Sarah McBride Wasn’t Looking for a Fight on Trans Rights

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Speaker 5 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

Speaker 6 Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

Speaker 6 Sarah McBride was just elected to the House of Representatives from the state of Delaware. She's a Democrat and is currently serving in the state Senate.

Speaker 6 And McBride is the first transgender person elected to Congress ever. She'll take her seat in the Capitol in January.

Speaker 6 But during the orientation for new members, some of McBride's future colleagues already mobilized attacks against her.

Speaker 6 Representative Nancy Mace of South Carolina introduced a bill targeted at McBride requiring her to use the men's bathroom.

Speaker 7 It's not going to end here. This shouldn't be going on on any federal property.
If you're a school or an institution that gets government funding, this kind of thing should be banned.

Speaker 7 I think it's sick. It's twisted.

Speaker 6 Speaker Mike Johnson chimed in, making remarks that denied trans identity altogether on what he called scriptural grounds. A man is a man and a woman is a woman and a man cannot become a woman.

Speaker 6 This is a very different environment from the one McBride is leaving. in the Delaware State House.

Speaker 6 In Delaware, McBride talked mainly about working across the aisle and she campaigned on access to health care or increasing the minimum wage. She didn't talk all that much about her gender identity.

Speaker 6 But it's hardly a surprise that Republicans would target her in Washington. Donald Trump's media campaign went all in with anti-trans messaging.
One ad said, Kamala Harris is for they, them.

Speaker 6 President Trump is for you.

Speaker 6 I spoke with Sarah McBride last week.

Speaker 6 Sarah, most

Speaker 6 new members of Congress, all of them in fact, face orientation. You have faced something highly unusual.
First, tell me what normal orientation is.

Speaker 5 Well, normal orientation

Speaker 5 is a two-week series of sessions for new members of Congress who all come together, stay together at a hotel, and go to session after session, learning how to set up their office, learning the legislative process.

Speaker 5 But it is truly a two-week immersive Congress educational experience.

Speaker 5 And I think in many ways, I got a fuller orientation this week where I actually got to see not just the nuts and bolts of Congress, but also

Speaker 5 some of the performance of Congress, too.

Speaker 6 Well, let's talk about that.

Speaker 6 Nancy Mace, one of your colleagues now, immediately came forward and decided that this would be a good time, a perfect time, to introduce a bathroom bill, all directed at you.

Speaker 6 So, how did you take this piece of what can only be called aggression?

Speaker 5 I always knew

Speaker 5 that there would be some members of the Republican caucus who would seek to use my service representing the greatest state in the union in Congress as an opportunity for them to distract from the fact that they have absolutely no real policy solutions for the issues that actually plague this country, and in some cases, to grab headlines themselves.

Speaker 5 I was not surprised that there was an effort to politicize an issue that no one truly cares about, what bathroom I use. I did think that it might wait until January.

Speaker 5 It happened a little earlier than I anticipated. I was still getting lost in the tunnels of the Capitol when we got the news that this was coming.

Speaker 6 What was your first reaction to it?

Speaker 5 Here we go.

Speaker 5 You know, throughout the campaign, I really focused my campaign on my record in the Delaware General Assembly of passing paid leave, expanding access to health care, and the kitchen table issues that I know keep voters across Delaware up at night that I will be working on in Congress, like lowering the cost of housing, healthcare, and childcare.

Speaker 5 But I also said as I got questions about the...

Speaker 5 added responsibilities that sometimes come with being a first,

Speaker 5 the first thing I would always say is that I know that the only way I can do right by any community I'm a part of is to quite simply be the best member of Congress for Delaware that I can be, to be an effective member working on all of the issues that matter.

Speaker 6 When I was watching this play out on television and reading about it in the past week or two, I looked up how the first black member of Congress was received, Hiram Revell.

Speaker 6 You know, this is in the 19th century. And he was treated with a great deal more respect than you were.

Speaker 6 And so I understand your desire to be poised about this and straightforward and to move the issues to the issues you ran on.

Speaker 6 But I wonder what your emotional reaction to what you could only have taken as an enormous gesture of deep disrespect. What was it?

Speaker 5 Look, I'm human

Speaker 5 and it never feels good to be

Speaker 5 used as an opportunity to get headlines. It never feels good to have people talk about deeply personal things.

Speaker 5 I think I knew what I was signing up for, though. I know what the Republican Party in this country in Congress has become.

Speaker 6 Which is what?

Speaker 5 I think a party that is more interested in performance art and being professional provocateurs than being serious legislators and a serious governing party.

Speaker 5 I think they have come to the conclusion that they are able

Speaker 5 to get enough votes if they occasionally throw red meat to folks, because that red meat might satiate what is an authentic crisis of hope that I think people across this country face right now.

Speaker 5 And I think we have to be crystal clear in calling them out on what they are doing.

Speaker 5 and pull the curtain back to really dull the effect that these manufactured culture wars have on the American voter, because I think some people do receive this red meat and it resonates with them.

Speaker 5 It makes them feel better, but it doesn't actually address the real pain in their lives.

Speaker 5 And I think we should be calling that out and obviously modeling an approach to governing that genuinely solves the real problems that people are facing that.

Speaker 5 creates a level of insecurity and fear that allows for culture wars to satiate at least something instantaneously. But I truly believe that if we solve problems, if we are serious, people respond.

Speaker 5 And I've seen that in Delaware as we have passed paid leave, raised the minimum wage, voters here in Delaware are sort of bucking this national trend where we've expanded our majorities both in 2022 and 2024 in the Delaware General Assembly, I believe, is a byproduct of a record of results that voters are responding to and a message focused on kitchen table issues and economic issues.

Speaker 5 And it's allowed us to not only expand our majorities, but to break through the culture wars that the Republican Party has pursued because we're in Delaware in the Philadelphia media market.

Speaker 5 We are getting those anti-trans Trump ads pumped into our state like we were in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 5 And yet, despite that, running on a message of paid leave, higher minimum wage, union protections, a trans candidate not only won here in Delaware, but actually outperformed every major Democrat running for major office in Delaware statewide.

Speaker 6 Aaron Powell, and yet it's said that the notorious ads, Trump ads, that were oriented around anti-trans sentiment, right, that Kamala Harris is for they, them, Donald Trump is for you,

Speaker 5 not only

Speaker 6 did they occur, they worked

Speaker 6 certainly in the interpretation of not only the Republicans, but the press at large, and that they ran them over and over

Speaker 6 And they poured millions of dollars into them. And the interpretation of many people had a big effect on at least the national election.

Speaker 5 So first off, I think there are two things. One, this country is still entering into a conversation about trans people.

Speaker 5 This country still is at a trans 101 spot.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 one of the things I think Democrats have to be more mindful of is that leaders should always be out in front of public opinion.

Speaker 5 But in order to foster change in public opinion, we've got to be within arms distance of the public so that we can pull them along with us.

Speaker 5 If we get too out ahead of it, we lose our grip and we're unable to pull the public with us.

Speaker 5 And I think we have to be more mindful of that as Democrats, as leaders, as people who believe in the actual hard work of change making and to recognize that that is the art of addition.

Speaker 6 Is that what's responsible for your calm in talking about this?

Speaker 6 I remember very well that Barack Obama, early in his political career, said he did not support gay marriage, or at least he would back off and say he was undecided.

Speaker 6 And everything I know about Obama tells me that even at the time, he probably did support it, but didn't want to get out too far ahead, politically speaking. Clearly, he changed later on.

Speaker 6 Is that part of your calculus and the way you talk about this? Because

Speaker 6 Alexandria Casio-Cortez, for one, answered Nancy Mace in much more vitriolic terms.

Speaker 8 The idea that Nancy Mace wants little girls and women to drop drow in front of who, an investigator? Who would that be?

Speaker 8 In order because she wants to suspect and point fingers at who she thinks is trans is disgusting. It is disgusting.

Speaker 8 And frankly, all it does is allow these Republicans to go around and bully any woman who isn't wearing a skirt because they think she might not look woman enough.

Speaker 8 People have a right to express themselves, to dress how they want, and to be who they are.

Speaker 8 And if a woman doesn't look woman enough to a Republican, they want to be able to inspect her genitals to use a bathroom. It's disgusting.

Speaker 8 And everybody, no matter how you feel on this issue, should reject it completely.

Speaker 5 I think there is a space for a diversity of messengers and a diversity of message.

Speaker 5 I would never presume what was in Barack Obama's heart and mind on the issue of marriage equality. Many people authentically evolved.

Speaker 5 What we do know is that as the movement for marriage equality moved forward, the most effective messengers for marriage were not same-sex couples, were not parents of same-sex couples or kids of same-sex couples.

Speaker 5 The most effective messengers for marriage equality were those who evolved.

Speaker 5 And they were effective because they gave a permission structure to people who had not yet gotten there that it was okay to to be uncomfortable. It was okay to be on the other side of the issue.

Speaker 5 You weren't a bad person. You weren't wrong.

Speaker 5 And by giving people permission to be wrong, it created the space and grace for people to grow. And I think we need more grace in our politics if we want people to actually grow.

Speaker 5 My motto has always been, I'll extend grace so long as people demonstrate growth. But that is a two-way street.

Speaker 5 And I think that we are shooting ourselves in the foot as people who believe in progress when we create no incentive for people to grow because they perceive that they will be permanently guilty for having been wrong.

Speaker 5 And we create no space for them to grow by extending no grace for them to actually walk there. I mean, I think one of the reasons why we see people pushed into their respective corners is because

Speaker 5 you say something that's deemed problematic, and you are immediately hounded by one side and immediately embraced by the other side.

Speaker 5 And human nature is to, when faced with that degree of extreme binary reactions, to go to the people who are validating you instantaneously.

Speaker 5 And so we unintentionally actually push people further and further into their own corners and into their negative opinion by responding with a degree of condemnation and vitriol that creates no incentive and space for them to grow.

Speaker 5 But I actually want to say something on those ads because you did say the key sentence in that ad.

Speaker 5 It wasn't the surgery point. It wasn't the undocumented immigrant point.
It wasn't the trans point.

Speaker 5 It was the concept in that line that Kamala Harris, according to the ad, was for a small group of people and Donald Trump was there for you.

Speaker 5 And I think the lesson of this moment is that we should be flipping that script because that's the authentic thing. Kamala Harris was for everyone,

Speaker 5 and Democrats are for everyone.

Speaker 5 And every single time Republicans focus in on a small, vulnerable group of people, not only are they trying to distract from the fact that they have no real solutions, not only are they trying to employ the politics of misdirection to move your attention away from the fact that in that same moment they're trying to pick the pocket of American workers, undermine union protections, and fleece seniors by privatizing Medicare through the back door, But every bit of time and energy that is diverted to attack trans people, that diverts the attention of the federal government away toward attacking trans people is time and energy that is not being spent on you.

Speaker 5 It's time and attention that's not being spent on raising your wages or improving your benefits or lowering the cost of living. And so these attacks have costs.

Speaker 5 Republicans are focused on attacking a small group of people, and we are here to actually address the issues that you care about.

Speaker 6 That's Sarah McBride, the incoming House member representing the state of Delaware. Our conversation continues in a moment.
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Speaker 6 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Ramnick.

Speaker 6 I've been speaking today with Sarah McBride, who was just elected to the House as the sole representative for the state of Delaware.

Speaker 6 McBride's been an activist with the Human Rights Campaign and later worked on a campaign for Bo Biden. She remains a friend of the Biden family.

Speaker 6 McBride is transgender and the first trans person ever elected to Congress. When she arrived at the Capitol, it was to a Republican attack.

Speaker 6 Representative Nancy Mace introduced a bill that would require McBride to use the men's bathroom.

Speaker 6 But in our conversation, McBride seemed to take this in stride to a degree that seemed remarkable to me. She's fully prepared for how challenging it's going to be to be the first.

Speaker 6 We'll continue our conversation now.

Speaker 6 I wonder what kind of support or the opposite you felt in your orientation sessions after Nancy Mace made the statement she did.

Speaker 5 I have been overwhelmed and heartened by the love and the support of my Democratic colleagues. It was stunning.
You know, I got to Washington and I'm at orientation.

Speaker 5 I'm grateful that I had a week before all of this started because I had a week to just marvel at the fact that I was there.

Speaker 5 I had a week to marvel at the fact that I am serving in a body that Abraham Lincoln served in.

Speaker 5 One of the first nights we were there, we gathered in Statuary Hall, which is the old hall of the House, which is where Abraham Lincoln served.

Speaker 5 And then after we gathered there, we walked onto the floor of the United States House of Representatives, where they moved in 1857, just before the Civil War broke out.

Speaker 5 We sat in the chairs and I thought, this is the space that the 13th Amendment and the 14th Amendment were passed. This is the space where women got the right to vote.

Speaker 5 This is the space. These are the chairs.
This is the job of the people who voted to pass the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.

Speaker 5 And you feel this awesome responsibility, not just to deliver on the tangible policies for the constituents you serve in that moment, but you also feel that deep responsibility as you realize that you are one of a little more than 500 people.

Speaker 5 who have the responsibility to be stewards of a democracy, of the longest ongoing democracy in the world.

Speaker 5 That is an awe-inspiring responsibility. And I'm really grateful that I had that opportunity.

Speaker 5 But what was made that much more meaningful was that in that second week, as all of this noise happened, as I continued to be focused on the actual work that I was there to do,

Speaker 5 the love and the support that came in from my Democratic colleagues really reinforced what I had already been hearing, which is that that caucus is a family.

Speaker 6 And what about the Republican side? Did you get any support from there?

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 Look, there was a lot unsaid, but there was kindness and clear intentionality to say, welcome to Congress.

Speaker 5 It's wonderful to serve with you.

Speaker 5 That

Speaker 5 was quite a contrast to some of the other behavior we saw that week.

Speaker 6 People actually coming up to you from the Republican side and embracing you in one way or another.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 Staff and members.

Speaker 6 The Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, released a statement that said all single-sex facilities facilities are for people of that, quote, biological sex, unquote.

Speaker 6 You responded to this on X, formerly Twitter, it's interesting that you're still on Twitter, by calling this a distraction and saying that you'll follow the rules as outlined by Johnson.

Speaker 6 But what do you say to people in the trans community who think you didn't go far enough?

Speaker 5 I understand

Speaker 5 that at a moment where you are scared,

Speaker 5 that you want to see someone fight.

Speaker 5 I understand that when you are a first, there are a lot of people who never dreamed that something like this would be possible who are

Speaker 5 living on that journey with you. And so they feel very deeply the experience of discrimination.
They feel very viscerally the experience of disrespect.

Speaker 5 I think what I would say is one, this was not done to bar me from restrooms. This was done to invite me to take a bait and a fight.

Speaker 5 I am maintaining my power by turning the other cheek and doing what I promised Delawareans I would do, which is to focus on the job in front of me.

Speaker 5 Yes, when that calls for me to defend my LGBTQ constituents, I will do that. When it calls on me to defend workers in my state, I will do that.

Speaker 5 When it calls on me to defend retirees in my state, I will do that.

Speaker 5 But I should not be the issue.

Speaker 6 You must have anticipated, if not this, then something like it. And you, of course, knew that you would be a first, a historical first.

Speaker 5 Do you face a lot of threats?

Speaker 5 You know, I think one of the problems in our politics right now is the level of toxicity has resulted in

Speaker 5 far too many people seeking to solve political disputes, not at the ballot box, but through violence.

Speaker 5 And so

Speaker 5 I am certainly not alone in Congress and having to think through that. I think it's very early.
There have been moments throughout my life where I have had to be cognizant.

Speaker 5 I've never had a job where I have not received death threats. Literally, I have never had a job, even when I was in my first junior level position.
How do you handle them?

Speaker 5 Well, fortunately, we've got great law enforcement here in Delaware that I have worked with over the course of this campaign throughout my time in the state Senate.

Speaker 5 Look, one of the things that I grappled with when i decided to run for this position

Speaker 5 is the risk that comes with being a first at this level even though i didn't run to be a first there's obviously risk that comes with it and there was a moment where i almost didn't do it because of because of the fear yeah tell me about that was it a specific incident or just a generalized fear there were some rumors about

Speaker 5 what some far right wing groups might try to do should I run that that fortunately didn't materialize.

Speaker 6 When did this come up?

Speaker 5 This was before I announced. There was a lot of speculation about me running.

Speaker 6 So what within you allowed you to make the leap and declare yourself a candidate for Congress?

Speaker 5 A couple of things. First off, I think that we delude ourselves into thinking that people don't take these types of steps without fear.
People aren't fearless.

Speaker 5 Bravery only comes into play when you face those fears.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 5 When you pursue something despite the fears. But I think for me, I think I felt in that moment, one, I really think I have something to contribute.

Speaker 5 I really do believe that we are at an inflection point where we need a politics of grace in this country if we are going to have any chance at not only restoring our capacity to have a national dialogue, which is fundamentally necessary in a democracy, but to actually make government work better.

Speaker 5 And I genuinely felt like I had something to contribute. With that respect, I think I know how to get things done.
I know how to legislate.

Speaker 6 But you're going to have to embody grace, and there's every sign that you already do, but with a president that says publicly something like this, your kid goes to school and a few days later comes home with an operation.

Speaker 6 That's the president of the United States come January 20th. How do you combat that? and all that's behind it and embody grace.

Speaker 5 So I think a couple of things and i think this extends beyond donald trump so i'm gonna i'm gonna step back a little bit

Speaker 5 i think democrats struggle with extending one of our basic principles which is that no one is their worst act no one is their worst belief to people on the other side of the political divide

Speaker 5 And I'm not talking about Donald Trump right now. I'm talking about Republicans, because I think the question here is not how do I demonstrate grace in the face of Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 It's how do I demonstrate grace in a world where people

Speaker 5 that I work with, where even people that I represent, hold positions and beliefs about who I am that are personally hurtful, potentially.

Speaker 5 And I think all of us need to do a better job of seeing the humanity of people on the other side of the aisle, seeing the pain.

Speaker 5 Because I think what happens in this country right now is the left says to the right, what do you know about pain, white straight man? My pain is real as an LGBTQ person.

Speaker 5 And the right says to the left, what do you know know about pain, college-educated, cosmopolitan elite? My pain is real in a post-industrial community ravaged by the opioid crisis.

Speaker 5 And I know that when I am upset, the worst thing that someone can say to me, even if it is said with the best of intentions, is, it's not as bad as you think.

Speaker 5 Any therapist will tell you that the first step to healing is to have your pain seen and validated.

Speaker 5 And I think all of us have to do a better job of recognizing that people don't have to be right in our mind for what they're facing to be wrong.

Speaker 5 And people don't have to be right in our minds for us to try to right that wrong.

Speaker 5 And I think that that comes down to sort of a core recognition that every single person is more than just one thing about them. And every single person is more than

Speaker 5 even beliefs that might personally hurt many other people.

Speaker 5 And the other thing I'll say about that is to a similar point,

Speaker 5 early on in my career, I went viral for something.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 ironically enough, it was, I was an advocate. It was a selfie in a bathroom in North Carolina that I was technically barred from being in.

Speaker 6 I see.

Speaker 5 And the vitriol that came back to me as a 20-something-year-old

Speaker 5 was

Speaker 5 so dehumanizing and so cruel and so mean. And it was the closest in my life that I have ever been to

Speaker 5 suicide becoming a rational thought. I wasn't suicidal, but it was the first moment where I just went, I want to end this miserable experience.

Speaker 6 What was coming at you?

Speaker 5 I mean, just the level of online bullying and harassment. And it was amazing to me that person after person telling me to kill myself could actually

Speaker 5 hurt me. But it was just, it was an onslaught.
And again, I was in my mid-20s, 25. I was new to all this.
And I thought,

Speaker 5 maybe I don't have skin thick enough for this. And so I sort of went on a

Speaker 5 journey to understand the psychology of trolling and bullying.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I think it was a podcast, a This American Life podcast, by a writer who talks a lot about her own weight and grapples with her own body image in a really public and vulnerable way,

Speaker 5 talking about the experience that she had writing about that hurt and getting outreach from one of her worst bullies and trolls online, someone who had created a Twitter account as her deceased father to troll her from,

Speaker 5 who opened up to her about what was motivating him.

Speaker 5 And listening to that conversation, it really helped me internalize a truth that has, I think, allowed me to find balance and grace in the face of hatred or cruelty.

Speaker 5 And that was everyone deals with an insecurity. Everyone deals with something that society has told them that they should be ashamed of or that they should hide.

Speaker 5 And the thing about me is that I have taken that insecurity, that thing that society has said you should be ashamed of and you should keep quiet.

Speaker 5 And I've I've not only accepted it, but I walk forward from a place of pride in it. And bullies see that.

Speaker 5 They see that individual agency in conquering my own fears and insecurities and they're jealous of that.

Speaker 5 And I think that has allowed me to find compassion for folks who respond to me and sometimes the way that they do to recognize that I hope too they can find the power to overcome whatever pain is plaguing them.

Speaker 6 And so much so that when Nancy Mace made the comments that she did and put forward the bill that she did,

Speaker 6 are you able to see it in those terms and

Speaker 6 not receive the attacks with the same despair that you did when you were in your 20s?

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 6 That's an enormous transformation.

Speaker 5 I won't say that it doesn't hurt, but yes,

Speaker 5 I am not distracted in the same way that I was.

Speaker 6 Distracted is a small word for it. I mean, what you felt in your 20s must have been a lot lot worse than distracted.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I am able to contextualize it and not feel the pain as much. Again, it doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt, but I am able to work through it.

Speaker 5 How?

Speaker 6 That's a very hard thing. Is it therapy? Is it maturation? Is it living in your skin 10 years longer? What is it?

Speaker 5 I think the last two. It's maturation, and I think it's just finding a confidence in myself that allows me not to internalize.
And again,

Speaker 5 I really do seek to find compassion for the people who are acting out, who say the things that they do, because that does help me.

Speaker 5 That does help me to try to see and understand where a person is coming from.

Speaker 5 Even if the action itself explicitly or implicitly is not well-intentioned, even if it's being done for cynical purposes, to try to understand that there is still a person behind that and maybe there's something in their life that has pushed them to engage in the way that they're engaging in.

Speaker 6 In a certain number of weeks, you're not only going to have to hear about Nancy Mace,

Speaker 6 you're going to have to work with her. And you talk a lot about working across the aisle, which is a phrase that we hear from politicians all the time.

Speaker 6 This takes on new levels of meaning, working across the aisle with Nancy Mace. Can you do it?

Speaker 5 Well, I look forward to

Speaker 5 working with colleagues on the Republican side of the aisle who are serious about the work that they're doing, who have disagreements with me, perhaps profound disagreements with me, but who are serious about getting things done.

Speaker 6 For the first time in our conversation, I sense you're

Speaker 6 reluctant to answer the question directly, with all respect.

Speaker 5 I will work with anyone who's willing to work with me. And I don't know

Speaker 5 this individual member of Congress. I had barely heard of her before this.

Speaker 5 I will never say that anyone is beyond redemption.

Speaker 6 I want to zoom out a bit now and talk about your own unique path to politics in Congress. Your late husband, Andrew Cray, was an LGBTQ health advocate and attorney.
What kind of work did he focus on?

Speaker 6 And what of his legacy can be seen in your own political career career and direction

Speaker 5 so andy was

Speaker 5 the kindest smartest and this is very important for me in a partner the goofiest person that i had ever met

Speaker 5 just a really good and decent person how'd you meet

Speaker 5 so we bumped into each other at a white house pride reception during the uh fourth year of the obama administration 2012.

Speaker 5 and uh after that he reached back out to me on social media on facebook and he said that he thought we'd get along swimmingly.

Speaker 5 And I thought, who the hell in their 20s says the word swimmingly?

Speaker 5 But like clearly someone I want to spend some time with.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 we went out on a date and I fell in love pretty quickly.

Speaker 6 Was he already sick?

Speaker 5 No. So he was, he was an attorney, as you mentioned, working on health policy, and he was actually working on the implementation of the Affordable Care Act.

Speaker 5 So he was a brilliant, brilliant mind, but also, and I think this goes back to our conversation about Grace. He was

Speaker 5 so principled. I remember we had a debate once where he won me over.
We had a debate about whether it was appropriate to out anti-LGBTQ politicians who were in the closet themselves.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I was of the mind that their hypocrisy called on us to out them.

Speaker 5 And he was of the mind that if the principle that we are fighting for, that everyone should be able to live their life fully and freely, be able to live their sexual orientation and gender identity the way they see fit and the way they need to, if that is not an unbreakable first principle, then what is?

Speaker 5 And principles only matter when you have seemingly altruistic reasons to violate them.

Speaker 5 And so he was someone of just immense grace, principled grace.

Speaker 5 He got sick about a year into our relationship.

Speaker 5 We

Speaker 5 never would have imagined that cancer would enter our lives in our mid-20s.

Speaker 5 You know, my brother, who's a radiation oncologist, said to me, I've seen a lot of people pass away from cancer.

Speaker 5 And one thing you should try to take stock in over the weeks ahead as Andy's health deteriorated was that I was going to bear witness to acts of amazing grace that would fill my life.

Speaker 5 And truly that grace and those miracles were everywhere.

Speaker 5 And I think it has fundamentally shifted my perspective on the world and my ability to see that grace, to see beauty and tragedy, and to recognize that hope as an emotion

Speaker 5 only makes sense in the face of hardship.

Speaker 6 So in other words, you're thinking about him all the time through this.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 6 And what does that do for you?

Speaker 5 It makes me feel less alone in navigating this. It makes me feel

Speaker 5 more confident in what I'm doing and how I'm trying to go about this. There's certainly things that I wish I could talk to him about and get his perspective on, but

Speaker 5 I try to take the lessons from our couple of years together. and try to draw those lessons into action in this moment.

Speaker 6 We We began our conversation with you talking about how moved you were to be in the halls of Congress for the first time as a soon-to-be member and seeing and sensing all that had happened in progressive terms, in liberatory terms, over time and in previous centuries.

Speaker 6 My guess is this is not going to characterize the next two years for you in Congress, that the Democratic Party in large measure will be fighting a rearguard measure against all kinds of initiatives by a Trump presidency and a Republican Congress.

Speaker 6 How do you anticipate the coming next two years? What kind of role will the Democrats and you play?

Speaker 6 What will be your day-to-day life, do you think?

Speaker 5 There's no question that we've got our work cut out for us. There's no question that we're going to have to push back on a lot of damaging and dangerous policies.

Speaker 5 But look, I think The biggest challenge right now for us, the challenge for us is not that we understand that there's a fight and we will do the work.

Speaker 5 The challenge is going to be to summon the hope necessary to see that fight through.

Speaker 5 And I think that one of the challenges that we have in this country right now, particularly for Democrats, is that really since the 1960s, it has felt like if we simply work for it, if we vote for it, if we volunteer, if we share our stories, if we lift our voices, that we can then inevitably bend the arc of the moral universe toward justice.

Speaker 5 And we felt it, I think, particularly in 2008 and when we elected Barack Obama, and then ACA passes, and marriage equality becomes the law of the land.

Speaker 5 And it just felt like there was this unfolding sense of great progress.

Speaker 5 It felt like if we simply worked for it, change was inevitable. And it feels different right now.

Speaker 5 It doesn't feel like if we simply work for it and fight for it, that change will come, that things will work out. We can't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Speaker 5 But the other thing that I thought about as I sat in that chair on the floor of the House, about not only the elected officials that serve there, but all of the advocates and activists and citizens who lived through those different chapters in our country's history.

Speaker 5 We have to recognize that that sense of inevitability with hard work that we felt 20 years ago, 30 years ago, that's the exception in our country's history.

Speaker 5 Every single previous generation of Americans has been called to conquer odds much greater than the ones that we're facing right now. And they had every reason to believe that change would not come.

Speaker 5 They could not see the light at the end of the tunnel. Enslaved people in the 1850s had no reason to believe that an emancipation proclamation was on the horizon.

Speaker 5 Unemployed workers during the early days of the Great Depression had never heard of a new deal.

Speaker 5 Patrons at the Stonewall Inn never knew of a country where they could live openly and authentically as themselves, and yet they persevered.

Speaker 5 They summoned their hope, they found that light, and ultimately they changed the world.

Speaker 6 The narrative you describe is very, how do I put it, Obamian.

Speaker 6 It reminds me of Obama's speech in Selma, the last one he gave, about a kind of parade of American heroic advance.

Speaker 6 And when I talk to a lot of younger people in my office, in my life, family, They don't all share the sense of determined hope that you do.

Speaker 6 There's a good deal of depressed, if not giving up, then a kind of

Speaker 6 sense that

Speaker 6 these are going to be very dark times to come. And with all the emergencies surrounding us at home and abroad and environmentally, it's very hard to muster hope.

Speaker 6 And as a politician, as a member of Congress, what do you tell them?

Speaker 5 Well, one is just what we just talked about. You cannot tell me that the reasons for hopelessness now are greater than the reasons for hopelessness of an enslaved person.

Speaker 5 You cannot tell me that the reasons for hopelessness now are greater than the insecurity and the fear of workers in the midst of the Great Depression and a country that very easily could have fallen into totalitarianism and fascism as many liberal democracies around the world were falling into that in the early 30s.

Speaker 5 Hope

Speaker 5 is not always an organic emotion.

Speaker 5 Sometimes we have to consciously find it and consciously summon it.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 yes, there are big challenges right now. Maybe those challenges are insurmountable.
Maybe we will be, because of social media,

Speaker 5 incapable of restoring our capacity to have a national dialogue. Maybe because of the culture that we live in right now, we will no longer be able to have conversations across disagreement.

Speaker 5 Maybe because of unchecked wealth and corporate power, we won't be able to conquer climate change. The list goes on.
Maybe.

Speaker 5 But we would be the first generation of Americans to give up on this country. And we would be the first generation of Americans who were unable to find the path forward.

Speaker 5 And I just don't believe that we are. And I certainly believe that we don't have to be.

Speaker 6 Sarah McBride, thank you so much.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 6 Sarah McBride, Democrat of Delaware. She'll take her seat in Congress this coming January.

Speaker 6 I'm David Remnick. That's our program for today.
If you're traveling this week, be safe, good luck, and have a wonderful holiday.

Speaker 5 The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Speaker 5 Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbis of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

Speaker 5 This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer.

Speaker 6 And we had additional help this week from Mike Kuchman.

Speaker 5 With guidance from Emily Botine and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barrish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

Speaker 5 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Charina Endowment Fund. Fund.

Speaker 5 It's one of Britain's most notorious crimes, the killing of a wealthy family at Whitehouse Farm. But I got a tip that the story of this famous case might be all wrong.

Speaker 6 I know there's going to be a twist, won't they? A massive twist. At every level of the criminal justice system, there's been a cover-up in this case.

Speaker 5 I'm Heidi Blake. Blood Relatives is a new series from In the Dark and The New Yorker.
Find it now in the In the Dark podcast feed.