Alan Cumming on “The Traitors” and His Brush with Reality Television

WNYC Studios is sponsored by Intuit TurboTax. Taxes was feeling stuck trying to squeeze in getting tax help but never having enough time.
Now, Taxes is getting a TurboTax expert who does your taxes from start to finish. While they work on your taxes, you get real-time updates on their progress.
And you get the most money back guaranteed. Get an expert now on TurboTax.com.
Only available with TurboTax live full service. Real-time updates only in iOS mobile app.
See guarantee details at TurboTax.com slash guarantees. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
Fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds.
Visit Progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.
Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
Sammy Hagar. The best of all worlds.
Finish what we started.

Nine shows, April 30th through May 17th.

Toll be live at Park MGM.

Sammy Hagar, Michael Anthony, Joe Cetriani, Kenny Arnapp.

Rate this await.

A deep dive into the Van Halen years.

Plus solo, Montrose, Chicken Foot, and more.

Tickets at Ticketmaster.com.

Sammy Hagar.

It's time to finish what we started in Las Vegas residency. Listener supported.
WNYC Studios. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.
A co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.
I'm David Remnick. Plenty of actors light up a room, but Alan Cumming is more of a disco ball reflecting every possible angle of show business.
That's how the critic Emily Nussbaum introduced Alan Cumming when they sat down at the recent New Yorker Festival.

And he does seem to do it all. He acts in mainstream dramas like The Good Wife, as well as more indie projects like his one-man version of Macbeth.
Cumming is a Broadway legend. He also owns a nightclub.
He recorded a duet about Scottish independence with a Gaelic rapper. His memoir, Not My Father's Son, was a bestseller, and he stars in the Emmy-winning reality show The Traitors on Peacock.
Here's Alan Cumming at the New Yorker Festival, speaking with staff writer Emily Nussbaum. So straight out of Scotland, but eternally beloved in New York, welcome Alan Cumming.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
So for anybody who hasn't seen it, Traders is a reality show that stars reality stars. Mostly, yeah.
There's a lot of people from the reality universe, as well as some random famous people. It's sort of, you know, celebrities, and they all go to a castle, and it's supposed to be my castle.'s not and i pretend it is and we do these you know they play this game it's basically um the parlor game mafia yeah yeah so who is this guy who owns this castle like did you think at all about him as a character does he have a backstory does he i mean i think of him absolutely as a character.
You know, I think of him as this sort of combination

of a dandy scottish layered slash sort of james bond villain slash sort of eccentric old-fashioned nut and who has this big castle and like or like that um film clue or something you know it's got all those combinations of these very theatrical camp in the in the true sense of camp the sort of the wit and the and the sort of sardonic kind of camp and he's sort of imposing and scary but not mean I sort of try not to engage with the contestants because of that. Like in filming, I mean, it's getting harder because they see me outside and I say things like this afterwards.
But when we're at the time, I think I want them to be a little scared of me because I have to sort of shout at them quite a lot to tell them to be quiet and things. It gets out of control sometimes.
Like in this new season I actually thought I was going to have to break up a fight and I'm not I don't do that very often. No, but I mean I thought that in one of the round tables it got so brutal that, you know people get so passionate about it and it was scary and I have to kind of you know be really firm with them and I have to, they have, so I think

being chatty and sort of talking between takes doesn't, you know, it's sort of like being and staying in character in a way. Well, good morning, my ever decreasing circle of friends.
Last night, MJ, Kate, Trishel, and Parvati were hung out to dry, but it was Bergy who suffered the final devastating blow, brutally dispatched by the traitors. Aww.
Players, despite the loss of Bergy, we must let bygones be bygones. By.
Gone. Oh, my God.
Oh, Lord. Savage.
Soon, players, you must turn your attention to today's mission. You'll be taking a little trip to my, well, let's call it a holiday home.
I have a guest who's currently staying there who'll help you settle in. And after all, who doesn't enjoy a little country escape? Oh God.
Escape, escape. I think it's the cabin.
Oh no. Head down there and I'll meet you afterwards.
À la prochaine. So what was your perspective

on reality television before you made this show?

Zero,

really. I didn't really, I mean, I was

once in a while on a plane, I would

watch the Kardashians

or something or catch an episode of

the Housewives, but not at all.

It wasn't, I never watched

it. And it just wasn't, I don't know,

just wasn't my thing.

Never really engaged with it.

Still don't.

Did you disapprove of it?

No, I don't.

I mean, yes.

I was a bit judgy.

I mean, I think I,

the thing I don't like about it,

the thing I don't like about a lot of those shows

is that they laud and therefore encourage bad behavior and lack of kindness. That's what I don't like.
Thank you. So when people on these shows are mean, what they're doing is really aping the behavior that probably happened to them.
Probably at school someone was mean to them. And now that they have power because they have a disguise and they have a sort of a platform, they're basically not breaking the cycle and they're just repeating that bad behavior.
And I don't like it. And I think the great thing I like about the traitors is that it doesn't do that.
It makes people have to work together. Of course, they do terrible things to each other and they're treacherous, but it's not, it's about the game aspect rather than just being you know, a meanie and just flinging wine at each other and stuff like that.
So, yeah, I actually, this is a complete left field hilarious turn in my life and career to be hosting this show and I really like it don't get me wrong I love it it's such fun and also it has brought me many great things you know other things have happened because of the success of this like when you're successful in one thing it usually has a sort of knock-on effect in the other parts of your life. And I've been around the block

long enough to recognise that your

career, not that I've ever

been in the doldrums,

but you have peaks.

And less

big peaks.

This is the New Yorker

Radio Hour. More to come.
WNYC Studios is supported by Pulitzer On The Road, the official podcast of the Pulitzer Prizes, now back with its second season. Each spring, 23 prizes are awarded for distinguished journalism, books, drama, and music.
Pulitzer on the Road is bringing conversations with many of those prize winners to you. In each episode, guests reveal how much labor and risk, heart, and imagination go into creating their work.
You'll hear from novelist Jane Ann Phillips, film critic Justin Chang, and columnist Vladimir Karamorza, and so much more. Season two of Pulitzer on the Road is out now.
Listen to Pulitzer on the Road wherever you get your podcasts. WNYC Studios is supported by the United Nations Refugee Agency.
Right now, refugees from Ukraine, Sudan, and beyond face impossible choices. Pack winter coats or pack more food.
Carry extra clothes or carry more water. Take another blanket or take more diapers.
These aren't abstract choices. They're decisions families are making at this very moment.
UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency, is there, bringing shelter, protection, and food to families whose lives were turned upside down. Your donation will reach a refugee family within 72 hours.
Go to unrefugees.org slash donation to make your gift. WNYC Studios is supported by Quince.
I love the finer things in life, but can I always afford to surround myself with luxury goods? Not until I found Quince I couldn't. Quince has all the things you've longed for at prices you never thought possible.
Gorgeous washable silk pajamas, cool leather jackets, beautiful linens, adorable Mongolian Hashmi or baby sweaters, and so much more, all at 50 to 80% less than other luxury brands. How do they do it? Well, Quince partners directly with top factories, cutting out the middleman and passing those savings along to us.
And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices, along with premium fabrics and finishes. Honestly, my favorite item from Quince? The linen sheets.
I've always loved linen, but I could never justify the cost from other luxury brands. With Quince, I sleep easy.
Give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com slash radio hour for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
That's quince.com slash radio hour to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash radio hour.
WNYC Studios is supported by Articulated, a podcast from the Smithsonian's Archives of American Art.

This season, catch up with four trailblazing artists who have gone their own ways to create and chronicle community.

From Anita Field's Osage Ceramics and Leo Tanguma's Chicano Murals,

to Lenore Chin's Communal Documentation and Pat Steer's Bold Paintings,

you'll hear from legends who continue to push the limits of art. Available wherever you get your podcasts.
You actually appeared on a very different kind of reality show that you talk about in your memoir called Who Do You Think You Are? That was the name of it, right? Where it was a genealogy show. Who Do You Think You Are.
And in that you were the subject. You were on the other side of the camera.
And I'm wondering, looking back on that experience, how you feel about it, whether you feel good about it, whether you feel ambivalent or if you feel regrets and whether you learned anything from it. I certainly learned stuff from it.
I, well, it happened When they asked me I remember thinking Oh this is the best thing that's happened to me About being famous Because there was a mystery in my family And they ask you if you'd like to be a part of it And then they go away and research you for a while A couple of months And they come back and say yes we want to do it and then they say and we're actually going to feature this part of this area of your family and so there was this mystery in my family and I just remember thinking I'm going to be able to because I'm famous and the BBC's research and all the things are going to be able to that will make my mum have this knowledge that she's never had about what happened to her father and what a great gift that is and then you know a month later i was like this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me about being famous and i because i had to call up my mom and tell her something truly awful which was that her father had died in malaysia playing russian roulette

yeah and i met you know someone who had known him told me that in this little cafe in malaysia and it was it was i mean i don't regret it because i feel the truth is better than not knowing even if the truth is hard

and

it made a lot of sense to a lot of things and I just think it was you know but what what was awful even more awful was at the time that this was happening my father because he thought that the show because the show said they asked asked me if they could interview him. And I said, yes, of course, whatever.
But I don't want him to be on the show. But just because they were going to research, they researched, ask all your aunties and uncles and all these people.
And so he knew that I was, he refused to be interviewed for it. But he, and I didn't know how to get hold of him because we were estranged.
was estranged from us for decades but they got him and he refused to be interviewed even just for the research but then he knew i was doing it so because he thought i was going to find out something he preempted it and and got reached out to my brother and told me told him to tell me that I was not his biological son and that happened the

night before I started filming the thing when I found out my grandfather died from playing Russian roulette so all the way through this thing I was having to deal with my father again for the first time in decades and you know that's what my book it made a good memoir I suppose but that what my book's all about, this sort of duality and just how awful that was. It was awful.
I really am sideswiped. I didn't see that one coming at all.
What state of mind must he have been in to be getting his kicks from being in some little bar putting a gun to his head. I feel really sad for him.
Being told on camera that your grandfather died playing Russian roulette is a lot. It's not just like, oh, you know, your great-great-great-aunt was a minister to Queen Elizabeth and the blah-blah.
And you're like, how fascinating. It was really, and also it was so near, you know.
It was so close. He's one generation away.
And so, but as I say, I don't regret it. I have no regrets actually.
You were raised in a very abusive household in a rural Scottish estate where your father was the caretaker. And then you escaped and you trained to become an actor and you achieved success relatively quickly in your career.
And I wanted to ask a little bit about what that first dose of attention was like for you. Well, I think what's interesting about becoming famous is there's no, you don't get lessons on it at drama school, you know, and I was also coming from a culture where celebrity is not king, like it is here.
It was more shocking to me. I mean, obviously I knew famous people as, you know, there were famous people, but it wasn't quite, it happened so fast and it happened, I was so young.
And also, you know, when you become famous, for me, what being famous is, is that people starting to be interested in you as you and your private life as much, if not more than your work. And so I wasn't ready for that because I didn't, there were areas of my life, like my relationship with my father that I couldn't even talk about, let alone talk, share it with a journalist or anything.
And so that was what was hard for me was just this interest in me as a person aside from me as a performer and I'm really glad that it happened you know that I sort of was famous in Scotland and then I ran away and moved to London and I started to be famous in London and then I sort of ran away and went to America and I started to be famous in America so it's kind of gone like this and I've got um you know I'm now quite used to it and it's sort of such a part of my life. But back then it was really overwhelming.
I mean, it is still overwhelming. I mean, I was just talking about this the other day that when people ask me, but what is it like to be famous? What does that mean to you? I always say there are many great things about it.
I get to do the work I want to do. I get to meet incredible people.
But also, you have to live with such a huge level of self-consciousness every time you leave your home. And that is a lot.
Is there advice that you would give to somebody? I'm sure you've met people on the cusp of fame when they get famous early. Do you offer them any guidance? I mean, my only thing is this just not be coy to I was coy about certain things in my life and it's blew up in my face and also you know I think I became famous in the sort of 80s actually in Scotland and then in the 90s and in Britain as a whole and that was a time as it was a time of huge the tabloids were at the height of their awfulness and so all those things that you hear about like people raking through your trash cans and door stopping you and your family and your exes and shouting through your letterbox and all these things that all happened to me and I feel like that was because I wasn't ready but also also I sort of felt that if I didn't give everything away

and was coy about certain things, it would stop people speculating.

And actually, it was the opposite.

It just made them more and more interested and more and more fascinated.

I mean, and I think that in life in general, actually, I suppose,

just sort of authenticity and openness are two qualities

that will only make your life better.

Alan Cumming, speaking with staff writer Emily Nussbaum

at the New Yorker Festival.

You can watch highlights from the festival at newyorker.com

and subscribe to The New Yorker at newyorker.com as well.

We've been interviewing actors, musicians,

and writers and more

since the New Yorker Radio Hour

went on the air 10 years ago.

And we've gathered some of our favorite moments

into three playlists for you.

And you can hear all of it

at harkaudio.com slash newyorker.

That's harkaudio, one word,

dot com slash newyorker.

Hope you enjoy. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.
Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow,

Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer. With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra

Decken. And we had help this week from Chris Hagel.
The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported

in part by the Charina Endowment Fund. Working at Vanity Fair, our entire lives revolve around press screenings, premieres, film festivals, Q&As, set visits, award ceremonies.
Not that we're complaining. It's pretty great.
But you know that feeling when you see a new film or show and you want to talk about it with everyone immediately? We feel that all the time. Yes, we sure do.
I'm Richard Lawson. I'm David Canfield.
And I'm Rebecca Ford. On Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's flagship entertainment podcast, we discuss today's most exciting films and TV shows.
David and I are fresh off attending the LA premiere last night.

Break down the latest developments in the awards races.

Gomez and Grande split the pop girly vote.

And catch up with Hollywood's biggest movers and shakers.

Demi Moore, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Whether you're a casual viewer or an industry buff, this is the podcast for you.

New episodes are published every Tuesday and Thursday.

Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.