Author Tucker Max left behind a wild life of partying to settle down on a Texas homestead with his wife and kids.

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About 20 years ago, a recent law school graduate called Tucker Mack started posting his experiences. The details of his dating life on the Internet.
He became a sensation. He wrote a bunch of bestselling books, sold millions of copies, the most famous of which was called I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell.
Not everyone likes Tucker Max. A lot of people hated Tucker Max, but nobody could deny that he was smart.
He was a beautiful prose stylist, not something you normally find in people writing about hooking up with ladies and getting loaded, but he was. And then he retired around 2012.
He stopped writing about that stuff and receded from public view. And then a few years ago, he reemerged as a very different person, as someone whose entire life was devoted to his own family at a level most people can't relate to.
He became a homesteader. What an interesting progression.
We thought it'd be worth spending some time hearing how that happened and what it's like to truly prepare for the bad times on behalf of your family. Tucker Max joins us in studio now.
Tucker Max, thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Tucker.
It was great to meet you. Yes, you too.
So I just have to add, mostly I want to hear about what you're doing now, but I just have to ask, how did you wind up? You went to University of Chicago undergrad? Famously the least fun school in America. It's earned its reputation.
It's earned its reputation. and then you went to university of chicago undergrad famously the least fun school in america it's earned its reputation and then you went to duke law school which is a douche factory obviously no it is i can't argue but then you wrote these accounts of your life which sounded like you were in a fraternity at alabama yeah like how did this happen um well it's the benefit of going to the least fun undergrad uh is I didn't have any of my experiences in college when I was too young to appreciate how fun they were.
And I kind of started having them in law school when, you know, because I got to law school, I graduated in three years from Chicago. And the cool part about Chicago is I got to law school and I basically already learned the hard parts of law school.
So I was like, well, this is easy. I don't need to go to class.
Like I know all of this. I know how to think all this stuff.
Law school is supposed to teach you already learned. And then I had all my friends were dudes who went to state schools.
They were the smart kids at state schools like Kansas or Pitt or UVA. And so it was like, and they knew how to party.
And I'm like, oh, I didn't have anyone like you guys with me in undergrad. Let's go do this more then of course we were by unc which was all girls it's not literally an all-girls school but it might as well be no it is like 65 no dudes at unc well the dudes are just like the fop the the iconic stereotype of the foppish southern frat boy types yeah and so for me it was like hunting at a petting zoo it was so.
And we'd go over there and be beautiful girls and these douchebag idiot guys. And it was like, oh, this is great.
And so we had a great time. And then we all left law school, went to different cities, and I went to Florida and I hated it.
Like this is... To work in a firm? No, I got fired from a big law firm called Fenwick and West in Silicon Valley.
I got fired about three weeks into being a summer associate, actually not even a full-time employee. And so I was essentially blacklisted.
It's impossible to get fired. And I did it.
I did it in three weeks. Basically I was an unguided missile, man.
I was drunk at all the firm events. I did all that stuff.
That actually wasn't the problem. The thing I did that caused them to fire me, and honestly, I'm not even mad at them.
They did what I would have done if I would have been a partner there. One of the senior female partners propositioned me, wanted to hook up with me.
She was married. Not that that meant anything to me at the time um or to female lawyers but well not to her i don't know but i'm not going to say all the generalize let me do i'll handle the generalization here to her it didn't obviously mean anything and for some reason i turned her down and then told everyone about it which is like if i had slept with her i'd bulletproof.
And if I just shut up, no one would have cared. But I kind of did the worst of all worlds.
And so, you know, I was a liability. You can't have someone acting like that in a law firm.
Yeah, you can't turn down a partner's advance and then tell others about it. I mean, that's, I mean, the Bar Association could get involved at that point.
That is a violation of ethics and intelligence. Like what's wrong with you? Why are you so dumb? There's a way to play this game and you're doing it totally wrong.
And I was. And so, um, I, then I, okay.
So even that wouldn't have blacklisted me from the legal profession, but I wrote two days before she propositioned me or before they fired me. Uh, I had gotten drunk at a firm event and caused kind of a scene although it was kind of funny and so i wrote an email about it that was pretty funny i sent it to my friends what was the scene uh we had like a charity auction and um i got up and i took the mic from like the auctioneer and i was yelling at this girl because she was bidding against me and the price was high i I'm like, stop bidding.
I can't afford this. And I need this to stay at the firm.
And like, it was like kind of like a funny, like it was like, you know, like the funny drunken person at a corporate event. Like I really didn't go too far, but I went right up to that line.
As a summer associate, the line is lower for you. Right, exactly.
Like even the managing partner thought it was hilarious. And so, and I wrote an email about that, not about the female partner, sent that to my friends at like on a Tuesday.
And then like on Wednesday I was fired. They didn't wait till Friday.
They got a Wednesday. Right.
And so of course my friends are assholes. And so they sent that to all their friends and then it like went out from there.
And so that like everyone in the profession got that email that summer like i was the you know the you know there's always legends about yeah i was one of the legends that ended up turning it and was your plan at that point to spend your life in big law yeah it was uh it really was i hate to say it the god's honest truth is i was the worst kind of like, okay, so I was deciding out of undergrad, whether to go to iBanking, management consulting, or law. Like, and I was that type of dude.
I had that mindset. Seeking soul death.
No, I was seeking status without merit, which is what everyone in those professions is doing. And that's just that, and I, you could not have convinced me that it was not a viable or valuable path for my soul to go make a bunch of money for bullshit, which is what you do in those professions.

And I bought it.

I bought the whole thing hook, line, and sinker.

And so I was going after that.

But I think there was obviously a part of me, like the whatever you want to call it. The drunk at the work event part.
Who clearly did not want that. There was a part of me, you know, like some people, you know, like you'll be mass murderers who want to get caught.
Of course. Well, I was, I wanted to get, I didn't have the truth.
I love to make myself out to be a hero. But the true story is I didn't have the courage to realize that it was a horrible, soulless path that I didn't want to go to.
So I acted out until they fired me and kicked me out of the profession. So when that email went throughout the tiny and very inward-looking legal world, what kind of response did you get? They almost didn't let me come back from my senior year or my third year at duke no yeah like the the it got back to duke oh of course it got everyone like i if i had wanted to stay in the legal profession i would have had to be like a public defender like there was no i'm serious no no one was gonna not that low a divorce attorney maybe jack i able to be a Jack officer.
That would have been it. I wind up like David French.
Hilarious. Sorry.
I love legal jokes. So, Duke was mad.
So, at this point, you realize the only reason she let me come back and finish my third year... I'm not really sure...
just no no no the um the the lady at duke makes the head of the yeah i forget what her her exact title was but the the only reason she let me back was because i promised not to walk at graduation like i was going to graduate and so it was like she like basically if i wasn't there I didn't care about going to anyway, because I knew I wasn't going to get a job in a legal profession. I just wanted to finish for two reasons.
One is because I didn't want to quit and not have my degree. Right.
Which probably honestly would have been the best thing for me, but I was one of those where I like, no, I want to actually have the, I don't want to say I went to Duke law school. I I have the JD, which I do.
But then also, I had such...

It was... I was one of those where I like, no, I want to actually have the, I don't want to say I went to Duke Law School.
I want to, I have the JD, which I do.

But then also, um, I had such, it was like my party years.

Like everyone else's party years are an undergrad.

Mine were in law school.

Had you been in a fraternity in college?

No, no.

It's pretty funny.

Yeah, I know.

Since you invented this genre of fraternity literature.

The New York Times said I invented fratire and I wasn't in a frat and I didn't write satire. It's memoir I wrote.
But that's the New York Times, right? They know about genres anyway. They're going to get literally everything wrong.
Of course they are. So what did you decide to do with your life at this point? I mean, you're kind of out of options, right? Yeah, it was not a good situation for me because where I was was I had enough courage to get drunk and ruin a future I didn't want, but not enough courage to recognize that that's what I was doing.
So I was in like this tough situation. My dad owned some restaurants in Florida.
And so kind of like I was still kind of looking for the easy path, right? Like law, law, you know, and iB i banking and management consulting even though you're working 100 something hour weeks they really are the easy path they are the soulless easy coward path yes um and so the next coward path for me was the family business and um uh i kind of i never really wanted to go into restaurants with the family business,

but now I'm like, well, this is, you know,

the two things I've trained for, I wasn't good at,

so I'm not allowed to anymore,

so I kind of went that path,

and then I got fired from the family business

in like six months.

It took me six months instead of three weeks.

How'd you get fired from the family business?

Oh, that's a long story. Basically, I was good at this.
Now, I was good because it's restaurant business, right? And I'm smart and outgoing. And if you're smart and outgoing, the restaurant business is designed for people who don't fit anywhere else, but are kind of smart and capable.
And so I was good at it. The problem was I assumed that my dad wanted to run a good business.
I didn't realize the business existed for my dad's ego. And so I got in and realized, oh, there's all kinds of people here who suck, who are stealing from him, who, there's all these things we could be doing better.
I mean, really basic stuff. Like, why are we ordering from this company? They're charging twice as much as this company.
It turns out that company's giving my dad kickbacks. And then these people who are incompetent stealing from him, you know, feed my dad's ego in a way that he values way more than what they're stealing.
And so I essentially, but like a fool, just like I, I didn't sleep with a partner and told everyone I went in, recognized these people were clowns and was like, oh, well, this is my dad and my name's on the door. So clearly, the fact that I'm right is more than enough.
I told them that they sucked and that I was going to get them fired. And they were smart enough and knew my dad well enough.
They rallied kind of the troops and got enough evidence against me that my dad picked dad picked them over me and i got fired amazing so now you're a graduate of two of the most prestigious schools in the country but you're unemployed you've washed out of and unemployable so what do you do man i i was not in a good spot um it was it was a hard time for me uh and i was basically like you know bartending, you know, work, like the kind of jobs that losers in their 20s get, that was me. Like I was a loser in my 20s, early 20s.
And then I was at the same time, I was writing emails to my friends from law school about all, you know, living in South Florida, which is a soulless, horrible place because I don't do drugs and I'm not old. So there was no social niche for me in South Florida, right? Because if you do coke and you go to clubs, South Florida's great.
And if you're like 70 and, you know, play golf in the Boca Country Club, then it's great. But there's nothing else.
And so I hated my life. But, you know, I get drunk and hook up with girls anyway and get in these horrible situations and write emails about it and send them to my friends and one of my friends uh a guy a great you actually might even do you know sean trendy real clear politics yeah okay so sean went to law school with me and is a good friend of mine he's a great dude and he actually called me up and he was getting the emails and he's like dude listen you're not good at law you're not good at business clearly but these emails are the funniest things i've ever read you need to go be a writer and i was like what the like what kind of bitch shit is this what are you talking about sean this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard and he's like well dude look at look at the evidence right and so um what a wise piece of advice that it was sean that gave it to me i i'm a writer because of sean trendy truly like yes it is 100 true and so or i took that path because of sean i was already writing i just wasn't envisioning that as a profession for me or doing that and so um i uh i ended up putting my stuff on the first actually actually, no, I took like the five emails that

my friends saw were the funniest. I sent them to every publisher and every book agent in New York.
Because at the time, publishing was still on New York. And there was actually literally, this was 2000, 2001, 2002.
There's a physical book of like all the agents' addresses and all like their query stuff. Because you're old enough to remember this.
Yeah, very well. I probably sent a thousand query letters, maybe between 500, a thousand.

I've got zero positive literally zero positive response you know like 90 nothing right and then probably got like 50 form letter rejections and i even got like i still have a couple of them uh like some a couple personalized rejections where like the editor was like this is the worst thing I've ever read you should never write even an email again like you have no place in publishing but at the same time I was sending my emails like all the emails I'd forwarded to my friends would get like they would forward those like not just the ones that got me fired but the funny ones after and I was getting my emails forwarded back to me. Remember early in internet email chains? Yeah.
Okay. So I was getting my own

emails forwarded back to me from people in other social circles who didn't know I had written them

be like, dude, you should read this. This is so funny.
And I'm like, all right, so clearly I'm

good at this. Like Sean was right.
These are funny to people who weren't friends. I'm like,

all right. I mean, it is arrogant to think this, but all these people in publishing are wrong.
Now, publishing are wrong now now i know i know publishing i'm like of course they're all wrong they're all idiots like pretty much everyone in publishing is there because they're a failed a failed writer it's not literally everyone but almost i didn't know that at the time but i was like all right well i'm not they're not going to publish me but then the internet was a thing at the time this is 2002 and so i had to learn to program html i put up a site on geo cities if you remember geo cities and it's like a i got featured on like college humor and a few other like those humor blogs that were really really early and it blew up and mtv came and did a documentary about people who were dating on because back when like dating on the internet was weird and creepy and all. And so they did a documentary about me and that blew up.
And then all the publishing companies came back and they were like, we want to write your books. And then that became, I hope they serve beer in hell.
Tucker says it best. The credit card companies are ripping Americans off and enough is enough.
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In fact, American families are paying $1,100 in hidden swipe fees each year. The fees Visa and MasterCard charge Americans are the highest in the world, double candidates and eight times more than Europe's.
That's why I've taken action, but I need your help to help get this passed. I'm asking you to call your senator today and demand they pass the Credit Card Competition Act.
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That's 1-800-780-8888. How many books did you write? How many did you sell? I wrote four fratire books.
One, I kind of gave away for free, so it didn't happen. But three were published.
All three were New York Times bestsellers. I think I've sold about four and a half-ish million of those books.
Yeah. That's incredible.
I mean, especially because my audience were essentially people who don't read. I can't tell you how many dudes in my life, it's been tens of thousands, have told me I've never finished a book read a book or bought a book

other than yours i believe that like tens of thousands so when why'd you why'd you stop and when did you stop because my my books were my stories about doing all the dumb stuff guys and a lot of women also do in their 20s drinking hooking up partying all that stuff and then by the know, I wrote, I started writing at 27. By the time I got to about 33, 34, I was like pretty tired of it.
You know, like drinking and partying and, you know, going out five nights a week is super fun when you're at a certain stage in life. And I was way past that stage of life.
And it was becoming tedious and tiresome.

And the cost of that lifestyle was really, not just the physical cost, but the emotional cost was catching up to me. And honestly, man, like everyone who goes through, some people go through that phase for a week and some do it for a decade.
I was more towards the decade side of it, but it was um i was feeling stuck man like you can't move on at life if you have to be this person that is doing a thing at a certain phase right and that's oh dude it was so depressing because all my fans would come to me you know i do public events all the time speeches whatever and they were all really upset if i wasn't the tucker max they envisioned in their head and at the time I would get really mad at them like fuck you I'm a whole person I but that was my own immaturity like they liked me because of my stories and because of a certain uh attitude I had in a certain way I was in a certain part of my life and some of them realized oh that's just part of his life jagger has to sing satisfaction at every show right yeah and i wasn't going to sing satisfaction the rest of my life like i eventually as i got i i matured a little i'm like look what am i doing getting mad at them like they even the dumb immature ones like the smart mature ones got it they read the books out they were funny didn't expect me to be but that was 20 right most people like they would come up and you know they have this multi-year relationship with me that has nothing to do with me right it's totally unilateral and it's all about a projection in their mind of who i am based only on the books and that was um it got really tiring after a while and then instead of trying to fight it and getting mad at them, I'm like, all right, well, I just need to move on with my life. And so I wrote, the last in the series was Assholes Finish First and I put it like a retirement at the end where I'm like, I'm not going to write this stuff, talk about it anymore.
Like I've done with this part of my life. And then that kind of did set me free.
Although most people who know me, know me from that stuff. And so even that, bro, for years afterwards, like I would be at Whole Foods and a kid, like a younger kid or something would come up to me and be like, oh, it's your Tucker Max.
And I'm like, why aren't you drunk, screaming curses at people laying under a table? And I'm like, it's 11 a. a thursday like what what is wrong with you dude even but even now to this to this day a lot of people their impression of me uh even after they meet me is still how did you find a wife i mean so you've like laid bare your personal life yeah yeah and you sold four and a half million copies of books about hooking up with various women.
Right. I told the truth about things most people don't ever tell the truth about.
For sure. Yes.
So like, what did that teach you about what you wanted in a wife? Well, it definitely showed me very much what I don't want yeah uh because a lot of the i mean i

i i was with a lot of women in that period i was single i was into women i wrote about it and then women who were at that stage you know the same stage as me came to me and so there were a lot um and i realized man there's so much the big man, was I realized I needed a woman who was very smart, who was very sweet and empathic. But most importantly, I need a woman who really had her own thing in life, who really thought for herself, who really was her own person, right? Because three or four years before I started, I retired, I would have been really happy with the hottest girl there was who was pretty sweet and basically a trophy wife, right? I would have been totally cool with that.
And then by the time I got to be about 32, 33, 34, I realized, oh, thank God I didn't get married. I would have been so miserable with that.
I would have hated that. I would have been divorced within five, six years.
I realized I needed a partner. And then I started to understand what a partner actually would look like for me at that point.
That's the crazy thing, man. I think I had to go through whatever, hundreds or thousands of women to realize how lonely i was and how lonely that life is after a while yeah you know it's the metaphor i always use is imagine that like because dudes don't get this man they don't understand women do most women understand what i mean when i talk about this because most guys have to go their whole life it doesn't matter how good looking you are how smart or how rich you are you have to work for women you have to go their whole life.
It doesn't matter how good looking you are, how smart or how rich you are. You have to work for women.
You have to have game. You have to talk to them.
You have to be good in some way, at least connecting with a woman. But once you get famous, all that's out the window.
You don't have to really do anything but other than be famous. And there's a million examples of this, of dudes who have no business being with any women who are famous who get all kinds of uh of women and you can't understand what that's like as a dude because you've spent your whole life like imagine living on a like a desert island and you're scraping out an existence and you have food but never enough and then all of a sudden you get picked up off of that desert island and you get moved into a chinese buffet and you live at the chinese buffet and you're like oh and you're gonna gorge yourself for a while or the best vegas buffet you can ever yeah golden corral forever right you're gonna gorge yourself for a while in fact you're gonna gorge yourself until you throw up a few times and then you're gonna keep gorging yourself and that was what my life was like i would like because women are always a scarcity for you as a dude it doesn't matter how rich or you are or how good looking you are how smart you are there's still a scarcity until you become famous and then they're then they're in abundance but for women penis is an abundance from the time that they probably pre-puberty for a lot of them right like there's always dudes around you know like and so women can kind of understand that it was, I didn't understand that at all.
And then I kind of had to revel in that abundance for a while and wallow in it until it became like all abundance becomes sickening and you have to kind of like all abundance. That's right.
Right. And you've got a really, okay, I don't want everything.
There are, here's the things I, here's what's healthy. Here's what I want.
Let me figure out what that is. So in a lot of ways, the best, it's funny, people will say like your intro is really good.
It seems like 180 degree turnaround in my, from where I sit, having lived it, I couldn't have gotten to be a dedicated father and husband and homesteader if I hadn't gone through that phase of unbridled abundance and hedonism. I needed that.
It's just interesting that you had all the women you wanted, but you just wanted one in the end. Eventually, yes.
Don't get me wrong. If my wife was cool with two or three, I might be all right with that too.
But no it was um lots and lots of different women was not an effective way to fill the hole of loneliness yes that's right for a while i thought it worked but it doesn't work long no it doesn't work yeah i mean abundance doesn't work but you could not have convinced me of that with any words when i was 29 right well i would have there's no It's an age thing. No, it's totally right.
I've arrived at the same conclusion.

But how did you get, okay, so now you are not just a husband and a father, but that's basically your job. Yeah.
I sold my company and it's all I do now. But what motivated your desire to make that your life? And what is homesteading and why do you do it? So I didn't come up with this goal ahead of time and then do it.
I discovered this path as I walked it, right? So after I retired from writing, you know, the stories of drinking and hooking up, I retired from frat tire. What ended up happening is I was still a really well-known author and a lot of people came to me to help them write their books so i started a company called scribe that um we you know david goggins i'm sure we did his books and tiffany haddish and some other people like that and we we did about from the time i started until when i left which was a 2022 like 2000 books and And so we were kind of the premier like independent ghostwriting publishing firm right and uh uh we built a you know great company 500 employees me and my co-founder zach um uh built a great company and um it was rewarding and i kind of went through the the entrepreneurial phase of life before i thought i was entrepreneurial but i was an artist and that being an artist and running a business with employees are totally different things oh i found out totally different things and i did not understand i only do one of those things not the other yeah so so it was there was a lot rewarding with it and and it started the business i met my wife first then started the business and And as the business grew and developed, I saw a very clear path to a lot of money, big valuations, expansion, all this stuff.
But at the same time, my relationship with my wife and my kids, and as my kids got older, even though my kids are still pretty young, I was like, hmm. And then I was in a lot of social groups and masterminds with pretty advanced and successful entrepreneurs who had way bigger companies than me and who were older and had older kids.
And I saw kind of how miserable they were in a lot of ways and, and like how much time they spent on their business, how little they spent with their families. And then I would like meet their kids and be like, Hmm, something's off that not all of them.
some of them had great balance and some didn't. And I just kind of realized, man, that as much as I did, I like business and I like entrepreneurship.
I didn't love it. And I definitely didn't love it more than my wife or my kids.
And I realized like, I don't know when I came to this realization, but I came to the realization that,

um,

the only thing that matters in my life is the relationships with the people I

love and the things I do that matter to them.

And yeah,

I mean like having a company to make money is that that's important,

but above a certain level,

like what am I doing?

I'm just stealing from my children.

I'm stealing my father from their children.

Um,

or I've seen my children's father from them, father from their children. I'm stealing my

children's father from them, which is me.

And

I decided I wasn't going to do that.

That $200 million

or a billion dollars is not worth that.

$20 million isn't even worth that.

It's not worth it. But most people have this

realization, decide, okay, we're going to spend

a year and sail to New Zealand.

But you decided to buy a homestead in Texas and grow your own food, raise your own food. Why? Well, there were a couple of reasons.
So you were around 2020 and 2021. So I don't have to describe all that.
Well, how did it affect you? I mean, you weren't working in politics, right? Yeah, no, no, no. I wrote a piece on on my on my blog about how i kind of i thought i was awake to how the world worked because you know i'd work in the entertainment business you have too you understand media entertainment and if you work in that business you see behind the curtain and how messed up everything is and and i saw i mean i saw evil hollywood was long before the me too stuff and i knew like everyone in hollywood Hollywood knew Weinstein was a rapist.
And, like, I knew, I thought I understood. But then 2020 happened and the lockdowns happened and all this.
And I was like, oh, it's way worse than I even thought. Like, I saw a little bit behind the curtain.
That was a public health emergency. Of course it was.
Right, of course. Did you think that for a moment? Did you think any this was just like what did yes so uh you grew up in this country like tell us what you thought uh so when i was watching the videos of people dying in the street in china like early march of 2020 there was a window of about for being honest about six weeks i was probably fooled three to six weeks yeah me too right this scary this might be legit this might be an actual epidemic pandemic this might be like whatever and so the uh i was uh you can actually look on my twitter timeline there's a uh when uh south by was canceled in 2020 i was for was like, Oh yeah, that was like March 15th of 2020.

I was totally for that.

But then by mid April,

I'm like,

hold on.

Like nothing about this seems right.

And by May,

I'm like,

Oh,

well this is a fraud.

Like this is clearly a fraud.

And then the riot started and it was like,

I mean,

the iconic photo of the,

you know,

the,

the,

the,

the CNN with the Chiron,

you know,

mostly peaceful protest and there's fire in the background.

I was like,

come on.

Like I'm not,

Thank you. iconic photo of the you know the the the cnn with the chyron you know mostly peaceful protest there's fire in the background so come on like i'm not uh but if you're i mean if you if you're rioting for racial justice you're not going to spread a deadly virus right obviously of course and well my favorite were the people was like well racial justice is deadlier than or racial injustice is deadlier than covid i'm like your racism is scarier than just stop right and that's when i was like okay okay so this is it this is utter total bullshit and so then my wife and i had always talked about getting on land we'd always wanted hold on let me ask you to pause what did you conclude from that so it was obviously this was fraudulent this was a total fraud but like why well see i mean i went to the you know all the big schools like i knew i woke wasn't a shock to me i saw that coming for years and in fact i mean i had a company that was 70 women and all creative so you think we would have been infected early no i saw it coming i kept it of scribe for as long as I was there.
I was able to keep it out. It's really, it's actually, if you want a really easy trick to keep woke people away from your organization, there's a very simple way to do it.
You just emphasize, make your primary value responsibility and your second accountability. And those people will go elsewhere they're incompetent not necessarily uh some of them are smart and capable it's that the the woke mind virus is about placing your response placing blame for your life on other people so if everything is about first about responsibility and accountability those people will not come to your organization.
And so I was able to kind of shelter my world from that. No, it works.
It works beautifully. I was able to shelter my world from them pretty well.
And so once I saw all this, at the time, we're talking about summer 2020, I'm like, the woke mind has clearly infected media, and these people are fools. I didn't realize how truly catastrophically corrupt government was until January 6th of 2021.
That was when, that was, because my wife and I decided to buy land the summer of 2020, and we bought our house in Tennessee that I showed you, that we talked about, right? And so so because at the time I like I didn't really understand I didn't think America was at the state it was yet and you know the way I looked at preparation and emergency stuff was a bug out place right and so we bought a beautiful house in the mountains isolated because that that's where my level of consciousness and understanding was then January January 21st happened, and in real time— January 6th. Sorry, January 6th.
January 6th of 2021. And in real time, you just watched the feeds, and I saw— I mean, because it wasn't hidden.
The Capitol Police were letting people in, and most of these people were just drunken buffoons, and it was obvious that this was nonsense that this was in no way shape or form anything approaching an insurrection and then you would turn on cable news and in real time you'd see them form this narrative that's not just wrong but literally totally contrary to what's going on and i can see i don't know why that moment at that moment, I realized that the Republic had fallen. I don't think it fell at that moment.
It had fallen probably decades, maybe a century before. But I did not truly internalize it until that moment.
When you watch them tell you what you were seeing wasn't real. And it was something totally else.
Like, media is always wrong. But just because they're wrong doesn't mean the opposite is true, right? So you have to kind of look in the direction that they're wrong.
And in this case, the narrative that they were pushing was very clearly the narrative you push if you want to create you want to create a fascist communist whatever some form of totalitarian police state and and i don't all the evidence was there you know like it's pretty common for you'll deny reality until all of a sudden the last piece of evidence clicks in and then all the other facts like oh oh shit, I should, I could have seen this a long time ago and I waited.

It was like that for me.

I mean, you can make a good argument that the Republic fell in America.

You can make an argument and it fell during the Whiskey Rebellion, right?

You can make an argument several times in the 18th century, definitely during the Civil War.

Lots of times in the 20th century. Yeah, like when they murdered the president?

Yeah. Lots of times.
JFK. I don't know when the American Republic fell, but it became very clear,

undeniably clear to me on January 6th, 2021, that we were not just an empire, but we were

the late stages of empire. I essentially missed understanding the American empire was an empire.
And I was like, oh man. And then once I got that, then I'm like, oh, now everything makes sense.
This is empire collapse. And I understand empire collapse pretty well.
Like all dudes, very interested in the Roman history and Mongolian history.

And if you study both the transition from republic to empire in Rome and the transition from Genghis Khan to his sons, because they were never a republic.

But under Genghis Khan, the Mongolian empire was what we would consider a free place in a lot of ways for these Mongolians.

And the transition from that to his sons and grandsons um less free very different yeah yeah it was empire collapse and i'm like this is exactly what's going on and then once i got that that was when my wife and i got serious about like okay we need to actually get ready for what's coming because it's going to be be, I don't know what's coming, but the baseline of what's coming is going to be chaos. And we're going to see a lot more of what we saw, you know, broken supply chains, riots, whatever, right? Like, that's kind of the best case scenario.
It was just more of what we saw in 2020. And so I kind of dove deep into the sort of prepper world.

Most of it's nonsense.

Most of it are clowns.

I don't know what they're talking about.

But there are groups of people

who I think are pretty sophisticated.

How long did it take for you to realize

that you're bug out place

in the North Carolina mountains?

January 1st, 2021.

Is that right?

So that's not adequate.? So that's not adequate.

Explain why that's not adequate.

Because, okay, when empire collapses,

the thing that matters most is community.

Who are you around?

What skills do they have?

What skills do you have?

How well can your group band together

and endure the tumultuous chaos until some new state, steady state arises? And having a cabin in the woods is the opposite of community, right? That was the, the old school American thought of prepping is really based on nuclear war and hiding a bunker and like it's just nonsense it's not

really thought out but if you go study end of empire and you study people who've lived through intense chaos they all say the same thing right like there's a lot of when the when the roman empire not the republic when the empire fell there were lots of places that did great because uh you know you can some warlord or the local roman general would just say okay like the we're we're gonna make this town my empire and the legions are gonna marry local girls and this is our area and those became i mean you can name them and no visigoths allowed no chaos uh lots of parts thrived for thousands of years. Hundreds, if not thousands of years after.
Because they had local rule, all the sorts of things that worked. Now, the Roman Empire fell.
But for a lot of people, in the aftermath of that, did really well. If they had great community.
Same with Mongolia. Same with, in a lot of ways the british empire the british empire was a little different it was a more modern empire but the point is our my cabin in the woods had no community and so my wife and i like how do we where can we go to find community how do we build a community and it starts by not a cabin in the woods but but by growing, raising your own food, taking responsibility for water, power, and food, but in the context of where a lot of other people are doing the same.
And so, we knew we wanted to stay in Texas for a few reasons, and we ended up picking Dripping Springs. There's a lot of towns in Texas that are doing things like this.

Dripping's not the only one. It's the one that we like the best for a couple different reasons.
So we bought a homestead. Actually, we bought a place.
A beautiful ranch was not a homestead. We've had to convert it to a homestead, but whatever.
And then we started to school. I've got to say, almost everyone on our team looks suspiciously well-rested every morning.
It turns out most of them are using a product called Sambrosa. Sambrosa blends antihistamine with a syrup of herbs and honey and is designed to help you sleep well, waking up, feeling refreshed and revitalized.
And based on the sunny, cheerful faces of the people I work with, it works. It's inexpensive.
It's less than 50 cents a night. And we know the people who own the company and they are great people.
They are faithful people and they are about the happiest family we've ever run across. The product Sambrosa has a ton of five-star reviews.
You can check it out on their website, sambrosa.com. So what's the difference between a ranch and a homestead? Well, generally speaking, a ranch is where you just sort of raise livestock.
But what we bought was, because I didn't know, right? I didn't really understand land. I bought a place that this older guy, this boomer, had kind of carved out of nothing.
And it was beautiful, beautiful oak trees and rolling pasture, but it was dead. Like, and I mean, literally dead.
The soil was dead. Everything was dead because the way he dealt with the land was very 20th century kind of mentality.
It was pesticides kill the bugs, herbicides kill the weeds, fertilizer raises the grass. Like, that doesn't really work well.
It works. It can work sort of for a while in certain circumstances.
But if you want to actually have a living, thriving ecosystem, I kind of went deep in the permaculture and regenerative agriculture worlds. And I realized that those people had figured out and so what we had to do was stop all chemicals i had to fire all the people he had that were working there the landscapers or whatever you know everything was irrigated it was he had saint augustine grass which requires like you know 130 inches of rain a year in texas right like so you're not getting 130 inches of rain and he was irrigating but it's like, what are we doing? This doesn't make sense with our land and where we are.
And so the last two years, I've spent essentially turning it into living soil and regenerating the land and doing management practices that make sense for Dripping Springs, Texas for 30 inches of rain a year. And you know, like, and now we now we have like it's it's not where it's going to be in three four five years but it's good man we've got a big flock of sheep bees we have meat chickens egg chickens you know like we have you know garden um starting to put in all kinds of stuff and so we're totally independent water totally independent meat totally independent uh we can be totally independent power we're hooked on the grid because why would we end up be independent before we have to be but um we have a system where we can endure a lot of chaos and be totally fine and we're surrounded by people in our community who are for the most part in the same position are very similar they have

similar values similar approach to the world um you know we that's why we started we started a waldorf school literally three minutes from so for viewers you're not familiar with waldorf what is that so there's lots of different educational philosophies um acton montessori public school Waldorf is a philosophy

that started in Germany like 150 years ago

and I think it is by far of the educational philosophies it's by far the best it is the one that kind of feeds the emotional side um it kind of it's like a renaissance style right where it kind of tries to help the whole child help Help create the whole child. Of the educational styles, I think it's the

best. That being

said, I'm still not sure if

organized schooling is right for

kids or not. Because right now, we have one kid I'm

homeschooling because he doesn't have enough kids in

his class for the Waldorf.

There just aren't kids. He doesn't have a class there.

But the other two are Waldorf. Waldorf's the best

by far if you're going to go to a school.

I'm on the fence about which is better or worse. So all of your children are out of the public schools oh never went into public schools my man i wouldn't i don't hate my kids i'm never going to send them to public schools and that raises a philosophical and i want to put this the president united states right with a message i think is relevant to you which which is that those are not your kids, actually.

Here he is.

Rebecca put a teacher's creed into words when she said,

there's no such thing as someone else's child.

No such thing as someone else's child.

Our nation's children are all our children.

So your kids are really his kids.

He owns your kids.

It's like when people say, you know,

I'm coming to take your guns. Like, well, stack up.
Stack get them same with kids no those are my kids and my those children are mine and my wife's now i i will say let's give it a very uh judicious um uh uh interpretation if what he means and i don't think this is what he means but if what he means is i don't own my children like they're chattel or slaves, that they are independent beings and my job is to steward them. Totally agree.
Totally on board. In no way, shape, or form do I think my kids should live their lives based on what I want.
They should live it on what they want. Totally on board.
I see my job is to help them become full people and find the lives they want. i don't think that's what he means i think what he means is the very typical bureaucratic really it's a really a communist marxist idea that children are the property of the state that the citizens are the property of the state that is and you disagree with that i disagree with It's not strong enough.
It's not. It's not a strong enough term.
There's just no chance that's going to exist in my world. Just not.
So I always thought, I mean, of course, I vehemently agree with you. But the number of parents who presumably love their kids more than their own lives, most parents do, I think, who are willing to let not just Alzheimer's patients

posing as president,

but any representative of the state

just kind of come in.

Do whatever they want to their kids.

Sexualize their kids,

basically like kiddie porn shit with their kids,

and they allow it.

Why?

Man, it's a good question.

I don't know.

Clearly, I would never in a million years allow anything like that i think most people can only give their kids what they got and most people were raised by people who went to public schools and they went to public schools and they were raised public schools are designed to create obedient uh employees yes like that's the most charitable right uh um sort of interpretation it maintains the surf class that's the point it does that is that and i'm not saying this this isn't like a conspiracy theory or a metaphor like there's a guy john taylor gatto who wrote a of great books about this. The literal stated goal, Horace Mann, all those people who invented the American public educational system, their stated goal is to create subservient employees who know how to be good citizens.
And like, that's just, I didn't have children for that have children for that reason to serve some other man or woman or some faceless bureaucratic entity. No.
And so if someone was raised by people who went to public school who were just employees and that's who they are, it's hard. I mean, this like not judgmentally, I can imagine it'd be really hard for that person to understand.
Well, this is where I went. This was good enough for me.
They're supposed to be experts. Why wouldn't they know better? You know, I can understand how a lot of people would get to that spot.
Now, the good news is all this nonsense lunacy with trans and other crap in schools, sexualizing little children is a lot of people starting to wake up and realize what, I mean, I knew this, I had never had any plan to send my kids to public school. Like that was never, I went to public schools mostly, and I realized how nonsense they were when I was there.
My parents weren't very good, but they weirdly, they gave me a gift. They weren't, they were not good parents.
they um they weren't bad people they were when i was there my parents weren't very good but they weirdly they gave me a gift they weren't they were not good parents they um they weren't bad people they were just bad parents and but but their bad parenting gave me a gift they didn't pretend that they cared like they didn't mix a lot of love seriously people laugh but i'm telling you man it so many people that was the that was the bad childhood. No, it was.
My parents didn't pretend they cared. So many people's parents or caregivers mixed love with abuse.
And so, so many people see those two things together. My parents didn't really pretend they cared much.
And so, like, I never mixed love and abuse. And also, they didn't really show up much for me.
And so I realized at a young age that the adults weren't coming. And the adults, for the most part, didn't know what the hell they were doing.
They didn't ever pretend they were experts or knew what they were doing or had the right answers. And so it's like they were so bad that in a way that they were good, they set me up to see the reality.
Yeah, I mean, it's true. I just love your attitude about your childhood.
That's a wonderful attitude to have. Well, I got there after a lot of emotional work, a lot of therapy, a lot of psychedelic medicine, a lot of work.
I wasn't always like that. I was angry for a while.
It's pointless to be mad about the past. Anger can serve a purpose for a period.
If it gets you out of shame or other sort of essentially anti-life emotions, anger is a powerful motivating emotion. But if you stay stuck there, it's not good.
I was stuck there for a while. Is your wife totally on board with these attitudes? 100%.
Oh, yeah. My wife, I would not be married to her if she wasn't, if we didn't share these values.
We were very aligned in a lot of when we met and we've she's done a lot of her own emotional therapeutic work as well and and we both have grown so much together over the last 10 years uh in parallel ways but i've seen people who um who split in the last three four years because their values just went different like Like the split was already there, but this kind of forced it.

So you've organized your life around surviving what you think is coming

and protecting this family.

What's here now?

So what do you think?

And then what might come?

What do you think might come?

Like, what does that look like?

I have no idea, right?

The range of outcomes, I think,

are extremely wide.

But you're working to mitigate against those eventualities or those possibilities. You can't prevent everything.
If an asteroid hits Florida, nothing I'm doing is probably going to make any difference. 95% of people are going to die.
It's going to be horrible. It's going to be Armageddon.
and and and my um you know having a flock of sheep's not gonna stop but um I I

I ah, it's going to be horrible, it's going to be Armageddon. And my, you know, having a flock of sheep's not going to stop me.
But holding aside really truly catastrophic, you know, Noah's Ark type situations, I think the range of possibilities are basically, if we're seeing collapse of empire, American empire, which I think we are, not necessarily the collapse of the American state, but the collapse of the American empire, I think my whole life, basically, the American consumerist experience has been based on essentially free or low-cost goods in everything, whether it's food or housing, or everything was really cheap or really easy to get. And I think if just that period is ending and nothing else, then we're in for a major shock.
Culturally, a major shock. Maybe a lot of the rest of the world isn't we are now on top of that unfortunately and sadly excuse me i think world war three whatever you want to call it is inevitable um i i think the u.s without going too deep in this rabbit hole the u.s debt has gotten to the point where a war is necessary um i.
I mean, when empires rack up too much debt, the only thing left for them to do to save it usually is war. And then that doesn't save it.
That goes down. Accelerates its decline.
Right. Exactly.
There was a point where the U.S. debt was totally saved.
Definitely during the Clinton administration and maybe even as recently as the Obama administration.

If the Fed had refinanced all of that or a huge amount of national debt when the interest

was essentially zero, we'd be in a very different situation.

But they didn't. And so that plus the massive stimulus bill, stimulus bills, what they were was graft.
the that plus the response to COVID, they were past the point in overtime. And so what happens when government defaults? War.
And then a lot of other consequences from that. So I don't know the details.
No one does, because I think there's a lot of ways it could play out. I just want to ensure, regardless of what happens up to a certain point, that me and my family and my community can endure that because I don't think it's going to last forever.
Disasters and emergencies don't last forever. There's another side.
I actually think America is really well set up to come out the other end of that in a really positive place. It's just going to be painful to get there.
So here's one potential mid to short term outcome, which is that we continue pushing for war with Iran. Yes.
Which apparently doesn't yet have nuclear weapons. Yeah.
We do. Israel does.
The whole coalition arrayed against Iran has them. They don't.
do they respond well maybe they just unplug the United States maybe a cyber attack or EMP attack takes out totally possible our digital life totally possible so that would you know I can't even I don't like to think about what that would look like but where would that leave you on your homestead are you living a life that could withstand that i'm not a i'm not a huge believer in now you have to be off grid and you got to be living like the amish i first off off grid doesn't exist even the amish aren't off grid uh if you think about it like they don't mine their own ore and they don't smelt it right so not you know disparaging the Amish. Like, believe me, I've been like, man, these dudes had some stuff figured out I didn't realize before.
You're pro-Amish, for the record. Maybe.
Pro certain things about Amish. But, no, I don't think off-grid exists, and I'm not a believer in, oh, if you're not doing everything hand, it doesn't work.
I don't want to make my life hard for no reason. That's nonsense.
I just want to make sure that there is a lot of coming political and social. There's a lot of political and social people now.
It's already happening. And I think it's going to get worse.
And I want to make sure that I'm in the best place possible to survive that. I not trying to to go you know be the unabomber and live only off the land and only have things that you know like ancient men had like that's if you want to do that cool i i i like electricity but you're not making your own bombs like he did dude i i like electricity i like air conditioning i live in texas i really like air conditioning.
It's pretty crucial for us. I like modern conveniences.
I want to continue using those as much as possible. And that makes sense.
But I also, if I had to say, the big shift I've made in my mindset, man, is that I was, like when I was in college, you don't go work for Goldman Sachs or go to law school unless you are deep in the consumerist mindset. I think that one of the major psychological shifts I've made is I've gotten out of the consumerist mindset to more of a, like a shepherd mindset, right? And I think it's one of the travesties that- Can you just flesh it out a little bit? When you say consumerist mindset, what do you mean? Consumerist mindset means I live to consume resources and status and what basically most of our parents were.
I want the house in the suburbs. I'm going to have these vacations.
I'm going to go to these places. I'm going to have this rank in my society.
It's an externally created identity, right? That consumer, because what do you even know what to consume, right? It's what your screen, what your media tells you is important and what you should be consuming. Where's your status come from? What matters? What car is cool or not? What clothes are cool or not? That's a consumerist mindset, right? Of course, I'm American, so I was deeply enmeshed and immersed in that growing up.
But one of the great travesties, I think, of the last 30 years is that the conservation movement and the environmental movement weren't one and the same. They were kind of enemies for a long time.
And I think though, now you're starting to see the permaculturists and the regenerative agriculture and the hunters and the conservationists really come together and realize we're all on the same side, right? And I am a big believer, like, I mean, like your studio, right? Like I really want to live in harmony with not just my family and my community, but my, my, the environment around me, the soil around me, the grass, nature. And everyone says that, but like not many people actually do that.
They live a very, a life that is divorced from the actual soil around them and the trees around them and the animals around them. And the last two years, if you'd asked me two years ago, if I live in harmony with nature, I'd be like, yeah, I like to think I do.
I didn't at all. And I had no idea what it even meant to live in harmony with nature.
And having a homestead, what's so awesome about having a homestead is that it has forced me to live in reality. You can have your phone and consumerist mindsets, you can live in abstraction.
Everything is abstract. But when you live, whether having a homestead or a ranch or a farm or hunting, you have to actually pay attention to reality or nothing works.
Nothing, right? And it has grounded me in a way that I thought I was grounded, but I wasn't. And that's a huge reason why I wanted to get on land.
My wife and I wanted to get on land is because we craved that in our lives. As we did emotional work and dealt with our issues, we felt the divorce from the world and wanted to get more integrated into the natural world, but then also wanted to raise our kids that way so that they never had to be divorced from that and had to find their way back to it, right? Like the whole point of public school is to separate the child from the family and orient them in bureaucratic, corporatist, consumerist society.
And I mean, like, I'm kind of torn because like, I like electricity and I like cool stuff and I'm not like, you know, I'm not shooting with a bow and arrow, I'm not hunting with a bow and arrow. But at the same time, I don't want, I don't want all of the negative nonsense that comes with that.
I want my children to grow up on land with their hands in

dirt, understanding first self-knowledge above all things. And that is the opposite of what you learn in public.
Everything public school is coming from experts, obey, do what you're told. Here's how life works.
The way our children grow up, first and foremost, your body, your rules. Second, like literally every their body, their rules.
That's like my kid at any point can basically stop anything going on saying, my body, my rules. I don't want to go.
I don't want to do that. And if it's not unsafe, right, then I'm like, okay, all right, we got to figure.
And so basic things like that, man, I just, I wasn't thinking about until two, three, four, five years ago.

But having kids and getting on land, I didn't realize how poisoned and how toxic almost everything in our culture is. Not just American, the world.
Like the way humans relate to each other. It was just me an example when you say poisonous what do you mean food you want to talk about food yeah all right so um virtually everything you find in a grocery store is at best unhealthy at worst literal poison Like my favorite example, most people in America now for cooking use seed oils, canola oil.
Canola oil was literally invented as a lubricant for machines. I forget the exact history of it, but it is machine lubricant it is so toxic and horrible for the body and it's in everything now a huge reason that we wanted a homestead and to raise our own meat and our own vegetables is because it's really hard to get healthy food anywhere even at farmer's markets sometimes it's hard to get it like, go find something in a grocery store that doesn't have a seed oil in it.
It's almost impossible. Even at Whole Foods.
Unless you're on the outer rim, right? Unless you're taking a head of lettuce or something like that. If it's in a package, something like, I forget, 70 plus percent of stuff in packages in whole foods has seed oils and it's poison it's absolute and do you feel the difference having gotten off it i mean i'm 48 years old um it's just two days ago some friends of mine were looking at one of my book covers and the dude was like did you look like you what are you a vampire like you look like you have an age i'm like no i've aged but unlike most people in our society i have been healthy for the last 20 years and most people like you look at i look i can't i'm 48 most 48 year olds are 48 year old men are a minimum of 30 pounds overweight uh can't can barely do push-ups or pull-ups, are close to death.
Metabolically, are pre-diabetes, are horribly unhealthy. I don't even think I'm in that great of shape.
I just don't eat the poisonous stuff. I just paid.
I'm like, okay, I'm going to try and only eat meat from my homestead. And like, I, you know, I'm metabolically, if you look at all the markers, like my genetic age is like in the twenties, I don't, I don't do anything that special, man.
I'm not like out, you know, working out six hours a day or any nonsense like that. I just eat healthy and healthy means like, I know where all my meat comes from.
All the lamb and chicken I eat, born on my ranch, raised on my ranch, killed on my ranch, processed on my ranch, butchered on my ranch, eaten on my ranch. It's as God intended.
What goes in it is grass and water or bugs if it's chickens. That's it mentioned god offhandedly has your view of the eternal changed radically really radically so at 20 i think at a certain point in your life if you if you are educated and you believe in god this is going to be controversial i don't mean it bad i think you're stupid If you're not atheist at some point, early on in your life, because I don't believe you can reason your way to God.
Yeah, I know St. Augustine, whatever, I'm with you.
Thomas More, okay, fine. I just don't think you get to God from reason.
And so I was atheist my whole life because God never made sense, if you think logically. Is that how you grew up? I grew up actually in the Episcopal church.
Like I was an acolyte in the Episcopal. But you know, Episcopal church is like a social club.
It's not, you don't. Yes, I'm very familiar with it.
Yes. Like I literally thought we went to church to eat donuts and socialize.
I didn't know anyone believed that because it was preposterous to me. If you look it reasonably and rationally and then um uh it was about four years ago i you know it's funny i had never done i drank a lot never done any drugs in my life ever until i found uh part of my therapeutic protocols i did psychedelic medicine right like mdma lsd mushrooms but psychic like with a guide and and not recreationally i don't know how you do that stuff people take lsd and go to concerts i i took lsd and cried and found god like and it was the experience for me was not like talking to god it was i felt the oneness of all things and i felt the connection to all things and I felt I understood like I knew Jesus's and Buddha's teachings academically but then I was like it was one very specific experience it was LSD and I remember thinking oh fuck the kingdom of heaven is within now I know what Jesus was talking about like and and you know if you meet a Buddha on the road kill, oh, now I know what Buddha was talking about.
And I have a really good friend who's Mormon and he's the type of Mormon that like, you know, you meet some Christians and they just have that energy and glow. And you're like, if all Christians were like this, like the world of you.
I don't know what you're into, but I want to know more. He's one of those guys.
And I called him two days after my thing. And I'm like, Ben, you, you, when you say you have a relationship with God, you mean that literally.
It's an experience for you. He goes, bro, I've been trying to tell you this for a decade.
And I'm like, I thought you were stupid. I thought you were fooled.
I thought you just read the words and got fooled by them. What you have is the actual spiritual connection.
He's like, yeah. And I did not understand religion.
I understood, I didn't understand spirituality or belief in God until I had the experience. And for me, I had to get there on psychedelics.
I don't really feel like I do now. The psychedelics were important to open me up, but now I think I can, I have enough of a connection to source, to God, whatever you want to call it.
I'm very, very much a God guy, but not in the way most God guys are. Not a religious way.
I think religious dogma, some people need it and they like it and that's cool. I don't need dogma.
I think dogma, it gets in the way. And I think if you actually look at the teachings of Christ and definitely the teachings of Buddha, they say the same thing.
That the dogma is not the thing and is in fact

in the way. Although Buddha will

say, he says that, but he's like, you know, I'll give you

the eightfold path and all

that to help you, but then you shed it

when it's time.

Is your wife in the same place you are?

I think pretty much, yeah. How's it changed your

life?

That's like

a different way of seeing the world. In every single way i i got past consumerism because of this um because once you once you realize not realize intellectually once you feel the one and some people can get there like at church and some people get there with yoga i'm not i'm not saying my way is better or worse it's just the way once.
Once I felt the oneness of all things, all of the frivolities and the nonsense and the lies of the modern narrative fell away. And then for me, it was like, oh, of course, of course, being connected to land matters.
We're all energy. We're all part of the same system.
I'm not different than this land or this chicken or this sheep. Yeah, I'm a human and it's a chicken, right? But we're all parts of the same system.
We're all parts of God. And if you want to call the system God, I'm on board.
And if that's true, then my entire approach before, that's what's toxic. Seeing myself as separate from the system, as different than the system.

No, that's just not true.

Do you think, I don't know, maybe I'm imagining it, but it does seem like the people in charge do a lot to discourage these kinds of thoughts, these conversations, people coming together to have these conversations. They're very against religious faith.
Everything I just said is absolutely, absolutely completely catastrophically counter to all things government um in all ways shapes and forms i don't think it's an accident that the reigning governmental power at the time killed jesus i don't think it's an an accident that anyone who preaches anything like this comes crossways of power because most organized power tells you however they frame the message the message from organized power is you need me you need me that's right and the message from jesus and from god let's just stick with with Christianity, is you don't need them.

I knew I'd never met you before today. Yeah, we've never met.

And I have a ton of daughters,

and I did when you were writing your books,

and whatever, I wasn't living that kind of life,

but I could tell you were a deep person. even reading I hope they serve beer in hell not to brag I turned out to be right um Tucker Max thank you for spending all this time yeah that was thank you for having me man I appreciate it thanks for listening to the Tucker Carlson podcast if you liked it be sure to hit subscribe and leave a review and we only release some of our interviews as podcasts.
The only place you can get all of it,

including past episodes, is TuckerCarlson.com, and we hope you will.