Inside the Copywriting Brain That Powers My Funnels | #Marketing - Ep. 24

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That's sellingonline.com slash podcast. This is The Russell Brunson Show.
What's up, everybody? This is Russell. Welcome back to the show.
I've got a special episode today. I drug one of my favorite people in the room to go talk with me, and he's a little nervous his first time on the podcast, but I'm excited because he's here in town.
Heath is our head copywriter for now five years, right? Yeah, it's been five years. So the way I found Heath originally, and no one could hire him, so don't Google his name.
I don't even tell you his last name. Just kidding.
No, the way I found him initially is Kelly Felix. I hired him for something, and he was showing me how he'd scaled his credit repair thing to like $100 million a year or something.
And I was going through all the trainings, and he's like, oh, one of the things we use a lot are advertorials. And I had never – I'd heard of one, but I'd never done one before.
I was like, do you know anyone you recommend?

And he's like, Oh, there's this writer named Heath. He's like the best in the world of avatorials.
You should hire him. And so that's how we first got introduced.
And I don't know if you remember this or not, but you made me a video. Uh, it was like an hour long video explaining why I should never use an avatório for my business.
I was like, you just told me to not use his services. This guy's great.
And then, uh, we've been working together since then. So it's crazy.
Yeah.

I always say like you hired me by me saying no.

Like the power of no is actually pretty, it can be pretty powerful. No, I was, I was overworked at the time.
I was stuck in an, an American in hotel. Cause our RV was getting worked on.
We were living in an RV at the time. And, uh, I, we got in contact and I was, I was overworked.
I was doing four different projects. I was partner on this gummy brand that ended up falling apart.
Um, and then you, yeah, I got in contact and then I was looking at it and I was like, but it's already converting. Why do you need an editorial? So I did, I did this whole big long, it was like a 40 minute plus video.
And I just talked you out of not hiring me. And then, and then, and then that was the key that gets you

to, uh, and then I couldn't keep you off of me. You kept hitting me up for things.
And so, yeah.

Anyway, he's an amazing copywriter. So he's in office this week.
We're writing copy. We're

actually doing, um, on Friday, me, him and Sean Vossler doing an event. We gonna be going through napoleon hill's truthful advertising and geeking out for advertising for a full day um but he's in office today writing copy with us and so i thought we're recording a podcast episode and i don't talk a lot about copy and copywriting and things like that and so i asked him if he'd come in and reluctantly reluctantly he said yes so do you want to tell people some of your background how you became how you got into the writing world yeah i mean i've been a writer for a long long time i knew i wanted to be involved in film and my background's always been in comedy and i love film comedy comedians and writers and so i always i looked up to certain uh people that i've always admired one of my heroes has always been steve martin and uh Mel Brooks.
And so I always, I looked at their trajectory and what did they do? Same with Conan O'Brien. And I saw a lot of them, you know, they'd go off to college and they'd go get a, they would go into the literary field, the writing field.
And I was like, okay, well, I'm going to go in that field, that area. So I just, just was pushing myself that way.
So when I went into college, I didn't have great grades in high school, but then I really busted my butt in college to get perfect grades. I wanted to get perfect grades because I knew I wanted to be a writer in some capacity.
I knew I wanted to create stories. So I went and I have a bachelor's in English and creative writing.
And then I went back and did my master's in fiction.

And I just told myself, I'm going to get a career in writing somehow.

I'm going to, I don't know what that's going to look like. I needed to make a living in writing.
I didn't want to be a financial advisor, what my dad was. He was always trying to push me to be a financial advisor.
The one thing I do appreciate with my dad is he always told me to be my own boss. So he was, I was raised, he was, he's been an entrepreneur my whole life.
Um, and he always told me, you know, be your own boss. And I always thought being your own boss meant to be a financial advisor.
I was like, no, this is the worst. I could not do it.
I couldn't do numbers. I couldn't deal with finance.
I just, it was so confusing to me. So that's, I got into, I was just at the time after it was after my bachelor's is when I was like, okay, I'm going to get a job and write it.
I didn't know what that would look like. Did you know about copywriting at that time or not? I didn't know about copywriting at that time.
No, no. I – it was, yeah, 2012 and I was just like – I just be able to use words to make a living because at the time my whole goal was I have a, uh, my wife and daughter.
And so I was looking around and that's when I stumbled. This was when I was in Arizona where I'm from and I found a e-com company.
There's a lot of e-com out in Scottsdale, Arizona. So it was an e-com company that for health supplements, but it was a whole range of health supplements, all sorts of different supplements.
So, uh, they liked me because I have an improv background and they liked that I can jump into different voices and different characters and different perspectives and angles because I've been, I was, I've been doing that now for over 15 plus years. And so they hired me and that's when I, that was my first intro into copywriting and I got thrown into the fire of, uh, I mean, I was writing every day was kind of different.
I'd be writing baby formula supplements to bodybuilding supplements the next day. Um, I was the easily the unhealthiest one in the office.
I was not taking care of my body and I was click clacking away, telling other people about other metabolism works. To put it in frame.
How tall are you? I'm, I'm five, seven, so five, seven. And seven and right now you're like what i'm 167 16 how much did you weigh at the time that you're writing the weight loss ads boy i ballooned up to 260 so i was a i was a meatball boy i was a heft i was a hefty boy did writing the copy for those things like was that part of that transformed you like getting shredded and losing weight all kind of stuff or no no? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no at all.
Halfway through the research, like, oh my gosh, this makes sense. You know what's so funny? The reason why I wanted to lose a lot of weight is because, or lose weight is because I was getting tired while reading.
I was just getting so fed up. I was trying to get through, because once I got into grad school, I was really busy.
We were reading like a novel a week and I had to do a lot of reading and quickly and understand it and analyze. And I was getting really sleepy.
And that was my motivating factor was to, so I can read more. How nerdy is that? So I just wanted to get shredded for books.
And that's, yeah. So that's really why I did.
Yeah. And then now I'm, yeah, healthiest I've ever been.
So that's awesome. Very cool.
So I want to talk, I mean, obviously we could go for days talking about copywriting, um, and different things, but I want to bring some unique stuff. Cause I don't think a lot of our audience knows about, about some of the things I want to ask you about.
So, um, in my world, everyone knows about funnels and about landing pages, upsells, downsells, that's what we spend so much time on. Um, maybe we'll come back to that, but what I originally tried to hire you for was a different type of creative and something that, that i think was really big back in the day like you'd see magazines and they'd have these advertorials right they would push somebody to go buy something online or to call a phone number whatever um but then people started using them uh almost like like pre-funnel like before the funnel starts there's this page this advertorial page will you explain kind of what what an advertorial is like how you like how you kind of got into them uh i want people to understand what that is so they can see how this might potentially fit into into their business model and then we talk about specifics on advertorials after that yeah advertorials and they've been used for i when i got into it and then once i did my research and got more into it i didn't realize they've been they, have been used for a very, very long time.
And it's a sneaky way of the reason why it's called advertorial is because it's an ad, but an editorial. So it's made to look like an editorial piece.
Like it's like you would read in the newspaper. It just looks, it blends in, uh, with the newspaper.
It looks as though it's just another article written. And the way it reads also is like a very much like an article.
And then it's, and then it pushes you into a call to action to buy a book, to put information to get a free, there's, there are old ones where you can get like free cassettes, you know, test out these cassettes, check out, check out these records, free recipe book. You can still see them.

I mean there's so many of them today.

Even if you go to like the checkout line at the grocery store,

you pick up like a Women's World magazine and that is filled with advertorials in there.

They'll tell an amazing story of a transformation of someone losing weight

and then it would go into a call to action to get this recipe book of what they've used.

So I got into it. Let's see.
It was through – his name is James Van Elswick. He became an early mentor for me in the native space.
So James did a lot of and continues to do a lot of work in the native space through Taboola, Outbrain. Native advertising.
Native advertising, yeah. So when you go to any of the news sites and you see the ads at the bottom and you click on it, oftentimes it will take you to an article, an ad, but it's made to look like an article as if you're still on that site or you're still involved in that world.
And it's read as if like an editorial piece, but it's an advertorial. So it's like a pre-sale.
It's a pre-sale to sales page. So it's a way for people to get information.
It's used for, for cold audiences, really, really cold audiences. And it's a way to first, uh, understand the problem and then get them interested and then get them over to the sales page.
Like you said, it's interesting because most of the sites I see those ads on, typically they are like the news sites and you scroll down and they look like they're almost like just articles on the news site but there's usually things like tabula right above it or something and usually

they're crazy pictures always like a crazy picture of like some some person like peeling their skin

like eight inches away from their face or some weird like banana that's green or like purple or

like weird things that catch your attention and you're like what is this thing and you click on

it takes you to what looks like an article on that site and then at the end of the article usually

and it's not the structure in a way where it's kind of salesy but not feels more like an article

Thank you. and you click on it, takes you to what looks like an article on that site.
And then at the end of the article, usually the – and it's not – the structure in a way where it's kind of salesy but not – it feels more like an article but then it pushes you to the part where someone's going to buy it, right? Yeah. So that's kind of the visual for you guys trying to imagine what it looks like.
It's something that's happening. It's between the new site, advertorial page, and then from there we go to your funnel.
Yep. And there's all sorts of different types of advertorials too.
And also a level of aggressiveness of like how aggressive the advertorial might be depending on what site you're on. So like you talk about those thumbnails, those different images, they can be really, you know, really kind of a strange fruit that they're holding.
And it talks about like some sort of weight loss supplement. And it'll, it'll mention know, unbelievable, uh, fruit burns three pounds overnight.
And so you click on it. Oftentimes you'll go to what's called a jump page.
That's also an advertorial. A jump page is just a very short one.
And it, it's a page between the website you were just on and a VSL, a video sales letter, which is a long form, you know, a long form video that sells you of course course, the product. So that jump page is used for compliance reasons, but also it's kind of like a tease.
It gets you to want to click over to, to that video, to watch the video. And that jump page will be maybe two, three paragraphs.
It's very short. And then I'll just have a button that says watch now.
So that's another, that's another type. And then you'll have other types that are more longer.
It all varies of how they look depending on e-com or an info product, finance. It all depends on the industry.
Interesting. Now, I saw – this is way back in the day, so it's been a while.
But it was actually pre-ClickFunnels. We were building our NuraCell, NuraPain offer back then.
And we were looking at all the avatorials. That's where a lot of that traffic was coming from.
And I saw a lot of companies like the acai berry and weight loss companies who in the avatorial they'd have two products where they're like, hey, step one, you need to get the acai berries. And step number two, you've got to get the whatever, whatever wrap.
It was pushed into two different funnels. I remember talking to one of the media buyers, and he was saying that for every one cell you get on number one, you get like half a cell on number two or something.
So it increased their cart value by having it. Did you see many of those or do people kind of shit? I haven't seen them for a long time.
So is one of them that stopped working? Yeah. I'm not sure about that.
I can't even recall. I'd have to like look at that, but I don't remember that.
Yeah. They keep thinking like step one, go buy the dot com secrets books.
You understand a funnel. Step number two, get your free ClickFunnels account.
You know, like, and it would be on one page. Yeah.
It was in the article. article yeah it was in the page basically like here's the step-by-step process go get because it was say it was like this is a system so you need like the acai berries are the supplement and this was like a wrap and it was almost like you know or face cream like this face cream is the next step one this was step two um anyway so i just interesting we'll still use steps i still use steps in an avatorial uh and then i because I've taught a lot of people how to do avatarials.
And so at the end of the avatarial, a lot of times they're like, what to do now? And I still do it. I'll say step one, go here.
And then step two, a lot of the times I'll just some sort of urgency. Step two, make sure to order more.
Make sure to order at least three because this is selling out fast and everything. Or we'll also do the reverse kind of like urgency where it's like limit five per household.
So it's almost kind of like it's already selling out so fast we can only limit. And so a lot of times I'll still do the step one, step two, and then step three.
And on the step three, click here now. But it's kind of like in a nice sneaky way of each one is a CTA to the same thing.

It keeps reinforcing the core call to action.

Interesting.

Do you ever get one of those ads that makes you go, why am I even seeing this?

Not long ago, I kept getting served ads for these super fancy chef grade pots and pans,

like premium artisan cookware. And I'm sitting here thinking, you guys, I barely even know how to boil water properly.

I'm more of a protein bar and a podcast guy.

Now, I'm not knocking the product.

It just wasn't meant for me.

And the real problem is that the company probably paid good money to show me that ad. And that's why I always tell marketers that relevance is everything.
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Are you hiring? Indeed is all you need. So, um, okay.
What are other elements that typically you would have in an advertorial? Cause it's not like a sales level. It's like headlines, story, but like it's different, right? The structure.
It is. There's so many different types.
I always, when I was doing them pretty hardcore and pretty consistently every week, I would started doing, we would always test above the fold. So I'd always give three, the main body would always be the same.
So what I would always do is I would do three headlines and three top images and then three leads. And out of those three, we can get a good winner.
And then the main body of the abattoir would be the same because it's always above the fold. You want to test the most because that's where people are landing.
That's where people are bouncing. So we want to see, we would always, and then we would do variations.
So we'd always, yeah, always, always three different headlines, three different images, and then three different leads to go in. So a lead might be, I'd always do a story lead, something that, that evokes that emotion, whatever that motion may be, depending on the product.
So if it's a survival product, there's a different emotion there for a survival product compared to a weight loss supplement, different kind of emotion. And then also the point of view of who is it coming from.
And then, for instance, for a gadget, for a gadget advertorial, a lot of times people love the underdogs. So it's like this, this small, this, uh, you know, startup company is disrupting the billion dollar watch industry.
People love that. Those, those kinds of leads always did really, really well.
So that would be a different lead that I would use in there. And then, uh, and then taking a look at the headlines, I obviously do a lot of funnel hacking.
So I have a massive editorial swipe folder that I keep and I keep adding to it. So I'll save and I'll show different examples from all the different industries of what they're doing for their headlines.
So I always jump in there, take a look. And not only that, but I'll also go to, I look at old advertorials as well.
So my little thing, I've always mentioned this is if you look at old magazines, I'll go to antique shops and find old magazines. You can find old playboys.
I did that. I have a whole stack of really, really old playboys of like seventies and eighties for the articles, for the art, it really is for the ads.
It was so funny. And I, and I, no one believes me, but I'm trying to say it like it, it really is to be honest.
Cause there are, they're pretty astounding. They're amazing.
Uh, the artwork and everything is and everything is so cool. They're really fun to look at.
And so you can look at what they did and you can see what still stands the test of time of what still works today when it comes to a headline and a lead and so on. So he was nerdy.
Last night I bought 15 ads on eBay from LaSalle university because la salle extension university is where napoleon hill used to work for anyway but i started finding their ads and like their long-form ads promoting like them because you could do an extension school to become a lawyer or become a business operator all these different ones but i'll just show them to you but like 15 each one's about 10 bucks but but it's a long form of editorial, all selling LaSalle University, but different hooks they had. And they were beautiful.
All of them had like rock solid headlines, really cool imagery, cool call to action. Like they were just, anyway.
So this is what Heath and I do in our nerd time is we just buy old magazines and ads just to look at them. I think what's funny is I, when I talked to my other copywriting friends and other people in the marketing, people don't also – I'm like, you know Russell is probably one of the nerdiest when it comes to copywriting.
People don't – they think he was a funnel guy, but I'm like, I've seen Russell's collection. I've got more swipe outs than anybody.
He has like some rare stuff that I'm like, holy smokes, you have – just – I couldn't believe some of the things that I've poked around back here, what your collection. And so people forget like you have your own copywriting chops, too.
You just don't want to do it all the time. That's why you have me.
It's like it's like you're you're excellent in your own right. And it's funny because like when I when I got in this business, I was learning all the pieces and copywriting was the one I was like, I don't want to do that.
Like that was the worst. There's also the most expensive.
I remember like the first time I tried to hire a copywriter is Michael Ford and he wanted 15 grand. I was like, what? I'm like that was the worst, but it was also the most expensive.
I remember like the first time I tried to hire a copywriter, um, it was Michael Ford and he wanted 15 grand. I was like, what? I'm like, and that freaked me out.
And then the first time I hired someone was Johan Mock. I paid him eight grand and we never launched a product, but it was like 8,000.
It was like all the money I had. And finally I was like, I can't afford copywriting.
So I have to learn this. I like, I forced me to learn the skillset.
Uh, but it's funny cause for me it's like copy copywriting. It isn't just the words on the page.
It copyrighted everything. Eventually when you get better and better copywriting, like the perfect webinar is just me copywriting.
Like it's literally, it's a sales structure in place that I do off the top of my head, but I know the structure so well, you know, emails are copywriting, like Facebook live, like podcasts, like every time you're speaking, like, cause you get better, you start weaving copywriting into it. Um, and so yeah, like I've become a good copywriter because I had to.
But also it's like now it becomes like second nature where like you're always persuading somebody to do something. Right.
Right now you guys are listening and we're entertaining you. We're also trying to persuade you to listen to the next thing.
And hopefully go check out selling online dot com because you learn how to sell more and whatever the next thing is. Right.
But but like that's why this is such an important skill to master. I think it's one of the tragedies that a lot of people have is now they're leveraging AI for copywriting, which I don't think necessarily bad, but by doing that, they're missing learning the skillset, which is the most, I think of all the skillsets I've learned in the business world, it's the most important, the most, it is the most expensive to hire out because it's the most valuable, but like they may get a good good VSL done on ChatGBT that works, but then they're going to go on a podcast or a Facebook Live or whatever trying to promote the thing.
And they don't have any of the chops of how to do persuasion and copywriting because they had ChatGBT write a version for them. You know what I mean? Absolutely.
I like that you brought that up. There are so many things that you touched on that I want to mention.
I think what we lack in the AI, don't get me wrong, I know a handful of these copywriting guys that I respect and are friends with, and they're doing masterful things with AI for sure.

I don't have interest in that because I also – I think what people – copywriters, if they're just using AI just for the copywriting, you're missing out on their lived-in experience.

It's that lived experience because Cause I think when I think of copywriting, when you talk about persuading, it's getting to know people, it's getting to know their background, getting to know who they are. So you can actually, you're just channeling the desire onto your offer or whatever it is.
And so when you're writing, you're able to tap into your unconscious just by writing, even though you have a structure of what to do for the copywriting, but you also have your own unique lived in experience that you can't, you can't just outsource that to an AI and try to dump your own childhood and everything, your own story into AI for it and conjure up because there's been a lot of times, you know, even with you, we go back and forth and then you have, that's why I always say I need a Russell rant because like when I'm doing a new sales letter, whatever it is that we're doing, I always have you wherever you're at in the world, send me over a Vox. Cause I don't know where your brain is at.
I know that your lived and experience can all of a sudden you had an experience that day that I didn't know about, but because of that experience, then there's that hook, the lead, then destroy all the pieces. Yeah.
And then you like and then that's why i say okay where's your brain at and so you we did we've done this for so many of our products for so many of the offers with dan kennedy and our own products and so sure enough i'll get a rustle around a good three minute rustle around and it helps me tremendously because then i go great and then it also will trigger something i'm like you? That's awesome. That connection, I just now made a connection from what you said to what I just experienced

at the gym or something like that,

that made me realize this can be a really good hook

with this really good angle.

And so I, yeah, I think AI, obviously it's there,

it's here and we're trying to figure out

how to best utilize it that works for us.

But I also don't want it to take away the thing that I love, the thing that I know is Heath. That's what I am.
I'm a writer. This is what I do.
And so for it to outsource it, that's where you still need to be artistically satisfied and fulfilled or just fulfilled in what you're doing rather than – because then it just – how is it fun to just pull levers's what it comes down to with an ai if i just get these cool prompts it's just me pulling a lever just putting in the right prompts for it and it just yeah it just doesn't you're a purist like me i understand yeah but i mean i still utilize it for sure there's been a time where you know how do they i'll ask it questions and help me i'll honestly it's the fastest when it comes to citing sources when i'm just like take this take this and now put it in mla format and give me a site source and things like that or help me with research or also it'll help me with a springboard i'm like just give me 10 ideas based around this just to kind of get my brain moving rather than just to have i don't have it right for me none or no or any of that but it's more of a yeah idea generator for sure that's like i've been i i've never was big ai until just the last man like two weeks i've been playing with a lot and i was like like we were talking about i did generation so like for me i have a million swipe files on a thing like book funnels or webinar funnel or whatever right so what i've been doing um actually i started running a report off to get you a copy of it but um i've linked to like every agora front end i could find like that are like free plus shipping books or things like that right so i was like look at all these book funnels that are gore's publishing and then like tell me like like analyze them come back and tell me like what's the same about them what's different what are you noticing what are the headlines where this you know and then it'll come back and it'll give you all that data where it's like okay they're using one of six different headline structures like oh cool we should split test all six of those you know and oh the all these led with a story about this or you know three were this three but it gives you all the analytics and then at least no it gives at least for me gives me an idea like what i could write or where i should be able to write about things like 100 which makes it more fun 100 because i also like obviously i'm a purist when it comes to the writing i'm bringing it unconscious but i also know what marketing takes and we all love dead data we're always going off data we always want to know we don't want to reinvent the wheel we want to know what's working that's why we funnel hack and that's why you know this if this is work then let's continue to have it work and then we work upon that and make the variations and all the split tests from there. But absolutely.
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Go to selectquote.com slash Spotify pod today today to get started so i want to talk about the first project we did together um because a lot of fun and then we'll probably end the episode so so the very first project he came in on because he was in a bunch of e-com stuff at the time and i had just bought a green drink company called zuma juice um and it was first time we had a chance to work together and so anyway it was it was probably the most fun I've had. Because usually I copy my own or I outsource parts to copywriters.
Anyway, there's been good times and bad times with that. But it was the first time just working with you on a project.
And our styles were very similar, which I love. So the first thing we did, if you remember this, we set up a Trello board.
And the first thing was like, let's go funnel hack every single thing we can find around this.

So we found every green drink product we could find and then went and bought

everyone took screenshots of here.

It's the first page,

second upsell down,

like down every single green drink.

And then we found other e-com products that were similar,

other,

other supplements,

things like that.

We funnel hacked those.

And so we built a Trello board with,

I don't even know,

probably 30,

40 different funnels.

We had funnel hacked,

um,

along with like, uh, emails and ads and things like that. And then we'd bought the brand from somebody else.
Do you remember we bought from Luke Jaden and we got a call with him? And it was fun watching you because the questions you were asking were so interesting because I've only written a copy for myself. I've never done it for other people.
So I always have a lens of I'm just writing to the people I know how to write for where you were coming into a whole different world. And it was fascinating watching you.
I don't know if you remember this, but you interviewed Luke for like an hour on the tone of the brand. Do you remember this? Like how do you talk to all that kind of stuff? And I want to go a little deeper there.
Because number one, first off, step number one, guys, everyone funnel hack. Step number two, we were doing the funnel hacking funnel hacking it's not just in copying us most people do like what he did next it was interesting was like figuring out the voice or not the voice the tone of the brand like how does it communicate how does it do stuff like that um which i never thought of i'd love you to talk about just your thought on that part of oh yeah i'm i'm a big pro i'm a big believer of getting closest to the person who is creating the product, that understands the product, that knows it in and out and has been working with it.

So obviously Luke and then I also did this – I worked closely also with Trey Llewellyn who – friends and e-comm.

So I would get on the – when I would work with Trey, I would also call up his customers.

I would talk to a few customers and why they buy so many of this and actually get to know them, understand why they're buying it for. That's part of the copywriting is the sales.
It's just talking to people. The biggest thing is I just ask questions and then I sit back and listen.
I was just listening to how Luke – and he had so much passion behind it. He loved, he, I mean, he loved this drink that he created.
And so I wanted to know, yeah, how did he approach it? Cause he was, and the tone was a really important thing because that is a, I mean, that's part of the whole branding is how the, how to stand on the marketplace with that specific tone. And so when it comes to the tone and also who you're going for and how that tone is touching that person, because, uh, when it comes to different groups of people, how you talk to them and how you, you're not going to talk to, um, you know, busy moms and say, when you're going to talk to a bunch of masculine, hardcore guys, like there's a different way to approach the, the, the brand.
And so I would just, my biggest thing is I would just ask Luke questions and then he would talk about it. And I go, tell me more about that.
And I would just, and then let him, and then I just listen and I take notes. Cause a big thing is just copy.
I always say, uh, it comes from Kim. I'm gonna ruin her name.
I'm so sorry, Kim, Kim Schwamm. She's an amazing A-list copywriter been around for a long, long time.
And she, I love the phrase she used copy collecting. And I really think that about that.
I don't think it's copywriting. I think it's copy collecting.
So I'm just collecting the things that Luke is telling me. I'm like, Oh, and I just make notes.
And so there was a lot of fun tone. What I got from the greens jeans, the, at the time, the Zuma juice was, it was a lot of fun.
of fun this was a greens juice that was really really fun because at the time it was like hardcore like the greens and you know it's it's for your health and everything was so just organic and everything so based for your health it felt very just um not a fun way approaching it and so Luke wanted to do this like you know the greens drinks that that kicks your butt and it's really he used fun language around it about you know giving you a kick butt energy and he liked the fun part of it so like and that also went to show because in the video he first created yeah was really really fun it had that early harman brothers feel that he really liked and so there obviously – he wanted to approach a bigger market to show that greens drink doesn't have to be an expensive, just really high-priced and – Health food. Health food that is only for a very specific audience that only goes to Whole Foods.
He wanted to make it be like, no, this is actually for everyone and it's good for you. And it's so easy.
He wanted that angle of it like you can put in your greens very easily. So that was – yeah.
My biggest secret is just asking more questions. I just interview the person and I just write down notes and then they kind of write the copy for me, to be honest.

It's funny where Caitlin Poland asked her one day, cause she was, when she ran lady boss,

she was writing all the copying stuff.

And she said, I stopped writing copies.

So I, when I started doing that, I go to my community and Facebook and I asked questions

and I would just listen to what they respond.

I literally use their phrases, like the things they would say to respond to my messages.

Like that was the copy.

Like they said it the way that it sounded to them.

And so I just copied that and set it back. And, um, so in get a chance to write for me sometimes for dan kennedy sometimes for um uh for barnum pt like you're gonna learn a whole bunch of different do you get schizophrenia ever switching from voice to voice it's a little different when i go from you to dan kennedy i cut out all exclamation points all exclamation points and then And then I structure it.
Big blocky blocks. Big blocky blocks.
Cause he, he, he older, older kind of traditional style writing, almost like journal, journal kind of like style, a little different compared to how direct response marketing and copywriting has changed over the years. And so, and with yours, yeah.
And then with Barnum PT, I get to play with voice, of course, and then different ones.

But I got used to that.

Again, that's like the improv background.

And then what I first started with the e-comp company, one day I remember I had to write this whole line of, what was it, baby?

It was like baby products, like different soft.

It was like lotions and different products for like a newborn up to like two years.

And then after that was done, like the next thing was no kidding. There was this brand at the time called Enraged.
It was Enraged Nutrition. And it would have the most aggressive, like, like scary names that you would, I don't think you can let fly today.
Like they're the most aggressive names. So I had to then change the tone and go from like just hardcore, uh, put on a different, it's like putting on a different alter ego, different persona while you're right.
Um, it's so awesome. Yeah.
Yeah. Oh man.
All right. Last question for you.
And we'll wrap the podcast for today. And thank you for doing this.
It's a lot of fun. Yeah.
Um, for someone out there, cause a lot of people in our world are trying to learn this business game and there's so many pieces, right? There's copyright and there's funnel building.

There's traffic.

There's so many different things.

Initially, like the best way to make money at first I think is learning one skill set and then going and doing that as a service for other people.

And I think if someone wants to learn copywriting, it's – obviously there's work to learn it.

But it's also one of the most valuable skills.

Like you pay good copywriters a lot of money.

Like for somebody who's just in that spot where they're not sure what they're

in it,

but they're thinking maybe I should become a copywriter.

What's the path or how does it look to like go and actually start learning

and getting a client?

What's that first beginning part look like?

I would highly recommend,

I,

there's a couple of ways to do it.

I would recommend getting with a company.

It's going to,

you know,

start off just learning,

getting with,

getting an in-house position with an e-com company and then starting off small perhaps just starting with Facebook ads. Just getting with a company that you know you can work hard and they see that you're hungry and they want to get after it.
Because then from there, you're going to be able to learn the skills while also on their time. Be able to – they're helping you.
They're training you while also getting up to speed with what you want to do. I did, you know, I, that's kind of how I got started.
They wanted me up because I had a degree in writing. They knew I could write, I could write a sentence.
I could write, I can be able to write a structure, yeah, a structured argument and everything. And so they were like, okay, great.
Now we can use that. And then this is how we actually do things to make sure it sells.
I would do that. And then also, and then from there, if you want to start making more money and getting your, and building your name, I, I was on Upwork, uh, at the time I never was on Fiverr, but I was on Upwork, man.
And I took every position I could get. And then I started posting in groups and so different groups on Facebook, uh, about services.
And that's how I got connected with a lot of people. That was really surprised.
And also, and when you're doing these posts, being yourself, don't try to be another copywriter of how they structure things. Really understand who you are and your personality.
If you're funny, if you're, you have a certain style about you, use that in your copywriting because that really makes you stand out with your personality and, and, uh, and business owners love that. They want to see that.
So I would say, yeah. And then just, you're going to be putting in some grinding, but if you're enjoying it, then it's, it's fun.
I mean, I, I mean, back in the day, this is crazy. I don't know if I ever told you this when I was like, I was just wanting to get out of a certain position and wanting to make it out on my own.
So when ClickFunnels was first, it was new, it's fairly new. And I remember one of my, the media buyer I was with at the time I was working with this company and I was doing, it was when probiotics was the rage and I wrote this massive VSL and it was, I got to really get nitty gritty and we printed off all the transcripts from all the Gundry VSLs and everything.
And then he was showing me, he's like, look at this new thing. And he showed me ClickFunnels.
He was, he was like, show me a site that he built. And I saw a member of the buttons all wiggling and everything.
I was like, what is all this? And then sure enough, down the line, I eventually was able to work with someone who had a ClickFunnels account and I would log into their account and I would be in my closet. I had a little desk set up in my closet.
I'd be up until 2 in the morning and I would build a funnel just to see how to structure it and drop things in, make a headline. I was like, oh, this is really easy.
And then I would delete it because I didn't want him to find out that I was building funnels in this thing. And I was like, I don't want him to find out.
So I'd build a whole funnel and be like, oh, this is really easy. I could do this.
And then I delete it. So I got really, so I would

just find any opportunity. I mean, I was doing descriptions for yarmulkes on Upwork at one

point. I was taking any job I can get and just to stack up and just to, you know, a lot of times in

the early days, you're just wanting to feel more confident that you can do this, that you can be,

get after it. And you're going to make a lot of mistakes and you're going to get clients that want want to take advantage of you, and you're going to have to figure things out.
And it's rough. But it doesn't – I think if I were to do it again, I would definitely get with an in-house, get with someone in-house where you can know how to – you're good at writing in some sort of capacity, and then they want to – and then you're hungry.
Because a because a lot of times i mean business just wants someone that's hungry that stay with them and really know how they work and then build from there yeah yeah that's cool and if you're an entrepreneur who can't afford a copywriter yet then the process is kind of similar other you're not doing work for other people but you got to write a lot for yourself and i got a spot where i was writing emails every day and i was writing sales that i just kept writing and writing and and for me like i wasn't good at writing so i would do is i would just i'm very much a modeler so i look at like whoever like if i was launching i remember launching my first software product went to arm and more inside and he was launching something similar so i was funnel hacking what did he do okay he had headline right my head he had an intro story i have an intro story he had it and i just like followed structure i started vsl so i mean i would get the vsl transcribed yeah and then i would look at the whole whole thing i try to break out okay the first three lines like this was a hook okay boom there's i need a hook and the next five lines they were leading with a story and you know and i just kind of like started in fact you look at the dot com secrets book um when i wrote that all the scripts i show in there literally came from me funnel hacking a dozen people with that same thing and then looking at similarities amongst all of them and then making my own videos based on that that would work. I'm like, oh, there's the formula.
I reversed engineered the formula from other people doing it. I didn't make it up.
I kept seeing it over and over and over again. And so it's like, okay, I know the things I need to fill in to make a good VSL or to make a good webinar or make a good whatever the thing is you're trying to create.
I did that with email. So when I really cut my teeth in the direct response when I started going out on my own was with email.
So I got really good at email and I was on Ben Settle's list and I bought it. I started buying slowly or got on his list.
And then I've been following him for years and years. So then I would start to get on everyone's list just to get their emails.
And then I'd save them in different folders. So I'd see what they're doing in email wise.
So then I started slowly, you know, buying what you can afford. I then i started buying so i learned a lot for also from ben settle was a lot of the early early stuff i started buying and then really soaking it in and then i was like oh i can do this i can do this and yeah sure enough once you started seeing the pattern that's when yeah yeah the pattern basically the framework the framework you add your art on top of it and your personality and your – anyway.
So Heath, that was fun, man. I appreciate you coming and hanging out in the office this weekend and jumping on the podcast.
Any of you guys who are aspiring copywriters who want to learn copy, you got some great stuff from Heath today. Avataros.
Oh, one last question. Avataros.
If someone wants to run an avatar, do they need to go to Taboola or is there other platforms? Do you even know anything? Oh, yeah. There's a lot.
I mean there's – I mean Taboola and Outbrain, it's been a bit since I've – like the actual inside of it when it comes to this part. But Taboola and Outbrain, you look at – those are the top ones because they're on the best kind of publications.
You're going to get the better quality traffic. And then there's other ones that will run more because also it depends on what you're offering you're running.
So say for, like CBD gummies and stuff, things were a little iffy that maybe were a little bit difficult for different publishers. But I mean there's so many.
So Taboola and Outbrainer, yeah. I mean there's so many people also to follow for when it comes to native.
I say advertorials. I'd almost step back and not do an advertorial if you've got a niche-specific business.
It's more for mass market because you're targeting like new sites where it's all the people not like you know native is definitely takes it from uh it takes a more of a skill there's definitely you're gonna get a lot less clicks the percentages are completely different compared to what you're used on meta and with instagram and facebook so you know to start with facebook and, much, much better because then you can, they, that one, they just like, you just, it's all about creative and you just turn on the switch and they just keep pumping it with creative into the algorithm finds this way when it comes to native. Yeah.
That's your, uh, yeah, different type, but it's absolutely worth it. But also with the advertorials, um, that doesn't mean you just have to go for native.
Advertorials are absolutely being used on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, wherever it is, Google. I see them all the time because it's a great opportunity to bring in those cold traffic, give them information, and then send them on.
And also it helps you too to whittle down what's working. So a lot of times we'll do like split tests, multiple advertorials and then we see okay which one is actually getting the more clicks then drop the other ones and focus on that one and then do split so it's also a way to find what the market is actually really really interested in yeah what they're yeah very cool awesome thank you heath appreciate it hope you guys enjoyed this episode first time talking about copywriting a long long time and hopefully you guys got some ideas some cool ways to get your copy game up.
So appreciate you, and we'll see you guys all on the next episode of The Russell Brunson Show. Hey, this is Russell.
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