The Bitchiest Celeb Interview Of All Time

Speaker 1 This episode is presented by E.E. Marina, are you hosting or guesting for Christmas this year?

Speaker 2 Normally, every other year, I am a very grateful guest, but I am now a slightly trepidatious host. Yes, it is me in the apron having a meltdown over all the cooking.

Speaker 2 No, I don't think I'll have a meltdown.

Speaker 2 It's a lot, isn't it?

Speaker 2 But you have to just keep saying to yourself, it's just a big chicken.

Speaker 1 Just a big chicken.

Speaker 2 Just a really big chicken. It's just a really enormous chicken.

Speaker 1 We are also hosting this year. Looking forward to it very much.
If you are hosting, then EE has the best broadband technology. If you are guesting, then EE has the best mobile technology.

Speaker 1 And my goodness, you need it at Christmas, right?

Speaker 2 Yes. The third babysitter, the distractor.

Speaker 1 Just when the family walk into the house, it's hello, grandma, hello, granddad. What's the Wi-Fi password?

Speaker 1 I might need that. Get the best connectivity for your home and your phone with EE.

Speaker 2 And if you're guesting, lucky you, EE has the best mobile network to keep you connected to music, maps, and backseat streaming for the kids when you're traveling.

Speaker 1 Search EE Does More.

Speaker 3 Sparkle throughout the night with Born in Roma fragrances by Valentino Beauty. Each bottle holds the energy of Rome after dark.

Speaker 3 Donna Born in Roma blends luxurious jasmine with rich, creamy vanilla, creating a sensual and vibrant signature scent.

Speaker 3 Uoma Born in Roma fuses aromatic sage and smoked vetiver, leaving a lasting impression that lingers well into the early hours. Shop Born in Roma by Valentino Beauty, now at Ulta.

Speaker 4 Oh, what fun. Holiday invites are arriving, and Nordstrom has your party fits covered.

Speaker 4 You'll find head-to-toe looks for every occasion, including styles under 100, dresses, sets, heels, and accessories from Bardot, Princess Polly, Dolce Vita, Naked Wardrobe, Coach, and more.

Speaker 4 Free styling help, free shipping, and quick order pickup make it easy. In-stores are online, it's time to go shopping at Nordstrom.

Speaker 2 Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Wrestlers Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde.

Speaker 1 And me, Richard Osman. Hello, everybody.
Hello, Marina.

Speaker 2 Hello, Richard. How are you?

Speaker 1 I'm very, very well. You're excited about Christmas?

Speaker 2 I am hugely excited about Christmas. I'm very excited about Christmas.
There does seem, as always at this point in the year, quite a few things that need to happen before Christmas is coming.

Speaker 2 It's now in the turbo-busy phase, but I'm very excited about it.

Speaker 1 I guess so, but imagine being Santa. Yeah.
That's even worse. I always think of this time of year, however much there is to do, you've got to decorate the tree and so on.
At least you're not Santa.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I have research.
I mean, that's a huge amount of work that he's got to do.

Speaker 2 One of the great distributors of

Speaker 2 our era.

Speaker 1 I would have thought that he would be perfect for celebrity traders because...

Speaker 1 early next year he's he his time frees up a bit he doesn't have like a hot breakfast show or anything to do but secondly like

Speaker 2 they film it in May.

Speaker 1 No one, no, no, sure. That's what I'm saying.
I'm saying, so, so you, it's, it's like in this time.

Speaker 2 I think it's ramped up again by me.

Speaker 1 No, I think, I think he would be fine. But also, imagine two things.
Firstly, amazing traitor. I mean, um, I mean,

Speaker 1 mind-bogglingly amazing traitor, but also an incredible faithful. And imagine if you've got Father Christmas.

Speaker 2 Okay, the double threat. Book him.
If they have, if they've got a spot that they're saving for something really amazing, then book him.

Speaker 1 Don't you think so? Yes.

Speaker 1 What are we talking about this week?

Speaker 2 We are talking about maybe the biggest AI news in entertainment that has been slightly snuck out this week, but it is a huge game changer.

Speaker 1 Disney have signed a deal with Open AI. I think this is the beginning of everything that is about to happen with AI.
And there are upsides and downsides.

Speaker 1 We will talk about it, but it's the biggest AI story, I think,

Speaker 1 since we've been on air. And I don't just mean in the last five minutes.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 We are also going to talk about, you will have seen Quentin Tarantino's disparaging comments about a few actors. The Furore is ongoing.

Speaker 2 Seeming everyone has piled in and said it's the most outrageous thing that this opinion was voiced.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so why does no one ever slug off anyone in Hollywood?

Speaker 2 So I've got a tour through some of the great slaggings of recent years. Oh my God, I knew you were.

Speaker 1 I'm also going to talk about what is happening with podcasts. They're going to Netflix, Rest is Footballer doing a Netflix thing at the World Cup.
Are podcasts becoming television by the back door?

Speaker 1 And what does that mean? Let us begin then. AI, the genie, I think, is out of the bottle.
And that genie is the genie from Aladdin.

Speaker 2 But you're not allowed to use Robin Williams' voice.

Speaker 1 But it will look exactly like the genie from Aladdin. And if you want to do an impression of Robin Williams, you can.
So Disney has signed a deal. Let's rewind.
Yes, rewind.

Speaker 2 Disney has signed a deal with Open AI,

Speaker 2 Harbingers of Doom, or, you know, great innovators, delete as applicable um to license

Speaker 2 i think 200 of their characters for use in sora 2 which is a um second generation of their ai video generation platform it's like chat gpt you type in some prompts and it makes videos rather than text i mean it's a little bit like when you know when steamboat willie that version of mickey mouse went out of copyright This is now like apparently everything else is out of copyright.

Speaker 2 Well, not literally everything else, because there are certain things, as you say,

Speaker 2 you can't use talent voices or talent likenesses.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you can use all of the animated characters, essentially, all the big ones.

Speaker 1 And you can use Darth Vader because Darth Vader wears a mask. You can use Deadpool.
So anything that they own that essentially doesn't look like an actor currently living, you can use.

Speaker 1 to your own ends to make short films with,

Speaker 1 which is exactly what people are going to be doing. So they've got into bed with Open AI.
Weirdly, they haven't even, they haven't really paid Open AI. They've been allowed to invest in Open AI.

Speaker 1 So they've sort of paid $1 billion to sign this deal. It's a three-year licensing deal for these things.
It allows them to have stock in Open AI, allows them.

Speaker 2 Which is currently worth about, maybe it's worth 500,000. No one really knows because it's such a sort of tissue of deals, but maybe it's 500 billion, maybe it's more.

Speaker 1 But certainly, if you were heavily invested in animation, this is a pretty good hedge.

Speaker 1 to have, which is to invest in the technology, which is going to destroy the business you're currently in, which seems to be what they're doing.

Speaker 1 They're licensing those things for three years, at which point there are options on both sides to increase that.

Speaker 1 But it's the thing that people have talked about for a while, which is AI are going to scrape everything we do anyway. So why don't we, as Disney, make some money out of it?

Speaker 1 The people not making money out of it, by the way, are the Disney animators and the people who work at Disney, the people who will make money out of it are the people who run Disney and the people who own, you know, own large bits of Disney because this is a hedge against the future and investing in

Speaker 1 a stock they hope goes up and up and up and up. But what it does, it opens the floodgates for anyone really to do anything with any of those Disney characters.

Speaker 2 To me, it is so fascinating because

Speaker 2 of all the studios, this is the most gate-kept, most sort of litigated. You know, they've always commercially ring-fenced their things.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it's a hundred years of history. It's this whole prestige thing.

Speaker 2 And, you know, now you're going to be able to see Elsa fight Princess Leia and then kiss.

Speaker 2 And, you know, and by the way, I'm going to come on to some examples of things that already, but as you say, things are already out there. You know, there's loads of stuff,

Speaker 2 kind of fake Pixar, because remember, Disney owned their own legacy black brand. They own Star Wars, Pixar, Marvel.
So there's a whole, you know, they've got all those marks underneath them.

Speaker 1 Essentially, anyone in those universes who is unidentifiable is now fair game.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, you're not getting anyone from Avatar because I don't think they would like to do that to James Cameron.

Speaker 1 No, that has been. There's some people who are,

Speaker 2 yeah, that's not included in this initial tranche. Let's put it that way.
But Bob Igo, who's Disney CEO, said, I mean, I find it really amazing the way they talk about it.

Speaker 2 He said, you know, you know, we're putting technology and imagination and creativity directly into the hands of Disney fans in a way we've never seen before.

Speaker 2 And Sam Altman, of whom I'm not a fan, the open AI boss, says it shows how creative, AI companies and creative leaders can work together responsibly to promote innovation that benefits society

Speaker 1 gay i i mean really um respect the importance of creativity and help work works reach vast new audiences it does not do by the way any of those things what it does is return investment to the bosses at disney and the bosses of open ai and that's all the more the more in the last couple of years stuff that's happening the more i think my god if marx came back today he'd be like i told you he said look this is literally, it's been hidden away so much, but you couldn't have a better example of how capital just absolutely builds on itself and consolidates, and everyone else is thrown

Speaker 1 onto the pile. All this is, is the consolidation of money into the hands of fewer and fewer and fewer and fewer people.

Speaker 1 And you can see, you know, those three things you just said, Sam Walton said, let's go one by one. What was the first one?

Speaker 2 That they can work together responsibly to promote innovation that benefits society, respect the importance of creativity and help works reach vast new audiences.

Speaker 1 It doesn't do any of those things. It literally does not.
All of those things are currently doable. We've been doing those for years.

Speaker 1 People have been making a living out of those things for years and years and years. People have loved Disney for years and years.

Speaker 2 There's no one out there who's going to be introduced to Mickey Mouse via this.

Speaker 1 Exactly that. The people who are making Bob Iger will make money from this.
Sam Altman will make money from this. Nobody else is going to make money from this.
Nobody else is going to.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you will.

Speaker 2 And we'll get to that in a minute. I do think that there is an element of this.

Speaker 2 This is just a tiny little side side note, but there's something about the timing of this where everyone is losing their minds about

Speaker 2 that, maybe rightly so, about Netflix buying Warners or maybe now Paramount coming in with a hostile. But we talked about this last week, as we know.

Speaker 2 And it's almost, as that sort of forgotten civil servant once said, you know, this is a very good day to very bad news. There's an element of like, well, you're all quite busy with that.

Speaker 2 We're just going to like make every creator's worst nightmare come true by saying, yeah, no, we're just giving them this stuff and they can do what they like.

Speaker 1 Yes, because also, by the way, this is a two-way street.

Speaker 1 So as well as, you know, saying anyone can use this, it opens, it says, and in return for that, Open AI give Disney absolute power to use OpenAI and Sora in any way they want.

Speaker 2 We're going to specifically build tools for Disney. Okay, here we go.

Speaker 1 So who's gaining there? Well, I mean, Disney's budgets will be lower. Will the product be different that you're watching at home? No, so you're not gaining.
at all.

Speaker 1 The product will be exactly the same.

Speaker 2 Well, they say that there are going to be, I mean,

Speaker 1 say that there are going to be fan created works on disney plus which is like oh my god you know finally the fans will be in charge of star wars and by the way all of this is listen we have technology things change culture changes creative people react against what the you know the prevalent technology is all of that is fine but every single time somebody says to you oh this is great news for consumers you have to say okay just walk me through walk me through how this is great news for consumers walk me through how this is great news for the industry industry, walk me through how this is great news for creativity.

Speaker 1 It's not, right? Just be open. Just say, this is great news for how much money I'm going to have in five years' time.
It's not great news for how much money you're going to have in five years' time.

Speaker 1 But oh my God, as I say, if Marx came back, he would be like, whenever I see any conspiracy theorists, I'm always

Speaker 1 from the right from wherever. I just say, you know, this is all Marx.
You know, he said this like hundreds of years ago. You know, if he came back, he'd go, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I know.

Speaker 1 I know that everything's being, you know, run for the benefit of a small group of people. But I told you who that was.
It's the bosses, the people who own all of this stuff.

Speaker 1 And everything they do, every decision they make is to increase their revenue. And if it's that's at the expense of your revenue, that's all well and good.
That's all, it's always been the case.

Speaker 1 No one, no one's winning here apart from the people who've already got the money.

Speaker 2 I agree. And what I think is sort of slightly tragic about all of this is I'm not even sure whether Bob Iger and Disney are even in the little group of people anymore, because the big tech

Speaker 2 is the little group of people.

Speaker 2 There is a counterpoint to this, which I'm just going to put in the interest of fairness, which is it's not all marks yeah it's not all what disney has rapaciously licensed every one of those characters a million times onto everything from obviously lunch boxes duvet covers just whatever um

Speaker 2 also

Speaker 2 what can you do with something that's trying to eat your face other than try and get on its back which is what they're which probably their argument chat gpt don't forget don't forget open ai said oh all of you studios in fact not even you studios every individual creator is going to have to opt out otherwise we're just going to assume that we can train Sora too on this.

Speaker 2 And so, trying to manage it,

Speaker 2 there was a line in Bob Iger's statement, which was, um, we'd rather participate,

Speaker 2 which I felt was like, oh, because they Disney sort of are a particular case.

Speaker 2 And so, I mean, everyone's a particular case, but their particular circumstances are that they entered the streaming wars late.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they felt it doesn't matter, we can enter the streaming wars when we like because we're Disney and we've got all the staff. Well,

Speaker 1 ever since they bought Star Wars and Marvel, they thought we have we have absolutely proof ourselves in every way possible. And within three years, it's like...

Speaker 2 Oh, dear, we don't compete with Netflix.

Speaker 2 We haven't at all. We've got all the stuff.
We spent unbelievable billions actually trying to compete with Netflix and it didn't work. They also don't have anything in user-generated content.

Speaker 2 And a lot of people don't, but they don't have anything in user-generated content. So you're thinking they don't want to be caught napping or caught being arrogant again.

Speaker 2 So they are really selling all of this stuff down the river to say, well, at least we were there at the start, or they're not there at the start, but at least we're, you know, we're leading the friends.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't disagree. I don't know what else they can do because this is coming down the pipe at them.
I just think you have to be open about it. You have to be honest about it.

Speaker 1 And you do have to try and spread the benefits of it if you can. And I don't think they will do that.
But yeah, if you're Disney, then you are in

Speaker 1 certainly the content side of Disney, the animation side of Disney, which is what a lot of people think of when they think of classic Disney, is it takes a really, really long time to make.

Speaker 1 If you have a flop, uh-oh, you've got another three years to wait until your next one comes along. And suddenly Disney is an always-on company.
They've got this

Speaker 1 cast of characters. They've got this IP.
And suddenly there's going to be content just on tap constantly.

Speaker 2 Because they've got Open AI building the tools for them.

Speaker 1 And what that's the other thing is because OpenAI are doing the tools, the product that they are making themselves is going to be quicker and quicker and quicker. So for Disney, it kind of makes...

Speaker 1 absolute sense. But, you know, for a game.

Speaker 2 And also the level of sort of the idea that, you know, interesting things are going to be produced by this. Okay.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 some will, but amongst the slop, it, it, it, far, the hit rate will be obviously wildly diminished. Yeah.
Um, and there is already lots of sort of fake Disney stuff on Sora.

Speaker 2 I lots of Disney and Pixar stuff.

Speaker 2 Just remember, it's not supposed to be anything adult. There's nothing.

Speaker 2 But I saw, I've seen so many of these. You know, there's a trailer about this guy and he's got a really strong arm.
How does his arm get so strong?

Speaker 2 A really overdeveloped right arm, you know, meet masturbator, and it's all like done as Pixar. And then there's a team of little girl gymnasts and they call themselves Predator.

Speaker 2 And I was like, oh, this is so like it always ends, you know. I actually stopped watching.

Speaker 1 What are you putting into the search boxes?

Speaker 2 I've just watched a montage of fake, um, fake Pixar trailers on that are available now on Sora.

Speaker 1 And by the way, uh, Sora 2,

Speaker 1 Disney don't own any of that. And all that this, I haven't, they haven't released every single sort of the back end of this entire deal.

Speaker 1 But Disney will own a large proportion of anyone who does, you know, it'll be user-generated, but will be Disney IP owned.

Speaker 2 And again, that's... Well, they've sent a cease and desist immediately to Google to say, you can't do this anymore, to Gemini.
You can't do it. Good luck with that.

Speaker 1 And if Disney sue you, they've got a chance of you paying them back.

Speaker 1 Whereas if an individual writer whose work has been scraped wants to sue them, very, very difficult to do. But I do think it's, you know, Disney have done it.

Speaker 1 As you you say they've hidden it in a good week to hide things it does mean that genie is out the bottle it does mean that all of the other companies it would be beholden on them to do the same thing and so it means that all of this stuff this stuff we we talked about a couple of years ago which is which is you know that anything that you love any franchise that you love you will be able to create your own version of it you'll be able to put yourself in it you'll be able to put whoever you want in it and that's the thing that starts now is that all everything is everything all the time all of this particular period reminds me on a much more enormous scale of what happened with print publishers, newspapers, we used to call them, when Google turned up.

Speaker 2 And they none of them, like, they just gave everything free to Google because they wanted to seem modern and they didn't want to be left behind and they didn't understand.

Speaker 2 And they believed all, you know, all of the stuff that the Google founders and people like that said to them, which is like, oh, information wants to be free.

Speaker 2 It's like, no, no, you want our stuff for free. That's different.
And actually, look at them now. You know, this, it's a business that's completely sort of destroyed itself.

Speaker 2 Not completely, but it's massively, massively devalued itself.

Speaker 2 And I believe that this is just a devaluation of

Speaker 2 all of the, because people wanted eyeballs, you see. Yeah.
They're not so much in the eyeballs game now, Disney. They're not worried about that so much, but they're worried about just like losing.

Speaker 2 influence or you know not having anything in user generated but it it you can only get it by devaluing your own creation to give an example, if your experience of Donald Duck in the next 20 years is

Speaker 1 a series of 30-second long user-generated videos, then which is a quite unspeakable thing.

Speaker 1 It is absolutely indistinguishable from if I have David Duck and I do something that, you know, is indistinguishable. The fact that it's Donald Duck.

Speaker 1 becomes meaningless within a couple of years when there's so much of it because you know you haven't created nonetheless people will sit for a and have a month-long meeting in Burbank saying I just don't think he'd do that yeah whereas nobody is sitting in their bedroom on their computer just thinking well i first of all that's disgusting and no i don't think he'd do that everyone's just like i'm just gonna make him do that there's an amazing piece by corey doctora who's a guy who came up with the term inshitification which i sent to you this week about oh it's brilliant it's really interesting it's a head of a book that he's writing it's called the reverse centaur and Basically, the reverse centaur, the image of that is, you know, if you are a human head with the body of AI, then it's quite useful because it's your brain and something is carrying you.

Speaker 1 Whereas actually,

Speaker 1 what we're going to have is an AI head and you're the body's going to have to carry it around. You're going to do all the work.
So he talks about radiology.

Speaker 2 You work for it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he talks about radiology. He said, well, look, if you have 10 radiologists and their work is checked by AI, then that's great.
That's, you know, that really works.

Speaker 1 However, if you sack nine of your radiologists and everything is looked at by AI and there's one radiologist who has to just double check AI, then that person has all the responsibility.

Speaker 1 Whatever AI hallucinates, it's going to be his fault. So that's his basic principle.

Speaker 1 But one of the really interesting things that I thought in that essay was he talks about how insignificant the entertainment industry is to AI. Yeah.
Okay. All it is is a shop window.

Speaker 1 You know, if you, if you, you know, looked at the kind of the noise around AI, so much of it is books, music, film, TV. And

Speaker 1 AI doesn't care. I mean, there's not, that's a really, really tiny industry for AI.

Speaker 1 If you're AI, you care about healthcare, you care about energy grids, you care about supply chain automation, you know, you care about the finance industry.

Speaker 1 There are trillions and trillions of dollars. Disney, all this is, is publicity.
All this is a shop window.

Speaker 1 It's a slop window. Yes.
It's for

Speaker 1 what AI can do to make sure that every single office in every single country in the world and every single business is saying, oh, my God, my kid did this on ChatGPT.

Speaker 1 I wonder if we could use this for our supply chain. I wonder if there's a way that we could use that.
So entertainment for them, they don't care.

Speaker 1 So Disney has signed signed this deal they own a bit of open ai fine you know it's a lost leader but but it really really is because you know the entertainment industry the one thing they can do is you know put up a fuss you know they have a they have a you know they they oh they can do fuss yeah

Speaker 1 they can they can really do fuss but but it it's it's it's not it's nothing to them.

Speaker 1 It's meaningless as a revenue stream. They could sell every book in the world and it would mean nothing compared to 0.1% of you know logistics for shipping lanes out of Asia.

Speaker 1 I mean it's it's it's literally meaningless other than it's an amazing amazing shop window. But it just

Speaker 1 makes gonna make us all culturally a bit poorer.

Speaker 2 Because the entertainment and industry is allowing itself to be used in this way.

Speaker 1 But what can you do? I mean I mean genuinely if you are again counterpoint if you are Disney what is it that you can do?

Speaker 2 I wouldn't allow it. I just think that

Speaker 2 I just genuinely think look at what happened to newspapers. They devalued their own.

Speaker 2 And now people are paying for things and people are paying for expensive newsletters and they're paying for, I don't know, websites like Puck or something like that.

Speaker 2 That's actually quite expensive and has people in all different fields covering lots of different things. And they're paying a lot of money for those prestige things.

Speaker 2 They're not paying, they don't want to pay for newspapers anymore because those people just completely devalued everything and they chased things at the wrong time.

Speaker 2 People in sort of editorial creatives made business decisions and they made bad ones. And now look,

Speaker 2 there's nothing much left. And everyone is, you know, pivoting again to video and doing all sorts of things again to try and save themselves.

Speaker 2 But it's a bit late because they just got so seduced by the idea of being part of modernity and at the forefront of it. And in fact, they were just being completely used by it.

Speaker 2 And when they weren't needed anymore, then they could say, oh, sorry, we're turning off the news feed on Facebook. Now we don't need it.

Speaker 2 It's just actually, it's more of a hassle than it's worth to us. It's like, oh my God, now no one will see our stuff anymore.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so the proposition is: how do we get our

Speaker 1 quality journalism out there to a wider audience and cheaper? And it ends up, how do we get our quality journalism out there to a smaller group of people and more expensive?

Speaker 2 Would valuing ourselves have actually worked better than devaluing ourselves? And that's the central question.

Speaker 2 And this is, Disney has decided that devaluing themselves is better, and then maybe they don't have a choice, or it's the better choice of two not great ones.

Speaker 1 But it's not, you know, the end game for Open AI, there's an amazing thing that came out this week called Non-Player Combat, which is the world's first 100%

Speaker 1 AI reality show and you can watch it on YouTube it's essentially a battle royale show where six contestants contestants AI contestants are put in different environments and they each have to survive and then kill each other and dropped onto a fake island one remains yeah one of them's sort of in an art the arctic one of them's in a jungle and it look you know looks amazing up to a point and three of them used to be in the army one of them goes i had a tough upbringing cut to make a picture of someone in front of a massive house in america i mean the whole thing is absolutely one of them's in the army and he became a navy seer which i thought was an interesting hold on a minute but also

Speaker 1 they they have a presenter yeah a character called clara voss who literally does like five minutes you go no the sorry i'm so sorry the whole point of this is you don't have to do that yeah you don't have to do the i'm going to explain what this show is just drop them in there and have them fight each other okay that's we can handle that it is so boring the interesting thing about it is it's so unsatisfying it doesn't scratch any itch at all as a viewer i mean literally none every single thing it does can be done better by television or video games there is nothing that it does.

Speaker 2 It's unwatched. I find it unwatchable.

Speaker 1 Unwatchable.

Speaker 2 Remember in your old

Speaker 2 video games when they were advertised on TV, and you'd be like, wow, then, you know, no disrespect because Call of Duty now looks amazing.

Speaker 2 But like early versions of those things, and you'd be like, wow, this looks amazing. And there'd be a little line on the ad saying, not actually in-game footage.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 all right.

Speaker 2 Well, this, it felt to me like, even though it's, you know, the graphics are whatever it's called,

Speaker 2 but it's so, it left left me so cold that I felt like I was watching game footage. Yeah.
But unlike in gaming where I have agency, I, what's the point of this?

Speaker 1 But that's like, remember when everyone said, oh, 3D TV, that's going to be a big thing. Yeah.
And you go, well, no, because it's not,

Speaker 1 doesn't give us anything. And the guy behind it, you can tell, you know, I looked at his, he was, he was a director and everything he's done gets like kind of 3.9 on IMDb.

Speaker 1 So at some point, someone will get hold of AI and do something extraordinary with it. But just letting AI do it is not going to work for anybody.

Speaker 1 But also, that is not what, you know, nobody's master plan is how do we replace the entertainment industry with AI. It's not going to, that's, there's not money in them.

Speaker 1 But unfortunately, the side effect of the deals that they are now doing means that that's where we're going to head. So no one creatively is winning, really.

Speaker 1 Creative people will do amazing things with AI. And you talk to most creative people and they find a way that AI is useful for them.

Speaker 1 But a future where AI creates the programs that we watch and the films that we watch and the music that we listen to,

Speaker 1 It's sort of for the birds, I think.

Speaker 2 That sort of grift, the endless thing of saying, you won't be replaced by AI, but you'll be replaced by someone using AI. It's like kind of jump on the boat now, guys, or else you're going to miss it.

Speaker 1 And I do think that you'll mechanic for what Disney has done. You will be marking AI's homework for the rest of your life.
And every time it gets something wrong, I tell you who's getting fired.

Speaker 1 It's not AI. It's you.
What do we do about it?

Speaker 2 Well, I feel that it's such a shame in some ways that it's Disney because although, as I say, they have rapaciously marketed everything forever.

Speaker 2 But if there is a sense, if they're doing with all of that stuff, then will everyone else just, is there just a sort of side that you can't resist that you have to follow?

Speaker 1 You know, at the moment, you can't use people's likenesses, but in the same way that, you know, music people, Bowie and Diddon people worked out years ago, hold on, when I'm 60 or 65, I'm going to sell every single one of my rights for 300 million to

Speaker 1 an investment company. If you are, I'm not saying Robert De Niro, but say you're Robert De Niro and an investment company says, here is half a billion pound for your likeness.

Speaker 2 We're not worried about him, are we?

Speaker 2 How do you pick apart the people who worked on an animation?

Speaker 1 But exactly that. The people like Robert De Niro are going to be able to sell themselves.

Speaker 1 You know, the Brad Pitts of this world, they will be able to sell their likenesses and their voice in perpetuity.

Speaker 1 But that means that who else comes to, you know the pipeline starts getting clogged by people who were famous 40 50 60 70 years ago who can still star in movies there comes a point where that whole industry gums up i think yes and i think because creativity just it's you you can't keep it down you know you can't that's the point of creativity you know whatever the conditions have been in whatever society there's ever been creative people find a way through they find a way through the cracks and the more and more monolithic these big companies get and the more and more they think oh actually we're controlling more and more of this industry And I just think they sow the seeds of their own destruction.

Speaker 1 And I think this Disney deal with open AI, although you can see how it makes sense around a boardroom table, I don't think it makes sense for the long term of the industry.

Speaker 1 And also, it is not going to help any of us. And they should stop lying and saying that it is.
They should just say shareholder value. That's all it is.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right. Shall we now go to a break?

Speaker 1 We shall. More Marxism after this.

Speaker 5 This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Carvana lets you buy your next car on your terms.
Explore a massive inventory online, filter for what matters, and find your perfect match.

Speaker 5 Then choose delivery to your home or pick it up at one of Carvana's iconic car vending machines. Every car also comes with a seven-day money-back guarantee, so you can make sure it's the right fit.

Speaker 5 Buy your car on Carvana. Delivery or pickup fees may apply.
Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com.

Speaker 1 Carvana.

Speaker 1 When you own your own business, you own every decision.

Speaker 1 Catch the red eye or take the 6 a.m.

Speaker 2 Make a new hire or promote internally.

Speaker 1 Celebrate a win with the toast at the gate or unwind at the lounge.

Speaker 1 Big props to this team. Some decisions are a win-win.
Like earning eight times points on Chase Travel, introducing Chase Sapphire Reserve for business.

Speaker 1 With $2,500 in annual value, it's the business card that gives back all you put in. Visit chase.com slash reserve business to learn more.
Cards issued by J.P.

Speaker 1 Morgan Chase Chase Bank and any member of DIC subject to credit approval. Terms apply.

Speaker 3 Tito's handmade vodka is America's favorite vodka for a reason.

Speaker 3 From the first legal distillery in Texas, Tito's is six times distilled till it's just right and naturally gluten-free, making it a high-quality spirit that mixes with just about anything.

Speaker 3 From the smoothest martinis to the best Bloody Marys, Tito's is known for giving back, teaming up with nonprofits to serve its communities and do good for dogs.

Speaker 3 Make your next cocktail of Tito's, distilled and bottled by Fifth Generation Inc., Austin, Texas, 40% alcohol by volume. Savor responsibly.

Speaker 1 Welcome back, everyone.

Speaker 1 Before we talk about Tarantino slagging people off, which I'm looking forward to, just to point people in the direction of our episode on Thursday, our Q ⁇ A, which is with Simon Cowell.

Speaker 1 I found it genuinely fascinating.

Speaker 1 If you haven't watched Simon Cowell, The Next Act on Netflix, and you have Netflix, and you're going to listen to that interview, it's definitely worth watching an episode or two if you want to, because I think we had some disagreements with him about what was going on in that show.

Speaker 1 That was quite an event. I rather enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.
Very much so. Yeah.
Very much so.

Speaker 1 So that's out on Thursday, or it's out today to

Speaker 1 members.

Speaker 2 Now, Quentin Tarantino, a week or so ago, he went on... Brettie Snellis's podcast, which is a place famously for speaking your mind.

Speaker 2 And I think the question put to him was like, you know, can you talk about your 10 best movies so far of the 21st century?

Speaker 2 In the course of talking about various things, he said, Oh, there would there will be blood will be higher up, but don't I don't like Paul Dano.

Speaker 2 You know, he's young, the sort of young little preacher who plays opposite. Paul Dano.
Um, um, yeah, plays opposite Daniel De-Lewis.

Speaker 2 And Quentin Tarantino said, Obviously, it's supposed to be a two-s-hander, but it's drastically obvious. It's not a two-hander.
And Paul Dano's weak source.

Speaker 1 Listen, he's not not, he went on a got on a roll. He said, He's weak source.
He's a weak sister. He's the weakest male actor in the SAG.
He is the limpest dick in the world.

Speaker 1 He is a weak, weak, uninteresting guy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a podcast. I mean, that's how people talk, isn't it?

Speaker 2 Some other people got a few. There was a few other drive-bys.
Owen Wilson.

Speaker 2 He put Midnight in Paris at the Woody Allen film at number 10. And he said, I really can't stand him.

Speaker 2 And then he said, but actually, I watched it again and thought, oh, actually, maybe I'm just watching for him. And by the end, I thought, oh, he's not.
He's not that bad.

Speaker 2 So we're just sort of talking around this up.

Speaker 2 Matthew Lillard, by the way, I cannot believe he bothered reacting to it because he's just opened enormously in Five Nights at Freddy's 2, which may not be a critical darling, but he's made a lot more than Quentin Tarantino's last movie did when it opened at the box, obviously, you know, and Quentin Tarantino's an ass.

Speaker 2 Anyway, Matthew Lillard said it hurts your feelings. It fucking sucks.
He wouldn't say that to Tom Cruise.

Speaker 2 I mean, I doubt he would care. I'd love to hear what Quentin Tarantino had to say about Tom Cruise.

Speaker 1 He is a weak sister.

Speaker 2 He might like him a bit more as an actor. But now Matthew Lillard's child has written a defense of him.

Speaker 2 So many film industry names have come out and supported for like poor Dano.

Speaker 2 Ben Stidder said he's amazing you know matt reeves the batman director has said he's he's an incredible actor an incredible person alec baldwin's kind of the coveted alec baldwin endorsement these days uh daniel dade lewis has let it be known by his representatives that you know been the most enormous blow-up okay quenta tarantino is a brilliant director and an obvious notorious

Speaker 2 every cameo by the way that he's ever insisted on in all his movies he's rubbishing like okay he's not a great actor really he's not a great actor

Speaker 1 he's pretty i i wouldn't call him strong source. No, he's not.
He's not a strong source. Is he a strong sister?

Speaker 2 No, I don't mind the monologue in the kitchen and sleep with me about whether Tokhan's a gay movie, but that's an old one and it's not even his movie.

Speaker 2 I have to say, but I feel that the entertainment industry in particular needs more candor and drama and people saying things. Now, you may not like it.

Speaker 2 By the way, I wouldn't even bother reacting to it. So what?

Speaker 2 It's just literally, it's something someone said on a podcast, not to be rude, but so much prefer it when people talk like this and the idea that creatives don't do this i loved that comment that sydney screeny made last year when she said the entire industry all people say is women empowering other women none of it's happening all of it's fake and affront for all the other stuff they say behind everyone's back yes it's hollywood they're absolutely vile about each other but that's why

Speaker 2 they keep it secret don't keep it secret stop keeping it secret okay authenticity i sorry to go back to the endless watchword of the age is what people want all the ascendant media is authentic, and people, you know, are out there swashbuckling all day long.

Speaker 2 The reason part of their influence has ebbed away is because everybody thinks they're fake, and they are fake because they are all slagging each other off behind each other's back.

Speaker 1 Any autobiography of any Hollywood film director or actor is always brilliant because they tell the truth about what happened.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they're like, why didn't you say that about Steve McQueen at the time? That's amazing.

Speaker 2 But at least you said it now. Nowadays, you just don't hear anybody speaking their mind at all.
And I was just trying to think of, like, when you do, it is genuinely hilarious.

Speaker 2 So, can I just do some of the great. Yes, please.
I'm going to start with.

Speaker 2 I think probably Tarantina was punching down there. But let's have some punching across because punching across is great.
How can you hate punching across? Okay. Sharon Osborne on Amanda Holden.

Speaker 2 They're both in the Simon Cowell extended universe, as you know. She said, the truth is, you don't know me, Amanda.

Speaker 2 You know nothing about my history in the music industry, my achievements, the artists I've worked with, the shows I produced, and my global celebrity.

Speaker 2 Unlike you, the brand of Sharon Osborne is known worldwide.

Speaker 2 Danny Minogue, Sharon Osborne, said about her, working with her was unbearable, intolerable, and an odious chore.

Speaker 2 Outwardly, Danny seemed, oh, I love kids and puppies, but in my opinion, she was dark, very dark. What you saw was definitely not what she got.

Speaker 1 Yes, please.

Speaker 2 You see, Reaper Everett did it with Madonna. I mean, that's punching up, I think.
Reaper Everett on Madonna, I think he called her a whiny old barmaid, a she-man.

Speaker 2 He later said, I was trying to be complimentary. I don't know why she took it so badly.
But this is what we want. But I believe there is a high watermark of this, completely high watermark.

Speaker 2 It is totally punching up. This guy is my hero.
Bronson Pinchot. I've mentioned this on this before, but I'm going to do some of the quotes from this interview.

Speaker 2 There was, the Onion have a sister publication called the A. V.
Club. I'm really honestly, this is about 10 or 15 years ago.

Speaker 1 Can we explain who Bronson Pinchot is?

Speaker 2 He has lots and lots of kind of... character roles in movies.
He's like the art gallery owner in Beverly Hills.

Speaker 1 Well, that's the thing that everyone knows in from is is when Eddie Murphy is doing that supposedly improv scene with Bronson Pinchot when he's trying to get into the gallery and is all you know.

Speaker 2 He's saying, you know, get out of here. I can't because it's true.
He's supposed to, I think his name is Serge. Yeah.
He's a black polo neck at LA Gallery.

Speaker 1 That's Bronson Pinchot. I was not aware that he was a Serbian.

Speaker 2 I believe it's probably the greatest celebrity interview because of the people he goes for. Okay.
He says few recollections on every film. Okay.

Speaker 2 And he says, well, you know, one of the most freeing things about not being on primetime TV anymore, especially when it's aimed at children, is that you don't have to edit so much.

Speaker 2 My God, back in the day, you couldn't say anything. Okay.
We begin with Tom Cruise, with whom he appeared in Risky Business.

Speaker 2 He said that Tom Cruise was tense and he made constant, constant unrelated homophobic comments.

Speaker 2 And he said, years later, when people started to torment him with that, I used to think, God, that's so fitting. Because you tormented a lot of people as a 20-year-old.

Speaker 2 By the way, there are people like Tom Hanks, who he says are just absolutely wonderful. Yeah, of course, and said, just completely delightful, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 But my favorite, because we can't do all of it, but I do do urge you to find it we'll put it in the show notes this interview is denzel washington because again this is punching up if you're brought some pincho he said he was encouraged under fire with him he said he's one of the most unpleasant human beings i've ever met in my life this movie was a real low point because denzel washington was behind this that incredibly cowardly bullshit of this is my character not me he was really abusive to me and everybody on that movie and his official explanation was that his character didn't like me i'd spent my entire salary on my time with my shrink just for getting me through it he says this is how he got how he stopped it with Denzel eventually.

Speaker 2 He said, I put my hands on his shoulders and I very gently but firmly said, I don't do abuse. And if you say one more word of abuse to me, I am on a plane.

Speaker 2 And if you don't have, and you don't have enough money to keep me here, that was the end of it. I've never heard any abuse, taken any abuse again.

Speaker 2 Denzel Washington cured me forever of thinking there is any amount of money or anything that could ever, ever make it okay to be abused.

Speaker 2 The script supervisor on that movie said it's like watching someone kick a puppy. He was so vile.
And after that, I would never endure it again.

Speaker 2 That blew up even at the time, even though now, obviously that would be the biggest clickbait forever and we'd just be talking a lot more than Tarantino's comments.

Speaker 2 And particularly because Broch, it would be who? Who said this?

Speaker 1 Well, because there's a fascinating bit, again, in that Ed Zwick book, the Hits, Flops, and Other Allusions, where he directed Courage Under Fire and is very good pals with Denzel Washington and has very nice things to say about him.

Speaker 2 Even back then, the Wall Street Journal, everyone by then is just like, sorry, who is this guy? He will say anything. This is amazing.
So they went back to follow up with him like two days later.

Speaker 2 And he said, I regret my choice of words there. And I would like to amend my statement by saying I found Denzel's willingness to be ungenerous, unkind, knowingly hurtful, both

Speaker 2 mentally and physically to myself and the crew, to be the saddest misuse of stardom I have ever experienced or hoped to experience.

Speaker 2 What a legend.

Speaker 2 We want more of this, not less.

Speaker 1 Come on.

Speaker 2 That's amazing. I understand people want to have each other's backs.
And it's nice to sort of come out and say, oh, you know, I'm going to defend Paul Dane.

Speaker 2 Nobody defended Sidney Sweeney, I noticed, over her jeans thing. But people

Speaker 2 do talk like this all the time in the entertainment industry. Constantly.

Speaker 2 And Hollywood has this impression of this being this rarefied, inauthentic, fake place, not allowing anyone to speak their mind. It's kind of pointless.

Speaker 2 It reminds me of like when footballers used to get fined ridiculous amounts of money for like a minor tweet.

Speaker 2 I just can't stand it. Let people say something freely.

Speaker 1 I mean, listen, it makes it makes me, you know, look to myself. And I really should let everyone know that Alexander Armstrong's a cup.

Speaker 1 But uh

Speaker 1 can I say he's not I hope you beat that by the way but no he's not I hope you beat that too we don't say that word on our heads

Speaker 1 he's a genuinely lovely man I wonder why it is what it is in the DNA of Hollywood and and of all you know entertainment television that makes that happen I guess that everyone works with each other a lot I guess that people are moving between jobs almost endlessly so you're kind of constantly working with people who've worked with people and you might be working with them next year.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Maybe it's that.

Speaker 1 Maybe if you're on completely different sides and completely different companies and you're a lifer somewhere, you're able to be a little bit more dismissive of somebody.

Speaker 1 And this, you are always going to bump into someone. It's quite a small, you know, it's quite a small world, the world of entertainment.
So it takes a hell of a personality type to really...

Speaker 2 leave one out there. But I do think that it is part of the reason why people just think it completely lacks relevance because the rest of culture is not like this anymore.

Speaker 2 The rest of culture is people really quite often saying what they think and being forced into candid confessions and all sorts of things like that.

Speaker 2 And if you don't allow that to exist and it's kind of policed to such a ridiculous degree, then please don't be surprised when people don't necessarily want to watch the films and they think the whole thing's fake and ridiculous.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's not a single person who ever sits in a makeup room and the first question is not, who's the worst person you've worked with?

Speaker 1 I mean, it always is. Yeah.
It always is.

Speaker 2 And sometimes in those things, they've got four hours to be made up as the thing. And you can really imagine they could get quite a lot of good stories from one of those sessions.

Speaker 1 We can beep out the answer to this, but I was talking to one lovely makeup artist and saying it's the worst person you ever worked with uh he said i was working somewhere someone came in onto a show and like a huge entourage and i was doing his makeup and you know as always you say oh you're everything all right uh and uh you know the first thing you always say is there anything you're allergic to so he said is there anything allergic to and he just absolutely fixed a stare in the mirror and just went yeah you

Speaker 1 And that was

Speaker 1 can you believe that?

Speaker 2 No way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Isn't that crazy wow that'll be someone to be sued by

Speaker 2 a bombshell yeah right we're back we're back on thursday with that simon cow and on friday we have going to be discussing the matter of whether or not david hasselhoff ended the cold war one of your speciality subjects

Speaker 2 i would say one of my real speciality niches any recommendations this week marina well i've like many many viewers i finished celebrity race across the world and my chosen couple won um although they were all great, but I absolutely loved Harley Moon.

Speaker 2 It's always the person who isn't the most famous, of course, as we know with this format. Who you love, thought she was absolutely lovely.

Speaker 2 And there was quite a few episodes early on when he was like, You know, I think she's starting to understand my brain more and stuff. I was like, What about her brain? Sort of fought this format.

Speaker 2 I love, I mean, it's so

Speaker 2 places they went this time. There were places I'd never seen, heard of these extraordinary places.
It really made me want to go.

Speaker 2 And as always, you know, you love the person who is not the famous person in the couple.

Speaker 1 And it's such a, and again, it's funny that thing of,

Speaker 1 you know, when something's been out a few weeks, you go, oh, I mustn't recommend that. But that these days, of course, you have to recommend it because everyone's got so much to watch.

Speaker 1 And it's easy to forget that Celebrity Race Across the World came out and that you love the last series. And this one is absolutely.
up to the same standard. It's just great.

Speaker 1 It's just a really lovely bit of TV. I'd say it's an amazing bit of TV to watch over Christmas with the family because kids are watching.
I mean, everyone of every age can watch it. It looks amazing.

Speaker 1 You go to these beautiful places and it's always incredibly moving.

Speaker 2 And with that, we will see you on Thursday.

Speaker 1 See you on Thursday, Ron, for Simon Cowell.