America’s Casino Economy — with Kyla Scanlon

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Speaker 2 Episode 371. 371 is the country coach for Latvia.
In 1971, Starbucks opened its first store in Seattle. True story, I've gotten really into VR.

Speaker 2 And like many technologies, the first great real application is porn. And I tell you, you cannot get over how immersive it is.
I got totally lost in this porn film in VR.

Speaker 2 Unfortunately, I forgot I was out of Starbucks.

Speaker 2 Go, go, go!

Speaker 2 Welcome to the 371st episode of The Prop GPOC. What's happening? I'm home in London now, but heading to New York soon to kick off my press tour for our latest book, Notes on Being a Man.
And

Speaker 2 truth be told, I'm looking forward to getting to New York and I'm looking forward to seeing friends, but we're doing

Speaker 2 literally everything from The View to Morning Joe to Bill Maher.

Speaker 2 And quite frankly, I'm intimidated. I'm just really wanting it to be over.
I want to do really well. And I guess that's good.
That's part of it.

Speaker 2 But I have, I wouldn't call it anxiety, but I'm not, I'm more intimidated. And

Speaker 2 it's sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. I know this book is going to sell a lot.
And I know that sounds arrogant, but I usually have a feel for this stuff.

Speaker 2 And again, more lucky than good, the timing is right.

Speaker 2 This is a conversation that's sort of evolving and pivoting from, okay, the manosphere where some really ugly voices entered into the void, to the far right's credit or to the rights' credit.

Speaker 2 They recognized the problem before other people. They said something is wrong in Mudville.

Speaker 2 The problem was their answer was to regress to the 50s where non-whites and women had much less power, much less agency. That's not the answer.
And then to

Speaker 2 start these weird fucking videos from Tucker Carlson or

Speaker 2 nominate for president people who conflate masculinity with cruelty and coarseness. So that's not correct either.

Speaker 2 So I think there's an understandable, or has been an understandable gag reflex anytime you start talking about the crisis of young men or the crisis young men are facing.

Speaker 2 My producer says, what is the point of the book? I'll give you sort of a distillation, and that is I think that young people really benefit from a code.

Speaker 2 And that is you have to make hundreds, if not thousands, of decisions every day, big and small. And it's difficult to make these decisions just floating in space and responding to them real time.

Speaker 2 And where where do you get this code? You can get it from your religion. You can get it from the military.
You can get it even from your corporation. You can get it from your parents.

Speaker 2 What does that mean? It means you should immediately feel that that physical strength is used to help others, to protect others.

Speaker 2 So let me get to what I think are sort of the three legs of the stool of basically masculinity and one overarching theme. Provider, protector, and procreator.
Provider.

Speaker 2 I think in a capitalist economy, every man should at the outset, as a young man, assume that he is going to need to take economic responsibility for him and his family.

Speaker 2 And by the way, sometimes that means getting out of the way and being more supportive of your partner who's better at the money thing than you.

Speaker 2 I think we have to, from a very young age, teach boys that the greatest demonstration of strength is protection. And it's not just physical.
People are bad-mouthing someone else.

Speaker 2 Your default is to protect them and to defend them. Finally, procreation.

Speaker 2 I think we need to celebrate a young man's horniness, his desire to have sex, his desire to have a partnership.

Speaker 2 One of the key attributes of a man that will, that will yield dividends is their ability to establish friendships, express friendship, but also demonstrate and communicate romantic interest.

Speaker 2 And here's the key part, while making that person feel safe. But real mating and real interest begins in person.
I went to Temple and I saw how kind he was.

Speaker 2 I worked with him and saw how outstanding he was at what he does. I hung out with him and just found that he was funny and nice and responsible and wasn't an idiot staying out late.

Speaker 2 He went home because he had a plan. I always felt safe around him.

Speaker 2 Providing, protecting, procreating. And what does it all add up to? What is the litmus test for when a boy becomes a man? It has nothing to do with age.

Speaker 2 I know a lot of males that have never become men. It has nothing to do with a religious ceremony.
It certainly doesn't have anything to do with sex. What it has to do with is one term: surplus value.

Speaker 2 You witness people's lives.

Speaker 2 If you are able to someday, towards the end, think, I loved so many people so much that while I received a great deal of love back, I go out on the plus side of this column.

Speaker 2 I have achieved surplus value. Then you leave this earth a man.

Speaker 2 All right, enough of that. In today's episode, we speak with Kyla Scanlon, an economic commentator, educator, and best-selling author of In This Economy, How Money and Markets Really Work.

Speaker 2 We discuss with Kyla Trump's casino economy, what to make of the AI bubble, and why the markets no longer reflect reality. So with that, here's our conversation with Kyla Scanlon.

Speaker 2 Kyla, where does this podcast find you?

Speaker 4 I'm actually in Florida right now, Marco Island.

Speaker 2 Marco Island? Wait, you have grandparents or parents who vacation in Florida? No?

Speaker 4 What's going on? No, no. I'm here for the equipment, leasing, and finance conference.
Yeah. No, Michael Philip.

Speaker 2 I heard it's a crazy party. Has it gotten out of control yet? The ELF party?

Speaker 4 Yeah, Michael Phelps is here today. So it's fun.
Yeah, I spoke yesterday, so I'm leaving later today, but that is where you find me is Marco Island. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Thank you for being here. We wanted to bring you on because you had

Speaker 2 what was, I thought, a really interesting and provocative

Speaker 2 piece in the New York Times arguing that the American economy is really a Trump casino, you said. Can you walk us through that thesis?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so that piece, you know, the economy has always been somewhat of a casino, but underneath the Trump administration, like there's a lot more room for gambling.

Speaker 4 Like you could see tariffs as a gamble on the American economy that our allies will want to continue to work with us, that the dollar will remain stable.

Speaker 4 But then, also in private markets, you're seeing a lot of gambling-esque things too. Like private credit is looking a little bit shaky, venture capital firms are funding like debt roulette startups.

Speaker 4 And then, of course, you have the AI bubble that everybody is talking about right now.

Speaker 4 So, it just feels like everywhere you turn around from the government shutdown to the stock market, like gambling has become the status quo.

Speaker 2 Do you think I'm trying to reverse engineer this to something very basic, and that is

Speaker 2 so I would argue that geopolitics is just

Speaker 2 an administration that's somewhat ignorant and hasn't done the game theory and overestimates their power at the poker table. They show up with cards that they don't actually have.

Speaker 2 And that's, I would call that poor judgment. I'm not sure it's gambling.

Speaker 2 But at the same time, on the other end, what I see is a lot of young people who are constantly reminded every day that they're failing because they don't have

Speaker 2 ripped abs or aren't on a Gulfstream or didn't make 300% yesterday on some meme coin.

Speaker 2 And they believe that that is a normal part of the economy, taking these sorts of crazy outsized risks and are engaging in it. And they have access to this type of risk-taking in their pocket.

Speaker 2 As someone who is younger, have you done any research or any thoughts about how this it strikes me this gambling economy seems to be especially prevalent among your generation? Your thoughts?

Speaker 4 Yeah, John Cohen wrote a great book that came out a few months ago about the rise of sports gambling. And so he did a lot of on-the-ground reporting with young people.

Speaker 4 Like one of his primary interviews was an early 20s person named Kyle, who was living in Colorado, who had had his life destroyed by gambling. And so you do see a lot of people go towards that path.

Speaker 4 Like one of the theories that I've been testing is that there's this idea that young people have like zero risk tolerance or like all the risk tolerance.

Speaker 4 So you see, you know, Gen Z becoming the tool belt generation, going back to the trades. I think that's primarily to reduce risk.

Speaker 4 Like when I talk to people who are going down that path, they're like, I don't think a college degree is going to pay off. So I'm just going to take this staple job at the factory.

Speaker 4 And then you see other young people who are going into meme coins. They're going into sports betting.
They're, you know, vetting it all on companies that are doing AI things.

Speaker 4 And so it has become increasingly prevalent, I think, because people are just grasping for straws to try and climb the economic ladder.

Speaker 2 You outlined three likely outcomes for this casino economy, the more probable one being that we see smaller crises unfolding as low growth persists through a series of disparate shocks.

Speaker 2 Do you see any kind of initial signs of the trouble that you're monitoring in this casino economy?

Speaker 4 I mean, lots of people are starting to talk about private credit. I think that's a bit concerning.
Like we're seeing some of the auto lenders start to go bankrupt. First brands, Tri-Color.

Speaker 4 JP Morgan lost, I think, $175 million on that company going under.

Speaker 4 Primalend. So you're starting to see some ruptures begin to happen in the private market where all of this risk was

Speaker 4 taken on and there was like zero regulation, which is always a recipe for disaster. So I think we're starting to see that begin to show up.

Speaker 4 And then I think we're starting to see young people begin to suffer from the consequences of the unfettered access to gambling, which you talk a lot about as well.

Speaker 4 And so I think we are starting to see some of these pain pockets begin to pop up for sure.

Speaker 2 What do you think of these predictions, markets? Like, what do you, one, as businesses, and two, as a reflection on our kind of society and economy?

Speaker 4 I mean, I think it is kind of like gamble on everything. It's,

Speaker 4 I don't know, like, I think the idea makes sense. And, like, if you're trying to find consensus for information,

Speaker 4 I think that makes sense. And, like, sure.

Speaker 4 But I think what they incentivize is people finding some sort of way to gamble on everything.

Speaker 4 Like, one of the comments underneath my New York Times article on Twitter was like, How can I bet on how many views this article is going to get?

Speaker 4 And so, I think everybody is just seeing the world through the lens of gambling, which is not a very stable or well-structured society.

Speaker 4 And when I say everybody, obviously, like I'm, you know, being dramatic, it's not everybody, but it is a lot of people. Because again, it seems like the one way to make money is to bet on everything.

Speaker 4 And that's concerning.

Speaker 2 Do you think some of it, and again,

Speaker 2 this really is a question looking for illumination and

Speaker 2 potentially pushback. But I wonder if some of it is

Speaker 2 kind of our role models for a younger generation.

Speaker 2 When I think about the president is always going to be a role model, whether we want him to be or not, and the wealthiest person in the world in a capitalist society.

Speaker 2 And both of these individuals, it feels like they're sort of conflating or creating an image where you can easily conflate masculinity and leadership.

Speaker 2 with being incredibly aggressive and incredibly risk aggressive, like doing things that have never been done before, saying things that have never been done before, shooting a rocket into space that scissors can capture.

Speaker 2 I mean, there's a positive side to this risk aggression, but it feels as if our leaders are no longer measured in any way, that they're taking these outsize risks.

Speaker 2 And that sort of thing, is that potentially what's going on here, that our role models are just more risk-aggressive from, you know, any angle?

Speaker 4 I think a little bit. And like, not all risk is bad.
Like, in order to grow an economy, you know, you have to be able to catch a spaceship inside of scissors. You have to take on some element of risk.

Speaker 4 But I think, like, the risk that is being encouraged now, like, when you look at the president, just objectively, like the guy bankrupted because he knows like he took on a ton of risk.

Speaker 4 And what, you know, that wasn't always successful, but he had like some form of a safety net to catch him.

Speaker 4 Whereas a lot of people who are taking on risk now are doing it because they have no safety net.

Speaker 4 And so I think people are looking at the billionaires, maybe soon-to-be trillionaires and saying, like, okay, they took these big leaps, like they figured it out. Like, hopefully, I can do that too.

Speaker 4 But the path is not always that clear, and it's not that stable. And that those people had a lot of help along the way.

Speaker 4 But I do think it encourages behavior that might not be conducive to cohesiveness. Like, when we think about Twitter and, you know, even just like quote-unquote taking a risk on saying something

Speaker 4 polarizing on Twitter, like a lot of people are monetizing their accounts that way.

Speaker 4 So, yeah, that sort of gambling mindset applies to both money and to communication.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell,

Speaker 2 we now have 10 companies responsible or make up 40% of the SP. The SP is 50% of global market cap.
So 10 companies are now arguably 20% of the world's value, at least in the public markets.

Speaker 2 That to me feels like a concentration of risk that typically we didn't like to have or tolerate. What are your thoughts on the concentration of value across a small number of companies?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I don't think it's great because also it's, you know, 40% of GDP growth is coming from the AI companies.

Speaker 4 And the 20% of companies that you reference are like primarily dabbling in AIs, the big tech companies. And, you know, there's 75% of SP 500 earnings growth.

Speaker 4 And so like our whole economy is becoming this like really big, risky bet on AI.

Speaker 4 But when you think about, you know, the jobs that we're adding, they're primarily in healthcare and social services, at least the last time that we got data from the government.

Speaker 4 And so like these companies are taking on more and more value.

Speaker 4 They're growing bigger and bigger, but they're maybe not adding to the economy in a way that we would expect outside of building data centers. Like, data centers don't add that many jobs.

Speaker 4 You don't need that many people building them.

Speaker 4 Like, what the U.S. needs is jobs.
And so, I worry about that.

Speaker 4 Like, I think I do worry about the concentration risk, especially when we think about 401ks and people who are going to try to retire soon.

Speaker 4 Like, all of the onus of their retirement is on them, and therefore, it's on the SP 500 continuing to succeed.

Speaker 4 And then, I also worry about about these companies really just sucking the life out of the market and then not contributing to the economy in a way of a growing labor market.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I parrot a comment you made that just sort of summarized the economy right now. You said America is essentially a giant bet on AI.
And I thought that was just such a kind of cogent

Speaker 2 distillation of what's going on right now. My sense of history is the stuff you're expecting to go right oftentimes doesn't, and the stuff you're expecting to go wrong oftentimes doesn't.

Speaker 2 Like upticks in the market are from areas we weren't expecting and crises, you know, 9-11 and COVID, very few people were predicting those things.

Speaker 2 If you were, if someone said to you at your conference, Kyla, do you think it's a good time or a bad time to invest in this AI economy? What are your thoughts?

Speaker 4 I mean, what I've been telling people, and obviously, like, it's not investment advice, but I still think it's important important to have some exposure to the companies. Not all exposure.

Speaker 4 Like, that's kind of one of the issues with younger investors: like, 70% of their portfolio will be in tech companies, which is like

Speaker 4 a decent rule of thumb. But with the concentration risk, I think it's pretty dangerous.

Speaker 4 And so, a lot of investment advisors will advise you to diversify across gold, across utility companies, across things that are a little bit more stable,

Speaker 4 across international companies, too. So, not having your

Speaker 4 whole portfolio just exposed domestic. So I think that's like one way to navigate the uncertainty and, you know, the potential bubble popping that we might have.

Speaker 4 So that's, that's been a good rule of thumb.

Speaker 2 What does Kyla Scanlon do with her money? How do you invest? What's your approach to investing?

Speaker 4 Yeah, Kyla Scanlon does what I just said. So yeah, that's what I do.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Primarily.
And then I, you know, I've been taking advantage of high yield savings accounts as well.

Speaker 4 You know, the Fed is probably going to cut rates, so that's going to get less and less exciting. But when rates were high, that was pretty cool.

Speaker 4 But yeah, no, I'm pretty exposed across ETFs. I'm a very boring, very plain vanilla investor.
I, you know, put aside 20 bucks a month toward the S ⁇ P.

Speaker 4 And then I've been investing more and more in gold.

Speaker 4 With the recent run-up in gold, that's been a bit like, oh, this feels a little dangerous too, which is crazy that like people are looking at gold as something that's too risky to invest in.

Speaker 4 I have some exposure to crypto as well. So I just try to like have a diversification as one of the only free lunches in investing, as they say.
So I try to take advantage of that.

Speaker 2 And do you buy the thesis that the surge in gold and the increase in crypto over the last couple of years is essentially the debasement of the dollar and trust in America?

Speaker 4 I mean, that's, you know, that's an interesting topic that a lot of people have gone back and forth on. I mean, crypto is a levered NASDAQ, so I don't think you can really say that about crypto.

Speaker 4 It's been unfortunate to watch that industry lose itself. And I used to work in crypto and thought it could be something really cool.
And I just think it's become also a part of the gambling economy.

Speaker 4 But with regards to gold, I think the interesting thing there is that China is really trying to become the place where people park their gold reserves to kind of navigate around the US US dollar, saying, like, hey, everybody, like invest in gold and then invest that gold with us.

Speaker 4 And I think that might work in some regards, because I do think people might be trying to find some alternative to the dollar. I think that's going to take a long time if that does eventually happen.

Speaker 4 But I think there's some element of truth in people trying to not have as much exposure to the US.

Speaker 2 You said a couple of things I want you to unpack there, that crypto has levered NASDAQ. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 And then secondly, you said you were in crypto, but you think the industry has lost itself. Say more about that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, I'm not the first person to call crypto levered NASDAQ. It's essentially like the way that tech stocks move.
Crypto will move like three times bigger.

Speaker 4 So if tech has a big sell-off, then crypto will have a gigantic sell-off.

Speaker 4 If tech moves up, crypto will move up. It's interesting because, you know, now JP Morgan is allowing institutional clients to use Bitcoin and Ethereum as collateral.

Speaker 4 So there is like that institutional backing to crypto, but that also means it tends to trade a bit like tech stocks because institutions have sort of flattened it and like flattened the moves.

Speaker 4 So I just think it's like not any different than tech, which is probably a very unpopular opinion.

Speaker 4 But to the point that I used to work in crypto, yeah, I used to work with several crypto companies and thought it was really great.

Speaker 4 A lot of my very early writing was about crypto and kind of about what it would look like to have the future of finance like what decentralized finance could look like you know what it could look like to sort of build this online world that was uh had its own form of money and yeah i mean when you even think about bitcoin like the original proposal was a payments to pay like a person to person payment system and i don't think it really can be that just because it's so speculative so it's not necessarily a bad thing it's just i don't know if crypto knows what it what it is it's definitely not a currency it's just an asset and you feel as if it's sort of lost itself, or it sounds like your tone was you've soured a little bit on the industry.

Speaker 2 Why?

Speaker 4 This is just one of the things that happens when people get really, really, really rich is they forget what they're doing something for.

Speaker 4 And I think a lot of people in crypto, you know, saw tremendous wealth.

Speaker 4 And I think you can kind of lose the plot when all of that money comes pouring in and you might forget the mission of what you're originally doing.

Speaker 4 I think Ethereum has kept to the plot pretty closely. Like Vitalik, one of the founders, seems pretty focused on what he wants that thing to be.

Speaker 4 But that's not, you know, that's not the whole industry.

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Speaker 2 What are you seeing when you look at economic economic data? What do you think are the biggest stories unfolding that get the least amount of coverage relative to the impact they might have?

Speaker 2 What are we not talking about that we should be talking about? Everyone's ⁇ I feel like we're on to kind of the AI bubble.

Speaker 2 There's a lot of media around that. This reminds me of 1997, and that is everyone had consensus we were in an internet bubble, and the NASDAQ went up another 100%.

Speaker 2 It's when everyone decides we're in a new model and it's different this time and maybe all rules, you know, all bets or the rules have been broken that's when you need to watch out so i i feel like the ai quote-unquote bubble has been covered what are you saying in your data and your research that you don't think is getting enough coverage so you think we're in 1997 right now relative to the ai bubble the good news is when you're my age you have some historical perspective the bad news is you have historical perspective and that is you want to make your life easier with pattern recognition and the reality is most of these patterns are you know they they history does repeat itself.

Speaker 2 Well, what is it? It doesn't, it, you know, it rhymes. It doesn't repeat.
I see a lot of similarities. These circular deals really worry me.

Speaker 2 You know, NVIDIA investing $100 billion in a company with the agreement, they're going to buy their chips.

Speaker 2 And that is accretive in the short run, but setting up kind of a house of cards in terms of capital structure, capital formation, I see euphoria.

Speaker 2 But at the same time, it's different this time in the sense that these companies, their earnings growth hasn't matched their PE expansion, but it's pretty strong.

Speaker 2 These are real companies with real cash flows. But what I was referring to is that the economists called the dot bomb implosion perfectly.

Speaker 2 They said how it would start, why it would happen, the damage it would do. Problem is, they called it in 1997.

Speaker 2 And from that point, if you'd stayed in internet stocks, you would have made a ton of money. Now, granted, you would have given it all back.

Speaker 2 But I don't,

Speaker 2 you know, what I have come to believe is that when

Speaker 2 everyone, when all economists agree on something, you should go the other way.

Speaker 2 And it feels like all economists, at least right now, are saying AI is somewhat overvalued, which lends me to believe that, okay, it's probably going to run further.

Speaker 2 I mean, every instinct in my body is saying sell all stocks right now.

Speaker 2 But typically, when I have that emotion, a lot of people are having that emotion, and it's not the thing to do.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, I see echoes of it. But the reality is

Speaker 2 I don't trust my gut on this stuff

Speaker 2 a lot because I try to be emotionalist and do what you're doing. And that is just be diversified and not try to time the market and not try and convince yourself you're smarter than the market.

Speaker 2 But are there things out there that, you know,

Speaker 2 it's the iceberg you don't see that takes the ship down. Are there things you see that we're not talking about?

Speaker 4 I mean, yeah, I agree with you that everybody's talking about the AI bubble and how bad it could be if it all explodes because it is such a big part of the economy.

Speaker 4 You know, 40% of GDP growth is no joke. But I think like a lot of people are talking about it, but the government shutdown, I feel like, has not.
Like, we're kind of like, oh no, it's still shut down.

Speaker 4 And we're, it's like about to be the second, I think it is the second longest shutdown ever.

Speaker 4 And, you know, a bunch of people, 40 million people are about to lose access to food stamps.

Speaker 4 And I just think like

Speaker 4 there's such a clear distinction. And I'm curious if it was the same way in the 1990s.
There's such a clear distinction and divergence between the stock market and the economy.

Speaker 4 So, like, with the government shutdown, like, that's severely affecting the economy, but you have this huge run-up in stocks. And I think a lot of people are kind of covering that idea.

Speaker 4 But when we talk about the AI bubble, I don't think we necessarily talk about that idea. It's more like, oh no, NVIDIA gave OpenAI $100 billion, billion, zillion dollars.

Speaker 4 So was it like that in the 1990s too? Like that, did you feel that divergence between the two?

Speaker 2 It's a really thoughtful question.

Speaker 2 You know, in the 90s, I was building internet companies and not that thoughtful or I didn't have much situational awareness beyond the e-commerce company I was running trying to raise money for and trying to hire people.

Speaker 2 I didn't think a lot about big picture societal issues. Also, we just didn't have the concentration of wealth.
We didn't have, it felt like a more gentle time.

Speaker 2 It was George Bush, who looked soft and cuddly back then, although progressives thought he was evil incarnate. Now we look back and think, God, he was so adorable and so nice.

Speaker 2 And there wasn't nearly the polarization. And also, we didn't have, we were blessed with a lack of social media showing.

Speaker 2 I mean, social media has figured out that I'm a progressive and that every video they show me of a mass person from ICE separating a woman from her husband knows I'm going to be so fucking enraged that I'm not going to be able to look away from the phone.

Speaker 2 And so I don't know how much,

Speaker 2 you know, there's an an interesting statement, another statement I love is that we're not that divided, but we have the most powerful companies in the world trying to divide us.

Speaker 2 So it is different. I don't envy people of your generation whose media consumption is so anxiety-ridden, is so trying to tune you up,

Speaker 2 to enrage you such that you'll be engaged. One, where does someone like you get the majority of your information? What is your media diet?

Speaker 2 And have you found, and this is more of a question around the psychological impact, but have you found that it takes a toll on you and people your age,

Speaker 2 and I don't, I can't figure out if I'm just getting older and angrier or more depressed, but I literally have to have self-imposed blackouts from the media now because I find the algorithms are purposely trying to take me down really, really ugly rabbit holes.

Speaker 2 Anyways, your media diet and thoughts on the impact on your generation?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, my media diet is I read a lot of the

Speaker 4 major news publications, so New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg.

Speaker 4 I also love the other magazines like N Plus One, Phenomenal World. So I read a lot, but I also use Twitter a lot.
And it's been, or X.

Speaker 4 So, and that's been like the biggest bummer in the world is that used to be such a place for economists and finance people to really get together and like talk about ideas.

Speaker 4 Like it used to be, you know, this place to really connect. And even back in 2021.
And now it's, it's not. It's like so polarized and the algorithm is being tweaked to totally fry everybody.

Speaker 4 And so I definitely see that with a lot of young people.

Speaker 4 And I have an account that I've tuned to be quite

Speaker 4 conservative.

Speaker 4 So this is like a bot, like a burner account that I don't post or anything, but I just view that account to make sure I'm not missing anything because my feed is also, you know, pretty attuned to what Democrats are up to or the center left or center right.

Speaker 4 And yeah, this account is very MAGA-oriented and it's wild, like the amount of rage bait that that account gets served.

Speaker 4 And it's pretty concerning. And so I also have to make sure that I don't fall down a rabbit hole because one thing that's really tough about these big companies is that they weaponize empathy, right?

Speaker 4 And so a lot of people are pretty good-hearted and they just want to help, and they just want to make sure everybody's doing okay.

Speaker 4 And that's when you can get in trouble is because you watch these videos or you read these things, like trying to understand, trying to figure out how you can help.

Speaker 4 And that's really when it becomes dangerous because you, you know, I think a lot of people care so much that they go a little bit crazy. And so, I have to really watch myself with that kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 Yeah, as I think it sounds like you do too.

Speaker 2 You mentioned the fissure, the growing disparity between kind of the Wall Street economy and the real economy.

Speaker 2 We've said on the show that the Dow Jones and the NASDAQ have been just incredibly damaging metrics because they give people the illusion that things are okay, oftentimes when they're not.

Speaker 2 And as long as the NASDAQ goes up, or my thesis is as long as the NASDAQ keeps going up, the president can send troops into American cities and get away with it.

Speaker 2 Curious to get your thoughts on these metrics and also what metrics you look at that you think are better indicators of the health of, quote-unquote, the real economy.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I wrote this piece on my newsletter a few weeks ago called AI is a stock market and the stock market is the government.

Speaker 4 It's sort of that idea where the government or yeah, the government has a lot of latitude if the stock market continues to go up.

Speaker 4 Like if the market was selling off right now, he would not be allowed to send troops onto the street. I think Congress would have a lot more pressure to reopen the government.
And

Speaker 4 because the stock market is so disconnected from any sense of reality, we're actually in, I think, deeper trouble than we should be.

Speaker 4 And it's, it's, uh, yeah, it's like wild to watch this stuff where it's like, oh, AI earnings are going to continue to go up. Like, stock market's going to go up forever.
It's just so bizarre to me.

Speaker 4 And even, you know, we got this inflation data the other day, even though the government shut down, they brought back a small team of the BLS because we needed to readjust social security payments according to inflation.

Speaker 4 And the stock market rallied on the idea that inflation was somewhat going down, even though it's still 3% year over year, that the Federal Reserve is going to cut rates.

Speaker 4 It was like, woohoo, everything's going well, even though people can't find jobs. Inflation is still very high, and the Fed is cutting into that.

Speaker 4 And so, yeah, I think like the metrics that I try to pay attention to, it's a lot of anecdotes right now because we don't have data. And I know that's always a bit dangerous, but

Speaker 4 I post videos about the economy almost every day on social media. And a lot of people message me and tell me what they're feeling and what they're paying attention to and what they're worried about.

Speaker 4 And so I kind of absorb all of that and try to get a better sense. But then, in terms of like real data, the Chicago Fed has some real-time labor market indicators that are pretty useful.

Speaker 4 It pulls from public and private data. And so I found that to be helpful.
There isn't an inflation metric that I've found to be super good outside of the numbers that we get from BLS.

Speaker 4 So I'm still trying to piece that together.

Speaker 4 And yeah, and then I think another interesting thing is when we think about the stock market, it's important to look at the number of companies that are booming that have no revenue.

Speaker 4 So a lot of the boom in the stock market right now is being led by these companies that don't have a lot of profits. You know, they have essentially no revenue.

Speaker 4 And I think that's a good indicator for the actual underlying health of the stock market and the fact that it's not being led by fundamentals.

Speaker 4 And it tells a different story than like the Dow Jones going up. It's like, why is the Dow Jones going up?

Speaker 4 It's because these companies that aren't making money are going up because people are gambling on them.

Speaker 2 The administration trying to interfere with the Fed, what feels like socialism or government intervention or attempted influence on private markets, picking companies they invest in or wanting a golden share in U.S.

Speaker 2 deal.

Speaker 2 Tariffs, which is when I was in graduate school and I was a graduate student instructor in macro and microeconomics, it was just a case study.

Speaker 2 And look at how stupid we were at one point in history with tariffs.

Speaker 2 I'm surprised. I'm curious if you're surprised.
Are you surprised the economy is as strong or not as bad? I would have thought the economy would not be holding up the way it is right now.

Speaker 2 What are your thoughts?

Speaker 4 You thought it would have imploded because of the tariffs or just because of everything else going on?

Speaker 2 Fear around lack of independence of the Fed, tariffs,

Speaker 2 a move towards a cross between socialism and cronyism. I just think all of these things, to me, the market would have had a stronger gag reflex.

Speaker 2 And the numbers, to be fair, a lot of the underlying numbers are concerning, but a lot of them are stronger than I think people were expecting.

Speaker 2 The inflation number is not good, but it's not terrible.

Speaker 2 You know, there's the AI boom. I keep reading about this quote-unquote re-industrialization of America.
I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I keep reading about it.

Speaker 2 I don't know how much of it is just propaganda. But are you,

Speaker 2 what are your current thoughts on the state of the economy versus your expectations?

Speaker 2 And if you're comfortable talking about what you think might unfold in, say, 26.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, to the point of the reindustrialization of the economy, Iowa. a state that is very reliant on manufacturing is like essentially in a recession.

Speaker 4 So there's a really interesting map, and I cannot remember who made the map, but it showed the number of U.S.

Speaker 4 states that were in some type of economic contraction, and it was over half of them, I believe.

Speaker 4 And so I think when we like zoom in on these individual cases, like states that were really reliant on manufacturing actually working out,

Speaker 4 you see

Speaker 4 a lot of that not happening. Like one of the things that Trump did promise was that he would bring manufacturing back to the U.S.

Speaker 4 And the way that he's doing that is through tariffs, which is not that intuitive, right? Ideally, you would use a carrot instead of a stick method in order to bring people back.

Speaker 4 And it takes a long time to rebuild manufacturing. And so you do see these pockets of pain for these

Speaker 4 places that overwhelmingly did vote for Trump. And the longer the government stays shut down, like a lot of these red states that voted for Trump, they're heavily reliant on the social safety net.

Speaker 4 Like they're reliant on food stamps, they're reliant on Medicaid, the thing that is being the reason the government shut down, right? Healthcare.

Speaker 4 And yeah, I think it's going to get more and more painful because people need those things.

Speaker 4 People need an economy that works outside of AI.

Speaker 4 Like, they need jobs that are more than just a data center. And the argument there is that, like, the economy has always gone through some turmoil with technology.

Speaker 4 Like, nails used to be 0.5% of GDP, like hammer and nails back in the 1800s.

Speaker 4 And so like there's always some shift, but I think like this, this, and I'm curious what you think about this, like the combination that we have right now of political turmoil and technological turmoil is like quite pronounced.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 it seems the way that politics are unfolding just objectively, as you said, is like pretty destructive, just net on net. Like it's harmful.

Speaker 4 And I think the market is ignoring that because of the AI stuff. It's like, okay, who cares if like the economy implodes outside of AI as long as AI succeeds because it'll take over everything.

Speaker 4 And so I think that's a divergence, but like this transitional time, if it does end up working, is really painful. But like, how do you sort of see that combination of politics and technology?

Speaker 4 Like, do you think they're feeding off of each other in a harmful way or protecting the economy?

Speaker 2 Well, I would bifurgate them. I don't think you can get in the way of innovation, and that is AI is going to replace a lot of jobs.

Speaker 2 I actually think automation and GLP-1 are perhaps even more impactful technologies than, you know, I just wrote a post saying I think GLP-1 is more impactful on the real economy than

Speaker 2 GPT-5.

Speaker 2 I just think people reducing their

Speaker 2 fat economy or the diabetes industrial complex is just enormous right now.

Speaker 2 And if people, you know, if GLP-1 were to permeate the households, like I think it's possible, I think that's going to have a bigger impact on people's lives.

Speaker 2 And quote unquote, we were talking about before the real economy. I think my paw, I don't know where you are, but with Trump, I just don't get these policies.

Speaker 2 I'm trying to figure out it's as if if I wanted to elegantly really screw the economy for the mid and the long term and reduce our prosperity inch by inch every day, I think this is a genius playbook.

Speaker 2 Tariffs, cronyism, lack of respect for rule of law.

Speaker 2 We're going to place tariffs on people.

Speaker 2 Young people feel bad because they can't buy a home. So what are we going to do? We're going to tariff drywall gypsum from Mexico and lumber from Canada and make building houses more expensive.

Speaker 2 I just don't. It's as if they look at every pain point and say, how can we rub salt in the wound of this pain? So I don't.

Speaker 2 I have a difficult time understanding any of the rational or logic behind this or that there isn't, quite frankly, more sort of small revolutions in our society.

Speaker 2 What I would, you said something there that I thought was really powerful, and I want to pose on, and that is America needs an economy outside of AI. I think that's really powerful.

Speaker 2 And what you were saying before about data centers not having that, not needing that many people to build them, they need even less people to operate them.

Speaker 2 They don't even need to turn the lights on during the day. There's just no one's needed there.
The story I'd love to get your feedback on that I think is the really big story right now is Amazon.

Speaker 2 I don't know if you saw this. Amazon just announced they're laying off 30,000 corporate jobs.

Speaker 2 And I got to think when they announce it, they're going to, there was this seminal earnings score that I can't get over or recall about three quarters ago.

Speaker 2 It was Meta saying they'd increase their revenues 23% while decreasing

Speaker 2 headcount by 20%.

Speaker 2 I don't think any company's ever done that because generally the way it works is if you're growing, you tell your head of HR to hire more people.

Speaker 2 And I've said that AI is corporate Ozempic and that it's turned the switch off among CEOs that they need to eat more or hire more to grow.

Speaker 2 And I think Amazon is about to have one of those quarters where it announces great earnings or great revenue growth with a huge destruction or decrease in costs, i.e. people being laid off.

Speaker 2 And their stock is going to surge. Their stock and their earnings are going to surge.

Speaker 2 That we're about to see this arbitrage of human capital arbed into greater earnings and a surge in some of these information-intensive companies.

Speaker 2 I think it's coming at Goldman, JPMorgan, all of those companies. Anyways, your thoughts on Amazon and this kind of labor destruction or

Speaker 2 the announcement they're laying off 30,000 people at corporate?

Speaker 4 UPS is doing the same thing. Like, I think they announced that they were going to cut 20,000 jobs.
And I don't know if it's at the corporate level, but they actually ended up cutting 34,000 instead.

Speaker 4 So even more.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and then Target, I think, is cutting a thousand jobs. GM is cutting a couple hundred jobs.
So, I think we are going to see more and more of that.

Speaker 4 And to the point of the investment banks, like all of the AI companies are launching their AI Excel, like Claude Anthropics Model just announced that. I think Perplexity has something like that too.

Speaker 4 I believe that one of the AI labs has employed former investment bankers to actually train an investment banking banking version of AI.

Speaker 4 And so I do think we are going to see the expedited attempt to replace humans, yeah, and at the corporate level too.

Speaker 4 Like that is one of the interesting things about AI as a technology is that normally technology replaces what we might call blue collar work, but this is going after white-collar work.

Speaker 4 It'll be interesting to see if it works. I mean, Klarna and Duolingo, they were some of the first companies to let people go and be like, we're going to replace everybody with AI.

Speaker 4 But then they had to hire people back because it doesn't always work that well. That's the other funny thing about AI is it needs quite a bit of nudging still.
It's still new technology. But

Speaker 4 so yeah, I think that's going to be very strange. And with that

Speaker 4 portion of the workforce being displaced, it'll be interesting to see how they respond politically. You know, what they start asking for, what they want.

Speaker 4 Right now, we have like zero regulation on AI, and so I think if this, if all the big companies start cutting their corporate workforce, we could sort of see a lot more groups begin to coalesce around the idea that there has to be some sort of human-ai partnership rather than companies just gutting people and giving jobs to technology.

Speaker 1 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2 We're back with more from Kyla Scanlon.

Speaker 2 We have our own problems. I mean, the stock market, the NASDAQ and the Dow Jones are doing really well, touching new highs, but it definitely feels like there's a lot of political division.

Speaker 2 People are more anxious.

Speaker 2 You know, it doesn't feel like the U.S. is a role model for the rest of the world, but I struggle to point to another economy that's doing better.

Speaker 2 Do you spend any time thinking about China or the European economy, who is doing well? Or also just a follow-up.

Speaker 2 I'd just love to know any thoughts you have about the state of the Chinese economy right now.

Speaker 4 China is really interesting. Like, China,

Speaker 4 have you heard of Breakneck, Dan Wang's new book?

Speaker 2 Yes, I have.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, he kind of captures it pretty well.
Like,

Speaker 4 China has like an engineer economy. The U.S.
has a lawyer economy. A lot of people have said that about other economies in the past.
Like, the U.S.

Speaker 4 has always been this sort of lawyerly economy relative to everybody else being an engineer economy. And I think that's pretty true.
Is that it feels like the U.S.

Speaker 4 is having all of this infighting, and then China's over there, like developing bullet trains, or I believe they just found like a cure for baldness or something like that.

Speaker 4 And so it seems like they're able to really capture technology and use it in a way that the US isn't, but like they have their own problems.

Speaker 4 Like they are also staring down a demographic crisis, right? And they also have the laugh-flat problem where a lot of their young people don't necessarily want to work.

Speaker 4 And so I think that's an economy that's really complicated and it works really well because it's a command economy.

Speaker 4 The US is not.

Speaker 4 And therefore, it tends to flounder. I think what's disappointing with the US right now is that we just have a bunch of money going into like the dumbest things possible.

Speaker 4 And that's pretty frustrating relative to China.

Speaker 4 Like China also also just announced that the people who post information about certain sectors on tech on social media have to have like degrees in the subjects that they're talking about on social media or else they get fined.

Speaker 4 And I think that could be really useful in terms of the polarization and the division that we see in the States is people actually being educated on the topics that they talk about.

Speaker 4 And so, yeah, I mean, I think Europe is like a different case. They've just been struggling for a really long time to find their footing, to grow.

Speaker 4 They are also suffering underneath the demographic crisis.

Speaker 4 Like, I think that's the thing that everybody's going to have to grapple with over the next couple of years as we have a rapidly aging population.

Speaker 4 The economy is going to have to change to accommodate that. All of these economies and economies rely on an influx of young people to continue to grow, as you've talked about.

Speaker 4 And I just, I don't know how we're going to fix that. Like, that's the number one thing.
That's the number one thing I worry about is is demographics. And both China and the U.S.

Speaker 4 are suffering from that.

Speaker 2 Specifically, the ratio of young to old is headed in the wrong direction. Do you think we can solve that with immigration?

Speaker 4 That's one way to solve it. It's, you know, immigration or having more babies.
Having more babies is hard to incentivize.

Speaker 4 You know, South Korea tried to pay people $1,000 and that didn't really work either. So immigration, high-skilled immigration is one way.

Speaker 4 The Economic Innovation Group has a good paper on high-skilled immigration and like how much it does add to the economy. It is a boom,

Speaker 4 paying taxes, adding to the local community.

Speaker 4 But yeah, the politics gets in the way with that.

Speaker 2 So I want to pivot and talk a little bit about kind of Scanlon Inc.

Speaker 2 And that is, I think a lot of young we have a lot of young people listen to Pot, and I think they probably have seen the ascent of your career and your relevance in the last 24 months.

Speaker 2 And I think that is really cool. Like, how did she do that?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 tips for what platforms have been, you know,

Speaker 2 breakthrough for you? What's worked? What hasn't? If someone thinks, I would like to be the Kyla Scanlon of art or

Speaker 2 fashion or of, you know, of

Speaker 2 engineering in Europe, whatever it is,

Speaker 2 I want to be a domain expert. I want to have relevance.
I want to be invited to conferences in Florida. Like, what,

Speaker 2 what has worked and what hasn't worked is you've developed this. You're essentially an entrepreneur.
I mean, it's my understanding is it's just you, or maybe, maybe not.

Speaker 2 That's just you.

Speaker 4 It's just me. It's just me.

Speaker 2 And you put out, that's extraordinary. The amount of content and the relevance you have as a sole proprietor is really extraordinary.

Speaker 2 Anyways, what advice would you have given yourself, your younger self, three or five years ago in terms of where you would have invested more and where you would have invested less?

Speaker 4 So I guess like very quickly, the way I got started was it was during the pandemic. So, I had moved from Kentucky, where I'm from, to Los Angeles to work at Capital Group.

Speaker 4 So, buy-side firm, you know, had majored in econ finance and data analytics and just really loved teaching and like wanted to get a PhD.

Speaker 4 But my professor told me to go corporate first, and I was like, that sounds great.

Speaker 4 Six months into that job, the pandemic hit, and I was all alone in this 350-square-foot apartment in Los Angeles, had no friends. And so, I started making videos.

Speaker 4 And the videos were weird.

Speaker 4 You know, they were skits where I was pretending to be Jerome Powell, which I don't know if anybody has ever done besides me. And

Speaker 4 I just really wanted people to understand the economy. And so I think like that is always my biggest piece of advice is like.

Speaker 4 do it in the way that feels very authentic to you.

Speaker 4 And so for me, it was like these really bizarre, strange skits where people were like, oh, I didn't know like you could have fun and talk about economics at the same time, which is what I was trying to do.

Speaker 4 And I just had a big, I still have a big passion for educating about the economy.

Speaker 4 I think it's a total disservice that we do to the public, sending them out into the world and not teaching them things. And so, I started my company officially four years ago now.

Speaker 4 So, I've been doing this for what feels like a long time, but really isn't even that long. And I just think it was consistency.
Like, I've posted posted almost every day

Speaker 4 since,

Speaker 4 and I've written, you know, hundreds and hundreds of articles. I wrote a whole book.

Speaker 4 So consistency, staying authentic to what you truly care about and messaging it in a way that feels relevant to you.

Speaker 4 And yeah, not letting the fear of being perceived get to you. Like I'm an introvert.

Speaker 4 It's funny, like my friends from when I was growing up or think it's so weird that I have this like public lifestyle because I do prefer to research.

Speaker 4 And so I think that's the biggest thing is like there is a whole big world out there. And there's people who want to see what you want to message.

Speaker 4 You just have to do it in a way that feels good for you.

Speaker 2 But if you last question, if you look at all of the distribution channels and platforms, whether it's YouTube or TikTok or Substack or your newsletter or books,

Speaker 2 stack rank the things that have worked the best for you. If you were to say to someone, all right, you have a limited amount of human capital.
This is what...

Speaker 2 So we started doing 15 years ago, me and my business partner, my old firm, L2, started doing these videos called Winners and Losers on YouTube. And it was just breakthrough for us.

Speaker 2 No one knew who I was. No one knew who L2 was.
People thought they were funny. Sounds a little bit like what you did with mimicking Jerome Powell.
So YouTube was seminal for us 10 or 15 years ago.

Speaker 2 What has been,

Speaker 2 what platform or medium has really worked for you?

Speaker 4 Well, what's disappointing is it was Twitter because that's where all the finance and econ people went to go hang out. It's not that anymore.
Don't post. I mean, still post on Twitter, but be careful.

Speaker 4 It's really become bad.

Speaker 4 Instagram Reels, like the discoverability on there, I know, you know, we kind of talk down on Mark Zuckerberg sometimes, but the platform is still pretty good for discoverability.

Speaker 4 YouTube is still, yeah, it's still, I mean, you have to, like, you got to, that's the thing

Speaker 4 you gotta eat from the

Speaker 4 worst. It's the worst, but um, it's a tool, it's a tool at the end of the day.
Social media is a tool.

Speaker 4 If you can interrupt somebody's scroll with like really good information, as you do about like markets, economy, culture, like that is worth it to go and use these platforms for what they provide.

Speaker 4 But Instagram reels, a lot of people have sub stacks now. I was had like one of the first sub stacks, I think, and that was really cool, like a decentralized newsletter.

Speaker 4 YouTube is still really powerful.

Speaker 4 podcasts are really powerful like uh that's i think a really good tool but yeah uh tick tock maybe not so much right now but it's still all the main platforms and kind of being in many places at once so i think they're all equal in that regard is you want to have as many touchstones as you can with people because they're all on different platforms

Speaker 2 um but it's it is a cumulative effect isn't it

Speaker 2 yeah sort of a flywheel

Speaker 2 yeah it is social media captures us all that way right that's scary Kyla Scanlon is an economic commentator, educator, and founder of BREAD, a financial education platform reaching millions through storytelling and analysis.

Speaker 2 She's also the best-selling author of In This Economy, How Money and Markets Really Work.

Speaker 2 So, Kyle, I think you are an inspiration. And one of the things I tell people is we were one of the

Speaker 2 I found you on TikTok, I think. And I remember forwarding, I think this was like two years ago.
I remember forwarding the TikTok to our producer saying, we have to have this woman on.

Speaker 2 She's just such a unique voice.

Speaker 1 And I love, one of the things I do like about these mediums is that raw talent does break through.

Speaker 2 You didn't have to go to CNBC or be a junior reporter at the Wall Street Journal for 15 years and finally get your shot and then get guest appearances on CNBC and then some, you know, at some point like 45 or 50, finally get your own platform.

Speaker 2 I really do think you're a case study and one of the more positive things around social media. And I'm so enjoying watching you have a, you know, your career ascend.

Speaker 2 I think it's just fantastic, and it's got to give a lot of young people a lot of confidence to kind of bust out on their own.

Speaker 2 Anyways, keep doing what you're doing, and very much appreciate your time today.

Speaker 4 Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 Algebra of happiness.

Speaker 2 Who controls the algorithms or do they control you?

Speaker 2 When I first got on social media probably 15 years ago, you post something and you see how many likes it gets.

Speaker 2 And it's really rewarding when you post something or a piece of content or a viewpoint that resonates. I still get very excited when I see,

Speaker 2 you know, I put out a stupid meme or statement and it gets 10 or 15,000 likes. It still feels really good.

Speaker 2 And also, it feels bad when I get negative comments. And slowly but surely, you start adapting and shaping your narrative and even your own thinking to an algorithm designed by other people.
Now,

Speaker 2 you think, well, it's okay to want to please the crowd. Shaming is a very powerful concept.

Speaker 2 And that is, for the majority of our time on this planet as a species, if we were expunged or expelled from the tribe, you would die.

Speaker 2 We're, you know, nomads and we need each other. There's a tribe of 100 people.

Speaker 2 20 people do the hunting, 20 do the gathering, 20 take care of the kids, 30 build housing, and 10 are the village elders that help make better decisions.

Speaker 2 And everybody or almost everybody gets to live a lot longer than they would if they were on their own.

Speaker 2 So being expunged, expunge is the wrong word, being expelled or cast out into the wilderness meant almost certain death. So that type of shame is really powerful and it hurts.

Speaker 2 The problem is that the people deciding these algorithms and shaping the likes and shaping your views and your narrative do not have your best interests at heart.

Speaker 2 They're not trying to promote a discourse. They're not trying to help you get more educated.
They're not trying to help improve your self-esteem. They're trying to make more money.

Speaker 2 And unfortunately, what the algorithms have discovered is that enragement and conflict create engagement, more Nissan ads, and more money.

Speaker 2 So what happens is you put out something that's cute with puppies. The algorithms love that.
It makes people feel good. It keeps them glued to their phones.
A lot of likes.

Speaker 2 You put out something controversial, maybe even something aggressive, and it makes the other side look bad or makes somebody look bad. The algorithms really like that.

Speaker 2 And they will elevate your content so more people get it, more people see it, and there's more more likes, which creates a feedback loop where you think, well, the more aggressive, the more pointed, the more terse, the more puncturing I get,

Speaker 2 the more

Speaker 2 dopa I feel, the more reward I get. And slowly but surely, the narrative that you start to develop is one of being more terse, more angry, more polarized, more puncturing, less grace.

Speaker 2 And then the narrative, if you will, becomes a function of the algorithm, and the algorithm owns you.

Speaker 2 And you no longer dictate you no longer own the technology the technology owns you and I'm a victim of this I there are certain issues I feel really strongly about and I hesitate to say things because I know I'm going to get a lot of negative comments and sometimes these comments are from bots that have been weaponized by people who don't share my beliefs okay fine or I'm inclined to jump on a bandwagon and start saying what I know my followers will like as a progressive.

Speaker 2 And the problem is when we all start barking up the same tree, we all get stupid.

Speaker 2 So where I've landed is the following. I go to my role models.
I'm a huge, I have a small list of people that I really admire and I try to model them.

Speaker 2 A couple examples.

Speaker 2 Margaret Thatcher and Muhammad Ali. And the thing I take from them is that the reason

Speaker 2 why they're my role models, the reason why I think they'll be remembered in 100 years was they were not afraid to put forward a viewpoint and behave and acquit themselves at the moment in ways and with words and with viewpoints that were wildly unpopular.

Speaker 2 Wildly unpopular. But they did their homework and they believed them and

Speaker 2 they were their truth selves. So the question I would ask is in the recommendation I would make in the script I'm trying to follow is I don't want the algorithms to own me.

Speaker 2 If you just have positive feedback in your comments, if you're just getting, if you're just stating, if you're just putting shit out there that everyone agrees with, and okay, you're not taking any chances, you're not being a leader.

Speaker 2 I always say to myself, if I don't have people pushing back on me, it means I'm not saying anything.

Speaker 2 If everybody agrees with me, it means I'm doing something that's funny about dogs or I'm stating the obvious.

Speaker 2 And that doesn't mean the comments don't affect me, but I realize that if I say something and it gets a lot of negative feedback, okay, learn from it, reflect on it, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong.

Speaker 2 I hope that when I look back on the content that I have put out there, that people say, sure, a lot of it was wrong, but

Speaker 2 his heart was in the right place and he was intellectually honest and he was unafraid. And that's the question I would put to you.
Does the algorithm own you or are you unafraid?

Speaker 2 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez.

Speaker 1 Our assistant producer is Laura Janaire. Drew Burris is our technical director.
Thank you for listening to the Propchea Pop and Propchen Media.

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