2 Secrets to Handling a Narcissist: A Toolkit for Dealing With Toxic Behavior at Work, Dating, Marriage, and Family (With World-Renowned Dr. Ramani)

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Speaker 2 Hey, it's Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Speaker 2 Okay, how you doing? I hope you're doing great because you're going to be better after this episode today. And I hope you got a seatbelt because you're going to want to buckle up for this one.

Speaker 2 And you might even want to get your pen out. You're definitely going to need to bookmark this.
We are going to have a rocking and powerful conversation together.

Speaker 2 I cannot wait because you will not believe who is in the house.

Speaker 1 We have the one and only Dr. Romany back.

Speaker 2 Now, if you don't know who Dr. Romany is, that's okay.
You will now. She is the world's leading expert on narcissism.

Speaker 2 She's a best-selling author, professor, and host of the HIIP podcast, Navigating Narcissism.

Speaker 2 Now, a couple of weeks ago, I asked her to come on the podcast to teach you and me the five warning signs that we got to know so that we know when we're dealing with a narcissistic personality.

Speaker 2 And more importantly, she gave us tools on how you can protect yourself. I personally had so many takeaways from that episode, especially something that I now call the Chicago rule.

Speaker 2 And here's the Chicago rule. Look, you can't change the weather in Chicago.
And no matter what you do, you cannot change a narcissist. That's why you need tools to protect yourself.

Speaker 2 If you haven't listened to that episode about the five warning signs of dealing with a narcissist, don't worry. It is there for you.
You can listen to it once this episode is over.

Speaker 1 And I would actually encourage you to do that. And here's why.

Speaker 2 That episode was so powerful and so helpful to people around the world that you guys made that one of the most shared episodes on all of Spotify the week that it launched.

Speaker 2 And not only that, you flooded us. I mean, you avalanched our website with questions about narcissism, dating a narcissist, narcissism in the workplace.
What if my kid is a narcissist?

Speaker 2 What if I'm a narcissist? And one of the things that I noticed is that so many of you realized, holy cow, I'm in a relationship with one. And now you got questions.

Speaker 2 Should I keep my mom and my dad in my life or not? What do I do if one of my kids is a narcissist? Now, here's the thing.

Speaker 2 You definitely want to listen all the way to the end of this episode because it's really easy for someone to give you soundbite advice on TikTok or Instagram and just be like, cut them out of your life.

Speaker 2 But today you've got the world's leading expert sitting in a chair at the the table with you, and she's going to walk you through adaptive strategies to improve your current situation while you are working toward making bigger changes in your life.

Speaker 2 And that's really important because this is not only a helpful conversation about narcissism, especially when you find that you're in a relationship with one, but it's also...

Speaker 2 a practical and honest one that you're going to be able to use immediately after you hear this. So I can't wait to jump in.
Let's get right to it. Dr.
Romani, thank you for coming back. Thank you.

Speaker 2 Here's where I want to start because we got a lot of questions about this after doing our first episode about

Speaker 2 parental narcissism and growing up with a narcissistic parent or sibling in your house, how it affects you as an adult, how to heal from it. A lot of people want to know,

Speaker 2 am I more prone to dating? a narcissist if I grew up in a household with a narcissistic caregiver.

Speaker 1 Well, it certainly sets you up with a vulnerability because it almost normalizes some of it.

Speaker 1 And it also takes away, it robs a person from their sense of self and the fact that they even have the right to express their needs.

Speaker 1 Well, that's a perfect trap because now if you're not expressing your needs, the narcissistic person you need isn't going to meet them anyhow.

Speaker 1 You can easily get caught, repeat that same trauma-bonded dance of justifying this person's behavior, feeling that it's your fault.

Speaker 1 Like it really, it sort of indoctrinates you into accepting this behavior in a partner.

Speaker 2 Because it's familiar from childhood?

Speaker 1 It's familiar and it's also a,

Speaker 1 it becomes almost a psychologically a way of relating to the world. In fact, I've worked with more than a few survivors who said, you know, I met a healthy person.

Speaker 1 They were kind and empathic and generous of spirit and believed in me. And I convinced myself I was bored with them.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 That's so true.

Speaker 1 Like it is true that there are lots of, like we all have a friend or sibling that you're like, they're such a nice person or the person that you're supposed to be with is right in front of you and i tell them if you've come from come through a narcissistic family system and you meet someone and i boring is not even the right word that you're not i hate to say it is that you're not triggered by them right but you feel like it's not

Speaker 1 It's not what you think love is supposed to be, which is exciting. But think about what your life was as a child.
It was a roller coaster. Good days, bad days.
I'm going to win them over.

Speaker 1 Today's the day.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, who's going gonna come home today they have a candy bar in their briefcase for me it's a good day like that kind of up and down and and just anticipation almost makes it that an adult relationship that's characterized by that roller coastery vibe is what you've conflated with love so when a survivor tells me I've met someone like I don't know it's not all the Zaza Zoo I'm like okay this might be a keeper let's just keep going Sadly, what I've witnessed, Mel, is that many people had to go through the brutality of a narcissistic relationship.

Speaker 1 And then, after having to leave that and shut it down, were they then able to hold space for someone who treated them with kindness and generosity? It breaks their hearts.

Speaker 1 They think, what would my life have been if this was the kind of person I had been with all along?

Speaker 1 But it's almost as though their psyche couldn't accommodate that because nobody's teaching this in school. People learn about this after they've been hurt by it.

Speaker 2 Well, and you know, the thing that you just said that I think is really important is whatever that roller coaster was, that was your experience of love because you were a child.

Speaker 2 That's what you know.

Speaker 2 And so it makes a lot of sense to me. So for those folks that are listening,

Speaker 2 we got this question a ton.

Speaker 1 What,

Speaker 1 well, first let me ask this.

Speaker 2 So if you listen to the first episode or you already know that you grew up in a household with a narcissistic parent,

Speaker 2 what are the few things that you need to do?

Speaker 2 for your own healing so that you can

Speaker 2 be open to and interested in somebody who's healthy for you, even though you've never been with somebody who is.

Speaker 1 Number one is being willing to see it clearly. This is a painful, like it's that painful awareness of, oh my gosh, my parent

Speaker 1 is narcissistic. My parent is antagonistic.

Speaker 1 I have a parent who has no empathy because it almost is like leaning into this sort of, a lot of people say who had narcissistic parents said, I felt a certain shame about my childhood.

Speaker 1 Like I knew something wasn't quite right here, but I didn't know what it was. No kid wants to be the odd kid out, right?

Speaker 1 Nobody wants to be the kid who has the fighting parents or something's not quite right in their home.

Speaker 1 And I think with people who grew up in those kinds of home, it was sort of like fake, like to the world, like maybe your friends would come over and your parent would actually be really charming, but then when everyone was out of the house, your parent was a rager.

Speaker 1 That kind of inconsistency really would leave people feeling like, what is wrong with me?

Speaker 1 So it becomes, it really becomes doing, it is about therapy or doing the deep dive of being willing to sort of look at these patterns with a very open eye, no matter how painful it is, that just because you came from a narcissistic family system, it doesn't mean you're damaged.

Speaker 1 It's not an indictment of you, which unfortunately a lot of people feel. And then to really take a good, hard look at where has this hijacked you? Where has this

Speaker 1 robbed you of your autonomy, of your identity, of who you are? Like do the hard work.

Speaker 1 Some of that can even be done, if not just through therapy, through journaling, just being aware of where that happened, how you talk to yourself, how you apologize for things you didn't even do wrong, how you're constantly putting yourself down, self-gaslighting yourself, like, oh, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 Don't listen to me. How many people do that reflexively? That's a throwback to that childhood.
It's about getting your house in order.

Speaker 1 before you start going out there and basically replicating those cycles.

Speaker 1 Unfortunately, that's not what people are taught to do. And a lot of people in their early 20s don't have the time, the volition, or the money to go into therapy.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Are there personality types that are more prone

Speaker 2 to like having a narcissist come into their lives?

Speaker 1 Well, I think that there's definitely the

Speaker 1 person who's who comes from a narcissistic childhood. There's a vulnerability there.
Listen, I'm going to say this

Speaker 1 to make this almost as an easy question to answer. Everyone is.
There's not a person out there who's not. And I'll tell you why.

Speaker 1 Because at first blush, narcissistic people are charming, charismatic, curious, confident. They're comforting even.
They feel like they can take care of things.

Speaker 1 so if these people were coming in on date one screaming at you and cursing at you probably not gonna be a date two that there's a whole phenomenon of love bombing well okay we'll get to love bombing in a minute but how the hell are you supposed to spot one then if you're dating you because this is where the trauma bond becomes a problem so what the trauma bond results in not just that alternation between good and bad but you justify the bad days right so oh dad just had a bad day at work i um mommy's just really tired.

Speaker 1 We're all pushing her to, and then you internalize that blame. Daddy had a bad day at work.
I have to be good. You know, mom, mom's just really tired.
I have to help.

Speaker 1 So, like, they're trying to, but they just, you justify, justify. Think of everyone in a narcissistic relationship.
He had a tough childhood, has a competitive job.

Speaker 1 The deals haven't been coming through the way they want. They just want what's best for us.
I mean, I, I mean, the justifications go on forever, but the justifications keep the toxic dynamic in place.

Speaker 1 And that's another core pillar of that trauma bond, right? So the justify, justify, justify.

Speaker 1 And so everyone's vulnerable because you meet someone and you're attracted to them and they are charming and interesting or whatever it is that appeals to you about them.

Speaker 1 And they stay that way four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks, three months sometimes. Now you're in.
You're falling in love with this person.

Speaker 1 Now the stuff starts to gurgle up, those proverbial red flags.

Speaker 2 And what are the proverbial red flags when you're dating?

Speaker 1 Okay, the red flags might be things like getting snappy when you give them a little bit of feedback,

Speaker 1 being really entitled when you go to a restaurant with them.

Speaker 2 So watch how they treat waiters.

Speaker 1 Watch how they treat waiters. Watch how they treat anyone.
How they talk about other people.

Speaker 1 Contemptuous dismissal.

Speaker 1 How do they get along with your friend?

Speaker 1 It may be that one of your friends, the one friend that might have called them out on someone, might be the one friend they say, you know, I don't think that friend's good for you kind of thing.

Speaker 1 So those things will pop up. But here's the thing.

Speaker 1 Mel, I was talking with someone recently on my own podcast and in her situation she didn't have a single six years of marriage not one red flag i'm going to make people listen to my podcast to hear what happened when that when the red flags came piling in but there's someone six years she's like i am being honest with you and people who knew me would say the same thing there was no red flags so everyone i i'm saying this for one reason why like why like A lot of people blame themselves.

Speaker 1 They'll say,

Speaker 1 one day, whether it's one year in, two years in, or 10 years in, the narcissism shows up. There must have been red flags.
I didn't see them. I must be an idiot.
This is my fault.

Speaker 1 This is my fault for not seeing the red flags.

Speaker 1 And I really want to tell everyone, while some of them may be out there, some of them may be humming at such a low level that you're not noticing them, or they're so reminiscent of what you grew up with.

Speaker 1 They're like, oh my God, this is nothing compared to my mother kind of thing. But in the vast majority of cases, the red flags were there.

Speaker 1 And it's a combination of they were, they either people didn't know know they were red flags people justified them or people blamed themselves immediately like i shouldn't have criticized their sweater you know even though it wasn't a criticism they quickly justify but everyone is vulnerable now are some people more vulnerable certainly people who grew up with a narcissistic parent or parents they're vulnerable people with histories of trauma who already are sort of might be sort of struggling that can often result in self-devaluation and other phenomena that would lead a person less like, you know, less likely to call out the red flags.

Speaker 1 People who,

Speaker 1 this is going to be a surprising one, people who come from very happy families with two loving parents and just happy, happy. Those folks are vulnerable because

Speaker 1 they can't even believe this exists. So when there's a red flag, they'll often think like, well, we just loved each other through this stuff.
And ain't no loving anyone through a red flag.

Speaker 1 So they might turn to that. There are people who are going through periods of transition.
So like on the rebound, people will sometimes meet narcissistic people.

Speaker 1 When When a person moves to a new city, has moved to a new job, has experienced a major loss. These are people who are already more vulnerable.

Speaker 1 And the idea that someone new is coming into your life, especially let's say new city, oh wow, this is great. I'm meeting someone and you kind of go into the rom-com mindset rather than like,

Speaker 1 this is moving a little bit quickly, that kind of thing. People who are in a rush are vulnerable.
People like, I got my biological clock is ticking. All my friends are getting married.

Speaker 1 That kind of thing. Those are folks who may be vulnerable saying, okay, Okay, I'm just gonna have to settle here because I really want to be a parent, and this is who's in front of me right now.

Speaker 1 And I can't tell you how many people have gotten roped in narcissistic relationships because they felt a time clock ticking around marriage, around settling down, around having a child.

Speaker 1 They really felt like it's if I don't do this, I don't want to end up like my friend who ended up never meeting anyone and regrets that.

Speaker 1 I tell you, one thing they regret is meeting that person. Exactly.
And so, all of these kinds of other sorts of vulnerability factors that a person can bring in can

Speaker 1 increase the vulnerability beyond what we all have. And I think that the idea that all of us, that

Speaker 1 somebody is not vulnerable, I mean, again, the unicorns out there are the people who really, really like almost see it right away. Listen, I do this.
This is what I do. I'm still, I'm still

Speaker 1 played. People still come into my life.
I'm getting better at it. But to get better at it, Mel, I almost had to become, I feel at times there's a part of me that's become kind of closed off.

Speaker 2 So is there one or two red flags that for you

Speaker 2 are just non-negotiable? Like the second you see that one,

Speaker 2 you are like, nope. Because when you talk about being closed off, because you are extremely warm and extremely smart and extremely generous.

Speaker 2 And so I'm just wondering, because I think that what's scary about hearing all this is that by the time you kind of wake up and you're three months into something or three years into something

Speaker 2 and all the bonds are there and the lease is signed and you're married or you have kids or now you've moved in together or now you're like got all the chemicals flooding your body because you're falling in love and you start to hear these red flags.

Speaker 2 You know, I never would have had the strength, I think, when I think,

Speaker 1 you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Be like, oh, okay, time to end this. No, no, no.

Speaker 1 Most people don't. And that's again, it's important for people to hear that because a lot of people feel foolish.
Why didn't I hear the red flags? I knew it on my wedding day. I knew it.
I felt it.

Speaker 1 Because when we, you know, again, these stories are so easy to tell backwards. But at that point, it would have felt cataclysmic.

Speaker 1 And in a way, this was the only way you were going to truly get the lesson. You know, it's unfortunate.
And I, you know,

Speaker 1 the issue then becomes like

Speaker 1 when I meet somebody who's a little bit too charming, a little bit too charismatic, I shut down.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm like, why, what is this? And people are saying, you're the only person I've ever met who walks away from charismatic people.

Speaker 1 Literally, I've been at gatherings, and a person's just that person. And

Speaker 1 people must think I have some sort of bowel disorder because I'm like, I have to run to the restroom. The number of times at a social event, I'll say, I have to run to the restroom.

Speaker 1 People are like, what did she eat? You know, it's interesting that you say that because

Speaker 2 I recently

Speaker 2 a couple things go down, both in business and life, that were just shocking betrayals, lies stolen from all that kind of stuff that just knocked me over.

Speaker 2 And when I look back through my life,

Speaker 2 there is a very pronounced pattern of me being drawn like a moth to the flame to very charismatic, funny, kind of rebel-y people.

Speaker 2 And I get sucked right in.

Speaker 2 And then I realize once I'm like kind of in the inner circle, oh my God, this person's unpredictable. This person like trashes people that leave the room.
This person has major mood swings.

Speaker 2 And then I literally go into a mode of just twisting myself in knots to not upset the person. Correct.

Speaker 1 That and that is actually, that's actually a a trauma response. Yeah.
Twisting yourself into knots to not upset the person or even like, you know, like, oh, you're so great. Like the fawning response.

Speaker 1 These are classic trauma responses.

Speaker 2 And it took a couple really painful experiences back to back to have me look backwards. It was almost like life hit me with a sledgehammer.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and that, and I think that that's what it is, too. You know,

Speaker 1 you and I both worked in the media and you in a much more profound way than me.

Speaker 1 But I have to say, over the many years I've done this, what I've always seen was the charming, charismatic, grandiose people never, ever, ever followed through on their promises.

Speaker 1 And to much, sometimes almost to my financial, to my very real financial harm and all of that. And I thought, and that happened in academia, that happened in other areas of my life.

Speaker 1 And so I think for me, those things have become correlated in my mind. Big talker, big promise, big, big, big, all that big talk, it never comes to fruition.
And I got hurt by this.

Speaker 1 So when we talk about classical conditioning, it's like Pavlov's dogs, right? This elevating dog when they, when they heard the bell. For me, it's charming charisma means

Speaker 1 you're about to either

Speaker 1 betray me or

Speaker 1 you're just full of BS. And so that, but a lot of harm had to come to me to learn that lesson.

Speaker 1 And when I connected the dots to my own childhood and my own experiences, I saw, I could see how I got played. And like I said, now it comes off as

Speaker 1 a little bit closed off. I wouldn't be surprised if people would think that about me.

Speaker 1 And I do think that this is the, in order for all of us to become more narcissist resistant, we need people around us that will back us up.

Speaker 1 And where I'm really blessed, at least professionally, is a team that calls BS. They'll read emails like, nah, no, no, yes, no, yes.
And then I'll go deeper in. And sometimes I'll be like, yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 And they'll say, listen, it's your gig. You call that one, but we don't love this.

Speaker 1 And so it's, and that's, did I hear that? Right. In fact, the other night, I had had an experience that was really uncomfortable.
And it was, and I was like, was that uncomfortable?

Speaker 1 And I remember my team like, that sucked. And I was like, oh.

Speaker 1 And I, and it was, so that you, if you have the people around you who are actually able to, to be authentic and, not, and call out BS, that's also another way you become more resistant to this nonsense versus almost like having siblings.

Speaker 1 that bond together like healthy siblings yes healthy siblings not siblings that throw you under the bus right and so and i think that because the problem is a lot of people are surrounded by enablers oh come on, he kind of seems like a nice guy and he's cute and he's from the same place and you're

Speaker 1 I'm like, he's invalidating you. I don't care how nobody's that cute.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry, as a mom now, I'm like, mm-hmm,

Speaker 2 thinking about my daughters. But what is love bombing?

Speaker 1 So love bombing is the

Speaker 1 It's the sort of the, it's where the trauma and charisma turn into behavior. It's the early phase of any narcissistic relationship.
We tend to only use this term for romantic relationships.

Speaker 1 It can happen in friendships, workplace, you name it, anywhere. It is this intense and overwhelming, I'm going to call it a courtship, where a person is,

Speaker 1 it's almost an obsessive fascination with you. They are, is a person trying to win you over.

Speaker 1 The classical kind of tropey love bombing is on your first day, you go to the best restaurant in town, then they get the concert tickets no one can get.

Speaker 1 And on your third day, you fly to Paris and you dance till 6 a.m. and on the beach.
And it's so exciting. And they make a scavenger hunt for you and they get you gifts.

Speaker 1 And every Friday, there's a dozen roses waiting for you. That's love bombing.
It's fairy tale. It's larger than life.
But

Speaker 1 I think if we only use that trope, it's tricky. Yeah, I was just going to say, who can afford to do that?

Speaker 2 I'm like, that's

Speaker 2 like,

Speaker 2 how do you do that on a blue-collar budget?

Speaker 1 I'll tell you how. Tell me how.
You take people to whatever is considered the best restaurant

Speaker 1 to your budget. Like the person's still going to think that's great.
They'll pack. They'll say, let's go on a drive to wherever the cool place to go on the drive is.

Speaker 1 I'm going to show you the coolest view you've ever seen in your life. They'll buy things.
It might not be.

Speaker 2 I'll just take the whiskey off your feet. I'm proving to you.

Speaker 1 Good night, princess. Good morning.
I can't start my day without thinking about you. And then there'll be subtle things.
like take a picture where you're at. I just want to see where you're at.

Speaker 1 To me, that's this person's stalking you. Why do they need to know where you're at? Of course, I am the anti-romance.

Speaker 1 Do not find me on Bellzo. I'm not known.

Speaker 2 But not on the like second date.

Speaker 1 Right. But it's a lot of that.
It's, it's intense contact, but love bombing just doesn't look like that. Love bombing may become really intense, almost oversharing, really early in the game.

Speaker 1 Like they're, they're laying out like these, this really deep, profound, true or untrue story about their past, about their childhood, about what they're feeling.

Speaker 1 And for some people, that's the play because they'll say, oh my gosh, this person's sharing so much. They're so vulnerable.
And now you're kind of in because they've shared so much.

Speaker 1 Love bombing can be too much time together. Our first date lasted two weeks.
Like, do you even have a job? Like, what kind of, I mean, what kind of first date lasts two weeks?

Speaker 1 So, like, when people say that stuff are like, I knew right away, I was like, trauma bond. You know, like the minute people say that, I know that sounds so cold, but it's actually not.

Speaker 1 It's it is this sort of people might say, like when I first saw them, like I was really attracted to them, but not like I knew right away. But the two-week first date, there's this intense intention.

Speaker 1 They spend so much time together. I canceled all my plans to be with them.
You know, it was so their lease came up. And yeah, we'd only been together a month, but we decided to move in together.

Speaker 1 Fast, fast, fast, fast, fast. The fastness is also a part of love bombing.
It's an intensity.

Speaker 1 It's what I call an intense indoctrination into another person. They are winning you over.

Speaker 1 When you're being love bombed, you're so distracted by the sharing, by the obsession, by the texting, by the emails, by the gifts, by the quickness that you're not noticing the red flags.

Speaker 2 So what do you do if you're a friend?

Speaker 2 Because I think oftentimes, you know, if you see this happening to a friend or you as the friend on the outside start to have the red flags go up and you say something to your friend, you know, maybe you guys should take it, take it a a little easier.

Speaker 1 Or, you know,

Speaker 2 I hear he wasn't that great with his last girlfriend. Or like, you just try to, like, how do you approach it if you're the friend?

Speaker 1 Don't drop a dime on the other person because the minute you try to drop a dime, it's like, ah, I heard they weren't great with their other person. He's moving real fast.
This is,

Speaker 1 it's something we learned from doing treatment with substance users is do not make them defend their behavior. And don't make them defend the narcissist.

Speaker 1 The minute you say he wasn't great with his former partner, yeah, have you ever met his former partner?

Speaker 1 And and now they're defending them never do that you got to find the back door so how do you find the back door you say things

Speaker 1 you say how how talk talk to me about your new relationship how are you feeling how you doing and they'll tell you the story wow that's a lot happening how do you feel about that you might be more likely for them say yeah you know it is a lot like i'm trying to go with it because i've always felt like i don't deserve a fairy tale now i'm getting the fairy tale and say but feels fairy tale-ish about that to you you're trying to get them to talk without getting them to defend the narcissistic person.

Speaker 1 Listen, I'm basically trying right now to train people to use therapy tricks here, right? But that's really what it is. Cause I think we're so quick to say, I don't like them.

Speaker 1 The first thing they're going to do is defend them. You've got to get them to talk about the relationship so they start spilling on like, oh, I don't know about this.

Speaker 1 What do you mean you don't know about this? And let them talk and say, well, if you're feeling like that, do you think there's, you know, like, do you feel okay?

Speaker 1 Maybe, I don't know, like, take a step back. Like, you, you can do that because you, it sounds like this person cares about you so much.

Speaker 1 And I mean, that's, that's a little manipulative, but if you're trying to save someone,

Speaker 1 to try all the tricks.

Speaker 1 But what you're trying to do is give them permission, maybe, to slow down, to pull back, or like saying, ah, he wants to move in right away and say, hmm, you love having your own place.

Speaker 1 So how, how do you feel about that? Get them to talk about the thing that they value, which is the having their own place, versus what kind of fool wants to move into your apartment in a month. Right.

Speaker 2 Right. I got it.
That's very, very clear. So if you're spotting this, just get them to talk.
Open-ended questions. Do not say anything that makes them defend.

Speaker 2 So interesting. I can look backwards now and see as a parent.
Several mistakes that I made.

Speaker 1 Because as parents too, Mel, we're so quick in there to want to protect our kids. I think nowhere else do we see that reactive like, bad, bad, bad.

Speaker 1 And it's, it's, you know, it's almost like you can feel the clenching in yourself of saying, well, talk to me about this friendship. And inside you're like, leave them.

Speaker 1 I hope you never talk to them again.

Speaker 1 You know, but you can't because everybody,

Speaker 1 when they're ambivalent about something and we raise the thing that they're ambivalent about as being bad,

Speaker 1 their reactive response is to defend that thing because they're ambivalent.

Speaker 2 It makes a lot of sense. And, you know, it seems like you can't talk about narcissism, particularly in the dating world, without the term gaslighting coming up.
So, Dr.

Speaker 2 Romney, I want you to explain what gaslighting is when we come back.

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Speaker 1 So Dr.

Speaker 2 Romani, can you explain what gaslighting is?

Speaker 1 So gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse. It's a form of manipulation.
But

Speaker 1 it is a

Speaker 1 doubting of reality.

Speaker 1 followed up with a making someone feel impaired. And

Speaker 1 so it's not just lying, right? It's not like, I

Speaker 1 didn't move the checkbook. That's a lie.
Okay, they did move the checkbook. It's not, that never happened.
That's a lie. It did, all right? So that up to the first part of gaslighting is lying.

Speaker 1 It's the second part of it that makes it gaslighting, which is the, you say, we'll use a simple example. Did you move the checkbook? I always keep it in this drawer.
Like,

Speaker 1 I, no, I didn't move the checkbook. Are you sure you didn't move the checkbook? It's always in this drawer.
You know what? Your memory has been going lately. This isn't the first time.

Speaker 1 And, you know, you've been so distracted and stressed. In fact, it's affecting our relationship.
Like, have you thought about talking to someone?

Speaker 1 Now it's become a conversation about how you have memory problems and are distracted and stressed out of your mind, but they actually did move the checkbook.

Speaker 2 You know, I had this situation. I can't really go into it in great detail, but dealing with a narcissist in a work relationship where I knew something was up.

Speaker 2 I would say, blah, bity, blah, bity, blah about the issue, and they would lie.

Speaker 2 And then they would point it back, but you've been so busy.

Speaker 1 Correct.

Speaker 2 I handled it. Correct.

Speaker 2 Bing. Over and over.
And then the more the closer I got to the truth, the more I noticed this rage, like this,

Speaker 2 it's, it's, it's in, in the narcissists that I now see that I have dealt with, whether it's in work or in life or relationships or friendships, there's always this moment that I call that, you know, in the Bravo New Jersey, Real Housewives of New Jersey, that famous clip where that woman flips over the table?

Speaker 1 Yes, yes, and I don't even watch it. It's rage.
Yeah, it's rage. Yeah, it's that's a great narcissistic moment.

Speaker 2 So narcissist, narcissistic rage is a thing?

Speaker 1 No, it's absolutely a thing. It is a, because it's a rage that's set off by their thin-skinned reactive sensitivity, right? Something that does not require a table being flipped over.

Speaker 1 I don't know that anything anyone could say to you would be a table being flipped over, right? I mean, short of like, I don't know,

Speaker 1 I killed your best friend. I suppose I might flip a table over at that point.
But short of that, no table flipping and table, these very dramatic, dysregulated gestures.

Speaker 1 And afterwards, they'll soft pedal it or downplay it or give you a pseudo-apology and then just do it again.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 Are there other forms of gaslighting that might surprise us? You know, like there's that sort of like lying and then flipping it back on you. But are there other forms of gaslighting that

Speaker 2 surprise people?

Speaker 1 You know, in some ways,

Speaker 1 there's other things that are gaslighty, like a.

Speaker 1 Like the silent treatment in a way can have a gaslighty feel because you start feeling like you're losing your mind, you know? So that's a great example of sort of a gaslighty behavior.

Speaker 1 At some level, denial can have a gaslighty feel. I mean, again, gaslighting in its purest form is the denial of reality and then telling you there's something wrong with you, right?

Speaker 1 So that's the sequence of it, but it is a,

Speaker 1 but it can take these other kinds of, you know, these other sorts of

Speaker 1 like can't you take a joke? is a great example of gaslighting.

Speaker 2 You're too sensitive. Yeah, you're too sensitive.

Speaker 1 Can't you take a joke is a great example of they insult you. All right.
You have a reaction to that. Like, that was not okay.
That was in front of a group of people. What were you thinking?

Speaker 2 I didn't mean it though.

Speaker 1 I didn't mean, can't you take a joke? So now you're this sort of hypersensitized, hyper-reactive person who can't take something that was allegedly a joke, even though the tone or anything.

Speaker 1 Can't you take a joke? And again, I mean, I think comics do this all the time.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't know, being a comedian relationship is probably a tough because they're probably everything's a joke, right?

Speaker 1 So, um, but it's a uh that that's another great example, something you don't realize is It's a gaslighting.

Speaker 2 Okay, so now we are at the point of the podcast where I feel like we have popped the popcorn and everybody listening is going, oh, God, like I'm spotting narcissists everywhere.

Speaker 2 So let's start to talk about what do you do?

Speaker 1 What do you do?

Speaker 2 And let's start with the example of how do you break up with a narcissist?

Speaker 1 Not every narcissistic relationship ends. Keep this in mind.
I think that should it.

Speaker 1 Listen, if I ran the world, sure, but I don't run the world. And I also know that for some people, they're saying, you know what, I'm not going to divorce my parent.

Speaker 1 There's reasons of culture, reasons of other people in my family that matter to me,

Speaker 1 my own sense of duty and obligation and responsibility. I see them clearly now though, and I'm going to interact with them differently, but I'm not going to end all contact with them.

Speaker 1 There are many people, I'd say 50% of people in narcissistic marriages stay in long-term committed relationships, stay. And I understand that.
And I don't think that there should be a pressure to go.

Speaker 1 Cause when there's that pressure to go, what I see is a lost opportunity to help that person heal and grow, even while they stay in it.

Speaker 2 So by the person heal and grow, you're talking about the person who's in the relationship, because as we learn, you can't change the weather in Chicago and you cannot change.

Speaker 1 We're not changing the narcissist. That's what I validate.

Speaker 2 Well, and it's important for everybody to hear this because you are listening to the world's leading expert on this who has had a clinical practice, who has been an academic, who is sought after by everybody on this topic.

Speaker 2 you have been in clinical settings treating narcissists who have come in looking for help because it now serves them, because the board of directors is now getting ready to fire them, or their spouse is ready to divorce them.

Speaker 1 Or they genuinely feel that everyone's out to get them.

Speaker 1 I mean, remember, narcissistic people are very victimized. If things aren't going their way, everyone's out to get me.
I have a target on my back. Witch hunt, which hundred, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 How come everyone's out to get me? How come life's so unfair to me? Yep.

Speaker 2 Yep. And if you are in

Speaker 2 a clinical setting and you are working with a narcissist who is self-motivated to try to change,

Speaker 2 how much can they change?

Speaker 1 It's a great question. So I've worked with many clients like this.

Speaker 1 You're going to get the best we can hope for.

Speaker 1 is a little bit more accountability.

Speaker 1 They'll still have rage, but they might catch it and apologize a little bit more.

Speaker 1 They are still going to roll their eyes when they don't want to listen to someone, but they'll maybe do it less.

Speaker 1 They'll huff and puff when they're made to wait in the line at the airport, but they won't scream at the gate agent.

Speaker 1 They can sprint through some stuff. You can get them to sprint through some stuff, but they're never going to be marathoners.
They're still going to drop the ball a lot.

Speaker 1 I've worked with people who, once they learned what it meant to stop being this way, which meant empathy, listening to people, being present, holding space for them, being accountable for their bad behavior,

Speaker 1 not getting angry at people or sharing their feelings. I had one person say to me, this is what this is about.

Speaker 1 And I said,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 we said, I want to break in therapy for a little while. And in that period of time, he divorced his wife and broke up with his mistress.
And I said, oh, and he's like, you know what?

Speaker 1 And this is, he said, I don't want to hurt these people. I really don't want to hurt people, but I can see they're getting hurt.
And you've clearly pointed that out in here that I am hurting them.

Speaker 1 Because I would say that that's, I mean, how do you think they felt? We did a lot of what's called mentalization work, forcing the person to think about how do you think that other person feels.

Speaker 1 And in a therapy room, if they scream at me, I'd be like, bye, out. You're not my client anymore.
So they, um,

Speaker 1 they, he said, I don't want to hurt them, but I don't want to listen to them. I'm not interested in their BS.
I'm not interested in their feelings.

Speaker 1 Like, I could do it for 10 minutes, but this hours thing, no.

Speaker 1 I want to live in my own place.

Speaker 1 And I don't miss sex. So I found someone and I pay her every two weeks.
And she comes by, and I don't want her to wake up next to me.

Speaker 1 And sounds like a real peach. Okay, but was.
You know what? I'd say kind of a peach. I wasn't mad at him.

Speaker 1 He, His ex-wife can now go and find, is no longer chased. You may still wonder.

Speaker 2 So what if you do if you're the ex-wife? Because I think one of the other things that I've learned from you is that the damage that a narcissist does.

Speaker 1 She's got to go do her work now.

Speaker 1 And what is that work? That work is learning about narcissism,

Speaker 1 understanding you're not to blame.

Speaker 1 It's almost like

Speaker 1 a person is going to be less frustrated by their car breaking down if they know how their car works.

Speaker 1 Right. So now you're like, oh, this mechanic's taking advantage of me.
I'm like, nah, now you know how to change your own carburetor. Like, I'm teaching you how to

Speaker 1 fix this thing.

Speaker 1 Okay. And the fix is not in them.
It's in you. Because remember, you ain't changing the weather in Chicago.
You're not changing weather in Chicago.

Speaker 2 And ultimately, the person that you treated that would do these very intense visualization exercises to try to understand empathy.

Speaker 2 The only thing that happened is that he gained the knowledge to go, I'm not doing that.

Speaker 1 And here's the the thing, though, that to me is a form of empathy because I'll tell you this. Instead of saying, well, she needs to step up, she needs to meet me where I'm at.

Speaker 1 He's like, I don't want to hurt these people. And I am going to keep hurting them because if you think I'm going to sit here and listen to their BS feelings without rolling my eyes, you're high.

Speaker 2 So Dr. Romani, you have really helped me because there were kind of Some major takeaways that I've learned from you.

Speaker 2 One being that you don't change the weather weather in Chicago, you're not changing the behavior of a narcissist or the brain of one, period. Second, that narcissists are made during childhood.

Speaker 2 They're not necessarily born that way.

Speaker 1 They're not. They're definitely not born that way.

Speaker 2 The third thing is that if it's truly somebody with a narcissistic personality, they don't even know they're doing it. It's not like it is a conscious behavior.

Speaker 2 It is so ingrained in how they behave that it's it's like a reaction to situations. Correct.

Speaker 1 But this takes, this is an important flip I need to make on that because people say, well, if they don't know, then I can't be mad at them. To which I say, yes, you can.

Speaker 1 We recently had a YouTube video. Basically, it's that multiple things can be true.

Speaker 1 And nowhere is that more true than in a narcissistic relationship. This person had a tough childhood.
Yep.

Speaker 1 This person invalidates me every day. Yep.

Speaker 1 We have kids together. Yep.
they're not going to stop doing this. Yep.
You see what I'm saying? Like, yes, all those things can be true at the same time.

Speaker 2 What is the most important truth for somebody that is listening right now, who realizes, oh my God, I'm in a relationship with a narcissist. What is the most important truth that you want that person

Speaker 2 to start to think about and embrace?

Speaker 1 This is not your fault.

Speaker 1 You're not responsible for somebody else's behavior. You're not.

Speaker 1 You're not even, at some level, maybe we could say that about our children's behavior to a point, but even there's a point that that goes away, right?

Speaker 1 You are not responsible for the, well, they're reacting to me. No, they're reacting.
And there's other ways to react.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 they could calmly say to you,

Speaker 1 I don't like how you're talking to me and I need a minute. Can teach them those things.
They can go to therapy and learn that, but they feel entitled to their reactions.

Speaker 1 They feel entitled to their rage. This is how I react.
This is who I am. And that's the other thing you'll hear.
Authentically, this is who I am.

Speaker 1 To which I want people to say, then maybe that doesn't work for you.

Speaker 1 And listen, Mal, there's many a person out there who waits till their youngest child turns 18 and that's the day they file for divorce. Yep.

Speaker 2 Wow. You know, the other thing that I learned from you today that was just a game changer was when you said you are trained to believe that

Speaker 2 doing something that a narcissist doesn't like is wrong.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 That's where the guilt comes.

Speaker 1 That's where it comes from. from.

Speaker 2 That you learned guilt because somebody made you believe that it's wrong to disappoint them. Correct.

Speaker 1 Correct. And because you learn that, you learn that as a child.
That is one of those things that gets indoctrinated in childhood.

Speaker 1 And then you carry that into any relationship where there feels like there's a power difference or somebody is more dominant.

Speaker 1 And that's why people like this will repeat these cycles at work, repeat them in intimate relationships. And even

Speaker 2 if your boss is narcissists, like they're constantly raging at you, they're, you know, they're, they're unpredictable. They take credit for everything.
How do you handle that situation?

Speaker 2 Here's the thing.

Speaker 1 Workplace situations are interesting because, you know, it's, I understand people need jobs. And sometimes people say, I am never going to find a job that pays me this much.

Speaker 1 Like I'm making, and I'm my primary breadwinner in my situation. Then we go back to that radical acceptance.
You are in a job where you're going to be raged at.

Speaker 1 In the workplace, I say to people, you got to document the hell out of this. You got to make sure you don't take meetings alone.

Speaker 1 You save every email, you save every voicemail, you save every text message, because if you ever need to engage in any kind of HR or litigation, you're going to need that.

Speaker 1 It's impossible to push on workplace issues without that. And even then,

Speaker 1 workplace bullying isn't against the law. It's not.
And so it's really, really hard to do that much with it.

Speaker 2 When you say radical acceptance,

Speaker 2 What exactly does that mean? So you're in a situation, because I saw this early in my career, I was a lawyer. I was a public defender first.

Speaker 2 And then when we moved to Boston, I worked in a large law firm. And the amount of yelling that came out of partners' offices

Speaker 2 and the shaming and the like just demeaning way that people were spoken to and yelled at during the hallway. And it was tolerated because that dude brought a lot of money into the firm.

Speaker 1 It's what I call the golden goose phenomenon.

Speaker 1 And it's why, in a workplace, if you recognize the golden goose phenomenon as a play, meaning that there's no way the people higher up in the leadership are going to remove this rager because they're bringing in too much money.

Speaker 1 nobody kills the golden goose yeah then you have to ask yourself where do i fit into this i mean in most cases mal i had to say that the only pos the only good ending to it either if you're lucky and this is luck when that narcissistic manager boss or person is removed usually because institutional organizational settings kind of stink from the head down like there's a culture that was right that was sort of fostered same thing

Speaker 1 yeah it's very unlikely that that will happen but sometimes people get lucky in their one division that happens happens but if that doesn't happen most people need to ultimately leave yes it can be a huge career change people will say i'm out i cannot work like this some people might modify what they do they'll say you know what i am going to not make i'm going to take a huge financial risk and i'm going to put out my legal shingle and i'm going to open a small small practice there's way too many companies and jobs out there tolerate that bullshit i agree i agree and it's taken years off they it's in fact workplace this kind of workplace antagonism is a unique kind of stress that has actually actually been found to be quite associated with physical health problems.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of that is because for some reason, workplace narcissistic abuse keeps people up at night.

Speaker 1 And I think it's because you come home, you're exhausted, and then you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, I can't, what am I? You know, I'm going to get in trouble.

Speaker 1 Ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate. And that goes on day after day after day.

Speaker 1 I mean, these are bosses who have no problem calling, you know, interrupting a person on their vacation, saying, get in here now. And

Speaker 1 you're having to clean up their mistakes. Like you said, they take credit for your work.
They gaslight. These are environments of fear.

Speaker 1 It's very triangulated where some people trying to get on the good side of the narcissistic person. I mean, it's chaos.
It's chaos. And I have never seen anyone successfully pull it off.

Speaker 1 You'll even see in some of the higher profile Me Too narcissism scandals we've seen, people are like, I just want to work on one film that gets an Oscar and that's going to help my career.

Speaker 1 But you know what? You have to live with the moral injury for the rest of your life that you were part of that machine.

Speaker 2 And you're not going to change the weather weather in Chicago.

Speaker 1 You're not going to change the weather in Chicago, and you're also going to have to live with this blood on your hands, which is a different level that people in workplace settings will sometimes say, This is what I worked in, and what does that make me?

Speaker 2 Okay, when we come back, Dr. Romani, I know you have amazing tools that anybody can use when they're dealing with a narcissist.
My personal favorite has to do with gray rocks.

Speaker 2 If you want to know what that means, you're going to have to stick around after this short break.

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Speaker 2 So I want to end with some tools that people can use. So one of the ones that you talk about that

Speaker 2 whenever I share it, I obviously credit you that people just love this. And that's Gray Rock.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So Gray Rocking and that, you know, I can't even take credit from that.
Gray rocking is something that's been around for a long time.

Speaker 1 And gray rocking is gray rocking is a response to the constant baiting that happens in a narcissistic relationship. Narcissistic people love to fight because it makes you look crazy, right?

Speaker 1 If you're getting frothed up, ah, now you're raging kind of like them and they're like, oh, you need to calm down. That's a form of gaslighting too.

Speaker 1 They get you worked up and then they look at you like you're the one who's unhinged. So the way in some ways to bring down that baiting is just completely disengage in the most absolute,

Speaker 1 you're not going no contact, but you're saying, yes, no,

Speaker 1 okay,

Speaker 1 I didn't know that, sure.

Speaker 1 Now.

Speaker 2 Now, let me ask you a question about this.

Speaker 2 Because in our family, somebody has had a situation where there was an ex

Speaker 1 blowing

Speaker 2 up their phone and Snapchat. Rage, rage, rage, rage, rage, which once I learned that this was happening,

Speaker 2 a lot of other young women chimed in.

Speaker 1 Oh, well, I've had somebody do that.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it's been dismissed because they're drunk or because they're this or because they're upset or because I'm the ex or because I'm dating somebody new.

Speaker 2 And, you know, we're talking 75 texts over the course of one evening. Pick up your phone.
Why aren't you? I know you're ignoring. That's abuse.

Speaker 1 That's abuse.

Speaker 2 So.

Speaker 2 When it comes to that,

Speaker 1 do you, you don't respond at all?

Speaker 2 Because aren't they looking for the response? Aren't they seeking the attention?

Speaker 1 Now, you can see in a situation like this with gray rocking, like you, you're like, okay, I'm not responding to this kind of stuff. The behavior is going to escalate for a while.

Speaker 1 And that escalation scares people.

Speaker 1 So the gray, and gray rocking is, it's, if you're going to gray rock as an, as an pathway to an exit, to what's ultimately called no contact, which is a really, really

Speaker 1 stringent characteristic that a lot of people can't follow because they're in families,

Speaker 1 they have to co-parent all those things, you know, whatever it may be. Full no contact is when people do it, they're like, this is great.
Like, I never have to have anything to do with them again.

Speaker 1 But it's not always possible. So the gray rocking will initially enrage the narcissistic person.
If you can white knuckle it for long enough. How long?

Speaker 2 This is an excellent, excellent example for those of you that are in a contentious divorce, for those of you that are dealing with child custody issues.

Speaker 2 And so you have to negotiate a co-divorce drop-offs or exes.

Speaker 2 And so pay attention to this because you are correct. If you ignore them, they explode because they want your attention.
Right. And so now they're going to escalate it to try to get it.

Speaker 1 So now here's, this is where

Speaker 1 a friend and colleague of mine developed something called Yellow Rock. Tina Swithen, who does amazing work in the space of contentious narcissistic divorce, she came up with Yellow Rock.

Speaker 1 And the idea of Yellow Rock is not so much the yes, no, like you're almost like so dull, but it's like, yeah, sure. Oh, okay.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Great. There's emotion.
There's lilts.

Speaker 1 There might even be like, oh, you went there? Oh, did you like that? Oh, that's that new grocery store, right? You're not talking about anything. But Yellow Rock isn't so dire.

Speaker 1 Now, in your obsessive texting example, that's a different kind of a situation because that's a case where you just don't respond. Correct.
And you save it all.

Speaker 1 And if it continues like that, you actually might even need to involve law enforcement.

Speaker 2 We involved Chris, my husband. He sent a text back saying, we'll involve law enforcement.

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 So it worked. Yeah, it works.

Speaker 1 In many cases, but in some cases, it does not. And there's actually a threshold of the number of communications that have to happen for it to qualify to get law enforcement involved.

Speaker 1 You know, so it can't be 10 or 20. I mean, it's such a vast number.
They're like, oh, so for me to be fully traumatized is the only reason, only way law enforcement will respond. And it's true.

Speaker 1 Those bars are set in a way that it's hard to intervene. But in ordinary situations, where it is a lot of the they're trying, where were you on Saturday night? What were you doing?

Speaker 1 Oh, your friend coming over and say, oh, yeah, everything's fine. Like you're, it's very stepfordy, like,

Speaker 1 but for kids to see gray rocking parents actually is quite traumatizing. That devoid of emotion, robotic feel is unsettling.
For kids, it can be unsettling in the workplace.

Speaker 1 So, with yellow rocking, I always say to people, have a list of inert, innocuous topics to talk about. The weather, the freeway is going to be closed on Friday.
It's,

Speaker 1 you know, it's, can you believe it's only a month till this holiday? Like you, you have those topics in your back pocket. And then there can be a lot of that.

Speaker 1 And once they start baiting, then the next technique I recommend people use after gray or yellow rocking is I tell them, don't go deep.

Speaker 1 And don't go deep means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize.

Speaker 2 Oh, that was an acronym, everybody. Yeah, deep.
Don't defend, don't explain, don't engage. Engage.
Don't personalize. What does don't personalize mean? So can you give us an example of how it works?

Speaker 1 So a person's coming at you with like, oh, great, great, yeah, I can see, oh, what is this? One of your loser friends having one of their stupid fundraisings for one more of their causes?

Speaker 1 Like, yeah, your friend's like an idiot loser. So sure, yeah, uh-huh.
Well,

Speaker 1 let's give this person more money. You know, I don't even know why you're friends with these people.
Like, is that how pathetic? So you're,

Speaker 1 the noise, they come at you trying to isolate you, right?

Speaker 1 You don't defend your friends. You don't say, oh, she means so well.
She's raised so much money for this community.

Speaker 1 You don't explain what the charity does.

Speaker 1 You don't engage in the back and forth.

Speaker 1 And you don't make it about you. This has nothing to do with you.
That has to do with their insecurity.

Speaker 2 Their temperature.

Speaker 1 Their tantrum, their insecurity, they're being set off.

Speaker 1 And you, you, this is where it's, this is a hard one. People say,

Speaker 1 I told Mary I was going. I RSVP'd.
I'm going to be going. Do you say, I'm sorry? No, why would you? What did you

Speaker 1 say?

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 Girl, if I could set up an app

Speaker 1 that could identify. I think you should just shock me.

Speaker 1 Oh, my Lord. Lord.
That every time a person says, I'm sorry, they did get like a little shock through their watch.

Speaker 1 That is the worst thing you could say to a narcissist.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 No, it's the worst thing you could say for yourself. Why are you apologizing? We're back to the guilt.

Speaker 2 Because I have been conditioned to believe that if I do something that makes you mad or disappointed or isn't what you want, that I'm bad.

Speaker 1 That's you. That's a you thing.
That's your work. Because, oh my gosh.
I'm going to Mary's fundraiser.

Speaker 1 I am going to Mary's fundraiser.

Speaker 1 Why should I say I'm sorry? I RSVP'd four weeks ago. I am not getting into Mary's character assassination because you feel threatened.
I'm none of that. You're just, I RSVP'd a month ago.

Speaker 1 I'm planning on going. I'll be leaving at seven.

Speaker 1 Done. You do it with a smile on your face.
I tell you, I just sit here and think, why

Speaker 1 on earth?

Speaker 2 Would you put up with that in your life?

Speaker 2 Maybe I'm combative. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Maybe I'm combative. And I'm like, listen, asshole, I make my own money and I'm going to give it to whoever the fuck I want.

Speaker 1 It's the good days and the bad days because you actually had a really nice dinner out on Saturday night.

Speaker 2 And they had a bad day today and they're stressed out and they had a lot of childhood trouble.

Speaker 1 And relationships are hard and everything's compromised and they don't really mean it and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So if you could break,

Speaker 1 get into the multiple truths, break out. Oh, yeah, there's multiple truths today.

Speaker 2 I can't be judging.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. I'm married to a person who's an asshole.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was just about to say deeply insecure and reactive, which is code for asshole. See, asshole is the one tidy word that gets at that.
But I am married to a deeply insecure person who is a rager.

Speaker 1 That is who I'm married to. That is a truth.

Speaker 1 And say that sentence out loud.

Speaker 1 It all relates to a concept called cognitive dissonance. We don't like it when incompatible things are happening.
That's true. So to break the tension, we justify.

Speaker 2 That's true. So it's like the truth,

Speaker 2 the things that are true are: I am married to somebody who is an insecure jerk, right? Because of childhood drama, whatever, and

Speaker 2 rages. I also have children with this person.

Speaker 2 I also don't want to go through the nightmare of divorcing this person. I'm going to work on my own stuff

Speaker 2 in order to have that. cognitive psychological dissonance in order to figure out my own stuff.

Speaker 1 But you can see after you do all that, you know how people feel? They feel sad. They're like, this is my life.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Because once you actually wake up and do the work,

Speaker 1 you just did a Trojan horse.

Speaker 2 We want you to go to therapy so you become more confident and more self-aware that you actually do not deserve this. This is not your fault.
The weather in Chicago is something you can't change.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 2 sneaky. I like that.

Speaker 2 I like that kind of personal empowerment.

Speaker 1 Therapy is always about finding those back doors and you can't walk in the front door. That's how we learned that in day one of therapy class.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's amazing. Wow.
You are so smart.

Speaker 2 You are so smart. So one takeaway or like a cut, what takeaways do you want

Speaker 2 people to like really talking to somebody who just had a wake-up call?

Speaker 2 Because we also learned that if you truly are somebody that has a narcissistic personality, you're thinking that none of this applies to you.

Speaker 2 But if you're listening and you're starting to think of people in your life, whether it's at work or friendships or siblings or the person that you're in a relationship with or parents or grandparents.

Speaker 2 What are some of the key takeaways that you hope people have gained

Speaker 1 from this, doctor?

Speaker 1 You're not to blame for someone else's personality.

Speaker 1 You can't change them.

Speaker 1 You have the right to

Speaker 1 you have the right to your independent, autonomous life, separate from other people, opinions, feelings, needs.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 above all else, I want to let people know that there are many people out there who hear this and say, well, I got to go. I got to leave this relationship.
And some people do.

Speaker 1 They end contact or really suspend contact with a family member or even a parent.

Speaker 1 They may end a romantic relationship. They may start doubting their own marriage.
They may even consider quitting a job or whatever.

Speaker 1 But then they start saying, but I want to go back, but I missed the person, but I'm having second thoughts, but we're getting back together. But I showed up at the family wedding anyhow.

Speaker 1 And what I tell people is, this isn't about an all or nothing, and you will be pulled back because there's no talking your way out of a trauma bond. A trauma bond is something you feel.

Speaker 1 Some people will say, the idea of no longer talking to my mom or no longer being this marriage, I feel sick. Like, I can't do this.
I literally feel sick inside of me.

Speaker 1 So that's a real physical feeling. And it's it's understanding that these incompatibilities leave us feeling uncomfortable.
We do get pulled back in.

Speaker 1 It's for me to keep saying to people,

Speaker 1 this is not going to change and it is not your fault and it is all internal to them and this is what the apparatus looks like.

Speaker 1 But even on those days when you feel sad, because this is a landscape characterized by grief.

Speaker 1 This was my childhood. I never got to have a real childhood.
I didn't ever let my my dreams launch. I got into a crappy marriage.
I may never have a normal adult relationship. I screwed up my kids.

Speaker 1 This is real grief. There's no soft pedalings.
You don't get a do-over on this stuff. And so for people, some of these negative emotions do echo through a lifetime.

Speaker 1 And it's not, I wish I could sit here and say something fluffy like, and one day you'll never think about this again.

Speaker 1 What I want to tell people is that you're going to learn to coexist with that pain and you're slowly going to find your voice and it's almost like if you had a really bad accident or injury every even if you could fully do your physical therapy and heal every so often you're going to step on that leg the wrong way you're going to be like ouch and you're reminded and it is a it doesn't all just go away you start learning the workarounds and you understand that there's going to be good days and bad days because I think setting an overly sunny kind of a pathboard for healing can lead people who feel like they're not healing fast enough, feeling ashamed and as though they can't even heal, right?

Speaker 1 There is no healing, right? This will take as long as it takes.

Speaker 1 There will be good days and bad, but if you're willing to give yourself permission to take yourself and reality back, there actually is a path forward.

Speaker 1 And survivors of narcissistic abuse often go on to do amazing things.

Speaker 1 They write amazing things.

Speaker 1 There's a creativity and it's almost like a

Speaker 1 WTF of it all. Like, all right, you know, at this point, why not? Like, I survived this mess.
Why not? And they'll do some really cool, fun.

Speaker 1 They'll blog. They'll, they'll self-publish books.
They'll start businesses.

Speaker 1 They'll go back to school. I remember one woman I worked with.
She's like, I went back to school.

Speaker 1 I was 75 when I graduated, but I finally finished college after being told I was a moron, a fool, an ass for 50 years. And she's like, I'm not going to work, but I did it.

Speaker 1 And the pride that was felt, the survivor stories are remarkable. they're small they're big it's the person my favorite was the person who said she

Speaker 1 she her she was amazing she's an amazing cook and her malignant narcissistic marriage many many years she baked his favorite cake and she um gave it to people who were um homeless in her neighborhood and she's like eat this because i've never eaten this kind of cake and they loved it and so you know some people actually said i actually cooked their favorite meal and threw it out some people don't like to throw out food i get that um some people had a big blowout party on the night of what would have been their malignant narcissistic ex's birthday party and said, I got to put this behind me.

Speaker 1 This can take so many forms. Some people go back to school and become therapists.
Some people become coaches.

Speaker 1 You know what I love about this, Dr.

Speaker 2 Romani, is that like. When you understand something and there is this intense fascination with narcissism, and so many of us have experiences with it.

Speaker 2 But when you understand it and when you have a few simple tools from an expert like you, it does become an opportunity for growth.

Speaker 2 It becomes an opportunity for self-awareness, for self-compassion, that just because the weather in Chicago can't be changed and you can't change what that other person is doing, that multiple things can be true.

Speaker 2 But the thing that we know is always true is that if you're willing to put in the work, you can make the situation that you're in better for yourself.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Because you can change the way that you show show up. You can change the boundaries that you have.
You can change the way that you internalize things or not.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And people who are going through these relationships are sometimes thinking, I almost don't want to be happy because it's such a contrast to what I'm in in this relationship.

Speaker 1 So it's almost, it's a sense of, okay, maybe I'll just gonna, I'm gonna,

Speaker 1 I'm not gonna take care of me because me not taking care of me fits. It's again, that making it all fit.
I say, find those ways because I call them these tiny acts of rebellion.

Speaker 1 The way you squeeze in, because if you exercise and they know about it, like, oh, why are you wasting time? You must have a lot of leisure time if you can exercise.

Speaker 1 But then you realize, like, oh, I have 18 minutes before they get home. And you jump on the treadmill or you throw on the yoga channel on your whatever YouTube you watch and you, you do it.

Speaker 1 Like you find these tiny acts of rebellion that you could do. You, every day, you have a goal, and each day for 365 days, you do one thing towards the goal.

Speaker 1 And maybe you finish that degree online and here's the win. Never ever tell the narcissistic person your dreams.

Speaker 1 Never ever tell them your aspirations because they will mock you and they will dismantle you and they will even try to get in the way of them.

Speaker 1 The rebellion is to go and pursue those dreams without them ever knowing. And once you've done it, you've done it.
You don't even have to share it.

Speaker 1 And what's really fun to watch is when the narcissist hears from someone else like, wow, did you hear about that whole thing they set up? And the person like, why didn't you tell me?

Speaker 1 And you're like, oh, it didn't seem like that big a deal. And

Speaker 1 you just get it in there, but never share your dreams with them. Wow.

Speaker 2 I'm thinking about this moment in a speech where I was in the audience and it was a women's conference.

Speaker 2 And this woman stood up and she was talking about how she had this massive dream of getting this degree online and that her husband wouldn't allow it.

Speaker 2 And I remember thinking

Speaker 2 how sad it was to realize that she was trapped in this life.

Speaker 2 And, you know, the thing that I want to say is that these tiny acts of rebellion,

Speaker 2 if you feel like you're trapped in this and there's multiple things that are true, these tiny 18-minute moments of rebellion are almost like digging a tunnel. They are.

Speaker 2 That allow you over time to escape because every time you do something that is for you first,

Speaker 2 and you don't feel the need to share it or get permission and you keep showing up every day and you do that exercise or you do that meditation or you take that online class and you don't seek the permission or validation from that narcissist, if you start to exercise that muscle,

Speaker 2 at some point you're going to wake up and you're going to realize, oh my God. I'm actually above ground and outside the jail.

Speaker 1 Why did I stay in there?

Speaker 2 Okay, I'm not going to validate myself, but I'm ready to make a big change now.

Speaker 1 You start to see, I can do stuff.

Speaker 1 By doing those tiny acts of rebellion, there's something in you that gets awoke and you're like, I can do stuff. And maybe I am strong enough to do this or to do that.
You meet other people.

Speaker 1 You get validated in different ways. You get the A on the paper.
And the professor says, wow, like, why aren't you going to graduate school?

Speaker 1 After all those years of being invalidated, to have someone say, there's something special about you. Just that one conversation can change the course of somebody's life.

Speaker 1 But that's only going to happen when you do all these tiny acts of rebellion. And that might be one of the most important steps to survivorship.

Speaker 1 This isn't about like storming out and like, I'm leaving you, but you can do all these little things because I know leaving can feel overwhelming for people.

Speaker 1 And whatever that might be, it might be reading an entire set of literature, might be learning another language. You can do that on your own time too.

Speaker 1 But whatever it looks like, that somehow getting that new skill, actualizing that dream and not letting them know about it or harm it.

Speaker 1 It can awaken something in you, the real you, that may actually allow you to start really distancing from this relationship, if not physically, definitely psychologically.

Speaker 2 I just also like felt really empowered because I realized that's also something that we can do as friends and sisters and siblings and seeing other people that are in these situations, validating somebody, you know, not being, not doing the thing that I probably would have done in the past, which is, why don't you leave him?

Speaker 1 Like, why don't you cut him off?

Speaker 2 Like just validating the small moves of independence and rebellion that somebody's making and being uh being somebody who is an ally in that is a way that you can support someone oh thank you mal i can't believe i learned even more from you today that's that's that's the idea and what i love about what i learned today

Speaker 1 is that it will help me with the healing part of this yes that's the key because you know what listen i am telling you now i am amazed at how many survivors i meet and i wish my students when i taught at the university could have given me as good a rundown like they're giving me, like, they get this.

Speaker 1 So I'm like, okay, you get this. Now, like you said, even if I get it, that's not enough.
I still feel guilty. I still feel pulled two ways.
I still feel the sick inside.

Speaker 1 The healing is about being compassionate, if you will, with that sick you feel inside, but slowly giving yourself permission to little by little disconnect.

Speaker 1 You're not going to do it all at once, but month by month, we're guiding people just step back, little by little.

Speaker 1 Sometimes it's two steps forward, I mean, three steps forward, two steps back, but at least that's one step up. And it's a process.

Speaker 1 As a survivor myself, more days than not, I feel good, but there are moments I don't. And I feel like I have no right to even be talking to people about this.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, oh, maybe because I say that, I do have every right to talk to people about this.

Speaker 1 And it's a, you know, this is a journey into not only humility, but it's about seeing yourself and recognizing this is an issue that's affecting everyone in the world. This is a global issue.

Speaker 1 We are making narcissists our heroes. They get all of our attention.
They suck all the oxygen out of the world.

Speaker 1 Let's face it, whether it's in celebrity, politics, business, athletics, their bad behavior is the stuff that we are constantly paying attention to. Imagine.

Speaker 1 Imagine paying attention to people who are well-regulated, warm, kind, and compassionate. We often view them as, we often view them through a more, I don't know, like weak lens.

Speaker 1 I actually think they're the strongest people out there. So all you agreeable people, come find me because I do love you, especially you agreeable introverts.
That's my tribe. Oh, man.

Speaker 2 Well, you're in my tribe, too. Thank you.

Speaker 1 I love you.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 1 That was a lot of information.

Speaker 2 I feel like I need to go have a seltzer or Diet Coke or something and just let that soak in. I want to thank you.
Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 2 I hope you got as much out of this episode today with Dr. Romany as I did.
And in case you want more information, I mean, that's what happens when I listen to Dr. Romany.

Speaker 1 I'm like, oh, I want to dig in more.

Speaker 2 There are resources about Dr. Romany and there's resources on narcissism.
Just go to the show notes that are for every single episode, including this one at melrobbins.com. I always got you covered.

Speaker 2 And by the way, if you haven't had a chance to listen to that first conversation that we had with Dr. Romany, it was called The Five Signs You're Dealing with a Narcissist and How to Protect Yourself.

Speaker 2 That one is a couple of weeks ago. Well, you can listen to that and all the episodes of the Mel Robbins podcast on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 2 So please do yourself a favor, go check it out, follow the show. And if you've got something out of today's show, I can't tell you how many people have been writing to me saying I had no idea.

Speaker 2 that I was in a relationship with a narcissist or that my parents were one or this explains everything about my boss or somebody in my life. This is life-changing information.

Speaker 2 So if there's somebody that you know would benefit from this or be interested in it, take a minute and share the episode.

Speaker 2 Because when you do that, you truly give somebody an opportunity to look at their life and to empower themselves in a whole new way.

Speaker 2 Oh, and one more thing. In case no one else tells you, I want to tell you something.
And I want to tell you something no narcissist will tell you.

Speaker 2 I want to tell you that your friend Mel Robbins is here. I'm here for you Mondays and Thursdays, and I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life.

Speaker 2 Now go get out there and do it.

Speaker 2 Stitcher.

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