Jon Stewart on the Perilous State of Late Night and Why America Fell for Donald Trump

Speaker 1 WNYC Studios is supported by Clean My Mac.

Speaker 2 Ever get that dreaded your cloud storage is full alert? Me too. Turns out I was paying to store a bunch of files I didn't even need anymore.
That's where Clean My Mac comes in.

Speaker 2 Their brand new cloud cleanup feature scans your iCloud, Google Drive, and OneDrive accounts, safely and locally, and helps you spot the big space wasters you forgot you were carrying.

Speaker 2 You decide what stays and what goes. Free up gigabytes in just minutes, and yes, you can restore anything if you change your mind.

Speaker 2 Clean My Mac has a ton of features to help you make the most of your Mac, from its anti-malware engine to SpaceLens, which makes a detailed map of your storage that'll help you get rid of digital junk that's slowing down your machine and your life.

Speaker 2 I say this as someone who lives in fear of the delete button.

Speaker 2 Not everything deserves eternal storage, and Clean My Mac has been the most effective tool I've found to help me get my Mac back into shape. Get tidy today.

Speaker 2 Try it free for seven days and use promo code New Yorker to save an additional 20% on your purchase at cleanmymac.com. That's promo code New Yorker at cleanmymac.com.

Speaker 4 This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?

Speaker 4 Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at progressive.com.
Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates.

Speaker 4 Potential savings will vary, not available in all states.

Speaker 5 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Justin Wines.

Speaker 7 Whether you are a first-time wine drinker or a wine connoisseur, you're guaranteed to like the number one-selling luxury Cabernet from Justin.

Speaker 11 Since 1981, Justin Vineyards and Winery has been producing world-class Bordeaux-style wines from Paso Robles and are what put the Paso Robles region on the winemaking map.

Speaker 14 Wines like their flagship Red Blend Isosceles are perfect to enjoy with friends and family this holiday season.

Speaker 5 Shop all of their exceptional wines at justinwine.com and be sure to use the promo code RADIO20 to receive 20% off your order today.

Speaker 17 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Speaker 20 Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

Speaker 20 In September, right after Jimmy Kimmel was suspended from his late-night talk show, Jon Stewart went on the air with a special episode of The Daily Show.

Speaker 18 From Comedy Central, it's the all-new government-approved daily show

Speaker 18 with your patriotically obedient host, John Stewart.

Speaker 20 The joke, of course, was that they'd done a full rebranding, and the high style of MAGA was on display. Flags flying, jet fighters soaring, the studio slathered in gold, and the desk is gigantic.

Speaker 20 Stewart in a red tie looks like he's going to lose his lunch.

Speaker 18 We have another fun, hilarious

Speaker 18 administration-compliant show.

Speaker 20 He's so anxious, he's actually twitching.

Speaker 18 We're coming to you tonight from a real shithole

Speaker 18 from the crime-ridden cesspool that is New York City. It is a tremendous disaster like no one's ever seen before.

Speaker 18 Someone's National Guard should invade this place. Am I right?

Speaker 20 That night was a real reminder of why after 25 years plus, we still very much need Jon Stewart on the air. But compared to his early years on the show, the era of George W.

Speaker 20 Bush, this is a much more dangerous time for late night and for speech and for America. Kimmel nearly lost his job over a remark about MAGA in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder.

Speaker 20 The head of the FCC threatens broadcasters in a tone that sometimes sounds a lot like a mob boss. This administration supports free speech only insofar as it agrees with that speech.

Speaker 20 And Stewart is not too far from the hot seat himself. Comedy Central is now controlled by David Ellison, the Trump-friendly CEO of Paramount Skydance.

Speaker 20 So I sat down to hash this all out the other day with Jon Stewart at the New Yorker Festival.

Speaker 18 Hello. John Stewart.

Speaker 18 How are you?

Speaker 20 I am so pleased to have Jon Stewart here.

Speaker 18 Me too, John.

Speaker 18 I'm delighted.

Speaker 20 This is a man of New Jersey. Can I hear it for the people?

Speaker 18 That's it? That's it.

Speaker 18 That's the appropriate level of respect.

Speaker 18 Few cheers, couple of boos, most people indifferent. I understand.

Speaker 18 I've lived there.

Speaker 20 I want to begin.

Speaker 20 By reminding you of what happened not long ago when Jimmy Kimmel was tossed tossed off the air. You had to come up with a response to something very serious.

Speaker 20 And I want to know if you, and by the way, you weren't alone. Colbert also did.
John Oliver also. Was there any sense of coordination or conversation?

Speaker 18 Why you went to the state? No,

Speaker 18 I don't even have their numbers. I don't even know.

Speaker 18 No, we do have a text chain that goes along.

Speaker 18 I think everybody, look.

Speaker 18 We all understand that's a luxury.

Speaker 18 None of us erod a platform or any of those things, But we also understand that it's a meaningful luxury and that there is a certain amount of strength of a society that is able to withstand the smallest of ridicule.

Speaker 18 And when that goes away, when the leadership becomes, you know, the last time that that happened was I have a friend who did a show very similar to mine in Egypt, and he was exiled. And in

Speaker 18 America, we sort of assumed that satire was settled law.

Speaker 18 And

Speaker 18 to find out that it, along along with Dobbs, were going to be revisiting what we considered star aid decisis,

Speaker 18 you know,

Speaker 18 I think it rattled everyone to some extent, but it also presented great opportunity.

Speaker 18 And so I don't know that we've had as much fun as we did that Thursday morning coming up with all the stupid little shit that you see with, I mean, including like gold pictures and red ties.

Speaker 18 And, you know, it gave us some purpose. That being said, like, I want to be clear.
I don't, the victims of this administration are not the comedians.

Speaker 18 Like, we are a visible manifestation of certain things, but the victims are the victims, are the people that are struggling to have any voice and are being

Speaker 18 forcibly removed from streets by

Speaker 18 hooded agents. You know, those are the victims of this administration.

Speaker 20 You say that

Speaker 20 this is not the issue, but look, I remember when Putin came to power in 2000.

Speaker 18 Sure.

Speaker 20 The first thing he did was take a program that was a satirical program about politics called Kukli Puppets off the air. And people say, oh, he took the puppets off the air.
Within a couple of weeks,

Speaker 20 the news was off the air. Isn't it possible that this assault, however kind of herky-jerky and back and forth it might be, is tantamount to something else?

Speaker 18 When 7 million people show up in America on a weekend for anything, I mean, honestly, anything, you know something's going on. And this is,

Speaker 18 they are attempting to graft, I think, an alien culture onto this country. We're not Russia.
and their history of

Speaker 18 autocracy or dictatorship or those things. That doesn't mean we're not going to be in some kind of soft autocracy where

Speaker 18 news is controlled, but we have a lot of different avenues, and suppression creates opportunity. And

Speaker 18 a populace that is thirsty for inspiration and leadership and morality and integrity and lack of corruption, that's fertile ground for that opportunity.

Speaker 18 So, like, as bad as this is and it's fucking bad

Speaker 18 Like I knew it would be bad. I did not it was thing it was gonna be like flesh eating dick cancer bad like I

Speaker 20 That's that's an I yeah, you know how bad it is David Ellison just

Speaker 18 Paramount.

Speaker 20 Yes. And not only does he forgive me own your enterprise,

Speaker 20 he could also affect it. And he just hired Barry West to run CBS News.
So

Speaker 20 tell me what this means.

Speaker 18 Well, I wish you would mention that before I went into the dick cancer pen.

Speaker 18 This is not happenstance.

Speaker 18 This began with Richard Viggery doing

Speaker 18 a mail-in to try and get people to be conservative. This began with people buying AM radio stations and converting them to conservative talk radio.

Speaker 18 This began with Roger Ailes and the Nixon White House going, we will never allow this to happen to a Republican politician again.

Speaker 18 All of the institutions by which I mean education and media and news and academia and all those things that we relied on as a solid tentpost by which to build a decent society on,

Speaker 18 they were like, yeah, no.

Speaker 18 And they built a parallel universe of think tanks. and education and media and so that they could at some point just just flip a switch and move us over onto that track.

Speaker 18 Because what do these institutions have?

Speaker 18 They are the reference point for our decisions. What do you do? You quote, well, there's a study done by,

Speaker 18 and you use data and scientific method and other things to try and make as informed a decision as you can.

Speaker 18 But if you're a political movement, that believes that investing those institutions with authority is against your movement.

Speaker 18 The best thing you can do is build organizations that either tear down the credibility of those institutions or you build your own.

Speaker 20 But with respect, John, this is different.

Speaker 20 This is markedly different.

Speaker 20 It's one thing to find the Brookings Institution that was kind of liberal, and then you have the rise of the American Enterprise Institute.

Speaker 20 It's one thing to have a liberal newspaper and then a conservative newspaper. Fine.

Speaker 18 Fine.

Speaker 20 In fact, all the better in some ways.

Speaker 20 But this is what's going on now is different. And with respect, you're going to face it potentially with Paramount and the Daily Show.
Sure. What do you do?

Speaker 18 You don't compromise on what you do, and you do it till they tell you to leave. That's all you can do.

Speaker 18 That's all you can do.

Speaker 18 So

Speaker 20 I think the line that you gave before was: I'm not giving in, I'm not going anywhere, I think.

Speaker 18 I'm neurotic still. I'm not, you know.

Speaker 20 Your contract comes up in December. You're going to sign another one?

Speaker 18 I mean,

Speaker 18 we're working on staying. Look, the other thing to remember is it's not as clear-cut as all that.

Speaker 20 In other words, if it's up to you, you're staying.

Speaker 18 Oh, yeah, sure. Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 18 It's up to me, I'm sorry.

Speaker 20 How do you think CBS news will be affected? Does evening news even matter at this point in the

Speaker 20 media sphere that we live in?

Speaker 18 We are projecting things that we do not know. The ecosystem has changed.
The monetization of it has changed. I will tell you this.
It is a different ethos.

Speaker 18 But one thing we have to remember, and this is the hardest truth for us to get at, is that the institutions that we spoke about earlier have problems. They do.

Speaker 18 And if we don't address those problems in a forthright way, then those institutions become vulnerable to this kind of assault. Credibility is not something that was just taken.
It was also lost.

Speaker 18 And that is a part of this equation that has to be considered. And the Democrats have to consider that as well.

Speaker 18 There's a reason Donald Trump came to power, and that is that in the general populace's mind, government no longer serves the interests of the people it purports to represent.

Speaker 18 That's a broad-based, deep feeling. And that helps when someone comes along and goes, the system is rigged.
And people go, yeah, it is rigged. Now, he's a good diagnostician.

Speaker 18 I don't particularly care for his remedy.

Speaker 20 You know why you think Trump won?

Speaker 18 Because of that, because of the dissatisfaction of an analog system in a digital world. The distance between how you feel about the world and the world has never been larger.

Speaker 18 You know, we are victims of the circadian rhythms of social media. So, and social media is incentivized to what? Not connect us.

Speaker 18 And I've seen the Facebook commercial, and yes, it's true. If you do like a certain kind of cat, there will be other people that like that certain kind of cat, and you will connect with each other.

Speaker 18 But the purpose of social media is to keep you on its platform. That's it.
They want you on that platform. They want you on there as long as they could possibly have you.

Speaker 18 And the way that they have rigged our brains to figure it out is that outrage and anger and hate and hostility are much stronger drivers of engagement than anything else.

Speaker 18 Now, on the flip side of that, we have a political system designed in the 18, what? It's

Speaker 18 designed as an analog.

Speaker 18 What is the Senate? It's the cooling saucer of democracy. And what's Twitter? The thing that makes you want to rip people's eyes out.
And you put those together and it's not a good mix.

Speaker 18 And so he was able to harness the anger and catastrophizing of that

Speaker 18 as a way of taking over that other thing that we have.

Speaker 20 And you didn't find Joe Biden and Kamala Harris a good remedy for that in the election?

Speaker 20 That was called to set up lining.

Speaker 18 I thought they were great.

Speaker 18 Look what's going on with Mandani. You know,

Speaker 18 you finally got a guy in New York City who is getting people to vote in the affirmative for his positions, who is inspiring people and giving a certain amount of leadership.

Speaker 18 And what does the general status quo of the Democratic Party do with that?

Speaker 18 The guy is a communist. Like, they go along with the caricature of this man.
Look, we're in a bad situation, but it's not just Trump,

Speaker 18 it's the passivity

Speaker 18 of the Democratic Party to stick with a status quo that most people felt was

Speaker 18 not working.

Speaker 20 In January, about a week after Trump was inaugurated, you did a monologue on the Daily Show.

Speaker 20 It was, God knows, it was critical of Trump, but you didn't go after him so much as you went after a lot of his critics,

Speaker 20 or at least the more hypocritical and pearl-clutching ones.

Speaker 20 You seem to be saying that instead of crying crying Wolf, calling him a fascist for every executive order

Speaker 20 was to his benefit. I agree.
Do you think you underestimated how bad this would get?

Speaker 18 No, I stand by it because in that moment, that's how I felt. What I'm saying is the seeds of this destruction were not sown this year.

Speaker 18 They were sown by Citizens United. They were sown by corporations, our people.
They were sown by a Democratic Party that thinks it's okay

Speaker 18 for

Speaker 18 their Senate to be an assisted living facility. Like,

Speaker 18 respectfully, like,

Speaker 18 I mean,

Speaker 18 I could kick the shit out of the Senate.

Speaker 18 I don't mean this cynically. I mean this idealistically.
I mean this as like, we better get real about this very fast.

Speaker 18 And it's coming from a perspective of having worked with our government to try and get certain things done. I was stunned by

Speaker 18 certain Republicans that would tweet out, never forget the heroes of 9-11 versus how they would vote for their medical care.

Speaker 18 But I was also stunned by the Democratic Party leadership's passivity and being told over and over again, no, no, no, it's this, you have to go through regular order.

Speaker 18 When we have this this congressional hearing, I don't want you to be confrontational. You have to be nice.

Speaker 18 And then what we hopefully will get to do is put the first responders and the victims of 9-11, we'll be able to put their health care into the transportation bill, unless Mitch McConnell thinks he wants to trade that for the import-export tax that he really wants on petroleum.

Speaker 18 And I would go,

Speaker 18 that's crazy.

Speaker 18 And so this is coming from a place of, I've lived with this.

Speaker 20 Well, we're in the middle of a government shutdown, which is a different attitude this time than it was the last time.

Speaker 18 That's right.

Speaker 20 Does that make Chuck Schumer any braver now than he was before?

Speaker 18 No, and you can tell by like what Chuck Schumer's been told is you're losing, and people like your glasses to be higher up on your nose.

Speaker 18 And so, it's what I'm telling you is:

Speaker 18 here's what they're doing with us now:

Speaker 18 the strategy is authenticity, and suddenly

Speaker 18 people in Congress are cursing.

Speaker 18 Oh, and it seems so natural when Chuck Schumer curses.

Speaker 18 This is a shitty bill.

Speaker 18 I'm over it all, man. I'm over it all.
And I understand why people wanted to.

Speaker 18 blow it up and why it's so vulnerable to being taken over by a charismatic person that says, I understand how this is done.

Speaker 18 Like even the shutdown, which I'm glad that they stood up for something, but I still think the ACA is

Speaker 18 playing the Republican and the corporate game. It's basically just subsidies to insurance companies when what we need is health care.
And the ACA doesn't give you health care. It gives you...

Speaker 18 It gives you subsidies to get a coupon that maybe you can take to someone that then they'll give it to you and then there'll still be a deductible.

Speaker 18 40% of people in this country go without things like food because of their medical debt.

Speaker 18 And so, like, when the Democrats announce that they got the pharmaceutical companies to, out of the grace of their heart, allow us to negotiate the price on 10 different medicines, only 10, and that's a victory when we're subsidizing these motherfuckers by billions of dollars a year?

Speaker 18 No, no more. I'm done with it.

Speaker 20 I'm speaking with Jon Stewart, the comedian, actor, and host of The Daily Show. We'll continue in just a moment.
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

Speaker 1 WNYC Studios is supported by Quince.

Speaker 2 I don't know about you, but I love fall. Crisp mornings, apple picking, and an excuse to break out my favorite layering pieces from Quince.

Speaker 2 This season's lineup is simple, but smart and easy with Quince. $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like an everyday luxury, and wool coats that are equal parts stylish and durable.

Speaker 2 Their denim nails the fit and everyday comfort all at a fraction of what you'd expect to pay.

Speaker 2 And let's not forget that the holidays are right around the corner, and Quince has everything you'll need for gifts they'll love.

Speaker 2 Stellar knife sets, luxurious bath towels, an impressive line of skincare. It's going to be hard not to keep all this stuff for myself.

Speaker 2 Give and get timeless holiday staples that last this season with Quince. Go to quince.com slash radio hour for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
Now available in Canada, too.

Speaker 2 Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash radio hour to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash radio hour.

Speaker 1 WNYC Studios is supported by Whole Foods Market.

Speaker 4 You know that moment when you're planning Thanksgiving or friendsgiving and realize you need everything from turkey to green beans?

Speaker 4 365 by Whole Foods Market has you covered this year with Thanksgiving essentials for less. No antibiotics ever, birds, bring quality to the table at a great price.
And don't forget the sides.

Speaker 4 The 365 brand has all the must-haves to complete your gathering. Condensed soups, instant mashed potatoes, organic baking spices, and more.

Speaker 4 Enjoy so many ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market. This show is supported by Odoo.

Speaker 4 When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odu solves this.

Speaker 4 It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.

Speaker 4 You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out ODU at Odoo.com.
That's odoo.com.

Speaker 5 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Justin Wines.

Speaker 7 Whether you're a first-time wine drinker or a wine connoisseur, you're guaranteed to like the number one-selling luxury Cabernet from Justin.

Speaker 11 Since 1981, Justin Vineyards and Winery has been producing world-class Bordeaux-style wines from Paso Robles and are what put the Paso Robles region on the winemaking map.

Speaker 14 Wines like their flagship Red Blend Isosceles are perfect to enjoy with friends and family this holiday season.

Speaker 5 Shop all of their exceptional wines at justinwine.com and be sure to use the promo code RADIO20 to receive 20% off your order today.

Speaker 20 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick and I'm speaking today with Jon Stewart.

Speaker 20 Stewart was hardly the first political comedian on TV, but on the Daily Show, he pioneered something new.

Speaker 20 He delivered some of the sharpest political analysis on television, interviewing serious newsmakers in a format that was also consistently hilarious.

Speaker 20 Stewart helped launch the careers of Stephen Colbert, Trevor Noah, John Oliver, and many others.

Speaker 20 And in bringing journalism or something kind of like journalism to late-night entertainment, Stewart upped the game for the entire medium. I'll continue my conversation now with Jon Stewart.

Speaker 20 We grew up in New Jersey, but I grew up with another comedian, Bill Maher. I used to play basketball in a driveway with him.

Speaker 20 He was a local solar.

Speaker 18 You know, there's nothing better than playing basketball with short Jews. Yes, I have to tell you.

Speaker 18 Yeah.

Speaker 20 You can post up on them.

Speaker 18 We used to have a game at Gary Shandling's house.

Speaker 18 Literally, we were like, I think Al Franken might be Pete Maravich.

Speaker 18 Kevin Nealon would come by, and everybody would just be like,

Speaker 18 what? No!

Speaker 18 You can't do that.

Speaker 18 Yeah.

Speaker 20 Bill Maher

Speaker 20 is the comic political voice of the notion that the biggest problem the Democrats have is wokeism. How do you respond to Bill's approach to the world?

Speaker 18 Well, I don't know if that's just Bill's. I mean, I...

Speaker 20 It's shorthand for it, but wokeism is not something that enters your analysis of things for the most part no

Speaker 18 there is a real

Speaker 18 pressure that people feel on issues that they don't quite understand where they don't want to offend and it can have a uh censorious effect on discourse i've seen it and the left certainly has uh

Speaker 18 their

Speaker 18 like like when someone says to me like pregnant people i do go well it's i understand

Speaker 18 but like come on But it doesn't make you crazy. Like, yeah, if you'd be better to be like pregnant women and Dave.
Like, you don't have to, you know what I mean?

Speaker 18 Like, you don't have to do the whole thing. So, yeah, that gets a little out of control.
But the idea that that

Speaker 18 has the same

Speaker 18 effect on the world

Speaker 18 as like a rich country that isn't able to give its people health care, that's where I take

Speaker 20 him is

Speaker 20 the most politically effective, so-called the most politically effective advertisement for the Trump campaign

Speaker 20 was the one about trans people. You know, she is for them, he is for you.

Speaker 20 That was his

Speaker 18 answer.

Speaker 18 That's the commercial is simple as well.

Speaker 18 Like, yes, Donald Trump is for you

Speaker 18 if you are a convicted sex trafficker

Speaker 18 who should get transferred to a less bad prison because you're not going to name him. Donald Trump is for you if you have a jet that you will give him.

Speaker 18 And then, or Donald Trump is for you if you give billions to his campaign. And so he will allow you to bypass tariffs and not small businesses.

Speaker 18 Like, my problem is they don't know how to fight that effectively. They do not realize the game they are playing, I don't think, in my mind.
How do you mean?

Speaker 18 There is a relentlessness and of bad faith to the

Speaker 18 social media algorithm. It's, I'm trying to think, like, okay, here's a different analogy.

Speaker 18 If you go to a restaurant and the food is delicious, it's because they probably like add a little extra bunny or they throw a little salt in there, a little umami in there, maybe they throw a little sugar in the marinara, you know what I mean?

Speaker 18 And they're like, and you eat it and you're like, wow, that's decadent and beautiful, and I would like to come back here.

Speaker 18 But it's still within the realm of what we understand as the earthly tricks we play on each other

Speaker 18 but there are guys in lab coats who work for craft who are figuring out how to take the gland of like a beaver's anus and turn it into strawberry flavoring

Speaker 18 and then there's a bunch of other dudes that are checking the consistency of it and they're designing it to get past the prehistoric reptilian wiring of your brain so that you no longer understand that two bags of chips and a quart of ice cream might not be good for you in the long run.

Speaker 18 And social media is that.

Speaker 18 What we do is we communicate, and we sometimes use hyperbole, and we sometimes use puns and satire and like totis and all and parody to convey something, and it's cheating a little bit.

Speaker 18 But social media is ultra-processed speech

Speaker 18 in the same way that Doritos are food.

Speaker 18 It's designed to bypass the parts of your brain that keep you off it, that keep you from diving into those holes, from radicalizing yourself.

Speaker 18 That's what you're up against. They are designing these things in the lab to bypass our ability to collaborate and cooperate.

Speaker 20 When did these guys get so bad? You remember years and years ago?

Speaker 18 They always suck. Ah.

Speaker 20 No, but wait a minute.

Speaker 20 We believed or have believed that these guys, because they wore jeans and sneakers and they were kind of cool and said things like, don't be evil and so on and so forth.

Speaker 18 Isn't that something someone evil would say?

Speaker 18 It's like Peter Thiel. Peter Thiel is always going on about Satan.
Satan, it could be amongst us. It could be Greta Thunberg.

Speaker 18 And you'd be like, or it could be a guy who runs a company called Palantir.

Speaker 20 But wait a minute, you're forgetting the early part of these guys' career. Mark Zuckerberg is going to make it possible.
Sergey Brun was going to make it possible.

Speaker 20 If you're sitting in the desert somewhere where you didn't have access to a library, now you could reach Shakespeare on your phone. And this was amazing.

Speaker 20 And he was, everybody was going to be connected, and this would democratize the press.

Speaker 18 Yes.

Speaker 20 And they believed it. And a large part of us

Speaker 18 believed it. No, they all want to be the next guy.
They all just want to be the next must. They want to be the next person.
Look,

Speaker 18 we suffer from the same thing in that we're people. Like everything that we have that's great can be weaponized against us.

Speaker 18 Like nuclear power is the, you know, as Oppenheimer once famously said, what could go wrong?

Speaker 20 John, you've been on Rogan a couple of times? Yes. What did you think of that experience, being on John?

Speaker 18 I enjoyed being on Rogan. I think he's an interesting interviewer.
You know, there are right-wing,

Speaker 18 weaponized commentators whose sole purpose is to manipulate things to the benefit of the Bannon project. or the Project 2025.
Rogan's not that guy.

Speaker 20 What is that guy? How would you say that?

Speaker 18 That guy is a curious comic who fell into this thing that got fucking enormous. Maybe doesn't

Speaker 18 has opinions all over the political spectrum, but has

Speaker 18 tendencies that people on the left do not fit the aesthetic. He's a hunter.

Speaker 20 In fact, he's had people on who are kind of Nazi curious.

Speaker 18 That's not good. So have, I mean, I've interviewed Kissinger.
Like, it's, and he was carpet bomb curious. Like, I don't know what to say.
Like,

Speaker 18 it's very easy to castigate those where we're like, but he had an opinion a few years back that's,

Speaker 18 you know,

Speaker 20 but the difference is when he was carpet bomb curious, you didn't say, oh, yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 20 And what happens with Rogan sometimes is he'll hear somebody that's on the dangerous end of the spectrum and he'll just kind of soak it in.

Speaker 18 And so, and this is, I think this is a great point.

Speaker 18 And it's whose ebook who thinks that that information is dangerous to fight to get their point of view out there to counter what they think is misinformation.

Speaker 18 You can't just deputize people to say he should have known better and he should have prosecuted that point.

Speaker 20 But the reality is, John, is that it might be my job or the New York Times job or even your job, but I don't have the audience that Joe Rogan does.

Speaker 18 Then get it. Yeah.
Find people who do. Then go on though.
Then go on that show. Then do those things.
Like that is, it's not acceptable to just say,

Speaker 18 well, I don't like what he does. Then do it better.
Beat them at their own game. It's not enough to just complain that that guy got a platform and don't platform that guy.

Speaker 18 There's no one in this world right now that isn't platformed. And my biggest frustration, honestly, with a lot of scientists is they all go, RFK, oh, he's so fucked up.
That's terrible information.

Speaker 18 Oh, okay. What's the information?

Speaker 18 Nothing. Where are they? Get out there.
Fight.

Speaker 20 I got in trouble. I was given an interview to a German magazine.
I said I would interview Hitler. And I thought that was kind of non-controversial.

Speaker 20 Is there anybody that you wouldn't interview?

Speaker 18 It depends on what the expectation is also for the interview. Because remember, a lot of what we're doing right now is we're falling into that trap.

Speaker 18 that an interview, a good interview, will solve the problem.

Speaker 18 I've been on the side of the good interview. I've been on the side.
I interviewed Donald Rumsfeld.

Speaker 18 I lost more sleep over that interview than he did over the entire fucking war.

Speaker 18 And you know what he did afterwards? He wrote me a note saying that was fun. Yeah.

Speaker 18 Yep.

Speaker 18 Do you have any idea how that still hurts?

Speaker 18 He wrote, that was fun. I bet if we had known each other when we were younger, we would have been friends.

Speaker 20 John, what did you you think of the recent

Speaker 20 business of comedians going to Riyadh and being paid a lot of money? What did you think of that?

Speaker 18 I don't touch other people's money. And, you know,

Speaker 18 it's hard, man. I want to fix my house.
I want to operate with integrity, but I don't want to gatekeep. Like, I'm not...
I don't go to the tree of hilarity and get visited by the fathers of.

Speaker 18 And I think a lot of comics who came out and really shit on those guys, like, I know a couple of them, and I know them actually to be like garbage humans. So

Speaker 18 I would have preferred if they would have just come out, though, and said, it's money, and not like, it's a way to start a conversation. Like, would you have started the conversation for $2,500?

Speaker 18 Well, then that's, you know, that's the difference.

Speaker 20 Look, I worked for Apple.

Speaker 18 Like, there's a lot of people who believe that Apple is exploitative in a way that's horrific. You know, we all have our lines that we are willing to cross.

Speaker 18 Like, we get into a problem when we're unforgiving in any way. We offer no grace.
And that doesn't mean that I don't have lines that I draw that if people cross it, I won't do.

Speaker 18 But I do try to not be so rigid in the way that I think society has become. And if it goes back to the- Do you know where the lines are ahead of time? No.

Speaker 20 Because, I mean, as we started the conversation, you're facing a complicated situation at Paramount. Sure.
And you know what you won't do.

Speaker 20 But if you see something else happening in the company, do you know where those lines are?

Speaker 20 Like with the news.

Speaker 18 Yeah, they've already done things that I'm upset about.

Speaker 18 But then if I had integrity, maybe I would stand up and go, I'm out. Or maybe the integrity thing to do would be to stay in it and keep fighting in the foxhole.
Like I love a good argument.

Speaker 18 I love differing points of view in all.

Speaker 18 in all facets of things, but I also love grace. I've got people in my family that are to the right of Attila the Hun.
And when people tell me, like, how can you platform that person on your show?

Speaker 18 I go, I platform my uncle every fucking Thanksgiving.

Speaker 18 And by the way, I love him.

Speaker 18 He's a three-dimensional human being who has qualities that I really admire, things about him. And we've lost that.
We've lost the ability to love people

Speaker 18 because we litmus test at every point,

Speaker 18 in every single moment.

Speaker 20 John, you've always struck me as an idealist, an American idealist. And I remember around 9-11,

Speaker 20 you said the view from your place

Speaker 20 was the towers.

Speaker 20 And then you said, now I have a view of the Statue of Liberty.

Speaker 18 And it was a terrific terrace.

Speaker 20 And that was a really idealistic thing to say about America in many ways,

Speaker 18 small and large. I believe it.

Speaker 20 You still do.

Speaker 18 Absolutely.

Speaker 20 Absolutely.

Speaker 18 We, this is,

Speaker 18 and how can you not believe it? Because

Speaker 18 think of the amazing people that you see every day. Think of the quiet activism of living pleasantly.
There's more good than bad. I always will believe that.

Speaker 18 I always will believe that the odds are in our favor.

Speaker 20 Always.

Speaker 20 I'm talking talking with Jon Stewart, a conversation that was recorded at the New Yorker Festival. We'll continue in just a moment.

Speaker 21 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Dell.

Speaker 21 Introducing your new Dell PC, powered by the Intel Core Ultra Processor. It helps you handle a lot, even when your holiday to-do list gets to be a lot.

Speaker 21 Because it's built with all-day battery, plus powerful AI features that help you do it all with ease, from editing images to drafting emails to summarizing large documents to multitasking.

Speaker 21 So you can organize your holiday shopping and make custom holiday decor and search for great holiday deals and respond to holiday requests and customer questions and customers requesting custom things and plan the perfect holiday dinner for vegans, vegetarians, pescatarians, and Uncle Mike's carnivore diet.

Speaker 21 Luckily, you can get a PC that helps you do it all faster, so you can get it all done. That's the power of a Dell PC with Intel Inside, backed by Dell's Price Match Guarantee.

Speaker 21 Get yours today at dell.com slash holiday. Terms and conditions apply.
See Dell.com for details.

Speaker 5 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Justin Wines.

Speaker 7 Whether you're a first-time wine drinker or a wine connoisseur, you're guaranteed to like the number one-selling luxury Cabernet from Justin.

Speaker 11 Since 1981, Justin Vineyards and Winery has been producing world-class Bordeaux-style wines from Paso Robles and are what put the Paso Robles region on the winemaking map.

Speaker 14 Wines like their flagship Red Blend Isosceles are perfect to enjoy with friends and family this holiday season.

Speaker 5 Shop all of their exceptional wines at justinwine.com and be sure to use the promo code RADIO20 to receive 20% off your order today.

Speaker 1 WNYC Studios is supported by Apple TV.

Speaker 22 It's 1972. A young British family is attempting to sail around the world when disaster strikes.
Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks in seconds.

Speaker 22 All they have left is a life raft and each other. This is the true story of the Robertson family and their fight to survive, hosted by me, Becky Milligan.

Speaker 22 Listen to Adrift, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.

Speaker 21 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by ATT. There's nothing better than feeling like someone has your back and that things are going to get done without you even having to ask.

Speaker 21 Like your friend offering to help you move without you even having to offer pizza and drinks first. It's a beautiful thing when someone is two steps ahead of you, quietly making your life easier.

Speaker 21 Staying connected matters. That's why in the rare event of a network outage, ATT will proactively credit you for a full day of service.
That's the ATT guarantee.

Speaker 21 Credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more, or for wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more, caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers.

Speaker 21 Must be connected to impacted tower at onset of outage, restrictions and exclusions apply. See ATT.com slash guarantee for full details.
AT ⁇ T, connecting changes everything.

Speaker 20 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, and I'm David Remnick. Jon Stewart has always insisted that he's a comedian, a performer, not a journalist.

Speaker 20 But a generation of viewers came up saying that they got their news from Jon Stewart.

Speaker 20 He was also funny enough that at least early on, he was able to appeal to viewers who didn't always agree with his politics, which skewed distinctly liberal.

Speaker 20 For people who do agree with those politics, Stewart became a voice of authority, of reassurance in dark times.

Speaker 20 And back in 2016, Some fans really implored him to challenge Hillary Clinton and run for president.

Speaker 20 And much more recently, the radio host Charlemagne the God, who's become something of a Democratic power broker himself, suggested quite seriously that Jon Stewart get in the game for 2028.

Speaker 23 He's a celebrity who actually knows what they're talking about. We've seen him get legislation and stuff, you know, passed before.
Like we know where his heart is.

Speaker 23 He'd be somebody I'd like to see really get in the race and disrupt things in 2028.

Speaker 20 I'll continue my conversation now with Jon Stewart.

Speaker 20 You mentioned idealists in the Democratic Party and figures who are just not up to the task.

Speaker 20 You mentioned Mom Donnie for one. Who do you see on a national level who has promise as a national leader that you could get behind?

Speaker 20 You have 20 minutes.

Speaker 20 Somebody just said you.

Speaker 18 Oh.

Speaker 18 Have we really gotten to that point?

Speaker 18 I do understand. You know what is interesting?

Speaker 18 That's also a function of frustration.

Speaker 20 The cry of desperation.

Speaker 18 You know what it is?

Speaker 20 Because

Speaker 18 I'm other.

Speaker 18 I'm none of the above. Years ago,

Speaker 18 I won a poll. It was most trusted newsman in America.
The poll was like, it might might have been Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw,

Speaker 18 Rather,

Speaker 18 Diane Sawyer, and me.

Speaker 18 And I was, I'm none of the above, like, but what a dildo rolled in glitter could have won that poll.

Speaker 18 I have never, in the audiences that come into the show, seen them so thirsty for leadership.

Speaker 18 And so the none of the above, the Democratic Party is ripe for what happened to the Republican Party in 2016.

Speaker 18 But hopefully, it will be somebody who uses that power for good and not for self-aggrandizement and not for their own

Speaker 18 gratification.

Speaker 20 As somebody, I think this was, I think Elaine once said to Jerry on this show that as someone on the fringe of the humor community,

Speaker 20 do you think Donald Trump is funny?

Speaker 18 Funny, ha ha?

Speaker 18 I think he has a performer's cadence.

Speaker 18 And

Speaker 18 it would be funnier if he didn't also control the army.

Speaker 20 But what's the gift? Because it's not nothing.

Speaker 18 There is

Speaker 20 something that works for him with an audience. Yeah.
What has he got?

Speaker 18 He knows how to channel the frustrations of an audience. He knows how to read a room.
He knows what the room is feeling, and he can articulate it back to them. And they understand it.

Speaker 18 There is an undeniable connection between him and his audience to the point where the normal rules of engagement don't apply.

Speaker 18 And the Democrats, unfortunately, continue to be Wiley Coyote in the Acme, and they think, they always think they got him. Oh, if he's convicted of 34 felony counts, there's no way he'll win.

Speaker 18 Oh, we got him now. He just got indicted on.
And every time Donald Trump just walks in and goes, meep, meep.

Speaker 20 So then what catches the Roadrunner?

Speaker 20 What puts an end to this?

Speaker 18 What catches the Roadrunner is to offer something other than not him,

Speaker 18 is to offer something that's not just the negative. It's not just negative space.
We are stuck in a pattern where the Democratic Party has bought into

Speaker 18 an agenda over 40 years that also bought into supply-side economics and the general neoliberal vision of how things go and that the only way workers are ever going to get anything is just you just got to unionize better.

Speaker 18 Just poor people need better lobbyists. You know, they need a coherent vision.
For whatever you think of Donald Trump, he presents to his audience a coherent vision.

Speaker 18 It's not one that I want to live in. It's not one that I think makes America great.
It's not one that I think is even endemic to how America ever really was.

Speaker 20 So this is a question from the audience. John and David, you've both been sounding the alarm about the state of American democracy since 2016.

Speaker 20 After nearly a decade of saying the sky is falling, do you think that people are hearing you at all?

Speaker 18 Why even write that as a question? Why don't I just, dear David and John, why don't you just die?

Speaker 18 Yeah. Why do you even get up in the morning?

Speaker 20 The thought occurs to me.

Speaker 18 All day long with the democracy this.

Speaker 20 You got an answer?

Speaker 18 It doesn't matter. I control what I can control.
It doesn't matter if people, people can say, like, do you think what you do is effective? I have no fucking idea. I just do what I have to do.
It's

Speaker 18 if you don't develop a barometer. for morality or integrity for yourself and let that inform how you live, then you're at the whim of what you think other people view you as.

Speaker 18 And I have no control over that. I have no control over how people.

Speaker 20 Do you think by going into other forms, podcasts in particular, you've reached different audiences? Do you think that you're reaching them in a different way?

Speaker 18 I don't know. That's the thing about communication is you don't, I don't know.
The only people I talk to live in my house.

Speaker 18 Do you get what I mean? Like people say, like, what's it like to be on TV? And you're like, it's like not being on TV. It's, you can see me, but I can't see you.
I don't know how I affect you.

Speaker 18 Like, you just don't know.

Speaker 18 I wish I knew. Believe me.
Or maybe I don't. Like, it could, it actually could be hurting.
Like, I don't know.

Speaker 20 What's it been like for you to

Speaker 20 think and talk about what's been happening in Gaza for the last two years?

Speaker 18 How have you been affected by it? Super fun at Passover.

Speaker 18 It's, It's a really fraught and complicated emotional issue, obviously, for a lot of Jews. But again,

Speaker 18 I try to speak as best I can,

Speaker 18 in my opinion,

Speaker 18 as honestly as I can. And if that means

Speaker 18 upsetting certain people, I'm always open to the conversation.

Speaker 18 But I have very strong opinions about the horror of what I see over there on all sides. I'm on Team Human.

Speaker 18 And I don't think that,

Speaker 18 look, I grew up, man, as David. We were all David.
Not remnant, obviously,

Speaker 18 but biblical.

Speaker 18 And I think feeling like David became Goliath was a hard thing to

Speaker 18 counsel for myself. And a lot of people disagree.

Speaker 18 And listen, you bring this up and immediately, you know, you're ignoring in 1954, they feel you like, I really don't, like, I get it, but I'm like right now,

Speaker 18 there's death and sadness and starvation and horror. And I just don't, I don't think it's

Speaker 18 I don't think it's human. And I don't know what happened.
And I don't know how we can do that. And it's a failure of the world.
And it's a failure of humanity.

Speaker 18 And it's the saddest thing that I can think.

Speaker 18 And by the way, the same shit's going on in Sudan and in the Congo and in all kinds of other places that don't have access to the kinds of information and light that we see.

Speaker 18 And it's articulated with us. And it's going on in Ukraine.
And like,

Speaker 18 you know, we're.

Speaker 18 This is it. Like, this is all we got.

Speaker 18 And if we can't figure this out, it's, it's mind-boggling.

Speaker 20 This being life on Earth.

Speaker 18 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 18 You know, you hate to get, but like when you get to be older, you do start thinking like, oh, I'm going to, like, I won't be here, but.

Speaker 20 Your kids are in their late teens, 20s.

Speaker 18 That I know about. Yeah.

Speaker 18 Oh, no, you're right. That is right, actually.

Speaker 18 Do they watch you?

Speaker 20 Do they watch you on TV?

Speaker 18 No.

Speaker 18 They don't even watch me in the house.

Speaker 18 They don't. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get them to look at you? It's very hard.

Speaker 18 But

Speaker 20 I assume if they were in this room, and I know

Speaker 20 my kids in this room would say half of this conversation is irrelevant because they're not watching cable TV. Sure.

Speaker 20 They're not necessarily reading a magazine with 10,000-word profiles and gag cartoons.

Speaker 18 You and I operate a blockbuster kiosk inside a Tower Records.

Speaker 18 There's no question.

Speaker 18 There's, yeah, we are, we are, we are definitely like, we're the guys out there who are like, extra, extra.

Speaker 18 So, yeah, no, they, they live in a completely different universe. And it gives me hope.
And I don't know how you feel about this, but like, in the way that social media is like poison to me, right?

Speaker 18 I'm hoping that they're, that the human spirit and the ability to sort of adapt and inure yourself to the new technology, that it won't affect them in the same way that I think it affects me, that it won't be as corrosive.

Speaker 18 I don't know that that's what it'll be, but I hope that.

Speaker 20 Final question:

Speaker 18 Sagittarius.

Speaker 20 Your present, your pression.

Speaker 20 The Mets.

Speaker 20 What accounts for your love for the Mets?

Speaker 18 I'm a loser.

Speaker 18 And losers

Speaker 18 love to lose.

Speaker 18 My family is from Brooklyn and the Bronx. And so my mother's side of the family were Yankee fans.
My father's side of the family were...

Speaker 20 That was my wife.

Speaker 18 So what happened was when the Dodgers left to go to LA, you weren't allowed to flip your allegiance. You just had to wait.

Speaker 18 And so when the Mets came, that was the, so it was really a birthright more than it was.

Speaker 20 Well, as a Yankee fan, I wish you all the luck in the world. Jon Stewart, thank you.

Speaker 18 Thank you, Daddy.

Speaker 18 Thank you for this. That was lovely.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.

Speaker 20 Jon Stewart.

Speaker 20 We spoke last week at the New Yorker Festival, and I want to send a special thank you to our colleagues who put the festival together, including Catherine Sterling, Amanda Miller, Julia Rothschild, Nico Brown, Michael Etherington, and so many more.

Speaker 20 Thank you to all my colleagues.

Speaker 17 The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Speaker 17 Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

Speaker 19 This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer, with guidance from Emily Botine and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barrish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

Speaker 17 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Charina Endowment Fund.

Speaker 14 Imagine being the wizard of your home.

Speaker 24 With Xfinity Wi-Fi, you can boostify speeds for the moments that count and magically pause Wi-Fi to any device.

Speaker 24 And now you can cast a spell to stop time and keep your internet bill the same for five years with the Xfinity five-year price guarantee. Equipment included, no contracts or commitments.

Speaker 12 Xfinity, imagine that.

Speaker 24 And see Wicked for Good only in theaters November 21st. Restrictions apply select plans only.

Speaker 18 The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft.

Speaker 18 But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our U.S.-based restoration specialists will fix it guaranteed or your money back.

Speaker 18 Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans, or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock.
Save up to 40% your first year.

Speaker 18 Visit lifelock.com/slash special offer. Terms apply.