The Monster He Made: Murdoch, Trump, and the Price of Power (Part 4)

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That's the restispolitics.com. Hi there, it's Alistair here.

Speaker 1 And in the penultimate episode of our mini-series on media magnet Rupert Murdoch, we look at his big power base in the United States, Fox News.

Speaker 1 The rise of Fox News over the past couple of decades has influenced so much of American politics and frankly facilitated the rise of one Donald J. Trump.

Speaker 1 If you're interested in more, we've included a clip here from this week's episode. But if you want the whole thing and get all the benefits of Trip Plus membership, sign up at the restispolitics.com.

Speaker 1 There's an amazing line in

Speaker 1 your book which makes me think of Trump. But this is you writing about Murdoch.
He is...

Speaker 1 and this is a fundamental entrepreneurial talent, a master illusionist. It's the essential entrepreneurial skill to convince people that you are what you have yet to become.
So

Speaker 1 it's back to this point about people aching to believe that he's not as bad as everybody says. He'll be good for the Wall Street Journal.
He'll respect the rules that we put in place.

Speaker 1 And then every time he lets them down.

Speaker 1 Is that his great skill?

Speaker 2 I think Rupert has a lot of skills. In the end, as

Speaker 2 mendacious as you certainly, and

Speaker 2 I would agree, you want to characterize Murdoch,

Speaker 2 you have to say somehow he accomplishes what he sets out to do. And this becomes a perfect, you know,

Speaker 2 the means justify the ends. You know,

Speaker 2 most people never get to the end. And

Speaker 2 he manages to. It's like he just sits there

Speaker 2 until it gets done.

Speaker 1 He never gives up. So that's his purchase of Dow Jones.
It's a big, big thing in the American media landscape.

Speaker 1 But in a sense, what's had the really big influence, certainly on American politics, is Fox News. And we mentioned.
And just

Speaker 2 before you get there, because I think it's important, he buys the Wall Street Journal at the top of the market.

Speaker 2 So, you know, it's still in his head he's pursuing something that other people in the media business know has passed. And

Speaker 2 he will overpay, overpay by a factor of probably three

Speaker 2 for the Wall Street Journal, and they will write down almost the entire value of that business within a year, within, I guess, 18 months.

Speaker 1 So he's actually not just doing this about money. This is about owning the vehicles that allow him to have greater command of a political space as well.

Speaker 2 Even that, I think, is just owning newspapers.

Speaker 2 Just the love of newspapers.

Speaker 1 We mentioned briefly

Speaker 1 in the last episode, Roger Ailes. I don't think I ever met Roger Ailes.
He might have been at one thing I spoke at in Mexico. I can't remember.

Speaker 2 I came to know Roger very well and to like him considerably. And he was, yes, and he was even more mendacious than Rupert.

Speaker 1 Why do you like these lying people? What is it, Michael, about these liars that attract you?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, it's a really

Speaker 2 good question because they are,

Speaker 2 I don't know, because they are so vivid and

Speaker 2 cynical and in their own ways, honest.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Honest because he doesn't hide the fact that he's a liar.

Speaker 2 Exactly. And out of the other side of his mouth he will tell you the truth.
They're incredible storytellers also.

Speaker 1 Roger Ailes was a storyteller. Yeah, yeah.
But Murdoch is not a great storyteller.

Speaker 2 No, no. He's a mythmaker.

Speaker 2 My feelings about Murdoch is

Speaker 2 I actually like Murdoch.

Speaker 2 when you're with him,

Speaker 2 you know, because

Speaker 2 first thing he actually tells you

Speaker 2 what he's thinking at the moment. He just doesn't have any self-awareness, so he can't tell you why he's done something.
You're not really drawn to Murdoch because

Speaker 2 he's closed off.

Speaker 2 Somebody like Roger Ailes is not.

Speaker 1 And Roger Ailes is somebody who's well-known, pretty well-known in the political world. He's worked for Ronald Reagan.
He's worked for George H.W. Bush.

Speaker 1 He worked for Rudy Giuliani when he was running for mayor in New York. Why does Murdoch hire him?

Speaker 2 Okay, let me just

Speaker 2 dip back a second here. So in the mid-90s, Murdoch is actually trying to buy CNN.
CNN, they won't sell it to him.

Speaker 2 So in a kind of a Murdoch knee-jerk reaction, it's like, okay, you won't sell it to me, then I'm going to start my own.

Speaker 2 So he starts his own 24-7 news network,

Speaker 2 which is

Speaker 2 incredibly expensive. He hires.

Speaker 2 He doesn't know him. Roger Ailes is a

Speaker 2 conservative political

Speaker 2 guy. Because he was available.
He had been working for NBC. He was a well-known television guy who had political experience.

Speaker 2 He was working for NBC and had just been fired from NBC actually for making an anti-Semitic comment about

Speaker 2 someone else in the company. Actually, that someone else in the company is a guy by the name of David Zaslov, who now runs Warner Discovery.
So one of the big people in the industry.

Speaker 2 So he was out of a job and available. And Murdoch got together with him.
They hit it off. And Murdoch hired him.

Speaker 1 Some of the people Ailes did not hit it off with were Murdoch's kids.

Speaker 2 Later. I mean, at the moment, so at the moment, Fox is, Fox begins, it's kind of nothing.

Speaker 1 For how long is it nothing?

Speaker 2 It makes its bones on Clinton Monica Lewinsky. It gets out front of that and

Speaker 2 it immediately, the tabloid culture comes out in a television news product. And again, tabloidism has never worked for Murdoch in the U.S.

Speaker 2 It does in the form of Fox News, although not because of Murdoch. So Fox News is started.
Ailes asks for basically carte blanche on the editorial side. Murdoch gives it to him and he goes to town.

Speaker 2 Now, and Murdoch doesn't...

Speaker 1 Just on that, though, Michael, what is it in Roger Ailes

Speaker 1 that it seems to me throughout Murdoch's life story, uniquely amongst these media executives, Murdoch goes along with that, doesn't intimidate, doesn't interfere. Is that Ailes Force of personality?

Speaker 2 Yes, but more importantly, it's television. And Murdoch doesn't get it.
Murdoch doesn't get television. His only interest in television is that it make money for him.

Speaker 2 The exclusive charm of the business for Murdoch, cash flow. Ailes almost immediately starts to produce this.
The numbers start to go up.

Speaker 2 And because of it, again, this tabloid thing, Clinton, Monica Lewinsky, starts to go up. So within, it starts in 96, and by 2000.

Speaker 2 2001 is beating CNN. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's when Ailes, I think this is in your book, said, you know, he wanted CNN, but I've given him Fox News. Yeah.
How long before Murdoch starts to feel a bit queasy?

Speaker 1 Because what's amazing about your book, I get the thing he doesn't really like Fox News very much.

Speaker 2 He doesn't really care about Fox News. It's kind of a low-rent thing.
Right.

Speaker 2 But it starts to make money.

Speaker 2 It starts to get numbers. He's pleased with it.
Because it's making money. He doesn't have to spend a lot of time with it.
It's not horrible at this point. It's.

Speaker 2 okay. It's yeah, it is what it is.
It's a kind of tabloid thing.

Speaker 1 When does it become very political? When do we get to the point? And tell me this is true.

Speaker 1 Somebody once told me that I was at one of these Murlock events and somebody told me that Roger Ailes every morning sent out a note to all staff that these are the propaganda points that we're making today.

Speaker 2 Roger's a good storyteller. He's very he sees television as a coherent thing.
He sees news as a, it's not CNN, it's not running a newsroom, it's very top-down.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm speaking to an audience.

Speaker 2 I'm not telling, giving the world the news. I'm giving an audience

Speaker 2 what it comes here to get. It starts to become something else.

Speaker 2 something

Speaker 2 more aggressive, more toxic, more clearly agenda-driven in 2008. What happens then? Obama becomes president.

Speaker 2 In 2008, during the campaign, Murdoch becomes, and everybody in his family is an Obama person.

Speaker 1 The children willingly, and Rupert may be.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 he's brought along, and Wendy, too, particularly.

Speaker 2 And the whole world, remember that world, just to go back, it's very hard to remember now. 2008, there's an incredible moment.

Speaker 2 Obama is...

Speaker 1 Optimism. Yes.

Speaker 2 During the campaign, Murdoch has been trying to get a meeting with

Speaker 2 Obama. Obama won't meet with him, but finally agrees.
They show up, I think this is in New York, and Murdoch brings Ailes along. First, Murdoch sits down with Obama, and they have a good meeting.

Speaker 2 And actually, Murdoch says to him, the one thing

Speaker 2 that I've learned, I've known every president,

Speaker 2 something Murdoch is very proud of.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you know what's really interesting about that? I can remember George W. Bush, I'm sure of this, saying to us once, what's this guy Murdoch like? I don't really know him.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I mean, I know that Murdoch has said, point of pride, I've known every president.

Speaker 2 Whether he's forgotten one, very possible. But he says to Obama, this, I've known every president.
I have one piece of advice for you.

Speaker 2 And that's you have six months. That's the moment when you can do something.

Speaker 2 And then Obama, curiously, talks to him about his father. I mean, asks Rupert about Rupert's father, Keith.

Speaker 2 So they have a perfectly civil, respectful discussion. I think they get along.
Then he brings Ailes in, and Obama goes to town on him. Good for him.
I mean, rips him apart.

Speaker 2 You know, you've accused me of being a Muslim. Just a full, full force attack.

Speaker 1 Which, hold on, Murdoch probably didn't enjoy.

Speaker 2 I don't know if that's true. And I've wondered if maybe he staged this

Speaker 2 because he's...

Speaker 1 Nice.

Speaker 2 No, it's not.

Speaker 2 He would like to bring Ailes under control. And he would like, you know, as I say, the family...

Speaker 2 including Murdoch has decided they are supporting Obama.

Speaker 1 Because I'll tell you why I say that. I was once in Tony Blair's flat in Downing Street, Street and Rupert Murdoch came with the two sons, Lachlan and James.

Speaker 1 And we ended up talking about the Middle East. And James started speaking really quite passionately from a pro-Palestinian perspective and

Speaker 1 got quite, you know, aerated about Israel. And of course, Murdoch is, you know, full.
very, very pro-Israeli.

Speaker 1 I remember I said in my diary that I was quite impressed by the way that even though there's the prime minister sitting there, Murdoch kind of let James do a lot of the talking.

Speaker 1 But then, when it got where he could sense that Tony was maybe just thinking this was going a bit far, and James started swearing and saying the fucking Israelis and this sort of stuff, and that was the only

Speaker 1 point when Rupert Murdoch stepped in and said, James, you don't talk like that in the Prime Minister's house.

Speaker 2 But I've so I always feel he doesn't quite like those really no, no, well, he's a conflict of verse, but um, but if somebody else is conducting the confrontation, you you can sit back. Yes.

Speaker 2 But at any rate, I think that this phenomenally backfired on all concerned because,

Speaker 2 yes, because Ailes just

Speaker 2 doubled down. And it gave Fox a whole new edge, the Obama thing.

Speaker 1 And if you go back to our first discussion

Speaker 1 when I was talking about how the way Murdoch operated with his editors and he threw out hints and off they went and thought like he did.

Speaker 1 Ailes is not doing that. Ailes is thinking like Ailes thinks, not how Murdoch thinks.

Speaker 2 Completely. And Ailes is

Speaker 2 undermining, to a large degree, undermining Murdoch.

Speaker 1 And when he said, so there's this phrase, this sentence that Ailes comes out with, once it has become the Fox News that we know today, it's not enough that conservatives like us, but that liberals hate us.

Speaker 1 In his head, Liberals includes

Speaker 1 Lachlan Murdoch, James Murdoch, Elizabeth Murdoch.

Speaker 2 Ailes is always,

Speaker 2 I mean, takes a visceral dislike and opposition to the children. They spend the money I make, Ailes says.

Speaker 1 He also says at one point that Rupert Murdoch is kind of pathetic around those children.

Speaker 2 Completely.

Speaker 2 So Lachlan Murdoch, who was brought back from Australia to be sort of,

Speaker 2 you know, his father's lieutenant, the number two,

Speaker 2 he's basically forced out of the company. Or Ailes and another executive, Peter Chernan, force Rupert to decide.
It's us or him.

Speaker 1 I don't know what Ailes' kind of social views were, but he's sort of

Speaker 1 pretty profoundly homophobic. He's constantly sort of running the line that both the boys are gay.

Speaker 2 Totally, and that he has evidence in pictures.

Speaker 1 Which we've never seen. No.
So he probably doesn't have it.

Speaker 2 Of course not.

Speaker 1 Would Rupert Murdoch be remotely jealous of the fact that Ailes is

Speaker 2 becomes increasingly because this is in this is painful to Murdoch is that the news accomplishment of his life and remember Murdoch sees I'm a newsman is Fox News and he has nothing to do with it.

Speaker 2 It's not his and there's no way he can claim that it is his. It is Roger Ailes's creation and everything happens there because of Roger Ailes.
Murdoch doesn't know what to do about this.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 when I was writing my book, the only stipulation, I could do anything, I could say there was no, they had no control over it, the only stipulation was that I not speak to Ailes because Rupert clearly thought he was going to claim the credit here.

Speaker 1 And I assume you spoke to Ailes. I didn't.

Speaker 2 Oh. I didn't.

Speaker 1 You didn't.

Speaker 2 And I was friends with Ailes before this. I always liked him.
And matter of fact, he hired my, once hired my daughter,

Speaker 2 which was an Ailes thing, very godfather-like. I'll take care of you.

Speaker 1 Remember we talked about the Titanic, that Murdoch was really pissed off that, you know, was it Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet were getting these sort of mega bucks? Did he get pissed off that...

Speaker 1 Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson and these people became multimillionaires from

Speaker 2 they don't become multimillionaires until later. So we're still in the period in which Fox is running at a, you know,

Speaker 2 is a cheap place.

Speaker 1 Okay, so it's growing. But when you're talking about the people.

Speaker 2 People at CNN

Speaker 2 are still

Speaker 2 making a lot of money. Yes, and later.

Speaker 2 So Ailes will be ousted in 2016,

Speaker 2 and then this whole salary scales change

Speaker 2 at Fox.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 does that piss him off?

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 I get the sense with Fox News that it's almost like it becomes a bigger brand than any of the things that are.

Speaker 2 Everything is complicated about Fox News

Speaker 2 for vis-a-vis Murdoch, as it will be complicated about

Speaker 2 Donald Trump.

Speaker 2 I mean, these are things which he theoretically should control, but can't control anymore. They have a life of their own.
So Fox is set in motion, set in motion by Ailes. Ailes creates this fiefdom

Speaker 2 which only he controls. And all of the people at Fox are loyal to Ailes.
They're not loyal to Murdoch. Murdoch is just a kind of a remote,

Speaker 2 unpleasant cloud somewhere out there.

Speaker 1 And today, with Trump in charge again, it's become a given that we talk about a very polarized America. What's your assessment of the role of Fox nation?

Speaker 2 It becomes elemental. It teaches a whole population of the country a new catechism, and it's a right-wing, nationalistic, xenophobic way of thinking.
It is articulated by Fox.

Speaker 2 It's propagandized by Fox.

Speaker 2 The repetitions of Fox drill it into

Speaker 2 the heads of people who become only Fox listeners. It becomes cult-like.

Speaker 1 So you've got the Rupert Murdoch there. You've got the kids who are feeling a bit kind of bruised by stuff.
They don't like L's. They don't like Fox.

Speaker 1 They're still sort of probably back of their mind thinking, dad's getting on a bit. This succession stuff's going to be real.
How are they dealing with all this?

Speaker 2 I'm not sure that they know how to deal with it yet, but their first step and the first thing that they respond to

Speaker 2 is Fox News. I mean, and this is, this becomes, I mean, Fox News, and this is by about 2012.

Speaker 2 Fox News is a major power, and it is a disruptive power and a toxic power.

Speaker 2 And the kids take a stand against it. This is done by a statement from Matthew Freud, who we've spoken about before.

Speaker 2 I mean, he becomes, in his relation, his position in the family is an interesting one, and he's working this, and he has his own agenda, but he steps forward and becomes the spokesman for the children and issues a statement about Fox News, which is devastating.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're absolutely right. The New York Times and Matthew Freud on the record, he's married to Elizabeth and he's also

Speaker 1 openly speaking for her and her siblings. And he says, I am by no means alone within the family or the company.

Speaker 1 in being ashamed and sickened by Roger Ailes's horrendous and sustained disregard of the journalistic standards that News Corporation, its founder, and every other global media business aspires to.

Speaker 2 So it's quite strong stuff. You know, he's throwing down

Speaker 2 a flag here,

Speaker 2 and it is an open challenge. Now, and it immediately backfires because Ailes goes to Rupert and says, you're fucking children.

Speaker 2 I'm going to quit if you don't do something. And what happens? Rupert gives them a new contract worth significantly more money.

Speaker 1 And where do the kids go? They stew this.

Speaker 2 This goes on to create more dissension. And the kids vow to do something about this.

Speaker 1 Well, we'll come on briefly shortly to when they finally see the back of

Speaker 1 Ailes. But meanwhile, Rupert's third marriage is falling apart.
You think it's already fallen apart, but that's now becoming public and it's ending.

Speaker 2 Yes. But even that surprises everyone.

Speaker 2 I remember

Speaker 2 I was in London and

Speaker 2 I remember the moment people started to call,

Speaker 2 they could not believe it that, again,

Speaker 2 a Murdoch marriage was breaking up.

Speaker 2 Now, in hindsight, there have been so many marriages that have broken up. Why should this be a surprise? But there's just something about Murdoch that

Speaker 2 you just don't expect him to have that kind of dramatic personal life, which it turns out he does.

Speaker 1 The age gap was not good. Come on, be honest.
And she's quite a

Speaker 1 vibrant. She's a socialist.

Speaker 2 I mean, she's a social being, a social climber. She's out there.
And I think living with Rupert would be, frankly, very difficult because, you know, he is only interested in work.

Speaker 2 And he's only interested in talking about the media business. And he is, again, I mean, I can't imagine Rupert's personal life.
The cause, the,

Speaker 2 you know, and this is going to be an awkward moment here, but the proximate cause is

Speaker 2 an affair that she is said to have had that Murdoch certainly believes she has had and believes he has evidence of with Tony Blair.