Does Tim Walz Have Any Regrets?

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Speaker 5 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

Speaker 2 Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

Speaker 2 Democrats in Washington have seemed almost paralyzed by the onslaught of far-right-wing appointments to the Trump cabinet and the wrecking ball that he's unleashed on his own government agencies.

Speaker 2 The Democrats register their opposition, but they seem lost in any attempt to organize themselves against the administration's fire hose.

Speaker 2 Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader in the House, offered a baseball analogy recently, saying they're waiting for the right pitch.

Speaker 2 Last week on our program, Senator John Fetterman of Pennsylvania said this, how many years can you jump on cable and yell and scream that the world's on fire?

Speaker 2 In the states, though, Democratic governors seem much more determined. They seem to have more leverage to oppose the federal government.
Governor Tim Waltz tweeted this in January.

Speaker 2 President Trump just shut off funding for law enforcement, farmers, schools, veterans, and health care. Minnesota needs answers.
We'll see Trump in court.

Speaker 2 That's one of the many reasons that I wanted to speak with Tim Waltz. That, of course, and the election that brought Donald Trump back to the White House.

Speaker 2 I hear all the time

Speaker 3 from non-Trump voters

Speaker 2 two reactions to what's going on in the last month. One is,

Speaker 2 I don't want to watch the news. I want to shut it all out.

Speaker 3 It's too much.

Speaker 2 And the other thing is, where is the Democratic Party? Let's start with the inclination to shut things out.

Speaker 2 You nodded when I said that, and you hear the same thing.

Speaker 3 I think it's human nature. Look, I'm with them on that, too.

Speaker 3 It does feel like, you know, and we know this, you don't cover the planes that land. You know, almost literally, you cover the planes that crash, which we've seen.

Speaker 3 And so people, I think, have a tendency to want to move on with it. People are just...

Speaker 3 trying to take a breath, seeing what the impacts were, but they're out there is what I would say.

Speaker 3 There hasn't been a disengagement. I'll make the case on this.
I use this, David, that President Obama, I talked to him and he said, look, when I came in in 2009, we had a 70% approval rating.

Speaker 3 We had the House. We had the Senate.
There was no charismatic Republican. It was John Boehner and Mitch McConnell.
There wasn't somebody on the scene.

Speaker 3 But what evolved out of that was the grassroots Tea Party movement. And then the Republican leadership followed in, lifted that up, and started to move forward.
So I'm not so certain.

Speaker 3 And I would, the real

Speaker 3 here is the pushback towards these policies that aren't improving people's lives and they're showing up.

Speaker 3 If I were Republicans, I would be really, really worried about these town halls because, in my opinion, that was the real start that led into the 2016 election.

Speaker 3 That Tea Party movement did not lose its, it just morphed into mega, in my opinion. And look, it wasn't totally organic.
I know that.

Speaker 2 But you're suggesting a kind of parallel existence, a parallel opposition,

Speaker 2 a center-left center-left Tea Party movement in a way.

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, what I'm saying is that I think for whatever reason, we've got to show them that our policies work, and I'll take responsibility for the, you know, I needed to do my job and win this election.

Speaker 3 I knew what was coming if we didn't, and here we are. With that being said.

Speaker 2 But did you actually know? I mean, is the

Speaker 2 storm of the last four weeks exactly what you and Kamala Harris envisioned? Is there nothing that's surprised you?

Speaker 3 I thought there would be massive, more massive immigration raids on Inauguration Day. I thought they'd be in the schools, things like that.

Speaker 3 So in that regard, my imagination was pretty good about what they could do because I heard it out there. We need to deliver the policies.

Speaker 3 And look, I'm way more popular than Trump is in Minnesota, not because I'm a popular guy necessarily. It's because the policies we were able to put in place resonate with people.

Speaker 3 And I, for whatever reason, we've lost that with people. They voted for billionaires who gutted programs that many of these people who supported him are going to pay a price for.

Speaker 3 But we can't just write that off to, well, these people just didn't figure it out or whatever. We didn't give them an alternative that was strong enough for them to come.
But I think

Speaker 2 there's a lot of people that feel the Democratic leadership in Washington is too hesitant.

Speaker 2 For example, Hakeem Jeffries, who's the leader of the Democrats in the House, said that, you know, he's like Aaron Judge. Aaron Judge is a great hitter because he doesn't swing at every pitch.

Speaker 2 And that Hakeem Jeffries says, I'm not going to swing at every pitch.

Speaker 3 And And there's a lot of things to swing at.

Speaker 2 And to many people, this seems exceedingly complacent.

Speaker 3 Well, first, I wouldn't underestimate the skill set that Leader Jeffries has. And I certainly,

Speaker 3 you know, just candidly, my staff pulls me back because I am swinging at every pitch, if you will. I think the audacity of the Trump administration and especially what Musk is doing,

Speaker 3 I think some of our folks are operating in a world that doesn't exist anymore.

Speaker 3 And we need to, we need to have better imagination that, look, I'm not talking, I heard people say, well, you know, you didn't give the message that you should have.

Speaker 3 Look, I'm not going to give a message to demonize people. I'm not going to demonize people for using a bathroom and things, but I know that we need to do a better job of what does motivate people.

Speaker 3 And I think what we're seeing now is we're articulating very clearly what they're doing and we're running out programs that we think make a difference.

Speaker 3 And so it was clear to me as a middle-class kid that the Democrats were fighting for me. I'll acknowledge this, a large number of people did not believe we were fighting for them in the last election.

Speaker 3 And that's the big disconnect. We were.
Our policies are super popular, but they did not believe that. Look, I won a congressional district that Donald Trump won by 18 points.

Speaker 3 I won that thing by 32 points at one time. I think I squeaked by like a point in my last election in that congressional.
How did you lose them?

Speaker 3 I think COVID broke us in more ways than we have yet analyzed, socially, culturally, economically, in a way and there's angst these folks they see an economy that it's impossible to own a house you got a car payment that's 800 bucks um and we didn't say i think we did i think the vice president laid out some things i think we had the twenty five down payment assistance on a house um that makes a lot more sense than a tax cut for billionaires because we're never going to see that so you know my analysis on this is i think we're too cautious to go into media environments that we're where we haven't been.

Speaker 3 I think we are less likely, like you go back to your earlier question, we have to flood the zone.

Speaker 3 I'm a shadow government guy. I think we need a shadow Department of Transportation Secretary.
I think if Pete Buttigig is out there talking about these plane accidents,

Speaker 3 he should be there every day. He's articulate.
He's smart. He knows it.
He should be. That's true across the spectrum.
Governors are starting to do this.

Speaker 2 Governor, you mentioned specific services that are not being delivered in your state and elsewhere.

Speaker 2 Can you boil that down? What are the specific services that have suddenly stalled in Minnesota as a result of what's happening in Washington.

Speaker 3 We saw in our federal workers, we have, you know, not a lot. We're a giver state, not a taker state.
But we've got thousands of federal workers.

Speaker 3 And then today, I've got the analysis of what the Medicaid reductions would look like. And I think in the UK, what do they look like? Well, I'll just take an example.

Speaker 3 He's a leader, Tom Emmer, you know, number three over there in the house or number two, wherever he's at. He's got 124,000 Medicaid recipients.
21,000 of them will be cut off.

Speaker 3 Those are things that are real to people.

Speaker 3 So I think getting these numbers, articulating where it's at, and then saying what we would do differently. I think that's been the gap in this, to be honest with you, David.

Speaker 3 I don't think we have done a good enough job.

Speaker 3 We tried it on the trail, but I, you know, opportunity economy, that doesn't really fall where you at.

Speaker 3 You've got to be specific with people, having Medicare pay for in-home health care for our seniors. I got it right now.
I got a mother-in-law just had a surgery for a brain tumor.

Speaker 3 She's going to need to go into rehab or whatever.

Speaker 3 The ability for Medicare to be able to pay for for that rehab in her home rather than that would not only save us money, it would improve quality of life and make a difference.

Speaker 3 And that was a proposal the vice president put out. It didn't get anywhere.

Speaker 2 Governor, last week, I had the opportunity to speak with Senator John Fetterman, who said the following.

Speaker 2 I think that the Democratic Party made it increasingly difficult for men, specifically white men, to make that choice, meaning the choice for their Democrats.

Speaker 2 I think it's incredibly difficult sometimes. Now, he wouldn't say exactly what made it hard, but the numbers suggest that there really is something to that.
What is going on with Democrats and men?

Speaker 3 The economic situation of men has changed in proportion to women.

Speaker 3 But I would argue this, just because women are getting rights and moving up in the workplace, that doesn't mean that men don't have that same opportunity, that it's there.

Speaker 3 I think this idea that when somebody else gains a freedom, you lose one or somebody else gains an opportunity.

Speaker 3 Look,

Speaker 2 they do do whatever they do.

Speaker 3 I have lived straight up the middle of this. I know football.
I hunt. You know what they do? They take time to demonize my military career.
Say, well, he's not a real coach.

Speaker 3 He was the defensive coordinator. He doesn't really know how to hunt because, you know, I say so or whatever.

Speaker 3 So anything that was, if that's what defined, and I would say it doesn't, if that was to define masculinity to know football, fix your own car, you're in the army for 25 years,

Speaker 3 they don't care. They demonize that.
And they voted for a guy who can't do any of those things. And so I think I disagree with you.

Speaker 2 I understand all those things. And

Speaker 3 yet

Speaker 3 they voted the way they voted.

Speaker 2 They see you in one way and they see Donald Trump in quite a different way.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they did in November of 2024.

Speaker 3 Now, when those promises don't come out, when their station in life doesn't improve, when the ability to take care or support their family doesn't get better,

Speaker 3 he's going to have to deliver. This goes back to my case on this.

Speaker 3 If you don't deliver on policies, the ideal that boggles my mind, I honest to God, thought that it was a good talking point that when the Wall Street Journal said Tim Walls is the least wealthy person to ever run for vice president and the first in 40 years it's not a lawyer, apparently wasn't a flex.

Speaker 3 They went with the guy who's a billionaire

Speaker 3 and has never been in their situation. Someone who's, I'm very proud I have, I pay my bills.
I got an 850 credit score.

Speaker 3 They went with the guy who didn't pay his bills didn't care about it so somewhere in there's a disconnect so I I don't think it's as simple as you know we've lost it I think there's complexity around it I will acknowledge this we did not win white men would I change that by saying you know what we don't need to hire so many women no of course not but I will acknowledge this They definitely must not have heard my message, which is one that you should get a fair shake in this.

Speaker 3 You should have a good job. You should get health insurance.
They didn't believe that.

Speaker 2 I think what you're telling me is that

Speaker 2 the rubber is going to meet the road on economics. Yes.

Speaker 2 That the popularity or unpopularity or the opposition or non-opposition to Trump will depend on the price of eggs, as it were, and many other economics.

Speaker 3 Look, I just talked to a labor group, the electricians yesterday, and I said, I know we don't all agree on everything on this, but I said, you're in here today to talk about policies on misclassification of workers, the ability to organize, the ability to get good jobs in this.

Speaker 3 I said, you're going to have to to decide whether who's using which restroom is more important than those things. You need to make that decision.

Speaker 3 What I'm telling you is the decision that's going to pinpack your life the most is right in this room on these economic issues.

Speaker 3 And I got as warm, you know, look, I'm a labor guy and they support me, but it was, I'm telling you, it was different even since the election that there was, yeah, you're right.

Speaker 3 If his stuff worked, if tariffs worked, I'll say this, God dang, it worked. People have more money.
They're able to buy a house. The middle class is more secure.
I don't believe that.

Speaker 3 Now, they may dismiss, and there's a, you know, I think 30% or whatever of his voters, they'll dismiss all the economic stuff. The others will not.

Speaker 3 I'll tell you, the biggest change on this was, and it drove me mad during the campaign. Donald Trump was viewed better than Kamala Harris on the economy.
Pretty wide gap of all those things.

Speaker 3 I worried about it the entire campaign, that we were not getting out the economic message that was making a difference, even though the numbers on democracy, women's rights, abortions, things that we care about matter.

Speaker 3 But that one core issue on the economy, they didn't trust trust us.

Speaker 2 Governor, as a person who started his career as a sports reporter after a game, to me, the most interesting thing is never to go to the winning locker room, but to go to the losing locker room on a human level.

Speaker 2 Tell me what it was like to lose that election and what you felt in the days after.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I never lost an election before.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 the thing for me that gives me the most angst, to be candid,

Speaker 3 was letting people down. An old white guy who ran for vice vice president, you'll land on your feet pretty well.
I still struggle with it. It was my job to get this one.

Speaker 3 And now when I see Medicaid cuts happening, when I see

Speaker 3 LGBTQ folks being demonized, when I see some of this happening, that's what weighs on me. Personally, I'll serve

Speaker 3 where I'm asked to serve.

Speaker 3 But what was the next morning like?

Speaker 2 Did you feel a sense of desolation or failure

Speaker 2 or an inability to understand what had just happened?

Speaker 3 Did you think you realized going in? No. And that's the one that surprises me.
And I have been in elections where I knew it was tough.

Speaker 3 And there's election nights where I said, look, we're going to win by a point or we're going to lose by a point.

Speaker 3 On the day before the election, I thought you were going to win. I did.
What was telling you that?

Speaker 3 It just felt like the mood of folks, and look, maybe a bad poll or whatever, you know, the Iowa stuff was coming out.

Speaker 3 It felt like what happened in New York City the week before was a bridge too far.

Speaker 2 The Madison Square Gardener.

Speaker 3 Yes, yes.

Speaker 7 You know, there's a lot going on. Like, I don't know if you guys know this, but there's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 7 I think it's called Puerto Rico.

Speaker 3 It just felt like people would choose a calmness and a hopefulness over that. Obviously, Donald Trump knew more about America on November 5th of 2024 than I did.

Speaker 3 And maybe those.

Speaker 2 What do you mean by that? What did he know that you didn't know?

Speaker 3 Well, he knew that that message would work. And I said, I'm guilty of this.

Speaker 3 They sucked me in on, say, for example, I was just horrified and angry when they were demonizing folks in Springfield, Ohio.

Speaker 3 And there I was talking for almost a week about immigration, right where they wanted us to be.

Speaker 2 This is their eating the dogs and the cats. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah. That, that's, that bothered me on a real human basis.
On that one, I was pretty fired up, you know, pushing back. It wasn't fair.
We need to do this. It just struck me.
And

Speaker 3 he was right for whatever reason. He was right that more people were okay with saying that than they were against.
I really think it was a piece of it. I think the immigration piece did play a role.

Speaker 2 I'm speaking with Governor Tim Waltz of Minnesota. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.
More to come.

Speaker 8 This is Iraq Glass, the host of This American Life. So much is changing so rapidly right now with President Trump in office.

Speaker 8 It feels good to pause for a moment sometimes and look around at what's what. Let's try and do that.

Speaker 8 We've been finding these incredible stories about right now that are funny and have feeling, and you get to see people everywhere adapting and making sense of this new America that we find ourselves in.

Speaker 8 If you haven't listened in a while, I honestly think these are some of the best stories we've ever done.

Speaker 2 This American Life, every week, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I'm speaking today with Tim Waltz, the governor of Minnesota.

Speaker 2 When Governor Waltz got the nod from Kamala Harris to be her running mate, he seemed to have it all, particularly in the regular guy department.

Speaker 2 He was bluff, friendly, a Midwesterner, a veteran of the Army National Guard, a history teacher in public high school, a football coach, a longtime congressman, and then governor of Minnesota.

Speaker 2 But it might have been one little phrase that put Waltz in the public eye. He called Trump and J.D.

Speaker 3 Vance weird.

Speaker 2 Weird, and for a hot minute it stuck. You suddenly heard Democrats all over the country trying some variation on the weird theme.

Speaker 2 It seemed to resonate more strongly than scarier words like authoritarian or fascist. But you know the end of the story.
The voters spoke in November, and here we are.

Speaker 2 I'll continue now my conversation with Governor Tim Waltz.

Speaker 2 It seems that one of the difficulties the Democrats had were on, and this sometimes is a euphemism, is on cultural issues. How did you react to the ad that said this? Kamala Harris is for they, them.

Speaker 2 Donald Trump is for you.

Speaker 3 Well, I reacted knowing it was probably going to be bad.

Speaker 3 You know, bad for us.

Speaker 3 Bad for us. Bad for the trans community.
I think there's some, and they know this, that because this community is so demonized, they pick, you know, we're hearing it here.

Speaker 3 We can't have, have, you know, in women's sports or whatever.

Speaker 3 Look, if you were really concerned about the safety of women in sports, it's men sexually assaulting female athletes, you know, coaches and things. Let's just be candid about it.

Speaker 3 There's 10 transgender athletes out of 590,000 in the country. College athletes, you know.

Speaker 3 I think my response to this, I have stood for those rights because I believe human rights and the trans rights are human rights.

Speaker 3 And I could argue from a moral perspective, which I have and I will, of why we need to defend these human rights because they'll come after each and every one of us.

Speaker 3 By the time that ad came and they ran a billion dollars behind it, we were dismissing it without a response to it.

Speaker 3 And I don't think our response

Speaker 3 had to drag everybody through it. I think it should have been as simple as this: this isn't going to improve your lives and leave these people alone.
You had a debate with J.D.

Speaker 2 Vance. Standing there next to him,

Speaker 2 what was your sense of his strengths and weaknesses? And do you have any

Speaker 2 second thoughts or regrets about that confrontation?

Speaker 3 Well, I think you always do. Look, I said it, David.
I am a poor debater in that I think I started a disadvantage as a school teacher. My inclination is to answer the question,

Speaker 3 and that puts me at a disadvantage.

Speaker 2 How did you react to the rap that you were too nice to him somehow?

Speaker 3 I think it's fair, and I think he was well coached in this. And my guess is it came from the Minnesotans that said, look, if you're nice to Tim, it is just in his nature.
He will be nice to you.

Speaker 3 But we did not prep for that J.D. Vance

Speaker 3 because he was nice to me.

Speaker 2 You were prepping for the J.D. Vance to get

Speaker 2 right up in your grill, huh?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 3 My team took everything in, and this is on me. It's 100% on me.
It's, you know, people who say, oh, you were over prepped and you did all this. No, I'm the guy standing there, and this is 100% on me.

Speaker 3 I will argue that, I would argue like golf. I am not a scratch golfer.
I'm a 90 golfer.

Speaker 3 I think my team got me to low 80s just by the work they did. But that's about the best you're going to get.
But what struck me is that. You're saying you could have been a lot worse.

Speaker 3 Oh, I think so. Yes, I know I could have been.
And it's my inclination.

Speaker 3 Like, I think that, you know, and it's retrospect on this, they maybe should have let me be when I have had really good debates, which I do have those once in a while, where I'm just speaking the truth straight to it.

Speaker 3 But the thing that struck me was the ease that he would say things that somebody that smart knows wasn't true. And the ability to say it was really disarming to me because I'm horrible at it.

Speaker 3 When I get it wrong, people can see it.

Speaker 2 For example, what did he say that was markedly untrue?

Speaker 3 Talking about immigrants and housing was one that was really it.

Speaker 9 25 million illegal aliens competing with Americans for scarce homes is one of the most significant drivers of home prices in the country.

Speaker 9 It's why we have massive increases in home prices that have happened right alongside massive increases in illegal alienation.

Speaker 3 We know that's not true.

Speaker 3 That's not why housing is more difficult to find. It's not anything like that.
And then he morphed that into the use of federal lands, that the federal lands are too protected.

Speaker 3 And it was a really, you know, under, inside the bubble thing that he was talking about is that we need the federal government out of this. We can demonize immigrants at the same time.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, I'm sitting there thinking to myself, we've got a housing shortage in Minneapolis, not as bad as other cities, but we have it. There's no federal lands here.

Speaker 3 And there's no immigrant can afford a house in Minneapolis. And you're making this case.
And I'm talking about it's people like you, JD,

Speaker 3 the, you know, the venture venture capitalists who came in and preyed on these areas, bought up all the houses, jacked them up, gentrified the area and made it difficult for it to be there.

Speaker 3 And then you blame the very people who you kicked out. And that part of it of standing side by side, I watched, he was good at it.

Speaker 3 And how are you going to find common ground with someone who is so diametrically opposed to the where things are at?

Speaker 2 Did the campaign end up relying too much on the message of defending democracy? Is that possible?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think it's possible. This is where the fourth grade school teacher in me knows is, is fear is a good short-term motivator.
It doesn't change behavior.

Speaker 3 And people tuned out to it because it seemed so unlikely that this would happen. It was over the horizon, housing costs, gasoline, eggs, and all of that.

Speaker 3 My point was, is just to show no one was asking for this agenda. No one was asking for this stuff.
And it's just weird to focus on who's using the bathroom.

Speaker 3 Like I said, I think we were trying to make an intellectual argument that let's just all be candid. We were right about right now, which appears to be happening.

Speaker 3 But it wasn't about being right. It was about convincing enough Americans that this was a problem, but doing it in a way that

Speaker 3 brought to them, brought it home to them. It's like trying to, as a teacher, I teach a lesson and the kids don't get it.
It's not because the kids are dumb. It's because you're not teaching it right.

Speaker 3 So pivot around and teach it a different way.

Speaker 2 You just announced that you won't be seeking the open U.S. Senate seat in your home state.

Speaker 3 First of all, why?

Speaker 2 And would you ever be open to running for a national race again after what you've just been through?

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, my first responsibility is that we win that seat in Minnesota. So I think you look at the whole field, and I think you have to, including me in that, to look at it.

Speaker 3 But candidly, a couple things. First, I was in Congress for 12 years, and I said, when someone asked me, you miss it? And I said, I'd rather eat glass than

Speaker 3 miss it. But I recognize that that's a different skill.

Speaker 2 Why would you rather eat glass than go back to Washington?

Speaker 3 Because it's so frustrating. Now, I think when I was there, there was still the ability to work across the aisle.

Speaker 3 And it's something I prised myself on Agriculture Committee, VA committee, armed services, working on things together that really mattered. And I think that's gone.

Speaker 3 And now, being in this position as executive for the state, it's just different. And I think about the impact that I can make, especially now as the ability to do it.

Speaker 2 So you're saying you can make a greater impact as governor of Minnesota than senator from Minnesota

Speaker 2 in the Trump era.

Speaker 3 Aaron Ross Powell, yes. But now, look, as you gain seniority, and it takes a while there, I would argue that might not hold true with Senator Klobuchar.

Speaker 3 She is an effective national voice. She can change policies, but she's earned that over 18 years.

Speaker 3 You go as a 61-year-old junior senator from Minnesota, you know, it's going to take a while.

Speaker 3 And I think the ability to be able to impact states now as kind of the last firewall against this is more important. And to be very candid on this is we've got a deep bench with people people who are

Speaker 3 probably better qualified than me to be able to do that job, and they will.

Speaker 3 A blunt question. Is Donald Trump corrupt?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I believe that. I mean, I think his career has shown that.
I think you disclose, and you should own no stocks, and you should own no interest in any company. If you're in elected office,

Speaker 3 you should not get wealthier while you're in elected office. And

Speaker 3 I think the inability to do that, never showing us his tax returns. Look, I don't know for a fact he is, but I have an inclination that

Speaker 3 there's things in there that should be shown.

Speaker 2 What's the inclination? What is the pattern you're seeing, whether Trump or the Trump family or his relationship to other business people tells you that he's corrupt?

Speaker 3 I'll just give you this one. You don't agree with him, he threatens you.
Look, I disagreed strongly with George Bush, but I respected him greatly.

Speaker 3 When we had a flood, George Bush was out here in my congressional district, and he did what he needed to do.

Speaker 3 And I would go back to Washington and fight him on his policies on the Iraq war, but I never for once questioned that he was corrupt.

Speaker 3 I never once questioned that he wasn't trying to do the right thing. I just thought he couldn't figure out what the right thing was.

Speaker 2 Of all the appointments that Donald Trump has made,

Speaker 2 which ones trouble you the most?

Speaker 3 Man, that's tough. I think Michigan is a good person.
Well, you can rank some from one

Speaker 3 if you like. Yeah, it's tough.
I think Pete Hakeseth over at DOD really worries me. He couldn't get into elected office in Minnesota.
He was thrashed when he tried to run.

Speaker 3 So he came in this door, and his policies, especially on women in the military, I find

Speaker 3 revolting and the antithesis of what this democracy and folks who want to serve. So I think that's troublesome.

Speaker 3 And I think it's troublesome because these moves of removing generals, I'm not prone to hyperbole.

Speaker 3 But a lot of these things, the final stopping point are the generals. You look globally around the world,

Speaker 3 the final move, if you're trying to move towards an authoritarian government, is the generals.

Speaker 2 Meaning to politicize the military.

Speaker 2 Let's put this all together, whether it's the Justice Department or the Pentagon or all the other appointments that have been made and all the other moves that you've seen take shape over the last, what is it, five, six weeks.

Speaker 2 What is Donald Trump building in the aggregate? How is he changing America in systemic terms?

Speaker 3 Look, the thing that's common about all those, not just that they're not qualified, the thing that's common about those is every one of those people in all of those positions are loyal to Donald Trump first, and the American people fall right down the line.

Speaker 3 I appoint people who challenge me daily. That's how you're supposed to do leadership in this.
And so I think it's clear that he's building an authoritarian government that is to Donald Trump first.

Speaker 3 He yelled at the governor of Maine, we are the law. We are the federal law.
He is not the federal law. And we bend no knee to no man.

Speaker 2 This is Jenny Mills, who then turned and said, we'll see you in court.

Speaker 3 Yes, for simply if she's following her law and federal law. And if you don't like it, you go to court.

Speaker 3 So, yeah,

Speaker 2 and look, I How far do you think he will go? You're saying he's building

Speaker 3 government. As far as he can.

Speaker 2 What does that mean, as far as he can?

Speaker 3 I think he'd like to see a change. I think he's already hinted at it.
He'd like to run again. I think the checks and balances of government are off.
He's said that.

Speaker 3 He's hinted, and the vice president's hinted. The checks and balances are off, meaning I'm not quite sure.
We don't have to listen to the courts. If the courts rule against us, we won't do it anyway.

Speaker 3 Look, it happens to me here. I think sometimes the courts here rule against me.
I may disagree, but I fully respect and I will implement exactly what they tell me to do.

Speaker 3 And that's the way that that is the way it has to be. And I would fully expect to be called to the carpet if I didn't.

Speaker 3 I would argue that the road towards authoritarianism has been paved with people saying you're overreacting. I don't think you can underestimate how far he will go.

Speaker 3 And I think you should assume, this is what I would say, a worst case scenario. If I'm wrong, that's okay.
The democracy holds. If I'm right,

Speaker 3 then we need to be prepared that he'll continue to make these moves. And I think, as governors, my job is to make sure the firewall is there.

Speaker 3 My job as governors make sure that I'm honoring the system where it is, where it sets in terms of the government. I don't say this to

Speaker 2 further pain you,

Speaker 2 but it must eat at your guts every day

Speaker 3 to know that you lost by a point and a half,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 the difference was between an administration led by Kamala Harris and yourself and this.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yep, it does.
And

Speaker 3 that's one I'll take with me to the grave, that I knew what my job was. It wasn't to become vice president.
It was to protect the most vulnerable. It was to make sure that we balance the budget.

Speaker 3 It's make sure that we keep peace in the world, make sure we tackle climate change, make sure that women make their own reproductive rights. All of those things are at stress right now.

Speaker 3 So I think for me is to do the best I can

Speaker 3 to push back against that, to do the right thing. Look, if there's a place to find common ground with Donald Trump, I would find it.
But I think we're being very naive here.

Speaker 3 He's not interested in finding common ground with us. He is not interested in that.
He sees us as an impediment and an obstacle.

Speaker 3 And I think he'll continue to move to remove those obstacles the best he can.

Speaker 2 Who do you see in the Democratic Party as a possibility for 28? Because as we know, these dates come at at us faster than we sometimes anticipate.

Speaker 3 It's deep. And look, I'm going to say it, I'm biased towards the governors, and there's a bunch of them out there doing the work.
But look, there's people that I'm unabashed.

Speaker 3 I'm a big fan of Pete Buttigiegs. I think he talks about it.

Speaker 3 I don't know what Vice President Harris is going to do, but I think she's got a lot to offer, folks, and I wish we would have got to see more of that. But I think the bench is...

Speaker 2 Have you talked to her much since the election?

Speaker 3 A couple times. Just a couple of times? Yeah.
How come? Just a few times.

Speaker 3 Well, I think, you know, I'm doing my job and she's doing her job. And

Speaker 3 we, you know, she's out in California, I believe, living, and I'm here in beautiful Minnesota where the weather's all.

Speaker 2 You can text, you can phone.

Speaker 2 Really, after that kind of experience, you just talk a couple of times?

Speaker 3 Well, maybe it's, you know, maybe she doesn't want to talk to me after we get this thing done. No, I think it's just there will be a time and a place, but we left good.
And my family misses her.

Speaker 3 I will say that. My daughter, especially.
Your daughter found her. I do.

Speaker 2 What was that relationship like as it reached its end?

Speaker 3 Look, it was professional. It was clear that, you know, she was the top of the ticket and my job was there to support her.
She inspired me.

Speaker 3 I think there were a lot of things that America never knew about her. When I found out she was a band kid, I'm like, why aren't we running ads on that? This is like she played in the high school band.

Speaker 3 My God, that's a common experience for everybody. And I have to say this, watching her around her family.
you know, with Doug, with the girls, with her son,

Speaker 3 that inspired me the most because I love that they had that. Our families, when we got time to spent together, was really, really fun, and it just felt like the right thing.

Speaker 2 Did the results of this last election tell you that a woman, and particularly a woman of color, cannot be president of this country?

Speaker 3 Well, I think it's tough, and

Speaker 3 I'm ashamed by that. I'm disappointed in our country.

Speaker 3 We had a supremely qualified leader, a woman of color,

Speaker 3 who

Speaker 3 we would not be in all this. You wouldn't be having this angst, I'll guarantee you that.

Speaker 3 And yet we didn't choose that. So it bothers me.
Yes, it bothers me.

Speaker 3 Do I think that that's going to make it harder?

Speaker 3 It probably will, but it'll also, I think, you know, forge the steel of that next woman and that next woman of color who's going to rise up, and they will. So yeah, it's tough.

Speaker 3 I thought we'd be there.

Speaker 3 My mom is late 80s and she's madder than hell, not that I won, but she said she doesn't know if she's going to live long enough to see a woman president. And that bothers her.

Speaker 2 Have you had any national politics for yourself?

Speaker 3 Look, I never had an ambition to be president or vice president. I was honored to be asked.
I told the vice president I would go wherever she asked me.

Speaker 3 If she didn't pick me and she sent me to Omaha to win one electoral vote, that's what I would do.

Speaker 3 I've always done this. If I feel like I can serve, I will.
And if nationally, that's what it looks like. You know, maybe people are like, dude, we tried you and look how that worked out.

Speaker 3 I'm good with that. I just want the best person who's there.

Speaker 2 I guess what I'm asking you is, would you run for president?

Speaker 3 Well, I had a friend tell me, never turn down a job, you haven't been offered. If I think I could offer something or if there's a piece there that would do it, I would certainly consider that.

Speaker 3 I'm also, though, not arrogant enough to believe there's a lot of people that can do this.

Speaker 3 And by the time we get to 2028, what that skill set to do it looks like, we need to coalesce behind that person, whoever it is. And so I'll.
you know, if

Speaker 3 it would be that my up to skill set, I'll do it. If you I do,

Speaker 3 if it means that we don't have to put up with what we're doing, I'll do whatever it takes.

Speaker 3 I certainly

Speaker 3 wouldn't be arrogant enough to think that it needs to be me. I would just say that.

Speaker 2 When you read presidential history, you read American history, there are people that feel they are destined to do this.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I never felt that. I never feel that.

Speaker 3 I didn't feel destined to be.

Speaker 3 member of Congress or to be governor. And I always said this, I didn't prepare my life to be in these jobs, but my life prepared me well.

Speaker 3 and if this experience I had and what we're going through right now prepares me for that then then I would but I certainly

Speaker 3 I worry about people who have ambition for elected office I don't think you should have ambition I think you should have a desire to do it if you're asked to serve and that's kind of where I'm at and if folks aren't asking I'm with them then I'm going with the person they're asking for

Speaker 2 governor thank you so much for your time Pleasure to be with you. I really appreciate it.
Be well.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 2 Tim Walls is the governor of Minnesota, and this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Thanks for joining us.
See you next time.

Speaker 5 The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbis of Tune Yards with additional music by Louie Mitchell.

Speaker 5 This episode was produced by Max Bolton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louie Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer, with guidance from Emily Botine and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

Speaker 2 And we had help this week from Chris Hagel.

Speaker 5 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Torina Endowment Fund.

Speaker 6 Famous Amos. It's a brand synonymous with chocolate chip cookies.
It's also the creation of my dad, Wally Amos.

Speaker 6 When he passed away last year, I set out to understand how he became one of the most famous black men in America and how his life and our family unraveled.

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