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Hello, ladies.

Hello, gentlemen.

This is the Victor Davis Hanson Show.

I'm Jack Fowler, the host, Victor Davis-Hanson, the star, and the namesake is the Martin Ely Anderson Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution and the Wayne and Marsha-Busky Distinguished Fellow in History at Hillsdale College.

Victor's official home on the World Wide Web is VictorHanson.com.

You should be subscribing to that, and I'll tell you more about that later.

Also, this podcast, its formal home is John Solomon's justthenews.com.

You should check that out every once in a while.

Hey, we've got any number of things to talk about, cultural stuff,

particularly, if I could speak correctly, language.

There's always new language insanity being dropped on our head by the left every week.

There's some demographic topics worth discussing.

Scott Gottlieb,

remember the old FDA commissioner who's on the board of Pfizer, who those Twitter files when they were exposed

show something worth discussing.

Dr.

Gottlieb about.

You know, there's an unfinished piece of business from the last podcast Victor and I

recorded, and we had talked about

Adam Schiff and his departure from the intelligence committee and his lying and what those same Twitter files showed about him.

And you know, who has been proven right consistently

from the beginning of these fiasco's was the former Congressman Devin Nunes, who, by the way, was attacked by many on the right.

Very few, if any, Victor, who I think have come around to say, you know what, we were wrong on that.

And let's start off the show by getting your thoughts, Victor, quick thoughts on

Devin Nunes proven right.

We'll get to that right after these important messages.

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We're back with the Victor Davis Hanson show.

So, Victor, I know Devin Nunes,

it's regardless, regardless that he's a pal, or you know, I know he lives near you, you've known him for quite a while.

But man, oh man, he really did stand up for what's right, was vilified for it, vilified by people on our side of the aisle.

And has I don't, I don't recall that any of them have publicly admitted, you know what?

I really mistreated this guy in public, and he was right, and I was wrong.

I hear that from many people.

Everybody should just remember when Devin came into national prominence.

A couple of things to remember, though, he had been in the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and had warned about that the level of Russian hacking after the collapse of Reset had increased.

I think people forget that Obama was pretty much after he did the tell Vladimir, give me some space, and then Vladimir took advantage of him and went in.

You remember that into Ukraine and Crimea in 2014.

They shot down the airliner.

I think they had, remember they took the Russian jets and they buzzed an American destroyer.

They They were taking Obama to the cleaners and then they were hacking.

And he was a voice in the wilderness and warned everybody that Russia was getting very aggressive and starting to

hack during the elections.

And nobody listened to him.

So he had these sterling credentials of being anti-Putin.

So then he comes along and he discovers in the

course of his chairmanship that these people are

peddling this steel dossier, and he didn't understand what the FBI was doing.

And then, as he started to uncover brick by brick this edifice of deceit,

he said things that were extraordinary: that not only was the dossier

fallacious, but the FBI, through James Baker and others, were promulgating it and worse still, they were paying for it as they were hiring

Christopher Steele was an informant or a contractor, and he was being paid by Hillary Clinton as well.

In other words, she was, and that just set off a storm.

And this was the time when they were saying that when he did, Donald Trump dropped, he just said, well, maybe Vladimir Putin can find Hillary's emails, meaning that she was so insecure, I mean, non-secure about the usage of it, that he would, that was a joke, but they thought that that was a time.

And to go back to revisit that era of madness, this is a period, Jack, when James Clapper, the former director of national intelligence, was saying that Donald Trump was, what, a Russian asset?

And people like Max Boot were writing articles that he should be

arrested.

I think David French wrote something in National View that Devin Nunes should resign from the House Intelligence Committee.

He did indeed.

Yeah, I was walking down, I would drive down the 99, and here's a picture of Devin Nunes next to Putin, Putin's puppet.

Adam Schiff was, and he had the accurate, prescient,

I think,

he had a wonderful staff, Devin did.

And they had the majority report about the dossier and Russian fake collusion, and it was accurate, and it's held up perfectly.

And it was damned by New York to all these people.

And then the minority report by Schiff was just a pack of lies.

Everybody knows that.

Nobody claims it.

They all agree with that.

Even the left now agrees with it.

They agree that Christopher Steele mostly made it up.

They agree that Christopher Steele

used this Dolan guy who was Clinton Flack and

the guy at the Chashinko, was that his name?

The guy at the Brookings Institute.

And they agree that Hillary paid them.

They agree that Klein Smith altered a document.

They

concede that the laptop was authentic.

Everything he said has been authenticated.

And what did he get out of it?

I mean,

they filed an ethics complaint, the left did, to get him out.

And then they were supposed to examine both, I think, Schiff and he, or a Democratic counterpart and he.

And of course, the Republicans played fair and said, no, there was no complaint.

And the Democrats sort of broke their deal and

said they had to look at this and would not exonerate him immediately.

And he was off the chairmanship for eight or nine crucial months.

That was all by intent.

I must say that although he was very loyal and supportive of Paul Ryan, I wasn't.

I thought that was terrible that Paul Ryan allowed that to happen.

As Speaker of the House, he could have stopped that.

Right.

But

the point is that

everything he said was accurate.

He got no money.

He's not a lobbyist.

He works for Truth Social now

for for the Trump company, but

I just didn't understand the hatred.

I had him up to

address in 2014 the military history working group, and they were very impressed with him.

People

who would later be never Trump or anti-Trump, there was people in the group.

It's bipartisan that we're Democrat.

Everybody thought he gave a very chilling analysis of the threat of Putin.

And then all of a sudden, you know, he was toxic.

These same people were damning him.

And it was kind of like it was a larger version of what happened to Scott Atlas.

Anytime I see that, it just makes me enraged.

These cowardly people who come out of the woodwork to trash somebody they think is helpless or is not going to be able to retaliate, and they pile on and they lie.

And then when they lose and the person they attacked is innocent or exonerated, then they either shut up or they fade into the woodwork, but they'll come back again.

They're the worst kind of people.

And that's who went after both Scott and Deb.

And they've never apologized.

They did a lot of damage to them.

And although I'm very happy that he's doing what he wants with social media, my God, they could use him right now as head of the ways and means connection.

Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh.

Nobody understands the mind of the left, how it operates and manifests itself in Washington like he does.

And he's absolutely fearless, fearless.

So well,

that was sad.

You know, his, as we talked about just now, you talked about in

previous podcasts,

his great tormentor,

Adam Schiff, has been exposed in these Twitter files of trying to suppress and attack certain members of the media.

And Schiff wasn't the only one engaging in that, Victor.

And Scott Gottlieb has been, has been uncovered.

It's been uncovered of him doing that.

So, Scott Gottlieb, to remind everyone, he's Republican.

He was Trump's

Boon Drug Administration Secretary.

He was very much a prominent person during the whole

COVID

fiasco or development of

the

vaccine.

He's He's a board member of Pfizer.

And

Alex wasn't

at AI to AEI.

He not only was at AEI, I think he's still at AEI.

And AEI is the American Enterprise Institute.

Yeah, so

these documents that Elon Musk has allowed to be released show that he,

I'm having my notes here, that

Gottlieb tried to get Twitter to suppress another doctor, Dr.

Brett Girard.

I don't know that I'm pronouncing it correctly, G-I-R-O-I-R, who I believe was also a Trump administration official, who was discussing the superiority of natural immunity to

a vaccine.

And Gottlieb, I mean, talk about covering your ass and your wallet at the same time, demanded that Twitter suppress this guy because he was saying something corrosive.

It's just another part and parcel of everything that went on during that lockdown and Fauci and the others suppressing any kind of, I don't even call it dissent.

It's fact.

It's truth.

It's another opinion, but it had to be suppressed.

And Gottlieb was part of it.

Yeah, I mean, we're never, ever going to clean this government up unless we take some bold steps.

And one of them is to, if you work for the FDA like Gottlieb, or you are the CDC or the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases, then you should be barred

for five years of

participating in any pharmaceutical board.

Just like

if you work for the Pentagon, i.e.

you're a four-star, three-star general, and you retire out, or you're Secretary of Defense, and you go in to a defense board contractor, which is paying you a huge amount of money to leverage your knowledge of Pentagon machinations, how it works.

You can't do that.

And then we need to also,

in addition to that,

they have too much control over the research field.

In other words, Anthony Fauci had his hands on $50 billion of research.

And Sammy and I discussed that.

So if you were in a lab, you could not do research in the United States.

You could not get tenure

as a medical professional unless you had a CDC, NIH, some type of federal health grant.

That was both a stamp that you were legitimate and

a stamp that you had funding.

And yet that was all politicized.

Nobody was going to criticize Fauci because they did.

They knew that one of his underlings would pull a grant.

And the same thing is true about all of this research in the pharmaceutical and the regulations.

So they've got to break it up and it has to have oversight so that we don't have these Gottlieb or Francis Collins or Anthony Fauci should not have that much power.

They have way too much power.

There should be a board of oversight in those bureaucracies and their positions should be divided up among five or six people.

And then they should not be allowed to have any board membership until at least 10 years after they're out.

And then you would attract people who were in it for different reasons than what they're in it for.

They did a lot of damage.

They really did.

And

they said things that were contrary.

You know, it's kind of like the Never Trumpers in a way, that the Never Trumpers decided in the year of our Lord 2015 and 2016 that given the hatred and venom and frenzy of that

animus they had toward Donald Trump, they renounced their whole life's work, all all their life's work.

Abortion, ah, well, now I look back at my life and I was a little bit too

much pro-life.

Affirmative action, I guess I was kind of racist myself.

Oh, taxes, oh, they're not that bad.

They just renounced everything they're doing.

They raised money.

Yeah, and they did.

And the same thing.

It's the same thing about these people.

They just renounced everything that they supposedly stood for.

And I don't, you know what I mean?

They told us that herd immunity their whole lives.

They told us that herd immunity was superior to vaccinations.

They told us for years that you had to be very careful and have very careful controls over vaccination testing.

And it was a very long, dried-out, long, drawn-out

process.

They told us that, unfortunately, that lockdowns had never never had a history of work, and they wished they did, but they didn't.

They told us that masking was only valuable if it was an N95 mask and you were right next to somebody who was, you know, I could see that in close quarters, but otherwise, you know, it was of no value, especially with little kids that weren't prone to get seriously ill from COVID.

So then they renounced all that.

They just renounced it all.

And all of a sudden, everybody had to be masked and everybody had to be locked down.

And the boosters and the vaccinations and and the extra boosters, they were all perfectly safe.

And they were ironclad protection.

Don't worry about anybody else.

You're protected, and you can't infect, and you cannot be.

Everything they said was a lie.

So

they destroyed their reputation.

I don't know what

they wanted to monetize their careers, or they were into power hungry, or they were narcissistic, megalomania.

I don't know what it was, but boy, one thing we learned over the last dreadful five years, if you look at it in retrospect, think of the names.

If I just throw out some names: John Brennan, James Clapper,

Robert Mueller, James Comey, Andrew McCabe, Christopher Wray, Anthony Fauci, Frank Francis Call,

and on and on.

What do they all have in common?

They either have lied or they profited wrongly from their position, or they

Peter Stroke, Lisa Page,

they broke the law or they were unethical, and they were all smug.

And they had these government jobs that gave them judge, jury, and executioner power over the rest of us.

I don't know how we ever get our freedom back.

I kind of wrote it.

That's why that was the reason I wrote The Dying Citizen because I had that chapter on the unelected, which is kind of the center of the book.

I don't know how you get it back from them.

I've thought and thought.

What do you do?

Do you tell people, you know,

FBI goes to

Kansas City, Department of Ag goes to Houston, Department of Energy goes to Baton Rouge.

I don't know what you do.

You've got to break up that Washington nexus somehow.

And you have to have oversight and you have to have strict ethic rules, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

But I don't see.

Yeah, unless you have a Congress that's going to

empower Congress to make the laws and not delegate to

empower bureaucrats.

The conservatives have been very bewildered.

They have.

I talked to them, and I have that way myself.

It's all of a sudden you woke up and you thought, wow,

I so strongly supported this central intelligence agency.

Wow.

I always defended the FBI from attacks from the left.

Wow.

I always defended the Pentagon and our generals from unfair.

I mean, I wrote columns all during...

the Trump period when we nominated, you know, Kelly and McMaster and Flynn and Mattis and everybody said we have too many generals.

Remember the left said that?

Two generals?

And I think I wrote three op-eds.

And then when I look at what McCaffrey said, or I look what McRaven said, or

Hayden said, you know, I don't mean just said, I mean said that the president was Mussolini or he was a, you know, or

his policies were like Auschwitz, or he was Nazi-like.

I couldn't believe it.

And so I think all of us looked at this, and when you saw what James Comey was doing and leaking private confidential memos with the President of the United States, feigning amnesia 245 times, Robert Mueller, the pawn of this Weissman character, just completely incompetent, lying under oath that he didn't know what the steel dossier was or GPS, Andrew McCabe proudly lying four times to a federal investigator, Bill Barr letting him off.

It's like these disclosures of classified information.

We put people in jail.

Remember that guy who took a picture, I think, to his girlfriend or wife of a submarine?

And

they really threw the book at him.

And there was another person just the other day they put him three months.

Right.

Well, it matters who you are, right?

I mean,

Sandy, whatever, God rest his soul.

I know he did.

I think they control our elected officials.

I don't think the elected officials can control them.

When they get in there and they start to question this unelected Christopher Wray, and he just says, basically, screw you.

I'm going to get in my FBI jet, and I'm going to fly to my vacation home.

I can't put up with this.

I mean, he didn't say it like that, but that's what he did.

And then Fauci just says, I can't remember.

I don't know.

I can't remember.

So does Coney.

They just insult people's intelligence.

Rand Paul is an MD.

He had some good questions for Fauci.

He has as much knowledge of immunology as Fauci does.

Fauci's not an immunologist, and

he doesn't seem to know much about immunology compared to other people in his field, but he just, it was

science.

Yeah, I think that that's the greatest threat right now in the United States.

That this is sort of like the blues and the greens at Byzantium that bureaucracy took over from Justinian until you know what happened.

And it's like the El Escaral out the Spanish Empire outside of Madrid, that whole, you know,

around Philip II and Charles V, that whole bureaucracy or Versailles, those 5,000 clerks that surrounded the Bourbon kings.

And it's, it's, or even, you know, the Kremlin, it's just a huge unelected group of functionaries.

And they hate people who are independent and self-supporting, autonomous.

And they need to be reined in because they're scary.

They really are.

By the way, making things even scarier, and I did not tell you I was going to bring this up.

This is just an anecdote.

And we've talked before, you mentioned the military, these generals earlier, and we have talked before about the terrible rates of military bringing in new recruits.

But I was talking to a guy the other day who was in the Air Force Reserve and his left, and his wife was in the reserve and his left.

He says, you know, the recruitment problem is just as bad as the retention problem happening.

People just like, we're out of here.

I'm sick of this being vilified, etc.

So

we're being screwed by the bureaucrats.

And then the goal of the nation is national security at its very core, right?

And

we have a military that is in a really, really troubling way.

So, anyway,

nobody, nobody, I mean, I hope that this new house has an investigation of what happened in Afghanistan.

A billion-dollar embassy given away a $300 million refit on the biggest Air Force base in Central Asia at Baglam thrown away.

I don't know what the actual figure is.

I hear $10 billion to $40 billion in weapons and assets thrown away or worse, put on the international arms market.

Complete destruction of deterrence that greenlighted the Putin invasion of Ukraine.

Everything,

20 years of brave sacrifices by American soldiers thrown away just by the sheer humiliation of that retreat, and Joe Biden was just exempt.

And all of those people who just months earlier were doing two things, Jack.

They were assuring us that the Army and the military was capable, at least publicly they were, which is worse because they claimed privately they warned Biden, but that would be even worse that publicly they were telling us something that was the exact opposite of what they knew to be true.

And then second, when you had the head of naval operations and you had Millie and Austin, and they were just virtue signaling and performance hearting

their so-called virtue and rooting out white rage and white privilege and white supremacy.

And that's they were doing all of that while this war was being

lost.

And so, what we want them to do, they didn't do.

And what we don't want them to do, they did.

And I don't know how you go into the military and you break up that whole

huge capital investment.

I don't know how you do it because if you want to say we do not want subsidized transsexual surgeries, or we want the same standards for women in combat units as men, or we do not want promotions on the basis of

criteria other than proven efficacy in the battlefield.

And how do we make you do that?

Do we cut the budget?

Well, you get the impression that they would cut housing for families on the base before they get rid of the diversity zone.

So it's hard to know.

You'd have to go through a line item to make them do it.

And I'm speaking as somebody who always thought we should spend 3% to 5% of GDP at least on defense, especially

on, you know, a multiplicity of weapons rather than these very expensive few weapons.

In other words, rather than building another $15 billion carrier, why not build, I don't know, 100 drone cheap and flood the zone with it, that kind of thing.

And now

I can't do it anymore.

I just don't think that when I

I don't think the Pentagon spends the money wisely.

We're $31 trillion in debt.

This is not 1939 where they're being starved of money.

And yet the more money you give them, the more money they spend it on the stuff that is just counterproductive and causing and is resulting in meeting

not meeting their recruitment quotas for the year at

a magnitude of what, 50%, 60% is all they've got.

They even have applications at the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy are going down, and they never ever say why.

They won't do it.

They say, well, there's too many people that are abused.

There's too many gang members.

There's a mail problem.

They don't want to go out.

Maybe, maybe, maybe.

But you in the military told it would just, it would be just like the British Army said to the Gurkhas, you guys are racist.

Or the Indian Army said to the Sikh community, we think you're apostates.

In other words, you would try to alienate the one demographic that was renowned for combat performance.

And that's what they did with the so-called white male from

rural and South America, the southern states of America, upstate New York, rural Maine, Wyoming, on a cowboy in

Wyoming or a kid that grew up in Knoxville, Tennessee.

They told that group, we don't want you because you're suspected of racism.

And it just drives me nuts what they did to those kids.

Stay home and die.

They're not going to come back.

They're not going to come back.

I hear from them all the time.

They're not going to start start re-enlisting or enlisting the first time unless there's a radical change in the pentagon well victor there's other kinds of uh warfare a war against our our civilization and our culture and a lot of that is done by the left

uh through the uh constant change of language and twisting new definitions keep to keep us what confused to backpedal etc And a bunch of this stuff has just come out in the last few days.

We're going to get your thoughts on the

left and language.

We'll do that right after these important messages.

We're back with the Victor Davis Hansen Show.

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Yeah, I still, I've mentioned this before the time I introduced you wrong in front of Sarah Palin.

That was, oh my gosh, that was embarrassing.

So, Victor, let me read a couple of headlines here and then quote one thing.

Gosh, there's a smorgasbord of Crapola that's come out in the last few weeks.

One of them's north of the border.

This is Canada.

You know, the headline is:

where the hell?

Canada's Girl Scouts will drop the name Brownie because the term offended some members.

You got to be kidding me.

At USC, University of Southern California,

the term field

is now out of use.

You can't say field.

I'm going into the field.

I'm getting my master's.

I'm going to go in the field.

Why?

Because in the field, what?

It means cotton picking or something.

It's racist.

Don't you know that?

The people who say that have, I bet they haven't seen a field in their entire life.

I think the number of, if they think it's racist, African Americans that work in the field is about 1%, as it is

most demographics.

I feel bad.

I wrote a book called Fields Without Dreams.

You racist, you.

I was told by my grandfather since I can remember, Victor, you go out there in the north field.

Victor, you go out in the southwest field and irrigate for me.

And I thought, oh, my gosh, he said, field, what a racist.

And it's this Orwellian idea.

It shows you two things.

Number one, that

these people are stupid.

They look at what happened to Stanford University with its list, and it brought nothing but rebuke and shame on the great university by this crazy list of, you know, citizen and immigrant, American cannot be used.

And then they come out and say, field.

I was trying to, when you said field, I thought, wow,

that's not a Greek word.

The Greek word for field is Kora, C-H-O-R-A in the English transcription.

And in Latin, it's agrum.

That's an Anglo-Saxon word, field, and it's related to earth.

And

so it's nothing intrinsically racist about any of these words, except

you're telling me that they believe that because people that were slaves were asked to go as field hands,

and you cannot use it as field, but I can say I'm going to go field a grounder if I'm on a baseball team, or I'll field some questions, that's okay.

But not if you use it as a noun, a verb is okay.

You see what I'm getting at?

It's just, it gets into this labyrinth labyrinth of hypocrisy, complexity, contradiction, paradox.

And it also shows you that they have nothing to do

because

you would think that the people in the university are doing this as SAT scores increase, as students graduate in four years rather than half graduating in six, as tuition

and cost of room and board doesn't go up above the rate of inflation, and as the syllabi become more and more demanding, no, it's just the opposite.

The worse they do turning out educated people, the more they have time to

do this.

And then, as Orwell warned, they think they can change reality by changing language.

Right.

And that's what, that's, so air crews for airmen or something, then all of a sudden they think, wow.

I feel good about myself.

There's no more airmen.

And it doesn't work that way.

You only get self-confidence by your own achievement, not because somebody changes a word on your behalf, unless it's some kind of inflammatory word.

And I don't think field is.

So what do these people, it gets back to our earlier conversation.

They're socially engineering.

They have some weird, vague idea that if they get to the final end of what they want,

everybody's going to be regimented and they're going to be robotic and automatons and only going to speak in this particular language and live in this particular high-rise and get there in this particular train and and not have a gas burning it's just total control over the person

and uh these people who do this are so disconnected from the word feel

they don't they're not muscular people you don't hear this coming from the guy that i drove i got up at 4 30 in the morning i drove 180 miles this morning and i was in a windstorm rain on Pacheco Pass, and they're not the truck driver, you know, going around 60 miles an hour in a rainstorm, keeping that semi on the road.

And then I drove by out on the west side on Manning with

not that tractor driver going for nine hours back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

That's not what they do.

If they did do that, they wouldn't act like this because they would understand how what a thin margin of air we have for this complex society and how everybody has to be very careful not to tamper with farming and not to tamper with trucking and not to tamper with the police.

Because when you start doing that, you rip off that thin veneer of civilization and that scab and that wound beneath is pretty ugly.

And what that wound is, is

what happened after George Floyd or what you see in the streets of San Francisco or looting the trains in Los Angeles or Smash and Grab or carjacking, or Saturday night in Chicago.

That's what it is.

And

that's anti-civilizational what they're doing.

And

it's so typical that they have

these compounds and this wealth and private jets and government perks if they're in government.

And to insulate them from the logical consequences of their own advocacy.

Well, Victor, we were also,

it's not only the

academic types.

I've almost said eggheads, but that wouldn't have been nice of me.

Well,

eggs are very expensive now.

But it's also

the bureaucrats who you were just talking about.

So the CDC, which did such a wonderful job

with lockdowns, would you think when the CDC was created that

the congressmen who wrote the law thought that they'd be in, that that their obligation would be to retool language because they put out earlier this week a vast list of, we're not supposed to say the poor anymore.

Common people,

you can't talk about the poor.

You have to talk about what the hell is it?

People experiencing poverty, people with self-reported

lowest empty bracket.

What I want to know is ultimately who is doing, where is, I think our listeners want to know

what is the trigger for the madness?

Who is it?

Is it

the diversity race industry and its helpers?

And they

think this up and then they pressure these weak people in government or academia who

are afraid that if they don't,

if they end up like Jordan Peterson or something,

or is that it?

They're going to be ostracized.

Jordan Peterson, the best thing that ever happened to him,

because he showed

what happens when you resist it.

But my point is,

who are the people?

Is it the Joy Reeds of the world?

Who are you?

Who's so scary?

They go after you?

Is that it?

Who is they?

Why can't you say no, not this pig?

I'm not going to do it.

What if everybody just got up one day and said, not going to do it?

What if you turned on

the Golden Globe?

Globe Awards and you heard that crazy comedian said, I'm only here because of, you know, white girl, and you turned it off.

What if you, I don't know, you just turned off Joy Reed?

Or what if you just said, I am not going to send my kid to Yale?

There's no way in the world I'm going to do that.

I want to find, I want, there has to be a university, St.

Thomas Aquinas or Hillsdale's everywhere.

I'm not going to do it anymore.

I'm going to do it at times and just say no to them.

And what power do they have?

What power do they have?

Ultimately,

in the end of COVID, they need people

all these people that are telling everybody what to do they need a guy to come and drop off the amazon they need a guy to come in and fix their drain they need a guy to rewire their home they need a guy to roof their house if they don't have those people they despise they're nothing yeah like drones in a beehive and

they don't i don't know what what purpose they serve if they can't get the real world so people have leverage over them and they can just start demanding of them that they stop it or they can.

You know,

Victor, in my little world of, and I work American Philanthropic, and there really is a, you mentioned, you know, I'm not going to send my kid to L anymore.

Well, K through 12, there is a huge growing movement out there of alternatives, not only, you know, homeschooling, but

the

Great Hearts or the Hillsdale program or the Chesterton schools.

So it's very heartening that people are taking, finding and creating alternatives in the United States.

No, I agree.

It's been, I serve on the Bradley Foundation Board nonprofit, and that's what we do.

We fund traditional education, both parochial and charter schools.

And they're popping up.

You wouldn't believe it.

They're just, as you know, in the Hillsdale charter schools, they're just.

multiplying.

And we've got Ralston College in Savannah.

We've got the University of Salesforce.

Well, I wanted to ask you, though, did you see this news about this college, the new college of Florida?

Yes, I saw that.

And

there's about three things that are happening simultaneously.

One is there's new universities

sprouting, like at the University of Austin or Ralston.

The second thing is that there

is a growth in traditional St.

Thomas Aquinas, Hillsdale-type places, places.

And there is online education.

And there is an attempt not to cede these schools to the left, that the left didn't build these schools.

The people built them.

And don't just give up on them.

Go fight to get on their boards.

Go fight to get

control back from these schools.

And I think people can do it.

I think if everything,

I would like to say, I'm 69.

If I should live another 10 years and I look back, I'd like to say this was something like

the McCarthy frenzy, but there, I mean, there really were communists in the State Department, but there's not, I mean, there's not all of these enemies of woke.

It's more like the Say Them Witch Trials.

It's this friend or the Jacobin frenzy from 1793 to 4.

It's more like that.

It's just a period of mass hysteria and insanity.

I think the catalyst was the lockdown, the George Floyd made people kind of, and the fear of COVID, that all conspired to supercharge these existing pathologies.

But

I have to hope it's a self-limiting disease and that we can get through it and then we'll rebuke it and laugh about it, like hula hoops, fat, or something like

how many goldfishes can you swallow?

How many people can get in a Volkswagen?

That kind of insanity.

And that's what it is.

It's trite.

It's stupid.

It's silly.

All of these words.

The only difference is that people have

these letters after their name, Ph.D., MA, and they don't mean anything anymore.

My God, when I went to graduate school,

there were all these Europeans, and the chairman said to me, Mr.

Hansen, you're 20, just turned 21.

I said, yes.

He said, there's four of you in this class, and half of you are going to flunk out.

And I don't think the other two

are going to get a job.

But if you do,

stay in.

And

whether you got a job, I can guarantee you you will have a classical education.

And I said, what does that entail?

And he went on, you know,

you're going to take a Greek composition.

You're going to take a Latin composition.

You're going to take three-hour exam in Greek.

You're going to take three-hour Latin, Latin, Greek literature, Latin literature, Roman history, Greek history, 12 seminars, manuscript edition, comparative Greek and Latin philology, a thesis,

composition requirement, greedy knowledge of French and German.

And if I had said to him, I don't think that's fair.

I don't like that.

I think that's racist.

I think that's sexist.

I think that's a construct of your privilege.

They would have laughed.

They just said, get out.

We don't want you.

Or if we said, oh, I can't do it, or I'm stressed.

They would say, get out.

Their whole purpose, and I'm not saying these were great individuals.

I wrote a book critiquing the system, but their whole point was, if you leave Stanford University and you leave with a PhD in classic, it's going to mean something.

We're not going to let you dishonor what we do.

And we're going to have a brand that everybody may think that we're limited or narrow, but like Harvard in those days, we're going to train philologists.

And our people, when they go out to get a job, will be able to read and write Latin, and they will be acquainted with the corpus of classical literature very intimately.

And they will know something about epigraphy, numismatics,

inscriptions,

everything.

And that's what they did.

And it was kind of a strange thing because you didn't really get a job.

But until you, you know, I farmed for five years full-time, another

10 part-time.

But my point was they had a code, and

they set the rules, and they didn't force you to do it.

But this idea now that graduate students tell the professors what they can do and what they can't, or the student tells the professor, or they shout down a professor, or they don't come if you don't want to do it.

Go start your own school.

I did that in the 60s.

They didn't like the education, so they called the free university.

Remember those?

No grades, no entrance requirement.

They did it all over Europe.

They did it here, too.

Why don't you just go do that?

Santa Cruz tried it.

I was there at the, I think I was there at the fourth year of the campus, fifth year, no grades,

co-ed dorms, no drug enforcement.

And

the only difference was the people that were, they brought to do it were classically trained, so the faculty was excellent.

But it only lasted about five years, and then it was filthy, dirty in the dorm, and everybody was stoned.

And, you know, I can remember a woman knocking on my door in 1971.

I swear to God, Jack, she knocked in, said, I'm the health officer at Cal Health Center.

I said, yes, what can I do for her?

We have a new sexually transmitted disease on campus.

Nobody's ever seen it before.

Have you had a sexually transmitted disease?

I said, no.

And she said, do you know anybody that does?

And I said, I don't ask that.

But she said, we don't know what it is, but it's called herpes.

And it's something like the sore on your lip, only it's a genital, and it's very infectious.

And it's caused by a virus that can be very dangerous.

And we want to find every single person on campus.

Can you believe that?

And it broke out at UCC, one of the early spots, not the first, but that was one of the early hotspots.

And no one knew what it was.

And in our dorm, there were about eight or nine people that had it.

And they had warned you, you're going to have it for life.

And it was sort of like a pre-AIDS paranoia or a pre-COVID.

But the point was that was the logical manifestation if you look what was going on at that campus.

And the same thing with drug usage and suicide rates and

the past-fail system.

If people were not getting grades, they weren't turning in papers on time or they weren't coming to class.

And so it didn't work.

So finally, they had to recalibrate the campus and start giving grades and do a little bit of medial, you know, and clean it up.

But it was, it doesn't work.

It was anarchy.

And I got a very good education because I was in classics and there was nobody in classics.

And then we had all these Yale and Harvard-trained philologists, and they taught me Greek and Latin as some kind of little nerd that took all of their classes.

And I was able to escape that.

But my gosh,

it was an on-tap gift because I go into this class and PhD, Harvard book phd yale book phd uc berkeley and there's like five people in greek and latin and you get all this individual attention and they were all classically trained and it was like an island a tall of sanity and chaos

oh but there we go

victor was there when they they invented herpes i like that hey yeah well i don't i'm not claiming that it wasn't there earlier or elsewhere i'm just saying that in 1971 in the fall,

there was an epidemic of it, and they didn't know what it was entirely, but they came in to tell you that it was very scary.

That's what they said.

And they were trying to discourage sexual promiscuity.

And I remember saying to the health officer, I came from a very conservative area and what I saw in my co-ed dorm the first week, I have never, ever imagined existed.

And I don't think your policies are going to work here.

Yeah.

Not even in one of Nero's parties, maybe.

Or who had the bad parties?

Caligula.

Caligula had the bad parties.

I always think that when I

could say something that's going to be inflammatory, but when I see people

69,

and when I see people that are kind of

hippie left, you know, or very successful, but they're 70, 71, 72.

Right.

And I think back to that period,

I can remember being at UC Santa Cruz in 1971 and going to the pool to swim for my nightly swim with my baggie, you know, and no one had a swimming suit on, or people were fornicating in the shower or stuff like that.

And I think, where are those people now?

I said at the time, my dad said that time, he dropped me off and he said, I think I've mentioned that to you.

He said, oh my God,

what the hell is going to happen when we turn the country over to these people?

And I said, well, you know, he said, no, I'm serious.

Where are they going to be?

And I thought that, I thought of them the other day because I was in Palo Alto yesterday and I saw some very at a restaurant very, I was listening, saw some very left-wing people.

Agent hippies?

Yeah.

Very, you know, very Menlo Park type.

And I thought, what were you doing there during that period?

And how did

that had to be a life-changing experience for a lot of people that they never got over, whether that was the drugs or the sex or the rebellion.

I don't know, but it did a lot of damage in the United States.

Yeah, still doing it.

Well, Victor, we have time for one more topic.

And

Carol Markowitz, who is a

great writer, and she has a piece for Real Clear Politics.

Actually, it's under Real Clear Books and Culture.

And it's called, it's titled The New Jew, The Beginning of a Jewish Political Realignment.

And I sent it to you, and you're going to share some thoughts about this when we return after

this important message.

We're back with the Victor Davis-Hansen Show.

So, Victor, somebody sent this piece to me, and I read it.

So, Carol moved from

New York to Florida.

She has married children.

Pandemic was, this is crazy.

I got to get my kids out of here, out of this New York insanity.

And southern Florida has a significant Jewish population.

You

remember, you know, during 2000, certain Palm Beach or certain areas, like, how could all these Jews be voting for Pat Buchanan?

Something's crazy here.

You know, there was all this.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

And she was

look, people think in general terms about others, and even Carol, who's Jewish, thinks about what she was expecting of the Jewish community

in southern Florida.

And she was remarkably surprised and believes, wow, wow.

American Jews are kind of changing politically.

Once a very reliable, liberal Democrat demographic seems to be, and it seems to also be borne out by some data from recent elections, is moving right, or maybe everything else is moving too left under their feet.

Anyway, Victor, do you have any thoughts about that?

Yeah, I think

what were the reasons why I think

Norman Porhoritz wrote extensively on why Jews were left-wing.

And a lot of it came out of the pomegranates of Eastern Europe and their oppression that they faced

from the establishment governments, the so-called Gentiles.

And then you add the persecution ongoing, and they had natural empathies for other minorities

as well.

And there had been a, in Jewish tradition, sort of a strong egalitarian ethos.

And that pretty much,

I think,

from, oh, I'm just taking an arbitrary, from 1920 to the turn, the millennium 2000 was pretty much

the Orthodox Jewish 80%

predictable political affinities.

And it was not like the Italian Americans.

Italian Americans, to take example, they came from Sicily and southern Italy for the most part, two waves, 1880, 1890, and probably into the 20s, kind of like the Irish as well, earlier, and then same time.

And they

were persecuted and they were poor and

you know they had problems.

It took three generations to fully assimilate and to be

obtained parity in terms of income, etc.

And now, as I said earlier, if your name is

Cuomo

or de Blasio, I can't say that, yeah, whatever his name is, de Blasio or Cuomo or

Giuliani, you can't determine by the name whether you're

same thing, what your political affiliations are, same thing if your name is O'Reilly or

Muldoon, you don't know what your affiliation is.

I think that's going to happen.

If you're Bernstein or

Einstein or something, you're not going to know what your affiliation is.

I think Jewish,

the

lockstep allegiance to the democratic left is starting to erode.

It's still,

yeah, I think that she said, I think I had read, I don't know if it was this essay before, she thought 40% of the Jewish community in Florida voted for DeSantis or was Republican.

I think 45%,

41% had voted for Trump.

Yeah, so if the conditions have changed by which they were,

that community is liberal,

then why are they becoming, what were the conditions that changed that made them conservative?

One thing is there is no more Jewish immigration to speak of, and they're suffering assimilation at an enormous rate

out marriages, and the communities that remain self-identifiable as Jewish tend to be more Hasidic or ultra-Orthodox tend to be more conservative anyway.

And liberal Jews tend to not be as orthodox and not as they don't self-identify.

But there's other things I think very quickly that made them reconsider their democratic fee days.

One, of course, is if you look at statistics in New York City, but also country, they are the minority that is the most disproportionately targeted for hate crimes.

Right.

And if you look at the two constituencies that are most overrepresented

inflicting those hate crimes that are reported, it's the African American and Islamic communities.

And so I think, and those are the basis of left-wing orthodoxy today in contemporary American politics.

So if you're a Jewish student and you think you're a good Biden-Obama person and you go to Stanford University, what do you think when there's these posters that say, be gone, Ben Shapiro, with a raid can to deliberately evoke Holocaust imagery of gas in Jews, and nobody in the administration cares much about it?

Or you hear at Berkeley at the free speech, this ultra anti-Semitic stuff?

Or

the student council goes after jews or nobody wants to have a jewish roommate things like that if they're a person of color in some cases so i think they're starting to see that the old anti-semitic right is mostly inert i mean oh there's this guy fuentez and all those crazy people but they're inert the real dynamic is the ilian omar aoc

young person

oppressed, victimized group that doesn't like American Jews.

And one of the reasons, of course, is Israel.

And so a lot of people are saying, you know what, if

Iran gets the bomb, they're going to try to wipe out Israel.

And these people would not bat an eye in America, these anti-Semites on the left.

And they're right about that.

So I think that they look at the left, what the Democratic Party has become, and they say, wow, it's just kind of institutionalized that you can make fun of Israel all and lie about Israel and lie about Israel, and you can be openly anti-Semitic, and there's no consequences.

And I think a lot of Jewish professors understand that if they're candid.

And so I think that's going to get worse and worse and worse.

And I think most, the majority of people who identify as Jewish are going to vote Republican.

They're about 3%

of the population, so they're not

a big constituency demographically, but

they're overrepresented in terms of writers,

political activists, donors.

So they're very influential in that sense.

So it could make a big difference.

I think it will.

I think it will make a difference.

Because

I think once it catches on, that people finally can come.

If you're a Democrat for six generations and then you finally wake up one morning and you say to yourself, these people hate who I am and they hate what I represent and are not shy about expressing it, then you're going to switch in a minute.

You're going to flip.

And once you flip,

then it becomes kind of like David Horowitz.

You go completely, you just, you know what I mean?

You're really adamantly flipped

with the zeal of an apostate and a convert.

And I think that's what's going to happen to a lot.

It's happening as we speak.

It's happening to a lot of different people.

Mexican-American people I know, when they flip, they become very, very conservative, very conservative.

Yeah.

And they're about 40, 45% now.

Shut the border down, they'd be 70% in 10 years.

Yeah, I think as you kind of,

well, your point in part was

when you're hated, I mean, the flipping comes,

I'm flipping in part because you hate me, like that's that really locks you in.

You know, the next constituency is going to flip, I can feel it already, is your

independent, center-left, Democratic, suburban household that was strongly hated Trump, felt he was vulgar, probably defected or voted.

We know that from the independent vote in 2020 and to a lesser extent in 2022, but they're going to start to see something that they're hated because

When you are great universities and you're letting in, I think Yale let in 50, 48% white,

or Stanford 23%,

and you deliberately target that demographic, and you say, we don't want you.

And then you hear every single day white supremacy, white privilege, white privilege, white supremacy, and your toxic legacy.

And you've done this and you've done this.

And then this constituency said, well, wait a minute.

I didn't grow up very wealthy.

I worked like a dog in graduate school.

I worked two jobs.

And I'm not ashamed of how successful I think they're going to I think they're already starting to flip because you can't keep consulting collectively a whole demographic.

And that's why African Americans were

understandably voted Democratic because the Democratic

Party parted ways

probably in the 60s with the Southern Democrats.

And so JFK and everybody, he was timid, but finally LBJ and those people broke with him.

And they felt that they were more

conducive to civil rights than the Republicans, even though a lot of Republicans were much more supportive of civil rights than the Southern Democrats.

But nevertheless, and the same thing with the Latino community, but I don't think that's true anymore.

And I think they're going to flip.

So I am confident about this because

everybody wants to have a gas stove, Jack.

Everybody wants to say the word field.

Everybody knows that a guy can lift more weights than a woman.

Everybody knows that if you have testicles and a penis and you have a male body and you're competing in female storage, you're robbing women of years of training and work and stealing their honors.

Everybody knows that.

Yeah.

It's funny, not funny, but you mentioned about

the suburban liberals.

And where I live in Milford, Connecticut is abutting what we call the Gold Coast, Fairfield County, very, very wealthy.

Well, actually, one of the wealthier zip codes, collection of zip codes in America.

And my next-door neighbor taught at two high schools.

One was a bad high school in the town, quote-unquote, bad, in

Stanford, Connecticut.

And then she taught at a high school later in Westport, which is a very tony community.

And then in her experience in Stanford was at the at the poor school, you know, that's what it was.

No interest in parents, but from parents, no interest, zero.

After she transferred to

town Westport and gave a kid a B, the parents would come in with a lawyer.

And my kid's not going to get this high school.

Well, you're harming my kid.

He's not going to get into Yale or Harvard.

So, I mean, it's an anecdote, but that,

the thought that that's part of the continuum, that we're going to, we're, we live where we live, we go to these schools, and

the payoff is going to be that they're going to go to one of those.

No, it's not there anymore.

No, and it's not just, I'm just picking out Stanford and Yale.

It's not.

It's Oberlin.

It's Brown.

It's Wellesley.

It's all of them.

And they had a stamp, a cattle brand, and they told America, you put your kid at sat camp at three and you groom them and you make them study and you make them go on the cross team and you have a year abroad and you know their junior year in AFS or something or they volunteer to build a well in Kenya or they got to take every AP and you get a two and you want them to be a cattleground with a big H for Harvard on their rear end or maybe

it didn't matter, just so Duke or and then they can get into laws and then they are set and they're part of the nomenclatura and they're successful and they they work hard.

They do work hard.

But you take that and then they say to these kids,

whether covertly or overtly or implicitly or explicitly, they say to them, when you go there, you're going to meet people and these are the people you want to marry because they are of your class and you're going to make networks.

You're going to be a roommate of the next Mark Zuckerberg.

Or you're going to bump into Bill Gates in a class and a future Bill Gates or and they're going to hire you and you get to know them and that kind of networking.

Okay.

You tell that hyper-achieving rubric,

you're going to go through all that, you're going to pay all that money for, and you're not going to get in because you represent the old boy network and that's privilege, privilege, privilege.

And so even if you did get in, you're going to be in a tiny minority and there's not going to be the networking draw for you and the classes are not going to be competitive and the standards are not going to be what is you're used to and they're going to react to that.

I don't know how they're going to react.

I think because I talked to a lot of them, some of them are sending to, as I said, different schools,

big schools, University of Michigan, University of Texas.

They like places like that that are kind of anonymous and that

they can't fixate on a student.

But I think there's going to be a reaction.

And I think these universities are in their death.

They have no idea they just took a 45 to their temple and pulled the trigger.

They really don't.

They're so insular and self-righteous and sanctimonious that they just went down with this white supremacy, white man.

And the people who were doing it were mostly protected, hypocritical white elites.

And they never said to themselves, I'm the white provost, I'm the white president, I'm the white dean, and I'm surrounding myself by people of color and I'm protected, and I'm going to just worry about, and I'm going to take it out on the white working class.

And that was okay.

That was your proportional representation, admission hiring.

But now it's repertory, and to get repertory above the demographics of the marginalized communities, you have to go after the superachiever and the blessed and the anointed.

And when you start doing that,

you're going to get a pushback.

And I can feel it at Stanford University.

I can always feel it.

And there's a lot of people who graduated from that university, and they're all mostly left-wing.

And they look at,

they interview graduates that are coming out of there and they look at the curriculum and they talk to faculty and they know their nieces and grandkids and children can't get in.

And they're starting to say to themselves, why am I supporting this place?

And these are not conservatives.

And so I don't know, if I said, if I was a Harvard or Yale or Stanford Dean and I had these multi-billion dollar endowments and I said to myself, how would I destroy this university?

Well, I would start changing language to get attention.

I would post that I'm letting the white community in at about one-third of their

population in the general percentage of the general population.

I would be very, I'd allow rampant anti-Semitism.

I would forbid free speech.

I would not give due process if you're accused of harassment by an anonymous accuser.

I would get this woke environment all over campus and

I would really offend conservative politicians.

These would be nexuses where I would harvest votes.

I'd get out the votes so every student except my law schools would be political.

They would be trying to change voting.

And I would offend the Republican Party.

And so what they're doing is they're setting up the stage for a lot.

If the Republicans take control of the House or the presidency in two years, you wait, there's going to be a huge move to tax the endowments

and to

cut federal funding for programs at the university that don't allow free speech or they discriminate on the basis of race.

If the Supreme Court comes down and rejects affirmative action,

And these universities, as they will do, as they always do, they did it with Prop 209 Calp, they'll try to evade it and lie about that and use the bureaucracy to make a mockery of the law.

But if the Republicans are in Congress, they will cut funding for anybody that is contrary to the Supreme Court ruling.

And they don't understand the ill will that they have gained from the conservative political establishment.

And they're going to be on loose, they're going to go after these universities.

And they are big, fat targets with these huge endowments that they do not pay the taxpayer money on the interest they accrue as nonprofits.

And they're the last thing from apolitical.

They're so partisan.

Every single idea in the 2020

election to change the nature of how we vote came out of a university campus.

And so everybody knows that.

And then they're going to go back and they're going to say, well, support us, alumni.

The right political party is going after it.

And they're going to say, no, no.

You humiliated me.

You took my money.

You said that I was a white supremacist.

You didn't let my grandkid in.

He earned.

He worked his entire life.

You were racist.

You used race to punish him.

He didn't do anything wrong.

I'm done with you.

Yeah, Vic, I agree.

You and I are both very enmeshed in the world of philanthropy and foundations and the like.

But at some point, too, when you have a Harvard with over $30 billion,

how is me giving a donation to that advancing

the reason you have a tax deduction is that, okay, we're not going to tax you, Jack Fowler, because you just gave money to, that's going to help do something to solve a social matter or problem, et cetera, that the government would have had to have done otherwise.

Well, you know, at a certain point, giving money to bloated universities.

Counterproductive.

All you're doing is just imagine that there's a fire and you've got a hose and you're shooting gasoline into it because that's what you're doing by giving these universities money because they will use it for exactly the opposite of donor intent.

It's just going to make you shouldn't give any money to them unless you know there's a program that honors donor intent.

Right.

And there are some, but the universities don't like those at all.

Well, right, because you don't really give them the money.

You give it to them like, I'll give you a chance

here.

It's fungible.

And then the other final thing is

what's the trigger that starts it off

what is the trigger that starts it off this this explosion of these universities it's when people at goldman sachs or people

at facebook or people at uber they start interviewing these people at the executive level and they have these degrees

and they look at the curriculum they i mean they look at the resume, they see Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and yet when they see the candidate and they ask them questions or they evaluate their verbal skills, they know that they did not take the coursework in computation or mathematics or engineering or humanities or English or history.

They're not very well educated.

And they equate that with the degree.

And once that starts happening, and it's already starting now, that I know that when I talk to a recent graduate from Stanford, it means nothing to me because I know the person was almost illiterate.

And that's going to happen across the board unless

they really go back to an older curriculum and standards and grading.

But to do that now, given that they've destroyed all their standards and criteria for admissions, you would have a riot.

If you told, how can you say to everybody, 70,

67,

excuse me, 70, if you're 23, 77% of the campus will not be white, we can assure you.

And we can assure you we're not, most of them didn't have to take the SAT, okay.

And we can assure you that they're going to do the same level of work that was true five years ago where the median SAT score of entering freshmen was 750, 780, and 4.4 from competitive high school.

You can't.

So you're going to have to adjust.

And when you adjust, that's going to reflect the quality of your graduate.

You're not helping the person that you think you're helping.

You're going to put them in a position where they're not going to be able to compete at a particular level unless you change the rules.

And the rules will be changed because they will be called racist or you know the whole vocabulary of disparagement and demagoguery.

So I don't see how they're going to get out of it.

And maybe they're, you know,

after me, the deluge.

Maybe they think, you know what?

I'm a provost.

I make $400,000.

I'm a college president.

I'm a right guy.

I don't care.

I'll just do this.

And so nobody will march in my office.

They won't fire me.

I won't be a target of the woke mob.

I retire with my 401k of 10 million.

I've had a good life.

Screw the rest of the people.

That's their problem.

Maybe it's that attitude.

I can't think of any other reason why they would self-destruct like that.

Sounds pretty plausible to me.

All right.

Well, Victor, that's about all the time we have, except that we will thank our listeners for listening, no matter what platform, Stitcher, Google, Play.

Hey, thanks.

To those who listen on Apple or Apple Podcasts or iTunes, thank you also.

And of course, you know, you can rate this show zero to five stars.

And Victor has a well over 4.9% rating average from several thousand people who have done such.

Thank you very much.

Many people leave comments.

We read them.

And here's one

from

Zaphnion.

titled Don't Miss Out on VDH.

Guidance like Victor's goes such a long way.

It would do the world a tremendous good for people to subscribe, to listen, and to read.

Please, Victor, keep sharing your thoughts.

You're truly an asset, a benefit, and a blessing.

Thanks again.

Mrs.

Hansen would agree with that, that you're a blessing.

I hope so.

I do.

Hey, Victor, you've been terrific.

Today, as recorded, we've recorded two shows today.

Thank you for all the wisdom you shared.

I hope the rain's let up a little bit.

It's pouring as I'm speaking.

Well,

take a take a picture.

Unfortunately,

as we've discussed many a time, the water retention has not been carried out by your elected officials there.

But anyway, that said, Victor, thanks so much.

Thank you, folks, for listening.

And we will be back soon with another episode of the Victor Davis-Hansen Show.

Thank you again for listening, everyone.