‘Black Doves’ Review: Festive Violence, Bloody Spycraft, and the London Underworld

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Terms and more at applecard.com. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed.
I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney.
And listen, Rob, we have a lot of, an unusual amount of business to get through at the beginning of this podcast here today. First and foremost, we want to let you all know, if you haven't already noticed, if the algorithm hasn't organically fed it to you, Creepy language.
There's a new Ringer TV YouTube channel. Rob, what can folks find on the Ringer TV YouTube channel? Only all of the most exciting content about television.
Mostly featuring us, truly, but also featuring Chris Ryan and Indy Greenwald, everything that The Watch is putting out, all sorts of upcoming video essays i you know i would go as

far as to recommend joe that people subscribe to it and like all of that content and share it amongst their friends i you know i think it would be a time well spent overall smash that subscribe button uh you know go ahead and leave a comment or all all complimentary comments please of course Yeah, that's where you can see Rob and, and, uh, yours truly us. Truly CR and Andy, Charles, Jody, Juliet, Mallory, Ben, Bill Simmons himself will be joining the prestige feed for a show.
You might've heard of next year. Uh, we're quite excited to have bill back, uh, sort of a little regularly on the feed.
So follow along in the regular TV, YouTube channel. Um, obviously we'll still be on your podcast feeds, but there will be some, uh, you know, YouTube exclusive content coming from our various pods.
And we're really excited about it. Speaking of YouTube exclusive content, I believe this is true.
We're still in the, in the formulating stages, but I believe CR and I are going to be doing some sort of regular mailbag, uh, content for you guys on YouTube, just basically answering your most burning TV questions, whether it's industry questions about the television itself or the television making industry. Um, uh, if it's questions about what should I watch is it questions about why did we like this show better than this show or any of that sort of stuff? CR and I are going to be doing little crossover eps for the two of us.
Again, I don't know how regular that is going to be, but it is definitely starting before the new year. So Ringer TV on YouTube is where you will find that particular project.
Am I allowed to submit questions for that project? Am I allowed to nudge things along to maybe do some gentle prompting to see like, hey, have you guys watched Culinary Class Wars yet? Is that a thing that I'm allowed to do? Only if you use a pseudonym, Rob, and I would like them to be increasingly ridiculous. Thank you so much.
Speaking of Rob's suggestion there, Rob and Sierra and I did put an episode up up on youtube but it's also in the watch feed is this in the prestige feed i should know that um you can hear it in podcast form or you can also watch it with your eyeballs on the youtube channel we did a sort of holiday binge recommendations yeah a little concierge service yeah a little like what to watch when you're at home with the fam based on different situations. So I'm excited about that episode.
We're getting some fun feedback on that one. So that's what's over on YouTube.
You can, if you want to get in on that CR and JR mailbag situation, you can email us ringertv at spotify.com. Ringertv at spotify.com is the email for that.
And perhaps other things in the future, but for right now, mailbag questions for Chris or your truly. And we might pull in other people from the ringer universe to answer those questions.
And, Rob, what is happening with our email address? I'm so glad you asked, Joe. It's been a journey for us going show to show, coming up with new email addresses every time that we then have to check exhaustively because people are emailing them even for other shows as they are trying to get in contact with us about, hey, what's going on with the agency? Hey, here are my delayed thoughts on Shogun or whatever.
We have really streamlined this process for you. We have a new email address for everything.
Prestigetv at Spotify.com Do you want to say that again, but like the way that humans say it? Prestigetv at Spotify.com. That's the normal way to say that word.

Yeah, I'm really excited

to have one easy email address

for you all to find us.

That's not to say we will never make up

a goofy email address again,

but basically all of those emails...

No, I'm done.

I'm hanging it up.

They're retiring our jerseys.

We're going off into the sunset.

There will be no more.

What if something like Jon Hamm's Nibble Rings presents itself to us again? Yeah, then I'll be back in. I can be easily dragged back in.
I'm not going to lie to you. What if we set up an alternative that's just consume the Rangoon at gmail.com? Why did we not do that? I don't know.
I don't know. But all of those various email addresses we made up throughout the year and a half are now forwarding to PrestigeTV at Spotify.com.
So if you send something to the old addresses, we'll all get it in the same inbox, PrestigeTV at Spotify.com. So it's RingerTV at Spotify.com, PrestigeTV at Spotify.com, the RingerTV YouTube channel.
I told you there was a lot of business. I got one more thing to say.
Rob, what's happening with the agency? I'm so glad you asked yet again, Jo. The response has been overwhelming.
Overwhelming. So many people are watching this show.
So many people are loving this show. So many people are clamoring specifically for more Joanna Robinson about this show.
And I have great news for you. We are going to be covering the agency going forward on a biweekly basis.
Every other episode, we will do a little lump sum starting with episodes three and four together. I can't wait to dive back in, Jo.
Yeah. I mean, as we were sort of petitioning the powers that be that we should cover this show a bit more because we are liking it so much, you know, Rob pulled up the article from the show, the Showtime numbers are good for the show.
People are watching the agency. I'm just bringing the data.
That's it. I'm just, I'm here to be helpful.
Sean Phetasy interviewed Richard Gere over on The Big Pick, so that I consider inside of the agency agenda.. And then we had a lot of recommendations from you all that we should also watch Le Bureau, which we may or may not do at some point.
But we will be covering the agency going forward. You guys made yourselves heard and known, and we appreciate you for that.
And you did it for us, ultimately. We needed the little little boost and I'm just thrilled to be covering it so regularly.
It's still Magaro season. So let's go.
Okay. So that is all the business.
I'm sorry there was so much. There will be less in the future, but we just have a bunch of exciting stuff that we're launching here at the end of the year.
So we are covering Black Doves, the number one TV show on Netflix currently. this is something we had been planning to cover anyway because we love a lot of the people that are involved it looks very fun to us um but we are covering all of the episodes in sort of one podcast so this is a little like binge check-in on black doves as we mentioned we'll be covering a couple more episodes of the agency before the end of the year.
And then we have a little like year-end treat. And this is the last bit of business.
We hope you guys will help us with our year-end episode that Rob and I have cooked up together, which is part of which will involve what we missed. So once again, you can email us prestigetv at spotify.com.
That's a very normal pronunciation. I don't know why you're getting on me about it.
Prestigetv at Spotify.com And, you know, we just got an email from someone who's like, hey, why aren't you covering Bad Sisters? So what did we not cover that you loved this year that you want to talk about? Pachinko? There's a bunch of stuff out there I'm sure that we missed. Well, don't seed answers.
I want to know what they think. Okay, I'm done talking about Apple TV Plus shows.
Anything else that doesn't just have to have aired on Apple that you want to tell us that we missed, that you think that we would like, that you think the listeners should check out, PrestiTV at Spotify.com. That will be part of a year-end episode that we're going to do that'll have some other stuff that we're cooking up as well.
So we hope that you will send us those, I don't know, suggestions, recommendations, lamentations, however you want to put it. Did I do all the business? I think I did, right? I mean, there's just the most important piece of business left, which is diving exhaustively into this six-episode miniseries of Black Doves.
Let's start with our big picture overall impressions. Rob Mahoney, did you enjoy your binge through Black Doves? I sure did, Joe.
Yeah. I sure did.
It felt very familiar to me in tone. Like this feels very diplomat adjacent,

which I mean as a compliment.

It's the number one thing I wrote.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It wants to be a page turner more than anything else.

And it absolutely is.

Like you will rip through this show.

You're going to get your espionage, but it's going to be a little goofier

and a little breezier

and maybe a bit broad and a bit convenient at some times,

like as the plot is kind of unraveling, but literally none of that will stop it from being fun. It's a great ride.
I think I thought of The Diplomat immediately because basically what I think both The Diplomat and Black Doves are, are somewhat dumber versions of like incredibly, and I said that with love, I had a great time and I have no issue

with some of the dumbness

that exists in Black Dubs.

I have some issue

with some of the dumbness.

Okay, fair enough.

But it is fun,

chief among anything else,

it is fun.

Definitely.

And so if you're looking for,

you know,

this is a case where I don't mind

that this is a binge.

I often get cranky about a binge,

but I'm just sort of like,

you don't need a week

to think about

what you just saw in Black Dubs.

Thank you. you know, this is a case where I don't mind that this is a binge.
I often, I often get cranky about a binge, but I'm just sort of like, you don't need a week to think about what you just saw. Black doves.
You just need to watch the next one and that's all you need to do. And so both the diplomat and black doves feel like slightly dumber versions of like better shows we've seen over the years, more serious shows that we've seen over the years, but nonetheless, they've recruited top tier talent, you know, like Kerry Russell over on The Diplomat, or we've got freaking Keira Knightley and Ben Whishaw chopping it up here on Black Doves.
And so it's just like, it's a true, it's the real sweet spot. It's what I think Netflix maybe should be doing in this sort of binge world that it exists in, because like, I don't want them to waste terribly dense and chewy shows in a binge environment.
I don't think that's where those kinds of show exists, shows exist. Alternatively, there's a lot of stuff on Netflix.
That's just like too dumb to live. Like I just can't, I can't deal with it.
And this is just like the perfect sweet spot. I was talking to, um, loved the show.
Obviously he's talked about it over the watch. I was talking to his lovely wife, Phoebe about this.
And I was like, I think I was paying too much attention to black dubs is the problem because there's like a lot of flashbacks, a lot of exposition, a lot of reiterating character names. And I was like, oh, they're doing this so that if you're second screening this, you're not going to get lost because they're just going to show you the same flashback of Ben Whishaw deciding not to shoot a kid in the back of a car.
How many times can someone almost shoot a kid? 200 times. Just in case you're looking down at your phone or you went to go make a sandwich or went to the bathroom.
And so I was like, okay, it's like a second screen confection for the holidays from Netflix. Who says no? You know? I think that last part is really operative here where Netflix clearly has a huge Christmas content engine at its disposal.
This is a bit of counter-programming from the other Christmas fair you may find on that particular streaming service or that particular, I would say the stuff that's being covered more generally, like we were talking about the work that Jodie Walker's doing here at The Ringer with BingeMis. Fewer Vanessa Hudgenses, fewer Lindsay Lohans.
Dare I say, zero Hudgenses. That's a spoiler.
I'm not going to say that. But still incredibly festive.
This wants to be a Christmas show. And it wants to be a Christmas show in a way that, to your point about how bingeable this is and the fact that you can just rip through it so easily, it takes place in a pretty confined time period.
It has a natural momentum. It has a certain holiday spirit.
Granted, using Fairytale of New York is literally cheating, but it also works every single time.

And it is a perfect holiday watch for that reason.

It has all of the accoutrement

of being a Christmas thing,

including some of the spirit of Christmas,

unfortunately.

In case it isn't clear,

because I feel like I do say it to you

all the time, Rob,

I love podcasting with you.

And I love that these were my

first four bullet points, my notes,

diplomat. Yep.
Slow horses slash alias. Shane Black, a fairy tale of New York pubs sing along the most Shane Black thing.
So let's talk about Shane Black. So this is, this is, as you say, this is a Christmas show with a lot of violence and blood spatter

and recreational drug use and, and this, that, and the other thing. Um, Shane black, I think really mastered the art of this contrast, uh, in his filmography.
Uh, if you are unfamiliar, we're talking about things like lethal weapon, the long kiss, good night, kiss,, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Iron Man 3, if you prefer, and the epilogue of the nice guys. So this is something that he has done really well.
A lot of times he does LA Christmas, which is its own dystopian aspect to it. This is London is proper London Christmas.
So we are, we are taking love. Actually, I'm putting it through the meat grinder and Hey, we got Keira Knightley here to do it with you.
I love this as someone who felt themselves getting actively. Dumber and morally degraded watching hot frosty and Mary gentlemen, which I did do in a double feature with some friends and a lot of adult beverages last weekend.
I do appreciate that this exists as another option. When it has some of the Shane Black charm too, not just in like a great sense of humor and the banter, overall like the kind of Christmas like backdrop in some of these things and and the way that kind of not drives the action, but I think sets an overall tone.
And that it doesn't shy away from being violent when it's time to be violent. Like I think the violence in this show is really good and really surprising in some points.
And I think plays really well for shock and awe, but also for plot reasons. And also just to make it feel a little edgier than

just like we're all gathering around the Christmas tree.

It needs,

it needs some of that danger.

If we're also going to be,

you know,

wrapping presents and making,

is it a fig,

is it a figgy pudding they're making?

What is it that they're making?

We're making figgy pudding.

We're clothing oranges.

We're making homemade decorations.

We're just,

we're doing it all.

We're doing, doing a London Christmas christmas i used to this is gonna sound quite douchey and i apologize in advance i used to go to london at christmas time quite often and uh why is that douchey it's one of the premier christmas destinations in the world it sounds very that's anyway uh it's the best place to be at Christmasmas like it genuinely is there's like there's spiced wine on uh steaming on like nearly every street corner it's just like you know we i'm from california so having actual snow and around christmas is such a delightful novelty there's walking christmas marts down like on the south bank it's just like christmas in london is just like a

different level uh all together and uh i i genuinely started looking at flights to all right so you mentioned the violence violence is good we love the violence in the show and we do. Do you have a favorite kill

from

these episodes? There's only one answer, right? Okay. It is the biggest.
It is the showiest. To paraphrase from the show, a moment when Sam cranially readjusts somebody with a shotgun.
I just want to say rest in peace to Kent. Rest in pieces to Kent, who ends up splattered all over Williams and Helen and Jason's wall we hardly knew you but I really appreciated the way that she went out I agree it has to be Kent we get not only the incredible blood splatter.
Full splash zone stuff.

Yeah, the real watermelon of the Gallagher show situation

really introduces us

to what this show is going to be.

It comes about halfway through

the first episode,

so you don't have to wait for it.

And we get that,

and then we get it followed by

just a perfectly wish-eyed,

insouciant,

hello, darling, like after that. You're just like, we're off to the...
What more could I want? Honestly, genuinely, than to have England's Rose herself curiditely dripping in blood and Ben Wishaw being dashing. Did I melt every time Ben Wishaw says the word darling? Yes, I did.
I cannot help it. I think it's a normal chemical response.
You're merely human, Rob. This is all I'm saying.
It's very important. Okay, do you want to do your top five favorite performances in the show ranked? This is a great segue because Ben Weshaw is number one with a bullet.
Absolutely. Without question.
He can be a sad boy. He can be a trigger man.
He can be the single most charming person on television whenever he wants to be. Correct.
He steals this entire show. I think he's wonderful in it.
He looks great in a suit. He looks great in a motorcycle helmet.
Yep. The hair.
And then, yeah, he can tumble the hair forward. He can be in a tank top.

He can do whatever he needs to do.

It's Ben Whishaw.

Ben Whishaw is like my number one favorite of all time ever.

And I don't know that you and I have ever talked about that. We have not.

That is true.

Take me through.

How did this happen?

I couldn't tell you exactly. It just came upon...
No, but it is true. Ben Whishaw is...
I think it's because no one is better at... I mean, the hair is...
It's like an oil wave of delight. It's just wonderful.
The fact that Sam was in Michael's phone as sexy pub man good hair is an incredible bit. Speaks for all of us.
I think it's that no one is better at making me cry than Ben Wishaw. He does it in almost anything.
He did it in Mary Poppins Returns. No matter what the assignment, be it Paddington or anything else, maybe not Perfume, the one where he plays a creepy serial killer, but most things, Ben Whishaw has made me cry.
And I think that's something that I just really enjoy. He's so good at it.
And I think he did it in Black you know there's like moments when you sort of Sam is stoically processing the cost of the life he has chosen when it comes to his relationship with Michael and that yeah it got to me you know what I mean and like there's choices that he makes of like hesitating leaving coming back like yeah coming back. These various moments that feel so human and real and beyond what's written on the page.
I just think he's tremendous. And a lot of those moments too, in terms of Sam as a character, make Sam less good at his job.
There's a lot of trepidation. There's a lot of Sam trying to lie when it's very clear that he's not telling the truth.
Having Ben Wishaw in this part allows Sam to be both very cool and sometimes super naive in a way that I think is really hard to balance in a show like this and in a part like this and in a story like this. And this is why you bring in someone like Ben Wishaw to do it.
Papa Seidu, who's been in the news recently for Harry Potter reasons, unfortunately, but plays the assassin Elmore Fitch. And he has a moment when he's in Keira Knightley's house where she says, you're going to regret that murder.
And he's like, I regret every single one. You know what I mean? He has this oddly profound emotional line out of nowhere.
And I wrote in my notes, prequel for Elmore Fitch. I would watch it.
Black Doves colon the Fitch years. I would watch it.
He also gets a lot of ominous cooking in the way that lots of people do in this show. The number of characters in Black Doves who get to say some version of, if I'm right about this, you're going to wish you were already dead.
Like, everyone says a version of that at some point to Keira Knightley. It's wonderful.
That's the kind of pastiche I can appreciate. Yeah, this show's so good.
Okay, who is your number two on the performance list? Number one is Ben. Who's your number two? Number two.
Also not a hard call for me. I'm going to be honest with you.
Ella Lily Hyland, who plays Williams in this show, I think just forces her way into being basically a third star. It's clear that this is constructed to be a two-hander.
I don't want to disparage Keira Knightley. She'll be coming up on my list very shortly.
But the extremely Gen Z coded disaffected trigger man, which we learned is a gender neutral term.

I'm thankful for that for Black Doves.

One of one.

Like I've never seen a character quite like this.

And this is a show that as we've kind of alluded to,

deserves to have the piss taken out of it sometimes.

And she is there to do it basically at every turn.

I loved every second she was on screen.

She's my number three.

She's wonderful.

And like to your point, like this is,

it's a two-hander or, you know you if you look at sort of starring versus guest it's ben wish i'll kira knightley and sarah lancashire who plays reed who like their handler like those are supposed to be sort of like the three main stars you can make uh you know your arguments for andrew bookend or like there's like other people you could argue, but I do think that by sheer force of will and charisma for days, Williams, uh, comes in number three and sort of the characters we like to watch, uh, on this show when she's in peril. Um, you know, I'm like, no, I need her to stick around.
She has to survive. I survive i need her voice on the show she's my number three but kira is my number two and i think because um kira you know has been not like gone but a little bit gone for a while last thing you have seen her in because i was thinking about this i genuinely don't think I've seen anything she's done for about a decade because with all due respect, like I was not waiting with bated breath for Boston Strangler.
Oh, I was going to say the Boston Strangler movie? No. I did not watch that.
I wasn't locked in like that. It's okay.
Does Red Nose Day actually count? No, that does not count. The love actually as spoof that they did? Not as the voice of Tinkerbell in Neverland.
I didn't even see her Dr. Zhivago.
I feel very bad about it. So that means film.
It might be, uh, um, Colette 2018. Yeah.
So yeah. So she feels like she's been gone, even though she's been working here and there.
She's not been working in anything that feels like maybe worthy of her. Um, no misbehavior misbehavior was quite good uh though she wasn't like the main part of that but that was 2020 but still to your point take it gone but not gone gone certainly been ever forgotten the nostalgia i think is like kicking around for kira like even though she hasn't really gone away, the rewatchability of Love Actually, Pride and Prejudice, and Pirates of the Caribbean mean that people are always thinking about Kira Knightley in one way or another.
And if she went away, she's got a five-year-old and a nine-year-old, she's been raising her kids a bit and all that sort of stuff like that. It's just sort of like, where's Kira? We want to see her.

And I'm thrilled to see her do exactly this.

She is like having so much fun.

She and Ben Whishaw are such like absolute aces.

So to watch them share many scenes together, I would just watch them do like target practice.

Oh, completely. Throwing knives under the turnpike was just like, this is great television.
Wonderful, wonderful stuff. All right, so that's my two and three.
What's your number three? Was it Kira? My three is Kira too. Yeah, I think what came to mind for me in watching her in this show is like, this is just star shit.
And you see big movie stars come to TV sometimes or come to streaming platforms and they do a version of what they do and they do it well enough and people come and watch and that's great. And then there are people like Keira Knightley and Black Doves who it's just like, she's holding this thing together.
She is propping up these huge exposition dumps that, as you said, are repeated multiple times to make sure that you get them. And she makes it all work and makes it feel fun to watch.
And I agree with you. Her dynamic, specifically the Sam Helen dynamic, is so delightful.
And it's really the only time those characters have to be honest with the people around them. And from that, you have this dangerous spy show, all of these convoluted plots, some of which work, some of which don't.
And you get this bit of warmth in the middle with these people who I like, they're not letting each other off the hook. They will be critical of each other.
They will poke and prod. But there is a warmth and an understanding there that I think makes the show feel pretty distinct.
The way that he shows up, like, you know, he comes back after all these years gone, because he was told she was in trouble, or the way that she shows up so heavily pregnant and you know just basically tosses her escape plan out the window for him because she got to save him and not just him but got to save the man that he loves like that is so mean so meaningful inside quite a silly show so uh yeah, the two of them together. All right.

Who is your number four?

My number four,

I started to dwell on this

and then I realized that the answer

was right in front of me

and it's Gabrielle Crevy as Eleanor

stole my number four spot

because she steals a lot of the scenes she's in

and frankly just gets all of the best lines

as far as I'm concerned in this show.

Tinker Taylor soldier twat

made me just about fall off my couch

Oh my couch. Hold on to your fannies.
It's go bang time. There's just one or two of those zingers for her every single episode.
Yeah. I wanted more from her.
And yeah, if we have the future of multiple seasons of the show, which it sounds like a lot of people involved are basically planning for and penciling in, Eleanor and characters like that are part of the reason why. Like, you're building out a broader world here in the sort of like London underground criminal network.
And, you know, there is the part of that where they just get to be like funny and crass. And then there is the part of that where, as you said like there is a a warmth and a messaging about like having each other's backs and kind of a collaborative spirit like this is a christmas show inside of a spy show and i think her her kind of inclusion in that while getting to be very funny is also being like kind of vulnerable and finding her place and and i just loved the time we spent with that character i gotta say that that Eleanor and Williams, in a show where Ben Whishaw is here, for them to make such a memorable hair impression on me, excellent bang work from both.
Williams especially, of course, but really good bangs on both of those women. I loved them together.
My number four is Catherine Hunter as Lenny Lines. And Len Lenny lines as like, I don't know the kind of character that you might see, like, uh, Michael Keaton.
Like, it's just like a real cockney, um, you know, occasionally tracksuit wearing like cigar smoking. I don't want to fuck with this person.
Uh, your Brita filter don't even bother scary like kind of stepped out of a Guy Ritchie movie but is like here definitely in this tone Catherine Hunter steals everything she's ever in this is just what she does whether it's an Andor or, uh, the tragedy of Macbeth, you know, like she's just so compelling. And I just, I don't know.
Can you, can you locate that? Cause I feel like I want to say like 70% of it is her voice is so distinct. And the kind of like the command that her voice puts on a scene is so singular that like, I just want to watch her do stuff and give these huge speeches and issue threats.
Like I, I'm always trying to figure out what it is that she's doing, but I always want to watch her. But it's also her face, like, you know, because she has like quite the unusual face and like, especially in Macbeth, like the physicality that goes along with that role.
But there's just like, you know, she's just strange. She's a strange figure.
And, um, which is not to say she doesn't have range because I think there's, there's such a difference between what she's doing in Andor and what she's doing here. Um, so she has range, but inside of that range, there is a sort of Ruth Gordon strangeness to her that just like, what, what are you going to do next? And I'm scared of you.
Um, and it's,. And it's great.
I think the strangeness works really well too and plays with this idea of like, we are so far removed from some of the grounds that we've been talking about on other shows, Joe, which is like very much more like MI5 or CIA. Like this is private sector and everything is a little weird and everything is a little off and there's their own sets of rules.
And I love that we're going to a guitar shop to stock up on guns, and stopping by the makeup counter to get this bullet fingerprinted in a way that also feels very Christmas shopping to me, but feels very boutique. All of these people are getting by on their own, by their own set of rules and their own codes, and some of them make sense and some of them don't.
And some of them are getting people killed. But Lenny Lines, to me, almost epitomizes that sort of world building.
I love that. Yeah, the guitar shopping, that all felt a little like John Wickian.
You know what I mean? We're not quite on that level, but we're flirting with this idea of this almost supernatural assassin situation, but I loved it. Okay.
Number five, last but not least. You're number five.
I went with somebody who has a pretty confined role in the show, but knew the assignment, and that's Andrew Koji as Jason. Oh, interesting.
That one didn't really work for me. Tell me why it worked for you.
I mean, I get the smoky, mysterious. He's there to be hot, and he's there to be appealing, and he's there to be dangerous.
And he's also basically doing the equivalent of the dead wife in a billowing dress on the beach footage while the hero looks back on. Have I talked to you about my phrase for this? No, what is it? I know I've talked about it on House of R and Trial by Content.
It's something that my friends and I came up with. So forgive me, listeners, if you've heard it before.
But some of my friends and I came up during the pandemic while we were watching a bunch of really bad movies, one of which was Time Cop. And there's a moment in Time Cop where he's like staring at this photo.
And it's like him and his wife and his dog. And my friend said, oh, it's his dead dog wife.
Because we weren't sure who had died and what he was sad about. So anytime you see this, and it doesn't have to be a wife, though it usually is, but I'm like, oh, it's his dead dog wife.
And so yeah, he's dead dog wifing his way through most of this movie. I think Andrew Koji gives great dead dog wife, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, he's not given a ton to do, but I think the mystery of Helen's personal stake in the story sort of hangs on him being a mysterious enough figure. And I think he conveys that really well.
I think he's giving you just enough, but not enough to kind of keep coming back and wanting more threads of that story. And as we've alluded to, let me tell you, the show will tell you over and over and over exactly what their conversations were like.
So he has to have the performance style and the characterization and overall the look that can carry that sort of repetition. And I actually think he does very well.
I'm doing a House of Art Classic Smuggle on the number five slot. I will say, if I only have to pick one.
Yeah, you do. You created this prompt, so you kind of do.
I don't. It's the queen of wigs and accents herself, Tracy Ullman, who shows up literally just at the end of the series, but knows exactly what she's doing.
It's in a show that has Katherine Hunter in it. This is somehow the campiest thing that happens is when tracy ullman shows up as a crime the head of the crime family that has infiltrated everywhere um so that was really fun like here at the end of all things you get a tracy ullman is a treat uh so enjoy that but also sarah lancashire who plays reed who is the third leader of the show speaking of wig work um who is so good in happy valley or anything else that she's ever done is just like a real you know essentially doing margo martindale and the americans uh is is wonderful here um and then i already mentioned him but um andrew i sit like book and buckin i don't know how to say his last name but yeah i i believe it's bucking bucking that makes more sense than uh me trying to torturously make it something else as wallace webb um the reason i don't know how to pronounce this actor's last name is because i always just call him mark latimer which is his character's name from broad church but i was like mark latimer what are you doing here and he's better than he needs to be i think in this role.
And that is usually what he does when he shows up in a number of things that I've seen him, even though I still call him Mark Latimer. But that is my cheat for level five.
Well, it's another one of those characters and performances that is like speaking sequel. It's a lot of like, oh, this guy is going to be the PM in season two, as they allude to pretty heavy-handedly, I would say, over the back of the show.
And so, yeah, setting all of his groundwork now, as you said, is a better performance than it needs to be. And I think, in some ways, a more interesting character than it needs to be to service the plot at times.
I wasn't upset with what he brought to the table at all. I agree, it's worthy of note.
I actually, for whatever reason, Sarah Lancashire didn't work for me as well. That's why she's low for me.
I should have her in the three spot or something like that. I think she's always good, but I think that character is used oddly.
I think that's part of it i think the final scene

with them in the in the church in the bleep midwinter again she's burdened with a lot of exposition yes uh in that conversation but there's something about the way it's all put together i was sort of like under the spell of that scene even even as i was sort of like okay a lot of exposition. That's like sort of her

job in the show.

It's a thankless job.

It is a little thankless, and I think that character overall is a little, based on a TV-watching perspective, a little too scrutable. It's a little too clear too quickly that it's like, why would you literally ever trust this person? It's so obvious, it seems, that she has her hands manipulating these different pieces

on the board.

In a way, I just was left wanting.

I was waiting for,

what is the twist with her?

What is the actual mystery?

Because everything just seemed

to be right there on the page

and right there on her face.

That last scene is confounding.

This show is a plot engine.

And it's just going and going

and going and going.

And then we're going to screech to a halt

Thank you. scene is confounding.
This show is a plot engine, and it's just going and going and going and going. And then we're going to screech to a halt, and I'm just going to give you a seven minute explainer on Jason.
I talked that up to me not caring very much about Jason, but I do care about Helen. I was trying.
Anyway, this is our note for season two. You can trust the audience a little bit more.
Just a smidge. Just a smidge more.
In that web, though, I will say, Agnes O'Casey, who plays Danny, who is the younger Black Dove sort of sent in to be the replacement for Helen should she decide to peace out or something like that was really fun um she played a similar character in a miniseries i watched called ridley road in that she was trying to sort of like infiltrate and seduce a man in power and stuff like that but she added a homicidal like gleam to her eye this little sicko uh this cute as a button little sicko and all of her machinations. And even though Ellen clocks her right away and we're all probably cheering a bit when Ellen completely beats the shit out of her and nearly kills her in the jewelry shop.
But I found their absolutely smiling, menacing interactions the couple times that they have them in public to be really, really fun. I also think for everything we're saying about the show that's like a little bit silly or a little bit broad, playing spy paranoia as a stand-in for like the other woman, my husband's secretary or my husband's assistant paranoia is just like a really smart doubling.
And overall, like I have her just written down as Danny Winky face in my notes over and over because that's what she was in his phone. There's like the little details that I think make that, as you said, the homicidal streak included, just really work.
When she's like, like your sock, she's like, oh, it's a little office inside joke. I was like, wow, I hate you so much.
You're wonderful. You wouldn't get it.
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We mentioned this is a proper London Christmas. Keira Knightley is here.
Every single interview I've seen her give for this show, someone has asked her about Love Actually. Sort of disappointed, like, to the point where I'm, like, watching her smile get tighter and tighter on her face as people bring up Love Actually.
I just thought, I've never, I don't think I've talked to you about Love Actually, a controversial, yet often beloved film. Rob, where are you on Love Actually? My experience talking about Love Actually might mirror Kira's pretty closely, which is to say, you know what, I'm happy for anyone who wants to hold this movie very closely.
It is not for me. All caps, not for me, period.
Yeah. I've seen this movie so many times and I used to, I used to really like it.
Or I used to really like certain storylines in it. And then just sort of like increasingly as it became my job to examine story, as the revelation that a lot of people have had where they're like, oh, hmm.
Keira Daly was how old when she made this movie? Or what is Andrew Lincoln doing with those cue cards on Christmas? What do you mean you tell the truth on Christmas? Anyway, so the point is, can I quote all of Love Actually? Probably. Are there things that I like? Yeah, the kid running through the airport, breaking all TSA rules, just to see things that Girl from America is so cute.
Yeah, there are things that I like. Do I like Liam Neeson saying, we need Kate, we need Leo, we need them right now? Liam's good.
Do I like watching, not like, but do I respect watching Emma Thompson cry her eyes out to Joni Mitchell unlike anyone else? Yes. But do I think, and have I always thought that Colin Firth is an absolute weirdo creep in this movie? Yes, because he's declaring his love without ever having had a conversation with a woman.
All this sort of stuff. Martin Freeman, innocent.
That storyline, innocent. I like that one.
I would say the Hugh Grant, Martine McCutcheon one is probably the most by-the-book rom-com-y in a way that I don't find objectionable in the way that I find most of the other ones like outright objectionable. I just think at this point, like Richard Curtis is a violation.
Maybe Richard Curtis is a weird dude. And I have a hard time getting on the wavelength of what he considers to be romantic.
I think it's the thing. I'm just getting like increasingly weirdo.
Weirder is my thing. But you like Notting Hill.
You brought that up in the 99 i do draft okay i do but like if you watch about time and don't see the problem i don't know what to tell you you and i are on the same page about that one i think his best is four weddings and a funeral his best and least problematic is four weddings and a funeral love actually if you enjoy it i i love that for you and i respect it do i sometimes say say things like, eight is a lot of legs, David, which is a lot of love actually that doesn't really matter? Yes. But can I condone it as a comfort rewatch at Christmas? I personally wouldn't pick it.
But I will give the show a lot of credit. The characters literally do list off their favorite Christmas movies and no one mentions love Actually, which it just would have been too cute.
Did you write down what they said? I did. So, Kaiming picked the Santa Claus, which I had to be reminded of the exact plot of the Santa Claus recently.
I forgot that he died. That Santa dies.
That Santa literally dies. And Tim the Toolman Taylor becomes Santa.
I had in my memory, oh, like, Santa's sick, Santa got knocked out, Santa got kicked by a reindeer. He needed a break.
Yeah. And there's some legalese that leads to Tim Allen being Santa.
No, Santa is dead. And Tim Allen is your Santa now.
Yeah. Sam picked The Holiday, very on point.
Half of a good movie, if that. Uh-huh.
I don't think any more needs to be said about that yeah we don't eleanor is in the room i would have loved to hear her pick but we don't get it i was she seems like a happiest season sort to me personally maybe also die hard maybe a double feature this these are the multitudes that eleanor contains on the tonight show for the record kira said die hard was her favorite christ movie. I mean, it's a banger.
Yeah. Okay, what's your holiday comfort watch, Rob Mahoney? This came up for us recently, Joe.
For me, it is Muppet Christmas Carol. Has to happen every year.
I really feel like I've betrayed you multiple times on that podcast that's not been released to the public yet. You've betrayed me multiple times on most podcasts.
podcasts. You're just constantly throwing me under the bus.
No. No.
But here's one that I think we can come together on, which is this is not a Christmas movie, but has become a Christmas tradition in the Mahoney household. My mom is a huge Lord of the Rings head.
We're just running through those kind of all throughout the season. And so that has become a comfort watch around the holidays.
In the spirit of Christmas, I won't have our usual fight about Lord of the Rings. And I will just say, yes, in common cause, we can join hands around Lord of the Rings.
We can hold hands and we can watch the true theatrical versions of Lord of the Rings. I will add to that, and I already did my watch while decorating the Christmas tree this year.
It's a Wonderful Life is maybe a basic bitch answer but uh i was trying to talk to my nephews about it over the weekend and they were like we don't like that movie and i was like tell me okay they watch a lot of old movies though how old are your nephews uh it's uh nearly 13 and then uh nine uh and i was like tell me about um tell me about why you don't like that explain yourselves

you nine uh and i was like tell me about um tell me about why you don't like that explain yourselves no i was just curious because i was talking to someone else and they were like that movie's depressing and i was like well i don't i don't know that i could i was like no i find it uplift okay i hear what you're saying um bittersweet the boys couldn't yeah bit, there you go. Boys couldn't quite put their finger on it, but we will continue to interrogate their opinions on that.
Okay, we wanted to play a quick round of the Robert Downey Jr. game with Keira Knightley and Ben Wachon.
If you didn't listen to a previous episode where I explained what this was, basically you pick an actor and you say, either the, it's it's a loose definition but it's like what is the movie for you personally what is the movie that you associate with this person maybe it's the first movie that you really paid attention to them in maybe it's the movie you most rewatch with them in um maybe it's the movie you think that they're the they're most selves in I have a cheat hack on this one Do you? Well I have a cheat hack

Guess maybe it's the movie you think that they're their most selves in I have a cheat hack on this one. Do you? Well I have a cheat hack guess on this one for you Rob which is is it not for Kira is it not Atonement? It is Atonement.
Yeah okay. This is a cheat hack because we were talking about Joe Wright movies recently and you said that Atonement was high on your list.
Can I guess your Kira? I'm assuming yours is not Atonement. It's not Atonement.
Yes, of course. Please.
I believe that your Kira pick is Pride and Prejudice. It's not.
And that's a really good guess, though. It's a really, really good guess.
My guess was that you are a Firth first. I am a Firth first.
I thought you might be drawn in that direction but would have a begrudging respect

for the McFadden portrayal. I do.
And Kira by association and that product by association. But if not Pride and Prejudice, then what is your first Kira Knightley association? It's Ben and Lecbeth.
Of course it is. Sorry.
Why did I dig so deep? See, this is what's concerning to to me I was feeling really confident about Pride and Prejudice I do not have a good read on what your Ben Whishaw association would be especially knowing now that he is this meaningful to you that he is one of your guys I will say I sort of held back a little bit on my answer about why he's one of my guys because I didn't want to give you necessarily too much information for Ben Whishaw on this game. Wow.
Okay.

Here's what I'll say about Pride and Prejudice. Pride and Prejudice was an

incredible guess. And I think most people would guess Pride and Prejudice for me.
I just have

such a grudge against that movie swallowing the legacy that is the first version.

So begrudging respect is out. It's just hatred at this point.

Thank you. a grudge against that movie swallowing the legacy that is the first version.
So begrudging respect is out.

It's just hatred at this point.

Joe Wright's doing a lot of great stuff in that movie.

It's just not nearly as good as the first version.

Then a whole generation of people have forgotten

that the first version even exists.

That's true.

That's where we are.

Alright, Ben Whishaw.

Ben Whishaw for you.

Yeah.

Oh, this is such a good question. I don't feel like I know.
You surprise me sometimes with your familiarity with literary class. Well, I mean, is it just Paddington? it is not Paddington.
Okay. For me, when I conjure him in my head, I think Q and Skyfall.
I was going to say, I almost guessed Bond. I almost guessed Bond.
Okay. I wish it wasn't that easy.
And honestly, when I was thinking about it, the first time I actually saw him was in I'm Not There. Yeah.
The problem is he's almost so not recognizable as Ben Whishaw in that role that it's hard to pinpoint that as being like,

oh, this is the defining visual

I have of this person or memory I have of this person.

But yeah, look.

So we're going Skyfall?

We're going on the bench of the museum maybe?

Yes.

I am a basic bitch in this particular way.

It is Skyfall.

I mean, I really almost picked Skyfall.

I really, really did.

Okay.

I'm all kinds of twisted up about

what to guess for you here.

It's not an easy answer.

Thank you. I really almost picked Skyfall.
I really, really did. Okay.
I'm all kinds of twisted up about what to guess for you here.

It's not an easy answer, honestly.

Sometimes in this game, you kind of want to change your answer to something that people could reasonably guess because it's not that fun if you have one that's like, you know.

Yeah. Like, I think better like Beckham is not outside of the realm of guessing.

But this one's a little tricky.

I would say arguably her breakout,

like her first proper breakout.

Correct.

I think for you,

it's going to be something where you're digging pretty deep.

It's not going to be Wish I Right on the surface.

It's going to be him kind of layered in there.

I actually also thought about Paddington for you.

I thought maybe that voice acting

might have really just imprinted very strongly. I'm going to say you were taken by like, who is that guy in Layer Cake? That's what I think.
That's who I think you are, Jo. That's extremely complimentary.
I love that. It's a great movie.
It is a great movie. No, in 2009, Ben Whishaw played the poet John Keats in Jane Campion's Bright Star.
And I rewatched that movie one million times. Not only that, but I have tracks of Ben Whishaw reading John Keats poetry just on my Spotify.
I had to specially import it onto my Spotify, but it is on there. It is the English major's dream uh machine is ben wishaw as john keith a dying poet in uh bright star which i think is one of jane campion's finest films actually uh does not get enough recognition um but yeah that's that's uh that's up there um maybe runner-up cloud atlas uh a really messy, but he is just completely wonderful in it.
I find it hard to say I will be the person to defend Cloud Atlas, but I will make a reasoned case as to why it has certain merits. I have a lot of respect for what Cloud Atlas is trying to do.
Absolutely. I think you and I would both, I think, defend not every single choice, not every single Hugh Grant-based choice in that movie, but like, absolutely not.
But some for sure. And yeah, the Frobisher stuff in that movie really works for me.
Okay. What else, if anything, do you want to say about, oh, favorite sequence in Black Doves.
That was another thing we were going to talk about. Oh, yeah.
I think for me, it's the little drummer boy raid on the drug compound. As far as spy shit goes, or in this case, just pure action movie sequencing, I really liked it.
As a professed Williams fanatic, her doing all of that in a tinsel halo, which is the panache of that, I really appreciated. It's also, I will say, the overall structure of these like raid sequences.
One of them tapped into one of my favorite like action movie cliches, which is when the hero like goes to the fortress and finds out that everyone has already been mowed down the first time. Yeah.
And so then to get the follow up where they actually do get the big shootout and it is so stylized. Look, stylized violence is a pretty easy way to my heart.
And I think the show does it pretty well, especially there. What are you thinking, Jo? That was such a good one.
I think I rewound to watch it again, the slow-mo part where they're walking up and looking badass and they dress themselves and the camera swings around them and as soon as it's behind them they're in character as these drunken pals pals and i thought that was like like that was very both very proud of itself and very well done and i just like i rewound to watch it again um for me it's when sam is getting michael down the stairwell and out of their apartment and this was just like this was like a hint of what the better prestigier version of this show could be it has these sort of like moments of like that that just that was shot uh so differently um than your normal and and to just sort of be inside michael's head and experience you, him like sort of staring out and looking at like birds that are flying across

the sky,

the like intimacy of it,

the knowledge that Sam has,

that this is like goodbye.

You know,

at least for a time,

I just thought that was all beautifully done.

It's really sad.

You know,

it's this like,

I watched it a couple of times. Cause it's just sort of like watching sam so focused on protecting and saving michael while also knowing that these are like his final moments with someone who may already not look at him the way that he once did also the way that their first dinner was dinner was shot.
It's very good. You know, just sort of like the eyes.
That scene is very cute. It's very, very good.
It's good. Yeah.
I think overall, like, I have a tough time with the overall balance of the Sam and Michael scenes. And even, like, this is a show that wants to do the juggle of domestic concerns and bloody spycraft and the way that they intersect, right? Like, Helen has to, like, hide out in the middle of a shootout to like take a call from her nanny like that is what the show is and it's trying to do i think there are moments where it's trying to make everything happen all at once so that the characters have to confront it basically just so that they have to confront it and there's not really a reason why like this phone call couldn't wait oh you really have to go there then or does this have to happen in this way right now yeah but these kinds of scenes like in particular as you said the like him trying to escort michael out of the out of the flat and then they're kind of like first date sequence those are the scenes that make it worth it and make it work and and it kind of like sell the idea of like what you have to give up to have this kind of life or

the sacrifices you have to trade off if you're if you're helen who's trying to be a mom and trying to be a wife and also a spy and also just like in over her head and maybe doesn't want to do any of this anymore um it's a tough balance to strike over the course of a show i i applaud them for trying it and i think some of the most successful moments are with these two let's talk about season to you really briefly. So you already mentioned we feel, I mean, it is a certainty that we're going to number 10, that, that, that Helen's husband is now going to be the PM.
If we get a season two, we get this ominous phone call where Sam and Helen are told you have been watched and you will be held accountable for, you know, the shoot at the end of the show. And then we haven't even mentioned our guy from true detective.
Finn Bennett is here as Cole Atwood, the American certainly here. He is here.
He is present. Not bringing all the heat that he brought to True Detective for sure, but he's present.
Once again, dazzling with his American accent. This was such a moment for me this year when he was cast in the Duncan Egg series.
And I was like, that kid is English? I thought he was from Alaska. What are we talking about? A native Alaskan.
Anyway, Cole Atwood, but he does say to Helen, I know who you are. Right.
So like that feels very season two set up E and then also like the ongoing Michael saga potentially. I often am like, I'm not sure about a season two.
This show really needs to prove to me that I'm like, give me a season two and give it to me next Christmas. I demand this be, stay a Christmas show and I want one every Christmas, please.
I would love to stick with the Christmas theme. Joe Barton has talked about, he's already in the process of writing a second series.
Already toying with the idea of like, does it need to be Christmas? Should it be another holiday? Like I, I love the Christmas theme personally. And I, I agree with you.
They, they are clearly seeding so many different things for a potential season two. The ones you mentioned I'm mostly into the one thing we haven't really talked about.
And probably for good reason is this like Hector loose end of the kid that Sam was supposed to kill. Who's now an adult drug dealer.
And then they have this whole Showdown where he doesn't kill him again And now he might be working for him in a potential Season 2 No thank you on basically any of that That was so strange I was just sort of like Why are you letting this kid Toss you around Also that the actor Is the actor who played a young Prince Harry in the crowd. And I was like,

Oh,

this kid,

this kid.

I can't.

Um,

yeah,

you're right.

You're right.

That was,

that was another sort of pitch to season two.

Joe Barton,

if you're listening,

hope you're not maybe,

but like,

if you're listening,

cause I hope you're busy writing season two.

Um,

that's the one.

That's why we shouldn't be watching listening to this podcast.

We need,

we need this to be a Christmas show and with love and respect to Easter in

London.

Um,

I don't know. I hope you're busy writing season two.
That's the one. That's why we shouldn't be listening to this podcast.
We need this to be a Christmas show. And with love and respect to Easter in London, I need this Black Dump season two one year later at Christmas.
I need at least one hall decked in season two. You know, if you want to be Christmas plus, if Christmas into New Year's, like I'm into, that's totally fine.
But halls must be decked. Michaelmas, you can miss me with Michaelmas.
So yeah, that is Black Doves. If you listened to all of this and you haven't watched it yet, you should probably go watch it.
I would say so, yeah. We've maybe spoiled some things or this all sounded like gibberish to you.
A reminder that our producer Kai Grady is the best. A reminder that Justin Sales has been doing a ton of work on this feed, particularly with the launch of the YouTube channel.
So another reminder, smash that subscribe button on the, on the ringer TV, uh, YouTube feed, email us, PrestigeGV at Spotify.com. If you have a, what, what we missed, uh, or, or what you think we should be have what we missed or what you think we should be covering or what you think we should be watching or catching up on email.
So PrestigeTV at Spotify.com. We are recording that next week, so you don't have a ton of time.
So just like first thing that comes to mind, shoot us an email. Get them in post haste.
Post haste. And then bring our at spotify.com if you have a mailbag question for CR or yours truly.

We'll be back with more coverage of the agency as you requested with our year-end episode

and lots more in the new year.

Bye.