Simon Cowell on Regrets, Fame and Fatherhood

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This episode is presented by E.E. Marina.
Are you hosting or guesting for Christmas this year?

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Hello, and welcome to this special episode of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina High. And me, Richard Osman.
Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard.
So it's a Q ⁇ A episode. It is.

But we're not answering the questions. We have a special guest in the studio.
Our guest today is Mr. Simon Cowell, who...

is probably the most significant television producer of this century, I would say. Certainly would have a claim to it.
Yeah, I think it would be be impossible to think of someone

who was more significant. I think people think of you a music industry figure, but you are literally the behemoth of television in the last 25 years, Simon.
Well, I kind of jumped on it.

I didn't sort of start all these ideas. I heard about it and I just thought,

I described it like a train. Jump on the train because it's going to happen.
So we've got to be a part of it in some way. And that was really it.
Yeah, but you weren't just a part of it.

You then took it over.

But that's good, which which is which is impressive we will get on to all of that i'm sure shall i do a little positive history of silence background okay um you you but is this actually true you you were a runner on the shining i know i tried to be right but stanley kubrick the director don't ask me why wouldn't hire runners it must be it must have been a superstition so i couldn't even get a job for like 11 pounds a week as a runner on the shining happily you then landed in the emi mail room emi a record label which i we have to explain for people who are younger well it was actually emi music publishing but you're right it was all sort of yeah the music business yes you then had your own label which went bust in one of many life lessons for yourself i know you like to teach yourself life lessons yep you went to bmg did a r there were a lot of novelty records at that time which is kind of against the grain of a decade but you signed Robson and Jerome, who were two guys who were in a TV show called Soldier Soldier.

Yeah. And they had an enormous hit.
Yeah,

Unchained Melody.

But then the chapter of your life that most people will know you as because you became front of house, you became a judge on a new show called Pop Idol, which

attempted to find

a kind of recording artist. That was the moment you went stratospheric.
You became a completely sort of different type of figure.

You were mean, you were imperious, you were, you know, you were the puppet master in many ways.

And that's when you thought, perhaps I I can own this, rather than being that on someone else's thing, you thought you could make it for yourself.

You created the X-Factor, Britain Scott Talent, you had the biggest shows on both sides of the Atlantic. Well,

it's always been a summer show mainly.

So it's, you know, over the years, I mean, I think, yeah, we did our 20th anniversary last year and it has remained the number one summer show.

So, yeah, yeah.

So, but your new Netflix show, Simon Cowell, The Next Act, is about you

and it's about you putting a boy band together. Is that the way to categorise? That's it.
Good title, by the way. Oh, yeah.
Simon Cowliness, I think, is really, really smart.

We are going to get onto it because we both just watched all of it. Did you? Yes, we did indeed.
We've watched it all.

Let's start, shall we, with just some crowd-pleasing stuff. Okay, we'll start with X-Factor.
As Marina said, you started on Pop Idol, which was a... you and Simon Fuller put together.

You then morphed that into X-Factor, which you cleverly owned a lot more of.

But the question is not about the finances of the things. The question is from Fraser.
Which season of the X Factor was your favourite? Not as a producer, but personally? Oh,

it's a nice gentle start. Yeah, it's a nice start.
I think Leona Lewis's year,

because that was the first time, honestly, when she sang Summertime. I'll never forget that, where I genuinely thought, oh my God, we found, you know, from the UK, a global star.

I really did feel that in the moment and she's the nicest person in the world i mean really an absolutely great person so i think that has to be my favorite yeah yeah i mean other i've obviously liked other seasons is that the best single is that the best single i think it was uh bleeding love yeah one of my favorites actually yeah actually it was it was written a moment in time was the uh was was the winner single yeah but yeah but then bleeding love came after

and actually bleeding love believe it or not was written for a guy. And I got the demo.
And one of my ANR

people said, you know, we've found this great song and we're going to give it to a male singer. I said, no, it's a female song.

Listen to the lyrics.

It's amazing. And you've got to have a fantastic voice to sing this.
So we persuaded Ryan Tedder, the writer, to allow Leona. And I'll never forget when I got her version, it was like goosebumps.

I mean, serious goosebumps.

And yeah, anytime, it's one of it. It is actually a timeless, you know, hit, I think.

So Fraser's question, which is interesting, I'll ask you personally rather than as a producer. You know, when you're talking about Leona there, it strikes me you're in a position.

So you come from music and suddenly you're in TV and it's going, music had gone very, very well for you. You've proved yourself time and time again, you had hits.
Yeah.

TV is suddenly going well for you because you're proving yourself, you're having hits, but you're also on screen.

So, Leona Lewis, when you're in that position, how much of you is thinking as a TV producer, I've got a hit on my hands.

How much of you is thinking as a music producer, I've been in this place before and something extraordinary is happening.

And how much of you is thinking, I'm in a new world here, which is I'm on camera, people know who I am.

am and this show is doing something for me personally as well so how was that having those sort of three balls in the air at once once i i i you know i'd done well um i said no to going on these shows initially uh and then the deal was in the uk and america i would do the first season of both to kind of hopefully sort of get it where i wanted it to and then i would take a step back and then because the shows were doing well the money was good i'm going to be honest with you uh and i just said okay fine and actually i didn't have a problem being well known because everyone i met honestly, were just really nice people.

And because I'm quite, I was, still am, I'm quite shy.

Like my biggest nightmare is going to, you know, the pre-party before the sit-down party, where you've got to stand up and make conversation with people you don't know.

So when I wasn't well known, being in that position, I couldn't actually handle it. Even now, to this day, when I go to like a function, I say to Lauren, let's sit in the car.

And when I know everyone sat down, I'll go in because then I'm fine. I just always have had problems.
So in a long, so I'm waffling here.

But my point was, I didn't, I actually found being well known good in some ways. Because it became a form of being able to control situations.
Well, is that you couldn't perhaps control before?

Yeah, it was a good icebreaker. So, you know, people would say, you know, oh, I like your show.
I like that artist. So we immediately had something in common.

And, you know, because I'd constantly said to artists, you know, before,

if you have a problem, you know, meeting people after you're famous, then don't do this because it's going to happen.

And I remember being about seven when I asked someone for their autograph and he told me to piss off. Oh, who was that? It was

Bernard Cribbins.

Are you

swear? And, you know, because he's a national treasure, not anymore. And he told me to piss off.
It was at the ideal home exhibition or something. So, you know, I went over, like really starstruck.

Oh, can I have a autograph? And he literally said, piss off.

I don't know if he's still, is he still alive? He's not, I'm afraid. Okay, well, good.
I'll say it. He told me to piss off.
And I was really upset.

Anyway, so I thought, okay, the deal is, obviously, if I'm going to do this and become well-known, I can't then moan. if someone wants to come up and say hi or have a picture or whatever.

I mean, I've never had a problem actually with that ever.

And you've worked with a lot of famous people behind the scenes. Had that taught you anything about fame that you found useful?

I mean, everybody who had come to me, whether it was via my labels before I made the shows or came on the show, they all had one thing in common.

Well, actually, two things, actually. Mostly, it was having a successful music career.
or in some cases I just want to be famous.

So we had both.

And you'd always sit with them beforehand and go, you know, there is something that comes with it, lack of privacy, and you've got to deal with it.

And if you don't like that, then I suggest become an accountant or a gardener or something where no one knows who you are and you won't have that problem. We were talking about executive producing.

You're an executive producer on the new documentary.

And

something that's interesting about the newer documentary in comparison maybe to things you've done before is that I think that you've identified the fact that authenticity and a certain amount of rawness is in the ascendancy now.

And in all the ascendant media,

those are the popular things that people want to see. I wonder if...
that is achievable when you're the executive producer of your own documentary. Oh, that's a good question.

I went to a company who make Drive to Survive because I like that series. Boxer Box.
Boxer Box, yeah. And I thought it would be interesting because they've mainly done non-music things.

And then I met the executive producer, a lady called Cassie, who I really liked.

And we kind of had an agreement with essentially whatever happens, we are going to have to show. Because if we're going to show the real story from start to finish, there's going to be bumps.

And unfortunately, there were more than bumps. There were some really terrible things.
So the real story, story, so this show is called, it's called The Next Act.

It's essentially you putting together a boy band in the same way that you might have done on X Factor, but we're at home with you.

We see a little bit more of the process, a little bit more of the business side of things. So it is like an X Factor, but through the kind of prism of a...
documentary. Yeah, essentially.

I just wanted to tell and show the story of what I actually used to do even before I was on TV when I used to put bands together.

You know, it sounds corny doing saying that, but actually, you've got to be a catalyst to find talented people and decide actually

that person with that person, it doesn't become times two, it becomes times a hundred if you get it right.

So, you've got to find those people, persuade them, because most people want to be a solo artist, yeah, and you kind of got to convince them.

It will be a great way to start your career by being in a band.

And fun, by the way.

So, we just decided,

okay, fine, then whatever happens,

there'll be cameras everywhere. So would you show it?

So in the first episode,

you're talking about how to sort of reach your market and what's the best tool to reach your market. And you say, oh, I think it's radio and then there's a billboard.

Now, I think like almost every listener to this podcast knows now that those things don't move the dial anymore. Did you really think that radio and billboard was the best way to reach your market?

Because of course, we get the turn halfway through the episode where you think, oh my goodness, we're going to have to do something completely different to what I've done before, something modern.

Did you really think that radio was the best way to meet them? Well, I thought it was a good start.

You know, when we talked about it, you know, it was a pretty big poster I was going to put up, you know.

And you authentically believed that they would be reachable via poster. Well, I thought it was a good start.
And, you know, we...

Yeah, well, not just if you do

that, we'd get a lot of people applying. I mean, I actually did think that.
But then also in the back of my mind, it was, I know how many people drop out.

You know, when you when you cast for anything, there's a big dropout.

So

at the moment in the documentary and, you know, when I actually said, well, after putting up this huge post of doing a lot of radio, how many people have actually applied?

And actually, the biggest issue really was the website which was created. The website was like trying to log into Apple TV times a million.
It was so complicated.

And I thought, why are we making it so difficult? So let's

do social media.

Heard of it. Yeah, a lot.

And actually about 60 more radio interviews. So it was a bit of both, really, just so we could get the numbers above a thousand.
That's what was my goal. I need over a thousand people to apply.

Because if we don't, I don't think we're going to have a chance.

Yeah, I think what Marina is getting at here and I do think I've watched all of it and you are brilliant at what you do and the and the band, it feels to me, I mean, they're great.

I mean genuinely they

seem great. But what I thought I was going to watch was something a bit that had more authenticity, if that makes sense.

And I think you're you're so brilliant at controlling narrative and understanding what people want and understanding how to give it to them that I wondered if you execing that show meant that we missed out on some of some genuine authenticity because i i felt a number of times there were moments where you were saying oh this is a big problem i don't know what's going to happen here and i thought i think you do know what's going to happen here and no

it's it's it's it's very very watchable

pinky thummy i didn't okay absolutely didn't uh i was uh i was living and i was in a bit of a bubble i had a gut feeling that we've got to check the number So I wasn't going to go into this without.

Not even just this bit, but throughout, there are a number of moments where I'm thinking,

this is much more X Factor than I thought it was going to be. And by the way, that's absolutely fine because

I promise you it was all genuine. What you see is what happened.
And there weren't any second takes. So we'll talk

about the audition process as an example. Yeah.

Very good acoustic in those glass offices. I was amazed.
I thought it was wonderful.

So when you're doing those auditions, what you say, which of course you never said on X Factor and those previous shows where you were much more the kind of impresario and the controller of all of them, what you say is there's a filter room and then people, the good ones, are sent through to me.

And when that was done, I thought, oh, great, because that's the problem. That's good.

That's the case. And so behind the audience, that's some authenticity.
Yeah. But then

why did we see some

rather unfortunate, less talented people much in the way that we always used to, in that sort of slight X factor theater of cruelty way where we just get to laugh at them because they're useless and you get to be quite rude to them?

What happened was we didn't know how many people were going to turn up. So normally on say got talent, I know there's X amount of people per day.
On this, we didn't know. So on the first morning,

it was so nerve-wracking that until it was about 12.30 when I could leave my hotel and go to the venue because at that point it was raining and no no one had turned up.

So I thought this is going to be really really humiliating.

And then

because I have a cut off at eight o'clock, I'm just my brain's frying beyond eight. So I said look, we're going to cut off at eight, which means we're going to try and see everyone.

So we set up three or four, as you said, filter rooms. There were a couple of filter rooms who were sending people through who they thought were good and I thought were terrible.

But by the edit, I appreciate by eight o'clock that evening, you know, that

you're not sure you've got to shoot enough coverage so that you've got some stuff. Yeah.
But by the time of the edit, perhaps you didn't need to show the unfortunately untalented ones at all.

But perhaps it wouldn't be

an authentically used show if you didn't. Well, that is the

reality with auditions: that I've always gone with

about half a percent, if you're lucky, of the people you see are going to be good.

And

so there were some some not so good people.

And so, yeah, I mean, I suppose it was a decision to show the kind of people who turned up. And some of them weren't very good.

Right, I see. And you have a glint in your eye.
I go.

Because it reminded me, and I think I expect you, and one thing that we have had lots of questions about from lots of different listeners actually is duty of care. Yes.

And the vibe shift between X Factor, where initially you would have the auditions and then i think it became so successful that kind of the the theatre of the audition process that eventually you moved it to a you know it was live and you had an audience watching auditions yeah but i think that we all detect a vibe shift since then that you would have a i wonder how your view of duty of care has evolved over

a lot i mean we've always tried as much as we can to look after our artists i mean you send them out into what i call the real world with as much advice as you possibly can with, you hope, great managers around them.

You know, I always partnered with a big label, BMG, Sony, so I had a massive infrastructure. I was a tiny little cog in their company.
So I made money in the same way as the artist did.

I got paid a royalty.

The artist got paid a royalty.

And yes, when you

sometimes the manager would bring an artist to me in the main we would take artists to management hope hoping that they would be looked after not ripped off and prepared and then over the over time

whether it's discussions about mental health and and duty of care that has become much more

something we think about talk about and acknowledge

I mean, that is, you have to. Certainly, episode three in this,

the end of episode three is a sort of black title card that says, in loving memory of Liam Payne, who was, of course, in your band, One Direction. And during that episode,

when the news of his death breaks and it becomes part of that episode,

you obviously realize that you have to involve the parents of these, in some cases, still children who are potential members of the band and you get them all together.

I'm mentioning your son, Eric who's 11 because you put him in the documentary and you know you talk about him as a sort of motivating factor for kind of embarking on this quest at all.

But one of the children's mothers says, if your son,

you know, what would you say to Eric if he wanted to be in a band like this?

And I guess I would just perhaps firm that up slightly and say, if Eric was 15 and came and said, someone else, not you, wants to put me in a band like this, Would you and Lauren let him?

If I thought he was talented enough, number one.

Do you think that people of that age can consent meaningfully to the risks and the rewards of that lifestyle? Yeah, I do.

I think, you know, if you, I mean, I know how many songs roughly are uploaded a day now. It's hundreds of thousands.

There are hundreds of thousands of people right now wanting to get a break in the music business. And right now, weirdly, it's the hardest time to get a label to back you.

In some ways, you don't need a label. Well, I personally think you do.

I think you do

because,

yeah, you hear stories about people doing it themselves.

I suppose I could have been the label, but I don't have a record label anymore. So I...

You have a publishing deal with Universal, that's right, isn't it? Yes, but

which is where the deal with the band has ended up.

But the record deal had to be with a major company. Yes.
Because I knew, I know how much you have to invest, what it takes logistically. It's like you've got to put together a little army,

and particularly a band.

If you're going to put them in a house,

just the costs involved are ginormous. And you think, though, in four years, your son would be able to consent to that?

I mean, I have an 11-year-old among my children and I have a 15-year-old among my children.

And while some things change in that time, I think it's amazing how like unformed and vulnerable they still are at 15.

Yeah. Well, look, there's two.

I completely hear what you're saying. On the other side, it's sometimes at that age, there is a window,

which is you've got to just take. the opportunity.
And these boys, they were young, most of them. And it was like, if they don't get this chance now, what are the chances for them outside of this?

Has Has that always been your view of the music industry?

That it's one of the great ways of lifting young and talented people out of a life of sometimes of terrible disadvantage and some have very sad endings within those stories, but others don't.

And these are

that show business. The music business I've always found very elite.

So when I was running a label, I would be on the receiving end of what people thought of the records I was putting out. And I was embarrassed, humiliated.
I mean, everything it was just about.

I remember you once giving a quote in an interview saying, Everything that is shit in this company, Simon Carl does. This is when you were working with Money Poppets, the Power Rangers.

I remember you. Really supportive, yeah.

But you know what?

It wasn't great that whole time, but you've got to lift yourself up and go, I don't really care what you think. This is what I believe is going to sell.
It's the music business.

So my job is to make money for you and me. And that was the deal.
And if I saw an opportunity like Robson and Jerome, you jump on it.

And other people were laughing at me. And I mean, I was, God, so many, because we outsold Oasis that year.

And I remember the press was just saying the most vile things about me and Robson and Jerome because we dared beat Oasis to number one. I think it was the biggest selling single of that decade.

It was that big. That was certainly for two years

they were the biggest selling artists in the UK. There's a lovely question actually from Brian Atkinson, which we've already answered, but he said, Does it give you a sense of quiet satisfaction?

Actually, that is a good way of putting it.

Does it give you a sense of quiet satisfaction that when people talk about Britpop and the battle of Britpop, they conveniently forget that Robson and Drome actually had the biggest selling single of 1995?

I think it's funny. I mean, you can't take it seriously.
I mean, you know, I saw an opportunity.

Took me a few months to persuade them, but eventually I did persuade them to get into a studio because I thought if I get them into a studio, they're going to hear it back and they're going to hopefully like it.

I offered them 100 grand, actually. And I said, look, it's yours.
You can keep it, but you've got to go into the studio for one day. And they did.

And once I got them in, they called me and I won't use the words they said. You bleep, bleep, bleep.

You did this on purpose. I said, well, of course I did it on purpose, you know, because I wanted you to believe that you could do this.

What is it that's in your brain and not in other people's brains that we're able to see two guys from Soldier, Soldier and you immediately saw pound signs where other people didn't see them?

Well, I had a really good friend who was in the telesales department

because that's when we were manufacturing records. So

the record shops would phone all the telesales teams at all the major labels if there was a demand for something. So this lady lady called Denise said,

Do you know Robertson and Jerome? And I said, Nope. Well,

everyone's trying to buy their version of Unchained Melody. And I went, okay, leave it with me.
And so I tracked them down and took me a few months. But to your point, I'm not a snob.

And a lot of the people I worked with were, I think, snobs.

And I just don't understand that mentality. If certain people like something and other people don't, what does it matter?

don't i didn't think it mattered i mean if people buy zig and zag and enjoy all the power rangers i mean who cares it didn't bother me apart from the fact

yeah there were some uncomfortable meetings you know i had to you know when i had to sit there okay what's new and i would go okay here we go i've signed the power rangers and there'd be it's like deathly silence around the room and people sniggering and uh

if if we if we go back in a time machine to that point and talk to some of the colleagues on the other side of that table,

how would they describe you, do you think, at that point in your career? We weren't friends.

We weren't close. No.
So, I mean, some were. I got to a point where I actually went to the boss of the whole company and said, it's so bad, this environment.

I've got to work with another label. I just can't work here anymore.
And if you don't, I'm actually going to walk. I will break the contract and walk.
I can't bear this any longer. It was so, so bad.

And fortunately, he switched me from one label to another label. And they were really like up for it.

They were like, we don't care. Just sell as many records as you can.
I'm like, brilliant.

I did. And how much is the world of Idol and X Factor?

a sort of reaction to that time in your career where you are able to say, I want a vehicle where I can prove that I was right, that actually there is something to be said for popular music, for music that doesn't come out of

some basement, something that isn't cool, but just a vindication for the way you'd always want to do business. Well, you're right to say popular because pop music is popular.
I mean, that's it.

So I thought,

again, statistically, if we could get, say, 10,000 people to apply, there has to be a really good chance, if we filter this properly, that we're going to find one or two good people per year.

I just thought the fact that we were being paid to make a show was brilliant.

I was just genuinely job smacked. I'm like, this is fantastic.

Was it more about television than music? No, it's the opposite. I'm like, no, we're going to sell, we're going to try and, you know, find artists and sell loads of records.
And this is the vehicle.

Quite a few of them would end up getting dropped relatively soon afterwards, though. Well, yeah, but I mean, you don't you never sign someone in the hope they're going to fail.

I mean that would be I mean

literally insane. There would be times where you would go for whatever reason I can't connect with this artist or they can't connect you know with the audience for whatever reason.

I always used to say look I don't have a magic wand. I can try but I can't guarantee anything and actually a lot of it has to come from you.
So you know when people say oh yeah you know

I wasn't backing them. I did back them.
I did everything I possibly could, but not everything worked out the way we want it to. But a lot did, fortunately.

What's your feeling about those ones who are sort of almost unionising? I think Katie Wasehall ended up training as a lawyer and she's got some sort of...

She's trying to bring some action against you for exploitation or whatever it is. What's your feeling about that?

Well, look, I really, I don't want to go too far down that route other than everyone's entitled to their opinion any artist is the vast majority of people who came on the show they made a lot of money uh and got what they wanted which was fame um did it go exactly the way they wanted possibly not so certain people yeah they've just got it in for me and there's nothing i can do about that i mean we

every time we got we put someone on the show they they they signed up to what they knew the show was about and most people

i suppose it's about not quite understanding what you're consenting to to some degree certainly back in the day if i can ask a question from alan mcintyre which is which i think is asking something slightly different but it's i think it's instructive given your varied career it's fairly easy to point to success but what has been your biggest miss and what did you learn from it and i think the spirit of that question would be

clearly you've been in the music business long enough to know that there are sharks around and also your eyes are fairly wide open to what happens in the business.

So, you do know that you're sending people out into a slightly rocky field sometimes. Yeah.

Do you ever think 20 years ago, I wish I'd known that, and I would have done things slightly differently? What, what, what, what are the regrets when you think about those things? God, you know what?

I do believe in destiny. I use always use Eric as an example, which is there were certain things in my life which were bad.
However,

that's your destiny. And Eric was conceived on a certain day at a certain time.
And if things have gone differently, then I don't believe he would be here.

So that, therefore, you can't really complain too much about, you know, your regrets. You just can't.

However, still,

you know, I've had experiences now where people who you've trusted. just completely let you down and and you're just like what what would be an example

i can't go into it but i'll tell you i'll tell you when when all this is off um but no genuinely i mean i can be quite naive um where i really really really put my trust in people and boy do they let let you down um

and so you know to you know your earlier point about me giving advice it's like I wish actually someone had given me advice about certain things and said, Simon, you know, open up here

because you know for whatever this all sounds a bit cryptic

let's just say

I've experienced you know certain things myself which yeah I regret but can you do anything about it now

I suppose you can't in terms of your career or in terms of just where I am in my life you know because you know my family is everything to me genuinely and having or being a dad

was I mean when I first found out I'm like oh my God,

I wasn't expecting that. And then from the minute I saw his scan, I just fell in love.
I mean, it was like a game changer. Everything in my life changed.
So

I relived my childhood with Eric.

And,

you know, the first Christmas they get, the first Halloween they get, whatever, Easter, everything, birthdays, everything becomes different.

Things that you were trying to put right about your your own childhood or? Well, I had a pretty good childhood. I wasn't great at school.

I just wasn't.

You were in L Street, weren't you? Peeping over the fence for some exciting parties. Yeah, I was, yeah, when I was a kid, yeah.

Tell the story of when you...

Yeah,

my dad, you know, he, he,

he didn't actually make

in the end much money, to be honest with you. He didn't.

I wasn't left anything. However, there was a time in his career where he was doing well and our next door neighbors

they ran MGM studios so they used to have this big big party like once a year I think it was and we would literally peek over the fence and see people like Elizabeth Taylor Richard Burton and I was mesmerized by it and and but the funny thing was is that I didn't want to be the actor or the actress.

I wanted to be the person who had the party. And his name was Jerry Blattner.

Um, and he was a really cool guy, and he had a really fun wife who I remember her really well. Her name was uh Pam,

and um, I think that was the trigger point, possibly in my life, thinking, God, that would be cool, you know, to be in that sort of world, to be the impresario, yeah, to be,

yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, yeah. It just looked great, it was like really

glamorous, old-school party. You know, I can remember it vividly, and it must have been really young.

This episode is brought to you by Channel 4. Now, Richard, settling down on a winter's evening, turn the TV on.
What sort of thing are you searching for?

Well, when you think about Channel 4, you think about Quirky, you think about slightly off the wall.

My absolute go-to's, well, three things, my absolute go-to's.

Grand Designs, because Kevin McLeod is the greatest television presenter in the history of factual entertainment uh 24 hours in police custody again because it changed the way those things were done you know it changed we'd seen all sorts of police investigation things but 24 hours in police custody absolutely had a had a new unusual refreshing way of covering those cases and every single time there is a new one they have to release them they can't sort of release them week by week because they're literally waiting for court cases to come through some of them are waiting for years for years and years and years but any time a new one pops up uh in on on on the streaming service i'm like here we go.

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If we go back, sorry, just when you were talking about Eric and how it's changed your attitudes, which I think it does for most people.

If you look back to the times where you very, very, very first started with One Direction and you look at the time now when you're just starting with December 10, who are the new band,

you must look at, because some of them are 16, 17, you must have a very different attitude to those boys than you did to One Direction.

Is that interesting for you? There's a similarity in so much as it wasn't, I don't think, in their plans to be in a band, the people in One Direction and the people in this new band.

It was because, obviously, with One Direction, we just made that decision. It would be best for them in the moment.

I could just do it. See what happens.
With this,

I did this because

I'm a great believer. I always say this to...

people in their teens. If you want to start your career in music, I would really recommend you start in a band.
Always team up.

You team up, yeah, and you've got friends around you, and it's more fun and you learn who you are. Doing it on your own is really

if you don't write your own material, it's almost impossible right now, I would say, to get a label to back you or to do it yourself. I mean, it's like a lottery out there.

But when you're looking at John or Nicholas, a bit of you is looking at Eric, right?

But

that's a very different experience for you. It is, And you're right to say that because Eric wasn't born when One Direction became a band.

He was there during the auditions with me, Eric, and he just loved it.

And he almost got a bit starstruck with the boys to the point where they're doing a showcase next week and he's...

going down with his mates to see them and he's just so excited about it and that feeling is i can't explain it it's just the best the fact that my son really is into something I've done

because when he first played me one a one direction record I was on holiday and he played me what's what makes you beautiful because he's always playing songs and he said do you like this I said yeah I know the band no you don't I said well I do I work with them no you didn't and I was laughing and then it got to the point where I'm like gosh I love listening to their songs because they're brilliant but at the same time I'm thinking, I really miss that buzz myself of working with a new band.

Because it's not totally clear from the documentary, but I understand it to be the case that you're not just involved in the assembly, you're involved thereafter.

Yeah. That's right.
You're not just, you know, you haven't just put them together.

Of course you've got a piece of it. Simon Cowell.
Yeah. I mean, you always, you know, if you can, you want to be, and you stay involved.

And how do Universal, for instance, feel about that because that that's a that can be a friction can't it between the label and the the manager are you officially their manager is that what they call you no no

what's your what's your job title

i don't know actually line manager line manager i i think they are my boss bosses now i mean it's kind of like role reversal you know right oh okay it is a bit like that because it's like you know you're talking to x x amount of boys and they've now bonded and they're just unionized and they're taking the piss out of me and they're pranking me and everything else.

But I kind of love that. You know, I like that relationship.
Yeah, but you are still the most powerful person in that process. You're more powerful than Universal in that process.

You're certainly more powerful than the boys. You're Simon Cowlin.
I know it's hard for you to come to terms with because you wake up as you every morning.

But in terms of that process, in terms of that whole documentary, you are the big dog. Well, yes, to a point.

I think what, I mean, my job really is, well, first of all, you could try and find them a manager who you trust, but they had to make the decision themselves. We let them meet a number of people.

They chose someone, and I think they made a really good choice.

We like that you think their name is a good choice. We find it very funny because

it's got the feel.

We're allowed to say what it is now because by the time it says December 10, it sounds like a sort of South American kind of Marxist-terrorist organization.

I know the Black September was taken.

The Black September was taken.

It sounds like the glorious

sound.

I don't know.

It does.

I think you say that again. It reminding you of what? Well, you know, it's got the sound of a sort of revolutionary organisation.
Yeah, no,

yes,

it's the anniversary of when the show launches. Sure, sure.
But it sounds like a Colombian terrorist group. Yeah, well, now you mention it.
Now I get it. I wish she hadn't put that thought in my head.

It's a good name to leave. It's too late now.
I thought it was very sweet of them and very respectful to Netflix that they did that, you know, because it's like,

yeah. Respectful to Netflix.
Well, it was. That's the key in this show.
Well, it was because...

No, it shows that they acknowledge that

the platform has given

an opportunity. How was your relationship with Netflix and how was their relationship with you just out of interest?

I've really, really like them. I've got a lot of friends there who work there

and everyone who works there, I mean, they're happy. I think the bosses are amazing.
I think they're incredibly smart.

I mean, you think about where they started and where they've got to. I mean, it's an unbelievable, seriously, an unbelievable story.

And I wanted to do something on Netflix. You know, I really did.
So I was, you know, really praying that they were going to say, yeah, I've really got to delete what you just said.

December 10. It's true, though.
God.

All those optimizations are. It is funny.
I mean, honestly. Until, you know, they activate.
Until the cell activates.

You could see it, right? There's seven of them. No, yeah.
No. Spool forward two years.

Alex Beagley says, did you see the Boy Zone documentary? Yes. Very good.
What did you make of that?

How do you think Louis came across in that? That's my favorite. Just as Louis.
I mean, Louis is so unfiltered.

I mean genuinely

and the fact genuinely yeah I mean

he's unfiltered but

in a stage in a different way yeah I mean I don't think I would have quite he put a lot out there he put everything out there

I thought it I mean I thought it was interesting yeah sad at the same time.

I remember that that time where we were on the Smash Hits Road show.

You know, we all wanted to get on that to break out but our artists, If you can get on that show and on the TV show, then you had a really good shot. And he did that with Boyzone.
Yeah.

And that, and look, the fact that he put

however many there were on a TV show and just said dance. And they hadn't prepared for it.
I mean, only Louie could do that. I mean, that is classic.

Are you guys still in contact? You're a Louis?

I hear from him, yeah. I mean, I saw him actually.

I'm just joking.

No, no, with Louie, everything he says, like I said, I mean, we said this earlier on.

Friendship is you can say things and then laugh about it afterwards. So

when he goes on certain shows and mouths off about me, I'm like, Louis, why did you do that? Well, they paid me a lot of money. They paid me a lot.
I said, I know, but you didn't have to say that.

And I just burst out laughing. Can I ask you a little bit? Because one of the things you say at one point is, oh, I keep waking up in the night.
I read and then I maybe do or don't go back to sleep.

Can I ask you about your cultural life? What do you read?

Oh,

mainly,

I actually like your books. Oh, that's worse.
He's good, isn't he? He's thinking this is a hand stock report. He's thinking this is a trap.
No, no, it's not a trap.

No, respect. You must have made a fortune.
Thank you, son. No, genuinely, you must have done that.

I know from you that is the greatest respect. No, you've done really well.

When did you come up with that? That's kind.

Then I'll answer the question.

I think it was December 10.

And that was...

No, we are not. Don't say it.
You could activate them. I love John Grisham.
I think out of every author, he's my favourite. I go around in circles.
I'll actually read a book I love four or five times.

What about TV? What about things that you like on TV? Well,

do you know what? You know, when people work in a fish and chip shop and they go, I just can't eat fish and chips. I'm sometimes a bit like that with TV.
Yeah.

Which is I watch so much of what I make because I have to. You have to watch the shows before they go out, you know, as a producer.
And it can become...

I mean, it takes hours and hours and hours and hours. So sometimes when people say, do you want to watch the TV show? I'm like, oh, God, no.
I think I'm more into films.

Do you go to the cinema still? Yeah, I do. I saw Paddington, you know, the one in Peru.
Yes. Big mistake, by the way.
Yeah. Because Paddington needs to stay in London.

I would love the idea of you coming out and talking to Eric about where exactly they went wrong.

No, I know what you mean.

We don't mind about the origins. It didn't work.
You know, Paddington in London is magic. Him in Peru didn't work.
Simon Cowell, the next act, brilliant name for a documentary.

It's out right now. I think it's a genuinely interesting watch.

I think it's less authentic than I was hoping it was going to be because I'm genuinely interested in your process and the way your mind works and how you put a band together.

And I felt I was watching a little bit of your mind putting a television show together more than I was watching your mind putting a band together. I still enjoyed it.
I promise you,

I told you, pinky thummy, and I never break that.

I'm just saying that.

Actually, maybe I'm a bit boring. No, Simon, no.
I just think, I think there were moments where... What do you think we didn't show out of interest?

What do I think gosh that's a really really good question i think that the process is slightly different i think for example this is a really really small example i think you had a good idea you wanted seven boys in that band earlier than you showed on the camera okay well then

absolutely not

i'm not buying that because you're all talking about k-pop all the way through and k-pop seven is a small number yeah are you

looking at all those pictures the night before i i had three and then i was going to form five and then i was thinking to myself who do I drop because I've got to seven and I genuinely like all of these boys so the night before I couldn't sleep so I was thinking about some of these k-pop bands and it was like they've done so well and I think people like big groups now so why am I dropping people for the sake of it see my as a viewer yeah I'm thinking you thought that a long time before

because

and and if you didn't then I then I'd be surprised because you're more bright i promise you i give you my word uh i made the decision on the day i did it and i told lauren about 30 seconds i said right this is what i'm doing she said you've lost your mind i said okay who would you drop and she went yeah you got a point And I didn't tell anyone around me, didn't tell the producers, didn't tell my team, I didn't tell anyone.

I promise you, it was like in the moment, a bit like, I think, in a good way, a light bulb moment. But as a viewer, genuinely, I'm spending 15 minutes going, I know it's going to be all seven.

I've really got to see you looking at all of these pictures again and again again.

Sorry to disappoint you. I don't know who to drop.
I mean, is it him? I mean, if you look at this picture, that's good, isn't it? Well, no, because I knew that you were going to have seven people.

Well, okay, well, then you should do I do.

Because

we got to a point where

I really started to like these boys and I could see them bonding and I just couldn't lose one or two of the boys. And then when I saw all seven of them, I went, actually,

they look amazing.

So when they have that first meeting and they weren't allowed to be any cameras in that meeting that we were told had gone really wrong, but luckily when you have the meeting at Universal,

all the cameras are in a row. I'm so pleased.
Where you have a publishing deal?

Okay, look, the publishing deal, by the way, is completely separate from the record deal.

But the cameras were not separate from that meeting, which I was thrilled about because we amazingly got to see the moment they got the record. I'll tell you off-camera what happened.
Other than...

There we go. It's totally authentic.
It'll dance off when it happens.

It is, I have to say, it's very watchable. I think that they're going to do incredibly well.
I'm not an expert, but I do know a good song.

So when I heard, you know, the soundtrack of the Demon Hunters. And I heard those songs.

My God, these songs are amazing. Golden, I mean, it's one of the best pop songs I've heard in years.
So, you know, credit to them. They did a brilliant job.
Anyway, cut to our band.

When I heard their first song, I just personally, like Bleeding Love, love it.

And I hope other people like it. And I hope other people like the band because they're not,

then they're just regular kids. You know, they're really nice people and I really want things to go well for them.
Will they continue to exist?

Will they now exist just as a band or will there be more sort of shoulder content? Will there be other breakout series about their backstage life?

I hope if it's successful that we could do that. I mean I've still got cameras you know with them now.
Of course. I went down to see them the other day and they did prank me actually twice

and then I pranked them back

because they told me in a meeting that one of them is going on Love Island.

What? That's a good prank. Yeah.
To be fair.

Anyway, so then I pretended to phone his girlfriend and tell her.

And so he went like, oh, you can use a phone. Because in the documentary, there's a funny scene where

you can't use a phone.

I literally held the phone up like that

and just was talking to myself, pretending I was talking. We've been so mean to you.

You're being really mean to me.

It's all good humid. It's all good.
My favourite bit in the whole thing is when you tell them to do bye-bye bye just to get a dig dig in at five for turning that song down.

That's such a good

thing. And they do a beautiful version of it.
Do you like it? Yeah.

Oh my god. That's why we were hoping that was going to be the first single.
Well, you know, it's a very good bye-bye bye. Siren, thank you so much for coming.

I mean, seriously. Well, listen, we have to do it.
We are very grateful to you coming in and answering all of those questions.

They didn't even talk about Britain's Got Talent, one of the probably the biggest show in the whole world.

That's how much Simon has done.

You talked about America's Got Talent, so we have to regard that base as ticked for this moment. It is covered.
But yeah, thank you so much for coming in. So,

Simon Cowell, the next act, it's on Netflix right now. On December 10.
Don't say it three times in the bathroom mirror.

Hostage video.

But it is, and again, people,

if you do watch it, we'd love to get your take about

the authenticity of this game. Actually, you know what? I promise you, I will come back on if you'll have me.

And then we'll see if it's worked and whether people believe me or you. Yes,

it really was authentic. Actually, to the point, you know, when we have magic acts on BGT? Yeah.
So we genuinely don't know what they're going to do and what's going to happen. And then it goes out.

And apparently people go, oh, it was rigged. The judges knew.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.

We don't i kind of believe in magic because i have to um so this is a little bit the same it's kind of annoying that you think

that i'd planned this all along and i didn't however the positive means

actually what is the positive i don't even know what it is i think there it's it's uh it's a bit annoying more on tbc i simply say to the people who watch it i think there are inauthentic production choices that's all i'll say I will say, as the producer, it isn't.

And on that bombshell. As the executive producer of a documentary about himself, I'm Dan.

All right, all right.

Simon, thanks so much for coming in. Oh, my gosh.
My gosh. You too.
Thank you so much, Simon. Thank you so much, listeners.
We will see you all next Tuesday. Thank you, everybody.

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