S1E4: The You You Are

Speaker 1 Adam. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I want you to close your eyes and imagine you're working in Lumen's HR department.

Speaker 1 Okay, give me a second. It takes me 10 minutes to close my eyes.
Oh, wait. I did it right away.

Speaker 2 Okay, keep them close. If our partner, ZipRecruiter, was helping Lumen hire for various roles, how do you think HR would feel about ZipRecruiter's ability to search resumes quickly via keywords?

Speaker 1 Let me get into character here.

Speaker 1 I think they'd love it. It's efficient.
It's targeted. We can search words like cure lover and affinity for long hallways.

Speaker 2 Okay, you can open your eyes now. Oh, thank you.
So if you were actually a business owner and not an actor who plays a guy who works at a weird company, like you do in the show,

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Speaker 1 You know what? Lumen should make ZipRecruiter a perk. It's way more fun than a finger trap.

Speaker 2 Finger traps are not even fun.

Speaker 1 No, I actually get legitimately claustrophobic when I use a finger trap.

Speaker 2 Yes. I know.
Even the prop ones. Totally.
Because the finger traps are real.

Speaker 1 It freaks me out when I use it.

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That's right.

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Speaker 3 I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott, and this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

Speaker 1 Today, we're recapping season one, episode four, The You Are, written by Carrie Drake and directed by Aoife McCartle.

Speaker 1 Now, you want to talk about how you found Aoife and how you guys took, because the episode really feels like a continuation visually of what you did with the first few episodes, of course, with some kind of different visual twists.

Speaker 1 Aoife's incredible.

Speaker 3 Yeah, she is Irish, and Katie Pruitt, who I've worked with for a long time, who is one of the producers on the show and AD'd and has done a lot on the show, showed me some of her work.

Speaker 3 And she had done a bunch of music videos and commercials and this little independent called Kissing Candace. And I just thought her visual style was...
pretty incredible.

Speaker 3 And, you know, when we were trying to figure out how to make the show, I knew I was going to direct six of the episodes and then the other three, we were going to get one or two other directors.

Speaker 3 And when I saw Aoife's work, I thought, oh, well, she really has this just amazing eye. And tonally, I felt like she, you know, could get what the show was about.

Speaker 3 And we had a really great talk on the phone. And she came over and we decided to have her do the middle three episodes.
So, you know, never met her before this process. And we kind of jumped in.

Speaker 3 And I think she did just really, really really beautiful work, especially the you see where we were shooting everything at the same time kind of in terms of the first three episodes.

Speaker 3 We were, you know, creating this thing on the fly sort of, even though we'd prepped for a long time. We were figuring out what felt right and what didn't feel right.

Speaker 3 And she was jumping in kind of at the same time. So it wasn't like she looked at the first three episodes and started on her episodes.

Speaker 3 We just were sharing all the illustrations and references and talking about movies and images and, you know, kind of all working together.

Speaker 3 Jessica Lee Gagne, our cinematographer, was shooting with her also.

Speaker 3 So it kind of was, you know, like we were all jumping in together, really.

Speaker 1 I do remember season one shooting. We sometimes would switch back and forth between you and Aoife in the same day if we happened to have stuff that needed to be.
shot out.

Speaker 1 You know, we would go back and forth day to day, but also sometimes in the same day.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and that wasn't ideal for anybody, but as the shoot schedule went along

Speaker 3 and time started to sort of like go by and run out, we would try to do that sometimes and try to sort of like

Speaker 3 join forces with our crew and be able to take advantage of shooting at the same location. But that's tough.
I'm sure that was tough for you as an actor to have to jump between episodes sometimes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, I mean, it's challenging, but I thought it was

Speaker 1 certainly, you know, sometimes jumping between any and Audi in the same day and then back again was challenging, but it just kind of forces you into a corner to figure stuff out, just get it done.

Speaker 1 But I loved working with Aoife too. She was really, really inventive.
And there were some shots in this episode that really blew me away, having not seen it in a while.

Speaker 1 Well, let's take a quick break, and then when we come back, we'll jump into episode four.

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Speaker 1 Hey, everyone, I'm Josh Radner, and I am so excited to tell you about How We Made Your Mother, a rewatch podcast looking back at how I met your mother.

Speaker 1 And I am here with Craig Thomas, who co-created the show along with Carter Bays.

Speaker 5 Hi, Craig. Hey, Josh.
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Speaker 1 Okay, so episode four picks up with Helly in the break room, just kind of where we left her in episode three, reading the compunction statement, which is such a luminy title for what

Speaker 1 she's reading. And so Dan.

Speaker 1 It's fantastic.

Speaker 3 There's just so much great Dan stuff in this episode in terms of just lumen verbiage and

Speaker 3 scripture. There's a lot of scripture in this one.
There really is.

Speaker 1 This is the episode, and I forgot it was, where the first big Helly and Mark really butt heads over fundamental lumen principles. And it's really fun to see that kind of burst out into the open.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, so she's reading the compunction statement, and Milchik allows her to take a break for the day, and she goes into the elevator.

Speaker 1 But for the Indian, we get to kind of experience this along with Heli, and it's fascinating to see.

Speaker 1 Breaking for the day means pausing for like two minutes to walk to the elevator, and then the elevator closes, opens right back up, and she's back at work.

Speaker 1 That's what finishing a day at work and starting the next day at work is like for an innie.

Speaker 3 Which always just rattles my mind and makes me tense when I think of that, that for these innies, they're just leaving and coming right back.

Speaker 1 And always be awake. Yeah.
I wonder what that would be like to have the rest physically happening inside your body, but your mind doesn't get a break.

Speaker 3 But also that, doesn't that just make you think about how weird sleep is?

Speaker 1 Yeah, sleep is super weird.

Speaker 3 Whenever it gets time to sleep, for me, I'm always so happy to go to sleep. I don't know why, but it's just like, it's that thing where you're, I guess, because I'm tired.

Speaker 3 But like, what is that that we have that rest and that sort of break from consciousness?

Speaker 1 And then I always look forward to my dreams yeah i had the same feeling last night in fact i was exhausted and so happy to just lie down and

Speaker 1 i i i chose last night to watch friends as i went to sleep and it was so pleasant And I think as I get older, I get more and more excited about sleep and then more excited about talking about how much sleep I got the next day.

Speaker 3 I think that's exactly right. I just proved that I'm old.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think we just, we both just did. I love going to sleep.
Sleep is wonderful.

Speaker 3 People can play this podcast to help them fall asleep.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 1 As they're doing right now.

Speaker 3 Can I tell you something? In the break room, the other thing that I just really connect with are Milchick's headphones.

Speaker 3 Kat Miller, our prop genius person, found these old 70s headphones that I used to have, these Sennheiser yellow foam headphones that just took me back to like 1975. And that's what Milchik wears.

Speaker 1 So, were those literally the ones you had as a kid?

Speaker 3 No, no, no, but the same model and the same thing. That's what I mean.
You know, when you see, and when you see something, yeah,

Speaker 3 and when you see something like that you haven't seen from your childhood, it just like triggers so much stuff. And I was like, yes, those are the ones.
And they look just Trammell looks so cool.

Speaker 1 I was just going to say, he looks so cool with them on.

Speaker 1 I think Trummel just looks cool. You put anything on his face, but he just looks awesome in everything.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he does. And Britt, let's just

Speaker 3 comment on what an incredible performance in that scene.

Speaker 1 For sure.

Speaker 3 This is like we're just seeing the underside of what the reality of being an any is.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, one thing I want to say, too, about how incredible Britt is in this scene and why it's such a painful scene to watch, or one of the many reasons it is, is because as an audience, so far we've experienced Helly as this superhero figure.

Speaker 1 Like she is the kind of voice of reason and justice down here, just in the first few episodes. And we see them break her here.

Speaker 3 It's disconcerting because you see this is someone who is very strong and really rebelling against this. And you're kind of with her on that.

Speaker 3 And then all of a sudden you see, oh, this is something that's going to be very, very hard for her to survive or fight against.

Speaker 3 But it also kind of makes you, I think, in a way, just realize that how serious this whole thing is and the underbelly of, you know, what's going on here. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So after the break room, we're back at MDR, and then Bert just sort of walks in the room. Christopher walk in.

Speaker 1 And we have this hilarious moment of Dylan just grabbing a stapler and like wielding it as a weapon.

Speaker 3 I think we even might have slipped in a little

Speaker 3 gun sound effect there when he opens up the stapler. It's like a really, yeah.

Speaker 3 And just a classic Dylan how in the wet fuck did you get?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I was going to comment on the use of how in the wet fuck, too. It's just so Dylan.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And very Danish.

Speaker 3 And, you know, all of a sudden we got Christopher Walken in MDR there, and he's, you know, trying to connect with the group.

Speaker 3 And, you know, to me, anytime, you know, just, I'm just such a Chris Walken fan.

Speaker 3 just the fact that he's in the show anytime he shows up it just it to me it's just so much fun and uh i think chris really enjoyed the dialogue bert's dialogue you know and his and his turn of phrase and you know i think as an actor that that that kind of thing just from the the little i've worked with him and you know seen his process that you know the words are really what does it for him and how he he kind of sort of like sort of grasps onto those and finds ways to bring them alive that I think turn him on.

Speaker 3 And that's, and that's me speaking for Chris Watkins, you know, his process, but just watching how he works. And he's just, it's just so, as we know, iconic.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Watching the episode, he's just incredible.
He's so present. And getting to work with him and actually watch it happening, you see

Speaker 1 just how brilliant it is. You can feel it just watching the guy.
He is just completely there and relaxed and just in it.

Speaker 1 And like you said, kind of wrapping himself around the words and really owning them. And it's really a unique

Speaker 1 thing. And you see why he is

Speaker 1 who he is. He's just unbelievable.

Speaker 3 And I think he really loved the idea that he was bringing in the handbook totes.

Speaker 1 So he's dropping off literal tote bags that were constructed and made to carry around your lumen handbook. And it's the new handbook tote.

Speaker 1 So I'm assuming that every season or every year, there's a new handbook tote that comes out?

Speaker 3 I guess. It seems like, you know, that's the thing down on the severed floor.
Little, little

Speaker 3 things like that are a big deal. And everybody gets excited for the smallest thing because that's all they have.

Speaker 1 That's it. That is absolutely it.
And Irving is really excited that he gets to see and receive a handbook tote before the official release.

Speaker 3 Yes, exactly. It's definitely good merch.
There's a lot of merch that I feel, you know, I mean, we get into it in this episode too with the finger traps, right? Yeah.

Speaker 3 And that's all the Dylan world of like how he, you know, really accrues merch and prizes. And

Speaker 3 it's, you know, again, something I think is very specific to this office culture, too, and the idea of these little rewards.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they're like trophies almost, yeah, and they're goals, you know, for people to attain.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I have like a bunch of lumen mugs. And do you have, and you must have stuff over the years?

Speaker 1 There's what about merch that you've received from work or around? Is there any merch? Because in entertainment, it seems to be, but I think it's everywhere with any big company. There's always like

Speaker 1 ephemera that's coming in. Is there any merch that's been particularly useful in your life or that you've hung on to for a long time?

Speaker 3 I am, I mean,

Speaker 3 I'm wearing my Nick's hoodie right now, but that's just, I don't know if that's merch or just like, that's swag. No, swag is free stuff that you get.
Yeah. I bought this.
That's merch.

Speaker 3 Merch and swag. That's somebody should name a production company.

Speaker 1 Merch and swag.

Speaker 3 Merch and swag. You know, I think

Speaker 3 Christine was on Search Party, the show Search Party. Great show.
And I, yeah, I got a tote bag from Search Party that I use all the time, even though I wasn't even on it.

Speaker 3 I just benefited from being married to her.

Speaker 1 And for whatever reason, that particular tote bag has just sort of stuck with you.

Speaker 3 Yes, and she'll make fun of me about it all the time. So I see you've got your Search Party tote bag.

Speaker 1 I have,

Speaker 1 which is a great show. Such a good show.
I have

Speaker 1 an Eastbound and Down fleece like half zip that for whatever reason has

Speaker 1 just stuck with me. And it was like 15 years ago, but it's so comfortable and it has the added benefit of saying eastbound and down on it, which is cool.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, very cool. And actually, it's really great to have those things, you know, as the years go by.
You're like, oh my God, that movie, we did that long ago, you know?

Speaker 1 You know, I just have to say that we've now been talking about our own merch that we have in our lives in a pretty excited fashion now for like five minutes.

Speaker 1 And we were just making fun of the people at Lumen for being so excited about their, merch. So

Speaker 3 we're no more evolved. We're in our own version, right? We're all,

Speaker 3 we're in a simulation. Yes.
It's obviously, we think we're so evolved, but

Speaker 3 that's just our version of handbook toast.

Speaker 1 I think you're right. You and your search party tote and me and my eastbound and down fleece half zip couldn't be

Speaker 1 more excited about those things.

Speaker 3 I can just hear Irving saying, How dare you, how dare you judge us?

Speaker 1 Exactly. And he's right.

Speaker 1 Okay, so Helly comes back from the break room and Mark just sort of asks her how many times.

Speaker 1 So you, and looking at Dylan, you get the sense that both of those guys have spent time in the break room and it is tough. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, and she says, what, like 1,072?

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's right. Which is a lot.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, and then you're sort of like, okay. I don't know.
I feel like there's already something going on between Mark and Helly where you kind of know

Speaker 3 she's changed something in you just from the minute she showed up. It's underneath the surface.

Speaker 1 I think so. And I think Mark is trying to push against it and push it away because he,

Speaker 1 you know. Yeah.
Okay. And then we jump to OND and Irving visiting Bert at OND.
He takes Bert up on his directions on how to get to OND and he goes and pays him a visit.

Speaker 3 Yeah. You want to watch that clip?

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Rise up from your deathbed and sally forth

Speaker 1 more

Speaker 1 perfect for the struggle.

Speaker 4 Exactly.

Speaker 1 I can't believe you.

Speaker 1 You have this.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry, wait. What time is it?

Speaker 1 I have to go.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 So they

Speaker 1 briefly touch hands there, and it's so beautiful, but obviously it freaks Irving out this intimacy.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's,

Speaker 3 you know, in a lot of ways, they're in this version of a prison, really, you know, where the smallest thing,

Speaker 3 everything is, you know, under surveillance. There's that aspect to it.
I just think there's so much great chemistry between those two guys.

Speaker 3 And even just hearing them quote the Egan verses, it's it almost sounds like it's just like it's classical. It's just great to watch them do that.
And John and

Speaker 3 Chris, it's never not exciting working with him.

Speaker 3 And so directing wise, and I know, you know, Aoife felt this too, that, you know, you kind of just set up the camera and let them do their thing and, you know, maybe get a little feedback, but it's really like two incredibly accomplished actors who just are connecting.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And

Speaker 1 these guys and their relationship bring so much emotion and tenderness to the show and humanity to the show. It really just is

Speaker 1 so lovely whenever they have a scene together. And also it's really interesting watching these two characters and sort of

Speaker 1 their relationship sort of sprouts from their their shared love of art and

Speaker 1 how they sort of reflect and

Speaker 1 react to the art around the severed floor and the fact that Irving has long admired the art around the severed floor and he gets to actually meet one of the people responsible for the placement and timing of the art.

Speaker 1 And you start realizing like

Speaker 1 the art and all of the details around where it comes from and what it means is so important. And like you were saying before, there's such limited

Speaker 1 stimuli down there that this is like their entertainment. This is movies, TV, art.

Speaker 1 This is everything are these paintings and what they mean and where they came from and how long they hung in a particular spot. It's all the importance of all of this is huge.

Speaker 3 Yes, you exactly right.

Speaker 3 It's the only visual stimuli really that they get outside of these white walls and their computer screens. Yes.

Speaker 3 I also think, you know, what John brings to Irving is this piousness, this incredible belief in, you know, the religion of what it is to work at Lumen.

Speaker 3 And his belief in that as an actor to me is what makes everything so real.

Speaker 3 It just gives it depth. And then, you know, in the next scene where, you know, he's going back to MDR and he passes by this conference room where Milchik left the copy of the UUR.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's, again, a momentous moment.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So momentous that he doesn't even touch it or go into the room. Right.

Speaker 1 Like he has to just go tell Mark.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because he wants to follow protocol, right? Because you're department chief. So he wants to talk to you first before he even talks to Milchik.
And

Speaker 3 it was important to have that book be sort of, you know, a standout down there, even in terms of the color. And that jacket cover shot is just also one of my favorite little images in the show.
Just,

Speaker 3 you know, it's just this kind of ridiculous self-help book. You know, I love self-help books.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So have you always read self-help books? I know that you and Janine Garoflo wrote one back in the day that I had.
That's right.

Speaker 1 That's right. Seal this book is

Speaker 1 book. Right.

Speaker 3 Which was, it was not a bestseller

Speaker 3 well i bought it thank you adam um and the u-r kind of to me there's what's so funny about it is it's kind of almost like real you know what i mean yeah um

Speaker 1 i remember shooting this scene where i'm reading the u-r in the bathroom stall and and i was reading the book and dan Erickson had written a few chapters just so we had them in the book for me to read.

Speaker 1 And I remember I would have trouble keeping it together because the text was deeply funny. I mean, it's really funny.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, it's Dan's specialty.

Speaker 3 He could write the whole book. And I think Ricken's You You Are is available on Apple Books.
Yes.

Speaker 3 There's some version of it.

Speaker 3 And I mean, it's just so weirdly self-important, personal, where he's kind of working out his own own stuff in his life in the guise of a self-help book. Yes.

Speaker 3 And then it's impossible not to hear Michael Chernis's voice reading it because it's just so

Speaker 3 pompous and ridiculous. But the other thing, and this is a part of this episode that gets sort of kicked off, is that for any Mark to read this, it is anything but funny.

Speaker 3 It's literally like changing his world.

Speaker 1 For sure. I mean, your job needs you, not the other way around, is something he reads in this book.
And that, I mean, that is a brand new, world-shattering idea.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
He has never thought of

Speaker 1 this job, which is everything to him.

Speaker 1 being turned around like that. The idea of his employer needing him rather than, that is brand new.

Speaker 1 And that combined with the influence that and ideas that Helly are bringing in to MDR, things really start to snowball a bit for Mark.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and that's something I think is really interesting about the tone of the show is that it is funny.

Speaker 3 We're seeing, you know, we're saying how funny and ridiculous, you know, this sort of silly take on a self-help book is, but we're also giving it the weight for the characters who don't have that sense of humor, who wouldn't know like any Margie's innocence.

Speaker 3 And it actually becomes a huge plot point in the show and really kind of like shifts a lot of things in terms of what goes on from here on in. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 And just, you know, how Irving gets Mark and Dylan to come and look at the book and how they're all staring.

Speaker 3 And Aoife did a great job with that shot of the three of you kind of just staring at the book on the chair.

Speaker 3 And that scene plays out really beautifully in that three-shot where you're kind of going back and forth about, well, what should we do with this thing? And, you know,

Speaker 3 again, how Irving is so by the book and everybody's quoting, you know, what the handbook would say to do in a situation like this.

Speaker 3 Irving says, you know, maybe it's a loyalty test, just like the spicy candy.

Speaker 3 What is the spicy candy? What was that?

Speaker 1 The spicy candy. Jesus.

Speaker 3 Yeah. It's kind of like the bad soap that, you know, that.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, and then Dylan, just like great Dylan dialogue of, you know, no, it's booty. It's booty with your name on it.
That's right. I love that.
That's right. You know,

Speaker 3 it's a big deal to figure out what to do with this thing. And then Dylan is kind of, you know, secretly obsessed with it too.
And, you know, there's that scene where he goes in and

Speaker 3 kind of roots around in your drawer and finds it

Speaker 3 and reads the acrostic poem.

Speaker 1 Yeah, let's listen to that.

Speaker 1 D is for dreaming,

Speaker 1 the start of it all.

Speaker 1 E is for energy,

Speaker 1 breaking down walls.

Speaker 1 S is for stewardship

Speaker 1 of home and of earth.

Speaker 1 T is for terror, which gives us more worth.

Speaker 1 I is for eyes,

Speaker 1 which observe us with love

Speaker 1 until N, meaning newness,

Speaker 1 rains down from above.

Speaker 1 And why?

Speaker 1 That's a question we needn't now ponder.

Speaker 1 For destiny, friends, shall deliver all yonder.

Speaker 4 Yeah, seems like you're getting the hang of stuff here.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's wild. Again, under these crazy conditions, without access to any media, something as ridiculous as an acrostic poem or juvenile

Speaker 1 is profound, truly.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 T is for terror, which gives us more worth.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's crazy. It's like, what does that mean?

Speaker 1 Well, as with any acrostic poem, there are two two or three that just sort of really seem jammed in there and don't make a whole lot of sense

Speaker 3 i is for eyes which observus would love no that would be e yeah i is not for eyes at all and why

Speaker 3 is now the word why which should be w

Speaker 1 and why that's a question we need

Speaker 1 now ponder which means i couldn't think of anything that starts with a why yeah i love the childlike quality of it all.

Speaker 3 And also what it's intercut with in the episode is anything, you know, but that.

Speaker 1 And also, I love Ricken, and I think that Ricken

Speaker 1 means well. And

Speaker 1 he, you know, there's a ceiling for Ricken as to self-awareness. I think he isn't the

Speaker 1 fool that you could judge him as. You know, he is a really

Speaker 1 interesting character yeah yeah god michael's incredible just incredible yeah

Speaker 3 i agree i agree and you know all of these characters on the one hand could seem really kind of silly or childlike so you know or it could seem like just sort of one note but then there is always something else underneath them that's that's grounded yeah

Speaker 1 with that let's take a quick break don't go anywhere we will be back soon to talk about the rest of episode four

Speaker 1 Adam,

Speaker 2 I want you to close your eyes and imagine you're working in Lumen's HR department.

Speaker 1 Okay, give me a second. It takes me 10 minutes to close my eyes.
Oh, wait, I did it right away.

Speaker 2 Okay, keep them close. If our partner, ZipRecruiter, was helping Lumen hire for various roles, how do you think HR would feel about ZipRecruiter's ability to search resumes quickly via keywords?

Speaker 1 Let me get into character here.

Speaker 1 I think they'd love it. It's efficient.
It's targeted. We can search words like cure lover and affinity for long hallways.

Speaker 2 Okay, you can open your eyes now. Oh, thank you.
So if you were actually a business owner and not an actor who plays a guy who works at a weird company, like you do in the show,

Speaker 2 ZipRecruiter has all these tools and features and more. And they're designed to make hiring faster and easier.

Speaker 2 So see for yourself when you try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com/slash severance.

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Speaker 1 You know what? Lumen should make ZipRecruiter a perk. It's way more fun than a finger trap.

Speaker 2 Finger traps are not even fun.

Speaker 1 No, I actually get legitimately claustrophobic when I use a finger trap.

Speaker 2 Yes, I know. Even the prop ones.
Totally. Because the finger traps are real.

Speaker 1 It freaks me out when I use it.

Speaker 2 You know what else is real? What? ZipRecruiter.com is real. So go to it, ziprecuiter.com slash severance right now to try it for free.
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Speaker 1 ZipRecruiter.com slash S-E-V-E-R-A-N-C-E.

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Speaker 1 Okay, we're back and we are back with a fact check. Ben, it turns out that Feel This Book was in fact a bestseller when it came out.
Oh my God, really?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow. Wow.

Speaker 3 And you know what? We must have gamed the system somehow.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 3 Maybe I bought up all the copies or something.

Speaker 1 And I still have that book, actually, another fact check. Really? Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I don't think people knew what to make of it really when they read it. They probably thought, oh, maybe this is, I don't know.

Speaker 3 I, you know, I think we thought we were being funny, but I don't know if we were.

Speaker 1 I think it was funny. I got it.

Speaker 1 I mean, you guys are both looking into the camera in a similar way to Mark Dyer and Rick.

Speaker 1 Just like with black turtlenecks, am I right?

Speaker 3 Black turtlenecks. That's right.

Speaker 3 But that's a whole, we could go into like what we thought was funny back then and

Speaker 3 ridiculous

Speaker 3 talk show appearances and things like that.

Speaker 1 Did you guys go out and promote it like as the black turret?

Speaker 3 Oh, fantastic. I think like when that came out, I might have gone on Conan

Speaker 3 with Janine and we might have just pretended that we were like serious the whole time.

Speaker 3 Or there was one, I think, around that time when we went on Conan and did, like, I said, I was doing a stomp, like a revival of a stomp show, you know, which was like the, but it was like with garbage or something and did a whole dance number.

Speaker 3 It's really, it was so much energy being expended. That's great.

Speaker 1 That's great. Another time.

Speaker 1 I'm sure I watched it and thought it was hilarious.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're back in MDR, and Helly finds the map that Mark had found in the group photo, finds it in Mark's desk while he's in the kitchen, and she and Dylan are looking at it, and it just sort of causes an immediate problem.

Speaker 1 But at the same time, Mark has been looking at this sneaking looks at this map. So there is something in him that is curious about this.
And he just read the book.

Speaker 1 And so he's been kind of thinking about it too. But he doesn't want them to think that.
And he's fighting against it himself.

Speaker 1 And so there's this moment where Helly says the work is bullshit. And that offends Mark.
And he says, the work is,

Speaker 1 what is it?

Speaker 3 Mysterious and important.

Speaker 3 Mysterious. And it's very, you say it in a very, very, you know, like kind of self-important way.
It's like, hey, hey, hey, the work is mysterious and important.

Speaker 3 Okay. Don't forget it.

Speaker 1 So I'm assuming, or I assumed reading that

Speaker 1 dialogue that that was

Speaker 1 an important

Speaker 1 say, that's something we say to each other. That's something that we feel about the work we're doing.

Speaker 3 I think so. I think it's probably in the handbook.
Yes. It feels to me like that's, you know, it might even be,

Speaker 3 you know, what is the answer when the question is, what are we doing here?

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 3 Because, you know, no one's really being told what they're actually doing.

Speaker 1 Yeah. What are we doing with these numbers? What are we doing

Speaker 1 with all of it?

Speaker 3 The deflection is the work is mysterious and important, and that's what you need to know.

Speaker 1 So the result of this fight is Mark takes the map and puts it into the paper shredder.

Speaker 1 And in that little cabinet where he got the paper shredder, there is a paper cutter that Helly spots. And she grabs that paper cutter.

Speaker 1 And in a continuation of this whole thing that's kind of been going throughout the series where we're using sort of office ephemera as weaponry, she grabs a paper cutter, storms into

Speaker 1 Kobell's office and threatens to cut off her four fingers if she doesn't get a video camera to make a message for her Audi.

Speaker 3 Yeah, which is, you know, the only thing that an innie can probably do to, you know, somehow get some leverage is to threaten physical harm to the body that they share with the Audi.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And it's smart. It's smart.
And she goes right in there and confronts Kobell. And Kobel is, you know, definitely gets it.
You can see she's, you know,

Speaker 3 and,

Speaker 3 you know, I think this is also, you know, the Kobell

Speaker 3 in this episode episode is she's very much this sort of stern administrator. And

Speaker 3 also, you know, we get to see a little bit more of how far she'll go and she'll let Helly kind of have her rope a little bit. But ultimately, you know, she's going to get

Speaker 3 what she needs to get. And she's, you know, she's not going to get her way.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And just from the ultra specificity of Patricia's work, I get the feeling that usually by this point, people are kind of brought to heal.

Speaker 1 And Heli is pushing it a bit further than anyone has, and it's starting to wear on her patience. But she's going to cut her fingers off.
I mean, what's she going to do?

Speaker 1 She's got to get the video camera and get this done.

Speaker 3 Exactly. And she, she knows that that'll be, you know, what's going to happen the next step.
She's already thinking kind of three steps ahead.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 3 And she gets to record her little video message. And

Speaker 3 then she, you know, they all kind of walk her to the elevator with the video message on her little mini disc. Yep.
And what does she say?

Speaker 3 I guess it's the part where I should tell you all to go to hell, but you're already there.

Speaker 1 Yeah. What a gray line.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's great. It's kind of like, and doesn't she say also like, oh, and I was never sorry.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she says that to Milchik.

Speaker 1 I mean, I guess she's saying it to everyone, but.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's like the break room. I don't care.
I said it 1,072 times, but I wasn't sorry. Doors close.
We're in her POV.

Speaker 3 And Aoife did this in a really smart way where, you know, from her POV, she looks down and

Speaker 3 all of a sudden she's got a different mini disc in her hand. Yeah.
And the doors open and there you all are.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 In different clothes, slightly different clothes.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And in my mind, always kind of looking like the Adams family or something.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's free.

Speaker 3 This group is like, you're back. Here we are.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So she arrives with this different mini disc, and everyone gathers in MDR to watch the video that the Audi made for her Innie. So shall we take a listen to what Helie's Audi has to say here?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 7 But but now Miss Cobel says you threatened to cut off your fingers.

Speaker 7 I understand that you're unhappy with the life that you've been given.

Speaker 7 But you know what? Eventually, we all have to accept reality.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 7 here it is.

Speaker 7 I am a person.

Speaker 7 You are not.

Speaker 7 I make the decisions.

Speaker 7 You do not.

Speaker 7 And if you ever do anything to my fingers, know that I will keep you alive long enough to horribly regret that.

Speaker 7 Your resignation request is denied.

Speaker 7 Turn it off.

Speaker 7 Wow.

Speaker 1 It's rare to have it sort of distilled down to such frank language. I am a person, you are not.
That is what they really think of us down here.

Speaker 1 And that is so harsh.

Speaker 3 No, it's the reality. You know, it's sort of like also in the beginning of the episode when you see what's going on in the break room.
This is the episode where you get to really understand

Speaker 3 how

Speaker 3 bleak this is for this reality for these innies. And yeah, she is really making it clear that she and probably,

Speaker 3 you know, what is the world outside? You know, what, how does the culture look at innies?

Speaker 3 And this is something we kind of hint at earlier in the season too, just sort of the debate as to what, you know, what are the rights of an innie? You know, how much of a person are they?

Speaker 1 And I think for Mark and for everyone there in MDR,

Speaker 1 They

Speaker 1 already know this. They already, to a certain extent, assume or know this about how they're viewed in the outside world.

Speaker 1 And for Mark, I think helly pushing and pushing and pushing is destructive and it's frustrating because this is all we're going to get. If you keep pushing, the best we can hope for is this.

Speaker 1 And now you've brought this all out to the surface again, and it's going to depress and discourage everyone in the office.

Speaker 1 And it's going to take us another week or so to kind of get everyone back into the spirit of Lumen and MD.

Speaker 1 You know, it's just a reminder of something you'd, as a boss, you'd rather not have everyone subject to.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you want to keep your head in the sand a little more.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 That's Mark at this point. And I like what you did

Speaker 3 right after that at the end, where you see how you're reacting to it, because you can see that you're feeling that, but you're also feeling,

Speaker 3 I think you're just, again, being affected by the questions she's asking and feeling a little bit of empathy for her or more than a little empathy, but also kind of just,

Speaker 3 it's something's not ringing true to you or feeling the same. At least that's what I get from what you're doing there, is that Mark's starting to just feel a little different about all this.

Speaker 1 That's right. And again, the Ricken book has, and the map,

Speaker 3 this is the beginning of the kind of everything cracking here for for mark yeah and it was fun i think for um for us when we were shooting that to see what audi heli was like you know just to get like for for britt to play around with that super interesting yeah and just get a different you know just it's a different character really different feeling very condescending talking to her innie like she's a child yeah yeah

Speaker 3 That's just one of the sort of things about this world and this show is that there's an opportunity to

Speaker 3 explore these different kind of dualities in what is supposedly the same person. It is the same person, but very different.
And I just think that's an interesting idea.

Speaker 3 These are not different characters. I just said it was a different character, but really it's the same character.
It's just different aspects to this person's personality.

Speaker 1 Yeah, different part of them.

Speaker 1 All right. So let's talk about Petey's funeral.
This is super interesting. It's,

Speaker 1 you know, Mark, Audi Mark is at the funeral.

Speaker 1 Why do you think he has decided to go to this thing?

Speaker 3 Well, I think Mark is curious because, you know, after what happened with Petey, and he basically saw Petey kind of die in front of him.

Speaker 3 And, you know, Audi Mark at this point is,

Speaker 3 you know, there's this phone that's in his basement that's buzzing. And

Speaker 3 he's starting to get curious.

Speaker 3 And obviously to have somebody come into his life and then die mysteriously like that.

Speaker 3 And also after everything he was saying to him, I think he's, you know, he's really, it's interesting that the kind of the dual trajectory of Innie and Audi Mark.

Speaker 3 Innie Mark is starting to get awakened to something. Audi Mark is starting to get awakened to something.
And so he's curious and he goes to the funeral.

Speaker 1 I think there's some guilt in there too, maybe?

Speaker 3 I think so. I mean, just off of that ending, you know, of episode three when Mark goes back and kind of hides the phone and gets all freaked out.

Speaker 3 And, you know, he didn't really do anything, but he didn't really help him

Speaker 3 maybe enough. Yeah.
And he's trying to figure out what to do. And he meets Petey's daughter there and his ex.

Speaker 1 And we see this video that's really effective

Speaker 1 where Petey and his daughter

Speaker 1 played by the great Cassidy Layton, by the way. She's so good.
Yeah. Just excellent.
And his ex-wife, Nina, played by Joanne kelly who is also just excellent um

Speaker 1 but this video that they show at the memorial service of petey and his daughter uh playing guitars and singing enter sandman what the metallica song what made you kind of zero in on that song i mean i think we were looking for a song that we knew would be the soundtrack to cobe

Speaker 3 showing up and by the way patricia's just amazing in this sequence or selvig uh she shows up to get that chip out of Petey's head.

Speaker 3 And we thought, what could be a fun, kind of spooky, cool song to have that sequence play out to? And, you know, who doesn't like Enter Sandman? It's one of my favorite songs.

Speaker 1 I'd love to see it. It really works.
It really works so well.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's great. And, you know, they did a great job of playing it together and singing it and Yule playing on the guitar.

Speaker 3 And it was fun to, you know, see how that sequence came together and and the way Aoife shot it with

Speaker 3 seeing through that the hole, the drill hole in his head. Such a cool shot.
Yeah, honestly, this was a moment when we were making the show. I was like, oh man,

Speaker 3 I hope people go along with this because it feels right to me, but Kobel's going to drill a hole in a dead man's head at his funeral.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 3 And this is like, like, we're saying something about, you know, who this character is and also also the tone of the show.

Speaker 3 And then when you say

Speaker 3 right, it's a lot. But when you think about it with the break room and the mean message from Helly's Audi and just like there's a, it's a very dark episode.
And,

Speaker 3 you know, we, we committed to it. And I think it really defines Cobel in terms of her commitment to this company and to also just getting things done that she wants to get done.

Speaker 3 She will do what she needs to do. And she does it on her own, really.
She's not really telling anybody about it.

Speaker 1 That's right. It turns out that this wasn't asked of her.
She went and did this kind of rogue.

Speaker 1 One other thing that's great about Enter Sandman is that this version of Enter Sandman is like a happy, kind of giggly version with this father and daughter kind of having this great time.

Speaker 1 And that cut with the gruesomeness of Patricia drilling into Ewell's head is

Speaker 1 really,

Speaker 1 really effective. And I seem to remember Ewell was there, but there was also a dummy of Yule there.
Am I right about that? Or was it just Yule?

Speaker 3 It was Yule, and we had a head and like a Yule head. And I have to say the sound on that scene, there's two sounds.
One, the drill sound, which is just so ominous.

Speaker 3 And then the creaking, just little detail, the creaking of the opening of the casket. Yes.
I find so creepy.

Speaker 3 Yes. And that's just a place where our sound mixers really and designers really, you know, just those little things that just make it that much more palpable.

Speaker 1 Makes a huge difference when that stuff is dialed in that well.

Speaker 3 And Patricia is so funny also at the casket when she comes up and you see she tries to talk to June and says, I know. So he was your, she says, he was my father.

Speaker 3 And she goes, so I guess you were close then.

Speaker 1 So weird. She's so weird.

Speaker 3 So weird, Ms. Selvig.

Speaker 1 Okay, so we are back in Lumen now. And...

Speaker 3 Oh, you know, there's the scene after that, the scene where Miss Casey

Speaker 3 is told by Cobel to have a wellness session with Mark.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 3 And what I love about that is that she's wanting to test Mark, it seems, in some way, because we see the candle that she got out of his basement

Speaker 3 in episode three.

Speaker 3 Right. And there's that candle, and the candle's burning in the room.
And she asks him to sculpt a little ball of clay.

Speaker 3 And, you know, in this episode, we didn't talk about this, but Mark has that moment after the funeral where he drives out to the spot where Gemma's car crashed. And

Speaker 3 you have this incredibly emotional moment, you know, really the most emotional moment since the first episode. where you're there at the site where, you know, where she died.

Speaker 3 And then in the room with miss and you just needless to say adam you did an amazing job with that scene and i think it's also beautifully shot by jessica and aoifa for sure it's so evocative and so simple and so stark

Speaker 3 and then you're asked to sculpt this ball of clay by ms casey

Speaker 3 and you kind of sculpt it into that tree yeah the shape of that tree which is you know this little okay now we're starting to see the permeation of the any and the Audi a little bit.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it kind of broke through a little bit there. Yeah.
Yeah. And the candle she got from the basement, she took it from the box that said.

Speaker 3 Gemma's crafts, right?

Speaker 1 Gemma's crafts, that's right. So

Speaker 1 who knows if that had anything to do with that breaking through, but she wanted to see if it would have any effect on her.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and yeah, so at this point,

Speaker 3 we don't quite know what's going on with all of this in terms of what Cobel is up to and what Ms. Casey knows or doesn't know, or it's all kind of like, I think, starting to percolate.

Speaker 1 And that scene is intercut with

Speaker 1 Dylan finding Rickens' book in Mark's desk and starting to explore that and read from it the acrostic poem. And then also Helly.

Speaker 1 gathering up a couple of items, an extension cord and a trash can, and walking to the elevator and preparing to hang herself in the elevator, which is really horrifying to watch that process.

Speaker 3 Really disturbing. And again, just, you know, the more we talk about this, I just realized how dark this episode is,

Speaker 1 how

Speaker 3 unsettling it is, and what it's dealing with, these themes of, you know, just Heli wants out of there enough that she's ready to end it.

Speaker 3 And yeah, the way that that sequence was shot shot by Aoife and Jessica and the way that

Speaker 3 Erika Friedmarker and Jeff Richman edited it with Aoife, I think is just very

Speaker 3 elegant in that

Speaker 3 you intercut her doing all these things

Speaker 3 with the poem, but then also the last moment is kind of you checking in with Helen and her saying, oh, I'm fine.

Speaker 3 And then we cut to, you know, the trash can being kicked out. And that's very, I feel very impactful for on a lot of levels in terms of

Speaker 3 what people deal with and what they keep to themselves and those themes that are

Speaker 3 much, much more than even what the show is about in terms of someone who's in that state.

Speaker 1 And also it shows that Helie will not stop.

Speaker 1 She believes that this place is bullshit and she is being treated treated inhumanely. We're all being treated inhumanely, and she will not stop.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And she's tried everything. She's tried everything to get out of there.
And this is, you know, this is her last resort.

Speaker 1 Well, also, in the midst of all this, Irving is wandering the severed floor, sort of just lovesick, wandering the halls.

Speaker 1 And he comes upon, he goes into OND to maybe try and find Bert, and he opens a door and he comes upon this sort of massive white room filled with people in lab coats working on something

Speaker 1 he does not know what, and neither do we.

Speaker 3 I don't think it's taking swear words out of movies.

Speaker 1 It could be, though. I mean, that's a pretty good theory.

Speaker 1 But that is a huge moment, you know.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. It's a question of what is really going on back there.

Speaker 1 Okay, well, that's it for episode four of the Severance Podcast with Adam and best-selling author Ben.

Speaker 1 The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

Speaker 3 If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice.

Speaker 3 Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and Leah Rhys-Dennis. The show is produced by Xandra Ellen and Naomi Scott.

Speaker 3 This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We have additional engineering from Javi Crucis and Davey Sumner.

Speaker 1 Show clips are courtesy of fifth season. Music by Theodore Shapiro.

Speaker 1 Special thanks to the team at Odyssey: Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff.

Speaker 3 And the team at Red Hour: John Lescher, Carolina Pesikov, Gian Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderutin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Ager.

Speaker 1 And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management.

Speaker 3 We also had additional production help from Gabrielle Lewis, Ben Goldberg, Stephen Key, Kristen Torres, Emmanuel Hapsis, Marialexa Kavanaugh, and Melissa Slaughter.

Speaker 1 I'm Adam Scott.

Speaker 3 I'm Ben Stiller. And next up is episode five, The Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design.

Speaker 1 And you can, of course, stream all episodes of season one on Apple TV Plus right now.

Speaker 3 And season two premieres on January 17th.

Speaker 1 And we're releasing these podcast episodes daily until then.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and now I'm going to go to sleep. I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, I can't wait.

Speaker 3 By the way, did you ever read the sleep book by Dr. Seuss?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 4 Well, maybe when I was little.

Speaker 1 Is it that or is it more of a grown-up thing?

Speaker 3 No, it's definitely a children's book, but I loved it so much because it was all about how different people were going to sleep, different creatures. Interesting.
I was obsessed with that book.

Speaker 3 Anyway, that's another thing that I love about sleeping is the sleep book.

Speaker 1 I really loved that Maurice Sendak book about the kid who makes the cookies and he's like in a cookie airplane and all his clothes melt off and he falls into the milk and stuff.

Speaker 1 I forget what that one was called.

Speaker 3 Did you?

Speaker 3 It was called In the Night Kitchen. Oh, I loved that.
And Mickey was flying his little cookie airplane into the milk, and then he jumps into the milk, and he's naked in the milk.

Speaker 3 And at the end, it's like, that's why we have cake in the morning. And the three cooks look like

Speaker 2 Oliver Hardy from

Speaker 3 Laurel and Hardy.

Speaker 1 Yes, they do.

Speaker 3 It's so great. And it's like all of the food in the cabinet is like the nightscape of a city.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Loved it. Loved it.
I just loved that book so much.

Speaker 4 Anyway,

Speaker 1 I'm going to go to sleep too. All right.
Good night, Ben. Good night.
Bye.

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