Alan Cumming on “The Traitors” and His Brush with Reality Television

Speaker 1 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Speaker 2 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

Speaker 2 Plenty of actors light up a room, but Alan Cumming is more of a disco ball reflecting every possible angle of show business.

Speaker 2 That's how the critic Emily Nussbaum introduced Alan Cumming when they sat down at the recent New Yorker Festival. And he does seem to do it all.

Speaker 2 He acts in mainstream dramas like The Good Wife, as well as more indie projects like his one-man version of Macbeth. Cumming is a Broadway legend.

Speaker 4 He also owns a nightclub.

Speaker 2 He recorded a duet about Scottish independence with a Gaelic rapper. His memoir, Not My Father's Son, was a bestseller, and he stars in the Emmy-winning reality show, The Traitors, on Peacock.

Speaker 2 Here's Alan Cumming at the New Yorker Festival, speaking with staff writer Emily Nusbaum.

Speaker 1 So straight out of Scotland, but eternally beloved in New York, welcome Alan Cumming.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 4 Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 So for anybody who hasn't seen it, Traders is a reality show that stars reality stars mostly.

Speaker 4 Mostly, yeah, there's a lot of people from the reality universe, as well as some random famous people. It's sort of, you know, celebrities, and they all go to a castle.

Speaker 4 And it's supposed to be my castle. It's not.

Speaker 4 And I pretend it is, and we do these, you know, they play this game. It's basically

Speaker 4 the parlor game, Mafia.

Speaker 1 So, who is this guy who owns this castle? Like, did you think at all about him as a character? Does he have a backstory?

Speaker 3 Does he?

Speaker 4 I mean, I think of him absolutely as a character.

Speaker 4 You know, I think of him as this sort of combination of a dandy Scottish laird slash sort of James Bond villain

Speaker 4 slash sort of eccentric old fashion nut

Speaker 4 and who has this big castle, and

Speaker 4 like, or like that

Speaker 4 film Clue or something, you know. It's got all those combinations of these very

Speaker 4 theatrical

Speaker 4 camp in the true sense of camp, the sort of the wit and the sort of sardonic kind of camp.

Speaker 4 And he's sort of imposing and scary, but not mean.

Speaker 4 And I sort of try not to engage with the contestants because of that, like in the filming.

Speaker 4 I mean, it's getting harder because they see me outside and I say things like this, but afterwards.

Speaker 4 But when we're at the time, I think I want them to be a little scared of me because I have to sort of shout at them quite a lot to tell them to be quiet and things. It gets out of control sometimes.

Speaker 4 Like in this news season, I actually thought I was going to have to break up a fight.

Speaker 3 And I'm not, I don't do that very often, no.

Speaker 4 But I mean, I thought that in one of the round tables, it got so brutal that, you know, people get so passionate about it and it

Speaker 4 was scary.

Speaker 4 And I have to kind of, you know, be really firm with them.

Speaker 4 And I have to, they have, so I think being chatty and sort of talking between takes doesn't, you know, it's sort of like being in staying in character in a way.

Speaker 4 Well, good morning, my ever-decreasing circle of friends.

Speaker 4 Last night, MJ, Kate, Trishelle, and Parvati were hung out to dry, but it was Bergie who suffered the final devastating blow, brutally dispatched by the traitors.

Speaker 4 Players, despite the loss of Bergie, we must let bygones be bygones.

Speaker 4 Bye. Gone.

Speaker 4 Oh my god.

Speaker 3 Savage.

Speaker 4 Soon, players, you must turn your attention to today's mission. You'll be taking a little trip to my, well, let's call it a holiday home.

Speaker 4 I have a guest who's currently staying there who will help you settle in. And after all, who doesn't enjoy a little country escape?

Speaker 4 Escape, escape. I think it's the cabin.

Speaker 6 Oh, no.

Speaker 4 Head down there, and I'll meet you afterwards.

Speaker 3 A la pushen.

Speaker 1 So, what was your perspective on reality television before you made the show?

Speaker 4 Zero, really. I didn't really.
I mean, I was, once in a while on a plane, I would watch The Kardashians or something, or catch an episode of The Housewives, but not at all.

Speaker 4 It wasn't, I never watched it. And it just wasn't, I don't know, just wasn't my thing.
Never really

Speaker 4 engaged with it. Still don't.

Speaker 1 Did you disapprove of it?

Speaker 4 No. I don't.
I mean,

Speaker 3 yes.

Speaker 4 I was a a bit judgy. I mean, I think I,

Speaker 4 the thing I don't like about it, the thing I don't like about a lot of those shows is that they

Speaker 4 load and therefore encourage bad behavior and lack of kindness.

Speaker 4 That's what I don't like. Thank you.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 when people on these shows are mean, what they're doing is really aping the behavior that probably happened to them. Probably at school someone was mean to them.

Speaker 4 And now that they have power because they have a

Speaker 4 disguise and they have a sort of a platform, they're basically not breaking the cycle and they're just repeating that bad behavior. And I don't like it.

Speaker 4 And I think the great thing I like about the traitors is that it doesn't do that. It doesn't, it makes people have to work together.

Speaker 4 Of course, they do terrible things to each other and they're treacherous, but it's not, it's about the game aspect rather than just being, you know, a meanie and just flinging wine at each other and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 So, um,

Speaker 4 yeah, I actually, this is a complete

Speaker 4 left-field,

Speaker 4 hilarious turn in my life and career to be hosting this show. And I really like it.
Don't get me wrong, I love it. It's such fun.
And also, it has brought me many great things.

Speaker 4 You know, other things have happened because of the success of this. Like, when you're successful in one thing, it usually has a sort of knock-on effect in the other parts of your life.

Speaker 4 And so, I've and I've been around the block long enough to recognize that your career, not that I've ever

Speaker 4 been in the doldrums, but you know, you have peaks and

Speaker 4 less big peaks.

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Speaker 1 You actually appeared on a very different kind of reality show that you talk about in your memoir called Who Do You Think You Are?

Speaker 3 That was the name of it, right?

Speaker 1 Where it was a genealogy show

Speaker 1 that traced the life of your grandfather. And in that, you were the subject.
You were on the other side of the camera.

Speaker 1 And I'm wondering, looking back on that experience, how you feel about it, whether you feel good about it, whether you feel ambivalent or you feel regrets, and whether you learned anything from it.

Speaker 4 I certainly learned stuff from it. I,

Speaker 3 well,

Speaker 4 I mean, when it happened, when they asked me, I remember thinking, oh, this is the best thing that's happened to me about being famous because there was a mystery in my family.

Speaker 4 And they, after, you know, they ask you if you'd like to be a part of it. And then they go away and research you for a while, a couple of months, and they come back and say, yes, we want to do it.

Speaker 4 And then they say, and we're actually going to feature this part of this area of your family. And so there was this mystery in my family.

Speaker 4 And I just remember thinking, I'm going to be able, because I'm famous, and the BBC's research and all the things are going to be able to, that will make

Speaker 4 my mom have this knowledge that she's never had about what happened to her father and what a great gift that is.

Speaker 3 And then,

Speaker 4 you know, a month later, I was like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me about being famous.

Speaker 4 And I, because I had to call up my mum and tell her something truly awful, which was that her father had died in Malaysia playing Russian roulette.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I met, you know, someone who had known him told me that in this little cafe in Malaysia. And

Speaker 4 it was, it was, I mean, I don't regret it because I feel the truth is better than not knowing, even if the truth is hard.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 it

Speaker 3 made

Speaker 4 a lot of sense to a lot of things. And I just think it was, you know, but what was awful, even more awful, was at the time that this was happening, my father, because he thought

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 the show, because the show said, they asked me if they could interview him, and I said, yes, of course, whatever, but I don't want him to be on the show.

Speaker 4 But just because they were going to research, they researched, ask all your aunties and uncles and all these people. And so he he knew that I was, he refused to be interviewed for it.

Speaker 4 But he, and I didn't know how to get hold of him because we were estranged. He was estranged from us for decades.
But they got him, and he refused to be interviewed even just for the research.

Speaker 4 But then he knew I was doing it. So because he thought I was going to find out something, he preempted it and got, reached out to my brother and told me,

Speaker 4 told him to tell me that I was not his biological son. And that happened the night before I started filming the thing when I found out my grandfather died from playing Russian Olette.

Speaker 4 So, all the way through this thing, I was having to deal with my father again for the first time in decades.

Speaker 4 And you know, that's what my book made a good memoir, I suppose, but that's what my book's all about: this sort of

Speaker 4 duality and

Speaker 4 just how awful that was.

Speaker 3 It was awful.

Speaker 4 I really and

Speaker 4 side side-swipes, I didn't see that one coming at all. What state of mind must he have been in

Speaker 4 to be

Speaker 4 getting his kicks from

Speaker 4 being in some little bar, putting a gun to his head?

Speaker 4 I feel really sad for him.

Speaker 4 Being told on camera that your grandfather died playing Russian roulette

Speaker 4 is a lot. It's not just like,

Speaker 4 oh,

Speaker 4 your great-great-great-aunt was a minister to Queen Elizabeth in the blah, blah.

Speaker 3 You're like, how fascinating.

Speaker 4 It was really, and also it was so near, you know, it was so close. He's one generation away.
And so,

Speaker 4 but as I say, I don't regret it. I have no regrets, actually.

Speaker 1 You were raised in a very abusive household in a rural Scottish estate where your father was the caretaker. And then you escaped and you trained to become an actor.

Speaker 1 And you achieved success relatively quickly in your career. And I wanted to ask a little bit about what that first dose of attention was like for you.

Speaker 4 Well, I think what's interesting about becoming famous is there's no, you don't get lessons on it at drama school, you know.

Speaker 4 And I was also coming from a culture where celebrity is not king, like it is here,

Speaker 4 it was more shocking to me. I mean, obviously, I knew famous people, I, you know, there was famous people, but it wasn't quite

Speaker 4 it happened so fast, and it happened.

Speaker 4 I was so young, and also, you know, when you become famous, for me, what being famous is is that people starting to be interested in you as you and your private life as much, if not more, than your work.

Speaker 4 And so, I wasn't ready for that because I didn't, there were areas of my life, like my relationship with my father, that I couldn't even talk about, let alone share it with a journalist or anything.

Speaker 4 And so that was what was hard for me: just this interest in me as a person, aside from me as a performer.

Speaker 4 And I'm really glad that it happened, you know, that I sort of was famous in Scotland and then I ran away and moved to London. Now I started to be famous in London.

Speaker 4 Then I sort of ran away and went to America and I started to be famous in America. So it's kind of gone like this.
And I've got,

Speaker 4 you know, I'm now quite used to it and it's sort of such a part of my life. But back then, it was really overwhelming.
I mean, it is still overwhelming.

Speaker 4 I mean, I was just talking about this the other day: that when people ask me about what it is like to be famous, what does that mean to you? I always say there are many great things about it.

Speaker 4 I get to do the work I want to do. I get to meet incredible people.
But also, you have to live with such a huge level of self-consciousness every time you leave your home. And that is

Speaker 4 a lot.

Speaker 1 Is there advice that you would give to somebody who? I mean I'm sure you've met people on the cusp of fame and they get famous early. Do you offer them any guidance?

Speaker 4 I mean my only thing is this just to not be coy.

Speaker 4 I was coy about certain things in my life and it blew up in my face. And also you know I think I became famous in the sort of 80s actually in Scotland and then in the 90s and in Britain as a whole and

Speaker 4 that was a time that was a time of huge the tabloids were at their height of their awfulness and so

Speaker 4 all those things that you hear about like people raking through your trash cans and door stopping you and your family and your exes and

Speaker 4 shouting through your letterbox and all these things that all happened to me and I feel like that was because I

Speaker 4 wasn't ready but also I sort of felt that if I didn't give everything away and was coy about certain things it would stop people speculating and actually it was the the opposite.

Speaker 4 It just made them more and more interested and more and more fascinated.

Speaker 4 I mean mean, and I think that in life in general, actually, I suppose it's just sort of authenticity and openness are two qualities that will only make your life better.

Speaker 2 Alan Cummins speaking with staff writer Emily Nussbaum at the New Yorker Festival. You can watch highlights from the festival at newyorker.com and subscribe to the New Yorker at newyorker.com as well.

Speaker 2 We've been interviewing actors, musicians, writers, and more since the New Yorker Radio Hour went on the air 10 years ago. And we've gathered some of our favorite moments into three playlists for you.

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Speaker 1 This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer, with guidance from Emily Botine and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Parrish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

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