Your Guide to Better Sex, Intimacy, & Love From a World-Leading Sex Therapist

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. So a little while ago, I saw this video, and in it there was this licensed sex therapist, and she was talking to her husband, and she shared this thing that has had the single biggest impact on my sex life with my husband Chris.
So you want to know what I did? I tracked tracked her down and I invited her on the podcast and she hopped on a plane. She is here in our Boston studios today.
And I'm just going to say right up front, if you're single or if you're in a new relationship, this is a must listen. Because one of the things that you're about to learn is that your entire history, I'm talking every person you've ever been with, and especially your history when you're single, it sets you up for your sex life forever.
And so she's here to address everything that you and I are not talking about and that you've never learned. Today on the Mel Robbins podcast, you and I are going to spend some time together in the bedroom.
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Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so excited that you're here.
I cannot wait for our conversation today, and it's always such an honor to spend time and to be together with you. And if you're a new listener, I just want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
I'm so glad you're here. And because you made the time to hit play and listen to this particular episode, here's what I know.
I first of all know you value your time because you made time and found time to listen to this. And let me tell you something.
This episode is going to deliver the goods because today we're talking about sex and your pleasure, connection, intimacy, fun. It matters.
You deserve to have this part of your life feel satisfying and fun, whether you're single or whether you're in a relationship. And did you know that sex is one of the top three reasons why people get divorced or break up? But that's not going to happen to you because improving your sex life, totally solvable problem.
So if you're not having sex right now, or if you're not having enough, or if it's not pleasurable, or if you'd like to mix things up, but you just don't have a clue how to talk about it or bring it up, first of all, you're not the only one. And what I love about our expert today is that she's even going to tell you this was hard for her to talk about in her life.
And she's been in clinical practice as a licensed sex therapist for over 20 years, and she's been married for 17. See, here's the thing.
None of us have been taught about sex. And more importantly, everything that you and I have seen in the movies or what we think it's supposed to be, wrong.
That's why you and I hint. It's why we fake.
It's why we're tolerating less than we deserve. And the solution, this is the good news, it's right in front of your face.
And wouldn't it be so awesome if it weren't such a chore or embarrassing to talk about? I mean, personally, I've been married for 28 years and even I'm embarrassed to talk about it with my husband, Chris. Just imagine a world where you could be having more of it and enjoy it more.
Well, that's my mission and what's available to you today. So if you're single, just pat yourself on the back because you're about to learn something I wish I knew 35 years ago.
If you're in a new relationship, I know you're probably having more sex than my husband and I are, but what you're going to learn is going to make it even better because licensed sex therapist, New York Times bestselling author, Vanessa Marin is here. And look, I'm going to ask the embarrassing questions.
I'm even going to open up my bedroom and my marriage. Even Chris, my husband, has jumped in with some questions for Vanessa.
I have no idea what they are. I'm going to hear them live when you hear them.
So let me tell you a little bit about Vanessa. Vanessa is a licensed psychotherapist and a sex therapist with over 20 years of clinical practice, helping people have healthier, more satisfying sex lives.
She's known for her work in making sex therapy more accessible. She is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, Sex Talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life.
And she and her husband, Xander, also host the number one rated sexuality podcast called Pillow Talks. You're going to love her.
So let's jump in because I got questions and I know you do too. Vanessa Marin, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be here.
Now, is it normal for people who interview you to feel kind of nervous? Yes. Are you a little bit nervous right now? I'm definitely nervous.
And I suppose it's because I'm one of these people that's a little bit squeamish about sex, which might surprise you as you're listening to me right now. You know, you've hit play on this.
You know what you're in for. This is an adult conversation.
And I'm out there and I share a lot. But when it comes to sex, I'm, I don't know, like maybe a little bit of a prude.
Well, let me say thank you so much for being willing to have these conversations. I think it's really important for us to recognize we are all a little squeamish and embarrassed.
I've been doing this work for two decades and I get a little squeamish and awkward and weird sometimes. You know, we were not born being ashamed of sex.
We were all taught to be.

And I think you're doing a really great service to your community by showing people, look, I can feel awkward and squeamish and weird and still choose to do it anyway. That's true.
Both the sex and talk about it, right? Choose to do it anyway. I think we're going to talk a lot about that.
Could you speak directly to the person that's listening, whether they're in their car or they're sitting at work or they've taken you and I, Vanessa, on a walk and just tell them what might they experience that's different in life if they take everything that you're about to share and I'm about to confess to heart and they apply it? What's going to change in their life? You know, I think so many of us in long-term relationships, if we're really honest with ourselves, we kind of feel like we've been lied to or cheated a little bit. Like we've grown up with this idea of romance and intimacy and this thought of what relationships are supposed to look like.
And a lot of us are in these long-term relationships thinking, this is it? Like this disconnection, this lack of sex, like this is really what relationships are all about. And so I want the listener to know that if you listen to this episode, if you put these techniques and tools into place, you can have the kind of intimacy that you've always wanted.
You can have that intimacy that really leaves you feeling so close to your partner, connected to your partner, close to yourself too. So for the person that's listening that's single, I would also love to have you speak directly to that person because I know that this is also going to be one of those episodes since none of us like talking about sex, that you send it to somebody.
Like if you're single and listening to our conversation today, how might your life change if they take to heart everything that you're about to share and they apply it to their life? It's an incredible opportunity when you're single to learn these skills that you can then bring into your next relationship. Most of the couples that my husband, Xander, and I work with, they've been in relationships 10, 20, 30, 40 years.
And when you're that far into a relationship, starting to untangle some of these dynamics can feel really challenging. And so if you get to prepare yourself before you even get into your next relationship and know, okay, this is what I know about myself.
This is how I'm going to communicate to my partner. This is the kind of partner that I'm looking for.
You're going to be so well prepared to have an extraordinary relationship. What keeps you up at night as a licensed sex therapist? I stay up at night knowing that there are so many couples struggling with their sex lives when the reality is that there are very simple and practical things that we can all do to experience that incredible deep intimacy with each other.
I know sexual issues can feel really big and really complicated when we're in the middle of them, but there really are simple things that we can do to feel closer to each other. It's just the fact that sex is still so taboo to talk about that leaves us feeling stuck, feeling like we're broken, something's wrong with us, and there are no solutions, but there are.
And so why are so many of us feeling disconnected in our sex lives? Because we're feeling disconnected in our relationships too. One of the big mistakes that people make when it comes to sex is we try to compartmentalize it.
We think of sex as, oh, it's just this thing that happens in the bedroom at the end of the night with the doors closed, the lights turned off. But the reality is that the level of connection we feel or don't feel with our partner all throughout the day heavily impacts our desire to be intimate with them at the end of the night.
And the sad reality is most

couples in long-term relationships feel deeply disconnected from each other. You know, we hear the classic phrases, we feel like roommates rather than romantic partners.
We're like two ships passing in the night. And so if you're feeling that level of disconnection in your sex life, it's actually in a funny way, an invitation to take a look at, well, what's going on in the relationship overall? Well, I can relate to that.
I mean, I think that when you have a person that you're in a relationship, and of course, I've been married for 28 years, having the same person be the person that you wake up next to, you grocery shop with, you cook dinner with, you pay bills with, you, if you have kids or you have furry kids that you're taking care of, the logistics around that, that it can become very transactional, like you're doing life together, but you're not actually doing each other. I mean, I love Chris like crazy.
I'm super attracted to him. And as much as I want more sex, I'm like, do I? I'm actually very, very tired.
And so I relate to what you're saying. And what is your advice to me? If I want more sex, but I'm not sure that I want more sex, even though I enjoy the sex tremendously when we have it, but I'm exhausted.
So I want to validate the exhaustion first, because most of us lead lives that are incredibly full, incredibly stressful, and that exhaustion is real, and it definitely gets in the way of us having intimacy. But one of the incredible things about sex is that sex actually gives back to us.
How? When we have sex with our partner, when we feel truly connected with them and truly intimate with each other, sex actually creates more energy, more time, more of a sense of teamwork. When you and your partner are in a good place, and you could probably think of specific examples.
Think of a time when you and Chris were not in a good place. Everything feels like a slog.
Yes. Every little thing that you have to do during the day just stretches out so much further because you're disconnected.
But when you are in a good place, when you feel like you're connecting, you're appreciating each other, you're feeling intimate with each other, you feel like an unstoppable team. Like nothing can get in your way.
Xander and I had a really interesting experience with this a couple of months ago. We were having one of those days.
It was one of those days. There were so many things on our plate.
Everything was spiraling out of control, taking way longer than we thought it was supposed to. And it was probably around five o'clock and we were looking at our to-do list and looking at each other just thinking, there's no way.
There is not enough time left in the day for us to do all of the things that are on this list. And Xander reminds me, he said, you know, we had said earlier this morning that we were going to have sex today.
And my initial reaction was, no, there's no time. We can't even get through all these things.
There's no time for sex. And we started kind of negotiating with the schedule a little bit.
He said, well, what if I, maybe I could do this first and maybe we push this thing off till tomorrow. And he stopped himself in the middle of that and he said, this is ridiculous.
You are more important to me. Intimacy is more important to me than anything on this stupid list.
So screw the list right now. Let's go have sex right now.
I thought he was crazy. My initial reaction was absolutely not.
Are you kidding me? Look at all

the things that we have to do. But that sentence really stuck with me.
You're more important to me. You are more important to me than anything on this list.
And so I said, okay, okay. My mind is screaming no.
We should do all the to-do list stuff, but let me do this. Let's go be intimate.
So we went and had sex.

Yeah. And then magically after that, we killed that list.
We were so in sync with each other. We were a team.
We're dividing and conquering. We got through everything.
It was like magic that had happened. When we had that connection with each other, when we were prioritizing what was actually important, everything else fell into place.
You know, I actually believe you. Good.
Because, no, and I don't mean that in a, like, as a weird statement. It's because I know what you're saying is true.
And, you know, one of the things that happens for me a lot is that every time my husband and I have sex, I always say, that was amazing. I feel so much more connected to you.
Thank God we did that. Why aren't we having more sex? Like, is that a common thing too, where you're just like, I'm too tired, so we're not having sex, but then we have sex and I'm like, why are we not having sex? Yeah.
So what you're starting to talk about is actually the two sex drive types, which I'm super excited to share with you because what you're describing sounds like a classic responsive sex drive type. So what are the two different types of sex drives? So we have spontaneous and responsive.
And where they boil, how we describe them is where we feel desire first. So there are two ways that we get turned on, excited, ready for sex.
Okay. Mentally, like the idea of sex sounds good.
Yeah, I want to have sex. I can handle that.
I am mentally ready to have sex all the time. It's when we cross the bridge to actually doing it that the drawbridge is up.
Interesting. Okay.
So the second place is in our bodies. We have to get physically ready, things like getting wet, getting an erection.
Our bodies are just preparing. So these two types depend on where you feel desire first.
So if you're a spontaneous type, you're going to feel mental desire first. And it might feel like it kind of comes out of nowhere.
You're just going about your day like, huh, the idea of sex sounds good. Where's my partner? Let me find them.
And then your physical arousal follows from that. And that's how most people think sex drive is supposed to work because that's always how we see it on TV and in the movies, right? There's just that like all the characters have to do is make eye contact with each other and then it's game on.
But there's another type which most people don't even realize exists and which research shows the vast majority of women, about 85%, have responsive sex drive. And it's the exact opposite.
We feel arousal and desire in our bodies first and then the mental desire follows. So the classic way of knowing you might be responsive is if you've ever been in the middle of sex or even at the end of sex, and just like you're saying, you catch yourself thinking, huh, this is really fun.
Why don't I seem to want this more often? So most people who have responsive desire will think of themselves as low or no desire because they're not thinking about sex. And if you grab a person with responsive desire on the street and just say, hey, do you want to have sex right now? 99 times out of 100, it's going to be no because I'm not thinking about it.
Right. But it's not that your desire is low or non-existent.
It's just that it operates in a different way. You have to have some physical stimulation first before the idea of sex is going to sound good.
I think you just solved all my problems with my husband because I think my problem is I think about it and I'll text him and be like, we got to have sex tonight. I really miss you.
But there's no follow through on my part. And I think we're both responsive.
That he probably needs to have me start. I need him to start.
We're both exhausted.

Like, is that a common thing? Yeah, yeah. Two people who have responsive desire can often feel

like a standoff. Like you're kind of waiting for the other person.
Like, well, I want you to start.

Well, I want you to start. And you're both not thinking that often about sex.
It's not popping

into your mind that often. You might have the idea of like, we should, it's been a while, but you're not feeling that like, oh, it feels super exciting to me mentally right now.
You know, I told my husband, Chris, that you were coming on and I said, would you like to ask Vanessa a couple questions? And I understand that he has videotaped a couple questions and texted them to you. I do not know what they are.
I'm a little nervous because I feel like I'm about to get blamed for something. But in the interest of both of us getting the advice that we need, I would love to hear my husband's questions and your answers.
All right. First though, I want to ask, why do you think you're going to be blamed for something? What comes up for you around that? Well, I have a feeling that he's going to say I'm all talk, no follow through.
Okay. Because I do want to be having more sex because I do enjoy it, but I'm just tired.
Like I'll always be like, we got to have sex tonight. And he's like, yeah, we got to have sex tonight.
And then he's asleep at 830. And when I crawl into bed at 930, you know, he's like, and I'm like, okay, I'm not waking him up.
Like this is, I'm just going to go to bed and then we'll have sex in the morning. And then he's up at 5.15 and I'm still sleeping.
And so it just feels like I keep saying something, but I'm not doing what I said I wanted. And then the second thing is like, I think it's what you talked about, which is even in a relationship where we've been married for 28 years, and even with a person that I love more than anybody, who I trust more than anybody, I still feel squeamish and uncomfortable talking about either what I want or what he might want that I'm not delivering and kind of hearing that I'm falling short or that he's bored.
And so I think we've been hinting around wanting things to change, but we actually haven't made them change. I appreciate the vulnerability so much.
And you're going to see in just a minute, there's some shared similarities that you and Chris have here. But what you're illustrating is one of the most common dynamics that comes up for couples.
Most of us are really afraid to talk about our sex lives. Even Xander and I struggled to talk about our sex lives for years.
And when we don't talk about it, our brains naturally go to this negative place. Oh, he thinks I'm doing something bad.
He's going to blame me. He's going to call me out.
It's all my fault. And you'll see in a second, like Chris is actually thinking some of the same sorts of things.
I don't know if that's good or bad. All I know is that my husband sent you videos asking some questions and I have no clue what the questions are.

Yeah. So we need to talk about sex more openly in our relationships.
You're making me nervous. Can you play the videos? Because I don't know what he asked.
Let's go to the first video so you don't have to be nervous. They're very sweet videos, I'll tell you that.
Hey, Mel. Thanks for inviting me onto the podcast.
My first question is around the difference between physical touch or sensation versus emotional connection. And either what's more important to you or does one come before the other? and what could I do to improve the physical side or to dial up anything that you might need emotionally so that the table is set? Oh, well, first of all, the dog is in the background, which is adorable.

But I love that he cares. And I guess what I'm getting from this question is that simply talking

about sex with your partner and asking questions about sex makes you feel cared for. Absolutely.

Yeah. And what I hear behind that question is a little bit of worry.
Like, am I doing something that's not good? Can I be doing something that's better? You know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, see, I'm already getting worried. I'm so embarrassed.
I don't know why. It's a vulnerable thing that you're doing.
Well, what I would say to my husband is that once we are physical, it's fantastic. But for me, there is some disconnect around when we're having sex or when we think are the times to have sex because I think we're waiting until the end end of the day, and we're both exhausted.
And so, one thing I'm relieved about, since he's kind enough to be saying, there's emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, and to me, the physical intimacy is on lock. I mean, I'd love to experiment a little bit just to spice things up because I think he would enjoy it.
But I think we're struggling with just the basics of how do we have more sexual experiences in the middle of a crazy busy life? And how do we stop disappointing one another by saying we would love to do this? Like just last week, we probably We talked about wanting to have sex two or three times. He has a freaking sinus infection.
I don't want to get sick. Like he can barely breathe.
So if he's asking me what I need, I don't even know because I feel like when we do connect, and I think a lot of us feel this way, when it finally happens, you're happy. So what would your advice though as a licensed sex therapist be and what do you hear in that question when somebody's saying do you need more emotional intimacy or physical intimacy so let's go to the tactical thing first what I hear you describing is another classic mistake that I see most couples making which is that we leave sex to the very end of of the night.
We just have that idea in our heads like, oh, we're all teeth brushed, all cleaned up, crawling into bed. That's the time for sex.
That is the worst time for sex. By the time you're crawling into bed, you are exhausted.
You're thinking about the next day. You're thinking about the crazy day you just had.
You're doing that mental math in your head of, okay, if I fall asleep in the next five minutes, then I can get this many hours of sleep. That is the worst time to get excited about sex.
So I always encourage couples, try to have sex as early in the evening as you can. Obviously, everybody has different schedules.
We have different things going on, but try to prioritize it as early as you possibly can. So if it's, we're not going to watch TV until we've had sex first.

Maybe it's even, we're going to have sex and then we're going to have dinner.

Or we're going to have dinner, have sex, then we'll come back and clean everything up.

But do it earlier so you actually have the energy to have that intimacy with each other.

What I'm hearing from you, which is interesting because I feel myself also having a little bit of a visceral like, oh God, is this idea of you got to plan it. You're like, yeah, no kidding, Mel.
You have to plan it. Because I think I believe in the myth that it's just supposed to happen, which is clearly not working.
And that's what happens in the beginning of a relationship. When you first, it's brand new, you will literally going to the grocery store is the hottest date on the planet.

And then you're having sex in the backseat of the car, in the parking lot.

Like, those days are over.

I want to challenge you on that, though.

Okay.

If you really think back on it, in the early days of a relationship, so I'll talk about me and Xander.

When we started having sex, and then we're planning dates with each other, we're scheduling sex. Because you're planning dates.
We're planning dates. I would know he'd ask me out on Friday, hey, you want to go hang out on Friday? We'll go to dinner, come back to my place.
We're having sex. That's scheduling sex.
It's not that we've never had to schedule sex before and now we're old and boring and we have to do it. We've been scheduling sex our entire relationship.
We just looked at it differently. I've never heard that before.
Vanessa, I need to take a quick break so we can hear a word from our sponsors. But we've got so much more to jump into.
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It's your buddy Mel Robbins. I am so thrilled that you're here.
Today, you and I are getting to spend time together and learn from licensed sex therapist Vanessa Marin. And we've been digging into the things that you need to know in order to have a more pleasurable and fun and empowering sex life.
So Vanessa, one other question before I get to Chris's second question is, if you have a partner who tells you, I need more emotional intimacy, what does that mean? That's such a great question. And it's something that every person has to think about for themselves.
A lot of us will throw these phrases out to our partner. I want more emotional intimacy.
But what does that mean? The things that could feel emotionally intimate to you, to me, could feel like, I don't like that. That doesn't really work for me.
So we all have to take that time to think about what is it? What are the specific things? And I'm really practical. So I like to think about what are the things that my partner could do on a daily basis? Obviously, if my partner wants to sweep me off on a two-week romantic vacation, yes, I'm going to feel very connected.
But like, what could he do on a Tuesday at 8.30 p.m. to help me feel 10% closer to him? So what are those little things? And that's what I hear from Chris too, is wondering, you know, do you want more emotional intimacy from me? Do you feel close enough to me? And there's also a question in there of what comes first for you? People tend to be divided into roughly two camps.
There are some people who want emotional intimacy before they feel open to physical intimacy. And there are some people who want physical intimacy as a way to help open up more emotional intimacy.
You know, I think you just changed my marriage because when you said, when you were first dating, what is a date? It's a way to schedule sex. We're scheduling those dates.
And it's not even about the dates. It's about creating moments where we have the time and space for intimacy to happen and to plan for it.
Like you said earlier in the evening, I'm like, I need to be doing it before noon. Like, I mean, if it's going to happen, scheduling it late morning is probably the sweet spot.
And the interesting thing, too, like, so think back to those early stages of dating Chris. If he called you and said, hey, do you want to go on a date with me on Saturday? You're not thinking, this guy, we have to schedule it.
Wow, the romance must really be dead if we're having to schedule. No, you're excited.
Like, wow, he wants to spend time with me. He's willing to carve time out of his busy life to make time to be with me.
Like we looked at it in such a positive way. And people get so freaked out by the scheduling sex thing.
I actually say like leave the scheduling sex, that phrase behind because it freaks people out too much. What do we say instead? Let's just think about it as planning for sex.
I like to say intentional intimacy or even just call it a date night if you want to, if you like those feelings of date night. But yeah, we can think of it as a positive thing.
My partner cares about me. They want to spend time with me.
They've got a million things going on, but they're telling me you're important. I want to make sure you and I have that time together.
Well, more importantly, this is how it all started and this is why you were having sex. So why on earth would I be a dummy and not do the same thing I did when we first started dating?

All right, let's look at the next one. So my second question is about just what I can do better or differently at the end of the day to help you turn off your working mind.
I know sometimes it's dinner or hanging out and watching something, but your mind often doesn't turn off all the way into the bedroom and into the bed with or without the phone. And so is there anything that I can do to help alleviate some of that stress or whatever might be running through your mind in order to shift the mood? Oh, I love this question because I know exactly what could be done.
And it's going to sound weird. But one of the things that I really miss is that we don't often cook dinner together anymore because we're empty nesters and there's only two of us and we both work from home.
And so it is so easy to sit at your desk on your laptop and close the laptop at 630 after the last video call and then send a few emails and then stroll into the kitchen. And you're like, what do we have? Cereal again? We're going to put a pizza in the oven again? And so there is some buffering between work and the reestablishing of rituals that for us were very much driven by the fact that kids were home and they were hungry and we had a pattern of sitting down and cooking and then eating as a family that has just evaporated without the kids being there.
And so for me, I know that I could use a lot of help with, if I walked into the kitchen and Chris was already cooking, I wouldn't be on my phone. But since we haven't planned anything, work literally takes over the space and we're both guilty of it.
And so I could see how even, and I mean, this is just opening up so many things we could do. We could start doing the things we used to do when the

kids were home. We could meet on Sunday nights and go, these are the nights we're going to cook

and who's going to take responsibility for being the lead on that night so that we both come down

to something. I think it's an excellent question because it goes back to what you're talking about,

which is intentional intimacy and even the act of deciding that we're cooking dinner tonight together. That's intentional.
Yeah. Well, you're saying it goes back to what I was saying at the very beginning of this interview.
The things that we need to fix intimacy in our relationship are so simple. And a lot of us know what they are already.
We're just not doing them. You know that you feel really connected to him when you do those things.
And it's not that difficult to do it. It's just getting ourselves to do them again.
Well, it's like everything I talk about on this podcast, which is we all know this. Yeah.
But you have to be reminded. We need those reminders.
Because otherwise, technology and work and all these things that you're not going to be thinking about at the end of your life are going to steal the time that you have now with the people that you care about. Yeah, and I think that the cooking is such a great example, too, because it can create what I like to call a transition ritual.
So many of us try to go from the chaos of the day straight into, okay, now I'm home and we're supposed to be super sexy and intimate with each other. That is too rough of a transition to make.
We need a little bit of a ritual to help us land, like ground ourselves and know, okay,

I'm here.

I'm in a different state.

I'm doing a different thing now.

So is there some little activity?

And again, all about being practical.

What is something that you could do, you know, super simply in just a couple of minutes to

help the two of you reconnect?

Hey, we're here with each other.

It's our time now. All right.
Let's take the final question from Mr. Christopher Robbins.
The fact that he's even asking makes me want to have sex with him. Okay, honey, here we go.
Here goes the final question. Is there anything that you haven't said or that you're afraid to tell me? Thanks for including me.
Anything I haven't told him. Yes, but I have told him this, but maybe you can give us advice and I can ask this on behalf of the person who's listening who feels the same way.
I feel like work is a huge part of my life

and I have to be out in the world at work, go, go, go, go, go, go. I am the primary breadwinner.
I am aggressive and confident and energetic, and I am responsible for a large number of people on this team and I put a ton of energy into caring for the people that I work with, caring for the people that listen to the show, caring for our children, that I don't want to be the point person on our sex life. Like, I really want to feel desired and to feel like this is one area of my life where I don't have to be the one who's in charge.
And I am sure that is a very common thing that people say that I, and not like in a fairytale way that I'm expecting to be romanced, but I don't want to be the one with the traditional masculine energy that is seeking out the thing that I want. Not to say I'm not a equal partner, but that I don't want it to be on me to have to initiate this too.
Interesting. So I can totally relate to what you're saying.
And I think a lot of people feel that exact same way. Like, I just want to be taken care of.
I don't want to have to think about it and to make that effort. Well, everything in my life, and I think there, you know, as you're listening to me right now, you may feel this too.
You're responsible for caring for your parents. You're responsible for taking care of the kids.
You feel tremendous pressure to get your bills paid. You're the one that is doing the

dishes. And that's not to say that your partner or the person that you're dating isn't doing

anything. It's that there is, to put it in very outdated terms, there's very masculine energy

around being the taskmaster and the moneymaker and the caretaker. And there's more unmasculine or feminine, softer energy that I would love to access in moments of intimacy.
Tell me more about that. What would that look like for you to be able to be more in your feminine when it comes to sex? chris is initiating is it just the initiating yeah i think so i think it's literally like i feel like i'm the one that's always like we should have sex today like we haven't had sex for a while like i'm kind of the one doing that and i i think it would help a lot for me if i felt like this was an area of my life that I had somebody more spontaneous rather than responsive.
To put it in your language. So what do you think, if you just have to guess, what do you think might hold Chris back from initiating? I think Chris has a very full life.
and he also has a job as a founder of a men's retreat where he's taking care of lots of people. He's a death doula.
I mean, just this weekend, he was leading a workshop on holotropic breathwork. He's a phenomenal human being who is also a caretaker.
And so I would imagine that he feels the exact same way that I feel, which is I'm doing my best to provide. I'm doing my best to take care of everybody that I'm taking care of.
I'm doing my best to hold the household together and to make sure the dogs are fed. Could you just help me and take care of my needs? And so I think we're in this.
You're both having the same experience, kind of wanting the other person to take the lead. Yes.
And I feel like most people probably feel this way. And we don't even stop to think that our partners also don't feel like their needs are getting met.
Is this very common? It's very common. And of course, like let's be honest, when our partner takes the lead, when they take that ownership, it feels good.
It feels easier because initiating is so vulnerable. It takes so much vulnerability and it doesn't matter how long you've been with your...
See, I don't agree with that. Especially if you've been with somebody for a long time, I personally don't feel vulnerable about it.
I feel tired. Interesting.
Tired is the biggest thing for me of just working up the mental space. I got to stop thinking about what I'm thinking about.
And the other thing for me, and I know this is something that you talk about, is I think there's a problem in that any intimacy feels like, okay, now we got to have intercourse. Not that intercourse is a bad thing, but you're like, okay, I don't even want to touch the guy because if he gets an erection because I'm stroking his thighs, we're watching Netflix, now I got to do something.
Exactly. Okay.
So for a lot of people, it's great that it's not, it doesn't feel vulnerable for you. For a lot of people, it does feel really vulnerable.
And so I feel really strongly that both partners in a relationship should share that vulnerability of initiating. We all want to feel wanted.
We all want to feel like my partner's thinking of me. They want to connect with me.
So if you have two people, like it sounds like the two of you might be, who are responsive, I think having that intentional intimacy and sitting together and thinking, okay, let's look at our schedule for the next week. What days look best? What looks open? What is the time of day that's going to work best for us? It sounds like for you guys earlier in the day is going to be way better than at the end of the day.
So if you guys can pick out those moments to be with each other, then it feels like you're both contributing. It's not one person taking the lead, one person holding everything on their shoulders.
If you think about other aspects of your life, like let's imagine parenting. I know your kids are grown, but maybe let's think about when they were younger.
Imagine Chris coming up to you and saying, okay, Mel, I want you to take the lead with the parenting. So you're just going to be the parent.
You're going to initiate whatever parenting stuff needs to be done. If you want my help, you can ask me.
Maybe I'll say yes, maybe no. But like you're the parenting person.
That would be crazy, right? But so many of us do that with sex. We want our partner just to do everything for us.
Well, I feel really called out right now because I remember there being a conversation with Chris when I started having to travel for work a lot. And I'm like, you have to be the first call parent.
I can't be the person on the call sheet at school because I'm always traveling for work. We've got to reverse roles.
And now I'm realizing I'm doing the same thing with the poor man around sex. You got to be the first call person.
I think there's probably a deeper reason if you're the person who's squeamish or you're like me and you feel like, I just want somebody to take care of this for me, or you're uncomfortable talking about it. What does taking responsibility for this part of your life and being somebody who initiates intimacy because you want it, how does that change you? It absolutely does.
It's really important for us to recognize that our sex life is our responsibility. And of course, who doesn't want this amazing magical partner who knows everything to do and just goes ahead and does it? But that's sadly not real life.
But there really is a joy in us taking that ownership and deciding, you know what, I want to figure this out for myself. I want to understand why do I feel so squeamish? Why do I feel so uncomfortable? Why do I feel so awkward? I've gone through plenty of those experiences myself.
I actually felt deeply uncomfortable initiating for a really long time. And there are even times in this day where I get a little awkward and I kind of try to talk myself out of it.
Like, no, I shouldn't. He's doing something right now.
I won't bother him. So I get it.
It is really uncomfortable. But there's so much knowledge for us to uncover about ourselves.
I'm like, where does that come from within me? And I think especially as women, we grow up being taught that our job is to put the brakes on sex. We're supposed to say no.
We're supposed to slow things down. We're not supposed to say yes too often, but also not, you know, there are all these rules that get put on us as women.
And I find myself even to this day, even after all this work that I've done, there will be

times that Xander will initiate and I get that knee jerk like, I'm not supposed to.

Oh, that's bad.

I'm not supposed to.

And so just being able to recognize that's not me.

That's some crap that I was taught.

Decades of crappy socialization growing up in a really sex negative society.

So I can acknowledge that that lies within me, but I can also acknowledge that is not me. But what I would also encourage you guys to think about are what are those specific ways that each of you could feel more cared for, more catered to during sex, and come up with specific things.
Is it, I love it when he takes time to massage my back and do a real massage, not one of those 20 seconds, like my hands are heading down south. I want him to do a real massage.
I love it when he brushes my hair. I love it when he draws me a bath and lets me have 10 minutes of alone time.
And that's my transition ritual. And then I come into spending time together.
And I would ask him the same question. What are the specific ways that he could feel taken care of by you? Because that's some real intimacy there too.
If we can let our partner take care of us and tell him like, yeah, these are the things that you could do that would help me feel so cherished and taken care of. And like, I could just relax into receiving.
And especially for us women, we struggle so much with receiving. So to be able to ask your partner, you know, here's what I need to help me receive.
I have so many more questions, but I need to take a quick break and give our sponsors a chance to say a few words to take a listen. and please share this with somebody because this is going to improve your sex life, and anybody that you share this with is going to love the information too.
And don't go anywhere because Vanessa has so much more to share with you, and we're going to be waiting for you after this short break, so stay with us. If you run a business like I do, let me tell you something.
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Hiring, Indeed, is all you need. Welcome back.
It's your buddy, Mel Robbins, and today we're talking all things sex, and I'm loving this conversation, and I'm loving learning with you as we're talking to Vanessa Marin. So Vanessa, what is the single best thing a couple can do if they're on their way to a dry bedroom? Talk about it.
So most of us, when we're in these difficult stages of a relationship, we don't want to acknowledge what's going on. I know when Xander and I have had our dry spell moments, it's like, it's embarrassing.
You don't want to acknowledge the elephant in the bedroom. And so you bury your head in the sand.
You don't want to talk about it. But what happens is it leaves your partner wondering how you really feel about that.
I remember there was a time early in our relationship where I caught myself realizing, I don't remember the last time we had sex. And then my next thought was, does Xander notice? Does he realize it's been a long time or does he not care? And it was all this fear and uncertainty came up for me.
Does he not care? And that's what happens when we're not talking about it. Your partner wonders, do they not care about me anymore? They're not attracted to me anymore.
So even just something as simple as acknowledging, because let's be honest, nobody gets into a dry spell on purpose because life happens. What is a dry spell? Like as a licensed sex therapist, what is the normal amount of time that you should go without having sex? Or like, I want to know like, when do you know you're in the danger zone versus how much sex are people actually having when they're in a relationship? There's no specific definition of what counts as a dry spell.
Some therapists will use like one year. One year.
They might call that a sexless relationship or a sexless marriage. But most people report if it's been like three to six months, to me, that feels like a dry spell.
We've polled our audience about that. So even just acknowledging it and saying, hey, I know life has been so full lately.
We've had all the kids stuff. Work has been crazy, but I want you to know I'm thinking about you and I miss you.
And I really want us to take a look at the calendar and figure out what's some time that we can carve out for just us. That helps your partner recognize like you still care.
You still want to connect. You say that you and your husband make out every night? Every night.
What? Why? Well, we started doing this a couple years ago because we fell into the exact same trap that I just told you most couples fall into. I realized one day, I don't remember the last time that we made out.
And we used to make out all the time at the beginning of our relationship. And it was just one of those incredibly sweet, pure, like brings you back to being a teenager, making out in the car.
And so I realized I really miss that. I miss that we're not making out with each other.
So I decided, you know what, let's make a ritual out of it. Let's make a fun little ritual where I want us to make out every single night.
And so for the first, I think about a month, we made a little rule that I said, you know, the point of this is not that we're trying to get each other turned on and have sex. So we're actually going to say no sex after the makeout.
So walk me through this when, because you said the bedroom and I immediately imagined the kitchen with Chris, but yeah, you can do it through how you and your husband started this ritual and step-by-step what you do. So we do do it in the bedroom, but you could absolutely do it in another place.
And if you're worried about it feeling like it needs to lead to more, I actually would recommend starting it in a different place. But we made that rule that for that first month, no sex afterwards, we have to leave even if we want to.
And the rule was all that has to happen is there has to be a little tongue contact. So it could be 10 seconds.
It could be a couple minutes. We just do a minute every night.
And it's just this really sweet little moment of connection for us where we get to enjoy kissing just for the sake of kissing. It's a really great way to bring that romance back.
What is the bristle response? That is the name of a term that I coined to describe when your partner reaches out to touch you and you feel your whole body recoil. You feel yourself tense up.
You just don't want to be touched. And what that's often the result of is actually bad initiation.
So like I said, a lot of us have started to make that connection that touch leads to sex. And because so many people do feel vulnerable initiating, most people won't come out and directly use their words.
So they will do that. The hug that lingers a little bit longer than it should, the hand on the thigh that's lingering.
And we have such interesting radar. I can tell the split second that Xander starts to initiate.
I'm like, I know what you're doing. And so a lot of us have then become on guard to our partner's touch because we're so worried like, oh, I don't want him to touch me and then it leads to more.
I don't want to touch him and then he'll get turned on and he thinks I want it to lead to more. So, we start cutting ourselves off from that touch and our whole body will react to it.
And it feels terrible in the moment. Like, this is the person that you love the most in this world.
And even if they are just trying to give you a casual little pat on the back, like you feel yourself like, get away from me. So actually the solution for getting rid of the bristle reaction is again, more non-sexual physical touch.
We have to break that connection that touch is supposed to lead to sex. If you're listening to this and you realize you bristle and it might might be innocuous because you literally are just like, it's true.
I have determined in my mind that every time somebody touches me, they want more. And for whatever reason, I don't want more, or I don't have time to, or I'm mad at you, so I don't want to have sex with you.
As a licensed sex therapist, what would you counsel someone to say exactly to their partner to shift this dynamic and call it out? To use this podcast to open up a conversation. Say, I heard this interview.
I'd never heard of this term before, but I realized that's what I'm doing. And I don't want to be doing it.
And I'm sure that it doesn't feel good for you either. And so what I'm realizing with the advice that she gave on the episode is that I want us to have more touch in our relationship.
I want you to be able to reach out and give me a hug or stroke me on the back whenever you feel like it without me having that reaction. So what I want us to do for now is to practice having more of

that touch, but just enjoying the touch. So if you want to initiate sex with me, tell me with

your words. Let's be, just for a brief period of time, let's practice being more direct about it

so that I can relax when you're touching me and know that you're just touching me because you

want a little connection in that moment, not because you're wanting to push it for more.

That makes so much sense. And I can see in periods of my life where I have bristled with Chris.
And it sends a very chilling message to the person that you care about. And I also love that if you're uncomfortable talking about this, share this episode with your partner and say, I want you to pay close attention to the bristle part because I've been guilty of doing that.
Let's talk about it. And then that way you can do it in an email or a text.
You let Vanessa, the licensed sex therapist, and Mel Robbins do the talking and you've now set the table. So Vanessa, what's your number one piece of advice that you should follow on your next date night? Have sex before you go out on a date night.
What? Have sex before the date? Most people get this wrong. They get the order wrong.
We have this idea of we go out on a date and then we come home and have sex. But let's be real.
When you're having date night, you're having a big meal. Maybe you're having a couple of drinks.
You're in your cute outfit that maybe

is a little tight and uncomfortable. Like when I get home from a date night, I want to get my bra

off. I want to take all my clothes off.
I want to get into my pajamas and I want to get on the couch

and watch TV. I do not want to go have sex.
I'm too full. I'm bloated.
I'm gassy, all of the things.

So if we have sex before date night, then you're more excited. You have more energy and then it

Thank you. full, I'm bloated, I'm gassy, all of the things.
So if we have sex before date night, then you're more excited, you have more energy, and then it gets to feel like the sexy little secret that you have between the two of you when you're actually out on the date night. You're a genius.
I am going to rock my husband's world. He's not even going to see what's coming for crying out loud because I've done this all wrong.
It's so much fun. It's a totally different kind of experience when you do it first.
Wow. Okay.
Can you give me exactly what to say if your partner's initiating intimacy and you're not in the mood? I have a really different way of looking at this actually. I want people to expect that you are not going to be in the mood when your partner initiates.
You're two different people. You're thinking about sex, or not thinking about sex, in two totally different ways, two totally different times.
Like when Xander initiates with me, I'll catch myself thinking, wait, wait, wait, you want to have sex? I wasn't even thinking about sex. It feels like I'm behind, I've lost already.
And so I had that knee-jerk reaction to just say no. And so when I finally recognized, like, I don't know, why would I be in the mood in that exact moment? That would be too weird.
Then that really brought the pressure down for me. And I realized, okay, now rather than putting this pressure on myself to feel like I should be in the mood, now I get to decide, is this something that I'm open to doing? And we actually even change the way that we initiate.
Rather than saying, do you want to have sex? Xander will ask me, are you open to being intimate? I love that. Or are you open to me trying to turn you on? And just that one word, changing it to open, that reminds me in the moment.
I'll tell you what, my legs are open now. Well, what I love about that is I just realized just even in the, we should have sex tonight.
Like I'm focusing on the orgasm. Are you open to being intimate later today? Or even are you open to connecting later today? That could be a nice way too.
But yeah, just that one word, it totally changes the vibe and it helps you recognize, no, this is just about like, do I want to create that space with my partner? Do I want to show up in this space with my partner? It really changes the energy. I think you've changed my life with two things.
By sharing that there are two sex drives, spontaneous and responsive. And I'm stealing your husband's line.
And I hope as you're listening and spending time together with us, as you're taking your walk or you're sitting at work or you're driving in your car, that you're realizing that that framing of are you open to doing something fun and intimate Saturday morning? And I love the third thing that you said that I'm just like, wow, you're right. We had sex all the time when we first met because we were constantly planning dates together.
So we were planning sex, duh. And now, of course, I'm like thinking it's some sort of like stupid thing to do when actually that's how it all began.
Exactly. Wow.
Is there a question that if you're in a new relationship that you can ask that really opens up more dialogue around it if you're really enjoying this person and you want to take more responsibility and you want to be more open about this topic. Here's a great first question that you could ask somebody.
And this actually works whether you're dating or you're in a long-term relationship. Ask them, how would you describe what great sex feels like? What do you want to feel? Like, let's imagine you've just had great sex.
You're lying there

in bed afterwards. What are you thinking? That was so fill in the blank.
I actually asked Chris that question. You did? What did he say? Do you think you can guess his answers? And I'm curious your answers too.
What is it that you're wanting to feel in those moments afterwards? So it could be like excitement, connection, vulnerability, playfulness, curiosity. Oh, I think Chris would feel like deeply connected and seen and tired because he had just mind-blowing orgasm.
You got one of them. I only got one of them? He gave me two, connected.
Okay. It was one of them.
Well, what was the other one? Playful. Oh, really? And that's one of my favorite words too.
That's something that Xander and I talked a lot about. Another great question is to ask each other is, what makes sex worth having? And for me, I realized when I really thought about my favorite experiences with Xander, I realized they were the moments when we were playful.
Like, I am such a goofball.

We're really dorky with each other.

And I think a lot of us tend to take sex very seriously.

We feel like, you know, we have to seduce each other and be so serious.

And I realized, like, no, the times that I've had the most fun were when we were laughing in bed,

when, like, awkward things happen and we laughed together,

when we made silly jokes in the middle of sex with each other. For me, being playful makes sex worth having.
I'm so glad you shared that with me because I never in a million years would have thought that that was his answer, but it gives me a clue as to what I could do differently. What would your words be? What would my words be? I think, well, definitely deeply connected and just kind of like, you know, it's afterwards you're like two octopuses with your arms and legs all wrapped around each other just laying there.
Happy, safe, tired. Maybe let's change that one to like maybe blissed out blissed out that's a phenomenal phenomenal one yeah no i and i like playful but i i can take that i can take the nod on that and show up a little differently that's cool that's really cool so i would think about like think about those then back into, okay, what are the specific things that we could do during sex or in the lead up to sex to create that kind of experience with each other? And I'd go back as well to, you know, we talked so much about feeling taken care of.
And while yes, I do encourage you, like, I would encourage you that you guys should split that responsibility of initiating, but in this kind of more planful way that it's going to work for the responsive sex drive types. But you could also really take turns, like doing those specific things to take care of each other.
Like tonight's my night to just relax and let you take care of me. And then the next time I'm going to take care of you.
But what are those specific things that could make you feel like, I get to leave the Mel Robbins business, Wonder Woman. I get to leave her in the office and I get to show up in the bedroom with you and just let you take care of me and cherish me.
Well, I think it's a really common experience. I mean, if you're a nurse working in a hospital, you've been taking care of me.
If you're a teacher, if you're working the night shift, if you're caring for aging parents, it's not even that you have to be doing this kind of perceived big thing. It's that you're doing big things all day long.
And what I love about the word playful is that I do believe that there's probably history and legacy that comes from the lie we've all been told about the steamy, hot, spontaneous, crazy, mind-blowing sex. And the idea of just making it playful and fun, that just creates a whole new future and opportunity to connect.
What are some little things that make a big difference in your sex life? I'll give you three. First one, gratitude, which you might not expect.
But research has shown that gratitude is actually the number one predictor of marital satisfaction. And we talked earlier about how emotional and physical intimacy are really deeply intertwined.
So if we want to feel closer to our partner and get like the maximum bang for our buck, gratitude is the fastest thing that you can do. It's literally a few seconds to say, I appreciate this about you.
I saw that you did that. Thank you so much for this.
Second thing is some form of physical contact with each other. We talked a lot about non-sexual touch.
It's so important to have that non-sexual touch. And in particular, I like a six-second kiss and a 20 to 30-second hug.
We actually have research showing that those are the specific timeframes it takes for our body to release oxytocin, the bonding hormone, the trust hormone makes us feel close to each other. And then the third thing, eye contact.
It is wild how few couples make eye contact with each other.

And I think that there is no greater tragedy than being in a long-term relationship with somebody but feeling literally and emotionally unseen by them. So those three things, you can do those three things in under a minute every single day and those will make such a big impact on your sex life.
Gratitude, eye contact.

And then you set a six-second kiss a 30 second hug and you release the oxytocin in your body that is that sort of bonding chemical. Yeah.
Oh, I love that. You can even multitask, do the hug while you're giving the gratitude.
It's so fast. I know we all feel busy.
We all feel overwhelmed. Sex can feel like this big, complicated, heavy thing.
But if you can take those 60 seconds for each other once a day, it will make all the difference in the world. You've been working as a licensed sex therapist for over 20 years.
You're married. Vanessa, what are three things you would never do? Okay, I'll tell you these.
And I have to say, though, that I have done all of these things. I learned a lot of my advice by doing the exact opposite thing.
But these are things that I would no longer do. I would never fake another orgasm.
I would never mock my partner for initiating sex, even if he's initiating at a time that I'm really not open to it. Even if I'm thinking like, now you want to have sex right now? I won't mock him or make fun of him for that because I want to recognize the vulnerability it takes to do that.
And the third thing is I would not take it personally if my partner is experiencing performance issues. It is really, really challenging for a man to have his body not be responding the way that he wants it to.
And unfortunately, so many of us women, again, myself included many times in the past, we make it about us. Like, you don't think I'm sexy.
What's wrong with me? I did something bad. And that just creates so much more stress and anxiety for him in that moment.
So recognizing like, hey, I'm going to be your teammate in this. I'm not going to make it about me.
Beautiful. So you have this brand new deck of cards, the sex talk, with all these different kinds of questions that couples can ask each other.
Why did you create this? The card deck is based off of our New York Times bestselling book, Sex Talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life. We wanted to have a more fun and playful way to continue encouraging conversations.
So sex talks is all about the five conversations that every couple needs to have that'll transform your sex life. And we thought, let's make it into a game too.
So we have this great card deck. There are cards broken down into five categories and it just makes it feel fun to talk about sex.
Everybody's heard the advice, talk about sex. You know, you talk about it with your partner, But none of us know like, but what do I say? How do I say it? When do I say it? So with the book and the deck, we really set out to solve that for you and lay out for you exactly what to say.
Here are some of the questions. Would you rather have a two-minute quickie with an orgasm or 30 minutes of pleasure with no orgasm? Now, when I first read it, I'm like, well, a quickie and why would I want pleasure with no orgasm? But if you ask it in a non-confrontational way, you might actually find, and I'd probably find with my husband, I'm realizing, he would prefer 30 minutes of pleasure and play with no orgasm rather than a two-minute transactional ejaculation.
I love the would-you-rather format because it just makes it feel so much more fun to pick one example out of two. And that conversation about the length of sex is so important.
Couples never talk about that. What is your ideal length of sex? And we often find that couples are on very different pages.
the woman will say, oh, like five minutes or so. And the man says, oh, I thought you wanted like half an hour, 45 minutes going all night.
Like we hear about in songs all the times. Is there a timeframe that as a licensed sex therapist, you tend to hear more than another? We know that the average length of intercourse in particular, so I know we're talking a little heteronormatively here, but intercourse in particular lasts on average five minutes.
So it tends to be pretty short. Wow.
And the reason why I ask is because if time and being tired is my perceived biggest obstacle to having more sex with the man that I love, then I would think the opinion that it should be longer than something quick also keeps you from initiating. It's just like why you don't call a friend.
You're like, well, I don't have time right now to catch up. And so maybe even just focusing on how long it is probably is part of the problem in terms of us even initiating.
Yeah, this is actually something Xander makes fun of me all the time for because there'll be times that we have sex and I'm like, okay, we only have a short amount of time. We got to really get to it.
And he always laughs like, we're usually pretty efficient if we need to be like, you don't have to worry about that. We need to get it done.
We will get it done. Is there anything else you want to add? Let's talk a little bit more about the pleasure around sex.
So many of us get so focused on desire and feeling like we're low desire or no desire, and we don't think about the pleasure. If you're not enjoying the sex that you're having, it doesn't make any sense for you to crave it.
Why would you want to have something that's not an enjoyable experience? Remember that the pleasure needs to be the most important part of this too. Well, how do you create more pleasure if you're not enjoying what you're doing? We need to start having sex that prioritizes female pleasure as much as it prioritizes male pleasure.
The way that we are taught, especially in male-female relationships to have sex, it is all about male pleasure. And so we women are having this experience that sure, it might be fun, it might be intimate, but we're not getting the kind of stimulation that our bodies need.
And we're having sex on our partner's timeline. Once he has an orgasm, then it's over.
It's all about his orgasm. So we need to write that balance and start having sex that prioritizes both partners' pleasure.
And like I was saying earlier, the solution here is actually relatively simple.

Female orgasm is not any more difficult,

complicated, or mysterious than male orgasm.

It seems like it, because it's on the inside,

not the outside.

You know what I mean? We both need the same thing.

We need stimulation of the part of our body

that is the most sensitive.

For us, that's the clitoris.

For men, that's the penis.

And we totally accept that for men. Yeah, you need stimulation of your penis, of course.
But when it comes to the clitoris, a lot of people think of it as, oh, it's so hard to find and it's so difficult. And do you need that? And it's extra.
Why can't you just orgasm from penetration? But would we ever do that to a man? Would we ever say, why do you need your penis stimulating? Why can't you have an orgasm from that? That's so difficult. Can I just look at it? That's so much extra work, right? Exactly.
So again, it's not that difficult. It's just we need that clitoral stimulation.
And most of us are having sex that heavily emphasizes intercourse. There is no clitoral stimulation.
So I have this funny comparison that I always like to make because when we're having intercourse, we're getting stimulation in our vagina. And the vagina does not have very many nerve endings compared to the clitoris, which has anywhere between 8,000 to 12,000 nerve endings in it.
So from a nerve ending standpoint, intercourse for a woman is like playing with a man's balls. That might be fun for him.
It might feel good. But would we expect a man to orgasm just from a little ball play? Absolutely not.
And would we make him feel bad for it? Like, what's wrong with you that you can't have that ball orgasm? This is taking too long. Yeah, it's taking too long.
Those balls are really hard to play with, right? So, we need to treat female pleasure the exact same way we treat male pleasure, and then the problem would be solved. But really getting clear on what are the specific things that really bring you pleasure and coming from a place of recognizing there's nothing wrong with you.
You're not broken if you're not desiring sex that's not pleasurable. Makes perfect sense not to.
Well, it seems to be that you're working as you should because why would you desire something you don't enjoy. So what would you say to the person who's listening who doesn't feel comfortable? Or I think it's even deeper that you, based on your past experiences, especially the negative ones, you don't know how to give yourself permission that you deserve pleasure.

Yeah, you're exactly right. We have to start at the level of the deservingness.
We are all deserving of pleasure. Pleasure is our birthright.
You don't have to do anything to earn it. You just deserve it for being exactly who you are right now.
And so I would get curious with myself and I would think, where in my life did I learn that I didn't deserve this? Who told me that? Where did I pick that up? And then I would ask myself, do I want to continue believing those voices? Do I want to continue believing that I'm not deserving this? What does it cost me to continue believing that I don't deserve this? What could be available to me if I allowed myself to see that I do deserve this? It's also a really beautiful conversation to have with your partner. The reality is we all want to please our partners.
Chris asked that. What could I do to make it better? I know you're thinking that too.
What could I do to make it better for him? Make it more playful, clearly. We all want to do better for our partners.
So recognizing like your partner's not sitting over there like, thank God, I don't know anything about what they want. This is great for me.
Like they want to know you. That's intimacy.
I know you. You show me who you are.
You show me all the parts of yourself that you're scared to show other people. And I'm here for that.
So being able to recognize that is so important. You know, in your private practice, how often does like a past traumatic sexual experience or some adverse childhood event or having a partner that cheated on you, how often is that the thing that's in the way between a couple? Oh, incredibly, incredibly often.
Unfortunately, especially trauma is far too common. Research says about one in every three or four women will experience some sort of sexual trauma.
And of course, your body gets the message that sex is unsafe, it's scary. It's all about what another person wants, not what about you want.
And so being able to reclaim that is really a journey. And if you're listening and that's you, how would you advise somebody to bring it up with your current partner when you start to realize, oh, the reason why I freeze and I can't find freedom and pleasure is because of a past issue.
It has nothing to do with you. How do you raise that with your partner? Yeah, most people don't make that connection.
People will say, it happened so long ago. We were taught to really downplay it.
Oh, other people have had it worse than me. I've forgotten about it.
I've moved past it. And so most people don't recognize that it lingers with us and it affects the sex life that we have now.
So first, it's validating it for yourself. Oh, I can see that there are parts of me that don't feel safe during sex, or there are parts of me that are performing something for my partner.
And then being able to have that conversation with your partner where you make it clear, yeah, this is nothing to do about you. I trust you.
I know that you would never do this, but I'm recognizing my body is having this experience of being stuck in the past. I had that issue.
Like, we're up in my head. I knew it was something from the past and that I'm safe with Chris, but my body had different programming.
And so it wasn't until I recognized it and spoke about it that I could actually do the work to heal and then take control of the pleasure and how I wanted to experience this act of intimacy with somebody who I feel deeply safe with. I've had a lot of male friends ask me recently, whether it's somebody that they're dating that's new or something that's come up in a long-term relationship about, I don't know what to do because I am with somebody that has this in their history, how can I show up in a way that creates safety? What advice do you have for somebody where you're the one who is in a relationship with somebody who is working through an issue like this? So first, let me just say we actually have a free guide that we created for survivors of sexual abuse that also includes a component for how partners can show up.
And we give that away absolutely for free. It's not meant to be a replacement for psychotherapy.
We definitely recommend anybody who's gone through trauma to do personal therapy. You deserve that, too, that treatment container.
But you can find it at vmtherapy.com slash free, and we can link to it as well so people can find that. But I really wanted to create something that would give practical tools for people who are looking to reclaim that sense of safety and partners who want to support that as well.
But a couple of things that I can say is it can be really helpful to let your partner be in control for a little while. So let them be the one who is initiating and really check in with them.
Continue asking them, is this okay? Does this feel good? I actually prefer the question, does this feel good rather than just okay? Another thing that you can do is if you catch them in moments, if you feel them tuning out, usually a lot of people can. Yeah.
If you see them freezing, their eye contact is going somewhere else. You can just feel that sense of they're not there with me right now.
Stop in that moment and take some time to check in with them and say, hey, where'd you go? You know, I'm here with you. Is there anything you want to talk about? So really helping them feel like you're attuned to them.
I see what's going on with you and I'm not just going to continue on. I want to really connect with you.
Oh, I love that. I also love making a safe list.
So a lot of other people will come up with trigger lists, which I think is super valuable as well. Like let's come up with, are there specific, you know, I don't like being in this position.
I don't like being grabbed in this way. I don't like you saying this phrase.
It's really useful for your partner to know all of that so they can avoid it. But I also like balancing it out by having a safe list or a joy list where it's like, I really love it when we're in this position.
I love it when you say this to me. I love it when you bring this kind of energy into sex so that your partner can understand the specifics, the specific ways that they can support you.
I would love to have you just speak directly to the person who's listening. And they have just spent all this time learning from you and laughing at me and feeling sorry for my husband.
But if there's one thing that they could take away from this conversation, and if you could wave a magic wand and tell them, here's the one thing I want you to do today, what would it be? I want you to start talking about sex with your partner. It is such an important foundation for us to lay with each other.
There are no other aspects of our relationship that we don't talk about or that we would expect would function perfectly with zero communication. Like imagine trying to be a parent with zero communication.
Imagine trying to cook dinner with zero communication. Like we won't, we don't do that to anything else other than our sex life.
And so I know it can feel intimidating and scary, but I hope that you've learned some ways that we can ease into it and realize like it actually can be super fun and really connecting to talk about sex. Well, I'm thrilled to have had the opportunity to be here with you.
And as much as I make jokes about this as a way to deflect, I'm also feeling very grateful that Chris was willing to ask you questions that I could hear, that I could learn from. And I really do think everything that we've learned today is going to help the person listening, me, my husband, the person that's in your life, to enjoy this really important aspect of being an adult.
So what are your parting words? Well, I'm so glad to have been here. I hope that this episode has given you at least one or two little tidbits that you can take into your life.
And I feel so much hope for you and for everybody listening that they can create that kind of intimacy that they've always wanted to experience. I'm really excited.
I actually can't wait to get home and have some fun playing around with Christopher Robbins. And I'm really excited for you as you're listening and how you're going to use everything that Vanessa shared with you today, based on the research, based on her 20 years of clinical practice, based on her bestselling book, to take control of this area of your life because you deserve intimacy, you deserve pleasure, you deserve play, you deserve a blissful, amazing orgasm, and now we know we're having sex before the date.
Yes. Vanessa, thank you, thank you, thank you for all you do.
Thank you for hopping on a plane and being here with us in our Boston studios. Thank you so much for having me.
Oh my gosh. I learned so much.
I'm so excited that you were here. I'm so excited about what I learned and I'm so excited for you.
There is zero doubt in my mind that everything that you just learned will absolutely help you create a better life, feel more pleasure, feel more comfortable. You can share this episode as a way to break the ice, trap them in the car with you and just hit play.
And now you're listening to and talking about sex. And none of us are talking about this thing enough.
And so I'm glad you and I were here together today to not only learn, but to be talking about this super important topic as well. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life.
Now that you got the roadmap for how to do that in the bedroom, go do it. I'll be waiting for you in the very next episode, the moment you hit play.
I'll see you there. And it is so...

Oh, hold on a second.

Let me start from the top because it's way too jumbly.

Hey, Mel Robbins is talking about butt stuff.

I never thought I would hear that, but now I'm kind of curious.

I think my favorite question so far is,

do you like being surprised during sex or do you prefer to know what's coming?

I prefer to know what's coming and it's me.

And you, and you, let's be very clear. And you, Chris, which is going to flip most things that

you know about desire, pleasure, sex drive, orgasm right on its head. No pun intended.
Fantastic.

That was so much fun. Oh, and one more thing.
And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language.
You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.
I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.
Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.