Liz Cheney on Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell, and Jeff Bezos

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Speaker 2 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

Speaker 1 Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

Speaker 1 We've seen in recent months and weeks something absolutely unprecedented in politics.

Speaker 1 A range of prominent security and military officials and Republican politicians have not only come out against Donald Trump, but they've also declared him a security threat, unfit, and in some cases, a fascist.

Speaker 1 Let's not lose sight of how unique that is. Way out in front of this trend was Liz Cheney.
Up until 2021, Cheney was the third-ranking Republican in Congress.

Speaker 1 Then after the January 6th insurrection, Cheney voted to impeach Donald Trump, and she served as vice chair of the House Committee Investigating January 6th.

Speaker 1 She knew that would cost her her seat in Congress, and it did. Wyoming voters sent her packing.

Speaker 1 Since I last spoke with Liz Cheney about her memoir, Oath and Honor, she's taken the step of campaigning on behalf of Vice President Harris. We spoke last week at the New Yorker Festival.

Speaker 2 You know, I've obviously been around campaigns for a long time, and

Speaker 2 I have a

Speaker 2 having had, I think, a perspective that very few people have, having been deeply involved and engaged inside Republican presidential politics and now

Speaker 2 on the other side,

Speaker 2 you know, when I look at having spent

Speaker 2 time on the road campaigning with Vice President Harris,

Speaker 2 having watched her interact with and talk to independent voters, undecided voters. We are very closely divided nation, there's no question.
But

Speaker 2 when you think about at the end of the day,

Speaker 2 what is really moving people is what a second Trump term would mean for the women of this country. And women, and I say this

Speaker 2 as someone who has been pro-life,

Speaker 2 but there are women across this country who are watching what's happening in places like Texas, in places like North Carolina, who are watching state legislatures make decisions that are preventing women from getting fundamental basic health care.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 at the end of the day, when you look at the percentages of women who vote versus percentages of men,

Speaker 2 I think that we will see absolutely that you've got a lot more people who will be voting for Vice President Harris, who may not be saying it publicly, but at the end of the day, it'll be enough to pull her over the edge.

Speaker 1 Just to put

Speaker 1 a little pressure on that point in terms of prediction, in 2016, the polls underpolled Donald Trump. In 2020, that happened again, in fact, rather severely in some states.

Speaker 1 Why won't that happen again?

Speaker 2 I think there are a couple of things going on. One is that you've got

Speaker 2 polling and modeling that has been changed specifically because of that.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 secondly, what we have seen each time is that Donald Trump really has a ceiling.

Speaker 1 You were campaigning with Kamala Harris two weeks ago, three weeks ago?

Speaker 2 Last week.

Speaker 1 And you were in a really resonant place. You were in Rippon, Wisconsin.
A couple weeks ago, yeah. And you made a joint appearance with her.
This is the birthplace of the Republican Party.

Speaker 1 And it was a beautiful day. It's a very pretty town.
I've been there. The crowd is chanting, thank you, Liz.

Speaker 1 And as you began to speak, you choked up.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 it was unexpectedly moving for me. And

Speaker 2 there were a couple of reasons.

Speaker 2 One was,

Speaker 2 well, the Harris campaign had asked me a couple of days days earlier

Speaker 2 what I wanted my walk-on music to be,

Speaker 2 which I hadn't anticipated needing walk-on music.

Speaker 2 But I happened to be with one of my daughters when the request came in, and she immediately said, change Taylor Swift, Taylor's version, change.

Speaker 2 And there are some wonderful lines in there,

Speaker 2 like,

Speaker 2 they may be bigger, but we're faster and we're never scared.

Speaker 2 And so,

Speaker 2 when I first walked on stage and I heard change playing, and I looked over and I saw my daughter,

Speaker 2 and she was emotional. And the feeling of, I mean, it was

Speaker 2 very nice to hear people saying thank you.

Speaker 2 But it was also just

Speaker 2 a moment that felt like it was a bigger moment than politics. And

Speaker 2 to be there,

Speaker 2 to be saying, look, you know, as a country, we only survive if we elect people who are going to abide by their oaths of office. And to be

Speaker 2 there at, you know, where the Republican Party was founded. I was born in Wisconsin also, so it always feels like coming home.

Speaker 2 You know, looking at this question of are we going to have a president who's a fundamentally cruel and depraved person, or are we going to elect Kamala Harris, who she and I don't agree on a number of issues.

Speaker 2 But man, I absolutely know that she's going to do what she believes is right for our country, and she's going to abide by the Constitution.

Speaker 1 Trump ran against Nikki Haley in the primary.

Speaker 1 Nikki Haley here and there did quite well. Certainly a lot of votes that could mean a lot

Speaker 1 in swing states if they swing to Harris. Nikki Haley, of course, after saying horrendous things about Donald Trump, has endorsed Donald Trump.
But do you think her voters will vote for Donald Trump?

Speaker 2 Well, I think you left out a few swings of the Nikki Haley pendulum. You said a couple of things.
Yes, I did.

Speaker 2 But I have been talking to and meeting with people who supported Nikki Haley, and they are voting for for Kamala Harris.

Speaker 2 I don't think there's anything, frankly, that Nikki Haley could do to get those voters to vote for Donald Trump. And

Speaker 2 many of them, I think you will see in early voting, even already, you're beginning to see that

Speaker 2 they're voting for Vice President Harris.

Speaker 1 In recent days, we've read accounts of how the former chief of staff, John Kelly,

Speaker 1 and others have described how Donald Trump has expressed admiration for Adolf Hitler. Mark Milles, who's the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has said that Trump is a fascist.

Speaker 1 You've heard the F-word is very much in the air. Is Donald Trump a fascist?

Speaker 2 I think that

Speaker 2 you'd be hard-pressed to say he's not. And, you know, everybody has to stop and think to themselves, this is

Speaker 2 Donald Trump's longest-serving chief of staff. I think it's really important to take a step back, and this goes back to your first question, which is that we have this unprecedented

Speaker 2 coalition, this unprecedented wave of support for Vice President Harris that you've never seen before, at least in modern political history, from Republicans.

Speaker 2 And frankly, some of the Some of the bravest people who have stood up are people like the mayor of Waukesha, Wisconsin, very Republican area of Wisconsin, long-serving Republican mayor who has come out publicly and said, I'm voting for Vice President Harris.

Speaker 2 And when you see that, those people don't have to do that. And like, I believe there'll be millions of Americans who just cast the vote and don't speak publicly.

Speaker 1 But that also is a very important thing. Why is it more?

Speaker 1 Mitch McConnell has,

Speaker 1 in a book that's about to be published, I think it's an oral history,

Speaker 1 Mitch McConnell calls Trump stupid, a despicable human being, unfit.

Speaker 1 Mitch McConnell endorses Donald Trump.

Speaker 1 I don't,

Speaker 1 well, yeah.

Speaker 2 Could you help me with that? Throughout that whole period, first of all, if McConnell had voted to convict him, we wouldn't be where we are today. Donald Trump would have been convicted.
And,

Speaker 2 you know, McConnell's approach for a lot of the period since January 6th was let's just ignore him. You know, if you just ignore him,

Speaker 2 don't talk about him, he'll go away. And then when that quit working, McConnell decided to endorse him.
I mean, it's like really the opposite of a profile in courage. Leadership really matters.

Speaker 1 But what's stunning to me is this. A few weeks ago, we published excerpts from the prison diaries of Alexei Navalny.

Speaker 1 Alexei Navalny went back to Russia knowing he would be imprisoned and would likely die in a prison cell.

Speaker 1 We don't expect ordinary human beings, we don't expect of ourselves probably, to give our lives routinely for principle.

Speaker 1 But what drives Mitch McConnell to such hypocrisy? What drives the owner of the Washington Post to refuse to allow his own newspaper to publish an endorsement?

Speaker 1 This is not like he would sit in a prison cell.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, I mean,

Speaker 2 on the issue of the Washington Post,

Speaker 1 look,

Speaker 2 first of all,

Speaker 2 it's fear.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 fear is Putin's weapon, too. You know, fear is how autocrats govern.
And so while I think it's really,

Speaker 2 you know, it's a disgrace that that the Post apparently decided to pull the endorsement. I would say, say, number one, that isn't going to affect a single undecided voter anywhere in this country, but

Speaker 2 it absolutely proves the danger of Donald Trump. When you have Jeff Bezos

Speaker 2 apparently afraid to issue an endorsement for the only candidate in the race who's a stable, responsible adult because he fears Donald Trump, that tells you, that tells you why we have to work so hard to make sure that Donald Trump isn't elected.

Speaker 1 What seems to me to raise the danger is to signal to the autocrat

Speaker 1 that his people are weak and his people,

Speaker 1 even the wealthiest among them,

Speaker 1 will bow down. And without a spine, you cannot stand up.

Speaker 2 And I canceled my subscription to the Washington Post just saying.

Speaker 1 Liz Cheney, former representative from Wyoming, will continue in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

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Speaker 1 I'm speaking today with Liz Cheney, who's been campaigning for Kamala Harris.

Speaker 1 She told me that she's reconsidered not just Donald Trump himself, but what she called the toxic environment of partisanship in Washington.

Speaker 1 Is the lure of partisan politics that severe, though? You voted for Trump in 2016 and again in 2020, and it was really not until the insurrection on Capitol Hill that you broke him. I have that right?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 I spoke out against him very clearly when he did and said said things that I thought clearly had gone beyond. And

Speaker 1 when you look back on it,

Speaker 1 were you making an accommodation because you overlapped on certain issues? In other words, how does this work?

Speaker 2 I think it was a couple of things. I mean, it certainly is my biggest

Speaker 2 professional regret ever supporting him.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 you do get into a place

Speaker 2 when we certainly saw it happen with Trump, which is, well, he doesn't really mean, like, okay, what he's saying is

Speaker 2 crazy, but he doesn't really mean it.

Speaker 2 Which, of course, post-January 6th, you know, post-the 2020 election, there's no question that he means it. And

Speaker 2 I think that,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 the lesson that is so important for us now

Speaker 2 is to realize when he says things like, I'm going to terminate the Constitution, or

Speaker 2 I believe that, you know, the enemy within

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 something that should be dealt with by the deployment of military force. He means those things.

Speaker 1 Give me some insight in what it took for your father to make a similar decision and why George W. Bush has not.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 it was not a difficult decision at all for my dad.

Speaker 2 has been absolutely, I would say,

Speaker 2 as concerned

Speaker 2 for maybe even longer than I have been

Speaker 2 about the danger that Donald Trump poses.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I can't explain why George W. Bush hasn't spoken out, but I think it's time, and I wish that he would.

Speaker 1 What is our complicity in the creation of Donald Trump? I was interested to listen to the conversation with Michael Beschloss, and he said, look,

Speaker 1 and he had nothing good to say about Donald Trump, but he said, you know, there was 9-11, there were two misbegotten wars,

Speaker 1 there was

Speaker 1 NAFTA, which

Speaker 1 backfired in many ways for a lot of working-class people. There was an economic collapse and its aftermath, and a growing and growing and growing inequality in this country.

Speaker 1 Some of these dynamics helped create Donald Trump, it seems to me, inarguably. Or maybe you disagree.

Speaker 2 I mean, I see it a little bit differently than that. I think that,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 certainly there has been growing inequality.

Speaker 2 You know, I know that when I look at Wyoming and the state, the people that I used to represent,

Speaker 2 there's a very real and I believe legitimate

Speaker 2 concern and fear that people have that the government in Washington, that they can't influence it. Nobody in Washington's listening to them.

Speaker 2 If somebody issues a regulation or makes a determination about something that's going on on land that you're trying to graze cattle on, it'll destroy your livelihood immediately.

Speaker 2 And you feel like you have no recourse, no voice. And that is a very real thing.
And I think that Donald Trump absolutely tapped into that. There's no question.
I also, one more point on this.

Speaker 2 I think politicians have,

Speaker 2 for a long time, we've been toxic.

Speaker 2 And we've launched attacks at each other. And,

Speaker 2 you know, we got to a place in this country where

Speaker 2 you would hear political adversaries say that others were a threat, a threat to the Constitution or a threat to the future of the country.

Speaker 2 There's a tendency sometimes among voters to think, oh, oh, we've heard politicians issue these warnings before. So, you know, just to write off these warnings as just more politics.
And I think that

Speaker 2 also means we all have a huge responsibility when this election's over

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 2 we get back to being able to engage on substance and have vigorous debates about substance

Speaker 2 in a way that

Speaker 2 is policy-focused and oriented.

Speaker 1 You talk about

Speaker 1 this coalition and a coalition that I guess stretches from

Speaker 1 AOC to you.

Speaker 2 Dick Cheney to Taylor. Dick Cheney.

Speaker 1 Fair enough.

Speaker 1 But there weren't too many people leaping out of Congress voluntarily to stand up.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and I think it's, you know.

Speaker 2 In fact, when I talk about

Speaker 2 when I talk about the dishonor, you you know, I am talking about elected Republicans. And I think it is important

Speaker 2 to differentiate between elected Republicans and Republican voters writ large.

Speaker 1 My question to you is this, are these jobs so good?

Speaker 1 In other words, is it so cool being a congressman or a senator that you will give up your soul to not have to go back to your home district and be a teacher again or some honorable profession?

Speaker 1 Is it so amazing? I mean,

Speaker 2 yeah, I think, you know, it goes to the point like term limits, you know, which is something that I've never been a fan of term limits for members of Congress.

Speaker 2 I think there are constitutional issues, but after I watched how many elected Republicans

Speaker 2 decided that their own reelection was more important than the oath they swore to the Constitution, you know, I do think we need to think about things like term limits.

Speaker 1 There's an

Speaker 2 infinite, apparently, capacity for people to rationalize their behavior. And one of the things that I saw

Speaker 2 after the 2020 election was members of Congress who would say, and Mike Johnson was at the top of this list, we're just going to do this one more thing for Donald Trump, just one more thing.

Speaker 2 You know, we're just going to file this brief that Johnson knew was unconstitutional, illegal.

Speaker 2 We're just one more thing because that'll show him how much we support him and then he'll concede and we can all move on.

Speaker 2 You know, that's on the day of January 6th before the attack.

Speaker 2 There were these sheets laid out in the Republican cloakroom and I walked in and I could see my colleagues walking down the list signing their names on these sheets of paper.

Speaker 2 And I asked the staffer in the cloakroom what they were. And she said to me, well, those are the objections.

Speaker 2 And so people were saying, well, I'm going to object to the Arizona electors and Pennsylvania electors. And I sat there and I watched

Speaker 2 one of my colleagues come by,

Speaker 2 very big Trump supporter.

Speaker 2 And as he signed his name on the sheet, he said,

Speaker 2 kind of out loud to anybody who could hear, he said, the things we do for the orange Jesus.

Speaker 2 And that, so they know, they know what they're doing.

Speaker 1 You live long enough, you make mistakes. You live long enough, you change your mind.

Speaker 1 Sometimes it's not the courage of one's convictions, but it's the courage to change one's convictions. God knows it's happened to me.
I've written things that I look back on

Speaker 1 and regret.

Speaker 1 In 2019, you said of the Democrats, they've become the party of anti-Semitism, they've become the party of infanticide, the party of socialism.

Speaker 1 Do you feel that you've changed markedly or on big issues like Iraq? Or

Speaker 1 how do you look back on that?

Speaker 2 There's a lot in that question.

Speaker 2 So first of all,

Speaker 2 let me touch on anti-Semitism. There were a couple of Democratic members who had said some very clearly, had tweeted some very clearly anti-Semitic tweets.

Speaker 2 And the Democrats in Congress refused to put legislation on the floor to condemn, I believe it was Representative Omar.

Speaker 2 My view then and my view now is it doesn't matter which party is

Speaker 2 saying things that are anti-Semitic.

Speaker 2 All of us at all times have to stand against anti-Semitism.

Speaker 2 And so I think

Speaker 2 part of that

Speaker 2 I would not change. And I think that

Speaker 2 one of the real

Speaker 2 fallacies in this election

Speaker 2 is that somehow Donald Trump is going to be an ally, an ally of the Jewish people. I mean, this is Donald Trump dined at Mar-a-Lago with Nick Fuentes, a Holocaust denier.

Speaker 2 J.D. Vance appeared on Tucker Carlson's

Speaker 2 show

Speaker 2 within days of Tucker Carlson platforming neo-Nazi propaganda. And Donald Trump is ending his campaign, apparently, with Tucker Carlson.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 the anti-Semitism that the Republican Party is now

Speaker 2 excusing and accommodating

Speaker 2 is despicable. There are certainly

Speaker 2 things that I've said that I wouldn't have said or that I would have said in a different way. There's no question.

Speaker 2 I always think about when

Speaker 2 Speaker Pelosi appointed me to the select committee

Speaker 2 and one of her staff handed her a piece of paper that said, these are the top 10 worst things Liz Cheney has ever said about Nancy Pelosi.

Speaker 2 And I was really glad that they stopped at 10.

Speaker 1 I didn't know what it was out there.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 I don't remember, but I'm sure it it wasn't there.

Speaker 1 I don't.

Speaker 2 It had something to do with her spine not reaching her brain, I think it was.

Speaker 2 But look,

Speaker 2 I think that it goes to the previous point that, you know,

Speaker 2 it can be very easy in politics.

Speaker 2 especially I think in Congress, to just to sort of go to your corner and say, all right, any idea that comes from the other side, we're going to fight against and try to defeat.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I wish that I hadn't done that as many times as I did. Certainly, I have said some things that I, you know, would say differently, but I also know that

Speaker 2 there have been some pretty mean things said about me, and more importantly, some pretty mean things said about my dad. And I think that all of us

Speaker 2 ought to step back from this abyss of

Speaker 2 launching the worst kind of attack because

Speaker 2 then,

Speaker 2 number one, we can't move forward together, but number two, when we have the threat that we have now,

Speaker 2 you want to be able to convey to people this really this really matters. This is really much beyond politics.

Speaker 1 I'm guessing that a lot of people are thinking the following thing.

Speaker 1 This has been really interesting,

Speaker 1 but I'm terrified about the election to come. I've been anxious now for what time is it?

Speaker 1 Nine years.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I don't understand my own country, or I don't understand half of the country.

Speaker 1 Right now, we're having a conversation that hinges on a couple of hundred thousand people, whether it's raining in Pennsylvania on a given day. That's the razor's edge we're describing.

Speaker 1 And I think I'm getting this right, am I not, brothers and sisters?

Speaker 1 There is an incomprehension

Speaker 1 of the other half of the country. And surely it can't be that the other half of the country is bad or morally deficient or something.

Speaker 1 And sometimes I read the explanations for this.

Speaker 1 Brett Stevens, the other day in the New York Times, on the op-ed page, wrote, if, and it took him until last week to say that, or whatever it was, that he was finally going to pull the lever for Kamala Harris.

Speaker 1 Fine.

Speaker 1 What he said was: if the Republicans win, if Trump wins, who's at fault?

Speaker 1 The nasty liberals who are condescending and terrible to the rest of the country. If Trump wins, who's at fault?

Speaker 2 Trump's not going to win.

Speaker 1 Are you saying that for spiritual nourishment, or you really believe it? No, both.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I really do believe it. And

Speaker 2 there are a whole bunch of reasons that we are where we are.

Speaker 2 I tend to think one of the biggest ones is because

Speaker 2 elected Republicans failed to do their job. The voters, you know, I've had people say to me, if it's that big a deal, why isn't Mitch McConnell saying it's a bigger deal?

Speaker 2 Why didn't the Senate convict him? If more Republicans had done the right thing, the country would not be looking into the edge of the abyss we are today.

Speaker 1 Liz Cheney, thank you so much, and thank you.

Speaker 1 Liz Cheney represented Wyoming in Congress from 2016 to 2022 after serving for years in the State Department. She was vice chair of the House Select Committee on the January 6th attack.

Speaker 1 I'm David Remnick. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

Speaker 1 At NewYorker.com, you can find a timeline of the most consequential moments of this election, as well as the magazine's endorsement essay on Kamala Harris. Thanks for joining us.
See you next time.

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Speaker 2 It's one of Britain's most notorious crimes, the killing of a wealthy family at Whitehouse Farm. But I got a tip that that the story of this famous case might be all wrong.

Speaker 1 I know there's going to be a twist, willn't they? A massive twist. At every level of the criminal justice system, there's been a cover-up in this case.

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