Saudi Arabia’s Richest Man Prince Alwaleed bin Talal on Trump’s Tariffs, DeepSeek, Israel, and Iran

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Speaker 3 Principally, thank you very much. The reason I've been so anxious to talk to you is because

Speaker 3 as someone who's been investing more successfully than almost anyone around the world for 45 years, I think we've got a pretty good handle of what's going on in the world.

Speaker 3 Are you hopeful right now in this moment? Let's just start, biggest possible picture.

Speaker 2 Yes, I'm positive. I'm hopeful.

Speaker 2 With the Trump administration coming very forcefully,

Speaker 2 with clear vision about where the world should be heading. I'm optimistic, cautiously optimistic, but it's going to take some time because the legacy that Trump had is a big one.
Yes.

Speaker 2 On foreign policy, domestic policy, debt, immigration. We will talk about all these things obviously today.
But the legacy is so big.

Speaker 2 And we've seen that the first week of Trump, or now the first 10 days, is coming very strongly.

Speaker 2 And I really hope that this momentum stays and have a positive effect on the international international community as much as

Speaker 2 it will have a good impact on the domestic US policy.

Speaker 3 When Trump was elected in November, the world was really on the cusp of

Speaker 3 two big conflicts that could potentially get much bigger in Eastern Europe and in this region. Do you think

Speaker 3 he can successfully resolve those conflicts?

Speaker 2 Look, we all know Netanyahu is going to meet him tomorrow.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 And I really hope that President Trump is very forceful in

Speaker 2 imposing or at least forcing Israel to have a peaceful resolution to this Palestinian issue that's been going on since the 19 mid late 1940s.

Speaker 2 It's about time to have a final solution for the Palestinian cause to stop all those terrorist acts that are really unwarranted, like the one that happened in October.

Speaker 2 And obviously, you're alluding to the Ukraine war.

Speaker 2 Also, it's about time to have this war end, a useless war between Russia and Ukraine that caused hundreds of thousands of people to die from both sides, civilians and

Speaker 2 otherwise.

Speaker 3 What's the solution to the problem in the Middle East?

Speaker 2 Look, the stated official position of Saudi Arabia, which I really support, of Current Prince Mohammed Minsalman, who was announced on your ex-channel, Fox. Yes.
And he said publicly that

Speaker 2 we are

Speaker 2 having discussions with Israel to acknowledge each other. But as a good pro-we need to have Palestinian state,

Speaker 2 we need to have the rights of the Palestinians acknowledged. And we need to have Palestine independent and have as its capital city East Jerusalem.

Speaker 2 So if these things are met, I think Saudi Arabia is more than ready to have

Speaker 2 diplomatic relations

Speaker 2 between Saudi Arabia and Israel, as Crown Prince Smith Mohammed Sama announced a few months ago.

Speaker 3 From an outsider's perspective, Saudi Arabia does not have official diplomatic relations with Israel, but it's certainly aligned with Israel against Iran. That's the way it looks from outside.

Speaker 3 Do you think that's fair to say? Oh, look, I mean,

Speaker 2 it's very easy to get

Speaker 2 against Iran, aligned against Iran. Iran is, you know,

Speaker 2 is a nation based dogmatically

Speaker 2 on terroristic ideas.

Speaker 2 We have seen how every country that Iran goes to, you have turmoil. Look at Iraq, Syria, Lebanon,

Speaker 2 Gaza, Yemen,

Speaker 2 Sudan, all those countries, what's common among them, you have the Iranian infiltration in them.

Speaker 2 So clearly

Speaker 2 it's not easy, not difficult at all to be in alliance with any country against Iran, because Iran always plants the seeds of trouble, chaos and confusion, wherever they are.

Speaker 3 So that's the view of Israel too, as you know. Exactly.
So you have that big perspective in common with the Israeli government, despite your differences.

Speaker 3 So there's been progress, I would say, between Saudi Arabia and Israel, but I don't think there's been any progress on the prospect of a Palestinian state. People have been saying that for, you know,

Speaker 3 well, certainly since 1967, but we're feels like we're farther from that.

Speaker 2 We are very far off, of course, after what happened

Speaker 2 in Gaza. But I think with the strong leadership from the United States and with the

Speaker 2 effectiveness that the United States could really have

Speaker 2 in the West Bank with the Palestinian authorities, if they can have these people being more effective and more dynamic and inject

Speaker 2 some fluidity and some

Speaker 2 power and influence in them, they could really be the power to break in with so where Israel could have a

Speaker 2 negotiate with the Palestinian Authority and hopefully that they can have a control over what's happening

Speaker 2 in Gaza also.

Speaker 3 How closely are people in the Arab world following what's happening there?

Speaker 2 Oh, for sure. I mean, the Arab world has been following very closely the destruction that happened in Gaza.
I mean, for sure, a terrorist attack did happen there in October,

Speaker 2 But the disproportionate and the complete disproportionate proportionality of the Israeli attack on Gaza that wiped out the

Speaker 2 whole northern part of Gaza was really unwarranted. You know, hospitals, schools, cities, universities, they were all demolished completely.
So, yes, we're following them very closely, for sure.

Speaker 3 Do people here hold the United States responsible for that?

Speaker 2 I'm not sure at all that they hold the United States.

Speaker 2 I mean, some do

Speaker 2 that, and they capitalize on the very positive and strong alliance between the United States and Israel. But realistically speaking, what happened there really was really Israeli-based.

Speaker 2 Clearly, the United States did support that. But we have seen also, even the Biden administration, and even Trump, you know, I'm not sure he was very much

Speaker 2 happy with what happened there at all.

Speaker 2 But at the end of the day, you know, what happened did happen. And now we need to see how we can put this behind us and open a new chapter in the Middle East.
Clearly, with the Syrian

Speaker 2 regime neutralized and having a new, I'll not say pro-Western regime, but at least not anti-American regime in Syria, with Hamas hopefully demolished completely.

Speaker 2 And more importantly, Hezbollah being almost neutralized in Lebanon. These are very, big, big pluses

Speaker 2 and as an inducement to have a peaceful solution for the Palestinian cause.

Speaker 3 You know Donald Trump well.

Speaker 2 I know him a long time ago, you know, from the time we bought from him the Plaza Hotel, and we also bought from him his

Speaker 2 Trump Princess yacht that I still have.

Speaker 3 How did you wind up with Donald Trump's yacht? Not many people can say that. Not many people have Donald Trump's yacht, but you do.
How did you get it? I mean, how did that happen?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 we bought it, I think, you know, in the late 80s. And Trump did take possession of it and he renovated it.
And I think he reached a stage where he did not really want to have it anymore.

Speaker 2 So we did buy it from him.

Speaker 2 the what was your experience of trump what's he like no i mean look with trump i think if you're straight with him you know you get a straight answer you know i had very good dealing with president trump uh you know when he was a businessman whether during the the the purchase of the plaza hotel from him or buying his uh his uh trump princess yacht so you were not anti-trump oh no no i'm not we can't be anti-trump you know we because we are pro-america we have to be pro-Trump especially with the new policies that he's taking right now.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm very much conservative, socially speaking. Yes.

Speaker 2 And all his policies right now, in being anti-walk, being anti-left-wing, being anti-all those crazy things that's happening on the left, we are for sure for Trump on these matters.

Speaker 2 And also, all his policies, economic policies,

Speaker 2 in looking after the eradication of the U.S. deficit, these are all conservative policies that we support.
Look, I lived in America.

Speaker 2 I graduated from the West Coast, you know, from University in California, and I finished my master's in the East Coast in America. So we all love America.
We want America to be strong.

Speaker 3 What did you think over the last eight years as you watched the woke, the sexual politics in the United States?

Speaker 2 I mean, it went just too far, too much, you know, really. And it's about time for America to get a logical person, a pragmatic person, like Trump.

Speaker 2 I know some of his policies are extreme to some people, but his social policies, being anti-woke, being being anti-left-wing completely, being too liberal, I mean, these are really policies that, you know, this are logical.

Speaker 2 Look, I'm a religious person.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 America is still a very conservative country. And one of the

Speaker 2 main ingredients of the success of Trump

Speaker 2 in the last election was really his social policies. Many people in America believe that America went too much to the left.

Speaker 2 So I think getting back America to the center, at least to center, not necessarily to the right, to center, that in itself is a big achievement for America.

Speaker 3 So you hear that in countries around the world. We admire the United States.
The entire leadership of most of the world went to college in the United States.

Speaker 3 How did people in this region and other countries you visit feel about seeing men dressed as women at the White House and all that stuff? Were they.

Speaker 2 It's crazy. It's nonsense.
It's nonsense. And this transgender idea right now, I mean, having in the military, all those transgender people, you know, and toilets, you know,

Speaker 2 having being mixed, and you know, having, for example,

Speaker 2 a male who was transferred in the lady going to compete into women's sports. I guess it's too much.
It's going too far. It's just too much.
I mean, we reached a stage in America, if you're not walk.

Speaker 2 I mean, you are crazy or you are anti-establishment. And I don't think it's too much.
It's going too far. So I think what Tom is doing right now is at least moving to the center.

Speaker 2 You know, we are not against LBGTQ, even the plus, whatever the plus means.

Speaker 3 What is the plus?

Speaker 2 That's a scary part. I would rather not talk about it.

Speaker 3 You'd rather not talk about the plus?

Speaker 2 I would rather not talk about it. That's very scary.
Yeah, I get it. The plus.
LBGTQ understand. But the plus, that's, you know, we can have another interview for that.
Let's put this aside.

Speaker 2 I'm comfortable with that. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.

Speaker 3 So that, I mean, you must have been confused watching that. This is a country you went to school and you know well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I lived in America. And when I was in America, I know, I mean, you have left-wing, right-wing, that's fine.
Yes.

Speaker 2 But to go that much much to the left and have this work movement, no, it went too far. Look, America leads the world.

Speaker 2 I understand there are, you know, China wants to be there, India wants to be there,

Speaker 2 the European wants to be there. And then today, America is leading the world, whether you like it or not.
No matter how isolationist policies

Speaker 2 are adopted in America, America will still lead the world for many years to come. Yes.
Politically, economically, financially,

Speaker 2 in all cases. So we want America to lead the lead the right way.

Speaker 2 You cannot lead the world with this work movement. You cannot.
We would not accept that.

Speaker 3 You're one of the biggest media investors in the world and have been. I worked for a company.
I think you were the biggest outside investor, I think, in News Corp, Fox News.

Speaker 3 And you've got investments in a million different media companies. Many of those media companies

Speaker 3 went way to the left. What did you think of that as a shareholder?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, our main investment was with Fox, Franklin, Speaking, and News Corp, which is Murdoch.
Murdoch was always, you know, mainstream to the right a little bit, obviously.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 we did have a lot of other investment, small ones, but they were all divested a long time ago. But our main investment in all media, legacy media, was with Ms.
Murdoch.

Speaker 2 And we sold out, you know, a year before he merged his entities with Disney.

Speaker 2 So, no, left, the media in the America went too much to the left. And most of them.

Speaker 2 The only remaining soldier, frankly speaking, who really withstood the heat is Illy Mürdoch, the Murdoch Muldoch Empire.

Speaker 2 Whether it's Fox, New York Post, Worsey Journal, and Fox, they are all, you know, center the right.

Speaker 3 So you

Speaker 3 divested from Fox, from News Corp, and then you made a huge investment in X under Elon. Exactly.
Why did you do that? Yeah,

Speaker 3 most

Speaker 2 of our investments now went to X and X AI. Obviously, they were with

Speaker 2 the Musk. Now,

Speaker 2 I call X really

Speaker 2 is the new media, frankly speaking.

Speaker 3 X.

Speaker 2 That's why we invested. And with Mr.
Musk, I think

Speaker 2 he's a big force to be reckoned with, frankly speaking. And we are second biggest shareholder in X and XAIE.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 the sale of X was closely watched by everybody around the world.

Speaker 3 He wound up buying the company at what seemed like twice its actual value, and people made fun of him. Where is it now, would you say?

Speaker 2 Yeah, on our books.

Speaker 2 You know, we have two investments. We have Kingdom Holding, which I share,

Speaker 2 and I have my private investments. So we have with Musk around $3 billion

Speaker 2 investments. In our books, it's valued

Speaker 2 more than 50% more.

Speaker 2 Clearly, as for X, we never devalued it.

Speaker 2 Some entities did devalue it by 30, 40, 50%.

Speaker 2 We never devalued it. Clearly, now after the election of President Trump and after the strong alliance between Musk and President Trump, we've seen the market

Speaker 2 having

Speaker 2 revalue upwards X dramatically, at least to its par value, at the $44 billion that they paid for it.

Speaker 3 What do you think its actual value is?

Speaker 2 I believe the actual value is more than double, frankly speaking.

Speaker 3 More than double the 44 years.

Speaker 2 Exactly. And

Speaker 2 it's going to happen right now because VD is going to come. And you know, now

Speaker 2 pay is going to come into it.

Speaker 2 You know, they're going to pay X.

Speaker 2 It's going to happen right now in the first quarter. So many things are going to

Speaker 2 are going to happen to X to really to have it as the main hub and anchor for many things around it.

Speaker 3 So, but as a political and social force, is there a more powerful media organization?

Speaker 2 As stands today, I believe X is really number one. We've seen how Meta tried to have another company thread, but it didn't take off.

Speaker 3 Why?

Speaker 3 Look,

Speaker 2 I think X really began very forcefully and strongly. And

Speaker 2 freedom of speech was there, was open, you know, clearly. When everyone was against X,

Speaker 2 freedom of speech and freedom of expression

Speaker 2 without much fact-checking,

Speaker 2 that gave it

Speaker 2 the forum to be

Speaker 2 the anchor of the new media and the world. And you see, right now, Meta is moving the X model.
As I told you when I just met you off the record a minute ago, that Meta now is being exercised.

Speaker 2 It's being like X right now. And this helps X reaching its potential of

Speaker 2 being fully valued at $44 billion and more. So all the advertisers that really so-called fled or left X are coming back right now because Alternative is doing exactly what X used to do.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 3 So you think that Elon Musk has had a big effect on Mark Zuckerberg?

Speaker 2 There's no doubt because we have seen now Mark Zuckerberg and Meta is moving

Speaker 2 to the X model. Not only that, you know, not only operationally, but I've seen just lately that Meta is going to move this so-called administrative headquarters from Delaware to Texas.
So really,

Speaker 2 Musk and X is being followed across the board.

Speaker 3 So you think Zuckerberg is just kind of trailing behind Elon Musk, doing what he does?

Speaker 2 Well, you know, I look, Musk is very close to the leader of the whole world, President Trump. And no one wants, no businessman, whether it is Mark Zuckerberg or Mr.
Bezos or the Google head, want

Speaker 2 Musk to be the only

Speaker 2 man who has the ear of President Trump. They all want to have at least a small piece of the pie.
Yes. And that's what's happening, basically.

Speaker 3 But what's interesting,

Speaker 3 clearly, but what's interesting is that they didn't want it the first time. All these businessmen, smartest, most powerful in the world, made a bet in 2016 that opposing Trump would pay off for them.

Speaker 2 Why do you think they did that? It was a wrong bet.

Speaker 2 Very bluntly speaking. It was a wrong bet.
Trump came back in a major upset.

Speaker 3 He must have scared the hell out of them.

Speaker 2 When he got elected, I mean, no one expected Trump to come back, frankly speaking. And frankly speaking,

Speaker 2 the Democrats played a very big,

Speaker 2 big mistake. They custom made, you know, I talk as an independent, I'm a Saudi, I'm a royalist, neither Democrat or Republican.

Speaker 2 You know, I love America. They clearly custom made those lawsuits against them to be an election year.
And I understand this is very delicate.

Speaker 2 Not many people in America could speak this language freely. But they custom made it to be an election year.

Speaker 2 And that backfired, frankly speaking, and helped Trump being elected. Yes.
You know? And they were custom made to be.

Speaker 2 I mean, why he waited three years after Trump left, and they all came to these lawsuits in the

Speaker 2 last

Speaker 2 one year of the Biden era. I was too much.

Speaker 3 So you didn't see that as the equal application of the law.

Speaker 2 Come on, give me a break. That's very clear.
I lived in America. I know America very well.
There's too much politics. That's one of the

Speaker 2 attributing reasons that caused Trump to win. The American public rejected these lawsuits and all those so-called indictments or whatever they are.

Speaker 3 Do you ever feel like you can't trust the things you hear or read? Like every news source is hollowed, distorted, or clearly just propaganda lying to you? Well, you're not imagining it.

Speaker 3 If the last few years have proven anything, it's that legacy media exists.

Speaker 3 to distort the truth and to control you, to gatekeep information from the public instead of letting you know what's what's actually going on. They don't want you to know.

Speaker 3 But there is, however, a publication that fights this that is not propaganda, one that we read every month and have for many years. It's called Imprimus.
It's from Hillsdale College in Michigan.

Speaker 3 Imprimus is a free speech digest that features some of the best minds in the country addressing the questions that actually matter, the ones that are not addressed in the Washington Post or NBC News.

Speaker 3 The best part of it, it is free, no cost whatsoever, no strings attached. They just send it to you.

Speaker 3 Hillsdale will send Imprimus right to your your house no charge all you got to do is ask go to tuckerforhillsdale calm subscribe for free today that's tuckerforhillsdale.com

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Speaker 3 Terms apply. Mark Zuckerberg and you spent $400 million to beat Trump in 2020.
And all of a sudden, he rises from the grave.

Speaker 3 How do you feel? Terrified, right?

Speaker 2 Well, at least, you know, to acknowledge your mistake and to correct it is better than continue with your mistake. Right.
I'll to be honest with you. You know, I'm investor in Meta also.

Speaker 2 Smaller scale, not like X, but I'm investor in X and he's right. Look, at the share price, reflecting the share price.

Speaker 3 You've invested in X AI.

Speaker 3 What do you envision the world looks like after in 10 years thanks to AI?

Speaker 2 Well, no doubt that artificial intelligence is going to play a big role in having evolution in the whole social industry, in the economics, politics, economics, finance, etc.

Speaker 2 So AI is just beginning. We are in the first inning right now.
Yes. And there's no doubt that AI, artificial intelligence, will really impact the lives of

Speaker 2 everybody.

Speaker 3 I often hear people say that. I'm not exactly...
I mean, I know that the entire upper middle class of the United States is going to be unemployed. It sounds like that's bad.

Speaker 3 But I don't understand what the other effects are of AI.

Speaker 2 Look, it's too early to judge, frankly speaking, right now.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I hope that the AI really is used for the good causes. We hear a lot of doomsday scenarios.

Speaker 2 I talked to Musk about that.

Speaker 2 I had with him three video calls, and I did ask him about this question very explicitly. And he believes that 80 to 90% will be positive, but still,

Speaker 2 0% to 10% could be evilish. So we have to be very careful about that.
But I'm positive about AI because

Speaker 2 most people are really

Speaker 2 good, positive, and they'll utilize AI in any

Speaker 2 way to help the world society.

Speaker 3 Elon, when he came into X, when you invested, fired what percentage of the staff?

Speaker 2 When Musk took over, they had around 8,000 people, and he fired 6,500 people and went down to 1,500.

Speaker 2 And that's all documented, obviously.

Speaker 2 And that's one of the items where I'm really upset from the legacy media, where Audi said they cursed Musk and X for firing 6,500 people, and they worried about their social lives and how it disrupted their lives, which is fine.

Speaker 2 I mean, eventually they'll have jobs. But no one talked about the economical and financial impact of having firing 6,500 people on Twitter.
They saved $1,2 billion.

Speaker 2 And that saved the day because, you know, many advertisers did

Speaker 2 leave X. And there are two components of profitability, increased revenues or decrease

Speaker 2 expenses. So clearly revenues did go down, but expenses went down dramatically also.
So that broke even. So really that saved the day.

Speaker 2 Yes, 6,500 people were out and X was run more efficiently because I'm always in touch with Glinda. Yes.

Speaker 2 You know, the CEO of, and I'm always in touch with Jared, right-hand man of Musk, and I'm in touch with Musk, and I follow this very closely because I'm

Speaker 2 a private investor there. So we know what's going inside.
The companies performing a lot better with 1,500 people. So if Mr.
Musk duplicate that on what he's doing right now with the U.S.

Speaker 2 budget, and he can save hundreds of billion dollars, forget $2 trillion, maybe that's a bit too extreme, but he can save hundreds of billions of dollars, and you can have America reduce its budget deficit dramatically, let alone

Speaker 2 to have it balanced, that'd be a huge achievement. Huge achievement for Mr.
Musk personally and for the U.S. administration, Trump and the U.S.
people.

Speaker 3 You think he can do it?

Speaker 2 Look, he's a bulldozer. I know him very well.
And when I talk to him, the guy is just so straight to the point, you know, no nonsense at all.

Speaker 2 If there's anyone to do it, frankly speaking, it's Musk

Speaker 2 through the Dodge.

Speaker 3 So you know Elon Musk and you know Donald Trump. They're in close alliance now.
Elon is not a government official, obviously, but he is, you'd have to say, one of the top advisors.

Speaker 3 Can that partnership last?

Speaker 2 Look, they are both

Speaker 2 big figures, but

Speaker 2 Trump is president of the United States. Musk is

Speaker 2 the richest man in the world. He is one of the most powerful, if not most powerful man in the world.
You have to acknowledge that. That's a fact.
Yes.

Speaker 2 And I think for the sake of the United States, we want them to function very well. We want them to succeed very well.
You know, clearly each one has a huge ego for sure. And rightly so.

Speaker 2 They have to have an ego. Nothing wrong with that at all.
And I really sincerely hope that they can function together. Musk is a very pragmatic person, logical person, because he has a mission.

Speaker 2 He wants to cut the cost in the in the end

Speaker 2 in the U.S. system, in the U.S.
budget system, and he wants to really to balance the budget as much as he can. He told me that personally in my last phone call with him.

Speaker 2 And I believe he's given the tools and he's given the tools, frankly speaking. And I hope they're all successful, frankly speaking.
We all love the United States.

Speaker 2 We want America to have strong footings. You cannot be strong if you have all these budget deficits and trade deficits and that

Speaker 2 will make you glimp eventually.

Speaker 3 Western Europe seems like it's falling apart. Is that your impression?

Speaker 2 Western Nobel is aging,

Speaker 2 is sick.

Speaker 2 You know, you've seen most of the West Europe specifically,

Speaker 2 they have wrong policies,

Speaker 2 bureaucracy,

Speaker 2 low speed and movement. You know, we see Italy, for example, under Miloni, you know, she's she's not the star.
She's a conservative.

Speaker 2 I will not say right-wing Frank speaker. She's conservative.
No, no, it's very conservative. A pragmatic lady.
And look now, Italy is still

Speaker 2 the star in all Europe right now.

Speaker 3 But really, you know. Do you ever think you would live long enough

Speaker 3 to say Italy is now the star of Europe?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I really hope that Europe wakes up because West Europe is the alive United States. Of course.

Speaker 2 But really, look, the policies in England, UK, France, Germany, Spain, they are all really very much backwards. They need to wake up, frankly frankly speaking.

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, can a country run without energy?

Speaker 2 It's almost impossible.

Speaker 2 You cannot.

Speaker 2 Look at UK. I mean, look, the Labour

Speaker 2 took the rein of power from the Conservatives, and look where they are right now. They're exactly

Speaker 2 where the Conservatives were when they left the government a few months ago.

Speaker 3 So the UK is running out of natural gas.

Speaker 3 And that's true across Western Europe. These countries don't have enough energy to have first world economies.

Speaker 3 Will that change?

Speaker 3 Look,

Speaker 2 I'm not worried about that, frankly speaking, because

Speaker 2 they will always find a way to find gas, whether it's the United States or other parts.

Speaker 2 You see, the Arab world also did help a lot in supplying Western Europe with gas once they shut down the pipes from Russia.

Speaker 3 I think the Biden administration blew them up, right?

Speaker 3 We heard about that.

Speaker 3 Did you hear about that?

Speaker 2 I know that. I heard about it.

Speaker 3 That made the news.

Speaker 2 Unfortunately.

Speaker 3 Why would the Germans allow their allies in Washington to blow up their natural gas pipeline and not say anything about it?

Speaker 2 You said that, you know,

Speaker 2 you should answer that question.

Speaker 3 I have some theories.

Speaker 3 But you're saying that all their ideas are leading to their destruction.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, I think at least they're leading to their...

Speaker 2 They have so problems in West Europe. And unfortunately, they are not being acknowledged.
And you have seen a lot of right-wing parties, like in France, Le Pen, for example, coming very strongly. And

Speaker 2 she may

Speaker 2 well win the elections a few years from now. So all this causing the right-wing to come up very strongly,

Speaker 2 unless they wake up so fast and do some quick remedies to their economical policies and also their political system.

Speaker 3 It's just funny to hear you say that. So in Europe, you often say it's a battle between the native population and the Muslim immigrants.

Speaker 3 Here you are a Muslim with prayer beads in your hand saying you want more right-wing parties in Europe.

Speaker 2 Well, you know, I really am asking for it to be more

Speaker 2 centrist for sure. Look at, for example, Meloney.
When she ran, she won't run on a very right-wing policy. But when she took over, she just went to center.
That's true. You know,

Speaker 2 when you reign, when you take power, you are forced to be more pragmatic. She's a very pragmatic lady.
Yes. You know, and her policies are very logical and centrist.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 many policies of the left wing really failed in Europe. It did not work.
And I really hope that

Speaker 2 they go back to center and

Speaker 2 find really

Speaker 2 take major decisions to really jump start the process like Trump is doing Latin America.

Speaker 2 Trump is shaking up the whole U.S. political system.
Political system, economical system, financial system. Even now we have CS tariffs now.

Speaker 2 I mean, this is still, you know, we're in an uncharted territory. We don't know where they're going to be heading.

Speaker 2 We don't know if these tariffs are there to stay or they're there for negotiating tool to reach some conclusions with Canada and Mexico.

Speaker 3 Well, you've negotiated with Trump, against Trump, you know, to buy the plaza and his boat. What do you think?

Speaker 2 Well, when negotiated with him as a businessman, now he's the leader of the strongest country in the world, the United States of America.

Speaker 2 I think with Trump, if you come with him straight and not necessarily succumb to what he's asking for, but if you're logical and pragmatic with him, you can reach a conclusion, a deal. And very fast.

Speaker 3 How long did it take you to negotiate the purchase of the plaza?

Speaker 2 Less than a week.

Speaker 3 Less than a week. Yes.

Speaker 2 And it's bought. Less than a week.
Very swift, very fast.

Speaker 3 So you think the tariffs are just an an opening round in negotiation?

Speaker 2 Possibly. We don't know yet.
Possibly, possibly. But the twenty-five percent tariffs

Speaker 2 on both the northern neighbor and southern neighbor Canada and Mexico are pretty high. You've seen now how the auto industry was devastated today.
They're down more than 10, 15%.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 3 In trading, but the industry itself is. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2 It's too early to judge, Frank speaking. That's the trading, you know, because today they announced this, and today is Monday, they're going to announce, it was announced just now, and

Speaker 2 the instantaneous reflection on that was very negative, obviously, on the auto industry.

Speaker 3 So, you know, getting into a trade war with Canada and China, both of whom are totally dependent on the United States, they couldn't exist with the U.S., is different from doing that with China.

Speaker 3 How does that work?

Speaker 2 Well, look, China, I was reading yesterday that China, Xi Jinping, did not really answer, did not reply yet. This thing is time,

Speaker 2 he's composed, you know, it's more long-term.

Speaker 2 Look, China, you know,

Speaker 2 his dynasty has been 4,000 years old. So really, one year, one month,

Speaker 2 four years

Speaker 2 of tenure of any president, really,

Speaker 2 they're not too fast in replying. We have seen

Speaker 2 the Chinese government doesn't officially reply yet. We've seen Trudeau, we've seen Mexico replying already very aggressively in putting

Speaker 2 similar tariffs, especially in Canada. So we have not seen the reply of China yet.
But China for sure is different behemoth completely, is different all game.

Speaker 3 Do you believe the story about DeepSeek, their AI project that it was developed for under $6 million? And is that

Speaker 2 real?

Speaker 2 Look, we're invested with Musk, and Musk is the genius of our era. And clearly, he's very conservative in the way he spent now.
We put to them

Speaker 2 billions of dollars in having all these big mega centers being built in the United States. So really, $5.6 million for this DeepSeek.
I laid out this a little bit. And we're still very early

Speaker 2 part part of of of this developing story to see if it's true or not and to see whether they steal anything from open ai or uh or where the truth is exactly but but i you know i think you have to give it some more time to to see where the deep seek seek

Speaker 2 fit in the overall ai equation uh globally

Speaker 3 so there's I mean, by far the biggest real estate investments in the U.S. and probably around the world are in data centers

Speaker 3 for AI and other processing.

Speaker 3 Can those data centers run on windmills and batteries?

Speaker 2 Well, we have seen now many of those big companies now are trying to go other paths, you know, nuclear.

Speaker 3 Nuclear.

Speaker 2 So we are really very much in the early innings about all what's happening.

Speaker 2 But, you know, our bet, frankly speaking, is on Musk, on the AI, in the AI game. We invested with them in the first round and second round.
We're backing them all the way.

Speaker 2 And we've seen very strong alliance between XCI and X.

Speaker 2 There's a lot of

Speaker 2 relationship between them that's really causing a lot of positive for both companies. Yes.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 But for the past 15 years, the rest of us have been getting lectures about renewable energy, the green agenda,

Speaker 3 carbon zero.

Speaker 3 Basically, hydrocarbons are bad. Solar windmills are good.

Speaker 3 And the second it became clear that AI would need a lot more energy than projected, people like Larry Fink said, well, you know, maybe we look to, maybe it's a, you know, it's a whole bunch of different energy sources.

Speaker 3 Do you think the green agenda is over thanks to AI?

Speaker 2 Well, for sure, with the Trump election,

Speaker 2 the green evolution now has diminished a little bit. You know, it's not as

Speaker 2 being in the prime time, if I can use this term now. It's there, but I don't think it's going to be so much as being number one priority for the Trump administration.
You know that, I know that.

Speaker 3 It might be the number one priority.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know. Maybe number nine or ten minutes.

Speaker 3 But other, I mean, your peers in business, big investors have been pushing green energy projects, all subsidized by various governments.

Speaker 3 Do you think that will stop? Do you think we'll stop getting lectures about how windmills are the future?

Speaker 2 No, it will not stop, frankly speaking.

Speaker 2 You know, I know Bill Gates, you know, we are partners with him in many projects, and we have with him a project called the BEV, the Breakthrough Energy Venture, that is invested in hundreds of companies that are in

Speaker 2 non-carbon energy. And they're moving, frankly speaking, moving ahead.
So I think they'll still be there, but it will not be the same momentum and same oomph.

Speaker 3 Do you think the United States will change its relationship with Venezuela because of Venezuela's oil reserves?

Speaker 2 Well, we have seen the USMS yesterday being there. He met Madora

Speaker 2 in Venezuela.

Speaker 2 And I think it was very cooperative. He gave some hostages and he welcomed getting back all the immigrants.
So, he was very welcoming, and I'm sure Mr. Trump will love this.
So, we have to,

Speaker 2 it has to remain to be seen because Venezuela, frankly speaking, they have a lot of oil reserves, you know, more than 280 billion barrels.

Speaker 3 So, I think they have the deepest reserves in the world, proven reserves.

Speaker 2 Exactly, exactly. So, I don't know what's the ultimate policy for Mr.
Trump. Trump is a very sophisticated man, and I think the fact that his immediate went immediately to Venezuela, whereby

Speaker 2 you have no relationship between both countries. No.
And

Speaker 2 Menzoro was very welcoming. So that story

Speaker 2 you have to follow because it's a development story.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, we've spent the last, I don't know, 10 years trying to overthrow the Venezuelan government. Unsuccessfully.

Speaker 3 Quite unsuccessfully. But then in one day, all of a sudden Venezuela says, yeah, here are all your hostages.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, sure.

Speaker 3 And flies the American flag in Maduro's office.

Speaker 2 Like, what is this? Yeah, well, I mean, this is a era.

Speaker 2 Summary, quick summary.

Speaker 3 What would happen if the U.S. did some sort of big energy deal with Venezuela?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 look, at the end of the day, Trump is pragmatic. Trump also has good allies in Saudi Arabia, in the UAE, in Qatar.
We are always friends, you know. I mean, even if Venezuela is

Speaker 2 being blessed by the United States, it doesn't mean that they can go and produce two, three million barrels within months or weeks. So it's going to take them time to go back.

Speaker 2 All what they have has been obsolete. And frankly speaking,

Speaker 2 no new equipment has come to their

Speaker 2 even the capacity of Venezuela, they cannot produce more than 340 million barrels. So that's still okay.
It will not really impact the whole

Speaker 2 industry dramatically. It will impact it for sure, but not necessarily devastate it.

Speaker 3 But over time, and it takes a while to build the infrastructure necessary to efficiently extract it.

Speaker 3 I mean, over the next 10 years, you could see cheaper oil prices as a result of that, right?

Speaker 2 Well, for sure. I mean, that's why Saudi Arabia is transitioning from being an oil-based

Speaker 2 country into being a diversified economy. So that's why we're investing heavily in tourism.
We're investing heavily into new minerals. We're investing into other alternatives to oil.

Speaker 2 We are diversifying our economy in many areas.

Speaker 2 So, really, when the price of oil does sink to below $70 or $60, we have other alternatives really to withstand the heat and withstand the pressure of having less oil, less price of oil.

Speaker 3 It's just funny that, you know, it was a year ago, if you talk to any big investor,

Speaker 3 at least in public, they would say, no, no, no, the future is not more drilling for oil. The future is more windmills and solar panels.

Speaker 3 But you are saying actually the future sounds like it's more drilling for oil.

Speaker 2 Well, what I'm saying is a Trump, you know, drill, baby, drill. You know, I mean, Trump wants the price of oil to go down.

Speaker 2 Yeah, clearly. But also, Trump also has his eye on the fracking United States because

Speaker 2 the average cost to produce a barrel of fracking oil is also in the 50s to 60s also. So he doesn't want that also to

Speaker 2 go off.

Speaker 2 So there's a balance here to what Mr. Trump can do, obviously.

Speaker 3 You can put your own domestic extractors out of business.

Speaker 2 Exactly. You don't do that.
So you want to balance it now. Clearly, Trump came with

Speaker 2 a lot of momentum.

Speaker 2 But at the end of the day, when he has discussions with Saudi Arabia and with other OPEC countries, they will know that also Saudi Arabia wants the interests of the consumers to be taken into consideration.

Speaker 3 Right. There are a lot of competing interests on the question of price per barrel.
What do you think the

Speaker 3 kind of right number balancing all that is?

Speaker 2 It's very difficult to judge this. Really, it all depends on supply and demand, frankly speaking.

Speaker 2 And you see, China, China also has a big role in that. And you see, the economy of China right now is moving in the 5%, 6% growth direction every year.
So there are a lot of factors that

Speaker 2 contribute into this whole big equation.

Speaker 3 Do you think, I know that obviously Donald Trump wants it in the 60s. Do you think we'll see it there

Speaker 3 per barrel?

Speaker 2 I hope not, frankly speaking, because I have this of Saudi Arabia. Yes.
You know, I don't want to be 60, but I think long term, there's no doubt that the price of oil is heading

Speaker 2 not necessarily to the 100, but at least to where it is now, 670, 80.

Speaker 3 Okay, you think it'll stay there?

Speaker 2 I think so.

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Speaker 3 A big bet on Russian energy right after the war in Ukraine started.

Speaker 3 2022, I think. Yes.

Speaker 3 With Luke Oil, Gazprom, Rustna. I think those three.
Correct. Maybe.

Speaker 2 Invested in these three companies.

Speaker 3 How'd you do?

Speaker 2 We did well, frankly speaking.

Speaker 2 We did sell part of it

Speaker 2 with some small profit. And now we still have some stake there.

Speaker 3 So the war starts in Ukraine and everyone's running away from Russia and Russian energy. The world is

Speaker 3 reorienting away from hydrocarbons in general. And you swoop in and make a huge bet.
on traditional Russian energy. Why did you do that?

Speaker 2 This was part of our investment philosophy and policy.

Speaker 2 We invested in so many companies that year in Western Europe, United States, and these three Russian companies were among them.

Speaker 3 Right, but other people were not doing that. Why did you do that?

Speaker 2 We are sometimes contrarian and successfully so.

Speaker 3 If you were to pick, apart from AI and energy, like another two or three industries that you think are a good bet moving forward. Technology.
What kind?

Speaker 2 Well, look, we are invested very heavily invested in technology. For example, in China, we are in many companies like like Baidu, Alibaba,

Speaker 2 Tencent, DD.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 Baidu is very heavily involved also in artificial intelligence. In America, we are also invested in Wear Meta, WearX, XEI,

Speaker 2 in Snapchat. We are in many companies also in America.
So, we have a diversified portfolio in technology. We are also in hospitality, you know, in Four Seasons and Accor.

Speaker 2 We have a very diversified portfolio.

Speaker 3 So, you're in Alibaba. 10 years ago, a little over 10 years ago, Jack Ma was a very famous person in the United States.
He was doing his roadshow with J.P. Morgan.
Everyone loved Jack Ma.

Speaker 3 Company gets, you know, one of the biggest market caps in the world. And then Jack Ma disappears.
Whatever happened to Jack Ma?

Speaker 2 You know, I know Jack Ma very well. That you do.
Yeah, I used to meet him always at the Microsoft meeting with Bill Gates.

Speaker 2 You know, I think, you know, Jack Ma really, you know,

Speaker 2 you know, China look is a centralized political system.

Speaker 2 And I think he went a bit too far, you know, with the, I'm being very frank with you, he went a bit too far in his being outspoken against the regime and against the communist system.

Speaker 2 So he was just told just to cool it down a little bit. And I think that's what happened.
He's now in a cooling down period.

Speaker 3 He's in a cooling down.

Speaker 3 Are his whereabouts known?

Speaker 2 No, he's settling between Japan and China.

Speaker 2 He's coming in our public a little bit right now, but he's not as high profile as before.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, he's not.

Speaker 3 The United States has a big military footprint in East Asia, mostly in Korea and Japan, but also other countries. Can that continue?

Speaker 2 Well, look, as I told you, America is a big force to be reckoned with.

Speaker 2 America is an empire. Now, we don't call it empires these days, but America is an empire.
You know,

Speaker 2 you have hegemony on the whole world, and America is a force to be listened to too.

Speaker 2 So I think these bases are very important to stay there to counter

Speaker 2 what's going on with China also. Yes.
So I know America now is being more somehow a bit isolationist in its approach.

Speaker 2 But you know, I think once Trump gets more in the second term, he will acknowledge the fact that America needs to have

Speaker 2 this presence in all these areas to keep the strength of America consolidated.

Speaker 3 So you say that as a big investor in Chinese companies, you want to see American troops in Asia stay there.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean,

Speaker 2 not necessarily against China, but

Speaker 2 you have a crazy guy in North Korea.

Speaker 3 Who's really a proxy for China, though?

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, but you know, it's still easy, Rose Cannon also. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 he does take orders from China and somehow from Russia, but also he's a very independent guy and Rus Cannon, also.

Speaker 3 Do you know him?

Speaker 2 No, I don't know him.

Speaker 3 You have no North Korean investments at all?

Speaker 2 No, North Korean at all. If I'm going to go there, I'll ask Trump to introduce me to him.
He's his friend.

Speaker 2 It was a bold move from President Trump to meet him.

Speaker 3 Oh, I was there.

Speaker 2 It was a bold move.

Speaker 3 There's no doubt about it. And he took a lot of criticism.
I mean,

Speaker 3 what do you, since you're from the Middle East,

Speaker 3 I would say your mother was Lebanese, you're related to people in power in a bunch of different countries. It's very common here for people, for adversaries to meet and talk.

Speaker 3 In the West, in the last couple decades, the idea has been, if we disagree with you, we're not talking to you. What do you think of that?

Speaker 2 No, I am, frankly speaking, I am very much supporting what Trump does here to talk to his adversaries. I think it's a plus.

Speaker 2 I mean, for example, now we hear that Trump is going to open communication with Putin on Ukraine. I think I'm for it, frankly speaking.

Speaker 2 You know, unless you engage, how can you reach a conclusion, an agreement, or arrangement? I am for it, frankly. I think that's very bold from him to meet the leader of North Kore of North Korea.

Speaker 3 Yes. How would you describe Putin?

Speaker 2 Well, Putin is, you know, is a very smart man and he calculates very well well his moves.

Speaker 2 He's a very smart guy and

Speaker 2 clearly

Speaker 2 one of the things he said,

Speaker 2 he feels sorry for the day that the Soviet Union disintegrated into all these 15 republics. So he has this empire mentality in him.

Speaker 2 It's in him. It's in his mind for sure.
He still craves

Speaker 2 for the Soviet Union Empire and the Tsarist Empire that used to be there before the revolution happened in 1917. Yes.

Speaker 3 Everyone wants an empire.

Speaker 3 Do you think China wants an empire?

Speaker 2 Look, China, I think, you know, they have

Speaker 2 1.3 billion people. I think the first priority really is to control their domestic situation and have growth.
Because look, China has a big problem. Look, you have

Speaker 2 a very

Speaker 2 open,

Speaker 2 capitalistic economical system in China. Yet, the political system system is very centralized, authoritarian, and communist, obviously.
Now, these two

Speaker 2 don't go well together. So, the question now, until when

Speaker 2 these two could happen and continue.

Speaker 2 China is very concerned about this internal situation, obviously, and they want to have this growth happening to really to

Speaker 2 have its people migrate from being the poor level to being middle class.

Speaker 2 So, I think that's the main worry, frankly, being Russia for the foreseeable future.

Speaker 3 But couldn't you say that about a lot of countries? Like, if you had a monarchy

Speaker 3 that was liberalizing its economy and opening itself to the world, had a state religion, had a thousand-year-old culture, wouldn't you be worried? I mean, how would that work?

Speaker 3 How could you maintain political control?

Speaker 2 Look, I think you're alluding to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region.

Speaker 2 Which is fine. Which is fine.
Nothing going on. Look, look, we talk very free and openly.

Speaker 2 Look, Saudi Arabia has legitimacy. And I just said in one of the interviews

Speaker 2 few weeks ago, look at the six monarchies in the Arab world. Yes.
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, UE, Oman, Kuwait. These six monarchies.
Add to them Morocco. Add to it, Jordan.

Speaker 2 These are eight monarchies. Look how, I'm not saying great, how good they're doing, how stable they are.
That is true. How legitimate they are.
Look at Jordan. Look at the neighborhood of Jordan.

Speaker 2 around it. Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Israel, and Hamas.
And look how stable it is right now. Clearly, it's still a very difficult situation there.

Speaker 2 Eight monarchies, compare them with the other 14 republics. And Arab, there are 22, obviously.

Speaker 2 There's no comparison between them. So we have legitimacy here when the monarch is headed by Saudi Arabia and the other seven countries.

Speaker 3 I mean, of course, I disagree with you as an American, but I agree with you as a traveler. I mean, what you're saying is obviously true.

Speaker 3 But in our system, legitimacy comes from the consent of the governed. Our leaders are legitimate because we vote for them.

Speaker 3 No one votes for your crown prince, but it's also true that your country is thriving and that the other five monarchs, the other seven monarchies you mentioned, are

Speaker 3 doing well relative to the Republic. So

Speaker 3 why do you think that's true?

Speaker 2 If you go to the public here

Speaker 2 and rate Prince Mohammed bin Salman,

Speaker 2 he will get 70 to 80%, if not 90%, approval rating. I think that's true.
To be honest with you, Holocaust. Yeah, I believe that.
And this says it all, frankly speaking.

Speaker 2 People would like to get stability, wants continuity,

Speaker 2 wants to be sure that the economy is doing well. People are fed up from all these wars and all these turmoils, and they see what's happening to

Speaker 2 the neighborhood. We've seen what's happening in, for example, in our Gulf region,

Speaker 2 we see what's happening in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen. We don't want all that.
We don't want all that. So, really, frankly speaking, we are a very happy country here.

Speaker 2 All the Saudis are very happy with what's going on. Crown Prince is very popular.
King Salman is beloved by everybody here. So, frankly speaking, forget the elections.
We're happy.

Speaker 3 We're okay.

Speaker 3 Well, I disagree with you in theory, but agree with you in practice, because it's just what you're saying is just true. It's a fact.
I don't want it to be a fact, but it is a fact. So what is that?

Speaker 3 I mean, is the, I mean, democracy is just a kind of brief interlude in all human history. It's a pretty new thing.

Speaker 3 I mean, do you think it has a future?

Speaker 2 What do you mean? By democracy, I mean, in our region. Well, if you're saying, I don't know.

Speaker 3 I mean, you're saying that all the republics in your region are struggling, all the monarchies are thriving. And that is roughly speaking true.
There are other factors.

Speaker 2 We have seen what happened to the so-called bush democracy in Iraq. We have seen what happened there.
That how could this whole thing collapse completely? You know, Iraq is a republic, correct?

Speaker 2 And we had the elections there, and we see the results. We don't want that confusion and chaos.
Look, we have monarchies. We're happy with them.
People are happy.

Speaker 2 That's what counts for us, to be honest with you.

Speaker 2 With all respect to Americans, with all respect to Tucker Carlson, my friend, you know, we're happy with our systems and we're going to continue with it

Speaker 3 uh what do you what is crypto exactly

Speaker 2 well crypto you know is is a new system you know of uh a currency system that you know i i don't buy frankly speaking i you know i we're not invest in crypto at all and uh i uh i don't think it's for us at all but it's there it's facts right now uh it's a huge part of the i understand the fastest growing sector is the american economy But still, you know, I'm not a believer in that at all.

Speaker 2 Why? I will not invest there in crypto. You know, I just, it's not regulated well.
It is, you know,

Speaker 2 many U.S.

Speaker 2 big businessmen

Speaker 2 do agree with me on that subject. You know, I don't understand it very well.
And it's a new form of currency that is really

Speaker 2 confusing for me and complicated. And I don't understand it.

Speaker 3 Is it a currency or is it

Speaker 2 a form of payment?

Speaker 3 That's what it was supposed to be. But from what I can tell, it's like an invest, it's something that you invest in.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's kind of imaginary goal.

Speaker 2 We have so many other investments to the world is full investments and better investments to invest in. And we never invested in crypto.
And we're never going to invest in crypto.

Speaker 3 You're never going to invest in crypto.

Speaker 3 Then why are the I mean, the banks, big banks in the United States. All your friends.
They're all in crypto.

Speaker 2 Some of them are forced to. I mean, even J.B.
Morgan, that never believed in that. Now they're forced to.
I mean, sometimes you have facts that you have to go with. But, you know,

Speaker 2 not necessarily with full conviction, but they are forced to go with it, unfortunately. Why are they forced? Well, look, many other banks are doing it.
So they are forced for the clients.

Speaker 2 So many, many clients believe in crypto. Many clients in the world believe in crypto.
And so they have to reflect the needs and the wishes of their own clients. So they go with it reluctantly.

Speaker 3 Huh. I mean, if you have enough assets invested in crypto, at some point it becomes kind of dangerous, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 Sure, definitely.

Speaker 2 I believe it could be a time bomb waiting to explode. I could be wrong, but that's my own belief.
And that's the belief of the head of

Speaker 2 Jim Morgan, also, Jamie Diamond.

Speaker 3 You think he still thinks that?

Speaker 2 He thinks that. And actually, when he was in

Speaker 2 Davos, they asked him a question. He refused to comment on it completely.
I saw his interview. He declined to comment on it because he's fed up from saying it's bad, bad, bad, bad.

Speaker 3 So he's just giving up and not commenting.

Speaker 2 Exactly. That's what's happening.

Speaker 3 Huh.

Speaker 3 Are any other countries in this region embracing crypto?

Speaker 2 Yeah, there are some countries, you you know,

Speaker 2 some,

Speaker 2 but not heavily, not heavily. What about gold? No, gold.
Gold is, you know,

Speaker 2 many countries have gold as one of their investments, for sure, yes.

Speaker 2 Are you an investor in gold? No, no, but we do have some small portfolio of gold, but nothing major, nothing major, no.

Speaker 3 Nothing major. Do you expect it to go much higher?

Speaker 2 Well, you know, I mean,

Speaker 2 it goes up and down like

Speaker 2 based on supply and demand, you know. But to us, really, it's not a priority, you know,

Speaker 2 gold. We're not very heavily invested in gold.

Speaker 3 For your country, for Saudi Arabia, you've opened it up very dramatically, both physically opened it up. You're issuing visas to everybody, which you were not doing ever,

Speaker 3 but you've opened it up socially, women in the workforce,

Speaker 3 getting rid of guardianship, women driving most famously.

Speaker 3 What are the reforms, the liberalizations that you wouldn't do here? Where will you draw the line?

Speaker 3 Look,

Speaker 2 Saudi Arabia opened a lot since 1950,

Speaker 2 since 2015 when King Salman took over and Prince Mohammed bin Salman

Speaker 2 got in charge of the local situation and we opened up a lot. And I'm very happy with this complete liberalization of the economy,

Speaker 2 liberalization socially, whereby women became incorporated in the society,

Speaker 2 equal opportunity, women can drive now.

Speaker 2 Basically

Speaker 2 it's a normalization of the woman incorporation into the society.

Speaker 2 So Prince Muhammad just

Speaker 2 made a woman equal to two men, frankly speaking. It was a big achievement for us because for many years before that we were deprived of that.

Speaker 2 And I called for that many years ago and thanks God happened. So really

Speaker 2 there's no limit to where we can go, but obviously,

Speaker 2 you know, no one wants to go beyond the limit. You know, it's just like America.
You know, if you do you do everything within the law, within the legal system, it's acceptable.

Speaker 3 That's what's happening here.

Speaker 2 You know, our country became normal. We normalized the situation with all our countries in the world.

Speaker 3 Well, normal in the West is, you know, well, alcohol for one thing, legalized marijuana, transgender teachers, transgender admirals.

Speaker 3 I mean, are there points where you say we don't want that?

Speaker 2 No, look, frankly speaking, I'm very conservative. You know, I lived in America.
You know, I'm anti-alcohol. And I'm very happy that my country has no alcohol, frankly speaking.

Speaker 2 And I don't mind that at all.

Speaker 2 I'm very liberal man socially, yet I'm very conservative

Speaker 2 when it comes to, for example, using drugs or alcohol. I'm very much against that.
So these are off the limits for us, for sure. And we will not accept that in Southern Asia.

Speaker 3 You can have tourism without alcohol.

Speaker 2 It's happening already.

Speaker 2 That's true. It's happening already, to be honest with you.
And if it's happening already, so it's been tested already right now.

Speaker 2 So, frankly speaking, the answer is yes, it's possible, and it's happening.

Speaker 3 And do you think they'll stick with it? The government will stay?

Speaker 2 Well, you know, I think this is for the Saudi government to decide. Of course, I'm not a government official.

Speaker 2 So far, so good. But it's for the government to decide what are the next steps on that front.

Speaker 3 So, in our country, we had prohibition of alcohol for

Speaker 3 14 years. Yes.

Speaker 3 And it is described to everybody. I mean, universally believed to be a massive failure.
I don't know if that's actually true, but that's how history has recorded it.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 that's, I mean, you think it's a success here.

Speaker 2 Why do you

Speaker 2 look?

Speaker 2 Look, Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country, and religion is very an integral part of our society. Yes.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 not having alcohol here is not really something that people are missing a lot. You know, clearly, when you have a Westerner come here, for sure, he would like to have some alcohol.

Speaker 2 I mean, there is no need to deny that, obviously. But I think to have an experience in Saudi Saudi Arabia without alcohol is something to be tried.
But then today

Speaker 2 it's the government, Saudi government, to decide if this is a policy to continue or not to continue. And it's going to continue in certain areas.

Speaker 2 You know, you've been to the Red Sea, I think. Yes.
In certain areas, if you would like to have this

Speaker 2 to be a permit or not. It's not for me.
But I'm willing to live with both scenarios.

Speaker 3 It's just interesting because it's one of the last pretty sober societies in the world.

Speaker 3 I mean, and you've lived in a number of places. What are the differences?

Speaker 2 It's good to be sober. Yeah, it is good to be sober.
It's nice to be sober.

Speaker 2 I'll quote you for that.

Speaker 2 Beautiful to be sober. Love it.

Speaker 2 You're something else, Takara.

Speaker 3 Prince William, thank you very much for taking all this time.

Speaker 2 Pleasure.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

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