‘Black Doves’ Review: Festive Violence, Bloody Spycraft, and the London Underworld

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Speaker 2 Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Duana Robinson.

Speaker 1 I'm Rob Mahoney.

Speaker 2 And listen, Rob, we have a lot of, an unusual amount of business to get through at the beginning of this podcast here today.

Speaker 2 First and foremost, we want to let you all know, if you don't, haven't already noticed that the algorithm hasn't organically fed it to you. Creepy language.

Speaker 2 There's a new Ringer TV YouTube channel. Rob, what can folks find on the Ringer TV YouTube channel?

Speaker 1 Only all of the most exciting content about television, mostly featuring us truly, but also featuring Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald, everything that the watch is putting out, all sorts of upcoming video essays.

Speaker 1 I would go as far as to recommend, Joe, that people subscribe to it and like all of that content and share it amongst their friends.

Speaker 1 I think it would be a time well spent overall. Smash that subscribe button.

Speaker 2 Go ahead and leave a comment or all complimentary comments, please. Of course.
Yeah, that's where you can see Rob and

Speaker 2 yours truly, us truly. CR and Andy, Charles, Jodie, Juliet, Mallory, Ben, Bill Simmons himself will be joining the Prestige feed for

Speaker 2 a show you might have heard of next year. We're quite excited to have Bill back sort of a little regularly on the feed.
So follow along on the Ringer TV YouTube channel.

Speaker 2 Obviously, we'll still be on your podcast feeds, but there will be some, you know, YouTube exclusive content coming from our various pods, and we're really excited about it.

Speaker 2 Speaking of YouTube-exclusive content,

Speaker 2 I believe this this is true. We're still in the formulating stages, but I believe CR and I are going to be doing some sort of regular mailbag

Speaker 2 content for you guys on YouTube, just basically answering your most burning TV questions, whether it's industry questions about the television itself or the television-making industry.

Speaker 2 If it's questions about what should I watch, is it questions about why do we like this show better than this show, or any of that sort of stuff?

Speaker 2 CR and I are going to be doing little like crossover apps for the two of us. Again, I don't know how regular that is going to be, but it is definitely starting before the new year.

Speaker 2 So, Ringer TV on YouTube is where you will find that particular project.

Speaker 1 Am I allowed to submit questions for that project? Am I allowed to nudge things along to maybe do some gentle prompting to see, like, hey, have you guys watched Culinary Class Wars yet?

Speaker 1 Is that a thing that I'm allowed to do?

Speaker 2 Only if you use a pseudonym, Rob, and I would like them to be increasingly ridiculous. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 Speaking of Rob's suggestion there, Rob and Sierra and I did put an episode up on YouTube, but it's also in the watch feed. Is this in the prestige feed? I should know that.

Speaker 2 You can hear it in podcast form.

Speaker 2 You can also watch it with your eyeballs on the YouTube channel. We did a sort of holiday binge recommendations.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 concierge service.

Speaker 2 Yeah, a little like what to watch when you're at home with the fam based on different situations. So I'm excited about that episode.
We're getting getting some fun feedback on that one. So that's

Speaker 2 what's over on YouTube. You can, if you want to get in on that

Speaker 2 CRNJR mailbag situation, you can email us ringertv at spotify.com. Ringertv at spotify.com is the email for that.
And perhaps other things in the future, but for right now, mailbag questions for

Speaker 2 Chris or your Shuli. And we might pull in other other people from the Ringer Universe to answer those questions.

Speaker 2 And then, Rob, what is happening with our email address?

Speaker 1 I'm so glad you asked, Joe.

Speaker 1 It's been a journey for us going show to show, coming up with new email addresses every time that we then have to check exhaustively because people are emailing them even for other shows as they are trying to get in contact with us about, hey, what's going on with the agency?

Speaker 1 Hey, here are my delayed thoughts on Shogun or whatever.

Speaker 1 We have really streamlined this process for you. We have a new email address for everything, prestigv at spotify.com.

Speaker 2 Do you want to say that again, but like the way that Hubert say it?

Speaker 1 Prestige? Is that how you say it? Prestigv at spotify.com. That's the normal way to say that word.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm really excited

Speaker 2 to have one easy email address for you all to find us. That's not to say we will never make up a goofy email address again, but basically all of those.

Speaker 1 No, I'm done. I'm hanging it up.

Speaker 1 They're retiring our jerseys. We're going off into the sunset.

Speaker 1 There will be no more.

Speaker 2 What if something like John Ham's nipple rings like presents itself to us again?

Speaker 1 Yeah, then I'll be back in. I can be easily dragged back in.
I'm not going to lie to you.

Speaker 2 What if we set up an alternative that's just consume the rangoon at gmail.com?

Speaker 1 Why did we not do that? I don't know.

Speaker 2 I don't know. But all of those various email addresses we made up throughout the year and a half

Speaker 2 are now forwarding to prestige TV at spotify.com. So if you send something to the old addresses, we'll all get it in the same inbox, pressige TV at spotify.com.

Speaker 2 So it's ringertv at spotify.com, pressigv at spotify.com, the ringer TV YouTube channel. I told you there was a lot of business.
I got one more thing to say. Rob,

Speaker 2 what's happening with the agency?

Speaker 1 I'm so glad you asked yet again, Joe. Hey, great.

Speaker 1 The response has been overwhelming.

Speaker 2 Overwhelming.

Speaker 1 So many people people are watching this show. So many people are loving this show.
So many people are clamoring specifically for more Joanna Robinson about this show. And I have great news for you.

Speaker 1 We are going to be covering the agency going forward on a bi-weekly basis. Every other episode, we will do a little lump sum, starting with episodes three and four together.

Speaker 1 I can't wait to dive back in, Joe.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 As we were sort of petitioning the powers that be that we should cover this show a bit more because we are liking it so much.

Speaker 2 You know, Rob pulled up the article from the show. The showtime numbers are good for the show.
People are watching.

Speaker 1 Just bring in the data. That's it.
I'm just, I'm sure it'll be helpful.

Speaker 2 Sean Fantasy interviewed Richard Gere over on the big pic. So that I consider inside of the agency agenda.

Speaker 2 And then we had a lot of recommendations from you all that we should also watch Le Bureau, which we may or may not do at some point.

Speaker 2 But we will be covering the agency going forward.

Speaker 2 You guys

Speaker 2 made yourselves heard and known, and we appreciate you for that.

Speaker 1 And you did it for us, ultimately. Like we, we needed the little boost.
We did. And I'm, I'm just thrilled to be, to be covering it so regularly.

Speaker 2 It's still Megaro season, so let's go. Okay, so that is all the business.
I'm sorry there was so much.

Speaker 2 There will be less in the future, but we just have a bunch of exciting stuff that we're launching here at the end of the year.

Speaker 2 So we are covering Black Doves, the number one TV show on Netflix currently. This is something we had been planning to cover anyway because we love a lot of the people that are involved.

Speaker 2 It looked very fun to us.

Speaker 2 But we are covering all of the episodes in sort of one podcast. So, this is a little like binge check-in on Black Doves.

Speaker 2 As we mentioned, we'll be covering a couple more episodes of the agency before the end of the year. And then we have a little like year-end treat.

Speaker 2 And this is the last bit of business. We hope you guys will help us with our year-end episode that Rob and I have cooked up together, which is part of which will involve what we missed.

Speaker 2 So, once again, you can email us

Speaker 1 prestige TV at spotify.com. It's a very normal pronunciation.
I don't know why you're getting on me about it.

Speaker 2 Prestige TV at Spotify.com.

Speaker 2 And, you know, we just got an email from someone who's like, hey, why aren't you covering Bad Sisters? So, what did we not cover that you loved this year that you want to talk about? Pachinko?

Speaker 2 You know, there's like a bunch of stuff out there I'm sure that we missed.

Speaker 1 Don't seed answers. Like, I want to know what they think.

Speaker 2 Okay. I'm done talking about Apple TV Plus shows.
Anything else that doesn't just have to have aired on Apple

Speaker 2 that you want to tell us that we missed, that you think that we would like, that you think the listeners should check out,

Speaker 2 pressgtv at spotify.com. That will be part of a year-end episode that we're going to do that'll have some other stuff that we're cooking up as well.

Speaker 2 So we hope that you will send us those, I don't know, suggestions, recommendations, lamentations, however you want to put it.

Speaker 2 Did I do all the business? I think I did, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, there's just the most important piece of business left, which is diving exhaustively into this six episode mini-series of Black Doves.

Speaker 2 Let's start with our big picture, like overall impressions. Rob Mahoney,

Speaker 2 did you enjoy your binge through Black Doves?

Speaker 1 I sure did, Joe. Yeah.
I sure did.

Speaker 1 It felt very familiar to me in tone. Like this feels very...
diplomat adjacent, which I mean as a compliment.

Speaker 2 It's the number one thing I wrote here.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 It wants to be a page turner more than anything else. And it absolutely is.
Like you will rip through this show.

Speaker 1 You're going to get your espionage, but it's going to be a little goofier and a little breezier and maybe a bit broad and a bit convenient at some times, like as the plot is kind of unraveling, but literally none of that will stop it from being fun.

Speaker 1 It's, it's a great ride.

Speaker 2 I think I thought of the Diplomat immediately because

Speaker 2 basically what I think both the Diplomat and Black Doves are are somewhat dumber versions of like incredibly and and i say that with love i had a great time and i have no issue with some of the dumbness that exists in in black doves i have some issue with some of the dumbness okay fair enough um but it is fun

Speaker 2 uh chief among uh anything else it is fun

Speaker 2 and so if you're looking for you know and this is a case where i don't mind that this is a binge i often i often get cranky about a binge but i'm just sort of like

Speaker 2 you don't need a week to think about what you just saw in black doves you just need to watch the next one, and that's all you need to do.

Speaker 2 Um, and so both the Diplomat and Black Doves feel like slightly dumber versions of like better shows we've seen over the years, uh, more serious shows that we've seen over the years.

Speaker 2 But nonetheless, they've recruited top-tier talent, you know, like Kerry Russell over on the Diplomat, or we've got freaking Kieran Knightley and Ben Wishaw chopping it up here on Black Doves.

Speaker 2 And so it's just like, it's a true, it's the real sweet spot. It's what I think Netflix maybe should be doing in this sort of binge world that it exists in, because, like,

Speaker 2 I don't want them to waste terribly dense and chewy shows in a binge environment. I don't think that's where those kinds of show exists, shows exist.

Speaker 2 Alternatively, there's a lot of stuff on Netflix that's just like too dumb to live. Like, I just can't, I can't deal with it.
And this is just like the perfect sweet spot. I was talking to

Speaker 2 CR's, CR Chris Ryan, loved this show. Obviously, he's talked about it over the watch.

Speaker 2 I was talking to his lovely wife, Phoebe, about this, and I was like, I think I was paying too much attention to black doves, is the problem because there's like a lot of flashbacks, a lot of exposition, a lot of reiterating character names.

Speaker 2 And I was like, oh, they're doing this so that if you're second screening this, you're not going to get lost because they're just going to show you the same flashback of Ben Wishaw deciding not to shoot a kid in the back of a car.

Speaker 1 How many times can someone almost shoot a kid?

Speaker 1 200 times, just in case you're looking down at your phone or you went to like go make a sandwich or or went to the bathroom and so i was like okay it's like a second screen uh confection for the holidays from netflix who says no you know and i think that last part is is really operative here where netflix clearly has a huge christmas content engine at its disposal yeah uh this is a bit of counter programming from you know the the other christmas fare you may find on on that particular streaming service or that particular um i would say the stuff that's being covered more generally like we were talking about the work that uh jodi Walker's doing here at The Ringer with Binge Miss.

Speaker 1 Fewer Vanessa Hudgens's, fewer Lindsey Lohans.

Speaker 2 Dare I say zero Hudgenses.

Speaker 1 That's a spoiler. I'm not going to say that.

Speaker 1 But still incredibly festive. Like this wants to be a Christmas show.

Speaker 1 And it wants to be a Christmas show in a way that, to your point about how bingeable this is and the fact that you can just rip through it so easily, it takes place in a pretty confined time period.

Speaker 1 It has a natural momentum. It has a certain holiday spirit.
Like,

Speaker 1 granted, like using Fairy Tale of New York is literally cheating,

Speaker 1 but it also works every single time. And it is a perfect holiday watch for that reason.

Speaker 1 Like, it has all of the accoutrement of being a Christmas thing, including some of the spirit of Christmas, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 In case it isn't clear, because I feel like I do say it to you all the time, Rob, I love podcasting with you. And I love that these were my first four bullet points, my notes.
Diplomat. Yep.

Speaker 2 Slow horses/slash alias, Shane Black.

Speaker 2 Fairy tale of New York pubsing along the mode.

Speaker 1 Shane Black.

Speaker 2 So let's talk about Shane Black. So this is, this is, as you say, this is a Christmas show

Speaker 2 with a lot of violence and blood spatter

Speaker 2 and recreational drug use and this, that, and the other thing.

Speaker 2 Shane Black, I think, really mastered the art of this contrast in his filmography.

Speaker 2 If you are unfamiliar, we're talking about things like Lethal Weapon, The Long Kiss, Good Night, Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang, Iron Man 3, if you prefer, and the epilogue of the nice guys.

Speaker 2 So this is like

Speaker 2 something that he has done really well. A lot of times he does like LA Christmas, which is its own sort of,

Speaker 1 you know, dystopian aspect to it.

Speaker 2 This is London. This is proper London Christmas.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 we are taking love actually and putting it through the meat grinder. And hey, we got Kara Knightley here to do it with you.

Speaker 2 I love this as someone who felt themselves getting actively

Speaker 2 dumber and morally degraded watching Hot Frosty and Merri Gentleman, which I did do in a double feature with some friends and a lot of adult beverages last weekend. I do appreciate that

Speaker 2 this exists as another option.

Speaker 1 Well, it has some of the Shane Black charm too, not just in like a great sense of humor and the the banter, um, overall, like, the kind of Christmas

Speaker 1 backdrop in some of these things, and the way that kind of not drives the action, but I think sets an overall tone, and that it doesn't shy away from being violent when it's time to be violent.

Speaker 1 Like, I think the violence in this show is really good and really surprising at some points.

Speaker 1 And I think plays really well for shock and awe, but also for plot reasons, and also just to make it feel a little edgier than just like we're all gathering around the Christmas tree.

Speaker 1 It needs, it needs some of that danger if we're also going to be, you know, wrapping presents and making, is it a figgy? Is it figgy pudding they're making? What is it that they're making?

Speaker 2 We're making figgy pudding. We're cloving oranges.

Speaker 2 We're making homemade decorations. We're just, we're doing it all.

Speaker 1 We're doing

Speaker 2 doing a London Christmas. I used to,

Speaker 2 this is going to sound quite douchey and I apologize in advance. I used to go to London at Christmas time quite often.
And

Speaker 1 why is that douchey? It's one of the premier Christmas destinations in the world. It sounds very

Speaker 1 anyway.

Speaker 2 Uh, it's the best place to be at Christmas. Like, it genuinely is.
There's like there's spiced wine on uh steaming on like nearly every street corner.

Speaker 2 It's just like you know, we I'm from California, so having actual snow and around Christmas is such a delightful novelty. There's walking Christmas marts down like on the south bank.

Speaker 2 It's just like Christmas in London is just like a different level altogether. And I

Speaker 2 genuinely started looking at flights to London.

Speaker 1 I was like, it's too late. Can I go? Can I go?

Speaker 2 All right. So you mentioned the violence.
Violence is good. We love the violence in the show, and we do.
Sure. Do you have a favorite kill

Speaker 2 from these episodes?

Speaker 1 There's only one answer, right?

Speaker 1 It is the biggest. It is the showiest.
To paraphrase from the show, a moment when Sam cranially readjusts somebody with a shotgun.

Speaker 1 I just want to say rest in peace to Kent. Rest in peaces to Kent, who ends up splattered all over Williams and Helen and Jason's wall.

Speaker 1 We hardly knew you, but I really appreciated the way that she went out. All right.

Speaker 2 I agree. It has to be Kent.

Speaker 2 We get not only the

Speaker 2 incredible blood splatter, that real estate.

Speaker 1 The real splash zone stuff.

Speaker 2 The real, yeah, the real, real watermelon of the Gallagher show situation, like really introduces us to what this show is going to be. We get it.

Speaker 2 It comes about halfway through the first episode, so you don't have to wait for it.

Speaker 2 And we get that, and then we get it followed by just like a perfectly Wishawian, insucient, hello, darling.

Speaker 1 Like after that, you're just like, we're off to the what more could I want?

Speaker 2 Honestly, genuinely, than to have England's rose herself, Kira Knightley, dripping in blood and Ben Wishaw being dashing.

Speaker 1 Did I melt every time Ben Wishaw says the word darling? Yes, I did.

Speaker 1 I cannot help it. I think it's a normal chemical response.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You're merely human, Rob.

Speaker 1 This is all I'm saying.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's very important. Okay, do you want to do your top five favorite performances in the show ranked?

Speaker 1 This is a great segue because Ben Wishaw is number one with a bullet.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. Without question.

Speaker 1 He can be a sad boy. He can be a trigger man.
He can be the single most charming person on television whenever he wants to be. Correct.
He steals this entire show. I think he's wonderful in it.

Speaker 2 He looks great in a suit. He looks great in a motorcycle helmet.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 2 and then, yeah, just he can tumble the hair forward.

Speaker 2 He can be in a tank top. He can do whatever he needs to do.
It's Ben Wishaw.

Speaker 2 Ben Wishaw

Speaker 2 is like my number one favorite of all time ever. And I don't know that you and I have ever talked about it.

Speaker 1 We have not. That is.

Speaker 1 Take me through how did this happen

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 1 i i couldn't tell you exactly

Speaker 2 um it just came upon no but it is true ben wisha is is uh i think it's because no one is better at i mean the hair is it's like a it's like a

Speaker 2 oil wave of

Speaker 2 delight. It's just wonderful.

Speaker 1 But the fact that Sam was in Michael's phone as sexy pub man, good hair, is an incredible pit.

Speaker 2 Speaks for all of us.

Speaker 2 I think it's that no one is better at making me cry than Ben Wishaw.

Speaker 2 He does it in almost anything. He did it in like Mary Poppins' returns.

Speaker 2 Like he, no matter what the assignment, be it Paddington or anything else, maybe not Perfume, the one where he plays like a creepy serial killer, but most things, Ben Wishaw has made me cry.

Speaker 2 And I think that's something that I just really enjoy.

Speaker 2 He is so good at it, and he did. I think he did it in Black Death.

Speaker 2 You know, there's like moments when he's sort of, Sam is stoically processing the cost of the life he has chosen when it comes to his relationship with Michael. And that, yeah, it got to me.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 And like, there's choices that he makes of like hesitating, leaving, coming back, like, you know, these, these various moments that feel so human and real and like beyond what's written on the page.

Speaker 2 I just think he's tremendous.

Speaker 1 And a lot of those moments, too, in terms of Sam as a character, make Sam less good at his job.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of like trepidation. There's a lot of Sam trying to lie when it's very clear that he's not telling the truth.
Like there's

Speaker 1 having Ben Wishaw in this part allows Sam to be both very cool and sometimes like super naive in a way that I think is really hard to balance in a show like this and in a part like this and in a story like this.

Speaker 1 And this is why you bring in someone like Ben Wishaw to do it.

Speaker 2 Papa Esedu, who's been in the news recently for Harry Potter reasons, unfortunately, but like, uh,

Speaker 2 plays the, you know, the assassin Elmore Fitch. And he has a moment when he's in Kira Knightley's house where she says, you're going to regret, you know, that murder.

Speaker 2 And he's like, I regret every single one. You know what I mean? He has like this like oddly profound emotional line out of nowhere.
And I wrote in my notes prequel for Elmore Fitch.

Speaker 1 I would watch it. Black Doves colon, the Fitch years,

Speaker 2 I would watch it.

Speaker 1 He also gets a lot of like ominous cooking in the way that lots of people do in this show.

Speaker 1 The number of characters in Black Doves who get to say some version of, if I'm right about this, you're going to wish you were already dead.

Speaker 1 Like everyone says a version of that at some point to Kira Knightley. It's wonderful.

Speaker 1 That's the kind of pastiche I can appreciate.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this show is so good. Okay.
No, who is your number two on the performance list? Number one is Ben.

Speaker 1 who's near number two number two also not a hard call for me i'm gonna be honest with you ella lily highland who plays williams in this show i i think just like forces her way into being basically a third star like it's clear that this is constructed to be a two-hander I don't want to disparage Kira Naley.

Speaker 1 She'll be coming up on my list very shortly.

Speaker 1 But the extremely Gen Z-coded disaffected Trigger Man, which we learned is a gender-neutral term. I'm thankful for that for Black Doves.

Speaker 1 One of one. Like, I've never seen a character quite like this.
And this is a show that, as we've kind of alluded to, deserves to have the piss taken out of it sometimes.

Speaker 1 And she is there to do it basically at every turn. I loved every second she was on screen.

Speaker 2 She's my number three. She's wonderful.
And, like, to your point, like, this is it's a two-hander, or

Speaker 2 you know, if you, if you look at sort of starring versus guest,

Speaker 2 it's Ben Wishock, Kira Knightley, and Sarah Lancasher, who plays Reed, who like their handler. Like, those are supposed to be sort of like the three main stars.
You can make,

Speaker 2 you your arguments for Andrew Booken, or like there's like other people that you can argue. But I do think that by sheer force of will and charisma for days,

Speaker 2 Williams

Speaker 2 comes in number three, and sort of the characters we like to watch on this show when she's in peril.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm like, no, I need her.

Speaker 1 I need her to stick around. She has to survive.
She has to survive.

Speaker 2 I need her voice on the show. So she's my number three, but Kira's my number two.
And I think because

Speaker 2 Kira,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 1 has been not like gone, but a little bit gone for a while. What was the last thing you have seen her in? Because I was thinking about this.

Speaker 1 I genuinely don't think I've seen anything she's done for about a decade because, with all due respect, like I was not waiting with bated breath for Boston Strangler.

Speaker 2 I was going to say the Boston Strangler movie.

Speaker 1 No, I did not want to. I don't like that.
It's okay.

Speaker 2 Does Red Nose Day actually count the little

Speaker 1 thing that they did?

Speaker 2 Not as the voice of Tinkerbell in Neverland. I didn't even see her, Dr.
Javago. I feel very bad about it.
So that means film. It might be

Speaker 2 Colette, 2018. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So yeah. So she feels like she's been gone, even though she's been working here and there.
She's not been working in anything that feels like maybe worthy of her.

Speaker 2 No, I saw Misbehavior. Misbehavior was quite good,

Speaker 2 though she wasn't like the main part of that. But that was 2020.
But still, to your point.

Speaker 1 Take it.

Speaker 2 Gone, but not gone. Gone, certainly but never forgotten.
The nostalgia, I think, is like kicking around for Kira. Like, even though she hasn't really gone away, the rewatchability of love actually,

Speaker 2 pride and prejudice, and powers of the Caribbean mean that like people are always thinking about Kira Knightley in one way or another.

Speaker 2 And if she like went away, she's got a five-year-old and a nine-year-old. She's been like raising her kids a bit and all that sort of stuff like that.
It's just sort of like, where's Kira?

Speaker 2 We want to see her. And I'm thrilled to see her do exactly this.
She is like having so much fun.

Speaker 2 She and she and Ben Wishaw are such like

Speaker 2 absolute

Speaker 2 aces. So to watch them share many scenes together, I would just watch them do like target practice.

Speaker 1 Oh, completely together. And then throwing knives under the turnpike was just like, this is great television.

Speaker 2 Wonderful. Wonderful stuff.

Speaker 2 All right. So that's my two and three.
What's your number three?

Speaker 1 My three is Kira too. Yeah.
I mean, like, I think what came to mind for me in watching her in this show is like, this is just star shit.

Speaker 1 And you see big movie stars come to TV sometimes or come to streaming platforms and they do a version of what they do and they do it well enough and people come and watch and that's great.

Speaker 1 And then there are people like Kira Knightley and Black Doves who it's just like, she's holding this thing together.

Speaker 1 She is propping up these huge exposition dumps that, as you said, are repeated multiple times to make sure that you get them. And she makes it all work and makes it feel fun to watch.

Speaker 1 And I agree with you. Like her dynamic, specifically, like the Sam Helen dynamic is so delightful.
And it's really the only time those characters have to be like honest with the people around them.

Speaker 1 And from that, you have this dangerous spy show, all of these convoluted plots, some of which work, some of which don't. And you get this like...

Speaker 1 bit of warmth in the middle of it with these people who I like they're not letting each other off the hook. They will be critical of each other.

Speaker 1 They will poke and prod, but there is a warmth and an understanding there that I think makes the show feel pretty distinct.

Speaker 2 The way that he shows up, like, you know, he comes back after all these years gone because he was told she was in trouble, or the way that she shows up heavily pregnant

Speaker 2 and, you know, just basically tosses her escape plan out the window for him. because she got to save him and not just him, but got to save the man that he loves.
Like,

Speaker 2 that is so

Speaker 1 meaningful inside of quite a silly show.

Speaker 2 So, uh, yeah, the two of them together. All right, who is your number four?

Speaker 1 My number four,

Speaker 1 I started to dwell on this, and then I realized that the answer was right in front of me.

Speaker 1 And it's Gabrielle Creevy as Eleanor stole my number four spot because she steals a lot of the scene she's in and frankly just gets all of the best lines as far as I'm concerned in this show.

Speaker 1 Tinker Taylor Soldier Twat made me just about fall off my couch. Hold on, dear fannies it's go bang time like there

Speaker 1 there's just like one or two of those zingers for her every single episode yeah um i i wanted more from her and yeah if we have the future of of uh multiple seasons of the show which it sounds like a lot of people involved are basically planning for and penciling in yeah Eleanor and characters like that are part of the reason why.

Speaker 1 Like you're building out a broader world here in the sort of like London underground criminal network. And, you know, there is the part of that where they just get to be like funny and crass.

Speaker 1 And then there is the part of that where, as you said, like there is a warmth and a messaging about like having each other's backs and kind of a collaborative spirit.

Speaker 1 Like this is a Christmas show inside of a spy show. And I think her kind of inclusion in that, while getting to be very funny, is also being like kind of vulnerable and finding her place.

Speaker 1 And I just loved the time we spent with that character.

Speaker 2 I got to say that Eleanor and Williams, in a show where Ben Wishaw is here, for them to make such a memorable hair impression on me,

Speaker 1 excellent bang work from both of them.

Speaker 2 Williams, especially, of course, but like really good bangs on both of those women. I loved them together.

Speaker 2 My number four is Catherine Hunter as Lenny Lynes.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 Lenny Lynes, as like, I don't know, the kind of character that you might see, like, oh, Michael Keaton, like, it's just like a real cockney,

Speaker 2 you know, occasionally track suit wearing, like cigar smoking. Sort of, I don't want to fuck with this person.

Speaker 1 Does not want your Brita filter. Yeah.
Don't even bother.

Speaker 2 Scary, like kind of stepped out of a Guy Richie movie, but is like here, definitely in this tone.

Speaker 1 Catherine Hunter

Speaker 2 steals everything she's ever in.

Speaker 2 This is just what she does, whether it's an Andor

Speaker 2 or Poor Things or the Tragedy of Macbeth. You know, like she's just

Speaker 2 so compelling, mesmerizing.

Speaker 1 And I just, I, how do you, can you, can you locate that?

Speaker 1 Because I feel like I want to say like 70% of it is her voice is so distinct and the kind of like the command that her voice puts on a scene is so singular that like I just want to watch her do stuff and give these huge speeches speeches and issue threats.

Speaker 1 Like I, I'm always trying to figure out what it is that she's doing, but I always want to watch her.

Speaker 2 But it's also her face, like, you know, because she has like quite the unusual face.

Speaker 2 And like, especially in Macbeth, like the physicality that goes along with that role, but there's just like you know she's just strange she's a strange figure and um which is not to say she doesn't have range because I think there's there's such a difference between what she's doing in and or and what she's doing here um so she has range but inside of that range there is a sort of Ruth Gordon strangeness to her that just like what what are you gonna what are you gonna do next and I'm scared of you um and it's uh it's great I think the strangeness works really well too and plays with this idea of like, we are so far removed from some of the grounds that we've been talking about on other shows, Joe, which is like very much more like MI5 or CIA.

Speaker 1 Like, this is private sector, and everything is a little weird, and everything is a little off. And there's, you know, the own their own sets of rules.

Speaker 1 And I love that we're like going to a guitar shop to stock up on guns and like stopping by the makeup counter to get this like bullet fingerprinted in a way that also feels very Christmas shopping to me.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And,

Speaker 1 but feels very

Speaker 1 boutique. Like all of these people are like getting by on their own by their own set of rules and their own codes.
And some of them make sense and some of them don't.

Speaker 1 And some of them are getting people killed. But like Lenny Lyons to me almost epitomizes that sort of world building.

Speaker 2 I love that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the like. The guitar shopping,

Speaker 2 that all felt a little like John Wickian. You know what I mean? We're not like quite on that level, but we're flirting with this idea of this almost supernatural assassin situation.
But I loved it.

Speaker 2 Okay. Number five.
Last but not least, you're number five.

Speaker 1 I went with somebody who has a pretty confined role on the show, but knew the assignment, and that's Andrew Koji as Jason.

Speaker 2 Oh, interesting. That one didn't really work for me.
Tell me why it tell me why it worked for you.

Speaker 1 I mean, I get the like smoky, mysterious, like he's there to be hot and he's there to be appealing and he's there to be dangerous. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And he's also basically doing the equivalent of like the dead wife in a billowing dress on the beach like footage while the hero looks back on.

Speaker 2 Have I talked to to you about my phrase for this? I know I've talked about it. What is it? I know I've talked about it on House of R and Trial by content.

Speaker 2 It's something that my friends and I came up with.

Speaker 2 So forgive me, listeners, if you heard it before, but some of my friends and I came up during the pandemic while we were watching a bunch of really bad movies, one of which was Time Cop.

Speaker 2 And there's a moment in Time Cop where he's like staring at this photo, and it's like him and his wife and his dog. And my friend said, oh, it's his dead dog wife.

Speaker 2 Because we weren't sure like who had died and what he was sad about. So anytime you see this, and it doesn't have to be a wife, though it usually is, but I'm like, oh, it's his dead dog wife.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, he's dead dog wifing his way through most of this movie.

Speaker 1 I think Andrew Koji gives great dead dog wife as far as I'm concerned.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's not given a ton to do, but I think the mystery of Helen's personal stake in the story sort of hangs on him being a mysterious enough figure.

Speaker 1 And I think, I think he conveys that really well. I think he's giving you just enough, but not enough to kind of keep coming back and wanting more threads of that story.

Speaker 1 And as we've alluded to, let me tell you, the show will tell you over and over and over exactly what their conversations were like.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 he has to have the performance style and the characterization and overall, like the look that can carry that sort of repetition. And I actually think he does very well.

Speaker 2 I'm doing a House of R classic smuggle on the number five slot. I will say, if I only have to pick one.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You do. Like, you created this prompt.
So you kind of do. I don't.

Speaker 2 It's the queen of wigs and accents herself, Tracy Ullman, who shows up literally just at the end of the series, but knows exactly what she's doing. It's

Speaker 2 in a show that has Catherine Hunter in it. This is somehow the campiest thing that happens is when Tracy Ullman shows up as a crime, the head of the crime family that has infiltrated everywhere.

Speaker 2 So that was really fun. Like here at the end of all things, you get Tracy Ullman is a treat.

Speaker 2 So enjoy that. But also, Sarah Lancasher, who plays Reed, who is the third lead of the show, speaking of Wigwork,

Speaker 2 who is so good in Happy Valley, or anything else that she's ever done is just like a real, you know, essentially doing Margot Martindale and the Americans

Speaker 2 is wonderful here.

Speaker 2 And then I already mentioned him, but Andrew, is it like Buchan Buchan? I don't know how to say his last name, but. Yeah,

Speaker 2 I believe it's Buchanan. Buchan, that makes more sense than me trying to tortuously make it something something else.
As Wallace Webb,

Speaker 2 the reason I don't know how to pronounce this actor's last name is because I always just call him Mark Latimer, which is his character's name from Broadchurch.

Speaker 2 But I was like, Mark Latimer, what are you doing here? And he's better than he needs to be, I think, in this.

Speaker 2 And that is usually what he does when he shows up in a number of things that I've seen him, even though I still call him Mark Latimer. But that is my cheat.
for level five.

Speaker 1 Well, it's another one of those characters and performances that is like speaking sequel.

Speaker 1 It's a lot of like, oh, this guy's going to be the PM in season two, as they as they allude to, pretty like heavy-handedly, I would say, over the back of the show.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, like setting all of this groundwork now,

Speaker 1 as you said, like, is a better performance than it needs to be. And I think, in some ways, a more interesting character than it needs to be to service the plot at times.

Speaker 1 Like, I wasn't upset with what he brought to the table at all. I agree.
It's worthy of note. I actually, for whatever reason, like Sarah Lankasher didn't work for me as well.

Speaker 2 That's why she's low for me. Like

Speaker 2 I should have her in the three spot or something like that. But like I think she's always good, but I think that character is used oddly.

Speaker 2 I thought the final scene, I think the final scene with them in the church in the bleak midwinter, again, she's burdened with a lot of exposition

Speaker 2 in that conversation, but there's something about

Speaker 2 the way it's all put together. I was sort of like under the spell of that scene, even as I was sort of like, okay,

Speaker 1 a lot of exposition.

Speaker 2 So it's like sort of her job in the show, and it's a thankless job. So, yeah.

Speaker 1 It is a little thankless. And I think that character overall is a little,

Speaker 1 based on a TV watching perspective, like a little too scrutable. Like, it's a little too clear too quickly that it's like, why would you literally ever trust this person?

Speaker 1 It's, it's so obvious, it seems, that she has like her hands manipulating these different pieces on the board.

Speaker 1 Um, in a way that, like, I just like was left wanting, or I was like, waiting for like, what is the twist with her? What is the actual mystery?

Speaker 1 Because everything just seemed to kind of be right there on the page and right there on her face. And I, that last scene is confounding.

Speaker 1 Like, this is, this show is a plot engine and it's just going and going and going and going. And then we're going to screech to a halt.

Speaker 1 And I'm just going to give you like a seven-minute explainer on Jason.

Speaker 2 I tried to add to me not caring very much about Jason, but

Speaker 2 uh but I do care about Helen. Um I was trying anyway.
This is this is our note for season two. Uh you could trust the audience a little bit more.
I just

Speaker 2 as much more on all in that like web though, I will say, um, Agnes O'Casey, who plays Danny, who is the younger black dove sort of set in to be the replacement for

Speaker 2 Helen, should she decide to peace out or something like that, was really fun.

Speaker 2 Um, she played a similar character in a mini-series I watched called Ridley Road, in that she was trying to sort of like infiltrate and seduce a man in power and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 But she added a homicidal like gleam

Speaker 2 to her eye, this little sicko,

Speaker 2 this cute as a button little sicko and like all of her machinations.

Speaker 2 And even though Helen clocks her right away and, you know, we're all probably cheering a bit when Ellen completely beats the shit out of her and nearly kills her in the jewelry shop.

Speaker 2 But I found their inner, they're like absolutely smiling, menacing interactions the couple times that they have them in public to be really, really fun.

Speaker 1 So, I also think for everything we're saying about the show that's like a little bit silly or a little bit broad, playing spy paranoia as a stand-in for like the other woman, my husband's secretary or my husband's assistant paranoia is just like a really smart doubling.

Speaker 1 And overall, like I have her just written down as Danny Winkyface in my notes over and over because that's what she was in his phone.

Speaker 1 There's like the little details that I think make that, as you said, the homicidal streak included, just really work.

Speaker 2 When she's like, like your socks, she's like, oh, it's a little office inside joke. I was like, wow, I hate you so much.
You're one of those things.

Speaker 1 You wouldn't get it. Don't worry about it.

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Speaker 2 We mentioned this is a proper London Christmas. Kira Knightley is here.
Every single interview I've seen her give for this show, someone has asked her about Love Actually.

Speaker 2 Sort of disappoint, like to the point where I'm like watching her smile get tighter and tighter on her face as people bring up Love Actually.

Speaker 2 Um, I just thought I've never, I don't think I've talked to you about Love Actually, a controversial um

Speaker 2 yet often beloved film.

Speaker 2 Rob, where are you on Love Actually?

Speaker 1 Um, my experience talking about Love Actually might mirror Kira's

Speaker 1 pretty closely, which is to say, you know what, I'm happy for anyone who wants to hold this movie very closely. It is not for me, all caps, not for me, period.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I've seen this movie so many times and I used to, I used to really like it.

Speaker 2 Or I used to really like certain storylines in it. And then just sort of like increasingly as it became my job to examine story, as

Speaker 2 the revelation that a lot of people have had where they're like, oh, hmm,

Speaker 2 Kieranaly was how old when she made this movie? Or

Speaker 1 what?

Speaker 2 What is Andrew Lincoln doing with those cue cards on Christmas? What do you mean you tell the truth on Christmas? Anyway, so the point is, can I quote all of love actually?

Speaker 1 Probably. Okay.

Speaker 2 Are there things

Speaker 2 that I

Speaker 2 like?

Speaker 2 Yeah, the kid running through the airport, breaking all TSA rules just because he thinks that girl from America is so cute.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there are things that I like. Do I like Leah Meeson saying we need Kate, we need Leo, we need them right now?

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 do I like watching, not like, but do I respect watching Emma Thompson cry her eyes out to Joni Mitchell, unlike anyone else? Yes.

Speaker 2 But do I think, and have I always thought that Colin Firth is an absolute like weirdo creep in this movie?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Because he's declaring his love without ever having had a conversation with a woman. Like all this sort of stuff.
So

Speaker 2 Martin Freeman, Innocent, that storyline, innocent. I like that one.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 And I would say that the Hugh Grant, like Martin McCutcheon one is probably the most like by the book rom-comie in a way that I don't find objectionable in the way that I find most of the other ones, like outright objectionable.

Speaker 1 I just think at this point, like is it a nature violation, though? Maybe.

Speaker 1 Richard Curtis is a weird dude. And I have a hard time getting on the wavelength of what he considers to be romantic.
I think

Speaker 2 it's increasingly weirdo. Weirder is my thing.
But you like Notting Hill. You brought that up in the 99

Speaker 1 photograph. Okay.
I do. But like,

Speaker 1 if you watch About Time and don't see the problem, I don't know what to tell you.

Speaker 2 You and I are on the same page about that one. I think his best

Speaker 2 is Four Weddings and a Funeral. His best and least problematic is Four Weddings and a Funeral.
Love Actually, if you enjoy it, I love that for you and I respect it.

Speaker 2 Do I sometimes say things like eight is a lot of legs, David, which is a life of love actually, that doesn't really matter? Yes.

Speaker 2 But can I condone it as a comfort rewatch at Christmas? I personally wouldn't pick it.

Speaker 1 But I will give the show a lot of credit. The characters literally do list off their favorite Christmas movies, and no one mentions love, actually, which

Speaker 1 it just would have been too cute.

Speaker 2 Did you write down what they said?

Speaker 1 I did. So

Speaker 1 Kaiming picked the Santa Claus,

Speaker 1 which I had to be reminded of the exact plot of the Santa Claus recently. I forgot that he died.

Speaker 2 That Santa dies.

Speaker 1 That Santa literally dies.

Speaker 2 Tim the Toolman tailor becomes Santa.

Speaker 1 I had in my memory, oh, like Santa is sick. Santa got knocked out.
Santa got kicked by a reindeer. He needed a break.
And there's some legalese that leads to Tim Allen being Santa. No, Santa is dead.

Speaker 1 Tim Allen is your Santa now.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sam picked the holiday, very on point.

Speaker 1 Half of a good movie, if that.

Speaker 1 I don't think any more needs to be said about that. Yeah.
We don't, Eleanor is in the room. I would have loved to hear her pick, but we don't get it.

Speaker 1 I was, she seems like a happiest season sort to me personally. Maybe also Die Hard, maybe a double feature.
These are the multitudes that Eleanor contains.

Speaker 2 On the tonight show for the record, Kira said diehard was her favorite Christmas movie.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's a banger. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay. What's your holiday comfort watch, Rob Mahoney?

Speaker 1 This came up for us recently, Joe. For me, it is Muppet Christmas Carol.

Speaker 1 Has to happen every year.

Speaker 2 I really feel like I betrayed you multiple times on that podcast that's not been released to the public yet.

Speaker 1 You betray me multiple times on most podcasts. You're just constantly throwing me under the bus.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 No. But here's one that I think we can come together on, which is this this is not a Christmas movie, but has become a Christmas tradition in the Mahoney household.

Speaker 1 My mom is a huge Lord of the Rings head. We're just running through those kind of all throughout the season.
And so that has become a comfort watch around the holidays.

Speaker 2 In the spirit of Christmas, I won't have our usual fight about Lord of the Rings. And I will just say, yes, in common cause, we can join hands around Lord of the Rings.

Speaker 1 We can hold hands and we can watch the true theatrical versions of Lord of the Rings.

Speaker 2 I will add to that, and I already did my watch while decorating the Christmas tree this year. It's a Wonderful Life

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 maybe a basic bitch answer, but I was trying to talk to my nephews about it over the weekend and they were like, we don't like that movie. And I was like, tell me, okay.

Speaker 2 We watch a lot of old movies, though.

Speaker 1 How old are your nephews?

Speaker 2 It's nearly 13 and then

Speaker 2 nine.

Speaker 2 And I was like, tell me about

Speaker 2 Tell me about why you don't like that movie.

Speaker 1 Explain yourselves.

Speaker 2 No, I was just curious because I was talking to someone else, and they were like, that movie's depressing. And I was like,

Speaker 2 well,

Speaker 2 I don't, I don't know that I could, I was like, no, I find it uplift. Okay, I hear what you're saying.

Speaker 1 Bittersweet.

Speaker 2 The boys couldn't. Yeah, Bittersweet.
There you go. The boys couldn't quite put their finger on it, but we will continue to interrogate

Speaker 2 their opinions on that. Okay.

Speaker 2 We wanted to play around, a quick round of the Robert Downey Jr. game with Kieran Knightley and Ben Michon.
If you didn't listen to a previous episode where I explained what this was, basically,

Speaker 2 you pick an actor and you

Speaker 2 say, either the it's it's a loose definition, but it's like, what is the movie for you personally?

Speaker 2 What is the movie that you associate with this person? Maybe it's the first movie that you really paid attention to them in, maybe it's the movie you most re-watch with them in.

Speaker 2 Maybe it's the movie you think that they're their most selves in.

Speaker 2 I have a cheat hack on this one.

Speaker 1 Do you?

Speaker 2 Well, I have a cheat hack guess on this one for you, Rob, which is, is it not for Kira?

Speaker 2 Is it not atonement?

Speaker 1 It is atonement. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 This is a cheat attic because we were talking about Joe Wright movies recently, and you said that atonement was, you know, high on your list.

Speaker 1 Can I guess your Kira? I'm assuming yours is not atonement.

Speaker 2 It's not atonement. Yes, of course, please.

Speaker 1 I believe that your Kira pick is Pride and Prejudice.

Speaker 2 It's not. And that's a really good guess, though.
It's a really, really good guess.

Speaker 1 My guess was that you are a Firth First.

Speaker 2 I am a Firth First.

Speaker 1 So I thought you might be drawn in that direction, but would have a begrudging respect for the McFadden portrayal. I do.

Speaker 1 And Kira by association and that product by association. But so if not Pride and Prejudice, then what is your first Kira Knightley association?

Speaker 2 It's Ben Elikbeck.

Speaker 1 Of course it is. Sorry.

Speaker 1 Why did I dig so deep? See, this is what's concerning to me is I was feeling really confident about Pride and Prejudice.

Speaker 1 I do not have a good read on what your ben wishaw association would be especially knowing now that he is dismeaningful to you that he is one of your guys i will say i like sort of held back a little bit on my answer about why he's one of my guys because i didn't want to give you necessarily too much information for ben wisha on this game wow okay um

Speaker 2 i i think here's what i'll say about pride and pride prejudice was an inc

Speaker 2 like an incredible guess and i think most people would guess pride and prejudice for me i just have such

Speaker 2 a grudge against that movie, swallowing the legacy that is the first version.

Speaker 1 So, begrudging respect is out, it's just hatred at this point.

Speaker 2 It's, I Joe Wright's doing a lot of great stuff in that movie, it's just like not nearly as good as the first version.

Speaker 2 Then, like, a whole generation of people have forgotten that the first version even exists.

Speaker 1 So, that's true. That's where we are.

Speaker 2 Uh, all right, Ben Wisha. Ben Wisha, for you,

Speaker 2 um,

Speaker 2 uh, this is, oh, this is such a good question. I don't feel like I know.
You surprise me sometimes with your like

Speaker 2 your familiarity with like literary classes. Well, I mean, like,

Speaker 2 is it

Speaker 2 just Paddington?

Speaker 1 It is not Paddington.

Speaker 1 For me, like, when I conjure him in my head, I think Q is. I was going to say, I almost guessed Vaughn.

Speaker 2 I almost guessed Monde.

Speaker 1 Okay. I wish it wasn't that easy.
And honestly, when I was thinking about it, the first time I actually saw him was in I'm Not There.

Speaker 1 The problem is he's almost so

Speaker 1 not recognizable as Ben Wishaw in that role that it's hard to pinpoint that as being like, oh, this is the defining visual I have of this person or memory I have of this person.

Speaker 1 But yeah, it's going Skyfall.

Speaker 2 We're going like

Speaker 1 on the bench in the museum, maybe.

Speaker 1 I am a basic bitch in this

Speaker 1 way. It is Skyfall.

Speaker 2 I mean, I really almost picked Skyfall. I really, really did.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm all kinds of twisted up about what to guess for you here.

Speaker 2 It's not an easy answer, honestly.

Speaker 2 Sometimes in this game, you kind of want to change your answer to something that people could reasonably guess because it's not that fun if you have one that's like, you know,

Speaker 2 like I think Beta like Beckham is not outside of the realm of guessing, but this one's a little, this one's tricky.

Speaker 1 I would, I would say arguably like her breakout, like her first proper breakout. Correct.

Speaker 1 I think for you, it's going to be something where you're digging pretty deep. It's not going to be Wishaw right on the surface.
It's going to be him kind of layered in there.

Speaker 1 I actually thought, also thought about Paddington for you. I thought maybe that voice acting might have like really just imprinted very strongly.

Speaker 1 I'm going to say you were taken by like, who is that guy in layer cake? That's what I think.

Speaker 1 That's who I think you are, Joe.

Speaker 2 That's, I, that's extremely complimentary. I love that.

Speaker 1 Like, it's a great movie.

Speaker 2 It is a great movie. Um,

Speaker 2 no, in 2009, Ben Wishaw played the poet John Keats,

Speaker 2 Jane Campion's bright star. And I re-watched that movie one million times.
Not only that, but I have tracks of Ben Wishaw reading John Keats' poetry, like just on my Spotify.

Speaker 2 I had to like specially import it onto my Spotify, but it is on there.

Speaker 2 It is the

Speaker 2 English majors

Speaker 2 dream machine. It is Ben Wishaw is John Keats, a dying poet in Bright Star, which I think is one of Jane Campion's finest films, actually.
Does not get enough recognition.

Speaker 2 But yeah,

Speaker 2 that's up there.

Speaker 2 Maybe runner-up Cloud Atlas, a really messy movie, but he is just completely wonderful in it.

Speaker 1 I find it hard to say I will be the person to defend Cloud Atlas, but I will make a reasoned case as to why it has certain merits. Like I have a lot of respect for what Cloud Atlas is trying to do.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. I think you and I would both, I think, defend not every single choice, not every single huge grand-based choice of that movie, but absolutely not.
But some for sure.

Speaker 2 And yeah, the Frobischer stuff in that movie really works for me. Okay.

Speaker 2 What else, if anything, do you want to say about oh, favorite sequence in Black Doves? That was another thing we were going to talk about. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 I think for me, it's the like

Speaker 1 little drummer boy raid on the drug compound.

Speaker 1 As far as like spy shit goes, or in this case, just like pure action movie sequencing, I really liked it as a professed Williams fanatic, like her doing all of that in a tinsel halo was just like the panache of that, I really appreciated.

Speaker 1 It's also, I will say, the overall structure of these like raid sequences.

Speaker 1 One of them tapped into one of my favorite like action movie cliches, which is when the hero like goes to the fortress and finds out that everyone has already been mowed down the first time.

Speaker 1 And so then to get the follow-up where they actually do get the big shootout and it is so stylized, like

Speaker 1 look, stylized violence is a pretty easy way to my heart. And I think the show does it pretty well, especially there.

Speaker 2 What are you thinking, Joe? That was such a good one. Um, I think I saw I like rewound to watch it again.

Speaker 2 The Slow-Mar part where they're like walking up and looking badass, and they like dress themselves, and like the camera swings around them, and as soon as it's behind them, they're in character as these like drunken pals.

Speaker 2 And I thought that was like, like,

Speaker 2 that was very, both very proud of itself and very well done. And I just like, I rewound to watch it again.
Um, for me, it's

Speaker 2 when Sam

Speaker 2 is getting Michael down the stairwell and out of the apartment, and this was just like, this was like a hint of

Speaker 2 what the better, prestigier version of this show could be. It has these sort of like moments of like, that, that just, that was shot

Speaker 2 so differently

Speaker 2 than your normal.

Speaker 2 And to just sort of be inside Michael's head and experience, you know, him like sort of staring out and looking at like birds that are flying across the sky, the like intimacy of it, the knowledge that Sam has that this is like goodbye.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 you know, at least for a time, I just thought that was all uh beautifully done. It's really really sad.
You know, it's this like I watched it a couple times because it's just sort of like

Speaker 2 watching

Speaker 2 Sam so focused on protecting and saving Michael while also knowing that these are like his final moments with someone who may already not look at him the way that he once did.

Speaker 2 Also, the way that their first dinner was shot,

Speaker 1 you know, just sort of like an eye.

Speaker 1 It's very, very good. It's good.
Yeah. I think overall, like, I have a tough time with the overall balance of the Sam and Michael scenes.

Speaker 1 And even like, this is a show that wants to do the juggle of domestic concerns and bloody spycraft and the way that they intersect, right?

Speaker 1 Like, Helen has to like hide out in the middle of a shootout to like take a call from her nanny. Like, that is what the show is and it's trying to do.

Speaker 1 I think there are moments where it's trying to make everything happen all at once so that the characters have to confront it, basically just so that they have to confront it.

Speaker 1 And there's not really a reason why like this phone call couldn't wait. Or do you really have to go there then? Or does this have to happen in this way right now? Yeah.
But

Speaker 1 these kinds of scenes, like in particular, as you said, the like him trying to escort Michael out of the out of the flat and then they're kind of like first date sequence, those are the scenes that make it worth it and make it work and it kind of like sell the idea of like what you have to give up to have this kind of life or the sacrifices you have to trade off.

Speaker 1 If you're, if you're Helen who's trying to be a mom and trying to be a wife and also a spy and also just like in over her head and maybe doesn't want to do any of this anymore,

Speaker 1 it's a tough balance to strike over the course of a show. I applaud them for trying it.
And I think some of the most successful moments are with these two.

Speaker 2 Let's talk about season two really briefly. So you already mentioned we feel, I mean, it is a certainty that we're going to, number 10,

Speaker 2 that Helen's husband is now going to be the PM if we get a season two. We get this ominous phone call

Speaker 2 where Sam and Helen are told you have been watched and you will be held accountable for,

Speaker 2 you know, the shoot at the end of the show. And then we haven't even mentioned.

Speaker 2 Our guy from True Detective, Finn Bennett, is here as Cole Atwood, the American.

Speaker 1 Certainly here.

Speaker 2 He is here.

Speaker 2 He is present.

Speaker 2 Not bringing all the heat that he brought to True Detective for sure, but he's present.

Speaker 2 Once again, dazzling with his American accent.

Speaker 2 This was like such a moment for me this year when he was cast in the Dunkin' Egg series. And I was like, that kid is English?

Speaker 1 I thought he's from Alaska. What are we talking about?

Speaker 2 The name of Alaskan.

Speaker 2 Anyway, Cole Atwood, but he does say to Helen, I know who you are, right? So like that feels very season two set up-y. And then also like the ongoing Michael Saga potentially.

Speaker 2 I often am like, I'm not sure about a season two. This show really needs to prove to me that I'm like, give me a season two and give it to me

Speaker 2 next Christmas. Yeah.
I demand this be stay a Christmas show. And I want one every Christmas, please.

Speaker 1 So I would love to stick with the Christmas theme. You know, Joe Barden has talked about he's already in the process of writing a second series.
Amazing.

Speaker 1 Already toying with the idea idea of like, does it need to be Christmas? Should it be another holiday? Like,

Speaker 1 I love the Christmas theme personally, and I agree with you. They are clearly seeding so many different things for a potential season two.

Speaker 1 The ones you mentioned, I'm mostly into.

Speaker 1 The one thing we haven't really talked about, and probably for good reason, is this like hector loose end of the kid that Sam was supposed to kill, who's now an adult drug dealer.

Speaker 1 And then they have this whole showdown where he doesn't kill him again. And now he might be working for him in a potential season two.

Speaker 1 No thank you on basically any of that.

Speaker 2 That's so strange. I was just sort of like, why, why are you letting this kid toss you around?

Speaker 1 Also,

Speaker 2 that the actor is the actor who played a young Prince Harry in the crown. And I was like, oh, this kid.

Speaker 1 This kid. I can't.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're right. You're right.
That was another sort of pitch to season two.

Speaker 2 Joe Barton, if you're listening, hope you're not maybe, but like, if you're listening, because I hope you're busy writing season two. That's the one

Speaker 1 you should be listening to this podcast.

Speaker 2 We need this to be a Christmas show. And with love and respect to Easter in London,

Speaker 2 I need this Black Dove season two,

Speaker 2 one year later at Christmas.

Speaker 1 I need at least one haul decked in season two. You know, if we want to be Christmas Plus, if Christmas into New Year's, like I'm into it, that's totally fine.
But halls must be decked.

Speaker 2 Michaelmas, you can miss me with Michaelmas.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, that is Black Doves. If you listen to all of this and you haven't watched it yet, you should probably go watch it.

Speaker 1 I would say so, yeah.

Speaker 2 We maybe spoiled some things, or this all sounded like gibberish to you. A reminder

Speaker 2 that our producer, Kai Grady, is the best.

Speaker 2 A reminder that Justin Sales has been doing a ton of work on this feed, particularly with the launch of the YouTube channel. So, another reminder:

Speaker 2 smash that subscribe button on the uh on the Ringer TV uh

Speaker 2 YouTube feed.

Speaker 2 Email us, pressytv at spotify.com if you have a what what we missed uh or or what you think we should be uh covering or what you think we should be watching or catching up on uh email so pressytv at spotify.com we are recording that next week so you don't have a ton of time so just like first thing that comes to mind shoot us an email get them in post-haste uh post-haste and then ringertv at spotify.com if you have a mailbag question for uh cr or yours truly we'll be back with more coverage with the agency as you requested with our year-end episode and

Speaker 2 lots more in the new year.

Speaker 1 Bye!

Speaker 2 Ah, the sounds of an Etsy holiday.

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