'The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5 Deep Dive and Theories: Sam Rockwell and the Best TV Monologues Ever

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Speaker 3 This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee.

Speaker 3 So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors: Thai iced coffee and pina colada flavored creamers.

Speaker 2 They're available for a short time only.

Speaker 3 So, for the love of coffee, go try them now.

Speaker 3 Hello, welcome back to the Press Siege TV podcast feed. I'm Joetta Robinson.

Speaker 2 I'm Rob Mahoney.

Speaker 3 We're here to talk to you about White Lotus, Season 3, Episode 5, full moon party, right? Is that right?

Speaker 2 That's accurate. Okay.
You know, many things happened at said full moon party and around it. Yeah.
There's a lot to get into.

Speaker 3 There's a lot to get into.

Speaker 3 I just want to let you know that there's a lot to get into on television these days. And so I just want to let folks know a seamless transition, right, Rob?

Speaker 2 I just want to let people know.

Speaker 2 Into the depths of our personal despair, because that is the natural transition point.

Speaker 3 I want to let people know what's going on in the Prestige feed right now. Obviously, as we've mentioned many weeks in a row now, we're double dipping on White Lotus.

Speaker 3 So there's Sunday night, Bill, Mal, and Joanna. You can't skip past this.

Speaker 3 There's new information on here.

Speaker 3 Sunday, Bill, Mal, and Joanna. Instant reaction to White Lotus.

Speaker 3 Later in the week, Rob, Joanna, this podcast, the deep dive into White Lotus.

Speaker 2 Yes, they know about that one. They're currently listening to it.
You're currently listening to it.

Speaker 3 The one you currently listen to.

Speaker 3 Adolescents, emergency pod drop.

Speaker 3 A four-episode Netflix series, Adolescent dropped over the weekend. And Rob and I dropped an episode about that yesterday.
If you're listening to this on Wednesday, we dropped it on Tuesday.

Speaker 3 It's in the feed. You can listen to that.

Speaker 3 Also, this week, Rob, today, if you're listening to this Wednesday morning fresh as it drops into your feed, as you should, in a few hours, in a few scant hours, Rob and I will be doing a live Q ⁇ A, sort of like lunchtime severance, pre-finale, extravaganza, um where you can find us on ringer tv on spot on nope let me do that again you can find us on ringer tv on youtube and that is where we will be taking your questions and

Speaker 3 uh you know just talking about what we think is gonna come in the finale for severance and how we think the season is going and all of that rob anything you want to say about the live mailbag q a

Speaker 2 thing? I would say, I would say just that there's still time to get your questions and theories into us in advance of that Q ⁇ A. Of course, you can stop by, drop them in the chat.

Speaker 2 You can also email us at prestige TV at spotify.com or for Severance specifically, pineapplebobbing at gmail.com. And of course, as we know, for White Lotus specifically, monkeyshootout at gmail.com.

Speaker 2 Is that enough cross-traffic email? Like, am I creating a jam here, Joe?

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, we, we've not created a special email for adolescents. We've spared the people that, so that's a lot off pod.

Speaker 2 I simply will not, given the subject matter of that show. Correct.

Speaker 3 And also, so then our severance finale coverage,

Speaker 3 the Robin Joanna Severance finale pod is dropping Thursday night.

Speaker 3 If all goes according to plan,

Speaker 3 some of us, including me, will be covering the studio in this feed.

Speaker 3 And then we'll have, you know, some severance wrap-up next week as well. So

Speaker 3 I don't know if that was as coherent as it might have been, but there's a lot going on. And I don't know.
Here's what I think you should do.

Speaker 3 Subscribe to the pod and just click on every single episode and listen to all of them.

Speaker 2 Why not do that, right?

Speaker 3 that's a great idea this is not the week for coherence joe this is the week to take some party drugs to get out there under the full moon and to live our best life and just party out okay rob i have already had a chance to tell people what i think about this episode with bill and all on sunday what did you rob mahoney think of episode five of white lotus I think it has the individual highlight of the entire season so far.

Speaker 2 And I have kind of mixed feelings about where that highlight is coming from relative to the rest of the story.

Speaker 2 You know, it feels a little bit wrong that I know more about Sam Rockwell's character from five minutes than basically any other character in the field of play through five episodes.

Speaker 2 And so I don't know how to process all that because I will take a big, juicy Sam Rockwell monologue wherever and whenever I can get it.

Speaker 2 But I am starting to feel a little bit of a lull, and I find myself wanting other characters throughout this cast to get similarly emotive moments. I want them to have their big, juicy monologues.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 who in this episode could have, you know, used that screen time for their own juicy monologue?

Speaker 2 I think we are destined toward one of the fancies, maybe Laurie specifically, entering into monologue territory.

Speaker 2 I'm going to say the partiers are not quite in the right state of mind to be overly verbose at this point in time, but one could be coming from at least one of the two brothers who may or may not have made out on a yacht throughout this episode.

Speaker 2 So, I think there's two.

Speaker 3 I'm saying may or may not is if you're like

Speaker 3 building a legal case against them, allegedly.

Speaker 3 We saw them make out, right?

Speaker 2 They did make it. We saw them kiss aggressively.
Would you describe that as a makeout? Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, fine.

Speaker 3 A shared smooch.

Speaker 2 Definitely. I mean, smooch is the initial approach, and then the circle back for definitely a more aggressive play.
I just, I don't know if it crossed the line into makeout.

Speaker 2 I don't know what tongues may or may not have been involved.

Speaker 2 The duration, I think there's like a very strict legal definition of makeout, and this did not quite meet the criteria.

Speaker 3 Right. Well, definitely not.
It definitely doesn't rise to hookup.

Speaker 2 There's no doubt.

Speaker 2 Okay. At least not from what we've seen.
Like, I think that's what's most worrying about all the yacht encounters. That night is still ongoing.

Speaker 2 We have no idea what's about to transpire as we bleed into episode six. We have no, maybe it's a flash forward and we never actually see it, but we see the aftermath of it.

Speaker 2 Many, many horrible things could happen involving brothers. And

Speaker 2 I continue to be incredibly concerned about the entire, the entire family dynamic, brothers included.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Okay.
okay um I have a quick question for you

Speaker 3 about

Speaker 3 a scene that Mal Mallory and I both flagged and we weren't sure we really understood and

Speaker 3 I'm curious for your take on it as the brothers are partying there's like a quick but lingering flash to Piper back home yes Piper back in the room all right and you know we've got the the fancies are out partying and then bringing the party back to their villa we've got the full moon boat partiers and then we've got Piper,

Speaker 3 Belinda, a few other people are like having their own sort of moments and experiences back in inside of the safe walls of the White Lotus.

Speaker 3 What's your interpretation of that flash to Piper? What do you think the show is trying to say with that?

Speaker 2 I mean, it felt foreboding. Did it?

Speaker 2 I thought so a little bit, but I mean, it could be as simple as a contrast piece, right? Of the life that Piper is choosing for herself or believes she's choosing for herself. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Juxtaposed against, here's what her brothers are up to. Here's what the other hotel guests are getting up to, right?

Speaker 2 Like she is cloistering herself in a way that is preventing her from living a normal 20-something life. And

Speaker 2 I know we've talked about it before, Joe, but I am definitely still of the opinion that she is going to circle back to that life by the end of the series.

Speaker 3 Normal, I mean, by what definition of normal? So this is what I wanted to come back to because

Speaker 3 I was listening to the official pod, which is co-hosted by Gia Tolentino, who is like a brilliant writer, journalist, wonderful person, also much more of a party girl than I've ever been.

Speaker 3 So like her take on things was like,

Speaker 3 the boys are out there living

Speaker 3 the thing that Piper is sort of studying to achieve, that the boys are achieving by going out, leaving the walls of the White Lotus, pursuing pleasure, pursuing joy.

Speaker 3 Whereas Piper's like, I need to study for a year to figure out what it is I want or I need or I care about.

Speaker 3 And as the like lifelong

Speaker 3 Kate and her PJs at the pool party or Piper doesn't go on the drug orgy boat myself, I was like, is it? But I mean, I don't know. What do you think of that interpretation?

Speaker 2 I kind of like it in the sense that like a chemically altered kind of like self-actualization.

Speaker 2 Like I would pay money to worry as little as Saxon worries in life, to navigate life that way seems very freeing, seems very liberating. And so I agree in the sense of

Speaker 2 there is a big philosophical clash between Lachlan and Saxon at the heart of this episode, as far as like the using people versus like what is the purpose of a life and kind of how it fits into the grand scheme of the universe.

Speaker 2 And I actually think Sam Rockwell's big monologue is almost sort of a refutation into that debate. And we can get to that later.

Speaker 2 But Piper is in so many ways, like to circle this conversation, she's still finding where she even fits into all that and what she believes and what, like, what she can even reasonably achieve with not just the means that she has, which we know are significant given her family, but is she actually going to invest spiritually in this quest that she has set out to invest in?

Speaker 3 She's invested intellectually, but is she going to be able to sort of put the rest of her inside of it? Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 3 Um, you mentioned to me that you want to talk about um something that I raised with Bill and Mal about um

Speaker 3 the

Speaker 3 not yet a make-out,

Speaker 3 definitely more than a smooch moment

Speaker 3 between Locky and Saxon.

Speaker 3 This idea that Mike White has,

Speaker 3 you know, in it was an interview he gave. I mean, I think he said it a few different times, but the one that I sort of sourced was from last season.

Speaker 3 And he was talking about this idea of making queer sex transgressive, that it was something that was interesting to him as a queer creator, that that was something that he was interested in.

Speaker 3 I will just say before, I really want to hear what you say, you think about this, but we recorded, Bill and Al and I recorded that before we were able to sort of see people's reactions to this.

Speaker 3 And I have seen some reactions of like, can we just have like a straightforward queer relationship

Speaker 3 in a White Lotus season or at least male queer relationship? Because, you know, there's definitely

Speaker 3 some stuff going on in season two for the ladies. Anyway, so what

Speaker 3 do you want to say about this?

Speaker 2 I would say that none of the relationships in White Lotus are very straightforward. And that's what I love about this show.

Speaker 2 And we're at a point in media right now overall where for very well-meaning purposes, I think a lot of the queer love we see on screen is very sweet, right?

Speaker 2 Like that, that is the overall gesture, I would say, of the direction that in terms of portraying those relationships, there's a very sanitized version of a queer relationship that we see a lot in kind of a rom-com sort of setting.

Speaker 2 I think that is wonderful and I'm glad it exists. I also want some stuff that feels weird.
I also want kind of of the full complexion of sexual experience for these characters.

Speaker 2 Like, I think about a series like Looking, which was on HBO about a decade ago. I love looking at it.

Speaker 2 And I love Looking, and I don't know that it would exist if it were kind of brought to market today.

Speaker 2 I think some alms of that show, which are not radical, but are messy in the way their relationships are messy, would be kind of... Well,

Speaker 3 it didn't even thrive the way it should have when it originally aired.

Speaker 2 Very true.

Speaker 3 I remember my colleague at the time, Ed Vanny Fair, Richard Lawson, wrote this great piece about how

Speaker 3 we let Looking down by not engaging with it the way that he really wanted people to. So, yeah, I thought that was interesting.

Speaker 2 I just want these characters to, I want something more than your red, white, and royal blues and your heart stoppers.

Speaker 2 And I feel like that's overall the kind of momentum of what queer love looks on screen in a lot of cases right now. Your Love Simons, which again are great.

Speaker 2 I just, I also want stilted and messy because queer sex is sex. And that sex is a power dynamic.
That sex is an exchange between two people who are constantly jostling for something.

Speaker 2 And I think in some cases it should be provocative.

Speaker 3 I think you mean it's a poetic act, I believe.

Speaker 2 It is also a poetic act. It's a very important part of Sam Rockwell.

Speaker 3 I think this is a good segue into

Speaker 3 an email we got from a listener about hunger, the book that Lachlan Lockhey was reading last week that we brushed against on the pod last week.

Speaker 3 But one of our listeners, Lee, wrote in to say, one of the core aspects of hunger is this figure of the wanderer, someone who is adrift and in many ways simply responding to immediate events without having a clear sense of direction.

Speaker 3 In one of Sam Navola's interviews, if I recall correctly, he characterizes Lachlan as adrift and directionless.

Speaker 3 And this book choice seems to emphasize that as for the quote darkness within in Hampson's novel, this is more kind of insanity rather than any kind of evil.

Speaker 3 However, I'm on Incest Watch 2025, so I'm super interested. In the character's tendency to misunderstand human connection as romantic.
He becomes obsessed in the book.

Speaker 3 He becomes obsessed with a woman who doesn't know he is, who he is at one point. He routinely puts people off with his intensity.
Maybe this is also meant to be saying something about Saxon.

Speaker 3 Interestingly, the main character in Hunger boards a boat at the end of the book, heading away from what he knows into an uncertain future.

Speaker 3 So maybe Lachlan could, quote, get away in a similar way to Quinn in season one. I'm not too sure about this, especially given people's tendencies to stay put in White Lotus.

Speaker 3 I'll be looking out for that as well. So what is your interpretation? Sam Novola has been giving some interviews sort of about like

Speaker 3 where he thinks Lachlan's head is inside of this exchange. But I found his performance

Speaker 3 really interesting. And I think

Speaker 3 to me,

Speaker 3 it read, especially, you know, with the lighting, the hellish lighting and all this sort of stuff like this, but it read is somewhat sinister.

Speaker 3 How did that performance read to you?

Speaker 2 I didn't get quite sinister, but definitely assertive in a way that we're just not used to seeing from Lockheed, right?

Speaker 2 This whole idea that he would never have the upper hand with Saxon in any other phase of their relationship, but when kind of chemically equalized by their circumstances, now all of a sudden there is enough chaos happening that he can seize a moment he's at least been thinking about in some context for a long time, Joe.

Speaker 2 Another thing I thought that you mentioned on the Sunday pod that I thought was really well observed was this idea of, does Locky want to be with Saxon? Does he want to be Saxon?

Speaker 2 Does he kind of have contempt for Saxon?

Speaker 2 I think he's working through a lot of conflicting emotions as to who this person is in his life because he fills a lot of different voids at this point in time.

Speaker 3 I love that.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much for liking that. And I think one of our listeners, Brian, drew a connection between that idea and Sam Rockwell's monologue, which is sort of like, do I want to

Speaker 3 fuck an Asian woman or do I want to be an Asian woman? Like, what, you know, or do I want to be the person watching me get like all this sort of stuff?

Speaker 3 Identity is a prison and this idea of sort of breaking out of any of those prisons. But this idea from the start,

Speaker 3 the earliest see episode one Lachlan Saxon vibes are off moment

Speaker 3 felt like a, do I want to be this person? Am I admiring this person's physique because I want it

Speaker 3 to be my own physique or am I admiring it because I sexually desire it?

Speaker 3 And it seems to me with Lockheed's sort of like people pleasing um body language that we that we got to earlier in the season his uncertainty his him being pulled between the the women in his family and the men in his family like all the sort of back and forth this fluidity of gender identity question

Speaker 3 um i think all of that is really in play and interesting inside of a culture um that at least from like a tourist POV of Thailand is a place for sexual exploration and gender exploration, Yes.

Speaker 2 And again, there's so much like juxtaposing of masculine and feminine in all of these episodes, but I would say especially in this one, and it's not just the Sam Rockwell monologue.

Speaker 2 I would even say everything that's going on with the fancies, which is very much a,

Speaker 2 I don't know what, do you have a preferred alternative to bros before hoes, Joe? Like,

Speaker 2 what is the counterpoint? I've heard the chicks before dicks. I've heard sisters before misters.
Do you have a preference of this specific line of thinking?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I think chicks before Dicks is pretty good. I wish I had a rhyming one ready that rhymes with like fancies or Mallory started calling him the coup.

Speaker 2 Fancies Before Mancies? Fancies Before Mancy's.

Speaker 2 But the idea of going on a girl's trip and undermining one of your friends and scooping out basically a guy from practically underneath her

Speaker 2 is undermined, or underhanded, not just in a very Jacqueline way, but in a very masculine, feminine, like adversarial kind of way.

Speaker 3 Well, I think it's interesting. We also got an email from our listener, Matt, about he was, the question, the, the, the subject line of the email is so evocative, which is like, who are the sharks?

Speaker 3 Meaning like in these tapestries that we see in the, in the opening credits, um,

Speaker 3 like

Speaker 3 we see all these predators. And so this question of like

Speaker 3 Saxon as a predator when we see him in the pool at the beginning of the season versus

Speaker 3 prey, don't take advantage of me is what he says as he like takes these drugs and stuff like this.

Speaker 3 Jacqueline is as clearly a predator, but like, how will that predator,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 are we, are we underestimating what kind of predator Laurie could be? Yeah. We get, we get a section in this episode where Lori is talking to Valentin and

Speaker 3 Alexi in the pool, and she's talking about what a hot shit lawyer she is, and like, you know, what a big deal she is. And

Speaker 3 there's a moment in that that makes me so sad because

Speaker 3 Carrie Kuhn was talking about this on the official podcast, this idea of like the storyline of the fancies is like these women who have all made choices and it's the perfect,

Speaker 3 the perfect way for you to second guess your choices is to hang out with a woman who is in your demographic, came from exactly where you came from. You have known your whole life.
She made one choice.

Speaker 3 You made another.

Speaker 3 Lori is someone who is disappointed in where her life has turned out, according to Carrie Kuhn, which bums me out because I was hoping that Lori felt like she was doing fine, but I guess she doesn't.

Speaker 2 Um, and so you thought by the bottle of shard a day, she thought she was doing fine.

Speaker 3 I'm just rooting for you always, Lori. Any Carrie Kuhn character, I'm rooting for you, but like that, that Valentin and Alexi were like laughing about her paying alimony, and she's like, aha ha.

Speaker 3 And I was just like, fuck them, you know, and like, I just want Lori to be fully in her power.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 3 And I don't know what's going to happen

Speaker 3 if she finds out. Is she going to find out?

Speaker 2 She's going to find out. Okay.

Speaker 2 She was so close. Like, this is as close as we've seen her to being in her power, right?

Speaker 2 To really letting loose, to having her moment, to getting some validation and some attention that I think she kind of desperately needs at this point in time, but in a really positive way that she created for herself.

Speaker 2 And to have Jaclyn, who never for a second was going to let one of her friends have have something that she wanted, swoop in.

Speaker 2 It's, it's so gross, but it's gross in a way that I, like, all the ways that I love this dynamic. And I love, I love that Kate is in full pajama set, waiting on the sidelines just to go to sleep.

Speaker 2 I love that Jacqueline does what she does because like that feels so true to that character. And I'm just, I am waiting for Lori's moment.

Speaker 3 To go back to your like, who, what, like, what juicy monologue do I want to see? I want to see a juicy Lori monologue, like telling Jaclyn about herself. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 And like, the thing about what Jacqueline does, it is so vile

Speaker 3 and so recognizable as behavior that we have seen versions of in people that we know.

Speaker 3 And this is the thing that White Lotus does better than anyone else, which is just sort of like, give us people that we recognize an extreme comedy version of them, but like, we know

Speaker 3 these people, you know, and I don't think anyone, I mean,

Speaker 3 I don't know that I know anyone who's kissed their brother,

Speaker 3 smooched, and more plus their brother.

Speaker 2 Maybe they just haven't talked about it.

Speaker 2 You know

Speaker 2 what happens in Thailand stays in Thailand, or so I've been told.

Speaker 3 I doubt that that's going to be the case, but we'll see. Did you see that literary legend Joyce Carol Oates

Speaker 3 put up a tweet about White Lotus?

Speaker 2 What did she say?

Speaker 3 I love how active Joyce Carol Oates is on social media. It's really funny.

Speaker 2 I don't.

Speaker 2 She's a little too online. We're all a little too online, but Joyce, you don't have to do this like we do.

Speaker 3 No, that's why. Because she's Joyce Carlos and she has no business doing any of this, and she does it anyway.

Speaker 2 I just want better for her. I want her to be on a yacht somewhere.

Speaker 3 She says, I highly recommend the White Lotus for lonely persons who fantasize how wonderful it would be to one, be in a romantic relationship with someone, two, be in an affluent family with three mostly grown children, three, have two close girlfriends whom you've known forever and love.

Speaker 3 After 10 minutes of White Lotus, you are weeping with relief that you are not alone, you are

Speaker 3 alone and not with these literally unbearable people.

Speaker 3 So yeah, this one goes out to people who live their life in isolation. White Lotus is for you.

Speaker 2 I will say I find them quite bearable at this distance. These are not people you want in your life in close proximity.
But

Speaker 2 the thing about Jacqueline that's so interesting to me is like, I am obviously not a part of these sorts of female friendships, but not as of yet, but you know, life is long.

Speaker 2 There is something about her and just her desperate desire to win that transcends, I think, any sort of relationship.

Speaker 2 And it's like she clearly has a main character syndrome thing happening in which everyone is an accessory to her story. That you see all over the place.

Speaker 2 But how competitive she is, you know, even with just like making eyes at these like younger Russian ladies across the room.

Speaker 2 And it's like, I have to beat them, not just my friends, not just everyone back home, not just everyone who might be vying for my husband's attention and affections. I have to beat these ladies too.

Speaker 2 I am constantly in battle.

Speaker 3 I love the contrast between the way she's dancing and the way that Laurie's Lori's dancing. Let's leave Kate aside for a moment and say that like the way that Jacqueline is just, it's a performance.

Speaker 3 Yes. For her.

Speaker 2 As is everything she's done the entire series, basically.

Speaker 3 And Lori is performing, but like, but then there are also just moments where Lori is just like wild and out for herself. Yeah.

Speaker 2 She's like two Shia LaBeoufs beyond just being able to perform. Like she's in a zone.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 And I just, I, there's something pure about that

Speaker 3 for me. But honestly, everyone on White Lotus disappoints me eventually.
So Lori, I'm rooting for you, but I'm sure you'll piss me off at some point.

Speaker 3 Do you want to hear? We got a couple emails that I'm going to call this section, Let's Hear from the Experts. Would you like to

Speaker 3 check in with a few of our expert listeners, Rob?

Speaker 2 I'm all about education. I'm wondering what areas of expertise we're going to dig into.
I mean, party drugs are obviously on the table. What else would they mean?

Speaker 2 Clearly, any kind of like local festival scene, anything going on with the full moon, I'd be curious to hear about.

Speaker 2 What else are we hearing?

Speaker 3 As we mentioned last week, we got a couple emails from listeners who have been to the full moon party. It's pretty cool.

Speaker 3 Sam,

Speaker 3 area of expertise, southern mainline clergy person is how they describe themselves. The clergy is weighing in on the white lettuce.
Yes. And weighing in specifically on

Speaker 3 the,

Speaker 3 I think.

Speaker 2 think it's a it's a hymn right the hymn that tim sings late in the episode right very very normally to himself muttering along as his daughter's trying to have a conversation with him.

Speaker 3 Solo falsetto that drives your daughter out of the room, totally fine. Okay.

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 3 So Tim calls himself a, says he was a choir boy.

Speaker 3 And this, Sam, our clergy person, says, well, they're definitely not Catholic, right? Which is usually where you find a choir boy. So probably Anglican, right? And Sam says,

Speaker 3 the Christmas Eve solo sung by a choir boy in the Anglican church is the first verse of Once in Royal David's City. Tim, though, sings Low How a Rose Air Blooming during the episode.

Speaker 3 The tune may just fit the mood of the episode better, but thematically, this song has a greater focus on the lineage connecting David to Jesus.

Speaker 3 Tim has a lot of focus on his own lineage and the future of his line throughout the season. He also may just like the flower imagery of the song matching the white lotus.

Speaker 3 And I just thought that was really interesting. Like the specificity,

Speaker 3 the layers of specificity is probably true of the particular kind of Christianity that Victoria and Tim have practiced

Speaker 3 especially with everything that Victoria has to say inside of this episode

Speaker 2 including about Catholics which

Speaker 2 I have to you know again she's not wrong

Speaker 3 Victoria's right about a lot of stuff tough affair Sam says the way Victoria speaks she was almost certainly raised evangelical probably southern Baptist her fear and revulsion of both Buddhism and Catholicism along with the Clintons points to that.

Speaker 3 It's interesting that these two parents raised a Buddhist and two hedonists. So

Speaker 3 that is the clergy weighing in. But I just, I love the...

Speaker 2 One aspiring hedonist, we should say. Locky's still early in his journey.

Speaker 3 He initiated the smooch.

Speaker 3 I think he's... Also, he took that party drug pretty quickly.
You think this is Lockheed's first

Speaker 3 hit of ecstasy?

Speaker 2 That's a great question. He's a high school senior, Rob.

Speaker 2 I kind of think maybe it is just because in so many ways he does does model Saxon. And I could see him to this point being a certain kind of straight edge.

Speaker 2 Obviously, Saxon himself is not exactly straight edge. He just takes other kinds of drugs.

Speaker 2 But I could see him kind of holding out on this front until this moment where it's like, not only am I on vacation, do I have this rare festival opportunity, but he's also trying to score with these two ladies right in front of him.

Speaker 2 And so he's trying to be part of the party.

Speaker 3 Our second and last expert that we're hearing from is Jake, a magician.

Speaker 3 My name is Jake, and I'm a professional magician, so these last two episodes have really caught my eye.

Speaker 3 As someone who has adamantly stayed away from using tricks to try to pick up girls, it's refreshing to see magic potentially getting someone laid for once.

Speaker 3 Lachlan's tricks that he performed in episode four are complex and take a lot of practice and forethought to accomplish.

Speaker 3 Sneaking a playing card into someone's purse on a yacht is a dangerous game that I would never even attempt.

Speaker 3 The number prediction is impossible even with existing magician methods, but I'm willing to spend my disbelief all in service of Lachlan getting some. These are not merely party tricks.

Speaker 3 Lachlan has been training for months for this moment and ultimately succeeded, although it only led to him kissing his brother so far.

Speaker 3 Only next Sunday will it be revealed if magic tricks can actually get you laid. So that is from Jake a magician.
I loved the

Speaker 3 professional insight from Jake the Magician and the religious insight

Speaker 3 from a clergy person.

Speaker 2 I love them equally. They're equally valuable in my life.

Speaker 2 Joe, were you surprised at all by Chloe being as into Locky as she was? Like that something about his whole vibe.

Speaker 3 The little magician.

Speaker 2 The little magician really spoke to her.

Speaker 3 She likes them young.

Speaker 3 Their hearts.

Speaker 2 She likes him quivering.

Speaker 3 Like a little bunny rabbit. She's a shark and he's the prey, you know? So she thinks, but I don't know.

Speaker 2 Don't rest. We're going to find out.
I will say, I do think it was in his way,

Speaker 2 actually like a little bit generous of Saxon, who has been trying to put his arm around Chloe for days now and trying to get close to her for days that when she does seem to express interest in his brother, he's just like bowing out, like letting Lachlan take the spotlight.

Speaker 2 Not a great guy, but as far as wingmen go, you could do worse

Speaker 3 than your brother.

Speaker 3 I think that's because he thinks that he can land Chelsea.

Speaker 2 He at least wants to try. Yeah.

Speaker 2 He's certainly turned on by the prospect of trying and her not being interested. Gross.

Speaker 3 Gross behavior.

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Speaker 3 All right, um, what else do you want to talk about? What's on your list to talk about?

Speaker 3 Do you want to talk about Duke basketball? Do we want to do one

Speaker 3 that we're in expert territory? We have our very own expert on this podcast, Rob Mo.

Speaker 2 See, this is where you've already overstepped because I am not by any means a college basketball expert.

Speaker 3 But you know that you're miles ahead of most people. You deal in basketball in general.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I mean, of course, 10,000 feet, I understand the parameters of college basketball.
Look,

Speaker 2 we can talk about Duke if you want to talk about Duke.

Speaker 3 Quickly, this.

Speaker 2 We can talk about what it means for a Duke alum to put a gun to their temple because this is very powerful. Okay.

Speaker 3 So our listener, Elise, wrote in and she says, I was... At the game yesterday when Cooper Flag got hurt.
All right.

Speaker 3 And we're going to talk about that in a second, if that doesn't mean anything to you listening at home. I kid you not, when he slipped, the families all around me scream, Cooper no

Speaker 3 in the thickest Carolinian accent I've ever heard. And whelp, now I'm a believer from the NC front lines, the Duke UNC frontline.
These posy Isaac accents are legit.

Speaker 3 So if you are not into basketball, college, or otherwise, you may not know why the image of Jason Isaacs in a Duke t-shirt with a gun to his head has been sort of popping up all around the internet, but this is a very like

Speaker 3 meme-heavy, meme-friendly.

Speaker 3 White Lotus always produces tremendous memes, and this is something that Parker Posey was talking about on the official podcast: this idea that, like, we live in this memetic world where Mike White has created this perfect show that has the like whodunit out aspect for the sort of Reddit detective junkies, has this sort of character study, comedy of manner stuff for the like jane austen dickens you know whatever fans uh the checkoff fans if you will and then uh the memes for

Speaker 3 for the folks for the people um

Speaker 2 and so for the people with brain rot who are just you know look we're all trying to do better

Speaker 3 check it in for judy so who's cooper flagged and why should we care rub

Speaker 2 I mean, whether you care is totally up to you. Cooper Flag is probably going to be the next great NBA player, almost certainly going to be the number one pick in the NBA draft this summer.

Speaker 2 He had a pretty gnarly ankle injury recently.

Speaker 2 And I will say, I assume since this email was sent, actually seems to be on the mend quite quickly and probably will be participating very soon in the NCAA tournament.

Speaker 2 But this meme is basically evergreen. Duke is a prohibitive favorite in the tournament.
I would say the overwhelming favorite. And yet.
A lot of things happen when Duke is involved.

Speaker 2 This is a team that is not opposed and not averse to just randomly blowing a game in the middle of the tournament, randomly destroying a run in real time. And so the moment for that meme is coming.

Speaker 2 And I salute everyone out there who's just saving it down,

Speaker 2 ready to spring into action whenever something involving Duke happens. Because look.
Basketball and otherwise, Duke is never not in the noose. So

Speaker 3 it's fraud. It's fraud school.
Okay.

Speaker 2 It's going to be the gift that keeps on giving, I think. Thank you to Jason Isaacs for bringing it right to our door in the most literal fashion possible.

Speaker 3 Let's do a quick, and I did not ask you you to prepare for this, so I'm sorry to put you on the spot.

Speaker 3 A quick ranking of the top four memes produced from this season of White Lotus, because I believe the contenders are

Speaker 3 Walton Goggin's reaction face to the Sarah Walkwell monologue, right?

Speaker 2 The best part about that one is it is basically the same in video as it is in Still Shot. Like he is just frozen in place for minutes at a time and it's incredible.

Speaker 3 The Leslie Bibb fake smile.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Full squint.

Speaker 3 The Parker posy sort of like her hand, like she's also squinting like hands up, sort of like blissed out on Lorazapam, wearing like a Moo Moo sort of situation.

Speaker 3 Or Parker Posey's reaction to the dudes on the yacht, either one of those. And then Tim Ratliff in a Duke t-shirt with a gun.

Speaker 2 I think at this moment in time,

Speaker 2 Goggins is the most powerful.

Speaker 2 We've all been through this together and we're all kind of in that particular foxhole watching this episode. So

Speaker 2 it just feels like it's bringing us all into one place.

Speaker 3 I feel like

Speaker 3 the one that's going to last, endure is Leslie Babe.

Speaker 2 I agree.

Speaker 2 This is exactly what I was thinking. That one will live on the internet forever.
It just has infinite utility.

Speaker 2 It's perfect fodder to throw into the dumb internet argument. that you kind of want to get out of and back away from.
And look, who among us is not subject to those?

Speaker 3 I feel like it's going to be, I would like to see it replace Homer slowly backing into a hedge.

Speaker 2 It is the southern version of that, very much so.

Speaker 3 Okay, I want to talk about Belinda and Fabian for a second. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Because Fabian really disappointed me.

Speaker 3 We got an email from a listener who was talking about, who sent us a clip from Babylon Berlin, a show that I did not watch,

Speaker 3 but the actor plays Fabian was on and sings beautifully on that show.

Speaker 3 And so they were saying, like, maybe we'll get to see him sing, like, as it's sort of been, he's been sort of raising it here and there, because here he sang on Babylon Berlin and it was wonderful and beautiful.

Speaker 3 Fabian, I was rooting for you, but now I am, I cannot, I can root for you no longer, given your repulsive reaction to Belinda here. And one of our other listeners, Alicia, wrote in

Speaker 3 saying,

Speaker 3 and this is something I meant to raise earlier, but there were these questions like, why isn't Belinda acting faster? Why isn't she Googling Greg faster? Why isn't she being more confrontational?

Speaker 3 Why is she taking her time in terms of like reporting this, digging into this, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3 And I do think there's something to be said because Mike White is interested in sort of like definite social dynamics of black women feeling like they're not believed in given in any given scenario.

Speaker 3 And so to watch this, this woman,

Speaker 3 you know, who Fabian is like, you should be flattered by the attention of

Speaker 3 this psychopath, this rich white psychopath, you know, is,

Speaker 3 you know, Mike White, I think,

Speaker 3 tries not, and he has given interviews about this because he doesn't have a writer's room and it's just him, a white guy, writing about this stuff, he, he gets like, um,

Speaker 3 hesitant to dip his toe too much into sort of speaking from a position that he has not lived himself. A way to solve that, Mike White, is to have a writer's room.

Speaker 3 I believe strongly in writer's rooms, but that's okay. You do you?

Speaker 3 But what do you think of the Belinda Fabian interaction? How are you feeling about that?

Speaker 2 I mean, it strikes me as just a, a very, again, recognizable version of feckless compliance, this sort of like, don't ask questions, don't overstep. It's taking customer service.

Speaker 2 And I mean, what is White Lotus if not on some level a show about the customer, like the service industry and taking it to these ridiculous, luxurious extremes where the first rule is not do no harm.

Speaker 2 It is do not, do you, like, do not disturb the guests under any possible circumstances. And so I think we need to open up the conversation.

Speaker 2 You know, Guy Talk's been getting a lot of grief about being bad at his job, and he is quite bad at his job.

Speaker 2 Fabian is also

Speaker 2 aggressively bad at his job, though.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Guy talk continues to be not great at his job.

Speaker 2 Terrible.

Speaker 2 But Fabian,

Speaker 2 he doesn't even know the owner of the hotel's name, like how to pronounce it correctly.

Speaker 3 Okay, listen. Who is getting employee of the month? And why is it Pam? Why is this definitely Pam?

Speaker 2 Pam seems to really get it. She understands how to back slowly out of a room.
She understands how to gather the phones, but also, you know, make herself scarce.

Speaker 3 Valentin and Pornchai seem to be like, you know, having,

Speaker 3 I don't know if we could say that Pornchai is having sex on the job. Valentin definitely is having sex on the job.

Speaker 3 Pornchai is just like fraternizing with a fellow staff member, which I don't know,

Speaker 3 you know?

Speaker 2 Look,

Speaker 2 no judgments there. I think Mooka is is also doing a great job.
There are people at the White Lotus who are like, okay, you understand

Speaker 2 your role in this entire dynamic.

Speaker 2 Punch Eye is an interesting part of that. I don't know if, because ultimately, he's not just a colleague, but he's kind of responsible for Belinda, kind of showing her around.

Speaker 2 And look, I am extremely. He's showing her around, Rob.
He certainly is.

Speaker 2 Look, I'm happy for both of those kids.

Speaker 2 I'm glad they finally figured it out. I'm glad Belinda ultimately has something to do that is not just worry and be antsy about Greg.
Like,

Speaker 2 I think this overall, this plot thread has been so slow moving because half of it has been Belinda by herself, worrying that no one is going to believe her.

Speaker 2 Part of it is her trying to explain the situation first to Ponchai, who's just kind of like listening.

Speaker 2 just kind of tuned in and listening, but makes no gesture whatsoever as to what she should do or whether he even like fully understands the gravity of the situation.

Speaker 2 And then, of course, Fabian like shooting her down for absolutely no reason other than he just doesn't want to be bothered and doesn't want to bother the guests.

Speaker 3 Fabian, I'm just like enormously disappointed in you.

Speaker 3 We've been talking all season about this idea of like, and White Lotus says this all the time: this idea of like doubling, in the case of the fancies, tripling these mirrors through which you can sort of better understand characters.

Speaker 3 Something that I thought was really interesting that one of our listeners, Jefferson, wrote in about was

Speaker 3 the unexpected, but probably we should have expected expected it um

Speaker 3 tim and rick parallels when we meet them in episode one on the boat they're fighting over like having a cigarette on the deck of the boat and it's like these two couldn't be more different he's a family man and he's a potential con man you know like all this sort of stuff like that but can we wind back to that that fight for a second because i i gotta say i think i'm team rick yeah they're outside fair game yeah you as the person who doesn't want to be in the smoke line are also free to move you and your family can move to the front of the boat.

Speaker 2 In some cases, I would say the front of the boat is an even better seat. So what are you doing back here?

Speaker 3 The fact that Rick and that Tim inside of this episode, we heard about it a bit when he was on the boat and talking about his lineage,

Speaker 3 the governor of North Carolina, and like all that sort of stuff like that, right? But like inside of this episode, we get this

Speaker 3 pressure.

Speaker 3 You're asking for juicy monologues from some of our main characters.

Speaker 3 I would say, I wouldn't call this like a monologue, but like a juicy moment from Tim Ratliff talking about the pressure that's been on him his whole life and talking about the shadow of his father over him.

Speaker 3 And of course, Rick has been talking about the shadow of his father over him. And our listener pointed out that

Speaker 3 Rick's got a gun and Tim's got a gun. These are the only two characters.
Sorry, Guy Talk, these are the only two characters right now on the show who have guns.

Speaker 2 Two daddy's boys with guns. What could possibly go wrong?

Speaker 3 It's justified time, I think. My daddy.
Anyway, so

Speaker 3 what do you think of them as mirrors? Is that interesting to you?

Speaker 2 I mean, I've been waiting for it all season for them to be in close proximity again since that kind of first episode argument. And they've really just had those sorts of moments, right?

Speaker 2 I think Rick kind of passed by him when,

Speaker 2 yeah, well, that's on the boat when Tim was out making one of his panicked, like harried phone calls, passed by him and made some little clip.

Speaker 2 They need to be in the same space for an extended period of time.

Speaker 2 And I'll say if I have kind of a general disappointment in where we are five episodes deep into the season of White Lotus, there just isn't as much cross-contamination as I would want other than the people who are currently on the yacht.

Speaker 3 Right. Like you really want to have talked to each other? Sorry.
Who's that?

Speaker 2 No, please.

Speaker 3 I think Chelsea, for all of her like annoyance with Saxon and whatever, I want Piper and Chelsea to have a conversation.

Speaker 3 I think Piper would have a much better holiday and Chelsea would be less annoyed by the absence of Rick. I think, I feel like they would be good for each other, Piper and Chelsea.

Speaker 2 I'm rooting for it. I'll say this.
I think Piper needs a Chelsea in her life.

Speaker 3 More benefit to Piper than to Chelsea, but I think it would spare Chelsea from having to talk to Saxon. So, you know, there's always that.

Speaker 2 So, the perfect part about the Ratliff kids is that they are all kind of tough hangs in their own way. And I really don't want to spend time with any of them.

Speaker 2 And as usual, Chelsea is the best hang on the show. And she's going through it a little bit more this week.
She's clearly feeling Rick's absence.

Speaker 2 She's trying to process her own place in the world, her own place in her relationship, her own place in this forsome that is apparently manifesting right in front of her.

Speaker 2 I'm worried for Chelsea as usual.

Speaker 3 I, all I want from, I mean, these brothers, I don't want anything more to happen, but if something more happens between these brothers, that's its own thing, and I'm not that emotionally invested in it.

Speaker 3 I need Chelsea to stay out of it, whatever it is. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, for Rick, I'm rooting for these kids.

Speaker 2 I go back and forth on whether I'm rooting for them as a pairing, them as a relationship.

Speaker 3 He's like her

Speaker 3 child, her 50-year-old child, from what could be wrong with that dynamic?

Speaker 2 What are you talking about? It all seems very healthy.

Speaker 3 Do you want to talk about the Sam Rockwell monologue? We've been talking around it. Do you want to talk about it?

Speaker 2 I think we have to, but talking around it is kind of fair for this show because the show, this whole episode feels like it's kind of talking around it at a certain point.

Speaker 3 Well, and I think what's also interesting, you know,

Speaker 3 Bill was quite enamored with his monologue. We talked about it a ton on Sunday.

Speaker 3 People in general seem quite enamored, enamored, and it is a big moment.

Speaker 3 You know, we did the sort of like Oscar guest star guessing game. And then after we record that episode, you did go home and watch the screener and you were like, Sam Rockwell didn't see it coming.

Speaker 2 So I'm so mad I didn't know the Leslie Bibb connection, or else it's the writing is on the wall, right?

Speaker 2 It all makes sense as to how he would end up on the sidelines in Thailand and they would just tap him in for a great scene.

Speaker 3 Pour one out for your idea of Eddie Redmain at the Full Moon Festival, though. I thought that was was an incredible idea.

Speaker 3 But Sam Rockwell, Oscar Winter, shows up to do the scene and it seems like do more because Rick's like, I'm going to need you for this con I have to pull, right?

Speaker 3 Like he has said he has a director friend, so like it seems like they're going to go full, full

Speaker 3 con

Speaker 3 buddy comm job, which is a great

Speaker 3 premise for anything.

Speaker 2 How Rockwell do you think Rockwell is going to go when playing a director? Because this is a man who knows how to ham it up.

Speaker 3 True. That's a great point.

Speaker 3 But this is chamomile tea, Frank, so I don't know if he's as at a different point in his life.

Speaker 2 He's not making see how they run anymore.

Speaker 2 He's just trying to chill out and get a good night's sleep. But I think that, like,

Speaker 3 I feel mixed on this monologue. I think it's an incredible moment, a great TV moment.
But to your point,

Speaker 3 and I had this in my notes before you were talking about this, but like,

Speaker 3 it's not a character monologue. It's a theme monologue.
It's a monologue that's based to the theme of White Lotus.

Speaker 2 I mean, it is a character monologue. It's just a character we don't have any attachment to.

Speaker 3 Zero investment in Frank.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Zero.

Speaker 2 And I mean, I have more now, but.

Speaker 3 I have 5% investment in Frank. But like, you know,

Speaker 3 it's

Speaker 3 I when when I think about great TV monologues, and this is something we want to talk about in a second which is like Rob and I have tried to limit ourselves to a few but we've rounded up like our what are the best TV monologues of all time?

Speaker 3 Does this rank, you know, all that sort of stuff like that for me a great TV monologue is not just like beautiful writing or thematically resonant. It is a character moment and

Speaker 3 That may not prove to be true of everything that I have put together here today, but this is like something I was thinking about that I was I was like, why isn't this striking me as one of the greatest TV moments of all time, the way that it is striking other people?

Speaker 3 And I think I'm just missing, and White Lotus gets accused of this sometimes, I'm missing that emotional investment

Speaker 3 to

Speaker 3 make it like a full home run

Speaker 2 for me.

Speaker 3 You know what I mean? What do you think?

Speaker 2 That's where I would say it is a great monologue. It's incredibly well written.
I do want to engage in the ideas because I think they're interesting on their own terms.

Speaker 2 And it is not unwelcome to have a character outside the story come in to sort of give a thesis statement time and, you know, in certain kinds of fiction and certain kinds of narrative.

Speaker 2 I understand the appeal of that. But yeah, I'm with you that I want it to mean more because I want the character it's coming from to mean more to me.

Speaker 2 And so even when I'm thinking about things in the world of White Lotus, which I think can be quite personal and I think can come from a place of, if not heart, at least like a really complex emotional center.

Speaker 2 To me, the gold standard for like a white lotus monologue is more like some of what we get from Daphne in season two in terms of like her big speech about having the trainer and like finding a fulfillment in life.

Speaker 2 And it's like, it's this, a great white lotus monologue to me is both very like penetrative, but also still mysterious and muddled in the way that the show is often mysterious and muddled.

Speaker 2 And so this is some of those things, but it can't be actually penetrative because we don't care about the character it's coming from other than we care about Sam Rockwell.

Speaker 2 And so what are we to do with all of these ideas, but no bucket to put it in that makes any sense to us?

Speaker 3 And there's not even because, you know, he's giving it giving the monologue to Rick a character I am emotionally invested in,

Speaker 3 but Rick's response is like memeable and comic,

Speaker 3 but I don't know what this revelation,

Speaker 3 if this is shifting anything inside of Rick. The way that like, you know, some of his sessions with Amrita back at the White Lotus certainly was shifting something inside of him.

Speaker 3 Those were big sort of emotional

Speaker 3 tectonic plates moving around inside of Rick. Yes.
Whereas this is more like

Speaker 3 amused wonderment and vague support. You know what I mean? Is sort of what it seemed like.
Now,

Speaker 3 I could be wrong, and it could be that, like, whatever crossroads Rick is headed towards with Jim Hollinger, that when it comes to do I do a murder or do I not, he is thinking about his friend who's talking about the larger idea of identity, which is also what Anrita was talking about.

Speaker 3 So it's possible that this will have that. But in the moment,

Speaker 3 every shift a Goggins face is a comedy shift and not a like emotional shift.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I think for now it is. And you would hope in the ultimate payoff, it is more than that.

Speaker 2 And so, if you want to start connecting the dots of what this could actually mean to someone like Rick, I would say it's this.

Speaker 2 To me, at this point in the story, what Frank is saying is more in conversation with maybe what Saxon and Lockheed are talking about, right?

Speaker 2 This idea of like some people in this world just want to be used and Frank has been that guy.

Speaker 2 He has been the user and he has seen through it and he has fucked his way to enlightenment and he has found at the end of the day, like, what does it cost the person doing the using if that is all that you do?

Speaker 2 And you can start replacing some of the nouns in there and some of the verbs in there and take it from Rick's perspective or almost any character in the season of White Lotus of what does it do to you when you're putting all these other people in your life to help contextualize your own identity?

Speaker 2 When you are using those people to triangulate who you are, right? Like Rick is defining himself by this story that his mom told him about who his dad may or may not be.

Speaker 2 And that's that's the only way he has can really understand his place in the world.

Speaker 2 And you could say the same thing about Jacqueline with her friends, you could say the same thing about Tim Ratliff and all the people at the club and sort of the pillar of the community identity that he's constructed for himself.

Speaker 2 All of these people are using in their own ways.

Speaker 3 That's not just using, it's just like this is not that's a natural human approach.

Speaker 3 So I would say, especially in a, in a in a let's say like the fish tank that is white lotus when you go on vacation to a place like this and

Speaker 3 which is all about status and displaying some a front of some kind you are constantly valuating yourself against the people you're traveling with or the other guests who are chowing down on dragon fruit at the next table you know what i mean so like

Speaker 2 have you seen the price of dragon fruit it's ridiculous Anything near eggs?

Speaker 3 Did you see that? So, our pal Mallory Rubin sent us

Speaker 3 a text last night. I don't know what his time,

Speaker 3 about the price of hard-boiled eggs at Erewhon.

Speaker 2 Well, specifically and in very Mallory style, it seemed like door dashing or Uber eating herself some hard-boiled eggs from Erewhon.

Speaker 3 I think she was ordering something else. She was door dashing something else from Erewhon.
Yes. And she was like,

Speaker 3 get a load of these hard-boiled eggs from Erewhon. Did you know that, did you see that Jaclyn was carrying an Erewhon tote bag in a previous episode? It all comes back together.

Speaker 2 Does not surprise me one time.

Speaker 3 It's using people, but it's also just like a status. It's like, how do I understand myself if not in contrast to someone else?

Speaker 3 How do I, Lachlan, understand myself if not in contrast to my stronger, taller, older brother or my more intellectually engaged older sister?

Speaker 2 But isn't this what Frank's doing at the end of the day, too? It's like, am I the middle-aged white guy, or am I the Asian woman that I'm trying to have sex with? Like,

Speaker 2 where am I? Where do I end and this other person begin? And who's to say we aren't?

Speaker 3 And isn't the enlightened space

Speaker 3 not putting that label on yourself or that box around yourself? Identity is a prison, rich man, poor man sort of thing

Speaker 3 inside of the show.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 I think Rick,

Speaker 3 Rick, not Rick comparing himself to to Chelsea like the way in which Rick comparing himself to a snake trapped in a cage and certainly Rick comparing himself to this like

Speaker 3 fairy tale of a do-gooder father and what will it mean that

Speaker 3 if you're if most of your identity is constructed around or in comparison to or in the shadow of something that winds up to not be true

Speaker 3 you know what does that do to you for you does it liberate you or does it you know damn you i don't know joe i i don't think it's going to liberate liberate him, unfortunately.

Speaker 3 Just let him out of the cage.

Speaker 2 It'll be fine.

Speaker 2 But even the snakes are just part of the snake show.

Speaker 3 We're all in the snake show together, Rob. All right, Gee, do you

Speaker 3 want to hit me with some of your favorite TV monologues?

Speaker 2 This was a very easy prompt.

Speaker 2 Just find the greatest TV monologues of all time.

Speaker 3 And I gave you like a couple hours' notice.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think you and I had like separate but equal meltdowns around this because like I thought this would be a fun breezy idea and then you and I both got a got stuck in there's too many options.

Speaker 3 What do you want to start with?

Speaker 2 I have a very normal 10 item list

Speaker 2 for your prompt. How about this?

Speaker 2 I'm going to try to start with things that I think you might also have.

Speaker 2 I think you might also have

Speaker 2 Nora Durst in the season three finale of the leftovers explaining her journey to the other side.

Speaker 3 My assumption is that you would have Nora Durst in this in the this is the game I played with Malior and House.

Speaker 2 You did Kevin?

Speaker 3 Kevin? I did Kevin from the finale.

Speaker 2 You've Kevin?

Speaker 2 I did Kevin.

Speaker 3 Kevin talking about like

Speaker 3 that's how I found you, Nora. I refuse to believe you were gone.

Speaker 3 That always gets me. I'm always crying at that point in the finale.

Speaker 2 All right, what else might you have? Do you have Jamie Lannister on how he became the Kingslayer in Game of Thrones? Obviously.

Speaker 2 Well, look, obviously. I didn't know if you'd go Tyrion.
Like, there's a lot of Game of Thrones to choose from, just like there's a lot of level of.

Speaker 3 There's a lot of of Game of Thrones to choose from, but Jamie Lannister in the episode Kiss by Fire in the bathtub with Brianne talking about

Speaker 3 Burn Them All is, of course, Jamie. My name is Jamie.

Speaker 3 Of course, my Game of Thrones one.

Speaker 3 Do you have, this is like a game of GoFish. Do you, Rob,

Speaker 3 have

Speaker 3 Anya in the Buffy Vampire Slayer episode, The Body, talking about

Speaker 3 death and her not understanding it?

Speaker 2 I considered it. I don't consider it to be a true monologue so much as an outburst.
It's like it's it's it's almost not long enough to be monologue territory to me.

Speaker 3 It's on the shorter test. It's on the shorter territory.
It's

Speaker 2 legend shit from maybe my favorite character in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So, of course, it holds a very special place in my heart.
I went a different Whedon direction, though.

Speaker 2 Do you have any other Joss Whedon stuff?

Speaker 2 This one I don't think would make many other lists, but it's very important to me, which is in the Angel episode Epiphany.

Speaker 2 Angel has this big understanding of like like identifying your place in the universe based on these like big omens and like prophecy and understanding that and he has this big speech about how if nothing we do matters like capital m matters in an omen prophecy sense that all that matters is what we do and it kind of puts into puts a very grand like demons and vampires level show into a very boots on the ground like how do we help literally a single person this week kind of show in a way that i appreciate welcome to the list david boreetas i didn't expect to find you here and yet here you are.

Speaker 3 Rob, we haven't talked about the show,

Speaker 3 but do you have anything from the Star Wars show and/or?

Speaker 2 You know, I don't, but that's just an oversight on my part. I'm guessing, do you have the Fiona Shaw hologram speech?

Speaker 3 That one's incredible. There's also the Andy Circus

Speaker 3 speech, one way out, but I've got a Stellen Scarzard speech. Luke,

Speaker 2 I think about this living in the shadows, et cetera, et cetera. is my sacrifice?

Speaker 3 I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else's future.
I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see.

Speaker 3 And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything.

Speaker 3 That is one of the best things I've ever seen on television, Andor.

Speaker 2 Outstanding. Yeah.

Speaker 2 We're about to get more Andor. I'm so excited about it.

Speaker 2 I'm going to go for more low-hanging fruit. How about breaking bad I am the one who knocks?

Speaker 3 It was on my long list, but I was hoping you would have it, so I don't have it.

Speaker 2 Again, just checking them off. How about Mad Men nostalgia? Obviously.

Speaker 2 Obviously.

Speaker 2 This is one I have an art print of, of this full text in addition to like a mock-up. I mean, it's look, it's a beautiful speech, nostalgia and the pain of an old wound.

Speaker 3 Do you have it like on your dorm wall? Like, is that, how long have you had it?

Speaker 2 This has been in the, it's not quite dorm wall, but like first apartment past dorm wall.

Speaker 3 What's What's the most embarrassing in retrospect poster you or like the most prototypically college poster you had up when you were in college?

Speaker 2 Did I have the like a like a the photo still shot of Muhammad Ali maybe? I'm trying to remember. There definitely was something purchased from like the campus poster store.

Speaker 2 But I will say I did bring a lot of my own stuff. I did bring a lot.

Speaker 2 I happened upon like a great vintage poster store here in Dallas that has since shut down and brought a lot of stuff with me that was more like the departed Kill Bill star.

Speaker 2 Well, I like Tarantino for sure at that point in time.

Speaker 2 I think maybe some old boy in there. So it's, you know, definitely college zoned, but not quite campus poster store.

Speaker 3 The train spotting Choose Life monologue art print.

Speaker 2 Got to do it. Come on.

Speaker 3 I'm just saying that's my most basic bitch.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 this device isn't a spaceship. It's a time machine.
It goes backwards and forwards. The carousel speech from Mad Men, perfect television.

Speaker 2 Another great one as character, right? Like this, this speech being a personal revelation for Don Draper as he is delivering it is what makes it so surprised at the end of the speech.

Speaker 3 He's he's showing photos of, and what I love about watching that pitch, spoilers for Mad Men, but he's like showing photos of his family, of Betty, and even when we watch that, we're like, it's not as pretty as this picture.

Speaker 3 But going all the way through Mad Men and knowing where he winds up with his family at the end of that show, that scene hits even harder on rewatch.

Speaker 3 What else do you have?

Speaker 2 Every time Al Swearengin opens his mouth in Deadwood, you cannot make me choose between them.

Speaker 2 Many times he's just like talking at someone, often like a sex worker who may or may not be servicing him as he gives one of these monologues.

Speaker 2 So legend shit across Deadwood, but especially from Al Swearengen.

Speaker 3 On the legend shit beat, I will submit to the jury

Speaker 3 Chuck's

Speaker 3 courtroom meltdown from Better Call Sol, where he says, Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Chicanery,

Speaker 3 he defecated through a sunroof and I saved him.

Speaker 3 What a sick joke. I have to say, on,

Speaker 3 I love Better Call Sol. I think it's wonderful television.

Speaker 3 Chuck McGill,

Speaker 3 incredible stuff from him in that.

Speaker 3 But what I love about speaking of like the meme culture that we live in, if you go on any Reddit TV board, someone at some point will either say chicanery or what a sick joke.

Speaker 3 Like this monologue is like lives forever in the television Reddit subreddits. All right, what else do you have?

Speaker 2 It's a beautiful thing. I would not be me if I did not include Jed Bartlett talking with God in the West Wing.

Speaker 3 Two cathedrals.

Speaker 2 Two cathedrals, the real ones. No, I mean, maybe the most acclaimed and beloved episode of that show.
So for good reason.

Speaker 3 Do you have any Doctor Who?

Speaker 2 I don't. Which doctor did you go to? Oh, it was 11.

Speaker 3 The Pandorica opens.

Speaker 3 Okay. And I almost, did you do any Friday Night Lights?

Speaker 2 It almost feels like cheating. I think if you're going to do one, it's the pre-championship game.
Like every man is going to lose at a point in his life kind of speech.

Speaker 3 A Doctor Who speech and a Coach Taylor speech, I agree, kind of feels a little bit like cheating, but here we are. What else do you have?

Speaker 2 I think if I was going to choose a Doctor Who speech, it would be, I want to say it's David Tennant's like introduction episode where he ends up aping like half of the Lion King as he's, as he's going on his speech.

Speaker 2 Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful turn.

Speaker 2 Bojack Horseman, Bojack's eulogy for his mom/slash reckoning with generational trauma.

Speaker 2 Light and cheery stuff from the Netflix animation suite, as always.

Speaker 3 Speaking of Netflix and Light and Cheery,

Speaker 3 are you a Flanagan head? Have you watched any of the Mike Flanagan properties?

Speaker 2 I actually have just like not made it to it for some reason.

Speaker 3 Midnight Mass, which I re-watch every year at Halloween, is a

Speaker 3 like monologue topia of just deep thoughts.

Speaker 3 And there is one that a character gives as she's dying. And actually, she's talking about

Speaker 3 Buddhist ideas in terms of what it means to die, which I think is very relevant to White Lotus. But a Flanagan monologue has to be in the mix somewhere for sure.

Speaker 2 I feel like we're hitting all of the major players in the monologuing scene, really.

Speaker 3 I have two more. What else do you have?

Speaker 2 I have kind of two more, but they're from one series, and I mostly kind of split the baby on this one.

Speaker 2 For Fleabag, I couldn't decide between the season one confessional for fleabag herself or the hot priest's wedding sermon in season two, which I think is just beautiful.

Speaker 2 So it depends on the day, it depends on my level of dread and how much I want to engage with the optimism and hope in the universe, but either one, depending on your flavor.

Speaker 3 I went with confessional, fleabag confessional.

Speaker 2 That's a cry for help, Joe.

Speaker 3 Last but not least,

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 I'm okay that I'm the only one that

Speaker 3 Carmy's seven-minute monologue from the bear season one finale.

Speaker 3 And to go back to this sort of like

Speaker 3 character-centric thing, this is Carmy talking about his brother and talking about what his brother meant to him. And this is where we get the sort of like let it rip

Speaker 3 sort of catchphrase and what however you feel about where the bear has journeyed on its on its run re-watching that monologue seven minutes most of which is one shot one just push on um jeremy allen white's face there's like one small cut to a closer shot but it's mostly i would say five minutes of just an actor talking at the camera about his brother and what and and what living in the shadow of his brother has meant to him and stuff like that so like carmy's yeah model like that when i i remember watching the bear season one, and there's like, obviously, like, the one or episode and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 But I remember watching this monologue and being like, this is really something in terms of like the confidence to just let an actor who is not even an Oscar winner Sam Rockwell, because Jeremy Allen White, you know, was just lip from shameless at the time, right?

Speaker 2 Like to let that well, they found their own Oscar winning guest stars, you know, they figured it out. That was the little engine that could, that is the bear.

Speaker 3 But they started with, they were, they were an out-of-nohere show.

Speaker 3 They started with this Carmy monologue, and I think about it all the time. So those are some of our,

Speaker 3 we had a couple hours to think about, top TV monologues.

Speaker 2 Symposium.

Speaker 3 And I want to sort of honorable mention,

Speaker 3 our producer, Justin Sales, wanted to get Sopranos in there. And since Rob and I canonically famously have not seen The Sopranos, it's a season four Sopranos monologue, economic downturn,

Speaker 3 time immemorial.

Speaker 3 These are the words that Justin said to me that I needed to represent for Sopranos on the Pot. So there you go.

Speaker 2 I would love to hear what other people's favorite monologues are at prestige TV at spotify.com slash monkeyshootout at gmail.com.

Speaker 2 I would say especially if your favorite monologue comes before the quote-unquote golden age of Prestige TV.

Speaker 2 If you have like a pre-2005 monologue that really speaks to you, I would love to know what it is. What's our oldest?

Speaker 3 Is West Wing is like our oldest one, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, West Wing. I mean,

Speaker 2 the angel one was season two. I can't remember.
That might be early 2000s. Early 2000s, yeah.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 3 So we did mostly, mostly White Lotus with a

Speaker 3 little side of TV monologues throughout history that we've enjoyed.

Speaker 3 I don't know. I'll be curious to see, but I don't know that the Sam Rockwell monologue will linger with me the way that those have, but

Speaker 2 it will not.

Speaker 3 I don't know.

Speaker 2 I will say this. I have just come to visit my parents.
One of the first things my mother said to me was, whoever writes White Lotus needs to be arrested in regard to this specific monologue.

Speaker 2 So I think it's registering the people in different ways.

Speaker 2 I do find it to be tremendously memorable. And I think I'm going to remember certainly the Gaggins' reaction shots, certainly like

Speaker 2 if not the philosophical core of the argument, certainly the shock value of having it land in the middle of this season.

Speaker 2 And that's kind of, I will say, the downside of having it is this season has needed that sort of juice quite badly.

Speaker 2 And to get it in a way that sparks contrast with everything around it, I think does end up hurting White Lotus a little bit.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, episode five, coming in the middle of the season with this monologue and two brothers doing more than smooching, less than making out,

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 definitely a lot of people are kind of enervated by it, like, you know, excited to see what happens next.

Speaker 2 We're revving up. I hope they are not revving up.
I hope they are cooling down. Put those boys in a cold shower.

Speaker 2 Not together.

Speaker 3 not together where is kate to say time to go to bed everyone um

Speaker 3 rob does your mom listen to this podcast

Speaker 2 i hope not me too maybe hi mom hi mom if you do rob's mom uh

Speaker 3 anything else you want to say about white lotus or anything else before we go

Speaker 2 i just was really personally hurt by the fact that we breeze our way into bangkok

Speaker 2 in a version of the show i would very much love to see just like rick paling around town great we're just like one shot down the street of of all this beautiful street food and we don't get one, one lingering, loving shot of some wonderful Thai street food.

Speaker 2 What are we doing here? What are we doing here, Rob?

Speaker 3 What are we doing here?

Speaker 2 I am here for my version of luxury, which is not, you know, the yoga retreat within the white lotus.

Speaker 2 I want street meat. You know, I want food that is so natively, incandescently hot that I could not possibly eat it, but I will try.
That's what I want. All right.

Speaker 3 Well, that does it for us.

Speaker 3 I'm Joanna Robinson. That's Street Meet Mahoney.
Is that

Speaker 2 anyone's going to catch on? Simply not.

Speaker 3 And I would like to thank Justin Sales for his Sopranos input among many other things.

Speaker 3 John Richter for all of his great work on the video front end. Donnie Beecham for

Speaker 3 doing the edits, making us sound as doing his best with what we put out there in the content sphere. And we will see you later today for a live severance Q mailbag.

Speaker 3 If we're wearing different clothes, don't worry about it. What is time? We'll see you soon.

Speaker 2 Bye.