Talking About Advice: The Moth Podcast

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Speaker 1 Welcome to the Moth. I'm Chloe Salmon, and in this episode, we're trying out something a little different.

Speaker 1 I just hosted a Moth radio hour that featured stories on the theme of advice, including one from John Paul Bremer, who is an advice columnist himself.

Speaker 1 His column, Ola Poppy, has counseled hundreds of readers over the years, and he came to the Moth office to chat with me about the world of professional advice giving and storytelling.

Speaker 1 We included a short part of the conversation in the radio episode, but thought you all might like hearing the whole shebang, including us talking about how to give advice that people actually listen to and offering up some tough love about listeners' real problems.

Speaker 1 We hope you enjoy.

Speaker 1 Hey, John Paul, it is so great to have you here today.

Speaker 3 Hey, Chloe, I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 1 I'm so happy you're here. All right.
So we're going to start with some questions.

Speaker 1 What advice would you give your teenage self if you could go back and have a coffee with him?

Speaker 3 Ooh,

Speaker 3 getting a coffee with my younger self would be so dangerous because I am now a coffee addict and just like putting myself on that path even earlier, I can only imagine.

Speaker 3 You know, my advice to him would just be, you got to calm down. You got to relax.

Speaker 3 Like you, I think I wanted so much stuff so fast and I was just constantly frustrated with myself for not having it yet.

Speaker 3 And I would just tell him the same thing I might tell myself today, which is that you got to enjoy the process, man. It's not about stressing yourself out to achieve results.
You're going to be fine.

Speaker 3 Read a book.

Speaker 1 That's beautiful. I think we have very similar personalities.

Speaker 3 But coffee wouldn't help with that. Yeah.
Obviously.

Speaker 1 You're like, look, I just need you to calm down, but here is a quad shot.

Speaker 3 I need you to do so much caffeine.

Speaker 1 All right. So you're a very funny person.
It shows up in your story, but something else that I really love about your story is its vulnerability and its tenderness.

Speaker 1 So how do you find yourself striking that balance when you give advice to your readers?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I'm very lucky in that Ola Poppy started at Grindr. And so I, you know, didn't take it as a very serious endeavor.
So it sort of

Speaker 3 short-circuited that thing I mentioned earlier where I tend to like just try really hard and I want to tackle things very seriously.

Speaker 3 And so I was able to let loose and be like, this is an advice column for a gay hookup app. Like I don't have to be Dear Abby here.

Speaker 3 In fact, the whole project of Ola Papi was me being like, what if I kind of made fun of Dear Abby or like did a satire where like Dear Abby is a gay Latino man on Grindr?

Speaker 3 I thought that would be so funny. And even the title Ola Papi, you know, it was for Grindr and their outlet at the time was naming things off of funny little Grindr-ism.
So they have this.

Speaker 3 outlet called Into,

Speaker 3 which is based on, you know, what people would say to each other and ask each other on the apps.

Speaker 3 They had a celebrity interview series called Zero Feet Away, which is a play on the kind of creepy distance feature on Grindr.

Speaker 3 And so I was like, I'm going to just take something that I hear a lot on Grindr and... turn it around, make it my own, make it funny.
And I thought I was going to be running a joke column.

Speaker 3 I thought the whole thing was going to be me making fun of people for writing into me and just talking about how great I am. But then.
But then.

Speaker 3 So here's the thing about running an advice column on Grindr where it gets pushed to the app.

Speaker 3 A lot of people on Grindr are in the queer community.

Speaker 3 A lot of them are lonely because if you're on Grindr, you're looking for something, right?

Speaker 3 And a lot of them never had that like gay older brother or that queer elder or that person who could take them aside and be like, hey, buddy, here's how to be gay.

Speaker 3 You know, here's how we do things around here. And they saw an opportunity to write a letter to someone like that.
And they were like, I have a lot to get off my chest.

Speaker 3 And so a lot of these letters were very heartfelt, they were very poignant, they made me very emotional. And I realized I can't make fun of these people.

Speaker 3 Like, because I think the first letter I ever answered was solicited from a friend of mine where I was like, Hey, buddy, you're gonna be like a pinata for me.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry, and it was like a question from he played like the clueless white guy who was just like, I like Latinos, is it a fetish?

Speaker 3 And you know, I just made fun of him for asking me in the first place.

Speaker 3 But then, when the letters came in from actual community members from Grindr, I was like, Oh my god, what have I gotten myself into?

Speaker 3 So today, even still, the recipe for an Ola Poppy column still has that intention towards humor. It's baked into its DNA, but it's also a little earnest.
It's a little vulnerable.

Speaker 3 It's me sitting down at the bar with you being like, hey, I've been where you've been. And I think I can hear you out and maybe give you some advice that will help you in the future.

Speaker 3 And yeah, that's just where the whole thing came from.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I love that. Like, and I also appreciate your pivot.

Speaker 1 What if you had just been like, I'm really just actually going to double down on this?

Speaker 3 I'm going going to be cruel. I'm going to be actually the worst person you've ever met in your entire life.

Speaker 1 Oh, no, I love that. Yeah, that like once you opened up the space, you were very surprised by what came into it.
Yeah, I feel like you've met that. I feel

Speaker 3 you've risen. You've risen to the challenge.

Speaker 1 So, do people in your life come to you for advice, or are they like, no, butt out, John Paul?

Speaker 3 You know, they don't really, which is quite the indictment of my personal life.

Speaker 3 You know, I'm like a pretty standard friend to people in my life who are like, hey, I'm dealing with this right now. What should I do? But it does feel like I have this poppy persona.

Speaker 3 There's a room in my brain that's dedicated to Poppy. And he's like this kind of separate person.

Speaker 3 He has his own quirks. He has his own way of doing things.
And I really like it that way because I have people ask me, you know,

Speaker 3 do you feel like you're wise enough to give advice? Do you feel like you're the kind of person who can actually help someone?

Speaker 3 And I'm like, not me, but like this thing in my brain or like this character up here kind of of can and I really enjoy that because it lets me be as messy as I want and need to be so I go out and I collect the life experiences that Poppy needs to use to make advice like I'm gonna make the mistakes I'm gonna get in scenarios that I shouldn't be in I believe my friend the other day just said it's amazing you're still with us because I was like

Speaker 1 thank you yeah so that's kind of the system we have going on and it really works for me I okay so I love that that idea of it's kind of like a partitioned kind of because it's still you but then if you can like flip that switch and say oh, this is poppy now, because that was actually my next question.

Speaker 1 Do you ever worry you're going to give bad advice? It feels like a lot of pressure, you know, like I would be a little terrified to give advice and then there it is. It's the advice you've given.

Speaker 1 Do you ever get scared that you might give bad advice?

Speaker 3 Yeah, a lot.

Speaker 3 And I'm sure that if I were to really go through all the columns that I've written over time, I would probably pick some out that I just no longer agree with or that, you know, the situation has changed.

Speaker 3 And I try to think of it as like this column needs needs to be able to function both as, you know, advice to the person who asked, but also as kind of entertainment for anyone who approaches it and anyone else who reads it.

Speaker 3 They need to be able to see themselves in it.

Speaker 3 And in that way, it's not such a different project from writing in general, where it's like you're trying to let someone into the way you see things, but you're also giving them an experience.

Speaker 3 And they need to be able to put themselves in your shoes and vice versa. And so I do feel like the Poppy Project is a writing project.

Speaker 3 Like I'm not so much terribly obsessed over, like, what if I said the wrong thing? Or what if I gave someone a piece of advice that is just incorrect? Because, you know, it's not a science.

Speaker 3 It's definitely an art. And when I think of it as that way, as a place to express myself and bring some creativity, some compassion,

Speaker 3 yeah, but I'm so certain I would look back and be like, girl, why did you see me? What were you talking about? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Again, that feels like a very healthy way to look at it.
Because otherwise, I feel like it can be really easy to just totally be frozen and like, oh, God, what's the exact right thing to say?

Speaker 1 And unfortunately, I've learned there isn't, there's usually not an exact right thing to say. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 So, you know, advice shows up so much in our personal relationships with friends and family, but advice columns have people writing in constantly to total strangers.

Speaker 1 So what do you think drives people to reach out to a stranger on the internet and say, hey, can you help me with this thing?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think about this a lot because it's something I would never do in my entire life. I would never write into a stranger with an issue of mine.
Like, who does that?

Speaker 3 But I'm so glad they do it because that's my business model, right? And what's interesting to me is that over the years, I sometimes get a flood. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And sometimes I go periods where no one says anything. And I think that our relationship with strangers on the internet, it's like that's something we're still working out.

Speaker 3 Social media is still kind of this wild west where we don't know how to regulate it. It kind of falls apart.
Then a new one pops up. And, you know, there's Twitter, then there's TikTok.

Speaker 3 And then, you know, people's platforms disappear overnight, but then there's this new trendy thing that everyone's signing up for. And so I've noticed that

Speaker 3 the people who write into me and when they write into me is sort of tied with whatever the cultural moment with social media looks like.

Speaker 3 So people will tend to talk to me more or send me more letters when I'm on a more stable website.

Speaker 3 So like peak Twitter, I was getting so many letters because people already saw me as like this person on the internet they kind of knew. So to them, I wasn't a stranger.

Speaker 3 I was like this person that they like kind of wanted to hang out with or that they kind of wanted to talk to.

Speaker 1 That's so interesting. And specifically to what you said about like the ebb and flow of it of like sometimes you get a lot and sometimes you barely get any.

Speaker 1 I feel like it's kind of similar to like my work at the moth or our work here at the moth. It's like a trend of stories that we're getting pitched.

Speaker 1 But it is really interesting of how the cultural moment influences what people are thinking about, what they want to share, what they're reaching out about.

Speaker 3 I mean, as a nosy person, this is one of the most amazing authors.

Speaker 3 Like, it's no coincidence that you and I have ended up here on this floor here today because I am so nosy and I just love hearing people's.

Speaker 3 I don't care what it is, as long as it's cheese mae, I want it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I am exactly like that as well. And this is the perfect job for me because it's not invasive.
And same for you. People are coming to us

Speaker 1 and being like, oh, like, I would like to tell this story. And then I get to say, tell me literally everything.
And it's the happiest I can ever be.

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Like, tell me all about it. Okay, so I'm an oldest sister.
I have two younger brothers, and I feel like I've been giving advice for a long time.

Speaker 1 They might say I've been bossing them around and having very strong opinions for a long time. How do you give advice in a way that doesn't feel judgmental?

Speaker 3 Yeah, you know, I am also an elder sibling. I have a younger sister who is much more emotionally together than I am.
So I don't think the dynamic quite maps onto what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I think about this a lot, and it does factor in quite a bit to what the poppy voice is because I always thought of Ola Poppy, like literally when I sat down to map out what this whole thing would look like, I did think of my first experiences in gay bars when I would go in and the language felt totally alien to me because, you know, like LGBT is another language entirely.

Speaker 3 Like the slang is like out of control whenever I find myself having to explain to a straight man like why we're calling everything mother. It's like,

Speaker 3 what about that bar is mother? And I'm like, oh, Teddy.

Speaker 1 You just have to, you just have to get it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, like you're either here or you're not.

Speaker 3 But I just remember feeling so overwhelmed. And, you know, I grew up in rural Oklahoma.
And my, I'm quite a stubborn person. So I was closeted until I wasn't.

Speaker 3 So like in the closet, I didn't interact with the culture at all. I was not looking for anything.
I didn't know what the community was getting up to at the time other than listening to Lady Gaga.

Speaker 3 And so when I came out, it was like a completely alien world to me. And I remember how vulnerable that felt.
And I remember how badly I wanted someone, anyone, to just take me under their wing.

Speaker 3 And it's such a delicate position to be in because when people come to you with vulnerability, obviously there's a heightened sensitivity. They are listening very intently to every last word you say.

Speaker 3 It's so full of landmines. And so I just wanted to be the kind of cool mentor figure that I always wanted.
And I just let that be my compass.

Speaker 3 This is after I decided to start taking the project more seriously and that I wasn't going to bully people. I was like, okay, I'm going to be, I guess, in a way, like a community resource here.

Speaker 3 And what does that look like? Because I'm not going to sit around and explain how everything works. It's a conversation.
It's not me talking down to you.

Speaker 3 And yeah, I would say that's still how the column works.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I love that. Because yeah, it is interesting.
You know, I just,

Speaker 1 I read advice columns all the time because I just, again, I'm nosy. I'm like, oh gosh,

Speaker 1 what is this person asking? What did this person say back? Is it in line with what I would have said back?

Speaker 1 But yeah, that idea of, again, like the persona, right? And like the thought that goes into that. Because yeah, you're taking people's vulnerabilities.

Speaker 1 It takes a lot of bravery to

Speaker 1 share something that is deeply personal. You know, when I work with storytellers, it feels the same way.

Speaker 1 I feel like I really want to honor that, you know, and you have to hold that in a way.

Speaker 1 But also the idea, again, of like, okay, but then at the end of this, you know, you're writing a column for entertainment. Like they're going to be up on stage telling a story.

Speaker 1 You know, what version of that can be up there, can still feel true to the vulnerability, can still feel safe for them, but that can also be something that people want to listen to. It's interesting.

Speaker 3 It really does map onto the moth experience. Like, there's so much symmetry there.

Speaker 3 Like, yeah, depending on what you share, and if you come with an open heart and open mind to what people are here to tell you about and vice versa.

Speaker 3 I just know that like after every moth experience, I walk away with like five people who were previously strangers. And then it's like, oh, these are my best friends in the world.

Speaker 3 It's just like, it is very much like you form a bonds.

Speaker 3 Just quickly.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're out somewhere in the middle of nowhere in this town together and everybody in town is really nice to you because they're excited to come and listen to what you have to say.

Speaker 1 And then, yeah, it is. It's a really special, it's a really special experience.

Speaker 1 I wonder too, and this is just my curiosity, your writing that I've read, and I'm sure this kind of umbrellas over all of it, is very humorous but honest, vulnerable.

Speaker 1 That's why when I started reading it, I was, this person is is going to tell an amazing mom story. And honestly, like the first kind of draft you shared with me was so strong and so great.

Speaker 1 And I was curious,

Speaker 1 you know, telling a story live on stage, you're not reading off of a script, there's not notes, you know, but you're pulling from your memory.

Speaker 1 How did that experience feel different to you in some way from what you've done already? Or did it feel like, oh, actually, like, this feels mostly similar?

Speaker 3 Oh, gosh, yes. Well, it really feeds the part of me I've always had, which is this like inner thespian.

Speaker 3 So I remember like being in Catholic school and the only part of Catholic school that I liked was when I was tapped to do the readings at the front of Mass.

Speaker 3 And I'm saying words, I don't know what they mean, Corinthians, Ephesians, or whatever.

Speaker 3 But the priest was always like, that young man, he reads for the back of the room. That's like, it was the best compliment to ever receive.

Speaker 3 I just love being in front of people, which makes no sense as a super anxious person. And I have a lot of social anxiety and I don't function so well in like intimate groups.

Speaker 3 But put me on a stage with a bunch of people and I feel like I activate in a fun way But like I never would have tapped back into that were it not for the moth and so being able to marry these two parts of me where it's like I love writing but I also love presenting I just loved it and like I remember ramping up to the first time I ever did it.

Speaker 3 I was like oh wait, this is like something a crazy person would do like I was just imagining someone with any ounce of stage fright in their body and this is like the craziest roller coaster that you could probably go on in that situation.

Speaker 3 And yeah, I was just so impressed that you were able to notice like who would be good for this because I kind of hadn't given you any material to like reinforce this idea that I was capable of something like this, but you just knew.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And so like, I think the moth is so good at making me feel like I'm in good hands with people who know what they're doing.
And that feeling of knowing what you're doing kind of rubs off.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, no, I can do this actually. It's tonight.
Yeah. Like it's another day at the office.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it's so conversation-based as well. Like, I talked to you and I immediately was like, oh, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 But, you know, know, even people who I've worked with people who are like, I've never gotten up on a stage before, you know, people who aren't writers or comedians, people who aren't used to, you know, putting themselves out there in any way.

Speaker 1 And yeah, it is every time I'm just like, wow, when people agree to do it, I'm like, in my head, I'm like, really?

Speaker 3 Right?

Speaker 1 Then everybody does still get up on stage. Again, it's just a humongous amount of bravery.
I feel always. So proud of everybody.

Speaker 3 I was talking to someone the other day and they were like, so what is the moth? And I was explaining what, you know, my experiences have been like with it. Yeah.
And he was like, so like a bard.

Speaker 3 And I was like, yeah, kind of. But like there is such a strong tradition of storytelling that all this sort of connects back to.

Speaker 3 Like with my advice column as well, like I started nerding out immediately after I realized that I was a successful advice columnist. I was like, I should see what the roots of this thing are.

Speaker 3 And I was looking into it and the advice column was like one of the very few open doors where people who weren't traditionally allowed to have writing careers kind of found themselves.

Speaker 3 So it was like a lot of women, it was a lot of LGBTQ people, and it was a lot of people who, for one reason or another, just weren't given that like prime time slot of like, oh, you're like our star journalist or you're our star writer.

Speaker 3 And so it's just funny how the roots of these things tend to manifest in modern day life, where it's like, oh, I also found myself in a room with these people. And, you know, my ancestors.

Speaker 3 in the advice column world kind of have some symmetry with me. And yeah, like these traditions traditions of storytelling, like oral storytelling, what the moth does, and advice columns.

Speaker 3 It's just fun to feel like you're a living aspect of these traditions and you're kind of keeping them alive and you're kind of, you're still doing it. Yeah, that's a lovely way to look at it.

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Speaker 1 John Paul, you have very kindly brought in a couple of questions that have been sent to you. I will read the first one.

Speaker 1 Hola, Poppy.

Speaker 1 My friend and I have known each other for over 15 years, and I've always considered her one of my best friends, as well as one of my few friendships that's endured several moves, schools, and countries.

Speaker 1 Over the years, we've spoken less frequently, but still made time to get together for big events. My perception of our friendship was shaken last fall.

Speaker 1 She had gotten married in a small pandemic wedding and had always said she'd put on a bigger wedding to invite all her friends once it was feasible.

Speaker 1 I heard from a mutual friend that the wedding was officially being planned, but no date had been set yet.

Speaker 1 I didn't think anything of it it until a couple months later when her sister messaged me and asked whether I was coming to the wedding.

Speaker 1 It was then I learned that not only had a date already been set, but it was hardly a month away. The day of the wedding passed and she posted all over social media about it.

Speaker 1 I liked the post, hoping she'd see the notification and reach out with an explanation. It's been half a year already and I haven't been able to stop obsessing over it.

Speaker 1 Even the funny posts we would send one another have dried up.

Speaker 1 I keep replaying the last time I saw her over in my head wondering if I did anything to upset her or make her feel excluded.

Speaker 1 I know our mutual friends, who also didn't receive any invites, are sick of me talking about it. I feel like Katie Heron, helpless to stop invoking Regina George when everyone else is past it.

Speaker 1 At this point, I don't know how to move on.

Speaker 1 How do I make peace with the fact that my longest friendship is over and that for whatever reason that I may never know, she chose not to say anything about it.

Speaker 3 Whew,

Speaker 1 okay, layers, layers, layers, layers. My goodness.

Speaker 3 This is tough. I know.
Well, my favorite part of this letter is the part where she's like, I started liking the posts.

Speaker 3 You ever just like be on social media and do something that just makes you feel like an absolute creature? Yes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. And that's so tough too, because you're so emotional.
And friendships ending, we don't talk enough about how devastating that can be.

Speaker 1 Like, there's space to talk about a relationship ending, like a romantic relationship ending and how horrible that is.

Speaker 1 But friendships, some of my friendships that have like gone by the wayside have impacted me so much. It's a really painful, it's a really painful time.
I don't think I've liked any liked any posts

Speaker 3 still. Also, you know, in our culture, it's the norm to bring a really formal end to romantic relationships.

Speaker 3 We have a system where it's like, okay, we need to both sit down and really declare this thing over with.

Speaker 3 But we don't have that for friendships, which can just sort of drift away or can just wordlessly stop. stop.
And often in advice column world,

Speaker 3 I have to do a lot of work to dress up the same three pieces of advice over and over again because most people are just one frank conversation away from the conclusion to their issue.

Speaker 3 Like, I think if I were this person, and mind you,

Speaker 3 Marriages and weddings, this is something of an exotic culture to me. Like, so my sister and my two girl cousins that I was raised with, they're all getting married around the same time.

Speaker 3 And it's all coming up in the near future. And so I'm learning.
i'm listening i'm sitting down i'm growing i am trying to understand their culture

Speaker 3 it's a lot it's a lot i have friends getting married and it brings out like it brings things from the like from the root they just erupt it has its own separate logic to it and i'm kind of finding that i don't always have the good answer for because like etiquette around weddings it's so based on all these millions of traditions like for example i learned just recently that you're supposed to keep the top of your wedding cake and put it in the fridge or or the freezer for like a year.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and then eat it on your one-year anniversary. I have heard that too.
Yeah, that is a thing.

Speaker 3 What? And so I'm sitting here in disbelief being like, okay, can you walk me through why?

Speaker 3 And there's the answer is no.

Speaker 1 No, it's just like there is, I'm sure, a reason, but it has been lost to time and everyone just does it because it's what you're supposed to do.

Speaker 3 And this is why I so rarely answer questions related to marriages or weddings because I'm just like, girl, all this is so confusing.

Speaker 3 Anytime there's like an arena in which the logic is like, because that's how we do it, I tend to short circuit a bit. And I'm like, uh-uh.

Speaker 3 But luckily for us, they are now like half a year out from this wedding. Okay.
And I mean, my question for this person would be like, what is stopping you from just asking?

Speaker 3 You know, like, hey, you know, I've always valued our friendship. I saw you got married recently or had a ceremony.
Congratulations.

Speaker 3 I was just wondering. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Like, I would have loved to attend. And because I value our friendship, I would just want, I'm interested to hear, like, you know, what's up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, absolutely.

Speaker 1 And those are the conversations that always feel, often feel, impossible to have, you know, because then you have your answer, you know, and it's like, if you're in this weird limbo space, but then that can be tough too, because you're building up resentment.

Speaker 1 Like, maybe this friend hasn't even thought about it and you're stewing still and like getting so upset.

Speaker 1 And, you know, sometimes too, the painful thing is that there are moments where you realize that maybe

Speaker 1 they don't think of you as much of a friend as you think of them.

Speaker 1 And that really taps into a lot of like deeply seated stuff. So I feel that in here, but it's also interesting, something that I noticed was

Speaker 1 this writer said, I know our mutual friends who also didn't receive any invites, right? So it's like, wait, how many people also didn't get invited?

Speaker 1 You know, if it's not just you, is that better or worse? Or you're like, you feel you're in a different echelon? And, you know, so that was interesting to me. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 also like okay so Ola Papi is saying like you need to have a conversation with this person John Paul Bremer is saying like find one of those mutual friends who didn't get an invite yeah DM them being like girl

Speaker 3 and this is why the separation is important exactly I'll be like girl isn't that crazy like what's going on I would just be fishing for like yeah data what what happened not wanting to know is so relatable sometimes it's just the idea of knowing is so scary and final because my instinct says that yeah your friendship probably has changed quite a bit over time

Speaker 1 they didn't even think to invite you and that's not something that's very pleasant to confront on a random afternoon but no absolutely not there's like a whiplash to it really where it's just like you have so thought of it as this one way and then suddenly not okay so the advice is reach out

Speaker 3 yeah ask why don't you ask why don't you ask yeah

Speaker 1 all right ola poppy I hit my artistic peak in college when I was doing an art minor and consistently taking classes, learning new skills, and being challenged to get better.

Speaker 1 I don't paint as much anymore.

Speaker 1 I hastily sold my favorite college-era painting, a huge watercolor on paper depicting stormy waves right after graduation for way too cheap to an acquaintance when I was broke.

Speaker 1 I've always deeply regretted it, especially because I know I couldn't make another one like it now. A few years ago, I messaged him explaining my regret and asking if I could buy it back.

Speaker 1 He sheepishly admitted he'd given it to a friend as a wedding gift, and when I asked if I could have the friend's name to reach out to him, he didn't respond.

Speaker 1 Fast forward to this month, the purchaser, who is also a musician, DM'd me asking permission to use my name in a song about said friend. The line is, I gave you my name's painting.
Oof, okay.

Speaker 1 The idea of a song about friendship is nice, and I don't mind from a privacy perspective, so I said yes. But what I really wanted to say was, I want my painting back.

Speaker 1 I still think about it and get sad. I've considered doing some investigative work and reaching out to the friend now that I have his name.
Should I? Is there something else I should do?

Speaker 1 I don't know why I feel so much grief over this painting, but I really do. It feels like a part of me got lost.
Thanks, Angsty Artist. Also, a moment for like the sign-offs for advice.

Speaker 3 I love them.

Speaker 1 Like how the art of deciding how you're going to sign off onto an advice piece you're sending in is, to me, something that should be studied.

Speaker 1 Oh, this is a bummer. Oh, it's so sad.

Speaker 3 Aww.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's like, to me, this is one of those rare questions where I have

Speaker 3 different answers to address the two different aspects of it.

Speaker 3 So in the beginning, you know, I also make visual art. I sell it, et cetera.
And to me, like, once I have sold it, it's unfortunate, but it's there.

Speaker 3 So, you know, like, I can't just be like, hey, I want that back. Like, we exchange currency for goods, et cetera, et cetera, fabric of society.
We kind of need to have that. And like, it sucks.

Speaker 3 Moving on from that probably isn't what this person had in mind, but they kind of have to.

Speaker 3 But then if my buddy didn't answer my query as to who bought it and then is like, hey, I made art about the situation. I would be like, oh, so your art kind of matters.

Speaker 3 Interesting. What about mine?

Speaker 3 I would be openly cranky about that. I would be like, I would still love to know who this person is because I would like to reach out, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 3 And so, yeah, like.

Speaker 3 First aspect of the whole thing to me is like, yeah, sucks. You sold it.
It's theirs.

Speaker 3 Second aspect of it is just like, this person needs to get some sass.

Speaker 3 I think.

Speaker 1 I would agree with that because, yeah,

Speaker 3 there's a level of audacity that I was, I was a little like, ooh, okay, wait, what?

Speaker 1 But then I think that's a thing that comes up a lot. Sometimes people do have the audacity.
And then it's like, but then you have to deal with that. You know, are you going to say something to them?

Speaker 1 Are you going to not? Like, it's hard. I get outraged all the time.
Like, I get outraged so easily.

Speaker 1 Like, I just, my, my poor boyfriend is just like listening to me being outraged constantly about things like, and this guy, you know, stopped in the middle of the sidewalk and he didn't move to, you know, whatever.

Speaker 1 I am very, I am very easily wronged.

Speaker 3 Yes. Actually, I'm in that community as well.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 But yeah, sometimes it does. It does suck because, yes, you're right.
The painting's gone. And I wonder too, and not to say like, just make another one because, you know, you...

Speaker 1 they've explained why that isn't a thing.

Speaker 1 But I don't know, it does also feel like maybe it's a little bit about this piece of them that they they don't feel they have access to anymore and that aren't going to have access to again.

Speaker 1 And this has become a little representative of that, which is tough. Yeah.
I mean, see, this is why I can't be an advice columnist because I would write back and I would say,

Speaker 1 you know, I, like, let's let's collab on a strongly worded

Speaker 1 letter. Let's show up at his house.

Speaker 3 Let's steal it. Let's do a heist.
The first olo poppy heist. Let's do a heist.

Speaker 3 Also, like,

Speaker 3 I just know that this song, and no, my apologies if I'm completely mistreating the situation. Maybe they're a lovely person.
The song probably sucks. Like, the song has got to be the most obnoxious.

Speaker 3 Like, yeah, yeah. I'm just imagining listening to it as this person being like,

Speaker 3 the painting that I want back is now in this SoundCloud.mp3 or whatever.

Speaker 1 It doesn't seem, yeah. I gave you Angsty Artist's painting.
Like, that's, I wonder what rhymes with that. Maybe it's not a rhyming kind of song.

Speaker 3 No, I know exactly what this song sounds like, unfortunately. Like, I've completely, it's one of those, like, talk-singing ones that's sort of like folksy-indy.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So

Speaker 1 I guess the question they're asking is if they should try and reach out to the person who now has the painting. And I don't know.
I mean, there's always the argument there's no harm in asking, but

Speaker 1 I feel personally I probably couldn't or wouldn't do it. I don't know.
What do you think?

Speaker 3 Well, what if we're running into wedding etiquette again, where it's just like, this was a wedding gift and like...

Speaker 1 It is also a little, because then you'd be blowing up the other person's spot, too, of like they gave you something you know they didn't buy it they like they went to the closet and they were like oh yeah

Speaker 1 they're like oh i have this this like painting that i you know that i mean i guess they did technically buy it you know but it's uh they didn't it wasn't like a specific wedding they just had it in their house

Speaker 1 maybe i'm being unkind to this person maybe this the the person who's who they sent it to actually came over and was like oh my god that's beautiful i love it and then this was a thoughtful present who knows who knows we can't extrapolate i would i would still ask i would just be like, hey, here's the situation.

Speaker 3 Especially once this person made a song about it. I would be like, well, now I'm.
Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 1 That's fair. And if they say no, then that's it.
We got to put it to bed.

Speaker 3 You got to move on.

Speaker 1 We got to put it to bed. Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. Our last question.

Speaker 1 Hola, Poppy. Like many queers, I have had more experience with bullies than I would prefer.

Speaker 1 So I'm a bit surprised that it's taken me a couple of years to realize that one of my good friends is undeniably a bully. Let's call him Tom.

Speaker 1 Also the art of aliases, as long as I'm like, I'm going to put their first and last name in this. Okay, Tom.

Speaker 1 I was introduced to Tom a couple years ago by a friend from college. He has a huge network of gay friends and was initially really kind, bringing my husband and I into his friend group.

Speaker 1 Through this group, we've met some of our dearest friends, but over the last year or two, the tone with Tom has changed.

Speaker 1 He started ridiculing my job, aspects of my character, spreading information about our attempts to have kids that we shared in confidence, etc.

Speaker 1 I, uncharacteristically for me, tried to be direct and had a conversation with him about it, but he flatly denied that he had done anything.

Speaker 1 I've also noticed him bully our friends, say horrible things about people we know behind their back.

Speaker 1 I know that the bullying comes from a place of insecurity, but I am too old to hang out with bullies. The problem is that he is still integral to our friend group and lives on our block.

Speaker 1 Should I remove him from my life and, in effect, remove myself from the group? Should I just ignore it? Should I bully him back? Poppy, please advise. This one's just side, Pete.

Speaker 3 Pete's like, look. Pete's like.

Speaker 1 I also appreciate that. Should I bully him back?

Speaker 3 I love that part so much.

Speaker 1 It's like an option. So let's lay out our options.
One of them is to bully him back.

Speaker 3 I know where that comes from too. Like, I very much fostered a community over time where I'll answer some of these letters and I'll be like, do it back.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 What if you just did it to him?

Speaker 3 Let's fight. This person, I mean, Tom sounds like he sucks.
Yeah. I don't want to be around Tom.
And like, I can just so clearly see Tom. I know what it's like to be around Tom.

Speaker 3 I've met many Toms in my life, and it doesn't get better. No.

Speaker 1 No. Tom's not waking up one day and being like, time to go on the apology tour.

Speaker 3 I've actually been really rude.

Speaker 1 And I think, too, that the really tough thing about passive aggression, which I, too, Midwestern, like, I come by it honest.

Speaker 1 The really tough thing about passive aggression is if you do what Pete did, which is try and be an adult about it, and you say, like, hey, this thing thing is bothering me that you did, that because of the passive aggression, you can just say, I didn't do that.

Speaker 3 And I think people like Tom absolutely know what they're doing. They always bake some plausible deniability into it.
They sort of...

Speaker 3 mask it with humor or it's just like especially in the gay community there's lots of just like well i'm just you know i'm reading i'm just being funny and it's just like no you're just being cruel like you're not like a celebrated drag queen who's doing like comedy roasts you're like we're just trying to eat lunch here and you're just like being mean yeah I know.

Speaker 1 And I think, too, like that, oh, it was just a joke, or it wasn't that deep. Or it's just like, it's so infuriating to deal with.

Speaker 1 And there's really no way out of it other than to just not really talk to that person.

Speaker 1 I feel like obviously you've gotten to the point where this is bothering you a lot and you find it unpleasant to be around this person.

Speaker 1 I mean, yeah, it does feel like maybe just don't talk to Tom anymore.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think too, you have to trust the way that people make you feel because I think like for me,

Speaker 3 I'm simultaneously someone who's very easily wronged but I'm also someone who will question if I'm right to feel wronged where it's just sort of like yeah but if I really go through the math here what did they really do did they mean it what if they were having a bad day like I will just find ways to just sort of like wiggle out of blaming someone for something yeah and sometimes you just have to be like I don't like who I am or the way I feel when I'm around this person.

Speaker 3 And I think that that is a huge sign that you shouldn't be friends with them. You shouldn't be hanging out as much as you do.

Speaker 3 And like, I know what they're saying when they say like, oh, but they're in the friend group. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I'm actually, I've gotten pretty good at like being able to still hang out with a friend group and just sort of ice one of them out. Totally.

Speaker 1 I feel like there's a middle ground. I feel like this, I feel like Pete feels like it's either continue to be to put up with being bullied by Tom or lose all of my friends.

Speaker 1 And it's like, there's probably a middle space there where you go, you still hang out with these friends and you just are cordial to Tom. You know, you are polite, but you don't lean in.

Speaker 1 You know, maybe let's stop scheduling one-on-one hangs with Tom.

Speaker 1 But like, you know, in a group setting, the group is there, but you don't, as you say, necessarily have to like really interact with this person just because they're around.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I've also gotten pretty good at finding little ways to stop someone's momentum when they're really trying to start their whole shtick of like saying cruel things about people or...

Speaker 1 Wait, please share. I need to know this.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'll just like look them in the eyes and be like, okay.

Speaker 3 Just like move on, like let them know that I've acknowledged and I'm now dismissing what you've just said and turning my attention elsewhere. Yeah.

Speaker 3 You kind of want to make it clear that you are hostile to this sentiment that they're bringing to you. Yeah.
You have to make it clear, like, this isn't going to land with me.

Speaker 3 And if we're going to talk like this, I'm going to go hang out with the adults. You know, like belittle it in a way and make them feel embarrassed for even saying something like that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I don't know. It sounds like Tom also is not very kind to the rest of the friend group.
Is it possible that everybody is having this dilemma separately?

Speaker 1 Not that I want to encourage gossiping about someone behind their backs, but I don't know. Like, it doesn't sound pleasant to be around.

Speaker 3 This is what I love about doing this with a fellow gossip is that we consistently find ways to just be like, okay, but let's talk to the friends.

Speaker 3 Maybe,

Speaker 1 oh gosh, I know, toxic. But also, Tom is toxic in this situation.
There's strength in numbers. Yes, they're sure.

Speaker 1 If everybody is privately like, oh, gosh, I wish I didn't have to be around Tom anymore, but I have to because of the group. And everyone's thinking that independently, I don't know.

Speaker 1 That also solves a problem.

Speaker 3 There's no greater dopamine rush than like talking to someone and sort of like tiptoeing towards being like, do we kind of both have this problem with someone?

Speaker 3 And then suddenly they're like, okay, right. Yeah.
Oh my gosh. I activate.

Speaker 3 There are lights in my brain that turn on in that situation where it's like, ugh. Yeah.
I'll be happy for days after this. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And honestly, like, if this person, if Pete had written in and with all of this and did not have the part where he tried to talk to Tom about it, then as you say, the answer would be to have a frank conversation.

Speaker 1 But you already tried to have a frank conversation with him, and he's not open to it.

Speaker 1 He's really doubling down on being the meanest person in the room. So, you know, adjust accordingly.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's always funny when these people in their letters sort of cut off what I would have said where they're like, by the way.

Speaker 1 They're like, I already actually did the thing that you would have advised me to do.

Speaker 3 So now.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 All right. I think that that wraps us here.
Thank you so much for coming in, John Paul. It's always a pleasure to talk to you, and I have loved being able to give advice alongside you.

Speaker 3 Thank you for having me. Anytime you want to join in on Ola Poppy, we can have Ola Chloe.

Speaker 1 You're going to regret saying that.

Speaker 3 So soon.

Speaker 3 You're going to have to move. All right.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much for coming again.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 5 Chloe Salmon is a director at the Moth. Her favorite Moth moments come on show days when the cardio is done, the houselights go down, and the magic settles in.

Speaker 5 This episode of the Moth Podcast was produced by Sarah Austin Janess, Sarah Jane Johnson, and me, Mark Zollinger.

Speaker 5 The rest of the the Moth's leadership team includes Sarah Haberman, Christina Norman, Marina Cluche, Jennifer Hickson, Jordan Cardinale, Caledonia Cairns, Kate Tellers, Suzanne Rust, and Patricia Oreña.

Speaker 5 The Moth podcast is presented by Odyssey. Special thanks to their executive producer, Leah Rhys-Dennis.
All Moth stories are true, as remembered by their storytellers.

Speaker 5 For more about our podcast, information on pitching your own story, and everything else, go to our website, themoth.org.

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