Naomi Wolf

We were casting about for a video montage of clips that best sum up the force and the amount of institutional lying we in this country have endured over the past three or four years, and there were so many to choose from. But in the end, we settled on this because it summed it up pretty nicely.
Watch. There's no excuse, no excuse for anyone being unvaccinated.
This continues to be a pandemic of the unvaccinated. A pandemic and an outbreak of the unvaccinated.
This is really becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated. This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated.
This is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated. This is now a pandemic of the unvaccinated.
A pandemic of the unvaccinated. This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated.
So again, we could have chose many different topics to remind you of how much lying you have had to live through over the past several years. That just seemed like the most obvious and in some ways the most hilarious.
But what's really interesting about it is how the people around you responded. A very large percentage knew it was false because the evidence suggests overwhelmingly that it was, but went along with it anyway on the grounds that it's not even worth fighting back against people that powerful so i'll sort of go along with it some smaller percentage actually believed it and you learn something very sad about them which is that they're credulous in some cases not super geniuses but there wasn't even smaller percentage who decided well wait a, that's not true.
And you can't make me say it's true.

Under no circumstances will I knowingly lie because it's immoral and it diminishes me.

And by repeating your lies, I reveal myself not as a free person or a citizen, but as a slave.

And I'm not going to do that, period.

And it was watching those people emerge from the most unlikely places in many cases that was the thrill and has been the ongoing thrill and joy of living in this otherwise very sad moment. And one of the people we watched do that was someone, to be honest, didn't expect to see, but not only did it, but kept doing it to a lot of abuse.
And that was Naomi Wolf, who's been in the public sphere for 35 years anyway, writing and commenting on various things. And she's one of the people who decided, you know, I'm not going to say something I think is not true, period.
And so she's lived the last few years of her life like that. And she's the author of a new book about what that experience is like and has been liked.
It's called Facing the Beast, Courage, Faith, and Resistance in a New Dark Age. What kind of sums it up?

And we are honored to have her here in the studio. Amy, well, thank you so much for coming.
So what's so interesting, as I said, is the effect that this moment, and it's not just a public health story, I don't think, but this moment of lying has had on certain people. So can you just tell us in broad terms, when you started to realize this was happening,

what affected? of lying has had on certain people. So can you just tell us in broad terms when you started to realize this was happening, what effect it had on you and what your life has been like since? Sure.
Thank you for that kind introduction. Of course, heartfelt.
Thank you. Well, I realized the whole culture was lying by about July of 2020 because luckily for me, I'd written a book called The End of America in 2007 during the Bush Jr.
era. Which, by the way, admission, I never even considered reading that book, because I was like, no, meanwhile, it's on the other side.
This is probably stupid. And it just shows how stupid I was.
Anyway, sorry, I just wanted to admit that. No, no, it's like we were all wearing blinders yes about ideology at that time and probably till recently but um the reason it was lucky that I had gone through that is that I had looked uh for my research for that book at times and places um throughout history where a fragile democracy had been undermined and there had been a coup essentially whether by fascist forces on the right or totalitarian forces on the left.
I learned that tyrants always do the same 10 things. They took 10 steps to closing an open society.
So from having done that research, I saw quickly when Governor Cuomo announced that we couldn't meet with more than six people at once in our homes in New York State, and we couldn't assemble to pray. I realized we were at step 10, which is martial law.
It's emergency law. It's the last step.
We're already at step 10. They fast forwarded, they jumped over all the other nine steps.
And I realized how dangerous that was, because once you have emergency law, anything can happen. And then when I realized that I personally was being, I don't know, damaged by powerful forces for not lying, that was a year later, pretty much in June of 2021, when I was doing what I've done for 35 years, which is reporting on a woman's health issue.
I've written three bestsellers about women's sexual and reproductive health. It's not a new beat for me.
No. And so I was reporting on Twitter that women were reporting eyewitness accounts of themselves, that they were having menstrual dysregulation or symptoms upon receiving the mRNA injection, which had at that point rolled out.
And I literally just accurately reported this and said something like it bears more investigation. And I was overnight, all at once, it was very extraordinary, deplatformed from Twitter, from Facebook, from YouTube, but also all the newspapers and news outlets where I'd been a commentator or columnist for 35 years ran pieces smearing me and saying I was spreading misinformation and I was an anti-vaxxer and my Wikipedia page changed overnight, which I now understand better because I didn't understand the role of AI at that point in journalism.
And basically, I became a non-person on the left. I was kicked out overnight from my comfortable perch, you know, in the liberal elite media.
That turned out to be a blessing in disguise. You've been occupied since like the early 90s, late 80s.
I mean, I remember very well. Yes.
No, it had been, I'd been like, I don't know if you can say you, you know, I'd been a fixture of that world. Oh, you were a lifetime member.
I know. I got it.
I knew where I was. I agree with you.
And so that was extraordinary because people who had sought me out for my opinion wouldn't even not take my calls. They were just shredding my reputation.
People you knew? Yeah, people I knew, colleagues, friends. I mean, it was wholesale because not only had I done the bad thing of questioning the vaccines or just reporting accurately on a real symptom, which turns out to be a very important symptom, because if you've got menstrual dysregulation in 2021, you're going to have what we now have, which is a 13 to 20% drop in live births, according to government databases throughout the West in 2023 and 2024.
But I did the bad thing of talking to conservatives. Because after I got out of the liberal elite media, interestingly, very interestingly to me, the people who did want to hear what I had to say because they cared about women and babies and families were conservatives.
And so Steve Bannon had me on his show and I was very happy to speak to him because this was a very important problem that women were facing. And, of course, you're not allowed to speak to Steve Bannon.
I talked to you in 2021 and Media Matters went, you know, full on attack because I talked to you about this very important problem affecting women and babies. And it was just surreal to me that people who purported to be feminists and egalitarians and to care about women, you know, were very happy to throw this whole issue under the bus.
If you kind of cross this red line that society had erected kind of overnight where, you know, there were things you're not supposed to question people you're not supposed to talk to. How shocked were you by this? I was very shocked.
I knew that my side had become increasingly ideologically rigid and extreme and irrational in some ways. I saw the kind of mission creep from liberalism to wokeism.
I hate that phrase, but there's no better phrase. But I still thought, you know, we talk about this from time to time.
You and I, when we get a chance to talk, it's like I still thought that world existed in which if you're in the news business, you report facts, you know, and if you're in the media, you can have opinions. And that world was gone, and we were living in kind of a Stalinist reality very quickly.
What did that do to your personal life? Because obviously nothing, you know, we didn't live in a country this politically charged or polarized 10 years ago, it was still political. And if you were identified with the

left, most of your friends were on the left. And I mean, it was still, it was that way in the 90s, I remember.
So did this mean the end of your personal relationships? A lot of them, sadly. I mean, I'm very lucky that I have a husband who is very courageous, and he's also a soldier.

He's been in, you know, he's a veteran

and he's been in a lot of scary situations. And so he understood very early on that this was a war.
And because he studies China, he understood that, you know, there were forces that were trying to subvert our country in non-conventional ways. And that helped me because it gave me a frame to understand what was happening.
But it was incredibly painful. One of my best friends left the country without saying goodbye because she was disappointed in my position on vaccines.
Literally, my position was, here are some facts that are emerging. It's like, that was my position.
Let's see, my, my, you know, we were not invited to Thanksgiving's, we had, oh, Christmas of 2021. Maybe it was 2022.
President Biden gave his famous, it's going to be a winter of severe disease and death. For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death for unvaccinated.
For themselves, their families, and the hospitals, they'll soon overwhelm. And we had had a Christmas vacation with a lot of loved ones planned, and it all got canceled because everyone was in a state of fear because the president on down was saying at that point that unvaccinated

people, let alone people who are trying to warn people about some of the side effects that were emerging, were dangerous dissidents who were carrying plague and no amount of reason would would break through. But yeah, there were a lot of very painful endings of friendships.
And as I wrote in Facing the Beast, it wasn't just on the kind of rejecting side, right? I wasn't just on the receiving end. I was witnessing the creation overnight, especially by 2021, in New York City, where most of my friendships were, and most of my colleagues were, but also in Washington, the creation of a two-tier society, exactly along the same lines as a Jim Crow society, or, you know, during the occupation in France, when Jews couldn't go certain places.
Or a Stalinist society. Exactly.
And all these people who were so right on, who were leaders in the feminist movement, who would never discriminate against people of color or against people in the LGBTQ community, who opposed discrimination, embraced discrimination. They were fine with it.
They were fine with a city, the greatest city on earth, the most diverse city on earth, famous melting pot city, New York City. They were fine with a situation in which unvaccinated people had to eat in the street like animals.
I could not walk into a restaurant with my family and they were fine with it. And then having Uber uber eats delivery men of color brave brave the pandemic to bring them sushi like that's right they didn't see any um they were not ashamed they they were not ashamed of massive discrimination they were i mean i remember going to a big rally one of the earliest ones in new y York City on behalf of first responders who were being fired because they would not take these mandated totally experimental injections whose trials were still underway till 2023.
Right. This was 2021.
And there was no evidence that they were safe. They were experimental.
It was an emergency use authorization. They had not gone through the normal FDA approval process.
And reasonably enough, some firefighters and police officers and emergency health care workers didn't want to be the guinea pigs and they were being fired. Their kids had no, you know, food to eat.
They didn't know how they would pay their mortgages. And I remember going down to speak at this event, and I looked out over this sea of New York City firefighters and police officers and people who come and save you when you've got a heart attack, you know, EMT responders.
And I was like, where are my, where's, where, where is everyone from my world? They're all supposed to be here. These people help them.
You know, no one showed up. All the good liberals were fine having the police officers and the firefighters who would save them if they were being robbed or their house was on fire or their kids were in a burning building.
These guys and girls would run in to save their children. My peers were fine letting this be done to them.
And it was so elitist and so disgusting. Your mind must have exploded.
It was so hard to process. And it wasn't just like a handful.
It was en masse. It was like everyone was in a cult.
And it was a cult in which they were abandoning all the ideals that they had professed and that I admired. Why I was a liberal is we don't do things like that.
You know, we don't sacrifice whole classes of people. But I guess we did.
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That's 1-800-780-8888. Why do you think you were in the tiny percentage who wouldn't go along with it? That's a hard question.
I mean, I guess, well, I've never gone along with anything you know that shouldn't be gone along i know the feeling but i guess i'm lucky so you didn't get that far in the girl scouts is what you're saying i don't think they would have had me but um i think i'm lucky for a few reasons um well i mentioned how great it was like a lot of marriages ended during this time you know i had someone beside me who yes amen i know i'm so so lucky yeah we're very lucky but also my grandmother uh faye goleman may wherever she is bless her um she was an absolute she believed in this country. She was a patriot and her mom was, you know, a 16 year old Russian immigrant.
And, you know, I'm the daughter and granddaughter of immigrants. And she just fiercely believed in this country and she, she didn't put up with bullies.
And so I guess she just raised me to be aware of when this country was veering away from freedoms of speech or democracy, liberty. That's what my family had fled the czars and fled Germany on the other side of the family to escape.
So I recognized it, the stench of it, the stench of fascism and totalitarianism. But you share that with probably five dozen other people I know, almost that exact family story in a history of principled nonconformism, which I have always admired.
And none of them went to the first responders protest. So it does, no, I'm not attacking them not attacking i'm just but it is interesting that it still doesn't quite explain why you wound up on in the place that you did i understand that i'm believing in and behaving according to values i've always had i don't understand why people around me who professed the same values turned

all at once. I mean, they were being heavily propagandized.
Yes. You know? But these are, I mean, how honest do you want to be? These are smart people.
I know. You know what I mean? And they're certainly well-educated people.
I know. I know.
I know. I know.
I can't explain it. I mean, you know, you, I'm sure, aware of Dr.
Michael Nell's book, The Indoctrinated Brain. And I think some of it is, you know, I can only speculate, Tucker, but people were isolated.
And as I wrote in my last book, The Bodies of Others, isolation is a way to break down prisoners. And it's a form of and it changes the brain and so people who were isolated and being propagandized non-stop that you know we're the ones endangering everyone or those first responders who won't get vaccinated they're the ones endangering everyone they believed that you should fire the first responders because they're endangering everyone yes you know, everyone was lying at that point from the top down.
The CDC was implying or stating that vaccination stops infection. Rachel Maddow said that, you know, the virus stops when you're vaccinated, as I recall.
I mean, I don't have her exact words in front of me. The president was saying, if you get vaccinated, it stops the virus.
All the language implied that we were the ones endangering everyone, endangering children, endangering grandma. So it's a very demonic set of lies, Tucker, because people who, you know, through the first responders and firefighters and police officers under the bus or the soldiers and sailors did so believing that we were the ones harming society and that they were being good.
And that also by submitting themselves to these injections, they were, you know, show I mean, that was the language, the language was actually Yale was where they did the focus groups, they took the money from HHS, and they did the focus groups finding out the the propaganda bullet points that liberals respond to most and they were altruistic they were like you know do the right thing for society right okay here you know well they leverage your best qualities and those are a person's best qualities altruism is your best quality and they they took that and used it against us yeah but also like i get this point in my kind of how did this all happen internal monologue and then i think just like you these are smart people read a book well that's of course i completely agree and the reason i'm pressing you on this is because i don't know the answer myself and i've been brooding on it for a couple years now i suspect it's a more core variable i think it may have to do with how healthy your personal life is.

I do think that people I know who had healthy marriages, respectful, happy, those people were less susceptible.

Yeah.

But I don't know.

So while all of this was going on, and I remember very well watching a lot of surprises. You went from being kind of a celebrated person to being an enemy and watching CIA-controlled Wikipedia write that into history, your sins.
I wonder, are any of your friends reaching out to you offline, privately, to say, I'm with you? Oh, it's sadder than that. I mean, no one has ever said, I behaved abominably.
I'm so sorry. Not one person has ever said that? Not one.
No. Whoa.
However, I mean, this is so heartbreaking. I mean, I don't want to throw my friends under the bus, but this form it takes is what will happen to me typically.
I've started to be invited back to some of the parties that I got dramatically excluded from. And I'll go because I want to build bridges and heal society.
See old friends. See old friends, certainly.
I mean, it's not like I don't go back with emotions, but I but i go and i'll just be standing there and people will come up to me without even introducing themselves tell me their symptoms they'll say i have blood clots in my legs or my grandfather just passed from a triple heart attack they'll just share their symptoms and so i feel like i feel like people are waking up and I don't need an apology. I don't, because this isn't about me.
It's about something much more important. But I feel like if society will ever heal, that emerging awareness that something catastrophic happened, people have to understand that something catastrophic happened in order to heal.
And I do see that happening. It does feel like on an individual level, I also hear that because I wasn't vaxxed and said so.
And so maybe people feel comfortable if they know where you stand on that. And I'm not very judgy, so I'll sit and listen.
But I have not heard one acknowledgement outside of interviews I've I've done with people but but more broadly society-wide I don't haven't heard any public official even refer to it no no in fact there's a section facing the beast that goes into that it's it's like the phrases move on you know when you go back to Brooklyn or to New York now, the, you know, those elite circles or the circles where the culture is being produced or even where politics is being produced, except, you know, the outside figures with whom I talk to these days. The consensus is almost like this massive amnesia or probably like Germany after, you know, in 1946.

Like, let's just move on. Let's not discuss it.
Like there's a section of Feast and the Beast where I go into a bookstore in Brooklyn, you know, a good one, Jackson McNally. And there's like not a book by the experts on racial disparities in education about brown and black children being left behind for two years and falling back academically in ways that are unlikely to recover in their lifetimes.
There's, you know, from feminists, there's not a book about how women lost all the gains they made in the workforce because they had to go home and look after children who are chained to computers. you know the doctors the health section nothing about the vast documentation now

of the injuries and sterilizations and deaths, you know, resulting from these mRNA injections or nothing about treatments. The people like Robert Reich, you know, don't talk about the biggest transfer of assets in living history as small businesses, small landlords couldn't compete, had to close their shops, had to sell their properties off at fire sale prices.
BlackRock and Vanguard scooped up the properties and Walmart- Now we have a renter society. Sorry? Now we have a renter society.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

And, yeah, and all the liberal economists are not talking about that at all.

Not a word.

And so, weirdly, I'm having the most important conversations of my life with libertarians and conservatives and independents because the whole societal superstructure won't process what happened because they were complicit. Yeah.
They're implicated in the crime. And legally implicated in many cases.
But it's also the great liberation of, it's the only liberation of your life, is admitting how wrong you were, how loathsome you've been. Saying that out loud is to be freed from it.
So I just feel like a lot of people, millions of people are missing the opportunity to be much happier than they've ever been. When you just say, I did this and I'm sorry.
Right? I think so. But you asked earlier, why did so many people go along with a great crime and a massive lie? And one of the things we haven't talked about that in my observation distinguishes between the people who could tell and hear the truth and those who went along with this massive lie and crime is religious faith.
Well, I couldn't agree more. And so if you believe that— But I don't is religious faith.

I couldn't agree more. And so if you believe...
I don't think religious faith is possible unless, or any kind of personal growth, but religious faith is not possible unless you admit how screwed up you are. Totally.
But if you don't really have a very deep religious faith, you don't think you have to. Interesting.
Yeah. so how okay so i wanted I wanted to, that's one of the main things I wanted to talk about, about how this changed you as a person because you can't go through something that transformative.
I mean, I don't think this was on your list of potential future events. Like lose all my friends, wind up with Steve Bannon.
Like what? So how did that affect you as a person? Which part? The whole experience. So like, you in 2024, how are you different from the way you were in 2019? Gotcha.
Well, I mean, one huge difference. And I think a lot of us who are colleagues on this journey, you know, feel the same way.
The scales have fallen from our eyes, right? About so many things, but about every institution. You know, in 2019, I thought hospitals were places where doctors would heal people and they became death factories for bonuses.
They were prescribing killer medication to get those bonuses. I'm sure your audience is familiar with the work that's been done on that.
I thought that, as I mentioned, that the media told the truth and they were willing to take the money from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and then from the CARES Act to lie, you know, to overcome vaccine hesitantly, to lie and lie and lie and to smear people who were telling the truth. I mean, we could go on and on, you know, the presidency, Congress, I mean, everyone around the world, right, especially the West, that was targeted by these lies and by this global coup.
I don't think that's an overstatement. All of those institutions didn't work.
Only a few people resisted in all of our major institutions, the educational system, the universities. You know, I went to Yale because they were mandating these shots for the kids, a booster.
The staff was exempt, the administration was exempt, the faculty was exempt. And I knew for sure that they were going to cause some hard damage to the young men and some reproductive damage to the young women and the young men.
And they took more money from HHS than they take from tuition. So they don't need the students.
They're trafficking the students' bodies, in effect. They don't need the students as much as they need.
Have you gone to Yale? Yes. Yeah, it was my alma mater.
Wow. I know.
So again, like one institution after another just exploding and collapsing when it comes to basic ethics or basic professional obligations. So I so i guess that's a difference between well so but that raises kind of the core question it's like all the things that you believed in you could no longer believe in right so what do you believe in um well while all of those um insights were shocking me with how corrupt everything was and that we really have to rebuild everything from the ground up, right? It's not redeemable.
I mean, you look at Canada, you were just in Canada. If they've got a death program and they're advertising death to depressed teenagers that is not a redeemable situation um So, you know, we, I think we're at a time in which we have to, you know, understand that it's 1774 again, 1775, 1776, and rebuild all these institutions from the ground up in a, in a way aligned with our, I would say, divine mission on this planet as Americans.
Yes. And people around the world have the same divine mission to build.
I mean, I think democracy is kind of sacred. And so when you have freedom, you have a sacred space in alignment with our human mission to kind of walk with God appropriately.
So I think we just need to rebuild all of it from the ground up. And I guess to finish answering your question, a difference between the way I saw the world then and the way I see the world now is that parable that parable who's who you know who's who's my brother right um the people I thought were my brothers and sisters are not my brothers and sisters and my brothers and sisters are people from all walks of life many conservatives many libertarians people of faith people not of you know conventional faith but who care about their fellow human beings.
And it's a beautiful time, as well as being a horrific time, because these people are finding each other and starting to build new institutions. Yes, I feel that so strongly, that it is a beautiful time, and it's so important not to let the sadness that you feel watching everything you love die, blind you to the things that are being born right in front of you.
Would your 2019 self have used the phrase walk with God? Not publicly. Not publicly.
By the way, it's not just liberals. I don't know many educated, college educated conservatives who would have used that phrase either.
So what changed in you that you're comfortable using that well and this is something I write about I in facing the beast when I considered what I was seeing with all the heads of state of countries around the world walking in lockstep in a way in an anti-human um assault against citizens right i mean the lockdowns targeted everything that's best about us as human beings yes prayer singing family intimacy physical contact physical touch physical contact, community, right? All of that was targeted. When I saw that happening around the world in identical language, all at the same time, I realized that that was not, from my study of history, that's not possible by just human history.
Like human history doesn't work that way. There are always, you know, dissidents inside, right? Or there are always factions or rich people who can't be bribed or, you know, martyrs who don't want to go along with it.
It's way messier than that, that's right. Always messier.
If it's organic, right. Hitler's situation was messier.
Of course, very messy. Very messy.
Stalin's like, oh my gosh, they fought a civil war for five years. Totally, but you don't get lockstep evil all over the world in concert with merely human efforts.
And I also just felt that the world had something new let loose on it. It just felt like these dark forces had been let

loose that had not been on the planet. It felt the same thing.
My whole life. And I saw that this was evil, right? I saw that it was like so impressive that it was beyond human capacity and that it was evil that was so impressive.
And so I concluded that I believed in God more literally than I had

because the evil aimed at him was, was more literal than I'd ever witnessed before. So it must be aimed at something that really exists, you know, and...
So you sort of came at it from a photographic negative. Initially, initially, but then I also asked myself, what is this evil? And I mean, I've always been interested in evil, like as the granddaughter of people who lost siblings in the Holocaust, you know, you think about evil.

So the explanations that are around, like it's Satan, that wasn't satisfying to me,

partly because I knew the literary creation and evolution of the idea of Satan in the West,

which is kind of very elaborated by Dante and Milton. And also because I'm Jewish, we don't have the same discourse around Satan.
Satan kind of shows up once or twice, but he's not the same figure of like magisterial evil in the Old Testament. So I read a book by a Jewish writer who became

a Messianic Jew, meaning he believes in Jesus, called Jonathan Cahn. And it's called The Return

of the Gods. And while I don't believe everything in the book, his thesis made emotional sense to

me, which is he argued that we've, we in the West, but especially we in America, have kind of released our hold on the covenant with God. And when we do that, we leave the parable he cited was from the New Testament about the room that's empty and then seven demons come

and inhabit it. You know, it's all a metaphor, but it's also not a metaphor that when we did this, it allowed these negative entities to kind of reoccupy us and our society.
And he talked about actual pre-Christian

like early

entities, the ones that my people in the Hebrew Bible

were and he he talked about actual pre-christian like early entities the ones that my people in the hebrew bible were fighting against or you know always being tempted by and that's um malik which is just violence and baal which is just pure power and astardi which is um kind of un unlicensedensed anti-family sexuality, right? Like irresponsible sexuality. And that actually resonated with me, because not like literally, oh, they're here, but like, what if, you know, that story in the Hebrew Bible about people being seduced away all the time by these powerful forces

that wanted them to sacrifice their children and wanted to destroy their families. What if that

was really real in the story of, you know, first the Ten Commandments coming to earth and then the

story of this, you know, Redeemer and Jesus in the New Testament coming to earth. What if that did

bring some, you know, moral beauty and order to the world in a way that kept those forces at bay?

It's a great day. and the New Testament coming to earth, what if that did bring some moral beauty and order to the world in a way that kept those forces at bay? And then look at European history, everything is consecrated, and American history too.
Sant'Angelo, San Michele, Santa Barbara, all of these places are consecrated. We were a city on a hill.
What if that was real? You know, and what if when we stopped caring about consecrating our societies and our land, and we stopped doing our part in just living morally or trying to live morally? It does allow this vulnerability in which these horrible forces can just come in and flip all these institutions.

And I saw this happening overnight.

All these institutions devoted to good things like hospitals and schools were overnight devoted to their mirror image. You know, grooming children, harming children, suffocating children with masks.
You know, we talked about the hospitals. What if there's truth that there's a a certain safety we have as a society when we consecrate ourselves and our society to a higher good? Well, I mean, it's the story of history, though.
I mean, I'm not quite done with the Old Testament. I've been reading it straight through to Jeremiah for the first time.
But it seems to me that the whole narrative so the whole narrative so far is we have this deal and when you stray from the deal, you don't have my protection anymore. Totally.
The Babylonians swoop in. The temple's destroyed twice.
Twice. For those reasons.
I mean, that's what it says. Yeah.
And so it's not a new idea at all. You're not describing anything modern.
You're describing like the story of the last 5,000 years.

Well, Tucker, you're exactly right.

I mean, I thought I was educated, but I've never read the Bible.

I had neither.

I went to college too.

Both of us with our expensive educations, we're never given that book to us from beginning to end for a class.

And I'm fortunate in that I read Hebrew and I also- You read Hebrew? I do read Hebrew. Well, that's pretty cool.
It's lucky, not perfectly, but I can. And also I can read 16th century typography because of an arcane class I took once at Oxford for my MLIT.
But point is, I've been reading the Geneva Bible, which is the Founders Bible. It predates

the King James Bible. And it's the Bible that created the Reformation, created the Puritan movement.
And it's very much more closely translated from the Hebrew than any subsequent Bible that I've read. And this has been so amazing to me, because what you just said, like it's just all laid out that's it's totally laid out right in you know in

Hebrew and then in the Geneva Bible, here's, and it's not like punitive, but there's a social contract between us and God. 100%.
And he just keeps explaining it. So many times.
That's what strikes me. I'm not reading this with anyone else.
I'm just reading it alone. I've had no input on my conclusions.
I just want to read it and see what's there. But the main thing that sticks out is the repetition.
Right. Over and over.
Oh, oh, like 10,000 times. It's like, look, it's really simple.
Right. And I don't really quite know what to make of that, but it's not a new concept.
It's the concept. It's the concept.
And here's another mind blowing thing if we're diving right in there. In the original Hebrew and in the faithful translation of the Geneva Bible, the figure, the character of God is totally different than later mistranslations of standard Bibles that we read in the West in English.
Totally different. He's not – I was taught that God is irrational, arbitrary, kind of cruel, you can't understand him, distant from human beings, different from human beings.
In the original, he's so like us, loves us, keeps trying to help us get it right, super relatable, nothing's too small for his concern, shows up, and he just keeps being written. that aspect of his character keeps being written out of later translations, like almost, I'm not

going to say intentionally but systematically and the other thing is you don't need a middleman in the original it's like god's right there you know hagar is cast out yes into the sands with her you know she's a slave woman with her baby, she goes away from the baby because she

doesn't want to watch her little son die. And there's God, you know, right there.
Or Jacob is trying to is about to cross the river, he's about to face his brother, they've had a deadly relationship with each other in the past. His family's at risk.
And it's not an angel who wrestles with Jacob. That is a mistranslation.
It's God preparing him for this confrontation with his brother. Over and over, God is written out in later iterations, and the role of the middleman is stressed, right? The priest or Moses, you know, and so later translations serve religion, but they're not accurate.
They don't depict God accurately. If we read these Bibles, and this is why the Puritans were so confident and why the, you know, the early reformers were so confident, we would never fear because, you know, we're God's children and he makes it super clear.
But he also is like, here's how I'll protect you. Do these simple things.
If you don't do these simple things, terrible things will happen. And as you say, that's the story over and over.
Again and again. And again and again, various figures in the Bible facing some very, very perilous moments.
I mean, the amount of kind of scary scenes and violence, it's like all totally shocking to me. Isn't it interesting that that's pretty much not read in churches and synagogues? Well, I'd never heard.
I went to Episcopal Church, you know, my whole life, and I never heard any of it, like any of it. Yeah.
I don't know how that happened. I went to a conservative temple my whole life.
Which is basically the same as the Episcopal Church. Totally.
So, Orthodox Jews read the text, and they're on fire. No, that's totally right.
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But I think this text is so subversive and extraordinary and revolutionary in its original form. No one would do the things that they do if they read this original text.
And they would feel so secure. Doesn't bear any resemblance to the conversations I hear about religion.
Totally. Again, I'm reading this alone, so maybe I'm missing the whole thing.
Or maybe you're getting the whole thing. Because it's very simple.
Because when you read it alone, it's very simple, right? I think it is. And remarkable.
But the number of times God tells various players in these stories, you can hear the hoofbeats in the distance and they're going to come in and burn everything and take everyone away to captivity, to slavery. Don't be afraid.
Right. Don't be afraid.
Has it had that effect on you? Are you less afraid reading this? For sure. Really? Yeah.
I love that. Because there's a lot to be afraid of right now, especially if you're spending your life as you are, looking at the details and getting a sense of the scale of what's happened.
Right. Well, I married my bodyguard, so I'm not physically afraid for that reason, even though it's a very treacherous, scary time for dissidents.
But I mean, I understand why people of faith aren't scared, because this guy in the original, this being, you know, will take care of it, maybe not here, right? But this isn't all there is. Like maybe we don't know the big picture right where we are.
But for sure, where I feel now reading this, I for sure, everyone, every individual is held in the palm of God. And God cares so much about every single person, every single person's fate, and is so sad when we, you know, stray from this very simple, easy path that he wants us to walk so that we can be close to him, right? So, yeah, I think the most courageous people I know now in this time of 1776 believe this because they can't get hurt ultimately.
Does it set your own just extraordinary and unexpected? Like, is it true for all of us? All of our life paths are extraordinary, unexpected. But does it set it into a kind of context maybe for you? Oh, that's such an interesting question.
You mean, were we born for such a time as this? Yeah, that's what I mean. Kind of.
I mean, some really scary things happened to me in my life in the past, and I didn't understand why. And now I think, well, I'm really not very scared because I've been through scary things.
And the White House doesn't scare me. DHS doesn't scare me.
Apart from that, I don't know because that would presume kind of fate. And I do believe in fate, but I also believe in free will.
And I haven't figured out how to solve that problem. I haven't either.
No, I know. If you have, let me know.
I don't. I don't.
I grew up thinking that because I'm from Southern California, so I thought Calvinism was like the most ludicrous thing I'd ever heard. And I was very offended by the concept of Calvinism.
And then I watched other people's lives and had some perspective of my own life. And I started to kind of suspect that free will wasn't the whole story.
Because I have known good people who've really suffered disproportionately and through no fault of their own. They're not the sum of their own choices, actually.
There's something else going on here. And I have also known people who don't deserve to thrive who have.
So it's obviously more complicated than my eighth grade formulation accounted for. But I don't know the answer to the question.
But I mean, people who don't deserve to thrive but do, I mean, one thing I've become very sure of is that, you know, we are accountable. And, you know, for everything that we do, that there will be a time when we're, you know, face to face with our creator and we'll have to account for what we said and did.
Like, I don't mean in a punitive way, but like, this is my life record. This is what I did on my one opportunity on this earth.

And that's partly why I know that I would rather face whatever, you know, being kicked out of cocktail parties or, you know, called names or whatever on this planet than face God and say I stood by while babies were killed and women were rendered infertile. You know, that would scare me.
Right. so I do believe that all of us are going to have that moment and not in a punitive way, but like we bring the sum of our actions with us, you know, back home essentially.
and I think if people really understood that they would want to behave in a way aligned with God's will which is a very nice friendly will

if you read the Hebrew Bible

it's not that hard to be a good person, rather than carry with them any crime, theft, you know, moral lapse, selfishness, ignorant, hatred, the kinds of things people are happy to carry on this life as long as they're doing well externally. How – I mean I assume prayer was not part of your daily life 10, 15, 20 years ago or maybe it was.
Not really. Again, like not in a way that was really integrated with my conscious self.
How do you approach it now? How do you think about it? I have concluded that, you know, that prayer is a weapon. I mean, a good one, but that it makes a difference in the world, that it does things in the world.
And for me, what little I understand about this metaphysical realm, prayer isn't, like I was taught, you have to say to God, you're so great, you're so powerful. And I'm like, what kind of God is that that needs us to be like, you're so awesome? You know, that's not very God-like, right? But I think it's the other way around.
I think that when we pray, it helps us like, you know, when we train or when we, you know, run a marathon

or when we go to the gym, it's like we're, when we pray, we're in a state in which we're able

to get closer to God, to be in more of a relationship with God and that that's for us.

And then it makes us stronger as a result.

Is it a hard discipline to pick up or a hard practice to start?

Well, I really thought it was because I felt very stupid and self-conscious.

Of course.

Talking to God.

Yes.

But I think that's the weird blessing of these horrible three years is that what I witnessed,

well, I'm skipping over a part, which I'll share, but what I was witnessing was so horrific

Thank you. That's the weird blessing of these horrible three years is that what I witnessed, well, I'm skipping over a part, which I'll share, but what I was witnessing was so horrific.
It was like opening the gates of Auschwitz in 1945. I mean, but beyond that, because of the scale, because what I haven't talked about is that in the middle of these years I'm describing, a project got started up, actually Steve Bannon's recommendation, that we convene what became 3,250 doctors and scientists to go through the Pfizer documents that were released under court order.
When the FDA lost a lawsuit, the FDA had asked the court to keep them hidden for 75 years. And these doctors and scientists, so distinguished, issued what what are now 94 reports explaining in very plain English what's in the documents and report after report brought forward such unbelievable criminality in intentional systematic crimes against humanity and against you know, babies and babies in utero and women and men and children, that I was overwhelmed that such an evil thing could have happened.
And so I had no choice but to pray because I don't think I could have kept working on this material. What was the effect on you of praying? That's such a good question.
Well, nothing's as scary, right? Yeah. And I guess, what is the effect? I mean, it makes you— You kept doing it, so obviously it worked.
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think probably the things that didn't happen to me show the effect because I was working on and am working on such disturbing, horrific material that, you know, I didn't have a nervous breakdown. I didn't become a drug addict.
Yeah. You know, my relationships didn't collapse.
So, I would say that was God's help. So let me ask you about that.
I hate asking people what their marriage is, because it's just so personal, but you've referred to your husband several times as your partner and friend and spouse and a source of strength. Have you remained aligned with him? Like, this trip you've taken into this brand new world, have you taken it together? Totally.
I mean, sometimes like, you know, honey, I can't talk about that now. It's like the weekend.
I just want to like, yeah, for a walk. Totally.
He's, he's such a warrior and his having, as I mentioned, his having been in very dangerous situations really helps me, pardon me, because, A, he's a wonderful strategist, so he'll explain to me kind of what the battlefield is. But also, like when I want to whine and say, you know, I'm tired of this, like I want to stop, he'll say wars last for years.
It is not a battle. It's a war.
And the war of independence lasted for years. And it's helpful because I'm not a soldier.
I'm not trained as a soldier. So I just want there to be a battle and then we're done and shopping.
A dramatic climax and then we can have a cocktail and talk about it. No, I feel the same way.
Wow, how inspiring is that? Oh, I'm so lucky. Yeah.
I was going to ask you all these policy questions, but I just think what's happened to you personally is so much more interesting than any of that. Have you talked about any of this? The spiritual direction you've taken and all all that have you talked about it in public um interestingly when i wrote a sub stack about evil and god that's all people wanted to talk to me about for quite a while because i've had exactly the same experience really yes and i came at it from exactly the same perspective that you did it's's very spooky to hear that, to hear you say that you came at it effectively backwards, or at least backwards from the way I thought it worked, where you see this negative thing and you ask yourself, well, what is that? It's clearly not human.
It's clearly supernatural. Right.
But you don't, no matter how many times you go to church, you don't really believe there's a supernatural realm that acts on the natural world like that's crazy but it clearly is so i just think that's so interesting so when you wrote about this on substack or on your point about evil what did people say in response well they just wanted well the left doesn't talk to me anymore at all so they didn't say anything but and they pretend i don't exist so yeah that was silence. But, but that brings up a really interesting point too, Tucker, because you know how in Exodus, the children, the firstborn of, of the Egyptians are taken and the houses of the children of Israel are kind of skipped over.
Yes. Their children live.
Passed over, we might say. Right.
Right. Exactly.
I've literally for the last two years and I haven't said this in public but I've really

seen this are kind of skipped over. Yes.
Their children live. Passed over, we might say.
Right, right, exactly.

I've literally, for the last two years,

and I haven't said this in public,

but I've really seen this thing that can't be explained, again,

except kind of supernaturally,

that the people who don't turn to God

in some way haven't been able to hear

the very important information that is coming forward about how to protect your family, how to save yourself. And the people who have turned to God in some way, their ears are open.
Yes. And they're the ones who are hearing the message about how, well, in my case, how dangerous these injections are.
And I get these emails, you know, thank you for saving my grandchild. Thank you for saving my daughter-in-law.
It's not me that they should thank. It's Amy Kelly, who's leading this charge and the volunteers.
But nonetheless, I take their point. But what I'm experiencing is half the country who identify as God's people in some way are hearing this life-saving information and half, you know, their ears are stopped.
They cannot hear it. They can't even hear it when you say it to them directly.
It's still like a magical thing. That, I mean, I don't want to pose as a Bible scholar since I'm the opposite of a Bible scholar, but I'm a noticer of patterns and the line you just used, the words come but they can can't hear them.
Right. That is a recurring line.

Totally.

Throughout the entire text so far.

Totally.

Totally.

Well, we just read Exodus and God said, I will harden Pharaoh's heart.

Yes.

We'll make him stubborn.

I will make him.

And these horrible things have a litany of disasters.

Right.

Some of them grotesque.

And Pharaoh just doesn't get the point.

Just let these people go. Right.
Everything will be fine. Yeah, no.
So I can't explain that. But I'm sorry, what was your – what was your – I can't remember.
I was so absorbed in what you were saying. Oh, my question was when you describe your journey – I hate that word.
I'm embarrassed to use the word journey. It didn't used to be a cliche.
I know, I know. But it is, and I'm trying to rid all cliches from my mouth and heart.
Just what happened to you and how your thinking has deepened on this. Did you get a lot of people who say, wow, I had the same experience? Yes, but not the people I used to be closest to.
Yes. They have no idea what I'm talking about.
They think I'm weird. Yes.
No, I don't know if they think I'm weird. But no, absolutely.
I mean, this is happening, you know, across the country and probably around the world. That's really my question.
Do you sense that? Yes, I do. People say, I'm so glad you're talking about these metaphysical dark forces because I feel them too.
Or I'm so glad you're... People who never were, who left organized religion behind totally secular are feeling, I don't know what to say, an awakening.
But it's not like a fake trite socially normative awakening. It's like a genuine blossoming of their hearts in ways that it surprised even them.
Especially them. Especially them, yes.
I am definitely seeing that. And I guess what I would say, and I'm so glad there's a little bit of hope, because the last few years have been so horrible, but if you wonder why would humanity be targeted in this way, because we haven't even gone into what my team has found, right? The catastrophic, the strokes, the neurological disorders, the paralysis, the arthritic disorders, the sudden deaths, the poisoning of babies, the killing of babies in utero, like, it's all in the Pfizer documents at industrial scale.
And they knew this rolling it out, you know, the White House covering up myocarditis in minors in April of 2021, having a freakout communications meeting to cover it up, crime after crime after crime. You look at this and think, why would God abandon humanity in this way and create such a terrible, why would God let humanity have such terrible crime committed against it at global scale? But then now, looking not back, but in the midst of it, I can't think of another circumstance in which the sheep were separated from the goats, in effect, in which you had to choose.
Are you going to go along with the crime, or are you going to speak up for humanity? Are you going to walk with the devil, or Satan, or whatever, Baal and Moloch, or are you going to walk with God? You know, you couldn't be neutral. You had to choose.
And also, you know, this force came at the human body and face, which I do believe is made in the image of God. Like, I literally believe that now.
And what would make people think, oh, wow, I'm not going to, you know, this is such a treasure. I've been born into a human body.
I have a human life. You know, we have this beautiful planet.
We have family. We have, you know, intimacy, closeness, prayer, song.
I'm going to cherish that. You know, I'm not going to take that for granted anymore.
They're gifts from God. I can't

think of another circumstance to wake people up in the way that people are waking up, as horrible as it's been. That's incredible.
For people who've made it for the last whatever hour and whatever it's been, who want to hear more from you, how can they find it? Thank you. They can go to dailyclout.io, which is my news site that helps people engage with democracy.
The Pfizer documents reports are all on the upper left-hand corner there for free. They can come to my substack, which is called Outspoken.
And they can order the Pfizer book and they can also order facing the

beast if they like.

Is that sold on Amazon?

Yes.

For now.

Yes.

For now.

Yes.

Well,

that was kind of not the conversation I expected.

It was about a hundred times better and I'm grateful that you came.

I mean,

well,

thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.