5: The Rogue Era

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Speaker 12 Novel

Speaker 17 Phoenix Jones was arrested by Seattle PD on suspicion of assault.

Speaker 12 Four people got pepper sprayed.

Speaker 5 The pepper spray turned the scene into total chaos.

Speaker 5 When we last left our hero Phoenix Jones, he'd just been arrested for pepper spraying a bunch of people outside a bar.

Speaker 5 That night on October 9th, 2011, he was booked into the county jail and then bailed out.

Speaker 5 He says that when he showed up to court a few days later, his old nemesis, Seattle attorney Pete Holmes, was there waiting for him.

Speaker 11 He's trying to convince me not to fight crime. Like, if you don't stop fighting crime, you got to tell me your identity.
I'm like, you can't threaten me with something. Like, I will not be threatened.

Speaker 11 You have nothing to threaten me with. Like, it's ridiculous for you to think you're going to threaten me.
Ridiculous. The concept's offensive.
You threatening me. Ridiculous.

Speaker 11 Like, oh, you're going to tell everybody my identity? You already did, jerk off. I'm in court.
You think we can keep all these court documents sealed? I'm aware the clock's ticking.

Speaker 11 That's why you did it. You did it to expose me and to make fun of me because you thought that people would think I was a clown.

Speaker 5 It was at this moment that that Phoenix decided he would turn the tables on his nemesis.

Speaker 11 That was one of those moments where I was like, everything sucks, but if it's gonna suck, it's gonna suck my way.

Speaker 5 He looked to Iron Man for inspiration, specifically the scene where the inventor Tony Stark reveals his identity at a press conference. And now Mr.

Speaker 11 Stark has prepared a statement.

Speaker 5 Phoenix watched that clip over and over again.

Speaker 11 Like five or six times in a row.

Speaker 5 Truth is,

Speaker 11 I am Iron Man.

Speaker 11 And it was like, I'm going to do my version of that.

Speaker 5 Phoenix set up a press conference outside the courthouse on October 13th, 2011.

Speaker 5 Wearing his black and gold superhero costume, flanked by people in business suits, he turns to the reporters and speaks.

Speaker 21 I'm Phoenix Jones.

Speaker 22 I'm Elsa Ben Fodor. I'm just like everyone else.
The only difference is that I decided to make a difference and stop crime in my neighborhood in my area.

Speaker 5 The reveal didn't quite have that Hollywood polish, but it was an impressive thing to witness.

Speaker 5 Phoenix had made it clear to Pete Holmes and the rest of the Seattle Police Department, the whole world really, that he would not back down from his mission to fight crime.

Speaker 5 As Phoenix saw it, he called their bluff, and they folded.

Speaker 11 Life only gives you a certain amount of moments, right? And I think sometimes people are conflicted by how they feel, their emotions, right? Whereas I'm not.

Speaker 11 So it really has a chance to look at them as, how can I add to my legacy at this moment?

Speaker 5 Phoenix concluded his press conference with an announcement. The city attorney could take his request that Phoenix stop fighting crime and shove it.

Speaker 5 I'm paraphrasing. What he actually said was that he was heading back out on patrol that weekend.
But the point still stands. Phoenix Jones would not be deterred.

Speaker 5 I'm David Weinberg, and from the teams at Novel and iHeartRadio, this is the superhero complex, episode 5, the rogue era.

Speaker 5 When Phoenix Jones revealed his identity outside the Seattle courthouse, it was a moment of triumph.

Speaker 5 Shortly after, Pete Holmes' office announced that they were dropping the charges for the pepper spray incident.

Speaker 11 I think that just went perfectly. Other than having to reveal my identity, it really went perfectly because I think that legitimized me as a superhero in a weird way.
Why? How?

Speaker 11 Well, because when I revealed my secret identity, every news article said, hey, superhero reveals secret identity. You have to be a superhero to have a secret identity.

Speaker 11 And I revealed it because the cops were coming after me for stopping crime.

Speaker 5 Phoenix said that in a way, revealing his identity actually helped him. Because before now, nobody had been able to check whether he had bona fide superhero credentials.

Speaker 11 People thought I was a guy running around in spandex trying to fight crime who was kind of a clown.

Speaker 11 But when you expose who I am behind it, you find out that I'm a four-time regional champion martial artist, a black belt in Taekwondo, have over 350 crime stops.

Speaker 11 Now they can look up because they know my actual name. And then they see all these legal police stops where my name is mentioned in crime reports, including an attempted murder stop, right?

Speaker 11 And all of a sudden, you're like, oh, that guy's not a clown. So in a weird way, it legitimized me further than I ever could.

Speaker 5 If Seattle's law enforcement were out to get Phoenix by charging him for a crime, they had failed. If anything, the arrest made Phoenix more confident and more defiant.

Speaker 5 Shortly after he revealed his true identity, he made an appearance on Fox News on Megan Kelly's show.

Speaker 24 Phoenix, is it true that at the end of the court hearing yesterday, you tore off your dress shirt to reveal reveal your signature black and green superhero costume?

Speaker 25 It's black and gold. Yeah, I was wearing my super suit because this wasn't about the guy under the mask.
They were charging Phoenix Jones because I'm Phoenix Jones.

Speaker 25 If I was a regular person and I had just regularly pepper sprayed someone who was in a fight, they would have shook my hand and sent me away. So I wore the suit because that's what this was about.

Speaker 25 And I took my mask off because the person suffering for it is the person under the mask.

Speaker 5 Phoenix may have won his first major battle with the police, but it was really just the start of the war.

Speaker 5 When Phoenix was arrested, the Seattle police confiscated his beloved super suit and they refused to give it back. Phoenix complained about it on the local Seattle radio program The Bob River Show.

Speaker 21 Why did they confiscate your suit? There's two answers. There's the politically correct answer and then the truth.
So the politically correct answer is.

Speaker 5 Phoenix says that the police claimed his suit was evidence and they needed it to identify him. He says that doesn't make any sense because he'd already identified himself publicly.

Speaker 5 He ends up complaining to the host about the fact that he's having to use use a substandard replacement suit.

Speaker 21 A bulletproof vest, stab plating.

Speaker 21 This one is not so expensive. The other one that the police confiscated, as quotations, evidence, evidence, was like $7,777.

Speaker 12 Holy moly. What are they doing with that?

Speaker 21 That makes me mad. They're probably wearing it and taking photos.
Do you call every day and ask about the suit? Are you getting the suit? I call several times. Seven times a day.

Speaker 21 Hi, it's me, Phoenix Jones. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Phoenix.
The thing that's weird is that no one is assigned to my suit, so there's not an officer I can call directly.

Speaker 5 In the moments right after Phoenix revealed his identity in his dramatic press conference, it felt like he'd won a massive victory over the system.

Speaker 5 But the reality was that Phoenix had just opened up a huge can of worms. And the repercussions of his decision to out himself were about to hit with disastrous consequences.

Speaker 11 What was hard for me is when my identity came out, I was working with Autistic Children. So they yanked my state license and a bunch of other stuff and said I was crazy.

Speaker 5 When Ben Fodor wasn't putting on a superhero costume and chasing down criminals as Phoenix Jones or training at the gym or competing as an MMA fighter, he was at his day job caring for kids with autism.

Speaker 5 He went to their homes or to state-run facilities and he took them out shopping and helped them learn other life skills they would need to navigate the world as adults.

Speaker 11 Both my parents own a foster home that works with autistic children. for a living.
When I turned 18, the first job I ever had was working with autistic children.

Speaker 11 I worked with autistic children until I was 25 and I got like a bunch of different awards for like, you know, teacher of the years and all kinds of different stuff for working with autistic kids and helping them cope with their general life skills.

Speaker 11 I found him incredibly easy to like understand and like incredibly easy to help. So being somewhat on that spectrum would make that easier, I guess.

Speaker 5 Obviously, any person who becomes a real-life superhero probably thinks outside of societal norms.

Speaker 5 But there were also these small moments I had with Phoenix that revealed something deeper about how he sees the world, about his thought processes.

Speaker 5 For example, one night I was driving with Phoenix when he got a text from his girlfriend Dre.

Speaker 5 He pulled over to respond, and then he explained this bizarre system he created for talking to friends over text messages.

Speaker 11 I don't always understand how to explain things to other people.

Speaker 11 What you value as a way to show that I like you is not ever going to be something that I value.

Speaker 11 So I came up with this system with my friends where when I think about them, I'll send a number. Like if it's like, so 313 is like a sandwich.

Speaker 11 Any number has a sandwich or run like 123, like one in the morning, 123 in the morning. Sandwich, really? Like two numbers on the ends and one number in the middle.

Speaker 11 When I'm thinking of my friends, I'll send them a random, like a random set of numbers. You know what I mean? Because math always makes sense.
347, right? 3 plus 4 equals 7.

Speaker 11 So I'll send them like 3 plus 4 and then an equal sign 7.

Speaker 11 So we all send each other numbers back and forth.

Speaker 11 It's kind of like saying I'm thinking about you at a specific time or I waited till that time because you're an important person to me and math makes sense to me.

Speaker 5 I didn't quite understand Ben's system. It just sounds a little like autistic to me.

Speaker 11 Yeah, well. Like a little like on the spectrum.

Speaker 11 People have said that about me before.

Speaker 11 You know, it's hard to explain. I don't know.
I feel like autism is a negative thing. Like people are always saying something negative about being autistic in my mind.

Speaker 11 And if I am Autistic, then I guess I'm one of the most successful Autistic people that there is. Like I win at every game I play.
So whatever label label people want to put on that, they can.

Speaker 11 I don't give a fuck, I guess.

Speaker 5 After Phoenix was arrested, the Department of Social and Health Services notified his employer, who barred him from working with any of the children in their care.

Speaker 5 Phoenix was told to leave immediately. He says he had to walk out of his job in the middle of the day.

Speaker 5 The department spokesperson said they were just trying to err on the side of caution and that he could have his job back if he wasn't convicted.

Speaker 5 But after the charges were dropped, Phoenix says he still had to prove that he wasn't mentally ill before they'd consider letting him go back to work.

Speaker 5 One test he says he was given was supposed to determine whether or not he was autistic. At the end of the test, Phoenix got a score, a number that determined where on the autism spectrum someone is.

Speaker 5 Phoenix says he scored a 57 out of 100.

Speaker 11 Anything above 50 could be autistic. Anything above 65 is autistic.
So what the fuck does that mean?

Speaker 5 The part of the test that really tripped Phoenix up was the facial recognition questions.

Speaker 11 There's a part where they play like a video of these faces and people make weird faces, right? And they're supposed to say what emotion the person's feeling. I had no fucking clue.

Speaker 11 Like it was just like random faces. It didn't make any sense.
No one could have done it. It was crazy.
So afterwards, I was like, this is insane. So I told my doctor about it.

Speaker 11 He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, the facial recognition recognition test or whatever, right? So they were like, well, we'll give it to you again. So I did it again.
I scored the exact same thing, right?

Speaker 11 Then he was like, watch your son do it because my son was with me, right? Then my son did it. And he just straight up was like sad, happy, confused, angry, and nailed all of them.

Speaker 11 So I was like this weird moment where I'm like, okay, there's something happening here that I'm not seeing clearly.

Speaker 5 Phoenix told me that the autism assessment. was just one of several psychological tests he was given.

Speaker 11 So it took me like three years of like proving I'm not a crazy person.

Speaker 5 What was that three-year process of trying to prove that you weren't crazy? What did that look like?

Speaker 11 Well like first I had to go to a stupid hearing.

Speaker 11 Then after the hearing I had to submit a piece of paper and then they wanted me to do a mental evaluation and then they did IEP meetings which are like between like the kids that you work with and the parents and the final process was something called a judgment review, which is like where they just ask you a bunch of questions basically.

Speaker 11 But I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't hard because I'm not crazy.

Speaker 5 Eventually, Phoenix says he did everything he needed to pass the psychological tests. But in the meantime, he was still out of a job and a super suit.

Speaker 5 But Phoenix was determined to continue protecting the citizens of Seattle. So he put on his budget backup suit and hit the streets looking for action.

Speaker 5 For Phoenix, the only thing that mattered was the work, protecting those in danger and helping those in need, even if everything else in his life was a total mess.

Speaker 11 I'm deficient in these areas over here, but none of them have to do with crime fighting. That is the one place I am fucking flawless.

Speaker 5 Now, here is one issue that Phoenix and I will never agree on. I wholly reject the idea that Phoenix is perfect at crime fighting.

Speaker 5 I mean, this is a guy who almost drowned in a puddle because he got caught in his own net and then got robbed by the criminal he was chasing.

Speaker 5 Also, every time I hung out with Phoenix, we had to use my rental car to get around because his car had either been towed or broken into by thieves who he was never able to apprehend.

Speaker 5 So, yeah, I think we have different ideas about what what crime-fighting perfection looks like. But Phoenix was adamant that he had achieved it.
There's no crime he can't stop, nobody he can't save.

Speaker 5 But there was one tragic incident in 2012 that Phoenix admittedly failed to prevent.

Speaker 5 It was a night that changed everything.

Speaker 5 That's coming up.

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Speaker 5 On April 22nd, 2012, a young businessman named Dennis was in Seattle for a work trip.

Speaker 20 I brought my wife and one of my kids up there to spend the weekend. They did some shopping and cruising around while I did all my work.

Speaker 5 After he wrapped up the day's business, he went to see the Super Cross at the football stadium with a friend.

Speaker 5 They were grabbing some food and heading back to the hotel where Dennis's wife was waiting for him.

Speaker 20 It was two o'clock in the morning on a Saturday night, so bars were closing and it was busy down there, so there was a ton of people.

Speaker 5 They walked from the stadium to Pioneer Square, where the streets were filled with tourists and folks from the surrounding suburbs who came into the area for the bars and clubs.

Speaker 5 There was also a large community of homeless people and drug dealers who catered to them.

Speaker 5 Which was why Phoenix was a few streets away on patrol with Ghost, Midnight Jack, Captain Karma, and a few other members of the Rain City superheroes.

Speaker 31 How you doing, boss?

Speaker 5 So far, it had been just like any other night on patrol. They'd looked for bar fights or drunk people in need of assistance.
And as usual, Phoenix had snapped some photos with late-night revelers.

Speaker 11 Yeah, well, that's what we're photos. How you doing?

Speaker 12 Come on, you gotta hurry. We're leaving.

Speaker 32 One, two, three.

Speaker 12 There we go. Have a good night.

Speaker 5 By the time Dennis was setting off back to his hotel, the Rain City superheroes had stopped a couple blocks away outside a nightclub called Trinity.

Speaker 11 Lot of people out here.

Speaker 11 Right spot. I think we're definitely in the right spot.
Absolutely.

Speaker 5 Phoenix was preoccupied with some communication problems.

Speaker 32 Say it again. We're losing contact, brother.

Speaker 11 Our radios were trash. We had literally good radios that we had painted.

Speaker 25 Karma, what's your code?

Speaker 11 I tried to hail Captain Karma on the radio and he didn't answer. Karma, report.

Speaker 32 Make him give me good radio contact, all right? Who's running your radio?

Speaker 5 Phoenix was getting frustrated.

Speaker 32 Can you hear when I call you? Yes. I called you three times.
You didn't respond. Really? Yes, really.
Put it in your pocket.

Speaker 32 Put it in your pocket. I'm holding it.

Speaker 5 Put it back where it was. At this point, locked in a petty argument about communication, they had no idea that their night was about to be turned inside out.

Speaker 32 And I couldn't hear what codes you were, so I freaked out. Because.

Speaker 12 Bang, bang, bang.

Speaker 32 Gunshots, gunshots, gunshots.

Speaker 11 Three gunshots go off, and I'm like, yo, follow me. Team one, team two, follow me.

Speaker 5 Phoenix immediately started sprinting towards the sound.

Speaker 5 Within seconds, he'd arrived at a street called Yesler Way. People were screaming and fleeing in all directions.

Speaker 11 There's a person standing on their cell phone. There's a guy who's kind of crouching, you know.
And then over here, there's like a car that's driving by. And then I see it.

Speaker 11 The guy crouching's got a gun.

Speaker 5 Dennis said he and his friend were there too, in the midst of the chaos. They'd been crossing the road when the shots were fired.

Speaker 20 You could hear the panic. It was chaos, like scary.

Speaker 5 Over on his side of Yessler Way, Phoenix froze.

Speaker 11 Out of the corner of my eye, the person on the cell phone just like,

Speaker 11 drops.

Speaker 11 And it's a weird kind of drop because it's like,

Speaker 11 like everything just stopped working versus like someone laying down or being hurt. It's like it just was like,

Speaker 5 The person who dropped to the ground was 21-year-old Nicole Westbrook.

Speaker 5 Nicole had been shot in the face and the bullet had gone through her cheek and shattered her spine. Dennis said he ran towards her.

Speaker 20 Everything slowed down. It went into like slow motion.
I was just trying to keep her alert and awake and talking to me.

Speaker 20 So I had my hand kind of underneath her neck to kind of have her like look at me and talk to me.

Speaker 26 And I felt blood underneath her neck.

Speaker 20 I could tell that's where she had been shot. And

Speaker 20 yeah, I just sat there kind of screaming and yelling for police to come.

Speaker 5 By this point, Dennis said the square had emptied.

Speaker 20 It was scary, quiet after the shooting, because everybody was gone.

Speaker 20 There wasn't a soul around me.

Speaker 5 Phoenix was gone too.

Speaker 5 He'd taken off in pursuit of the person he'd seen crouching, who he thought was the gunman.

Speaker 5 He tore down the street, past confused onlookers, and he says he ran into the cops who were arriving on the scene.

Speaker 11 And I'm like, yo, the shooter went this way. And the cops like, hold up, Phoenix.

Speaker 5 Phoenix says the police wanted to wait for backup.

Speaker 11 I'm like, that's ridiculous. I didn't come into this game to play these rules and like do this shit like, but it was too late.

Speaker 11 It's mathematically not intelligent to run around a blind corner into the dark with a dude who has a weapon. But it could have done it if I kept going when I started.

Speaker 11 If I hadn't stopped. I wanted to do something.

Speaker 11 You know, we all got dressed up to do something.

Speaker 5 In the body cam footage available online, Phoenix talks to the police a few times, but I couldn't hear the cops telling him to turn back.

Speaker 5 Either way, Phoenix says he'd lost sight of the man he was chasing, and he blames himself for giving up the chase.

Speaker 5 Back at the intersection on Yessler Way, Dennis says he sat with Nicole and her boyfriend until the ambulance arrived.

Speaker 5 The couple had just moved to Seattle three weeks earlier.

Speaker 5 Nicole had just started classes in a culinary program at the Art Institute, and her boyfriend had recently been hired at a screen printing shop.

Speaker 5 They were out that night to celebrate their good fortune at landing a job and starting a new life together in the city.

Speaker 5 When the ambulance arrived, Nicole was alive, but in critical condition.

Speaker 5 Dennis watched the medics pull away and walked back to his hotel with his shirt covered in blood.

Speaker 20 I remember seeing like a, he's dressed up like a superhero in a cape.

Speaker 20 You know, you're in downtown Seattle. It's another crazy guy dressed up in a costume.

Speaker 20 I really didn't think anything of it.

Speaker 11 It's all going to stay with me probably forever.

Speaker 20 It just changes you when something like that happens.

Speaker 5 Phoenix says that after he gave up his pursuit of the gunman, he returned to the scene of the shooting.

Speaker 11 The cops wouldn't let me leave because I was the key witness of the thing. And I'm sitting there on the curb, right there, like on the corner.
And then

Speaker 11 after a little bit of time, like

Speaker 11 the crime tape, they just take the crime tape down.

Speaker 11 And then I'm sitting there and I'm just

Speaker 11 me.

Speaker 11 And I'm just like sitting next to this pile of blood on the street in my suit.

Speaker 11 And it's like the morning.

Speaker 11 And like people are coming to work and like living their lives and doing their thing.

Speaker 11 And then like

Speaker 11 maybe like seven,

Speaker 11 a fire truck comes by

Speaker 11 and just sprays all the blood into the drain.

Speaker 11 And that was it.

Speaker 11 You know what I mean?

Speaker 11 Like

Speaker 11 nothing got fixed.

Speaker 11 Nothing got solved.

Speaker 11 None of us helped in any way.

Speaker 11 The shooter never got captured.

Speaker 11 We all just didn't

Speaker 11 do our job.

Speaker 5 Nicole never regained consciousness. She died in the hospital three days after she was shot.
It's still an unsolved case.

Speaker 5 Her family keeps a Facebook page running, hoping for new information that might lead to an arrest.

Speaker 11 There are just moments in your life that you're never going to forget. Yeah.

Speaker 11 I took a long portion of my life and dedicated it to stopping bad people from doing bad things. And

Speaker 11 I don't care if people don't like me. I don't care if people don't agree with what I did, but

Speaker 11 I live with the repercussions of what I did every day.

Speaker 11 You know? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Realistically, there's nothing Phoenix could have done to save Nicole.

Speaker 5 He was blocks away when the shots were fired, but maybe that's why he was so affected by it.

Speaker 5 When Phoenix told me about how he'd been inspired by the Nightwing comics as a kid, he'd vowed that he would never be helpless again.

Speaker 5 But when it came to the senseless act of violence that ended Nicole Westbrook's life, he was just as powerless as everyone else.

Speaker 5 Several of Phoenix's former teammates told me that he was never the same after that night.

Speaker 5 Ghost, who was with Phoenix during the shooting and has known him since they were in high school, put it bluntly.

Speaker 33 That was when my friend, in my mind, died.

Speaker 33 And what we have now is not who I used to know.

Speaker 33 But

Speaker 33 he did used to mean a lot to me as a person. I followed him into gunfire multiple times.

Speaker 11 He did too. You know, we all did.

Speaker 33 Against our better judgment often.

Speaker 11 But

Speaker 33 in my opinion, he took that, the fact that we couldn't save that one person that night way too personally.

Speaker 33 And I don't know, it sounds terrible coming out like that, but like, There's a nature to this, and we're not going to win everything, you know, But he somehow took that upon himself in a way that I think changed him.

Speaker 5 Phoenix returned from that devastating patrol a different man,

Speaker 5 and the transformation would have consequences for everyone around him.

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Speaker 5 In the days after Nicole Westbrook's murder, Phoenix was in bad shape.

Speaker 11 Didn't come inside the house, take a shower, take my super suit, including my mask off, for four days.

Speaker 11 I was like patrolling at night and then just like just sleeping outside wherever I wanted.

Speaker 11 I mean, I lost my mind. I just like stopped living for like four days.

Speaker 5 Phoenix was fixated on the man he'd seen crouching at the scene of the crime, and he was determined to find him. How were you able to find him? Because you knew what he looked like?

Speaker 11 I knew what he looked like. I knew most likely from his clothes he didn't have a car.
And there's this place called the jungle. It's like a lot of homeless encampments.

Speaker 11 It's just stretched next to the side of the city freeway. And I was like, I bet you he's in that place.

Speaker 5 The jungle stretches for three miles in a green belt directly underneath Interstate 5.

Speaker 5 It's a sea of tents with a constant drone of traffic from the cars 50 feet overhead.

Speaker 5 According to some reports, unhoused people have lived in the jungle since as far back as the 1930s.

Speaker 5 Phoenix made his way to the jungle in the hopes of finding the suspect.

Speaker 11 And I went through every single tent

Speaker 11 and ripped them apart

Speaker 11 and gotten fights

Speaker 11 and destroyed things.

Speaker 5 This is one of the few times Phoenix has ever admitted to losing his cool and going against his own strict moral code.

Speaker 5 Despite his objections in the past about homeless outreach not being a central part of his mission as a superhero, He's always claimed to offer assistance to those in need when he comes across them.

Speaker 5 But rampaging through a homeless encampment and destroying people's only belongings, Phoenix was out of control.

Speaker 11 Eventually, someone was like, yo, stop it. This is where that dude's at.
And this took me there. And then me and him had a conversation.

Speaker 5 Phoenix told me that when he finally found the man he'd been hunting for days, it turned out that he'd been after the wrong person.

Speaker 5 Phoenix said the man talked to him and convinced him that he wasn't the shooter. The police investigating believe it was was a drive-by and that the shots had been fired from a white sedan.

Speaker 5 When he heard this, Phoenix felt totally deflated.

Speaker 11 I went back to like under the bridge on James Street. There's like a parking lot.

Speaker 11 I was sitting up against a pole and asked guys to go to sleep under the parking lot and then Ghost found me because of my cell phone tracker that we had on.

Speaker 11 He's like, yo, you gotta stop patrolling.

Speaker 5 Ghost had been there the night of the shooting as well, but he told me he had a different perspective on it than Phoenix.

Speaker 33 It does get to me in that way. I have severe PTSD, and I manage it every day of my life.
You know, there'd be something wrong with you if it didn't get to you, but you can't let one loss define you.

Speaker 33 You know, and I think that's what he did.

Speaker 5 In the aftermath of the shooting, some team members were skeptical about how sincere Phoenix's reaction was.

Speaker 5 Fellow real-life superhero Crystal Marks told me that she always felt that Phoenix used Nicole Westbrook's murder to his advantage.

Speaker 34 I think it definitely left an impact. You can't be a human and know that that happened and not be changed in some way.
But he keeps coming back and like, I can't rest until her killer is found.

Speaker 34 And it's again, he uses it for media attention. Like, I don't know if he really was all that impacted.

Speaker 5 Phoenix did interviews with the media about the murder. Nicole's family thanked him on their Facebook page for raising awareness.

Speaker 5 But Phoenix also had a comic book made, which featured the shooting starring him. It included graphic images of Nicole laying in a pool of her own blood.

Speaker 5 Phoenix said on a radio show that it was intended to shine a light on the unsolved case.

Speaker 5 But there's something about making a comic book about a tragedy like that and making yourself the star. that just feels a little gross to me.

Speaker 5 Whenever Nicole's murder came up and I talked to him, Phoenix was still very emotional about it, even all these years later.

Speaker 11 I just, I cannot explain why this event

Speaker 11 hurts me so much inside.

Speaker 11 This person I don't know getting shot by someone I don't know in a scenario when the guns were already done before we could do anything. You know?

Speaker 11 There's nothing we could have done. There's no amount of training.
There's no amount of superhero suits or movies or ideas or beliefs that are changing that.

Speaker 11 Nothing changes that.

Speaker 5 Phoenix told me that after the shooting, his approach to crime fighting totally changed.

Speaker 11 I start patrol, right? About an hour into patrol, I'd be like, all right, guys. If I need you, I'll give you a call.

Speaker 11 And then I would go tear up the jungle and get in fist fights with like crazy, like just crazy shit, you know?

Speaker 11 Or like me and Jack would break into an abandoned house that was full of like homeless people that were selling drugs in there. And like we would just do reckless things.
I was on a reckless mission.

Speaker 11 I was just on one.

Speaker 5 Phoenix was acting increasingly wild and impulsive. Evo called him out on it.

Speaker 11 Evo was the straight shooter. Like every time I tell him about a plan, he would just be like, no.
You want to go break into an abandoned house? No. Like no, right?

Speaker 11 But the crew of guys wanted to patrol and Evo was the secondary guy that they would follow.

Speaker 11 evo grew more and more frustrated with phoenix's erratic behavior he wouldn't answer anything he wouldn't answer calls he wouldn't answer texts voicemails emails messages on facebook or twitter or anything like that like he was unreachable in the meantime like okay well the show must go on so

Speaker 11 almost out of necessity i would leap into this thing like uh hey everybody i just uh uh heard from phoenix that we're doing cap hill tonight so meet at our usual spot at 11 o'clock and we'll figure out roles there and be safe.

Speaker 5 I asked Phoenix about what Evo had told me. I think he got frustrated because he said oftentimes you would just disappear and not be reachable and you'd have to kind of like step in.

Speaker 5 And I feel like he felt like that hindered the patrols.

Speaker 11 I would agree it did.

Speaker 11 What was going on with you at that time?

Speaker 11 I was going rogue. So what he's talking about is like the rogue era.

Speaker 11 The rogue era.

Speaker 5 Phoenix made no apologies about that chaotic period.

Speaker 11 Maybe you should go save a sex trafficking ring occasionally, or maybe you should do something, Evo, because the thing that Evo's done was just what has Evo done?

Speaker 11 Did Evo tell you about any of his cool crime stops? Tell me what Evo's crime stops.

Speaker 11 I'll wait.

Speaker 11 None? He's not here, but I can't think of it. Yeah, but I mean, does he have any? Yeah.

Speaker 11 I mean, you just interviewed him, right?

Speaker 11 What was one story he told you about where he stopped a crime?

Speaker 11 I don't think he told any. Because he doesn't have any.
Stop the bagel. Evo stopped zero crimes.
Full bagels. I'm not being mean.
None. So what are you talking about, bro?

Speaker 11 Oh, Phoenix would leave all the time and go fight real crimes while you walked around and gave food to homeless people and smiled for photos and shit because you're like a Captain America.

Speaker 11 And that's great, dude. Congratulations for you.
But like, I'm in some real shit.

Speaker 11 We're out here. People are dying.
I want to do some real fucking shit.

Speaker 5 As things started to unravel for Phoenix, there were other troubling lapses in judgment that caused alarm among his teammates. One incident in particular really rattled Evo.

Speaker 11 It was about 11 a.m. and I showed up to his house and he has passed out on the couch,

Speaker 26 half naked and like, hey, dude, gotta

Speaker 11 get up, man. We gotta go.

Speaker 5 As Phoenix was waking up, Evo went to use the bathroom.

Speaker 5 That's when he noticed the bottle of pills.

Speaker 11 Right next to the sink is this little medical bottle on its side, half empty. Looking at it, it's Rohipnol.

Speaker 11 Like, what the fuck is he doing with fucking date rape drug? What the hell is that?

Speaker 12 So I come out and I say, hey, what's a little bottle of roofies out there?

Speaker 11 And he just started like almost panic speaking at a million miles per hour, talking about how this friend of his had roofied purple.

Speaker 11 So Phoenix got some roofies and he was going to roofie this friend of his in revenge. It clearly made sense to him, but I was so lost on, like, this is something you call the police for, bro.
This is,

Speaker 11 how is this helping anyone? Or like, what does this fix?

Speaker 5 I asked Phoenix about this incident, and he didn't deny it.

Speaker 11 That's true. Yeah, it happened.
Can you tell that story? Fuck you, oh, man. You shouldn't have shared that.
See, remember when I said there were things I've actually done that are bad, right?

Speaker 11 This is one of those things I've actually done.

Speaker 5 Phoenix says he'd seen a guy put rhohipnol in his girlfriend's drink. So he threw out the drink, stole the rhohipnol, and decided to take the matter into his own hands.

Speaker 11 I was like, yo, Evo, you got to help me. And I stole the bottle and Evo's like, I'm not going to commit a crime with you.
He's like, how dare you want to rhohipnol someone?

Speaker 11 I don't even know if that's where you got it. And I got all like ridiculous about it, which made sense.

Speaker 5 Phoenix went through with his plan without Evo.

Speaker 11 So then I immediately got on the phone and called. Someone else, super friend of mine, who was like, I'm 100% down.
That's terrible.

Speaker 11 So we went to this party and i dropped in this dude's drink and he just

Speaker 11 out right so i rented a hotel put him in the hotel took all of his clothes off wrote a note on the door that said thanks for the good time and dipped with the guy passed out phoenix says they took his credit card and ordered shrimp and 37 bottles of champagne We threw the shrimp all around the room and just put like, put cooks bottles and then we put condoms over the tops of cook's bottles.

Speaker 11 So he just woke up in this room with just like shrimp and cooks bottles.

Speaker 5 So was that, was that a Phoenix Jones operation or was that a Ben Foto operation?

Speaker 11 How do you oh, I wasn't in my uniform. I went in my regular clothes.
I would never do that as Phoenix Jones. There's no reason

Speaker 5 to me this whole story just seems like an example of Phoenix's immaturity. But it was also an example of yet another way in which Phoenix was not as he keeps insisting perfect.

Speaker 11 The first time we talked, you kept insisting that you were perfect at crime fighting, but then today, I feel like you just keep telling all these stories about when you weren't perfect I'm curious how you like square those two ideas perfect in crime fighting is just this not breaking the law not harming other people and stopping the crime right we've done that every time but what about Nicole I mean that's not a win not possible to win but isn't that a little bit like no no no no well I'm just saying the person who did it never got caught right oh 100 Well that's not a success then my job is not to catch the people who do crimes is to protect the people who are getting hurt from the crime.

Speaker 11 You have a misconception of what crime fighting is because you don't have any experience on the streets. There's no tidy closed corners, not even in police work, never, right?

Speaker 11 But there's not one story where I showed up and it got worse, or I showed up and no one got helped, or I showed up and they're like, you broke the law.

Speaker 11 Or like, they sued me 27 times trying to say I broke the law and I fucking didn't. There's never been any of that.
It's been 100% flawless. So I don't care if you don't agree.
You're just wrong.

Speaker 5 I hate to beat a dead horse here, but I am fixated on this claim of Phoenix's that he is perfect at crime fighting.

Speaker 5 Largely because I want to believe in Phoenix Jones and I want to believe in what he stands for. I see the need for real-life superheroes and the potential benefit to society they can provide.

Speaker 5 But Phoenix's life is messy. And there are so many people who say he's betrayed them that it's hard to know if he is to be trusted.

Speaker 5 And Phoenix's claim that he is perfect perfect is one of the instances where I feel entirely confident pushing back against his version of the story.

Speaker 5 We have had this debate where you say you're perfect at crime fighting.

Speaker 11 Don't get me.

Speaker 5 I disagree. What I'm more interested in is like, why, because you admittedly have this like disastrous life.

Speaker 11 Like

Speaker 5 you're always like late to things. Like your cars are going to push.
You have a lot of personal struggles. Always.

Speaker 5 And the reason I find the like idea that you can be perfect in crime fighting is like when you put on the suit, you don't become a different person.

Speaker 5 And so like how in your mind do you justify this compartmentalization where like

Speaker 5 you're perfect at this thing, but everything else in your life is a mess. And more importantly, like why do you feel this need to be perfect at crime fighting?

Speaker 11 I don't. I'm single-minded to the point of recklessness.
And that's why I'm so good at crime fighting and why I'm so bad at everything else. Like I've got to come to an interview today, right?

Speaker 11 But my car got fucking towed because of some thing. So now I'm focused on that car toe and I'm late for the interview.

Speaker 11 But when you walk up to a crime scenario, it happens in front of you and involves all of your attention. It's not not ideal to need to be perfect, it's just what I am.

Speaker 5 Every time we get into this debate, we reach a stalemate.

Speaker 5 But regardless of whether or not you believe Phoenix's logic, I think it's safe to say that what he sees as his greatest failure as a superhero, Nicole Westbrook's murder, changed his life forever.

Speaker 11 I don't know. It was weird.
But if we could like make chapters of people's lives, or like in like our time we use before Christ, like BC and AD,

Speaker 11 my life would be like before Nicole and after.

Speaker 11 It just never got better.

Speaker 11 And it's really like where the team started unraveling.

Speaker 5 That unraveling would ultimately lead to a superhero breakup on a mass scale. Next time, the Rain City superheroes come crashing to an end.

Speaker 5 The Superhero Complex is hosted and written by me, David Weinberg, and reported by me, Amalia Sortland, and Caroline Thornham.

Speaker 5 Production from Amalia Sortland and Caroline Thornham. Sean Glenn, Max O'Brien, and David Waters are executive producers.
Fact-checking by Andrew Schwartz.

Speaker 5 Production management from Cherie Houston, Frankie Taylor, and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing, and scoring by Nicholas Alexander and Daniel Kempson.

Speaker 5 Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander and David Waters. Original music is composed by Paul Housden.

Speaker 5 Special thanks to Peter Tangen, Willard Foxton, Matt O'Meara, Katrina Norvell, Beth Ann McAluso, Oren Rosenbaum, Rosenbaum, Shelby Schenkman, and all the team at UTA.

Speaker 5 For more from Novel, visit novel.audio.

Speaker 12 Welcome back.

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Speaker 7 This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

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