Stop It: VDH's Interview with Author Jeremy Carl

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Hello, this is the Victor Davis Hansen Show.

I'm solo today.

Neither Jack nor Sammy are with me, but an old friend is, Jeremy Carl, who was a colleague of mine for years at the Hoover Institution.

And he's written a great book, The Unprotected Class.

Listen to the subtitle, How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart.

Jeremy, welcome here to the Victor David Sanson Show.

Thanks so much, Victor.

It's a pleasure to be on.

Why don't you just,

I know you were working at Stanford University.

You got involved

with George Schultz's many projects, some on energy, some on other issues.

Why don't you just tell our listeners what your background is and how you came to write this book?

Yeah, it's a little bit eclectic.

And most of my kind of formal background would not suggest that

I would have been the guy to write this book, but kind of informally, yes.

So I did my undergrad at Yale and I was very involved in campus politics there and ran the political union

and then subsequently did a master's over at the Kennedy School at Harvard, but had gone to Stanford to do a doctorate and then wound up at Hoover.

And my kind of policy area of expertise had been energy and environmental policy.

And I wound up serving as Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Interior after my time at Hoover under President Trump and sort of doing all sorts of things with that.

But even while I was at Hoover, I began to get involved and interested in, again, a lot of the issues that originally had motivated me in terms of politics, a much broader set of things.

And I'd written a lot about immigration.

I'd written a lot about national identity and multiculturalism and race politics.

And,

you know, honestly, what just happened is I kind of ended up going to the Claremont Institute, moved to Montana and was kind of working remotely there.

And I just decided, you know, nobody is writing this book, which I think is on a really important topic that has some level of taboo associated with it.

But,

you know, I feel like I'm in a good position both intellectually and otherwise to write it.

So I'm going to write it.

And

that's what

I found one of the most, before we get to it, I found one of the most fascinating arguments is what is white.

I mean,

at times in your book, you make the argument that

we're a multiracial, intermarried society.

But if you take just one of the examples that you focused, but you focused on a lot of them, of Native Americans.

It's not that they're becoming more fertile or numerous, but the people within that community with a multiracial background, and maybe this is true for all of

it's the

current environment induces people to identify as non-white, and therefore the non-white population is seen by the media as much bigger.

But under traditional rubrics or given the climate of the past, that might not be so.

Is that an accurate summation that that's also a phenomenon that's that people have underappreciated?

Yeah, I think that's absolutely correct.

And it's almost the reverse of the white privilege arguments that are often made.

I mean, 100 years ago, when there really probably was something that we could talk about as white privilege, if you could pass as white, and there's certainly plenty of books among light-skinned African Americans, you know, kind of documenting this, you did.

Whereas now, if you can pass as anything other than white, you do that because there's all sorts of advantages typically for education and employment.

And so I point out, you know, just since I think 1970, the number of Native Americans is up 10x.

And again, it's not because of fertility.

It's because of, hey, it's advantageous to be Native American.

And you even have among Cherokee, you can be as little as 164th Cherokee by blood, so to speak, and still be self-identified as Cherokee.

That's how Elizabeth Warren, who actually was not an enrolled member, got into trouble.

But there really is a flight from whiteness going on.

And there is.

I guess people, in the old days, under racist Jim Crow, if you had

a percentage of white so-called blood in that racist system, you wanted to pass for white.

Now it's the reverse true.

You want to pass for being non-white.

And superficial appearance doesn't seem to determine your ethnic identity.

Right.

And I...

Right.

And I think there's actually some hope in that because I think we could choose to define things in a way that would sort of reconstitute a sort of American majority identity if we stopped encouraging people to identify as something other than with the historic majority population, even though they might be 80% white by

racial background, to the extent that has a meaningful definition.

So right now, the Democrats have kind of found it very advantageous to slice and dice the American population in as thin slices as they can and kind of turn that all against whiteness.

And there are much better ways that we could go about doing things.

You have in the book, and

I urge everybody to buy it,

it's not, this is a very scholarly, historically based book.

But one of the things I was fascinated, you do in passing, and then I think it's chapters, I recall, there goes the neighborhood, but you have a lot about the Obamas.

Do you see that that period between 2009 and 2000,

let's just say all the way into 2015, when they, that word that had been an academic patois, diversity, it really became mainstream.

And all of a sudden, the old binary of black, white, 90, or 88, 12, or whatever, it was now there was

70, 30, and there was, and class was just forgotten.

I mean, there were people who were very wealthy from Spain that could fill their R's.

But

you devote a lot to the Obamas.

Do you see that as a watershed administration that unfortunately really started to re-emphasize race and detour where maybe we had been going otherwise?

Yeah, I think that's a fair statement, Victor.

And in fact, in 2008, Obama kind of, at least superficially, was allowed to run as this unifier.

Now, those of us who were a little more discerning about his actual record, or even his rhetoric, knew that that's not really what we were going to get.

However, he kind of

stayed in his lane for his first term because he wanted to get reelected, like most politicians do.

But what you really see, and you see this in the survey data, this is just not my being

kind of giving you an anecdote.

You see very clearly in the social science survey data around 2013, so right around the time that Obama is re-elected, and you begin to have the Michael Brown case in Missouri, which is hands up, don't shoot, and then the Trayvon Martin case right around here in Obama's second term, you begin to see what some folks have called the Great Awokening, which is a play on words of the Great Awakening, which is historical religious revivals in the United States.

But basically, everything just becomes dramatically more woke, dramatically more anti-white.

And you really see this in terms of attitudes dramatically in the survey data starting in 2013 around, really accelerating, particularly right after George Floyd.

And it's come down a little bit from that post-Floyd plateau, but it's still really way, way, way higher than it was in the pre-Obama years.

Yeah.

You also have

a lot of references to Trump of all different and

in useful ways in a variety of contexts.

Do you see that this strange phenomenon that's unfolding right at the time of your book is coming out

that we're starting, and I live in an area where it's about 95% Mexican Americans you're starting to see class reassert itself say with Latino men that are high school graduates and have not gone to college or have not graduated I think

I some of the the stats are amazing 60 to 70 percent of Hispanic males without high school diplomas or college degrees say that they're going to vote maybe for Trump and the entire community might be 45, 55 one way or the other.

Do you see there's a chance that class will reassert itself so that people in the inner city at one day might say, I have more in common with a guy in East Palestine than Oprah or John Lamon?

That seems to be a subtext of some of the optimism in your book a little bit.

Yeah, I think

that's a totally fair statement.

And you're seeing this not just obviously out where you live.

And again, you've obviously very heavily heavily Mexican-American area.

I was talking with an Anglo-friend from San Antonio about this kind of, you know, a guy who's in his 60s.

And he was saying of the Hispanics he went to high school with, and he went to school with a lot because San Antonio has been a majority Hispanic city for quite a while.

He says they are more pro-Trump than the white people.

And so I do think that there is a move based on class and culture.

And we even saw this starting in 2020, where Trump won some of these heavily, heavily Hispanic counties that are sort of more working class counties in South Texas, where Republicans had never even been competitive.

So you are seeing that, and that's a positive move.

And it's one of the reasons why the Democrats are eager to push the racial division button up to 11 to keep white Hispanics.

And this is a way that Hispanics can identify themselves from identifying that way and everything else, because they don't want to see any sort of unification that might have a discussion around class rather than simply blaming white people around race and unifying people around that.

That's another good point.

You talk a lot in the book and have a discussion about this

unprotected class, especially coming out of academia, the 1619 project.

Who is and what is the motivation and who is really at the tip of the spear spear of this?

Is it

elite academics?

Is it mostly the white bi-coastal class that's pushing this

with the assumption they'll never suffer the consequences of their own ideology?

Is it elite blacks and Latinos?

But they seem to be the people pushing the

white privilege, white hate, white this, white this, seem to be

people in the media, academia, and all from the upper classes.

Is that true?

Not that people on the street don't enjoy it, maybe in some cases, but it does seem like it's a top-down phenomenon.

Yeah, I think that's fair.

And in fact, the sequel to this book that I want to write, I've kind of already begun on it to some degree, is to look at these white leftists.

And I don't want to kind of take away agency from minority communities because there's been plenty of bad ethnic minority political leadership on this too.

And it absolutely matters, although it certainly hasn't been universal.

But I definitely think that the great Satan, if you will, here really has been these leftist whites.

And I think when you kind of decompose that problem, there's a couple things going on.

They do tend to be kind of more affluent,

kind of coastal elites.

You see two things.

One is if you've got $50 million,

you can talk about white privilege.

You can give away, quote unquote, your white privilege, or do other things.

It's a little bit of what the younger kids call a flex.

You know, they can sort of afford to kind of conspicuously show their high class by saying, you know, they know they can get around whatever the negative consequences would be.

But of course, for working class or middle class whites, or even upper middle class whites, they don't share that same privilege.

So I think that's one dynamic at play among white and elites.

And then the other one is honestly a little more mysterious.

And that's where we don't have as great an answer yet to me, which is you see very clearly, again, in the social science survey data

that basically if you look at in-group or out-group preferences, in other words, how much do you like your own group versus others?

And you break that down by ideology and race for every group.

Everybody has an in-group preference, which you would expect.

And as long as that's not kind of out of control, it's not a problem, right?

Like you like people who look a little more like you.

The one exception to this is liberal whites.

And liberal whites, when you survey them, they they think that whites are stupider, more criminal, you know, you name it.

Like they actually really dislike other white people, other white people without their privilege and money.

Well, and that's what it may be.

It's almost like they view it as like a different people, not it's not really in reference to them.

The Pete Buttigig East Palestine dichotomy, maybe, huh?

Yeah, no, no, no.

That's maybe a good name for it.

But you have.

We're going to get to

take a break right now, but when we get back,

we're going to get to some of the advocacies or some of the things that Jeremy explores that can be done.

We'll be right back.

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We're back with Jeremy Carl.

He's the author of the just release, The Unprotected Class, How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart.

When you see

this constant drumbeat, the other day I turned on just to see, I always survey MSNBC, CNN to see what they left, read things, and when you look at that view and they just matter of factly just talk about white this, white that, as this 250 million person collective, as if there's no individuals, always in a negative response.

And you're starting to see, and when we had that infamous Milley testimony and Austin got before Congress and they said, you know, we got a, there's white rage and we've got to hunt it out, white privilege.

And they had a,

I think they've never found anything, according to the report released last December, that, in fact, there was not an organized cabal of white privileged racists in in the military.

But one of the things that happened,

there are

40,000 recruits short.

And when I looked at the demographics, it's not Latinos or women or blacks that have fallen off.

It's this multi-generational white family, typical white family that fought in the First Gulf War or Vietnam and then First Gulf War, Afghanistan.

And I don't know whether it's the humiliation in Afghanistan or they're just not joining up, but it's primarily a white, lower, and middle-class falloff.

And I was just wondering,

do you see things like that that are happening that are people either are disengaging or they're moving to red states or they're not joining the military or it's kind of a passive?

I don't know what it is, but I'm getting the sense that

there's a lot of people that have had it.

And

there's going to be, I think it's important.

That's why I mentioned your chapter about on the way home.

It's important to find avenues that you suggest to bring people to their senses before people get so furious that they're not reasonable.

And I think the more that it's pushed, the more we're getting into dangerous territory.

Absolutely.

So, I mean, you brought up a bunch of things there.

So let me kind of take them one at a time.

So I do, as you know, have a whole chapter on the military in the book.

And I talk exactly, or actually, I can't remember whether I actually got the shortfall in.

That may have come, I've written about it, but I think it actually came after my pub deadline.

But as you point out, we've had this huge shortfall in military recruiting.

When you look, this is exclusively

concentrated among white Americans.

Now, look, I mean, obviously, you're obviously a military historian.

You're very familiar with these issues.

This would be bad for any group if we were kind of selecting them out of the military.

But white Americans, as I document in the book, are disproportionately likely to be the tip of the spear, so-called.

In other words, they are much more likely to be in the most dangerous combat jobs, special forces, et cetera, et cetera.

So you're taking a group that is disproportionately served as kind of your leading fighting force, and you're telling them that kind of you're not interested in them.

And this is more than,

I mean, we are seeing this, but it's more than anecdotal.

But just to give you an anecdote, I was literally in church this week and a gentleman who I didn't even really know that well,

but he came up to me and he said, look, you know, I read your book.

I really loved it.

I'm an Air Force veteran.

And basically, until they get all of this anti-white stuff out of the military, I am not telling anybody to sign up for the military.

And this was a guy, I think, who was probably a career Air Force guy who was saying this.

So we have this.

It's obviously particularly concerning when it hits something as fundamental as your fighting force in your country.

But kind of beyond the military, and you touched on this at the end of your comments,

I didn't just kind of write this.

I mean, A, I didn't write this to whine to the referees.

I mean,

I wrote it to have white people to like have maybe a little more self-respect and not put up with some of the garbage that's going on.

But I really did write it for everybody, because if we don't

kind of tone down some of this anti-white racism and begin treating people equally regardless of race, we are going to get in some very, very dangerous territory that a lot of other multi-ethnic countries have gotten in, much to their regret.

Yeah, and

when you look at,

I've had some conversations with people in the military who've been very defensive.

And as I pointed out to them,

They collect racial, ethnic, sexual orientation, gender data on almost every aspect of military recruitment and promotion and retention.

But when you look at the dead, especially in Afghanistan and Iraq,

it's very hard to find, but you can find it.

And it's 73%

to 75%, depending on Afghanistan and Iraq, white males.

And that's double their numbers in the demographic.

So it doesn't seem very smart for people like Austin or Milley to sort of blanketly accuse this demographic that's dying at twice their numbers in the general population.

And it's suicidal.

And yet

I'm just going to update them.

Have you noticed, though, Jeremy, that seems like the latest commercial, the latest

batch of commercials that have come out the last two months, they're showing people fighting and jumping out of helicopters rather than pregnant.

It seems like they understand that.

They're going back to military readiness rather than, you know, look like America and we're diverse.

Yeah, I mean, I i think there's clearly been a a reconstitution of the public the pr stance but the question is whether that uh kind of manifests itself in a change in the actual reality in the service and again one interesting thing i was talking to another friend of mine who's a retired army colonel uh not that uh pretty recently retired and he was telling me you know it's not so bad these racial issues i mean kind of at the enlisted level and even at the sort of lower to mid to middle upper officer level.

But when you get to the general level, then the wokeness just gets really, really extreme.

And we kind of have an adverse selection going on in terms of what we should be selecting for versus what we are selecting for.

Do you think that one of the things that people have to, I mean,

I'm very careful not to get into it, but when you look at the FBI crime statistics, and I must say that it's very very hard to rely on the FBI because a lot of communities refuse to contribute to the FBI data bank about crime information.

And I think it's back to 2019.

It hasn't been, but when you look at rare interracial, and Heather McDonald has really been a voice in the wilderness, but say a violent assault, I think only 7 or 8% of all violent assaults are interracial.

But when you look at that 7 or 8%, it's 6 to 1

black onto white rather than white being the perpetrator.

And then when you look at hate crimes,

the most recent it suggests that Jews make up almost half of the victims, and people who are non-white are overrepresented in their demographic, and whites aren't as perpetrators.

And what I'm getting at is when you look at whether it's anecdotal, what's happened after George Floyd with the defunded police, no bail, critical legal theory, and the actual ramifications on on the ground.

Nobody,

and that's coupled with this white this, white this, white this, white this.

But then the average person looks at the television or they read and they see that overwhelmingly the violent crime

is

perpetrated by non-white people, at least in numbers greater than their demographics, and that the

the victims of rare, because most of the victims are within one race, but when that is not true, they tend to be overrepresented as victims and underrepresented as perpetrators.

And that narrative of a dangerous white raging violent population is not borne out by the statistics.

But yet

why don't we talk?

We can't talk about that.

Is that right?

Well, my view is we can and we should.

And so I just do in the book, and I don't do it in an inflammatory way, but I just put out some of the numbers.

And as you point out, Heather McDonald, who was another really kind supporter and endorser of the book, has really been a pathbreaker in terms of some of the work that she's done there.

But you see this really dramatically.

And kind of when you break it down in terms of real things like stranger homicide and stranger rape murder.

So in other words, like, who's going to pick you up off the street and rape you and kill you?

Like, then it gets even more.

more extreme.

And in fact, even some of the people who claim to debunk the anti-white crime statistics don't kind of understand how extreme some of them are.

And then there's this kind of element of it that also gets into what I would call a blood libel against whites.

And you really saw this with the Stop Asian Hate movement, in which a bunch of Asian American, not just the NGO leaders, you expect like the left-wing NGO leaders to be crazy, but there were prominent Asian American business leaders in Silicon Valley kind of taking up when there were these actual anti-Asian hate crimes that were absolutely deplorable

happening.

And they're kind of

blaming Donald Trump saying kung flew and all this stuff.

But when you look at the actual data, this is African-American perpetrators, generally speaking.

It's happening not in places like Texas, but in red states, but in places like California.

And what basically you have going is

a group of affluent Asian Americans deciding to blame kind of middle and working class whites for something they have nothing to do with.

So, you know, I also want to make sure we don't just kind of talk about things in terms of black and white, because the problems, unfortunately, go deeper than that in terms of how much we've let white people be scapegoated.

And do you think just to veer a little bit off, and I'll get back to the book in a second, but

events since the completion of the manuscript that you see on these campuses,

it's also a non-spoken reality.

But a lot of the animus, and I see it just now.

I mean, yesterday, I don't know if you saw that Palestinian person say to a Jewish person,

you know, you're white, we don't like whites in UCLA, and yet she was whiter than he was.

Yeah.

And I guess what I'm saying is that

the DEI movement has really been behind, or at least heavily involved in the anti-Semitism on campus under the guise of pro-Palestinian or pro-Hamas,

or, you know, we can't be racist because we are victims.

But

one of the strange things about it is it's a dilemma for a lot of Jews who are left-wing because they see that this DEI thing that they have supported at its root is anti-Semitic.

And

Israel is the white settler settler colonial.

And Jews are back to the stereotype of the pawnbroker and all.

It's really

at the heart of DEI is anti-Semitism, it seems.

Yeah, oh, absolutely.

And, you know, for those of us who've been kind of pointing this out to some of those guys for a long time, it's sort of frustrating to watch, but at least I think more of them are getting it.

You see a guy like Bill Ackman, a very prominent hedge fund guy who was very involved in the ouster of the president of Harvard for some of the anti-Semitism there.

And he's, you know, he's a wealthy hedge fund billionaire and very involved in combating anti-Semitism.

And he's come out and said, I might vote for Trump, and I absolutely will not vote for Biden.

And this is a guy who's been a longtime Democrat donor.

But I think while there is certainly kind of anti-Semitism as it, just pure anti-Semitism.

in these movements and i don't want to just totally make that go away i think most of the anti-semitism quote unquote that we're seeing in these places is downstream of anti-whiteness Yeah, I do too.

I think that's

really good point.

One of the themes of your

everybody, when you get the book, you should look at, it's not just an analysis or a diagnosis or even a prognosis, it's a symptomology and a therapy as well.

And he's got a lot of things that people can do.

We don't have time to get through them all, but one of them is not to be shy,

but to call people out on everything, whether it's what's behind the immigration, open borders, the 10 million, what's behind affirmative action diversity.

But my question to you is, when you've done that, obviously, because this book came out of your research, but also maybe things in your personal life.

What's your experience when you've had interviews or you've met people who disagree with you from

that were non-white and

do they feel that you'll back down?

Do they feel that you won't be able to say this?

Or when you are candid and you try to make a rational argument, what's the reaction?

Well, I think first of all, I mean, just to speak to my motivations first, I mean, I dedicated the book to my kids, and that's why I wrote it.

You know, it's like, for me, like everything's great.

I'm able to manage.

I've had a really good education, professional background.

My life's really good.

But I kind of look at the next generation and I'm like, wow, the place we're heading is

not good.

And it's not good, obviously, just for people who look like my kids, but I think for all Americans, no matter what they look like.

I've actually done a number of interviews already with non-white journalists, podcast hosts, et cetera.

And even when there's been disagreement, and I plead pretty much every ethnic background, I think, at this point, even when there's been disagreement, I think it's been respectful.

I haven't yet,

I'm hopeful that this book will break out into the full level where the New York Times needs to tell everybody how bad they are for reading it.

But it hasn't, you know, in its first week, I don't think it's there quite yet, even though it's been doing really, really well.

And so I think when the true leftists kind of seize on it, I'm sure they'll find all sorts of ways to call me names and

to go after me.

But I think one of the strengths of the book is that I really,

even in the editorial process, the best thing I think we did is anything that kind of got flowery or overheated in terms of rhetoric, we just took it out.

And it was a sort of race ipsiloquitor situation.

But, you know, the thing, it speaks for itself.

So I've got almost a thousand references in here.

I'm just telling the story in as even-handed away as I know and letting the chips fall where they may.

And I think it's, you know, it's hard to poke holes in this thesis.

That's just my view.

Yeah.

Well, I know I wrote Mexifornia in 2003, and the book was part research and part memoir about growing up with being a distinct minority.

I think there were eight of us in a,

oh, fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, and the rest were all Mexican-American, about 200.

But, and I have a brother who married a Mexican-American woman, another brother has Mexican-American children.

And yet, the focus of that book was, if you would close the border, and you touch on that yourself.

If you would close the border, the process of the melting pot would reassert itself.

And then we wouldn't have this tribalism that would be completely infused every generation with four, five, eight million people who are very impoverished and welcomed in by the left as potential allies in the Affirmative Action DEI

project.

But I've noticed when I wrote that, I said it was going to get worse, but

I thought it was a very temperate, but boy,

I can remember going to the University of Oregon and having the entire first three rows jump up with placards and I couldn't see the audience and just with Mexicornia with a, you know, like a bullseye.

And then I walked on campus at Cal State and the voice of Otsalon had my picture in a bullseye, you know, like a target scope.

And it was number one.

And I went to the president at the time and objected and he said, what do you expect?

And so it was pretty.

It was pretty,

and I lived here in this area.

And even though the book was ecumenical, it was, we've all got to get along and not emphasize race.

It's incidental, not essential who we are.

We're intermarried and similar.

Boy,

I hope that's true.

But if it's my smaller experience as anything, you're going to have to be very careful because you have a rendezvous with a lot of people who feel, as in my case, not that they disagreed with the book or could refute it, but they felt the book endangered their career trajectories.

You know what I mean?

That they're having what was then an affirmative action, or La Raza, or they were professors and people in the media.

I think it's now the DEI, huge industry.

And if your book,

which I think is very, very persuasive, and if people were to read the book and be sympathetic to the argument that logical extension is, as you point out, we wouldn't need affirmative action.

We wouldn't,

DEI would, and that would threaten

thousands of careers.

And I don't see them going out from the sunset easily.

No, I think that's right.

And Mexifornia was a great book and certainly a book that was influential in my own thinking when I began to think a little more seriously about these issues.

And look, I mean, the reality is this book has been on the market now for a week.

So it's, I'm just in the honeymoon phase.

I know that they're going to come after me, especially because I've sold enough already that it looks like we're going to achieve escape velocity on this book.

You know, just a question of kind of how big it'll be.

So they'll be after me and I'm ready for that.

But as you point out, I'm sure it won't be pleasant.

And I'm probably not going to go out of my way to give a bunch of talks at universities about the book for that reason.

But I think I'm also glad that you touched on this issue of immigration because closing the border and deporting the illegal aliens who are here is, I think, a sine poinon of like, you know, you just have to start with that as a way to kind of stop digging the hole that we're in.

And I don't think it's a coincidence that in the wake of the Johnson-Reed Act of 1924, which was the most restrictive immigration act that we've had in American history, you wind up right before Hart Seller, which is 1965, which was the act that gave us our kind of current multicultural immigration policy.

It's almost the stereotypical in the commercials, you know, all-American, everybody together

sort of way of looking at things.

And I'm not suggesting, of course, that there were no social problems, but I think what the slowdown of immigration did during that time and the lack of change of demographics is you did that combined with the experience of World War II, throwing a bunch of people together and kind of unifying them that way.

You wound up with particularly a European-descended population in the U.S.

that was unified in terms of its cultural outlook to an unprecedented degree.

And I think if we're going to do anything like that with our current multicultural country, and we're not going to stop being a multicultural country, the only way to really do that is to get control of our immigration system in a very serious way.

Yeah, I think so.

And all of these topics, everybody, that we're discussing there,

the military, immigration, diversity, they're all subjects of lengthy argument and analysis as book chapters.

One thing that I found was your

chapter 14 on the end games, reparations, because I think everybody's,

I mean, take California.

Gavin Newsome, our governor, has this racial

reparations committee when we're $76 billion

in hockey, and we were a free state.

We have a very small African-American population compared to many states.

I think it's less than 3% now.

27% of the state was not born in the United States.

And these arguments like this just seem self-evident.

They just speak to them to themselves.

And

what is your prognosis of it?

Do you think this is just a boutique issue?

Because in the past, I thought that BLM would go nowhere.

I thought it was so ridiculous.

And I knew that the original architects had sort of

they founded it as kind of a lesbian, black, feminist movement that was

brown.

That thing was taken over.

But I never thought, saw it, what happened.

I never saw what was going to happen in 2020.

Do you think that people should discount reparations?

A country's 35 trillion in debt.

It's so divisive.

It has nothing to do with class.

We don't know whether somebody's 1 16th, 1 30th, 1 8th would get money from whom.

Would Oprah get it?

There's so many crazy questions.

Do you see, is it just a boutique issue that's just a conversational speech?

Or is it something that people should worry about that it's going to get a moment

well i i wish it were a boutique issue and i think there's obviously the temptation to look at it this way but i think like many of the things and i mentioned this in the book you know that seemed like absurd left-wing californiaisms like when gavin newsom is illegally marrying gay couples in his san francisco home and then 11 years later the Supreme Court says it's actually mandatory nationwide.

Nothing we see suggests that this is actually stopping.

And in fact, in California, my understanding is they recently just had a panel that they've now are going to go about trying to figure out, you know, what percentage of you is descended from slaves to figure out how much reparations you might be entitled to.

And I think underlying a lot of this conflict, I kind of argue.

And the one, the one

ancient Greek element that I put in the book is I talk about ideas not springing out fully armored like Athena from Zeus's head.

I mean, there's sort of reasons that these things have gestated.

And basically, I think in 2024, you can't just go up to groups and say, hey, I want your stuff in America.

That's not like considered polite.

So you need to have what the late sociologist C.

Wright Mills would call a legitimating ideology.

And that is white privilege, white supremacy, all these other things that justify why we're going to take your stuff.

And I think that reparations in that way are kind of the end game.

And it's not just reparations, by the way.

It's the land back movement among some Native Americans.

It's people who are even contesting things around the Mexican-American war.

And I think, unfortunately, if we're not careful, this is just going to come down to power politics.

And if groups think they can extract resources, that's what they're going to do.

Well, what I'm saying, Jeremy, is that it seems to that this drive for DEI, it's infecting Hollywood, the movies.

It's infecting Boeing, 50% of not of the people who apply for pilot training, but who graduate must be DI.

MyROS, the great shipping company that was involved in the wreck, I'm not saying it was caused by DI, but their website is basically an advertisement for DEI rather than what particular degree or experience would make you a good ship captain.

And what I'm getting at is

It seems that two things are happening.

One is that people are dropping out, and I mentioned that earlier.

They're not watching the Oscars, they're not watching the Tony's, they're not watching the Emmys because they feel that they're not meruced or that they're aimed with a political position point of view.

Even the NBA I was looking the other day at

the Final Four NBA when Michael Jordan was playing, it was almost 35 million people watched that.

And he was kind of a healing figure.

Everybody liked Michael Jordan.

And then when you s got into the Colin Kaepernick aftermath of LeBron James,

the audience was 5 million.

It's

one seventh.

And it seems to me that the more that this goes on, the more that these institutions, people just,

they're not attending them.

They're not subscribing to them.

They've just tuned them out.

Yeah, people are doing them.

Because you mentioned that in the book, and I thought everybody would like to have you expand on that, especially your

great chapter on that's entertainment.

Yeah, no, in the entertainment chapter, and again, I think the average reader will have no idea the level to which the Oscars are now no longer about merit, but about like how many diversity boxes you can check to even be eligible.

And then the way, and again, the people who've documented this actually are not conservatives like me.

They're left-wing academics who look at the representation of women and minorities in such a media.

And what they find is that white people are tend to be represented much more negatively in media.

And in fact, there's even a Twitter feed that I mentioned called, I believe White People Are Stupid in Commercials that is entirely devoted to what's become a cliche

almost in the industry of the bumbling white guy,

you know, who does something stupid in the commercial and is saved by the wiser minority, usually a younger person.

It's almost the reserve mirror image of the racist steppe and fetching, isn't it?

Yeah, no, it is.

And it's all sort of reversed.

And again, I think a lot of people have no idea to the extent to which this has infected all these institutions.

And so what you're seeing, and I'm even seeing this a little bit with my older kids, they begin to look at what their professional lives may look like someday, that people are particularly white kids, but I think other people are just looking at alternative pathways or schools like Stanford and Columbia and Harvard, people are looking at the riots and they're like, you know, there's actually a prestige drop that's really meaningful that has happened and people are looking for something better in which merit will be more rewarded.

Yeah, and you can see it, as we mentioned this broadcast, with the Hillsdale admissions, they're just skyrocketing.

And their biggest problem is that the institution is designed its physical space and faculty to accommodate 15 to 1700 students.

And

the number of students that meet their admissions requirements, which are pretty much comparable to what Oberlin or Brown used to be, much better.

They could expand that college by a magnitude, maybe 10 times.

They're just being swarmed by people who are not all conservatives either.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So that's where do you to kind of wind up things, Jeremy, where do you see all this going?

Are you optimistic or do you feel that we're going to have to go through,

because

it's not being spoken about, it's not being confronted, it's not being cross-examined, it's not being checked or pushed back.

Do we have to go through a contentious period to come out on the other side?

Or is it going to, are people going to wise up in the DI and say, you know what, we pushed this too long.

We understand that.

I don't see that happening.

Do you?

Well, I both am maybe, I don't know that that I go so far as to say I'm optimistic, is that I'm not, I don't think that things are doomed.

I think that there is going to be a contentious period here, inevitably.

I think raising my book, you know, writing my book will be a part of that dialogue.

I hope it's going to start that dialogue in a more meaningful sense.

But there's no way that the left is not going to give up.

this little game they're playing until they recognize that there are real consequences and costs to them to playing it.

So, you know, the right needs to get tougher.

They need to crack down on this stuff.

White people need to stop apologizing for existing.

That's another reason I sort of wrote this book to kind of that we should stop doing this to ourselves.

But at the end of the day, I am optimistic.

America has dealt with far worse than this in its history.

And I think, again, I have lots of recommendations in the book for things that we can do.

And I think that we can ultimately overcome this issue.

America is still a country with enormous strengths that the vast majority of other countries would kill to have.

And we have a tradition that is better than what we're doing right now.

And we just need to reclaim that vision of what America should be.

And we'll be in a much better slate going forward.

I tend to agree.

And I think I mentioned that in a podcast earlier, that it seems to me that black conservatives are sort of like French conservative intellectuals, that

they have to be better than everybody else to survive in France.

And when you read,

like a Raymond Aran or somebody like that, even Camus's latest users, they're brilliant people, much smarter than the left.

And when I read, you know, and I'd had lunch with Tom for 16 years, Tom Sowell or Shelby Steele, or you talked to Kyron Skinner, these are all Hoover colleagues of ours.

They're among the best of the best, of, you know, race is just immaterial.

And it seems to me that

out of this cauldron, we've created or or have emerged a lot of brilliant black conservatives.

And they're not, I don't even want to use that word, but black intellectuals that were not given anything because of their race.

And they made it despite.

As one of them said to me,

it was very funny.

I said to him, what's your take on it?

And he said, well, I used to.

When I was growing up in the 60s, I always went to a black doctor.

I said, why?

Because you were black?

And he said, no, because it was so hard to be a black doctor.

And

they had to be good because

they were in white medical schools and there were discriminatory practices, and yet they made it.

And nobody wanted to.

And I said, and Ann, he said, I'm very skeptical now because just the opposite is true.

And he said, you know, I'm starting to think I want to go to a white doctor.

And I said, and why is that?

And he said, well, hey, get into medical school.

If you're a white male, you've got to be pretty good.

And it was very ironic, but that's he'd come full circle.

And in any case,

final questions.

Have you,

when you wrote this book, did you have anything that surprised you when you started out?

Did you find statistics or data or did you change your mind or did you get more depressed or angrier?

What was the the attitude or your mindset as you went through the research and writing?

I think there were some areas like the medical field and the military that I wasn't aware, the church,

quite how bad things had gotten because they weren't areas that were my expertise.

And so it was a little sobering to see that it was even worse than I had been saying it was.

But, you know, again, I think these things are addressable for some of the reasons that you just touched on.

And people are realizing that we are not

going in a good direction.

And so

there'll be a certain amount of creative destruction that's going to take place among our institutions.

And hopefully, we'll come out in a better place on the other side of that.

I hope so.

Jeremy Carl, everybody who's been with us today, the book is The Unprotected Class: How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart.

It's written.

It's very easy to read.

He's got a wonderful pro style, but it's very, very carefully documented, footnoted,

cited.

And I think you're really going to like it.

It's going to be a very important book.

And Jeremy's been very brave to write it.

And Jeremy, thanks so much for coming on the Victor Davis-Hansen podcast.

I hope you'll come back.

Maybe we can have you back in six months so we can look at how the book has done.

I would love to.

And again, Victor, I appreciate your endorsement of the book and your support and intellectual leadership over many years.

You were certainly one of the touchstones as I began thinking about this book, not just with Mexicornia, but with some of your other writings.

I read the book when you sent it in manuscript.

I was just struck that, A, how good it was, and B,

how brave a person would be to write it, because just the stuff that I've encountered will not be as much as you encounter.

But I did encounter a lot from Mexifornia, but I have a suspicion that this will be even worse because so many people are in these protected industries and

they don't want them to be challenged.

Jeremy, thanks so much, and we'll see you.

We will.

I am going to have you back, so beware.

Wonderful.

I would love to do that, Victor.

Thank you.