I'm reading between the lines based on what you just said about the fearful or disorganized avoidant, that you do know when your boundary is being violated. You just don't do anything about it.

Speaker 2 It's a really nuanced thing, but it's really a powerful question. What tends to happen is that fearful avoidants can be a little bit dissociated from their, from themselves.

Speaker 2 They can be a little bit like so focused on the external world and their commitments and their things they have to do that they can be a little bit disconnected.

Speaker 2 And generally what happens is fearful avoidants will feel their emotions very strongly when they feel them.

Speaker 2 And it will usually look like holding things in, but it's, you may sort of have to reach this pivotal threshold where the emotions become strong enough because the frustrations and the experiences are big enough.

Speaker 2 But now you reach this threshold and it's almost like the fearful avoidant will go, oh, this person's violated my boundaries.

Speaker 2 Wait a minute, they did this three weeks ago, and four weeks ago, and five weeks ago, and then that frustration will really come to a head.

Speaker 2 And so, yes, there can be a pushing down and a repressing, but it's almost so subconscious that it's not even in the periphery.

Speaker 2 And when it does come to the threshold, then the emotions can be a little bit stronger.

Speaker 1 So, when it comes to personal goals, how

Speaker 1 does a fearful avoidant sabotage their ability to change?

Speaker 2 Great question. They tend to put so much pressure on themselves and take on so much that eventually they can kind of scatter themselves and be pulled in too many places.

Speaker 2 They also tend to put the goals and the interests of other people sometimes ahead of themselves. And again, it's not that we should be always putting ours ahead of everybody else.

Speaker 2 We want to get into equilibrium as much as possible. So like considering ourselves equal to others as much as possible.

Speaker 2 Whereas fearful avoidance tend to be like put everybody first to a fault until they're really frustrated and reach that threshold. So that can be a saboteur.

Speaker 2 And then also trivial avoidance core wounds can get in the way, right? We can come to believe, okay, I'm not worthy of my goal or, you know, I don't deserve it or I'm not good enough.

Speaker 2 Or I know for myself, something I learned on my own journey to being secure was that I used to run a business all on my own.

Speaker 2 And I wanted to control things enough because I didn't trust that other people could do it properly. And so, and it was that sort of trust wounding, right?

Speaker 2 Like, oh, but if I give this to somebody else or delegate it, they may not be able to do it and they might make a mistake.

Speaker 2 And so learning to rely on other people with our goals, learning to reach out for that help and support and to delegate can be a really important part of building that trust as well.

Speaker 1 So the good news is that you can

Speaker 1 go do subconscious work because all of this stuff is running in the subconscious of your brain. Yes.
And you're not going to overpower it with your conscious mind.

Speaker 1 And the only way that you're you're going to change how you are showing up in relationships to yourself and everybody else is to take care of it in the subconscious. 100%.

Speaker 1 How do we do that?

Speaker 2 Okay, so the first thing is we want to go back to the principles of repetition and emotion.

Speaker 2 That repetition emotion of us being able to first meet our needs, like we talked about, is a really important pillar of healing.

Speaker 2 The second thing is we can talk about a really simple tool to reprogram the core wounds, which is called auto-suggestion.

Speaker 2 So this is the really powerful step to becoming secure to reprogram your core wounds. And it is called auto-suggestion.

Speaker 2 So basically, how auto-suggestion works is the first thing, and I'll give sort of a background story here for store context for it.

Speaker 2 But the first thing is we want to put ourselves in what we call a suggestible state. As somebody with a background in hypnosis, this is where this comes from.

Speaker 2 Suggestible state basically means that your brain is producing mostly alpha brainwaves.

Speaker 2 And when you're in alpha brainwave state, you're a lot more suggestible, aka your subconscious mind is much more open to suggestion or to being reprogrammed.

Speaker 2 If you've ever seen somebody in an alpha state, it's often after a deep meditation. It's the first hour that they wake up in the morning, the last hour before they go to sleep.

Speaker 2 Or if you've ever seen somebody when they're watching television and you're like, Bob, Bob, and like Bob's just like in the television, he's like in this sort of trance-like state.

Speaker 2 When we watch television, we actually produce a lot of alpha brain waves. So we get into a relaxed state.
Easiest way is first thing in the morning when you wake up.

Speaker 1 Okay, but can I just make sure I understand? Yes.

Speaker 1 That when you first wake up, you are in the alpha state. Yes.
But if you look at your phone, I'm assuming you will not be able to get yourself in your life.

Speaker 2 You can't get yourself out of it very quickly.

Speaker 1 Okay. So you're talking roll out of bed.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 And immediately, the first thing you do so that you can take advantage of this alpha state in your brain where you're highly suggestible, which means highly programmable, everybody. What are we doing?

Speaker 2 So then what we do is we take our first core wound. Okay.
So let's just use a really simple one for argument's sake. So let's say it's I'm not good enough.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Now, how the hell do we figure out our core wound?

Speaker 2 So remember the anxious prayer code was like abandoned, alone, excluded, disliked, not good enough. So we mentioned them all before.

Speaker 2 So hopefully people recognize themselves in that attachment style so far.

Speaker 1 So if you go, so the process is first, locate yourself in the attachment style.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1 Second, really dig into what is the wound for you and how is it showing up?

Speaker 2 Yes. And I mean, you can like, if you're not sure, you can ask yourself, when I get triggered, what am I afraid the worst case scenario will be?

Speaker 2 Like you can think of times you were triggered and be like, what am I really afraid will happen next? And that's a way of kind of isolating it.

Speaker 2 But as a general rule, vast majority of people are like, I have the abandonment core wound and they feel it and they know. And so, so you can pick the one that's really bothering you the most.

Speaker 2 If we started with one for each, it would be abandonment for anxious attachment style. It would be betrayed for fearful avoidant, but also very strong secondary,

Speaker 2 abandoned or trapped. Those also show up quite strongly.
And dismiss avoidant would be, I am defective. So like I am shameful, essentially.
Gotcha. Okay.

Speaker 2 And so we pick the core wound that's bothering us the most. Then we oppose it.
Okay. So what's the opposite of the core wound? Let's just use, I'm not good enough.
I am good enough.

Speaker 2 Now, here's the really interesting part.

Speaker 1 But what if you don't believe it? Like, you know what I mean? Like, here's the thing.

Speaker 1 Like, okay, well, if my core wound that's been in my subconscious for 50 years that runs on repeat, where I literally look in the mirror and go, that's a loser.

Speaker 2 Well, so that's the point, right? Is that your subconscious doesn't believe it. And so we have to address like a lot of people will do affirmations.
Affirmations are extremely limiting.

Speaker 2 I'm a big not believer in affirmations. Here's why.
Your conscious mind speaks language. Your subconscious does not speak in language.
If I say, do not, whatever you do, think of the pink elephant.

Speaker 2 You can't help it. Like you think of the pink elephant.
Your conscious mind hears do not. Your subconscious mind, do not is irrelevant.
It just hears and sees pink elephant, right?

Speaker 2 So what we have to do is we have to understand the language our subconscious mind speaks, which is emotion and imagery. Huh.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So we need to leverage emotion and imagery for reprogramming and we need to do it repetitively because the repetition is what fires and wires.

Speaker 2 So if you think of subconscious reprogramming, three simple ingredients, repetition, emotion, imagery. The more you have of all of it, the better and the faster it will work.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So if we have, I am not good enough, we have to find emotion and imagery for I am good enough.

Speaker 2 If I were to say, okay, tell me your favorite childhood experience and close your eyes for it, you would close your eyes and you you would start talking about it and you would smile and you would actually see the memory in your mind's eye.

Speaker 2 And the emotion is actually the container or the memory is the container for emotion there. So you would actually feel the emotion still in that memory and you would see the images.

Speaker 2 So what we do for auto-suggestion, we get in that suggestible state. We get in that relaxed space.
Then we say, okay, what's the opposite of my wound? I am not good enough. I am good enough.

Speaker 2 And then we find 10 pieces of evidence or memory for why we are good enough.

Speaker 2 So for example, it could be I graduated from this school and we want to feel about it and see ourselves walking across the podium or, you know, getting our certificate.

Speaker 2 And as we do that, we are actually using our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind. And we are doing it repetitively.
So we are firing and wiring new paradigms of how this works.

Speaker 2 And then we ideally want to divest, not feed into those old stories, those old narratives in the same way.

Speaker 2 But if we literally just do that, 10 pieces of evidence in a suggestible state to oppose our core wound for 21 days, there are tremendous, tremendous results people will have.

Speaker 2 And they can actually drop these big core wounds that they've been carrying forever that are causing them in the first place to feel all that panic around abandonment or fearing to really rely on people or open up or fearing being trapped.

Speaker 2 Like we can let those things go once and for all.

Speaker 1 So given that you've done this with more than 31,000 people, what is the coaching that you have for somebody who

Speaker 1 is new to this and they're sitting there saying to themselves, well, I don't even know what an image would be of me being loved you might i'm sure this is the most common objection you hear which is i can't think of one so what advice or coaching do you have for the person listening that's like okay i get it i'm gonna bathe in this emotion and these visual images but i can't even come up with one for i'm good enough or i'm lovable or you know i i am what like i How do you do that?

Speaker 2 That's a great question. And this is for sure, like you said, one of the biggest sort of points that people hit where they will feel stuck.
So what we do is we start general and then get specific.

Speaker 2 So if somebody's not open to seeing that I am loved or I'm worthy of love, we start with things like it is possible to be worthy of love.

Speaker 2 And then we can even start as general as looking for other people who are similar to us or other people we know and how we may share characteristics.

Speaker 2 So we're just trying to, the really interesting part is that repetition and emotion will build momentum.

Speaker 2 So if we start with something that just feels like a little stretch outside of that subconscious comfort zone, because part of why we are also like, I have no idea, is because we have a comfort zone.

Speaker 2 That's like, no, I am unloved. And I'm scared to even believe that I could be loved because I, every time I've hoped for that, it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 So our subconscious will try to like give us that pushback. And that's normal.
For some people, it's, they don't have much of it at all because they're open to the work and they're excited.

Speaker 2 For other people, there will be like a specific wound they get really stuck on. And so we start really general.
So we would say something like, it is possible to be loved.

Speaker 2 And if you still don't feel resonance with that, we can say it is possible for all people to be loved and look for other evidence of other people you've seen with similar characteristics, build love, connect with people, create that loving relationship.

Speaker 2 And we can start there. And what we'll see is generally around day seven, people will start to have like a little bit of that resonance and feel good about it.

Speaker 2 And when we start feeling like, oh, okay, this is believable for me now. I can see myself coming into resonance.
That's where we stretch again.

Speaker 2 We say, okay, it is possible for me to be loved, not just all people to be loved. And then we stretch again.
And the other thing too is people don't have to come up with like 10 new things every day.

Speaker 2 We We can hack this system. We can record it in our phone and we can just listen to it back and feel about it for 21 days if we want to shortcut and streamline the process.

Speaker 2 But it's just the repetition and emotion that we really need there with that imagery.

Speaker 1 Thais, I just love that people can use that simple tool to begin to change their attachment style.

Speaker 1 And I also love knowing I can change my attachment style because what you're offering is not only this awesome framework, but you're also offering a simple way for any one of us to reprogram our subconscious mind.

Speaker 1 That is so cool. And I also want to thank you because you have put together a special bonus meditation for the listeners of the Mel Robbins podcast.
And that is so generous of you.

Speaker 1 And for you listening, let me just tell you a little bit about this meditation so you know what to expect. So Thaise recorded this meditation as a gift to you.

Speaker 1 It is designed to be listened to 21 days in a row. And here's how you can find it.
It's the very next episode of the Mel Robbins podcast. We also put a link in the show notes.

Speaker 1 But the title is this, Daily Meditation. Listen for 21 days to reprogram your subconscious.
And again, it is already there waiting for you right after this episode.

Speaker 1 It's one of the tools that Thais uses with her private clients. And it's something that you can use and share in your own life.

Speaker 1 Thais, can you just give the person listening a sense of the impact of this meditation?

Speaker 2 Yes. And so you can shut all the stuff we've been carrying for so long.

Speaker 2 I mean, sometimes we have all these like wounds and they show up everywhere and they interfere in so many different areas, but to actually drop them and to not have them that you, they're popping up and you have to cope all the time and backtrack and apologize, like to not live like that.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 Amazing. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you for being here.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you.
This is, I'm honored to be here. So grateful for, for you having me.
Well, I'm grateful too.

Speaker 1 I learned that I did not have the attachment wound that I thought I did.

Speaker 2 That's good news.

Speaker 1 And I know what to do about it. So

Speaker 1 what you're doing is really important.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 I am

Speaker 1 just in awe of how simple this framework is and how powerful it is.

Speaker 1 If you truly start to apply this to your life, I also want to thank you for opening my eyes to the fact that my attachment style is not what I thought it was, because that insight is going to allow me to make my marriage even better.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 And one more thing. As you're listening, could you just send a little positive energy to Tais and help me thank her for the bonus meditation that she created specifically for you?

Speaker 1 Please check it out next. Listen to it 21 days in a row.
I can't wait to hear the impact that it's had on your life.

Speaker 1 And if nobody else tells you this today, let me be the person to tell you: I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to become the most secure and the happiest version of yourself.

Speaker 1 I'll see you in a few days.

Speaker 1 I think the dry cleaner must have washed this shirt. Oh, it has totally shrunk.
The sleeves are shorter.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much for. Hold on a second.
I might need to probably do this. Yep.
Thank you so much for taking the time to be here with. Okay, hold on a second.
This is.

Speaker 2 Can we start over?

Speaker 1 And let me give you an example.

Speaker 2 Is that, do you hear that?

Speaker 1 Is that geese?

Speaker 2 No, it's the Amazon truck.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, it sounded like

Speaker 1 10,000 geese. I'm like, what is happening over there?

Speaker 1 Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 Okay,

Speaker 2 what?

Speaker 2 Okay, okay, great.

Speaker 1 All right, got it, go.

Speaker 2 Superpowers as people,

Speaker 2 the camera is like, don't worry. Oh, that was yours.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And generally within the first,

Speaker 2 not meant to be

Speaker 1 my camera.

Speaker 2 That's okay.

Speaker 2 And try to actively.

Speaker 2 I feel we got further this time, though. We did.

Speaker 1 We out.

Speaker 2 Oh, and one more thing.

Speaker 1 And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language.
You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.

Speaker 1 I'm just your friend.

Speaker 1 I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.

Speaker 2 Got it?

Speaker 1 Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

Speaker 1 Stitcher.

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