Sara Bareilles Talks with Rachel Syme

Speaker 1 WNYC Studios is supported by AT ⁇ T, offering a guarantee covering both wireless and fiber internet service that is all about having your back. Staying connected matters.

Speaker 1 That's why AT ⁇ T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT ⁇ T guarantee.
Visit ATT.com slash guarantee to learn more. Terms and conditions apply.

Speaker 1 Visit ATT.com slash guarantee for details. AT ⁇ T, connecting changes everything.
This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

Speaker 1 Did you know Apple Card is designed to help you pay off your balance faster with smart payment suggestions? And because fees don't help you, AppleCard doesn't have any.

Speaker 1 So if your credit card isn't Apple Card, maybe it should be. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City Branch.

Speaker 1 Variable APRs range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness. Rates as of July 1st, 2025.
Terms and more at AppleCard.com.

Speaker 2 Did my card go through?

Speaker 3 Oh, no.

Speaker 2 Your small business depends on its internet. So switch to Verizon Business.
And you could get LTE Business Internet starting at $39 a month when paired with Select Business Mobile Plans.

Speaker 2 That's unlimited data for unlimited business.

Speaker 4 There we go.

Speaker 2 Get the internet you need at the price you want. Verizon Business.

Speaker 2 Starting price for LTE Business Internet, 25 megabits per second, unlimited data plan with Select Verizon Business Smartphone Plan Savings. Terms Apply.

Speaker 5 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

Speaker 6 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnant.

Speaker 6 At the New Yorker Festival a couple of months ago, we were joined by Sarah Borelis. Borelis broke out as a star in pop music in the late aughts with the Grammy Awards to prove it.

Speaker 6 But she's gone on to have a very different sort of career writing music for Broadway.

Speaker 6 So on the one hand, Borrellis is busy acting on stage and on television, and on the other, she's busy as a composer and a songwriter.

Speaker 6 Right now, she's adapting Meg Wolitzer's best-selling novel, The Interestings for the Stage, along with the playwright, Sarah Rule.

Speaker 6 Sarah Borelis sat down to talk with staff writer Rachel Syme and to play a little music, too.

Speaker 7 How do you write a song, Sarah?

Speaker 4 There are very few times I can think of where I sat down and something just sort of showed up. I really believe in this idea of kind of,

Speaker 4 you know, the muses visit the artist at work. They reward the person who creates ritual or routine around just showing up and writing.

Speaker 4 I'm finding that I'm in my 40s now, I'm 44, and my rituals have changed and the process changes, but it's evolving.

Speaker 7 Reading about your first record deal though and how many co-writers they tried to put you with, or, you know, there was a sense at the beginning maybe where they didn't let you follow your own nose or trust that you could be on your own.

Speaker 7 And I know that that was difficult. So, I, I mean, how did you feel like you had the confidence then to sort of say, I need to be solo here?

Speaker 4 I wouldn't identify it as confidence. I think it was

Speaker 4 a kind of desperation.

Speaker 4 I got set up on all these songwriting sort of dates with very successful songwriters who were writing songs for Avril Levine and Kelly Clarkson and like a lot of my sort of contemporaries.

Speaker 4 It just didn't resonate. It didn't, it felt like it didn't matter if I was in the room or not.
I felt like they were just writing songs and they were just trying to find people to sing them. And

Speaker 4 songwriting to me has,

Speaker 4 I can't think of anything more sacred. It's as intimate as it gets and it is literally an illustration of my relationship with God.

Speaker 4 It's like that's as close as I get to like being naked spiritually for the world.

Speaker 4 And so the idea that I would sit in a room and have somebody hand me a sheet of paper that had like a list of song titles, a lot of them with like letters in the title, which like too good for you.

Speaker 3 It's like a grass five joke. I don't think God wants to say that.

Speaker 4 So it kind of, I got, I was in despair, actually. And my manager at the time finally like heard me and was like, okay, you don't have to do it anymore.

Speaker 4 And I think this is where my heart breaks for young artists who don't realize, like, I, like, you have the power to go home all along.

Speaker 4 Like, I didn't ever have to do any of that, but I do think I grew from the experience.

Speaker 7 I think people sort of assume that love song was written out of that despair. I'm not gonna write you a love song because you asked for it, cause you need one.

Speaker 7 You see, I'm not gonna write you a love song. You know, that song feels so defiant.

Speaker 7 And I wonder, was it written out of despair or was it written out of the moment when you got through it and you were thinking, I'm on the other side of this, and, you know, you guys can shove it?

Speaker 4 That's a good question. I think you can shove it.

Speaker 7 I wish I could have put that in there.

Speaker 4 I think you're right. That wasn't a moment of despair.
That was more a moment of discovery. I was listening to the radio and I was just like trying to cop what I heard on the radio.

Speaker 4 I was trying to like mimic. I was like, oh, it should sound something like this.
And I was so angry when I caught myself in that line of thinking.

Speaker 4 And I said a prayer and I was like, please let me just return to myself somehow. Just remember why I'm doing this.
Remember what I'm trying to say. And it was a diary entry.

Speaker 4 It was like, head underwater and you tell me to breathe easy. Like

Speaker 4 this time is impossible. You know, I don't want to give you what you're asking for.

Speaker 4 I don't even know if I knew what I thought they were asking for, except that I knew they wanted a song that could go on the radio.

Speaker 7 I know you grew up loving theater and getting to work on Waitress is your grand return to your early love of theater.

Speaker 7 So maybe we can start with your early love of theater and then clock up to Waitress.

Speaker 4 My mom was a very prominent community theater actress in Humboldt County where I grew up. And she did tons and tons of shows at our repertory theater there.

Speaker 4 And I would go to the theater and I went back not that long ago. And in my mind, it is like a palace.
And when I went back, I'm like, oh, it's like a 99-seat theater.

Speaker 4 It's so small and perfect and beautiful. And it was the happiest I ever was sitting in a theater seat.
And then the idea that I could be a part of productions was just like mind-blowing.

Speaker 4 I did productions of Little Shop of Horrors. I did Mystery of Edwin Trood.

Speaker 4 I did Charlotte's Webb. and I really thought I would go into theater.

Speaker 4 And then I started writing songs and I moved to LA to go to UCLA. And then my music career

Speaker 4 just sort of foregrounded itself. And I got on that ride.
Being a touring artist is like you get on the ride and then you come home and you write a new record and then you get right back on the ride.

Speaker 4 And I started to feel like I'm, I'll hate this really, really soon.

Speaker 4 Well, I took this month-long Rumspringa in New York, and I had a meeting with

Speaker 4 my brand new theatrical agent, and he's like, There are auditions for a show called Into the Woods. And I was like, I love that show.

Speaker 4 Give me the audition.

Speaker 4 And I auditioned for Cinderella for the production that was in the park. And when I tell you, I shit the bed.
I shit the bed with

Speaker 4 fury.

Speaker 4 And I walked out of that room and I was like, there's not even like a world where like we're like, maybe that went okay. Like it was so clear.
They were like, oh, I hope you'll be okay after this.

Speaker 4 It was so terrible and I really, I was so humbled by how little I knew about anything in this industry. And then

Speaker 4 got the opportunity to sit down with Diane Paulus, who was the director of Waitress, and she talked to me about this project.

Speaker 4 So I was, I thought I would go back to theater as a performer, and then I was like, oh, I don't know how to do that. And then started writing songs.

Speaker 7 So you're approached about Waitress, Diane Paulis, and you were having, you know, this wonderful mind meld. You watched the Adrian Shelley movie.
And how do you approach this project?

Speaker 7 I know the first song you wrote for it was She Is to Be Mine.

Speaker 8 She is messy,

Speaker 8 but she's kind.

Speaker 8 She is lonely.

Speaker 8 Most of the time.

Speaker 8 She is all of this mixed up and baked in a beautiful pie.

Speaker 8 She is gone, but she used to be mine.

Speaker 4 I was just trying the whole time to just

Speaker 4 like act like I knew what I was doing. I do think I have some instincts around, like it became clear very quickly that I liked being in these conversations.
I liked the puzzle.

Speaker 4 I liked the questioning of motivation. And the collaboration was very new to me.
You know, these songwriters that I got paired with, I think for a long time, made me very fearful of collaboration.

Speaker 4 When it's the right kind of collaboration, it can be incredible. You know, the phenomenon of something being bigger than the sum of its parts.

Speaker 7 Do you like the workshop process for a new show? Because I know you just had your workshop for this, and then it's like you have to go back and tear things apart, lose numbers, bring numbers in.

Speaker 7 I mean, is that exciting to you?

Speaker 4 If you can let go of the part of you that needs things to be finished quickly or perfect or that you know what anything is or means, if you can let go of that part,

Speaker 4 then it can be really fun.

Speaker 7 Do you feel like working in the theater sort of like reinvigorated your love of the other side of the industry? Because you were saying like it's the hamster wheel, it's the hamster wheel.

Speaker 7 Do you feel like you felt revived?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 4 I feel like working in the theater industry only affirmed that I think the theater industry is the best industry.

Speaker 4 I think what it affirmed in me is that I just felt like I'd been at the wrong party my whole career. I just, I don't know where I fit in the music industry.

Speaker 4 People did not give two shits about me until I wrote, until Waitress was like a musical.

Speaker 4 And I was like, you guys care about this show about pie, but you didn't like nobody would touch me with a 10-foot bowl there's so much competition in the music industry that I don't I just am not a competitive person I don't understand it it's not that theater isn't competitive there there is that kind of essence as well in some ways

Speaker 4 but everybody there's just sort of this feeling of like everybody's sort of so happy to be there like we got a show guys

Speaker 8 we don't know how the page can last

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So I love that feeling. I would rather be at that, I would rather go to the Tonys than you know, the Emmys or the Oscars.

Speaker 7 But music can be such a bridge. You know, I think about how many people I know that feel so strongly about the song Gravity, for example.

Speaker 7 I mean, how, how for you, is music your way of sort of both channeling your own insecurity and all the things you're still dealing with and then trying to connect?

Speaker 4 I mean, Gravity was a song I wrote from

Speaker 4 extraordinarily brokenhearted place. I was 18 when I wrote that song, and I thought, like, the world was ending.

Speaker 4 And that song now gets to be interpreted and reinterpreted for other people's pain, even though I don't carry that same pain anymore. My hope is as a songwriter, I can work to articulate things that

Speaker 4 maybe you wouldn't quite know how to say, or other people feel like I'm the only person who feels this. And then, like, wait, she must feel it too, because it's right there in the song.

Speaker 4 Set

Speaker 4 me free,

Speaker 4 leave me be.

Speaker 4 Here I am,

Speaker 4 and I stand

Speaker 4 so tall.

Speaker 4 I'm just the way I'm supposed to be.

Speaker 3 But you're onto me

Speaker 8 and all over me.

Speaker 8 Oh,

Speaker 8 you loved me because I'm fragile.

Speaker 8 And I thought that I was strong.

Speaker 8 You touched me for a little while,

Speaker 8 and all my fragile strength is gone.

Speaker 8 Set me free,

Speaker 8 let me be.

Speaker 8 I don't wanna fall another moment into your gravity.

Speaker 8 Here I am,

Speaker 8 and I stand so

Speaker 8 and just the way I'm supposed to be.

Speaker 8 But you're onto me

Speaker 8 and all over me.

Speaker 8 I live here on my knees as I try to make you see that you're everything I think I need

Speaker 8 here on the ground.

Speaker 8 But you're neither friend nor foe, though I can't seem to let you go.

Speaker 8 The one thing that I still know is that you're keeping me

Speaker 8 down.

Speaker 6 Sarah Borella speaking with staff writer Rachel Syme. More in a moment.

Speaker 1 WNYC Studios is supported by Quince.

Speaker 3 I don't know about you, but I love fall.

Speaker 12 Crisp mornings, apple picking, and an excuse to break out my favorite layering pieces from Quince. This season's lineup is simple, but smart and easy with Quince.

Speaker 12 $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like an everyday luxury, and wool coats that are equal parts stylish and durable.

Speaker 12 Their denim nails the fit and everyday comfort all at a fraction of what you'd expect to pay.

Speaker 12 And let's not forget that the holidays are right around the the corner, and Quince has everything you'll need for gifts they'll love.

Speaker 12 Stellar knife sets, luxurious bath towels, and impressive line of skincare. It's going to be hard not to keep all this stuff for myself.

Speaker 12 Give and get timeless holiday staples that last this season with Quince. Go to quince.com/slash radio hour for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
Now available in Canada, too.

Speaker 12 Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/slash RadioHour to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com RadioHour.

Speaker 7 This show is supported by Odoo.

Speaker 13 When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this.

Speaker 13 It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.

Speaker 13 You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out ODU at Odoo.com.
That's Odoo.com.

Speaker 11 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Dell, introducing your new Dell PC, powered by the Intel Core Ultra Processor. It helps you handle a lot, even when your holiday to-do list gets to be a lot.

Speaker 11 Because it's built with all-day battery, plus powerful AI features that help you do it all with ease, from editing images to drafting emails to summarizing large documents to multitasking.

Speaker 11 So you can organize your holiday shopping and make custom holiday decor and search for great holiday deals and respond to holiday requests and customer questions and customers requesting custom things and plan the perfect holiday dinner for vegans, vegetarians, pescatarians, and Uncle Mike's carnivore diet.

Speaker 11 Luckily, you can get a PC that helps you do it all faster, so you can get it all done. That's the power of a Dell PC with Intel inside, backed by Dell's Price Match Guarantee.

Speaker 11 Get yours today at dell.com/slash holiday. Terms and conditions apply.
See Dell.com for details.

Speaker 11 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by ATT. There's nothing better than feeling like someone has your back and that things are going to get done without you even having to ask.

Speaker 11 Like your friend offering to help you move without you even having to offer pizza and drinks first. It's a beautiful thing when someone is two steps ahead of you, quietly making your life easier.

Speaker 11 Staying connected matters. That's why in the rare event of a network outage, ATT will proactively credit you for a full day of service.
That's the ATT guarantee.

Speaker 11 Credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more, or for wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers.

Speaker 11 Must be connected to impacted tower at onset of outage, restrictions, and exclusions apply. See ATT.com slash guarantee for full details.
ATT, connecting changes everything.

Speaker 7 I wanted to talk about a sentence from your book that I wanted to sort of hear what you think about it now, where you wrote, nothing makes me more panicky and rage filled than the worry that I've done something in order to position myself for business over art.

Speaker 7 And I wonder where you feel like the seesaw is right now between commerce and art, especially as the music business is ever-changing. You know, where how are you fighting the good fight for art?

Speaker 4 I don't think art itself is vulnerable. I think artists are vulnerable.
I watch a lot of young artists get popular really quickly because of the way the mechanism functions at this point.

Speaker 4 Like there used to be more time. The idea that like it was a slow burn and there is something valuable about it being a slow burn.

Speaker 4 And I watch a lot of these young artists freak out, cancel big shows, and I don't fault them for this. I feel like the

Speaker 4 exponential growth is more than could possibly be metabolized by an artist at that.

Speaker 4 You know, you're playing 100 people one day and then two months later you're playing to like, you know 50,000 people it's not it's not normal I think you have to be really clear on why are you making what you're making if it's to get magazine covers or if it's to get rich

Speaker 4 I would really encourage you to do something else because art doesn't

Speaker 4 art doesn't have time for that because I think creation is a holy act.

Speaker 4 I think it's sacred work and I think it's like ministry to take care of the world world with making art.

Speaker 7 Well, I know you've had the chance to meet and perform with many of your heroes and you know, Carol King and be mentored in the industry a little bit by the people that came before.

Speaker 7 Do you know, you're in your 40s now, we talked about that. Do you feel a responsibility to mentor younger artists at this stage?

Speaker 3 Totally.

Speaker 4 I mean, I think more than anything, I just feel a responsibility to show up authentically. Like I'm someone who I'm aging naturally and I might change my mind about that.

Speaker 4 But I'm like, what does it look like for me to just be

Speaker 4 like to not try to hide the person that I am turning into? Not to, I'm not trying to piss anybody off by getting wrinkles on my forehead.

Speaker 4 I'm just, this is what it looks like when you're lucky enough to grow up and lucky enough to get to age.

Speaker 4 And so I feel like that's the thing I feel responsibility to is to is to keep trying to show up authentically.

Speaker 4 and I'm not always going to get it right, and it's going to piss people off sometimes, but

Speaker 4 it really matters to me.

Speaker 4 Sitting in the morning sun,

Speaker 8 I'll be sitting till the evening comes,

Speaker 8 watching the ships roll in.

Speaker 8 Then I'll watch them roll away again.

Speaker 6 Songwriter and performer Sarah Borelis. She spoke with the New Yorkers Rachel Syme.
I'm David Remnick, and that's our program for today.

Speaker 6 I want to close the program and begin the new year by thanking everyone at the Radio Hour and at the New Yorker. And thank you for listening and a happy new year.

Speaker 4 Now you whistle, ready?

Speaker 4 It's terrible. Keep going.

Speaker 5 The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbis of Tune Yards.

Speaker 4 Okay, so this is my theory.

Speaker 4 This is my theory. No one can like be tough when they're whistling like that.

Speaker 15 You were pretty good.

Speaker 3 You were pretty good.

Speaker 8 This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer.

Speaker 1 With guidance from Emily Botine and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

Speaker 5 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Torina Endowment Fund.

Speaker 9 We're interrupting this podcast to ask you a very important question. Have you had your Hershey's?

Speaker 9 When you need to brighten up your day, put a smile on your face with the classic creamy texture and pure milk chocolate flavor of Hershey's Milk Chocolate.

Speaker 9 Whether you're eating it on the go, breaking off a few pieces for s'mores night, or just treating yourself to something sweet, Hershey's Milk Chocolate checks all the boxes.

Speaker 9 Shop for Hershey's Milk Chocolate now at a store near you. Found wherever candy is sold.

Speaker 10 New markdowns are on at your Nordstrom Rack store. Save even more, up to 70%

Speaker 10 on dresses, tops, boots, and handbags to give and get.

Speaker 4 Because I always find something amazing.

Speaker 3 Just so many good brands.

Speaker 9 I get an extra 5% off with my Nordstrom credit card.

Speaker 3 Total Queen Treatment.

Speaker 10 Join the Nordy Club at Nordstrom Rack to unlock our best deals. Big gifts, big perks.
That's why you rack.