‘The Studio’ Series Premiere: What Seth Rogen’s Hollywood Satire Gets Right (And Wrong)

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We have two TV pods. We're covering the studio first two episodes on Apple, which you guys like more than me.
And then I watched it again. I liked it a little more the second time, but you loved it.
I did. Not surprised.
You're kind of the audience for it, but why'd you love it? I am. I wonder if I am the direct and primary audience for this show.
It's a love letter to Sean Fennett. Well, it's a love letter to lovers of the movie, The Player, which is a movie that we covered on the Rewatchables, an Altman movie from the early 90s about people who work in Hollywood, particularly on the executive side and what they allow to happen and not happen on their watch, what the state of Hollywood was at that time in the 90s, and that's what this show is.
It's a contemporary spin on that, created and written and directed by Seth and Evan Goldberg, Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg. Long-time partners.
Long-time partners. And it's a zippy 40-minute satire of something that I talk about constantly on the podcast that I'm on here at The Ringer.
So I'm very interested in it. I think it's also whether or not it is connectable for other people, I think is a good topic of conversation for us.
Will people get into it?

Because Seth Rogen, I think,

is one of the most accessible stars that we have.

He's a very regular seeming guy.

But this subject matter is very intricate

and there are a lot of Easter eggs.

What did you think?

Did you like it?

I love that you want to call it an Easter egg.

Well, I'm doing it for you.

Thank you so much.

I loved it.

I had the same-

Loved it.

Well, I love these first two episodes, I'll say.

I have watched five episodes and there's like a few later that I didn't love as much as I love these first two. But I'm not quite Sean Fennessey.
I don't talk about this twice a week. But it is an industry that we've all been adjacent to for a while, and there are a lot of fun, sly- I will call them references rather than Easter eggs that I'm sure I don't get all of them, but I get plenty of them.
And that feels, that feels great when you're like, I know that Catherine Harris playing Amy Pascal or whatever the case may be. And I think watching Seth and Evan sort of exorcise some of their frustrations that they've had working through this industry via their comedy is really fun.
So I had a great time with them. Yeah, there's Legacy with Larry Sanders, the player.
We've seen people, The Late Shift, the movie, which is a great HBO TV movie. So we've seen people kind of parrot it and they always ramp up the Hollywood executives and make them deranged.
Buffoons. And for some reason, Hollywood loves this.
this they're like that was awesome when you fucking ridiculed us for who's brian cranston supposed to be and they do love this stuff i the big question for me is how many people are going to watch this because the bubble's fine all the people out here will watch it yeah i'm sure there'll be a huge chunk of new york but are you getting people in like winnipeg? No. And are you getting people in Kansas City? And are you getting people in Houston, Texas? The only reason you might, so later, I think it's okay to say in the trailer, we've seen that people like Zac Efron or Zoe Kravitz, like people who have broader appeal than like, you know, what exactly is Bryan Cranston parodying here, watching them play themselves might have some kind of draw for people.
But I don't think this is going to be a broadly popular show, but I think it's going to be a show that everyone who likes to talk about film and television wants to talk about. Do you feel like it's a show Seth and Evan kind of had to do with the point of their careers they're at, where it's 20 years were, it's 20 years removed from, um, 40 year old virgin, you know, and these guys are adults and Seth, he, he did, uh, what was that movie with Charlize? Long shot, long shot, which I really liked.
And for some reason it kind of came and went, didn't do as well as maybe it should have. I'm sure that their experience on that movie informed this because that's a movie that in 1987 would have been a hundred million dollar movie and in 2019 was a 44 million dollar movie and most people can't remember it yeah and i i said to you after i watched it i was like this feels like a show made by people who've been told no but the show is about the people telling them no and yeah trying to explore why they've been told no and what the psychology is of the people.
And these are people who are, you know, studio executives. In the last five years, I've gotten to know a lot of people that are somewhat similar to the people that are portrayed in the show.
And I think one of the things that I like about it is that I don't think that Seth and Evan hate these people. I think they actually have a lot of affection for them, but they know that they're basically like morally compromised, that they get into the business for the right reasons.
Then they go up the food chain and they have to tell the people that they worship, no. And what is that like? And how do you make a show about people like that? Because Matt Remick, who Seth plays, who is this sort of high-level development executive at a Paramount-esque movie studio or Sony-esque movie studio who gets the big job replacing a legendary studio head like Amy Pascal and then finally has the chance with green light power to say yes or no to the people that he deeply admires and wants to be close to, wants to be friends with, wants to ingratiate himself to, realizes that that's not how this business actually works, or at least has to accept that that's not how it works.
And that's an interesting thing. I mean, it's very rare that you write a show or a movie about people who are kind of like the enemy to creativity, I think, in their minds.
But I think what's so interesting about the Matt character, and I think this is what makes the show work for me, because there's a lot of cringe factor, especially in the second episode. There's a lot of secondhand embarrassment, pratfall, all that sort of stuff.
And that's usually something that I don't like to watch. But there's something about Matt because he is not just a craven.
He is, but he's not just a craven executive, but he's a guy who genuinely does like movies and genuinely does want to make cinema that lasts. And so I'm rooting for him and probably even as he keeps fucking up and fucking up and fucking up.
And so like, if he were just, I feel like the player is a bit more cynical on this front than this property is in terms of like, if the system weren't the way it was, then, then, then maybe we could get our real, I mean, I've been told that Marty Scorsese has been trying to make a Jonestown movie for a very long time. So like- Would watch it.
I would watch. Is that true? Yeah.
Yeah. To me, it's just, I guess my issue with it, which it wasn't as bad the second time, but this just all feels familiar to me.
Oh, Hollywood and all these people are buffoons. It's so hard to get stuff done.
And it just feels like generally racially, this movie or show keeps getting made in some form. The parts that I really liked were the Easter egg stuff and the who's that supposed to be? And oh, look at that.
Look at what they're doing here. And that just like the inside baseball stuff, which also made me wonder if this is why the show's not going to work.
Well, I think there's one thing that I would recommend about it that people who just really like watching cool stuff might enjoy, which is that from a formal technical perspective, this is one of the best looking and best made TV shows I've ever seen. There's like a big conscious choice to try to make the show with as many wonders as possible.
And so there is this kind of seamless roving camera that is moving and following Matt.

There's a kind of energy and a kinetic score, like a very jazzy beat, beat, beat, beat score

that works really well.

It keeps like these 28 or 44 minute episodes feeling very vibrant and alive.

Costuming is incredible.

Everyone is dressed exactly like these people dress.

It's kind of amazing. The Katherine Hahn character is definitely a marketing executive in hollywood funny because i asked people i was asking people who work like deeper in the industry than i do and the katherine hahn character was the one character that they were bumping on because they were like all the marketing execs that we know are like the the word i got was smurgy white guys and i was just sort of like okay i don't that the katherine hahn character is the one i'm like slightly bumping on i i i love her and i feel like i've been in meetings with her um i i think it's just it's a it's a great looking and great sounding and great like fast moving kind of a show um it kind of is trying to entertain you at all times i think the overarching sensibility that you're about, which is like Hollywood is a pit and it's all about money.
And none of these people are actually creative is a, is a tale as old as time.

It's a, it's a singing in the rain.

Yes, that's definitely true. So it's, it is kind of an update.
Um, and in that way it's inward looking, but it does create great art. I mean, the player is a great movie.
Singing in the Rain is a great movie. So I think it's fertile ground.
It's also ironic that a show that is this well made has been made for TV by a tech company and is not a movie. And I do wonder whether Seth or Evan originally wanted this to be a movie and were told no, which would be fascinating.
This kind of should be a movie, honestly. Well, having only watched part of the season, I'm excited to see where it goes.
But I think that like, I think to your point, they're dressed how people dress, but there's also this like out of time element to the way they're dressing because they're so aspirationally trying to do 70s Hollywood. And so like the brown suits and all that, all of that stuff is really interesting to me.
And I think that like, I think there's a virtue. I hear what you're saying that you've seen this before, but I think there's a virtue of doing it generationally and saying, what are those exact challenges now? Because when you make the player.
Seems like they're the same challenges. It's not, they weren't making Kool-Aid the movie in the player.
Well, that's true. You know what I mean? So this idea of like.
But they were still making crap. They're making crap.
But like, what is the kind of crap we have to deal with now? We have to deal with Kool-Aid as like, we are, the Minecraft movie is about to to come out you know what i mean or like um the specificity of a figure like amy pascal who uh you know was on some like unceremoniously kicked out of her job at a studio that seth and evans spent a lot of time with i i think i think the specificity of it is interesting to me yeah that i mean they do the cameos there's. There's a lot of the same playbooks.
Like Stoller comes in, he pitches something. Ron Howard's in the third episode playing, you know, and it's like, spin this version.
I guess Arliss was another show that was in this world. Sure.
There's been a bunch of things like this. I think one of the mistakes I made, I watched the first three all in a row, and there's like a specific like frenetic energy to this that when you said it would work better as a movie, that might be the answer.
But this is not a show that you would watch. Like I'm going to binge five episodes of the studio.
Like this thing's like a wired, the characters are over the top. I thought Barinholtz and Catherine Hahn are just fucking going for it.
Like unrewatchables, it would be like a layup for the Saul Rubinick award. Everyone is kind of going big on the show.
I would argue too big. And Catherine Han is one of my favorite actresses.
But she's like out of her mind in the show. Like to the point where I'm like, this is just not realistic.
And then Ike was the other one that really like he's really going for it. Rogan is just, he just feels like he's Seth Rogen.

It's funny because like Ike is going for it,

but he's also like,

he's the straighter man to Seth Rogen going for it.

And so I never,

I don't think I've ever seen Ike Barinholtz play

the guy who's trying to restrain someone.

He's usually the guy you're trying to restrain.

As he's doing cocaine.

Yeah.

And Cranston's another one.

He's just fucking going for it. So I feel like they told everybody, just bring the heat, man.
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a big, broad satire.
So it's kind of appropriate to have these outsized performances. Also, people in Hollywood are big.
And they're weird. And people who are in these jobs are real.
Old school Hollywood producers are performers. Like they're all about the pitch.
They're all about getting the energy in the room. I think it's interesting that a show like this comes along at a time when Hollywood is like a little bit more buttoned up, a little bit more tech, a little bit more corporate.
And it's this kind of like friction between people who came up at a time and in theory, the Matt Remick character came up at a time in the late 90s, early 2000s, when you had a little bit of more of that old school, razzmatazz Hollywood feeling. And now it's much more like, we're making our PowerPoint presentation slideshow to our corporate board members, and that tightening grip that it feels like is happening in Hollywood.
I like it as like, if this was an hour long show

that where you were like,

God, I hope that like everyone survives

at the end of this season,

I would not like it.

I think I like it more

as basically like a comedy.

And it seems like future episodes

are playing as like 30 minute comedies.

Yeah, yeah.

And that the like,

I wrote down Birdman score in my notes,

like that like drum score

is definitely like agitates you. And I could not sustain that on a long binge or a really long episode, I think.
And I think that like, to your point, yes, people are going broad. But the reason the second episode works so well for me is someone like Sarah Polly, who's actually doing something, I think like her gradual frustration is nuanced, I think, and really good.
And Greta Lee as well. Like those aren't like huge, big Pratt Folley performances in contrast to what Catherine Hahn is doing.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, for people in Hollywood, this is, if they do this show correctly, this is the kind of show you love to pop on. Get to be on, be two, three days, get to play some version of yourself.
Like I saw Pete Berg, like he's in the first scene. It's like, of course he was going to do this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, like, yeah.
And Paul Dano's like there for a second and them calling on a Charlize Theron who they worked with in Long Shot or Nick Stoller who they worked on with Neighbors or Zac Efron from Neighbors, like just calling their pals and collaborators

and saying, come play yourself.

It's very, this is the end of them.

Like, let's have a party

and talk about this wild thing that we do.

But also, I just think there are these little toss-off lines.

What was the place you cited

that people might not get this?

Winnipeg?

Is that what we should be aiming towards?

Well, for the record,

Seth and Evan are from Vancouver. So, you know, they do have a strong Canadian kiss and tension.
Okay. But I think that like in the Warner episode, the second episode with Sarah Pauly, when Matt is trying to say, oh, she wants my notes and Sal just like tosses off, yes, she's still a very good actress.
like i think that's just a really funny line um that might not play for people who don't even know who sarah paulie is right i thought the pilot uh my favorite part was scorsese who has this really weird kind of acting career where he's just popped in different things and like even he's been on snl and every time i see him i'm always like is this guy a good actor am i crazy yeah he's really good in the things. Even he's been on SNL.
Every time I see him, I'm always like, is this guy a good actor or am I crazy? He's really good in the pilot. He's also one of the great actors at playing himself.
Which is a weird skill. It's almost like the Lord Michaels quality.
You're playing the parody of what people think you are. I thought he's good when he's pitching the movie to Seth.
That Charlize scene is probably my favorite scene in that whole stretch when he's like wait a second what's going on here why are you looking furtive but just I thought he was really really good I thought Rogan was really good and I've always liked him in things like this I think he's become a really good actor in this part especially surrounded by all these big people his medium energy his like just sweaty energy is really really good in this. Yeah because he's I always like him and stuff I think he's always found a way found a hard way to break out of I'm Seth Rogen so like you think about I thought he was really good in the Sandler movie though I'm'm blanking, what was that? Funny People.
Funny People, yeah. That was the first time you watched Seth Rogen in something and you go, there's something more here.
He's not just like a goofy guy with a fun laugh. And then I thought he was really good in Longshot, even though that movie's got some flaws, but I really like that movie.
Yeah, I think Steve Jobs too was another good example. The Fablemans he's really good in.
I think he's become a very, very good actor. I think he's great, yeah.
And I love the Neighbors movies. Like, I think they're great movies.
But if we were like Seth Rogen's manager, I don't even know what things or movies I would tell him to do other than the stuff he's done. Because, you know, I don't know.
Could you see him in the Wayback in the Affleck role? Like, there's stuff he's, you just couldn't separate the Seth Rogen from the role. There always has to be a tinge of comic sensibility, I think, to the character.
A little frenetic and a little like his self-esteem is a little lower than it should be. And he's trying to impress people and he's funny and he's quick.
He's always at his best when something's falling apart. Yeah.
Which in this show, that's basically half the show. And he doesn't play assholes.
He plays like eager to please people. Yeah, you always like him.
You always like him and everything he does. So I think this is a good thing for him.
And I agree with how you said about some of the shooting. Like that one scene on the table when they're going around, I don't even know how they filmed that.
Yeah. It almost seems like they're using like a drone where it's like a table like we're at right now and the camera's just like flying around it's like really cool to watch yeah same with the scene when he gets the job to run continental and it's kind of following him down the hallway and he goes into this big art room where he meets cranston and then the camera's on cranston and it's spinning around and it's following him and there's just like um to me that's just like very involving in the story like i think some people watch something like that and feel it's distracting right because it's very showy in terms of what it's trying to accomplish but for me I really like perspective driven story and especially something where you're like you're starting to root for the character like you're saying you're starting to be like I hope this guy gets this job he seems like not such a bad guy and then slowly you learn like he has all these incredible weaknesses but following him as closely as we can until he fucking tells Marty Scorsese he's not making this movie is I think one of the reasons why that formal stuff is helpful and not hurting the show.
We've been talking a lot on The Watch and on the Prestige feed this week about the show Adolescence, which is on Netflix, which is four episodes, hour-long episodes that are oners, actual organic oners versus the virtual oners that they talked about in the second episode of this show. And the acrobatic nature of that filming is so incredible to watch, the behind the scenes of how they pulled that off.
And I also had that question of like, is this too distracting especially for the subject matter of that show? And I think occasionally it is. But here when it's just sort of like, we're putting on a show energy of this this backstage putting on a show.
And I think occasionally it is. But here, when it's just sort of like, we're putting on a show energy of this, this backstage putting on a show energy of this show, I think all of those fun camera techniques really work.
And the way that they lampshaded it and talking about 1917 in the second episode, I thought was really brilliant. free returns and in-store pickup make it easier than ever shop now in stores and at nordstrom.com this season a new hot deal has arrived at metro 25 a line for four lines with all the data you need and four free samsung galaxy a15 5g phones getting metro's best deals is easy no id required no activation fees get a new number or keep your own.
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What did you think of the Catherine O'Hara character and performance?

It's just so transparently a person that we know about.

That exists.

I think.

But they even weave in, she's slept with people on the path.

There's some stuff there.

I'm like, ooh.

Yeah, the Ray Liotta stuff.

Yeah. How close to the fire is this going?

On the one hand, yes.

But on the other hand, she also seems so much more competent than them. it's i think it's like a she's not she she like has these moments where she's like maddie you know she has these like shrill moments but at the end of the day she's just so much more in control of what she's doing and like it talks about how she would have held the line against a kool-aid movie and all these other things so i think they're giving're giving their- She's negotiating with them and she's crying, but ultimately she gets what she wants and all of a sudden she's fine.
So yeah, like the wig is Amy Pascal. I sent you a link of her house in the New York Times.
The house is Amy Pascal's house. Like all of this is very much her, but like- But how many people are getting that? So you're talking like, this is super stealth.
So on the inverse, for me,

well, I don't think you need to understand that to enjoy it.

I think you can just say that there was a woman

who was in charge of this studio

who has a kind of manic energy but is brilliant.

That was kind of what Amy Pascal was, right?

She was really hard-charging, really straight-talking,

and she got pushed out after the Sony hack.

Which we should mention Seth Rogen's involved in the Sony hack. That part's a little weird too.
And I think like wending some of that stuff in here is potentially very interesting. We'll see if it happens.
The stuff that I didn't like is the stuff that the show needs to make it more legible to regular folks. At the very beginning of the episode, we see Seth Rogen after he leaves the shoot hop on the cart with Chase Suey Wonders and he starts like explaining things about the studio to this person who is his assistant, who has clearly been his assistant for a little while.
They wouldn't talk that way. It's a TV show.
We kind of have to over-explain what Continental is, what Patty did, and what her legacy was, how long I've been waiting for my shot to do this. There's something kind of unnatural in the TV of it, Whereas I felt like in the player, they don't bend over backwards to explain how the world works.
They're just like, you're inside of it because the murder mystery was as much a part of the story. We've always talked about this with the content we do.
Like, let the audience catch up to you, not vice versa. Don't dumb down the stuff you're doing.
I agree. The sort of like, they built this as a temple beat, which is hit a couple different times in the first episode, is some of the stuff that doesn't work for me.
But that's the thing. You're doing that, but then you're also doing this stealth, stealth, stealth Amy Pascal character.
Hardcore inside baseball. But I don't think you need to know that that's Amy Pascal.
Like, there's layers to it. You can enjoy it on a different layer.
You can think about what Amy Pascal did after she got kicked out of Sony, which is great stuff. Little women, challengers.
She's like the most successful producer in Hollywood. She may be the next Bond producer.
Yeah, she might be the next Bond producer. So they're not kicking someone necessarily when they're down.
They're just sort of like, here's a very distinctive woman that we came into contact with in our work at Sony. And we're going to capture this odd blend of competence and eccentricity.
And Catherine O'Hara, who's a master of what she does, is giving us, you know, we've been talking about her and the Christopher Guest films, like giving us one of those classic Catherine O'Hara roles. What did she say? What was her name in that? Cookie? Yeah.
Oh yeah. You've grown up.
I guess here's the thing. I guess it's just my personal preference for how this stuff is done.
I'm always going to be partial to the way the player that handled it. Like the over the top version of it.
I'm always going to feel like it's a little bit of a bit. And I think there's Catherine Han character, Baron Holtz, Cranston, even Catherine hair in that scene, which I thought she did a good job, but it's all like the ramped up crazy version of it.
Every character in this version, in this, at least the first couple episodes we watched, including Ron Howard in the third episode. Is big.
Is big and on tilt. And I think for 10 episodes, I just don't know if that was the right decision, but we'll find out when we keep going.
I think part of it too is like asking these people to, you know, what Catherine Harris is doing with Amy Pascal is one thing, but asking Olivia Wilde, who has like a big reputational black cloud hanging over her after Don't Worry Darling to come in. I'm not going to like split, but she's in the show playing herself as a director in a later episode.
And so she's decided to willingly engage with, you know, this big PR thing that happened in her career. And in order to do so, to do it huge, I think is something that's more comfortable for them than to do the smaller version of that.
Yeah, but I just think it's the easier way to do it. And I think there was another level of this show that I think if...
I personally think if it had been a little more subtle, but I also don't know why they did that. It's the whole point of the show is it's frenetic.
Well, I think there's one other logical reason why they made this choice. In 1992, when The Player was being made and came out, one, you've got a guy who's much older making that movie.
Altman's been through 40 years of Hollywood history by that point. Two, Hollywood is on top.
In 1992, Hollywood is the absolute center of American culture, whatever is being made there. And so what it can be is really more this sort of like behind the scenes, surreptitious vision of like the way that things really work and this like quiet but aggressive competition happening at the executive level.
Like that's the thing that is undergirding the murder mystery in that movie. Right now, if you're an executive or a writer or any number of roles in Hollywood, you're like, fuck, I think it's over.
Like it's ending. There's this like panic and anxiety among all people who work in this industry.
It's very real. And so I think it's pitched up in this tenor because people are nervous and they're like kind of afraid that they made a mistake getting into this line of work.
And if you're Matt Remick and this is your big shot and you screw up, there may not be another job for you. You may have to go figure something else out to do.
So I think that's why they've created this kind of like shaky hands version of the broad satire, which I'm enjoying, but I think will rub people the wrong way. Well, the other piece of that, they're also leaving stuff on, meat on the bone with just where Hollywood is now, because Hollywood is so tech driven with some of the, even some of the people, like think about the people, there was that story about Apple this week about them losing a billion dollars and the people ultimately making the decision are two people that aren't content people in that way at all you know so i almost wonder like this is not an apple series yeah yeah but the version and marty scorsese is like i'll take this i'll take this movie to apple their version of hollywood in this show i think is skewed toward this version of hollywood we all grew up with in the 90s and 2000s.
That's why I think there's that like- I think Hollywood's a little different now. I think that's why there's that like slightly out of step of time element to it.
Everything is sort of like 70s, golden hour, Laurel Canyon sort of visually. And mid-century modern architecture.
Yeah, exactly. And then I think that then you just inject Kool-Aid into that mix.
Because you've got Cranston doing Bob Evans, but like Bob Evans telling you to make a Kool-Aid movie? But can you do this if you're making the show for Apple? It's a contradiction. I don't know.
Can you make a show about the horrors of a white-walled workplace if you're're at apple that's what severance is but here's the thing it's true this is a big topic on sean's pod the last few years like what is the biggest issue with hollywood right now they're what they're saying in this show tell me i'd love to i need to know the biggest issue with hollywood they're saying right now is like ip driven sellout moves for whatever yeah i would say that's one issue. But another big issue is what the streamers have done to movies over the last five years, which this show isn't going to touch.
They won't touch that. We're skewering Hollywood, but also this is over here because we're making it for Apple.
I do wonder. I think that that, I mean maybe this is self-satisfying, but I agree with everything that you just said.
And if they do touch it, then I'll be impressed. I think they're basically Paramount or Sony is what this studio is.
It feels like Sony to me. It has the historical thing that Paramount has.
For the huge decision makers, for the most part. But they don't have their own streaming services.
That's the thing. If this was set in the world of Warner Brothers, you'd be like, oh there's max and max max intersects yeah but paramount doesn't really make like original movies for their platform like it's a much smaller proposition to me okay and they're also like their this is way inside baseball but like their theatrical distribution they used to be a major player and now they put out seven movies a year and like two of them are gonna hit and then the other five are like god i don't know that's the thing is like is this a more interesting show if the studio is really set at Netflix or Amazon or Apple because yeah they won't say the word Netflix no they would never do it but that's why when you said would this have been better as a movie I think the 2025 version of this show is actually a movie set at Amazon or Netflix or where they're making those decisions.
I'll be curious. I've only seen five episodes.
There is a lot of like, the movies that they are making outside of the conceptual Kool-Aid seem like mid-level nostalgic movies that we don't really see made anymore. Yeah, like even the guys watching Goodfellas at the end of and the thing, that's a movie that came out 32 years ago.
But that's supposed to show that they actually love good movies. I mean, I'm the same age as Seth Rogen.
We are the exact same age. His reference points and his aspirations toward a version of Hollywood that no longer exists, I don't know him, but I think we share that.
I think I think that's part of the reason why I'm connecting with it. And what do I do when I go home but cozy up or show up at the Coolidge Theater in Boston and watch a movie like Goodfellas? So I think generationally, it's actually right.
It's like a bunch of people that are now in their 40s waited all this time. What? I don't know if this is apocryphal, but Wikipedia, deeply unreliable, has Ted Sarandos as himself listed in the season-long cast list.
Maybe they will. So if they hit the streamer side, then this becomes fascinating on a whole other level.
Because right now, this is the easier way to do it. Where you're doing it, it's like a studio, and we're just shipping.
We got it. Oh, and's IP and let's see.
I bought Kool-Aid and the Kool-Aid thing is just ridiculous enough that it's actually like really funny and it's like, it's just plausible enough that this would happen, but it's completely ridiculous. I think what works about that is that the Nick Stoller pitch is like so perfectly what you imagine a pitch like that would be.
And that sequence works so well.

It's just really dumb enough.

It's just smart enough to be dumb.

I thought that was really well written.

And then we get green involved and yellow.

And then Steven Cranston's like,

diversity.

And it's like,

I got your brother.

All that stuff is very, very funny to me.

Are we sure Matt,

so Matt gets his job out of nowhere.

Well, he's like in line for it. Well, he's in line for it, but he doesn't realize it's his boss.
And then they're like, oh, this is happening. Boom.
I feel like he has like one project in his back pocket. He's going to try to move on right away that his boss never let him make.
And now it's like, this is the time to do it. It goes really quick to like all of a sudden he's making Kool-Aid and taking shit on Matt Bellany's podcast, The Town.
Good podcast, by the way. I've heard good things.
But I feel like there's a moment when you finally get the car keys like that, you have a couple of weeks there where you're like, all right, my director that I'm close with, I'm going to do a deal with them. Like you start taking care of your favorites and he never does that.
He's just off making Kool-Aid. Well, the premise seemingly in this world is that Kool-Aid is a test of like, if he is suited for the job.
But he has the job. Right, but Griffin Mill, this character that Cranston is playing is like, I've got this Kool-Aid IP.
I want to see what you can do with it. And the implication is sort of like, if you fuck this up,

it's Ike Barinholse's turn.

You know what it is?

It's like, it's both.

Like we're watching a real life version

of this transpire right now at Warner Brothers.

Old administration goes out.

Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi come in to run the studio.

David Zaslav hires them.

Here's two things that happened when they got hired.

One, Mike DeLuca,

who produced in Greenlit Boogie Nights,

signs up for a new Paul Thomas Anderson movie. A very expensive Paul Thomas Anderson movie.
Takes care of his guy. Somebody he's worked with for 30 years.
So it's what you're talking about. Also, a movie that is opening this weekend, The Alto Nights, is reportedly a movie that David Zaslav wanted to be made.
Tough one. For his friends.
For Barry Levinson, for Nick Pelleggi. This is how Hollywood works.
Yes. It felt, it could have happened in 92, it could have happened in 52.
It still happens in 2025. So maybe there is a world where later in this season we see Matt get to take care of one of his guys.
Yeah. I'll be curious because if he's only making Kool-Aid for the whole series, that will seem a little too broad maybe for how things actually work.
He's trying to get a bunch of shit done because he doesn't know if the carpet is going to get pulled out of him. Right.
He's going to grab the best script he's ever had in his back pocket. He's taking care of his Paul Thomas Anderson.
He's doing it all. Time is passing in large chunks between episodes because when we get to episode two, Catherine Harris' character, Patty, says she's been on this film with Sarah Pauly for a while.
Yes. But Sal is like, I've been taking care of her for four years, which I also liked.
I'm not sure that Sal's communicating guy who has been shepherding Sarah Pauly, Greta Lee movie for four years. But, you know, that's not that important.
But, like, that Patty's like, I've been here for a while. So it's been, like, a minute since episode one as we two.
So Kool-Aid movie might already be in the can sort of thing. Oh, interesting.
You know what I mean? And then the only other one I saw was the third one, and that's also not really tied to the Kool-Aid movie at all. A different movie, yeah.
It's hard to know how much time is passing. I have a really important question for Sean, specifically.
Martin Scorsese's Kool-Aid about the Johnstone Jonestown Jonestown Jonestown Massacre I would watch in a heartbeat 7.30 hopefully they show it to me a month in advance and I can build an entire month of programming around it. Yes, as we learn in the show, one of our greatest living actors.
What are the needle drops that you're waiting for in Kool-Aid? Rolling Stones are left. Yeah, yeah.
Rolling Stones sucks. Can't you hear me knocking? What's playing on the tarmac as like? Monkey Man? Yeah.
I'm obsessed with Jonestown.

That's like a, you know,

it's a Bay Area-based,

you know,

absolutely iconic story.

One of the reasons

that hasn't really been made

in a movie yet,

tough ending.

Yeah.

Not, not...

Well, you know,

Scorsese,

a bummer ending

is in his arsenal.

Not a lot of sunshine

and rainbows

at the end of his movies.

It's another part of this show

that I'm glad

I watched it again.

Maybe I was in the,

but it is funny,

like Kool-Aid by Martin Scorsese.

It's ridiculous,

but it's not so ridiculous

that it couldn't happen.

I think it's such a clever

turn of the script

to have Scorsese come in

with this Jonestown project,

which apparently,

like what comes first?

Them knowing that Martin Scorsese

in the real world wants to make a Jonestown project? Or what if we had Kool-Aid as our IP? You know, like, all that sort of stuff is, I think, brilliant inside of this. What was your Kool-Aid IP idea? Oh, if I could bring any brand to the table? No, if it's just they're asking you for a Kool-Aid pitch.
Do you have one? Did you get excited about the thought of Kool-Aid as a movie? We've never really had a great horror movie with a tie-in like that. Like if you drink Kool-Aid, like there's a really low budget movie called The Stuff that's about this yogurt that like takes over the world.
What if like Kool-Aid transformed, like drinking Kool-Aid transformed you into something? I don't want to see a movie with a Kool-Aid, man. That's fucking weird.
But they bought the IP rights, which means they can do anything they want or they're trying to do right by kool-aid i was also when you have the ip for something like kool-aid i'm not going to tell you anything you don't already know you are want you want when you make barbie you want to make a movie that is interesting but also will sell more barbies but i'm sure i'm sure wouldn't be like here's your barbie ip could you make like a massacre movie about barbie like probably wouldn't have fun'm saying. You want to sell Barbies, you want to sell Kool-Aid.
So it can't be poisonous Kool-Aid. So Kool-Aid is owned by Kraft.
Which owns everything. Which owns many food products.
So I think part of the genius of Stoller's pitch is like, you can build out the world of Kraft products. Velveeta, also owned by Kraft, that gets a mention.
You know, there is a kind of synergistic quality to the way you'd make that movie. That is very, I totally agree with you.
I think it's really clever. The KCU.
They set up that first episode of the KCU. I mean, yeah, because I'm supposed to be rooting for Matt, right? He's the hero.
But Matt also has no ideas. You don't have to root for Matt.
I'm just saying like a character. But I'm saying technically on the show, it's Seth Rogen is playing our lead, Matt, and I think I'm supposed to be rooting for him.
I will say. Are you rooting for Tony Soprano? Are you rooting for Walter from Breaking Bad? We can't talk about Tony Soprano because Joanna's number six.
Tony Soprano is the lead character in a series called The Sopranos. I don't think that Matt Remick is an anti-hero.
I don't think he's a golden era of a TV anti-hero. The first thing we see from him is he bursts onto the set of Peter Berg's new movie starring Paul Dano.
And he sweatily introduces himself to Paul Dano and tells him he loves his directing. And Paul Dano could not give a fuck.
But like, that's endearing. It is, but it's also like this guy, first of all, I say this with all self-awareness.
This guy is a loser. Oh yeah.
He is not cool. No, I'm not saying he's cool, but that's not an anti-hero.
Like Tony Soprano is cool. You know, Walter White is cool.
He's a big dad from New Jersey. He's cool.
Like people have. Joanna, you're not allowed to talk about Soprano.
I'm allowed to talk about Anti-Heroes of the Golden Age.

Don Draper is cool.

Don Draper is cool.

And Matt is such a loser that, yeah, I do want to root for him.

But there's also the character of Quinn, his assistant, who he promotes.

And what's interesting on this show is that a friend of mine pointed this out to me.

Frida Perez has an EP credit on this show.

And we're like, who is she?

She's former Seth Rogen assistant. Yeah.
That has an EP credit on this show. We're like, who is she? She's former Seth Rogen assistant.
That he promoted to EP on this show. I'm sure she's a big inspiration for Quinn.
I think that's cool. What do you think that Paul Dano Peter Berg movie was? You think it was like, were they making it for Amazon Prime? I have to assume that the guy who shot Paul Dano in that scene is Mark Wahlberg.
Just given Berg's directorial history. Is it like a One Last Job Gone Wrong? Or is it like a horror movie? I couldn't get a feel for the genre for that.
I love a Peter Berg horror movie. How do you feel about Patty dropping a line from that movie at the end of the episode and Matt not clocking it at all.
Yeah, it's a good question.

Does Matt really, is he really in the work? Is he really well suited

to this or not?

That's part of

why I'm really interested to see where

the rest of it goes because

I can't tell if Matt is somebody

that ultimately we're going to be like,

what a fucking idiot that guy was.

It seems like he loves movies.

Maybe he was over

promoted too high. Doesn't seem like

Thank you. that ultimately we're going to be like, what a fucking idiot that guy was.
Or if there's like, it seems like he loves movies. Yeah.
Right? Maybe he was over promoted too high. Doesn't seem like he really has any ideas yet.
He stumbled into every piece of, every episode we've seen so far. So what are we- Does he need a big win? What are we trying to say about Matt? What's, what are, what are supposed to be my feelings about Matt? Yeah, what are they trying to say about people in this job? I would guess at the end of the day that they don't really like people like this because they don't make anything.
Do you see any Tom Rothman in the mix here? I don't know. Elaborate for the people in Winnipeg.
Who's the head of Sony. Tom Rothman's the head of Sony.
Long time studio chief. Ran Fox for many years.
One of the old school studio chiefs. Very values theatrical over other things.
Likes the big easy win. It's something that he is known for pushing forward.
I don't know if there's quite a character. Because the, the Brian Cranston character who was also called Griffin mill,

which is the Tim Robbins is character's name in the player.

Um,

is not,

and the idea of it being the same Griffin mill is amusing.

Um, I wonder if they went to Tim Robbins for this.

Cranston's really big.

Like he's wearing jewelry and necklaces and he's wide lapels.

Yeah.

He's very, very over the top. Um, I didn't like the Griffin Mill thing.
Okay. Get Tim Robbins if you're doing that.
Yeah. Stay off my sacred cow that is the player.
Altman's not alive anymore, right? He's not alive now. I wonder if, because Griffin Mill is a murderer, maybe they felt like this was just another guy named Griffin Mill.
Spoilers for the player. Sorry.
No, I'm just kidding. That's the first 20 minutes.
If you haven't seen the player, go check out the player. I have seen the player.
Not you, of course. The player and Larry Sanders were both a lot more subtle with some of the stuff.
They were a lot. There was a lot of people feeling each other out.
and it was their version of Hollywood. This is just big and bombastic.
Did you ever watch the Ricky Gervais show extras? I did. I wasn't a huge fan.
Yeah. I wasn't like a huge fan of it on a week to week but certain people showing up to play themselves is incredible.
David Bowie in that series. Yeah.
Great Kate Winslet talking about what you need to do to win an Oscar and then she did exactly that to win her Oscar. I think it's really hard to pull off the celebrity cameos because spoiler alert, like episode 3 with Ron Howard, I didn't think it was I didn't think he was good.
That's funny, you didn't love it either. I really liked episode 3.
I just felt like, oh, watch this, Ron Howard we're going to flip it. Everyone says he's the nicest guy.
It's like, alright, I see this coming down the highway. really more into the anthony mackie who's not really having the best 2025 but i really i enjoyed what he was up to well people will get to that when they get to that um i think that whether or not matt is a likable hero is ultimately immaterial because all of these kinds of movies are about whether or not this is a good place to be creative or not.
Yeah. And I think we're going to find out.
Don't we already know the answer after all these attempts? We do. With TV shows and movies.
Ultimately, they all land in the same place. Like, yeah, creativity loses and dumbass people win.
Was Larry Sanders likable? I find Matt likable. And I think it's because people are constantly making fun of him and putting him down that he's just got this underdog spirit to him and he's not an asshole like he he makes asshole moves for his job but I but feels tremendously guilty about it like I do not fundamentally think he's a soulless character and I think that's a hard hard thing to thing to pull off.
And Rogan, that's something he really excels at.

Yeah.

I thought Larry Sanders

was more realistic.

Yeah, it is.

I think the characters on that show,

I mean,

Hank's one of the great characters

of all time,

the sidekick.

But this,

we'll see with this one.

I wouldn't say that's the most subtle

character of all time, Hank.

Hank?

Yeah.

No, but it's just that whole concept

of the sidekick

who just secretly hates himself and has a huge ego when he doesn't. There's some really good stuff in there.
RD2 is not... These are not subtle characters.
I think that world is a little dingier, a little smaller, and it felt very like really almost literally behind the curtain. Whereas this is like boardroom culture going on set of big productions.
It's a slightly more elevated... It's a little more less Grossman, Tropic Thunder.
It is. It is.
That's a good comparison. When was the last thing that really tried to dive into this world? I was trying to think about this.
Because there's been pieces of it and there's always been like the Tropic Thunder moments. Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent which is not about you know

the boardroom

but is

an incredible

actor playing themselves

and

artistic selling out

and all of that

yeah

it was a

tremendously great movie

what about that Lisa Kujo show

The Comeback

I never watched that show

yeah

that's definitely in the mix

a lot of this stuff right

yeah

I think

Argo

is in this vein

as well

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood

gets a shout

more historical

but sure

yeah

it's a good movie Thank you. Yeah, I think Argo is in this vein as well.

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

More historical, but sure.

It's a good movie.

It's a great movie.

Hail Caesar, also historical.

Yeah.

No, there's one.

Oh, The Disaster Artist.

I feel like it's an interesting example. It's kind of a forgotten movie because of James Franco being deleted from our culture.

But speaking of Seth Rogen.

Have we seen James in season one? I don't think so. Maybe you'll get a Dave if you're lucky.
We're definitely getting Dave. For your consideration, that was the other Christopher Guest movie, right? Yeah.
Not as successful. Can we, before we go, can we talk about Krumholtz? One of my favorites of all time.
Oh, he's super funny. I think he's really funny in this.

Go ahead.

What do you want to say? David Krumholtz shows up to play this agent and is just like going a mile a minute. And I feel like we're in a little Krumholtz-sense after Oppenheimer, etc.
And I just have always loved him. I have too.
And I want nothing but the best for him. Can I give you my biggest gripe of the whole pilot? Please.
you can't bring Charlize out of the bullpen

and play her music

and get the crowd fired up for her to get the ninth inning save and then she's got one line and she's out. Do you think it's the last you see of her this season? It better not be, is my point.
If you can play the Charlize card for literally a cameo. But isn't it literally Mariano Rivera coming out of the bullpen?

No, I need more.

Bases loaded,

6-2 game.

I needed her like for,

like this is like,

like she's buddies

with these people.

You got to like

play that card hard.

I think what's interesting

and I'll be curious to see

how much we're getting

like a season long arc,

like how much they're able

to shuffle these episodes

however they want

if there isn't a ton

of continuity between,

like if we aren't checking

back in on the Kool-Aid movie.

In that case,

you can be like,

okay,

we're going to shuffle these episodes however they want if there isn't a ton of continuity between like if we aren't checking back in on the kool-aid movie in that case you can be like okay we're kind of we're going to come out hot with scorsese and charlie's their own and blah blah and then episode two we've got gretely and sarah polly which is just like not for houston texas or winnipeg you know what i mean and sort of like calibrate the level of, because then you've got Ron Howard and then you've got Zac Efron and you've got Olivia Wilde. Like what level of, you know, mega favor are we pulling in to do this? I just wish, I didn't love the Greta Lee episode, but I wish that second movie had been, I just think they should have been a parody of like Fast and Furious or one of those type of franchise, like a franchise like a franchise movie that's in its 11th installation and the stars hate each other.
Maybe they'll go their way down the road. In the future in this series there is maybe not quite Fast and Furious but an event movie, an IP movie that they spend a little more time on.
I want to start getting into that world where it's like oh they're doing Fast and Furious. That would be just a more realistic portrayal than a mid-budget Sarah Polly movie set in the 50s, a lesbian drama.
That's what it's supposed to be. That's the thing.
That movie is just not being made anymore with any money. Not in a big studio.
Yeah, it's at A24. Yeah.
So I suppose Sarah Polly's like, I won my Oscar. Let me do this, you know? On a movie that I believe was greenlit by Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi before they left MGM, right? That was what Women Talking was.
So, you know, every once in a while, one slides in. Have you seen every episode? No, I've only seen...
But it's funny the way that you described it at the beginning of our conversation because I have a very vivid memory of this. It was when the fires hit in Los Angeles, we left town and I was like, you know, bored and concerned like everybody else in the city of Los Angeles and trying to find anything to distract myself.
And I powered through five episodes in one night which as you guys know as a tv watcher that's like doing cocaine that's not something i do yeah i can't watch more than two consecutive episodes of tv um because i find it kind of innervating and this was the opposite i think because it's not it's not like oh they're really stringing out what's gonna happen next it's not one of those shows it's contained yeah the drama of each episode is what entertains you it's not like, oh, they're really stringing out what's going to happen next. It's not one of those shows.
It's contained. The drama of each episode is what entertains you.
It's not like, oh my God, I hope they get this project off the ground. We'll have to tune in next week.
So I think I was kind of relieved to not have a show like that. And weirdly, that propelled me forward with it rather than holding me back from it.
But I realize I'm not a normal TV watcher. You hate continuity.
Well, I don't know if that's the word, but I don't like long arcs. I don't like long arcs.
Also, is Matt like, is he dating? What's going on, Matt? I wondered that too. Is he like, I needed like a Raya reference.
This is going to be so great for my Raya. Like there's some subtle stuff that I just didn't, like is he fucking his assistant? Like what's going on with him? The 1995 version of this would have featured that.
That's harder to get away with now in storytelling and in the business. Is there a Tinder moment with him? What's happening with Matt? He should be on Raya.
Is he a Heidi Fleiss 2025, whoever Heidi Fleiss is now client? Sure. Kind of like an Enora situation? Yeah, I don't know.
I wonder if they'll get to that. I wonder.
I think him and Sal cozying up at the end of a long day together to watch Goodfellas Seth loves a bromance it's a bromance that's his speed I just don't feel like 40 year olds are hanging out at one in the morning watching Goodfellas who work together CR and I will call you next time it happens. When was that time you watched a movie

with CR at 1230 at night

just the two of you?

I mean, for me,

I'm like,

who are these people?

I have a small child

at home.

No one does this.

So if you have kids,

and that's the thing,

these are childless people also,

and so they can afford

to watch Goodfellas

at one o'clock in the morning.

I can't.

What about the LA,

like the restaurants

they're going in and out of?

So that Burbank restaurant,

that's a really good movie location.

Oh, yeah.

It's called, I think, the Smokehouse.

It's almost like they made that.

First of all, it's a big studio steakhouse restaurant, but it's also like a great, it's like Mousseau and Frank's.

It's like one of those great movie locations.

Mousseau and Frank's is in a later episode.

I'm sure, is Dan Tannis?

I'm sure Dan Tannis is coming at some point.

Smokehouse is not the one across from Warner Brothers? I think it right in that mix but it's a pretty famous one will you keep watching the show I think I will I'm probably gonna stick to one at a time because I think it's a lot yeah it's like you know it's like a double espresso you don't wanna have I wouldn't have two when are we we going to get the live Bill tries cocaine for the first time pod? And what should be the movie? I don't know. While talking about Blow? Joanna finishes The Sopranos for the first time and then I just do Blow.
And you do Blow to celebrate? Just one line. I'm just cutting it up.
One more inducement to watch The Sopranos. That's the best one yet.
All right. The studio, you can find it on Apple.
Great TV stretch right now. Best we've had in a long time.
Absolutely. Well after the writer's trek is over and people have a little more money to spend.
What do you have your eye on? Like, what are you like when's Bill Simmons coming back to TV podcasting? Well, we farmed out The Last of Us to House of R and to Midnight Boys. I think the next Prestige one, and I don't know if I'm going to be involved, but it's that You're Friends and Neighbors.
Oh, yeah. John Hanson's show.
There's some good buzz on that one. Yeah.
But you never know with Prestige TV. It surprises.
Like, who knew Adolescence was coming? And that turned out to be the best show of the year so far. Netflix, to their credit.
I sent out the bat signal for Rob and Joe. We got to fucking have this now.
What's up with Joe's usage rate? Are you thinking about maybe some saving her for the playoffs stuff? Because this is really an all-time high. I don't know how she's alive right now.
When Joe's in LA, everyone wins. Okay.
It's great. And she's like a starting pitcher that can just go out every couple of days.
240 innings this year. Just throw innings.
No load management for you. You are just, yeah, starting five days a week.
Do we have... A mega blush.
Wow. Do we have...
What do we have for like Ringiverse era stuff coming? Not only Last of Us, but Andor, which rules. Do you watch Andor? No, but it's the one if I watch one, that's the one.
I think you would. Andor looks good.
I do think you would like that one. They're good things.
Yeah. And then there's a new Game of Thrones show, Night of the Seven Kingdoms.
When's that come out? Is there a date on that? Yeah, I think it's June. I think that's right.
Whoa. That's soon.
That's going to be after the NFL draft. It's like, Mal, what are you up to? I'm doing my rewatch of all Game of Thrones episodes and House of Dragons and rereading 19 books to get ready for this new show.
The best. That might not tie into any of it at all.
The best. Maniac.
Sean, great to see you. Joanna, great to see you as always wonderful thanks to the crew

Prestige TV

check it out on

ringer-tv

on YouTube

or you can watch

this video pod

thank you

thanks