Saudi Arabia’s Richest Man Prince Alwaleed bin Talal on Trump’s Tariffs, DeepSeek, Israel, and Iran

Prince Lee, thank you very much.

The reason I've been so anxious to talk to you is because as someone who's been investing more successfully than almost anyone around the world for 45 years,

I think you've got a pretty good handle of what's going on in the world.

Are you hopeful right now in this moment?

Let's just start.

Biggest possible picture.

Yes, I'm positive.

I'm hopeful.

With the Trump administration coming very forcefully yes uh with clear vision about where the world should be heading i'm optimistic caution optimistic but it's going to take some time because the legacy that trump had is a big one yes on foreign policy domestic policy debt immigration we will talk about all these things obviously today but the legacy is a big one. Yes.
On foreign policy, domestic policy, debt, immigration, we will talk about all these things obviously today, but the legacy is so big and we've seen that the first week of Trump or now the first 10 days is coming very strongly.

And I really hope that this momentum stays and have a positive effect on the international community

as much as it will have a good impact on the domestic race policy. When Trump was elected in November, the world was really on the cusp of two big conflicts that could potentially get much bigger in Eastern Europe and in this region.
Do you think he can successfully resolve those conflicts? Look, we all know Netanyahu is going to meet him tomorrow. Yes.
And I really hope that President Trump is very forceful in imposing or at least forcing Israel to have a peaceful resolution to this Palestinian issue that's been going on since the late 1940s. It's about time to have a final solution

for the Palestinian cause

to stop all those terrorist acts

that are really unwanted

like the one that happened in October.

And obviously, you're alluding to the Ukraine war.

Also, it's about time to have this war end,

a useless war between Russia and Ukraine

that caused hundreds of thousands of people

to die from both sides, civilians and otherwise. What's the solution to the problem in the Middle East? Look, the stated official position of Saudi Arabia, which I really support, of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who was announced on your ex-Channel Fox, he said publicly that we are having discussions with Israel to acknowledge each other.

But as a good pro quo, we need a Palestinian state.

We need to have the rights of the Palestinians acknowledged. And we need to have Palestine independent and have a capital city, East Jerusalem.
So if these things are met, I think Saudi Arabia is more than ready to have diplomatic relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, as Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman announced a few months ago. From an outsider's perspective, Saudi Arabia does not have official diplomatic relations with Israel, but it's certainly aligned with Israel against Iran.
That's the way it looks from outside. Do you think it's fair to say? Oh, look, I mean, it's very easy to get against Iran, aligned against Iran.
Iran is, you know, is a nation based dogmatically on terroristic ideas. You know, we have seen how every country that Iran goes to, you have turmoil.
Look at Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Yemen, Sudan, all those countries, what's common among them. You have the Iranian infiltration in them.
So clearly it's not difficult at all to be in alliance with any country against Iran. Because Iran always plants the seeds of trouble, chaos, and confusion wherever they are.

So that's the view of Israel too, as you know.

Yes, exactly.

So you have that big perspective in common with the Israeli government despite your differences.

So there's been progress, I would say, between Saudi Arabia and Israel,

but I don't think there's been any progress on the prospect of a Palestinian state.

People have been saying that for, you know, well, certainly since 1967, but it feels like we're farther from that. We are very far, of course, after what happened in Gaza.
But I think with a strong leadership from the United States and with the effectiveness that the United States could really have in the West Bank with the Palestinian authorities, if they can have these people being more effective and more dynamic and inject some fluidity and some power and influence in them, there could really be the power to be reckoned with. So Israel could have to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority and hopefully

that they can have

a control over

what's happening in Gaza also.

How closely are

people in the Arab world following

what's happening there?

Oh, for sure. The Arab world has been following

very closely the destruction

that happened in Gaza. I mean, for sure, a terrorist world has been following very closely the destruction that happened in Gaza.

I mean, for sure, a terrorist attack did happen there in October.

But the disproportionate and the complete disproportionality of the Israeli attack on Gaza

that wiped out the whole northern part of Gaza was really unwarranted.

You know, hospitals, schools, cities, universities, they were all demolished completely. So yes, we're following them very closely, for sure.
Do people here hold the United States responsible for that? I'm not sure at all that they hold the United States. I mean, some do that and they capitalize on the very positive and strong alliance between the United States and Israel.

But realistically speaking, what happened there really was really Israeli-based. Clearly, the United States did support that.
But we have seen also, even the Biden administration, and even Trump, I'm not sure he was very much happy with what happened there at all. But at the end of the day, what happened did happen.
And now we need to see how we can put this behind us and open a new chapter in the Middle East, clearly with the Syrian regime neutralized and having a new, I'll not say pro-Western regime, but at least not anti-American regime in Syria with Hamas, hopefully demolished completely. And more importantly,, Hezbollah being almost neutralized in Lebanon.
These are very, very, big pluses for the inducement to have a peaceful solution for the Palestinian cause. You know Donald Trump well.
I know him a long time ago, from the time we bought from him the Plaza Hotel, and we also bought from him his Trump Princess yacht that I still have. How did you wind up with Donald Trump's yacht? Not many people can say that.
Not many people have Donald Trump's yacht, but you do. How did you get it? I mean, how did that happen? Yeah, we bought it, I think, you know, in the late 80s.
And Trump did take possession of it, and he renovated it. And I think he reached a stage where he, not really want to have it anymore, so we did buy it from him.
What was your experience with Trump? What's he like? Oh, I mean, look, with Trump, I think if you're straight with him, you get a straight answer. We had very good dealing with President Trump when he was a businessman, whether during the purchase of the plaza hotel from him or buying his Trump princess yacht.
So you were not anti-Trump? Oh, no, no. We can't be anti-Trump.
You know, because we are pro-America. We have to be pro-Trump, especially with the new policies that he's taking right now.
You know, I'm very much conservative, socially speaking. Yes.
And all his policies right now in being anti-walk, being anti-left wing, being anti all those crazy things that's happening on the left. We are for sure pro-Trump on these matters.
And also all his policies, economical policies that in looking after the eradication of the U.S. deficit, these are all conservative policies that we support.
Look, I lived in America. I graduated from the West Coast, you know, from University in California, and I finished my master's in the East Coast in America.
So we all love America. We want America to be strong.
What did you think over the last eight years as you watched the woke, the sexual politics in the United States? I mean, it went just too far, too much, you know, really.

And it's about time for America to get a logical person,

a pragmatic person like Trump.

I know some policies are extreme to some people, but his social policies, being anti-woke,

being anti-left-wing completely, being too liberal.

I mean, these are really policies that, you know, this is illogical. They are, you know, look, I'm a religious person.
You know, America is still a very conservative country. And one of the main ingredients of the success of Trump in the last election was really his social policies.
Many people in America believe that America went too much to the left. So I think getting back America to the center, at least to the center, not necessarily to the right, to the center, that in itself is a big achievement for America.
So you hear that in countries around the world. We admire the United States.
The entire leadership of most of the world went to college in the United States. Yes.
How did people in this region and other countries visit feel about seeing men dressed as women at the White House and all that stuff? Were they? It's crazy. It's nonsense.
It's nonsense. And this transgender idea right now, I mean, having the military, all those transgender people, you know, and toilets, you know, having being mixed and,, you know, having, for example, a male who was transferring the lady

to go and compete into women's sports.

It's too much.

It's going too far.

It's just too much.

I mean, we reached a stage in America.

If you're not woke, I mean, you are crazy or you are anti-establishment.

I mean, it's too much.

It's going too far.

So I think what Trump is doing right now is at least moving to the center. You know, we are not against LBGTQ, even the plus, whatever the plus means.
What is the plus? That's the scary part. I would rather not talk about it.
You'd rather not talk about the plus? I would rather not talk about it. That's very scary.
Yeah, I do. The plus.
LBGTQ, you understand. But the plus, that's, you know, we can have another interview for that.
Let put this aside i'm comfortable with that thank you very much so that i mean you must have been confused watching that this is a country you went to school and you know well yeah i lived in america and when i was in america i know i mean you have left wing right wing that's fine yes but to go that much to the left and have this work movement no it went too far look america leads the world I understand there are, you know, China wants to be there, India wants to be there, the Europeans want to be there. At the end of the day, America is leading the world, whether you like it or not.
No matter how isolationist policies are adopted in America, America will still lead the world for many years to come. Yes.
Politically, economically, financially, in all cases. So we want America to lead the right way.
You cannot lead the world with this woke movement. You cannot.
We will not accept that. You're one of the biggest media investors in the world and have been, I worked for a company, I think you were the biggest outside investor, I think, in News Corp, Fox News.
And you've got investments in a million different media companies. Many of those media companies went way to the left.
What did you think of that as a shareholder? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, our main investment was with Fox, frankly speaking, and News Corp, with Murdoch.
Murdoch was always, you know, mainstream to the right a little bit, obviously. So we did have a lot of other investments, small ones, but they were all devastated a long time ago.
But our main investment in all media, legacy media, was Murdoch. And we sold out, you know, a year before he merged his entities with Disney.
Yeah. Yes.
So no, the media in America went too much to the left. And most of them.
The only remaining soldier, frankly speaking, who really withstood the heat is the Murdoch Empire. Whether it's Fox, New York Post, Worsi Journal, and Fox, they are all, you know, sent to the right.
So you divested from Fox, from News Corp, and then you made a huge investment in X under Elon. Exactly.
Why'd you do that? Yeah. Most of our investments now went to X and XAI.
Obviously, they were with Musk. Now, I call X really is the new media, frankly speaking.
X. That's why we invested.
And with Mr. Musk, I think he's a big force to be reckoned with, frankly speaking.
And we were second big shareholder in X and XAI.

So the sale of X was closely watched by everybody around the world.

He wound up buying the company at what seemed like twice its actual value.

And people made fun of him.

Where is it now, would you say?

On our books, we have two investments. We have Kingdom Holding, which I share.
Yes. And I have my private investments.
So we have with Musk around $3 billion investments. In our books, it's valued more than 50% more.
Clearly, as for X, we never devalued it. We, you know, some entities did devalue it by 30%, 40%, 50%.
We never devalued it. Clearly, now after the election of President Trump and after the strong alliance between Musk and President Trump, we've seen the market having revalue upwards X dramatically, at least to its par value at the $44 billion that they paid for it.
What do you think its actual value is? I believe the actual value is more than double, frankly speaking. More than double the $44 billion he paid.
Exactly, and it's going to happen right now because videos are going to come, and you know now, pay is going to come into it. You know, they're going to pay X.
It's going to happen right now in the first quarter. So many things are going to happen to X to really to have as the main hub and anchor for many things around it.
So, but as a political and social force, is there a more powerful media organization? As it stands today, I believe X is really number one. We've seen how Meta tried to have another company, Thread, but it didn't take off.
Why? Look, I think X really began very forcefully and strongly, and freedom of speech was there, was open, you know, clearly whenever it was against X, freedom of speech and freedom of speech was there, it was open, you know, clearly whenever it was against X,

freedom of speech and freedom of expression

without much fact-checking,

that gave it the forum

to be the anchor

of the new media in the world.

And you see right now,

Meta is moving the X model.

As I told you

when I just met you off the record

a minute ago, that Meta now is being exercised. It's being like X right now.
And this helps X reaching its potential of being fully valued at $44 billion and more. So all the advertisers that really so-called fled or left X are coming back right now because the alternative is doing exactly what X used to do.
Right. So you think that Elon Musk has had a big effect on Mark Zuckerberg? There's no doubt because we have seen now Mark Zuckerberg and Meta is moving to the X model.
Not only that, you know, not only operationally, but you have seen just lately that that Meta is going to move this so-called administrative headquarters from Delaware to Texas. So really Musk and X being followed across the board.
So you think Zuckerberg's just kind of trailing behind Elon Musk doing what he does? Well, you know, I look, Musk is very close to the leader of the whole world, President Trump. And no one wants, no businessman,

whether it is Max Zuckerberg or Mr. Bezos

or the Google head,

want Musk to be the only man

who has the ear of President Trump.

They all want to have at least a small piece of the pie.

Yes.

And that's what's happening, basically.

But what's interesting, clearly,

but what's interesting is that they didn't want it the first time. All these businessmen, smartest, most powerful in the world, made a bet in 2016 that opposing Trump would pay off for them.
Why do you think they did that? It was a wrong bet. Very bluntly speaking.
It was a wrong bet. Trump came back in a major upset.
He must have scared the hell out of them. When he got elected, mean, I mean, no one expected Trump to come back, frankly speaking.
And frankly speaking, the Democrats played a very big mistake. They custom made, you know, I talk as an independent.
I'm a Saudi. I'm a royalist, neither Democrat or Republican.
You know, I love America. They clearly custom made those lawsuits against them to be an election year.
And I understand this very delicate. Not many people in America could speak this language freely, but they custom made it to be an election year.
And that backfired, frankly speaking, and helped Trump being elected. Yes.
And they were custom made to be. I mean, why you waited three years after Trump left and they all came, these lawsuits in the last one year of the Biden era.
I was too much. So you didn't see that as the equal application of the law? Come on, give me a break.
That's very clear. I lived in America.
I know America very well. There's too much politics.
That's one of the attributing reasons that caused Trump to win. The American public rejected these lawsuits and all those so-called indictments or whatever they are.
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www.merchantspaymentscoalition.com Mark Zuckerberg, and you spent $400 million to beat Trump in 2020. And all of a sudden, he rises from the grave.
How do you feel? Terrified, right? Well, at least, you know, to acknowledge your mistake, and correct it is better than continuing with your mistake. Right.
And to be honest with you, you know, I'm invested in meta also. Smaller scale, not like X, but I'm invested in X.
And he's right. Look at the share price.
Reflecting the share price. You've invested in XAI.
What do you envision the world looks like after in 10 years, thanks to AI?

Well, no doubt that artificial intelligence

is going to play a big role in having evolution

in the social industry, in the economics,

politics, economics, finance, etc.

So AI is just beginning.

We are in the first inning right now.

Yes.

And there's no doubt that AI,

artificial intelligence,

will really impact the lives of everybody. I often hear people say that.
I'm not exactly, I mean, I know that like the entire upper middle class of the United States is going to be unemployed. It sounds like.
That's bad. But I don't, I don't understand what the other effects are of AI.
Look, it's too early to judge, frankly speaking, right now. Yes.
But I hope that the AI really is used, you know, for the good causes. We hear a lot of doomsday scenarios.
You know, I talked to Musk about that, you know. I had with him three video calls and I did ask him about this question very explicitly.
And, you know, he believes that, you know, 80 to 90% will be positive, but still, you know, 0 to 10% could be evil-ish. So we have to be very careful about that.
But I'm positive about AI because most people are really good, positive, and they'll utilize AI in a way to help the world society. Elon, when he came into X, when you invested, fired what percentage of the staff? When Musk took over they had around 8,000 people and he fired 6,500 people and went down to 1,500 and that's all documented obviously and that's one of the items where I'm really upset from the legacy media where they said they cursed Musk and X for firing 6,500 people.
And they worried about their social lives and how it disrupted their lives, which is fine. I mean, eventually they'll have jobs, but no one talked about the economical and financial impact of having firing 6,500 people on Twitter.
They saved more than $2 billion. And that saved the day because many advertisers did leave X.
And there are two components of profitability, increased revenues or decreased expenses. So clear revenues did go down, but expenses went down dramatically also.
So that broke even. So really that saved the day.
Yes, 6,500 people were out and X was running more efficiently because I'm always in touch with Glinda, you know, the CEO of, and I always in touch with Jared, right-hand man of Musk, and I'm in touch with Musk and I follow this very closely because I'm, you know, a private investor there. So we know what's going inside.
The companies are forming a lot better with 1,500 people. So if Mr.
Musk duplicate that

on what he's doing right now with the U.S. budget

and he can save hundreds of billions of dollars,

forget two, three dollars, maybe that's a bit too extreme,

but he can save hundreds of billions of dollars.

And you can have America reduce its budget deficit dramatically,

let alone to have it balanced.

That is a huge achievement.

Huge achievement for Mr. Musk personally and for the U.S.
administration, Trump and the U.S. people.
You think he can do it? Look, he's a bulldozer. I know him very well.
When I talk to him, the guy is just so straight to the point, you know, no nonsense at all. If there's anyone to do it, frankly speaking, it's Musk through the dodge.
So you know Elon Musk and you know Donald Trump. They're in close alliance now.
Elon is not a government official, obviously, but he is, you'd have to say, one of the top advisors. Can that partnership last? Look, they are both big figures, but Trump is President of the United States.
Musk is the richest man in the world. He is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful man in the world.
You have to acknowledge that. That's a fact.
Yes. And I think for the sake of the United States, we want them to function very well.
We want them to succeed very well. You know, clearly each one has a huge ego for sure.
And rightly so. They have to have an ego.
Nothing wrong with that at all. And I really sincerely hope that they can function together.
Musk is a very pragmatic person, logical person, because he has a mission. He wants to cut the cost in the US system, in the US budget system.
And he wants to really to balance the budget as much as he can. He told me that personally in my last phone call with him.
And I believe he's given the tools and he's given the tools, frankly speaking. And I hope they're all successful than frankly speaking.
We all love the United States. We want America to have strong footings.
You cannot be strong if you have all these budget deficits and trade deficits and that will make you limp eventually. Western Europe seems like it's falling apart.
Is that your impression? Western Europe really is aging. It's sick.
You know, you've seen most of the, West Europe specifically, wrong policies, bureaucracy, low speed and movement. You know, we see Italy, for example, under Meloni, you know, she's now the star.
She's a conservative, I would not say right-wing Franks speaker. No, no, it's very conservative and pragmatic lady.
And look now, Italy is the star in all Europe right now. But really, Europe...
Did you ever think you would live long enough to say Italy is now the star of Europe? Yeah, and I really hope that Europe wakes up because, you know, West Europe is the ally of the United States. Of course.
But really, look, the policies in England, UK, France, Germany, Spain, they are all really very much backwards. They need to wake up, frankly speaking.
Can a country run without energy? It's almost impossible. You cannot.
Look at the UK. I mean, look, the labor took part, took the reign of power from the conservatives.
And look where they are right now. They're exactly where the conservatives were when they left the government a few months ago.
So the UK is running out of natural gas. And that's true across Western Europe.
These countries don't have enough energy to have first world economies. Will that change? Look, I'm not worried about that, frankly speaking, because, you know, they will always find a way to find gas, you know, whether it's the United States or other parts.
You see, the Arab world also did help a lot in supplying the Western Europe with gas, you know, once they shut down the pipes from Russia. I think the Biden administration blew them up, right? We heard about that.
Did you hear about that? I know that. That made the news here.
Unfortunately. Why would the Germans allow their allies in Washington to blow up their natural gas pipeline and not say anything about it? You said that, you know.
You should answer that question. I have some theories.
But you're saying that all their ideas are leading to their destruction. Yeah, you know, I think at least they're leading to their...
Look, they have so many problems in West Europe. And unfortunately, they are not being acknowledged.
And you have seen a lot of right-wing parties, like in France, Le Pen, for example, coming very strongly. And she may well win the elections a few years from now.
So all this causing the right wing to come up very strongly unless they wake up so fast and do some quick remedies to their economical policies and also their political system. It's just funny to hear you say that.
So in Europe, you often say it's a battle between, you know, the native population and the Muslim immigrants. Here you are, a Muslim with prayer beads in your hand saying you want more right-wing parties in Europe.
Well, you know, I really am asking for to be more centrist for sure. Look at, for example, Meloni.
When she ran, she won't run on a very right-wing policy. Yes.
But when over, she just went to center. That's true.
When you reign, when you take power, you are forced to be more pragmatic. She's a very pragmatic lady.
Her policies are very logical and centrist. So, many policies of the left-wing really failed in Europe, did not work.
And I really hope that they go back to center and find really take major decisions to really jump aside the process, like Trump is doing out in America. Trump is shaking up the whole US political system, political system, economic system, financial system.
Even now we have serious tariffs now. I mean, this is still, you know, we're on uncharted territory.
We don't know where we're going to be heading. We don't know if these tariffs are there to stay or that they're there for negotiating tool to reach some conclusions with Canada and Mexico.
Well, you've negotiated with Trump, against Trump, you know, by the plaza and his boat. What do you think? Well, when negotiating, he was a businessman.
Now he's the leader of the strongest country in the world, the United States of America. I think with Trump, if you come with him straight and not necessarily succumb to what he's asking for, but if you're logical and pragmatic with him, you can reach a conclusion, a deal.
And very fast. How long did it take you to negotiate the purchase of the plaza? Less than a week.
Less than a week? Yes. And it's bought less than a week.
Very swift, very fast. So, you think the tariffs are just an opening round in negotiation? Possibly.
We don't know yet. Possibly, possibly.
But the 25% tariffs on both the northern neighbor and southern neighbor, Canada and Mexico, are pretty high. You've seen now how the auto industry was devastated today.
They're down more than 10-15%. Sure.
In trading, but the industry itself is the same. It's too early to judge, Frank speaking.
That's the trading, you know, because today they announced the system. Today is Monday.
They're going to announce, it was announced just now.

And the instantaneous reflection on that was very negative, obviously, on the auto industry.

So, you know, getting into a trade war with Canada and China, both of whom are totally dependent on the United States, they couldn't exist with the U.S., is different from doing

that with China.

How does that work?

Well, look, China, I was reading yesterday that China, Xi Jinping did not really answer, did not reply yet. This thing is time, is composed, you know, is more long-term.
Look, China, look, its dynasty has been 4,000 years old. So really one year, one month, four years of tenure of any president, really.
They're not too fast in replying. We have seen the Chinese government not officially reply yet.
We've seen Trudeau, we've seen Mexico replying already very aggressively and putting similar tariffs, especially in Canada. So we have not seen the reply of China yet.
But China, for sure, is different behemoth completely. It's different ballgame.
Do you believe the story about DeepSeek, their AI project, that it was developed for under $6 million? And is that real? Look, we're invested with Musk. And Musk is a genius of our era.
And clearly, you know, he's very conservative in the way he spends now. We put to them, you know, billions of dollars in having all these big mega centers being built in the United States.
So really, $5.6 million for this deep seek. You know, I really doubt this a little bit.
And we're still a very early part of this developing story to see if it's true or not and to see whether they steal anything from open AI or where the truth is exactly. But I think you have to give it some more time to see where the deep seek fit in the overall AI equation globally.
So there's, I mean, by far the biggest real estate investments in the U.S. and probably

around the world are in data centers for AI and other processing.

Can those data centers run on windmills and batteries?

Well, we have seen now many of those big companies now are trying to go other paths, you know,

nuclear.

So we are really very much in the early innings about all what's happening.

But, you know, our bet, frankly speaking, is on Musk, on the AI game.

We invested with them in the first round and second round.

We're backing them all the way.

And we've seen very strong alliance between XAI and X.

There's a lot of relationship between them that's really causing a lot of positive for both companies. Yes.
Yes. But, you know, for the past 15 years, the rest of us have been getting lectures about renewable energy, the green agenda, carbon zero, you know, basically hydrocarbons are bad, solar windmills are good.
And the second it became clear that AI would need a lot more energy than projected, people like Larry Fink said, well, you know, maybe we look to, maybe it's a, you know, it's a whole bunch of different energy sources. Do you think the green agenda is over, thanks to AI? Well, for sure, with the Trump election, the green evolution now has diminished a little bit.
You know, it's not as being in the prime time, if I can use this term now. It's there, but I don't think it's going to be so much as being number one priority for the Trump administration.
You don't think it's going to be the number one priority? Yeah, I know. Maybe number nine or ten.
But other, I mean, your peers in business,

big investors have been pushing green energy projects,

all subsidized by various governments.

Yes.

Do you think that will stop?

Do you think we'll stop getting lectures

about how windmills are the future?

No, it will not stop, frankly speaking.

You know, I know Bill Gates,

and we are partners with him in many projects, and we have with him a project called the BEV, the Breakthrough Energy Venture that is invested in, you know, hundreds of companies that are in non-carbon energy and they're moving, frankly speaking, moving ahead. So I think, you know, they'll still be there, but it will not be the same momentum and same oomph.
Do you think the United States will change its relationship with Venezuela because of Venezuela's oil reserves? Well, we have seen the US emissary yesterday being there. He met Maduro in Venezuela.
So, and I think it was very cooperative. He gave some hostages and he welcomed getting back all the immigrants.
So he was very welcoming and I'm sure Mr. Trump will love this.
So we have to, it has to remain to be seen because Venezuela, frankly speaking, they have a lot of oil reserves, you know, more than 280 billion barrels. So I think they have the deepest reserves in the world, proven reserves.
Exactly, exactly. So I don't know what's the ultimate policy from Mr.
Trump. Trump is a very sophisticated man.
And I think the fact that his ministry went immediately to Venezuela, whereby, you know, you have no relationship between both countries. And Venezuela was very welcoming.
So that story you have to follow because it's a developing story. Well, I mean, we've spent the last, I don't know, 10 years trying to overthrow the Venezuelan government.
Unsuccessfully. Quite unsuccessfully.
But then in one day, all of a sudden, Venezuela says, yeah, here are all your hostages. Yeah, yeah, sure.
And flies the American flag in Maduro's office. Like, what is this? Yeah, well, I mean, this is a Trump era.
Summary. Quick summary.
What would happen if the U.S. did some sort of big energy deal with Venezuela? Well, look, at the end of the day, Trump is pragmatic.
Trump also has good allies in Saudi Arabia, in UAE, in Qatar. We're always friends, you know.
I mean, even if Venezuela is being blessed by the United States, it doesn't mean that they can go and produce two,3 million barrels within months or weeks. So it's going to take them time to go back.
All what they have has been obsolete. In frank speaking, no new equipment has come to there.
So even the capacity of Inzwella, they cannot produce more than 3-4 million barrels. So that's still okay.
It will not really impact the whole industry dramatically. It will impact it for sure, but not necessarily devastate it.
But over time, and it takes a while to build the infrastructure necessary to efficiently extract it. But, I mean, over the next 10 years, you could see cheaper oil prices as a result of that, right? Well, for sure.
I mean, that's why Saudi Arabia is transitioning from being an oil-based country into being a diversified economy. So that's why we're investing heavily in tourism.
We're investing heavily into new minerals. We're investing into other alternatives to oil.
We are diversifying our economy in many areas. So really, when the price of oil does sink to below $70 or $60, we have other alternatives really to withstand the heat, understand the pressure of having less oil, less price of oil.
It's just funny that, you know, it was a year ago, if you talk to any big investor, at least in public, they would say, no, no, no, the future is not more drilling for oil. the future is more windmills and solar panels.
But you were saying, actually, the future sounds like it's more drilling for oil. Well, what I'm saying is that Trump, you know, drill, baby, drill, you know, Trump wants the price for oil to go down.
For the black gold. Yeah, clearly.
But also, Trump also has his eye on the fracking United States because the average cost to produce a barrel of fracking oil is also in the 50s to 60s also. So he doesn't want that also to go off.
So there's a balance here to what Mr. Trump can do, obviously.
You can put your own domestic extractors out of business. Exactly.
You don't do that. So you want to balance it now.
Clearly, Trump came Trump came with a lot of, you know, with a lot of momentum. But at the end of the day, you know, when he has discussions with Saudi Arabia and with other OPEC countries, they will know that also Saudi Arabia wants the interest of the consumers to be taken into consideration.
Right. There are a lot of competing interests on the question of price per barrel.
What do you think the kind of right number balancing all that is? It's very difficult to judge this. Really, it all depends on supply and demand, frankly speaking.
Well, of course. And you see China.
China also has a big role in that. And you see, the economy of China right now is moving in the 5%, 6% growth direction every year.
So, you know, there are a lot of factors that contribute into this whole big equation. Do you think, I know that obviously Donald Trump wants it in the 60s.
Do you think we'll see it there? I hope not, frankly speaking, because I have this of Saudi Arabia. Yes.
You know, I don't want to be 60, but I think long term, there's no doubt that the price of oil is heading not necessarily to the 100, but at least to to where it is now, $670, $80. Okay, you think it'll stay there? I think so.
I was in a restaurant the other night, in fact, this weekend, and I had a little trouble hearing what people were saying. And I thought to myself, I'm a little young to go deaf.
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We did a big bet on Russian energy right after the war in Ukraine started. 2022, I think.
With Lucoil, Gazprom, Rosneft. I think those three.
Correct. We invested in three companies.
How did you do? We did well, frankly speaking. We did sell part of it with some small profit, and now we still have some stake there.
So the war starts in Ukraine, and everyone's running away from Russia and Russian energy. The world is reorienting away from hydrocarbons in general, and you swoop in and make a huge bet on traditional Russian energy.
Why'd you do that? This was part of our investment philosophy and policy. We invested in so many companies that year in Western Europe, United States, and these three Russian companies were among them.
Right, but other people were not doing that. Why did you do that? We are sometimes contrarian, and successfully so.
If you were to pick, apart from AI and energy, like another two or three industries that you think are a good bet moving forward. Technology.
What kind? Well, look, we are invested, very heavily invested in technology. For example, in China, we are in many companies like Baidu, Alibaba, Tencent, Didi.
You know, Baidu is very heavily involved also in artificial intelligence. In America, we are also invested in, we are Meta, we are X, XCI, Snapchat.
We are many companies also in America. So we have a diversified portfolio in technology.
We are also in hospitality, you know, in Four Seasons and Accor. And we have a very diversified portfolio.
So you're in Alibaba. Ten years ago, a little over ten years ago, Jack Ma was a very famous person in the United States.
He was doing his roadshow with JP Morgan. Everyone loved Jack Ma.
Company gets, you know, one of the biggest market caps in the world. And then Jack Ma disappears.
Whatever happened to Jack Ma? You know, I know Jack Ma very well. I bet you do.
Yeah, I used to meet him always at the Microsoft meeting with Bill Gates. You know, I think, you know, Jack Ma really, you know, you know, China, look, is a centralized political system.
And I think he went a bit too far, you know, with the, I'm being very frank with you. He went a bit too far in his being outspoken against the regime and against the communist

system. So he

was just told to cool it down a little bit.

And I think that's what happened. He's now

in a cooling down period.

He's in a cooling down.

Are his whereabouts known?

He's settling between Japan and China.

He's coming in our public

a little bit right now, but he's not as high profile

as before. Yeah, no, he's not.

The United States has a big military footprint in East Asia,

mostly in Korea and Japan, but also other countries.

Can that continue?

Well, look, as I told you,

America is a big force to be reckoned with.

America is an empire.

Now, we don't call it empires these days,

but America is an empire.

You know, you have hegemony on the whole world, and America is a force to be listened to. So I think these bases are very important to stay there, to counter what's going on with China also.
Yes. So I know America now is being more somehow a bit isolationist in its approach.
But, you know, I think once Trump, you know, get more in the second term, he will acknowledge the fact that America needs to have this presence in all these areas to keep the strength of America consolidated. So you say that as a big investor in Chinese companies, you want to see American troops in Asia stay there.
Well, I mean, not necessarily in China, but you have a crazy guy in North Korea. Who's really a proxy for China, though? But still, he's a loose cannon also.
I mean, he does take orders from China and somehow from Russia, but also he's a very independent guy. And Louis Kahn also.
Do you know him? No, I don't know him. You have no North Korean investments at all? No North Korean at all.
If I'm going to go there, I'll ask Trump to introduce me to him. He's his friend.
It was a bold move for President Trump to meet him. Oh, I was there.
It was a bold move. There's no doubt about it.
And he a lot of criticism i mean what what do you mean since you're from the middle east i would say your mother was lebanese you're related to people in power in a bunch of different countries it's very common here for people for adversaries to meet and talk in the west in the last couple decades the idea has been if we disagree with you we talking to you. What do you think of that? No, I am, frankly speaking, I am very much supporting what Trump does here.
To talk to his adversaries, I think it's a plus. I mean, now we hear that Trump is going to open communication with Putin on Ukraine.
I think I'm for it, frankly speaking. Unless you engage, how can you reach a conclusion, an agreement or an arrangement?

I'm for it, frankly. I think that's very bold from him to meet the leader of North Korea.
Yes. How would you describe Putin? Well, Putin is, you know, is a very smart man and he calculates very well his moves.
You know, he's a very smart guy. And clearly, one of the things he said, he feels sorry for the day that the Soviet Union disintegrated into all these 15 republics.
So he has this empire mentality in him. It's in him.
It's in his mind for he still craves for the for the Soviet Union Empire

and the Tsarist Empire that used to

there before the revolution happened

1917

everyone wants an empire

do you think China wants an empire?

look China I think you know

they have 1.5 1.3 billion

people I think the first priority

really is to control their

domestic situation and have

growth because look China has a big problem

Thank you. have 1.3 billion people.
I think the first priority really is to control their domestic situation and have growth. Because look, China has a big problem.
Look, you have a very open capitalistic economical system in China. Yet, the political system is very centralized, authoritarian, and communist, obviously.
Now, these two don't go well together. So the question now, until when these two could happen and continue? China is very concerned about this internal situation, obviously.
And they want to have this growth happening to have these people migrate from being the poor level to being middle class. Yes.
I think that's the main worry, frankly, is being Russia for a foreseeable future. But couldn't you say that about a lot of countries? Like if you had a monarchy that was liberalizing its economy and opening itself to the world, had a state religion, had, you know, a thousand-year-old culture, wouldn't you be worried? I mean, how would that work? How could you maintain political control? Look, I think you're alluding to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region.

No, I know.

Which is fine.

Which is fine.

Nothing wrong.

Look, look, we talk very freely and openly.

Look, Saudi Arabia has legitimacy.

And I just said in one interview a few weeks ago,

look at the six monarchies in the Arab world.

Yes.

Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Kuwait. These six monarchies.
Add to them Morocco. Add to it Jordan.
These are eight monarchies. Look how, I'm not saying how good they're doing, how stable they are.
That is true. How legitimate they are.
Look at Jordan. Look at the neighborhood of Jordan.
Around it. Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Israel, and Hamas.

And look how stable it is right now.

Clearly, it's still a very difficult situation there.

Eight monarchies, compare them with the other 14 republics. In that world, there are 22, obviously.

There's no comparison between them.

So we have legitimacy here when the monarchies

headed by Saudi Arabia and other seven countries.

I mean, of course, I disagree with you as an American, but I agree with you as a traveler. I mean, what you're saying is obviously true.
But in our system, legitimacy comes from the consent of the governed. Our leaders are legitimate because we vote for them.
No one votes for your crown prince, but it's also true that your country is thriving and the other seven monarchies you mentioned are doing well relative to the republic. So why do you think that's true? If you go to the public here and rate Prince Mohammed bin Salman, he will get 70 to 80%, if not 90% approval rating.
I think that's true. To be honest with you.
Yeah, I believe that. This says it all, frankly speaking.
People would like to get stability, wants continuity, wants to be sure that the economy is doing well. People are fed up from all these wars and all these turmoils and they see what's happening to their neighborhood.
We've seen what's happening in Saudi Arabia. For example, in our Gulf region, Saudi Arabia.
We see what's happening in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen. We don't want all that.
We don't want all that. So really, frankly speaking, we are a very happy country here.
All the Saudis are very happy with what's going on. Crown Prince is very popular.
King Salman is beloved by everybody here. So frankly speaking, forget the elections.
We're happy. We're okay.
Well, I disagree with you in theory, but agree with you in practice, because it's just,

what you're saying is, it's just true. It's a fact.

I don't want it to be a fact, but it is a fact.

So what is that?

I mean, is the, I mean,

democracy is just a kind of

brief interlude in all human history.

It's a pretty new thing.

I mean, do you think

it has a future?

What do you mean by democracy in our region?

Well, if you're saying, I don't know. I mean, you're saying that

all the republics in your region are

Thank you. I mean, do you think it has a future? What do you mean? By democracy, you mean in our region? Well, if you're saying, I don't know.
I mean, you're saying that all the republics in your region are struggling. All the monarchies are thriving.
And that is, roughly speaking, true there are other factors. We have seen what happened to the so-called Bush democracy in Iraq.
We have seen what happened there. How could this whole thing collapse completely? You know, Iraq is a republic, correct? And we had the elections there, and we see the results.
We don't want that confusion, chaos. Look, we have monarchies.
We're happy with them. People are happy.
That's what counts for us, to be honest with you. With all respect to Americans, with all respect to Tucker Carlson, my friend, you know, we're happy with our systems, and we're going to continue with it.
What is crypto exactly? Well, crypto, you know, is a new system, you know, of a currency system that, you know, I don't buy, frankly speaking. I don't know.
We're not investing in crypto at all. And I don't think it's for us at all.
But it's there. It's facts right now.
It's a huge part of the fastest growing sector is the American economy. But still, you know, I'm not a believer in that at all.
Why? I would not invest there in crypto. You know, I just, it's not regulated well.
It is, you know, many U.S. big businessmen do agree with me on that subject.
You know, I don't understand it very well. And it is a new form of currency that is really very confusing for me and complicated and I don't understand it.
Is it a currency or is it... It's a form of payment.
That's what it's supposed to be. But from what I can tell, it's something that you invest in.
It's kind of an imaginary goal. We have so many other investments.
The world is full investments and better investments to invest in. And we never invested in crypto.
And we never invested in crypto. You're never going to invest in crypto.
Then why are the banks, big banks in the United States? I mean. All your friends, they're all in crypto.
They are forced to. I mean, even J.B.
Morgan that never believed in that. Of course.
Now they're forced to. Sometimes you have facts that you have to go with.
But, you know, not necessarily with full conviction, but they are forced to go with it, unfortunately. Why are they forced? Well, look, many other banks are doing it.
So they are forced for the clients. Many clients believe in crypto.
Many clients in the world believe in crypto. And so they have to reflect the needs and the wishes of their own clients.
So they go with it reluctantly. Huh.
I mean, if you have enough assets invested in crypto, at some point, it becomes kind of dangerous, doesn't it? Sure, definitely. You know, I believe it could be a time bomb waiting to explode.
I could be wrong, but that's my own belief. And that's the belief of the head of Jimmy Morgan, also, Jimmy Diamond.
You think he still thinks that? He thinks that. And actually when he was in Davos, they asked him a question, he refused to comment on it completely.
I saw his interview, he declined to comment on it. Because he's fed up from saying it's bad, bad, bad, bad.
So he's just giving up and not commenting. Yeah.
Exactly. That's what's happening.
Huh. Are any other countries in this region embracing crypto?

Yeah, there are some countries, you know.

But not heavily, not heavily.

What about gold?

No, gold is, you know, many countries have gold as one of their investments, for sure, yes.

Are you an investor in gold?

No, no.

But we do have some small portfolio of gold, but nothing major, nothing major, no. Nothing major.
Do you expect it to go much higher? Well, you know, I mean, it goes up and down, like, based on supply and demand, you know, but to us really it's not a priority, you know, gold. We're not very heavily invested in the gold.
For your country, for Saudi Arabia, you've opened it up very dramatically, both physically opened it up, you're issuing visas to everybody, which you were not doing, ever. But you've opened it up socially, women in the workforce, getting rid of guardianship, women driving, most famously.
What are the reforms, the liberalizations that you wouldn't do here? Where will you draw the line? Look, Saudi Arabia opened a lot since 2015 when King Salman took over. And Prince Mohammed bin Salman got in charge of the local situation.
And it opened up a lot. And I'm very happy with this complete liberalization of the economy, liberalization socially, whereby women became incorporated in the society, equal opportunity, women can drive now.
Basically, it's a normalization of the women incorporation into the society so Prince Mohammed just made a woman equal to men frankly speaking it was a big achievement for us because for many years before that we were deprived from that and I called for that many years ago and thanks God it happened so really there's no limit to where we can go but obviously obviously, you know, no one wants to go beyond the limit.

You know, it's just like America.

You know, if you do everything within the law, within the legal system, it's acceptable.

That's what's happening here.

You know, our country became normal.

We were in a normal situation with all our countries in the world. Well, normal in the West is, you know, well, alcohol for one thing, legalized marijuana,

transgender teachers,

transgender admirals.

I mean, are there

points where you say, we don't want that?

No, look, frankly speaking, I'm very conservative.

You know, I lived in America. I'm anti-alcohol.

And I'm very happy that my country

has no alcohol, frankly speaking. And

I don't mind that at all.

I'm a very

liberal man socially, yet I'm very

conservative in the with you. It's happening already, to be honest with you.

And if it's happening already,

so it's been tested already right now.

So frankly speaking,

the answer is yes, it's possible.

And it's happening.

And do you think they'll stick with it?

The government will stick with it? Well, you know,

I think this is for Saudi government to decide.

Of course.

I'm not government official.

So far, so good.

But it's for the government to decide

what are the next steps on that front.

So in our country, we had prohibition of alcohol for 14 years. Yes.
And it is described to everybody. I mean, universally believed to be a massive failure.
I don't know if that's actually true, but that's how history has recorded it. But that's, I mean, you think it's a success here.
Why do you? Look, Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country.

Yes.

And religion is very,

an integral part of our society.

Yes.

And not having alcohol here

is not really something that people miss a lot.

You know, clearly,

when you have a Western come here,

for sure, you would like to have some alcohol.

I mean, there's no need to deny that, obviously. But I think to have an experience in Saudi Arabia without alcohol is something to be tried.
But then today, it's the government, Saudi government, to decide if this policy to continue or not to continue. And it's going to continue in certain areas.
You know, you've been to Red Sea, I think. Yes.
In certain areas, if you would like to have this to be a permit or not, it's not for me,

but I'm working with both scenarios.

It's just interesting because it's one of the last pretty sober societies in the world.

I mean, and you've lived in a number of places.

What are the differences?

It's good to be sober.

Yeah, it is good to be sober.

It's nice to be sober.

I'll quote you for that. Beautiful to be sober.
Love it. You're something else, Tucker.
Prince Khalid, thank you very much for taking all this time. Pleasure.
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All the President's Men, the Conspiracy