447: Tommy Mello—The Secret Sauce is the Grind

Hey guys, it's me, Mike Rowe.

This is the way I heard it.

This episode is called The Secret Sauce is the Grind, a direct quote from today's guest, the one and only Tommy Mello.

I think you'd agree he is singular.

Yes, and he makes me want to sing.

They call him Tommy Mellow.

It really does.

Now I got copyright problems.

Do you?

Oh, geez.

You know what?

You know what?

Let's do it over.

I think the Mellow Yellow guys are not litigious.

I hope so.

I doubt that Tommy is litigious either because I don't think he has time to be.

The guy is just

a force of nature.

First of all, can I say he's just jacked?

That dude is jacked.

He's jacked.

Yeah, he works out a lot.

He does everything that he enjoys a lot.

Yeah, and he enjoys a lot of stuff, it seems.

Yeah.

I honestly don't know when he sleeps.

I met this guy at an energy conference of all places.

We were both there just because we were invited and we were curious.

And as a rule, I mean, I like money.

I'd like more of it.

I think it's awesome that people make money.

But, you know, just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean I'm dying to pick your brain.

Tommy is worth a billion dollars.

Yeah, he is.

He's like 42 years old.

He has the body, gentlemen, that you wish you had.

And ladies, you may wish you had it as well.

But the reason I really wanted to talk to him is that he earned every penny.

This kid grew grew up in Michigan, in Sterling Heights.

He started his first business when he was like 13.

He's a hustler.

He owns a company today called A1, Garage Door Service, started it with $50,000 in debt, did something like $300 million

last year.

This guy paints garage doors.

and installs them now.

Yeah.

Yeah, all over the country.

19 states.

Yeah.

700 employees.

People love to work for him.

I was curious to learn why.

He has a management style that is unique.

He's an example, and I make this point too in our conversation, but I'll repeat it here in advance because I really think it's important.

He's all about closing the skills gap.

He's all about learning a trade.

He's all about the blue-collar world, but he's also all about entrepreneurship and ambition and curiosity and constantly learning.

He's just insatiably curious.

Not only constantly learning, but also constantly teaching.

I mean, one of the great things about him is that he invites other garage door company people to come and talk to him to tell them what he's doing and to talk about ideas.

He shares all his ideas with all of his competitors, which is really unusual.

There's a lot of counterintuitive stuff that he does.

And for all those reasons, I would have talked to him even if he hadn't built a personal portfolio north of a billion dollars at 42.

Or is he 41?

It was 42 or 44.

I don't know.

It's in the episode.

Whatever.

There are a lot of annoying things about this guy, like his success, his physique, and his unflagging optimism.

But you can't help but like him and you can't help but admire what he's built.

And I think if you listen to what he has to say, you're liable to learn something, including the secret sauce, which I may have mentioned is the grind.

Tommy Mello, after this.

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that would justify the purchase of a gift, right?

That's what I've been doing.

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Mike.

I want to pick up, Tommy, where we just were.

What is in your blood that causes you to swell up so badly when the mosquitoes bite you?

What do you think that is?

You know, is there some upside to that kind of reaction to biting insects?

You know, the good news, I just found out it's protein.

And I happen to drink a lot of protein and eat a lot of protein.

So I think that's what it is.

Did you hit the gym on the way over here today?

No, I got it yesterday, not today.

Thank you for doing this.

I knew you.

I knew of you when I met you about, what was it, two months ago maybe?

Yeah.

At Alex Epstein's

Energy Freedom event.

Yes, down in Newport.

It's so funny the way things happen, but the ramifications of that seemingly random invite continue to reverberate for me.

I've met with the governor of Texas.

I'm going back to sign a bill with him.

I heard all about that.

That's congrats.

I've talked to

Toby Rice, who runs EQT,

big energy company in Pennsylvania.

I talked to you at length when we were there.

And just to sum up for the folks listening, there's an awareness, it feels like.

It's like a memo went out.

And a lot of people who are in the business of hiring other people have suddenly realized, oh, crap.

This is real.

Five retire two come in year after year after year after year, and the skills gap is real, and the data centers aren't going to build themselves, and neither are the submarines, and neither are the people who make garage doors and service them.

This thing is touching everybody.

So I want to talk to you about a bunch of stuff, but first and foremost, aside from your weird blood and protein levels,

what's going on with recruiting and how is it impacting your business?

Yeah, well, I'm very fortunate because I don't need somebody that needs a five-year apprenticeship to, you know, know, become a journeyman.

So, garage doors aren't licensed the same as plumbing and HVAC and some of the other industries.

But

I love home service, first and foremost.

And usually, what I find is there's a lot of people out there that are so smart.

They're so skilled, but they don't want to go down the corporate route.

They don't want to get a four-year degree or end up getting a master's degree.

And I find them in hospitality.

I find them people that have worked around a lot of different personality types, whether that's discount tires, it could be a mattress store.

But they got to be comfortable talking to people unless you're an installer.

Usually that's more of a quiet gig where you want to know your schedule.

And we've got more technicians than we do installers, but I love them both.

How many could you hire right now of both?

I mean, what's the number for people who show up eager, willing to work, wanting to learn that trade?

So we're very fortunate.

I don't know what happened in the last few years, but we hire about one in 50 that apply.

And we're booked out of classes, 50 a month through August right now.

So the next few months.

And it's a two-month training curriculum.

I start out the orientation of saying, welcome to the first day of your last job.

And it's amazing.

I do three and a half hours, no potty breaks, and I just pour into them.

And it's not really about sales or marketing or anything else.

It's about.

you're one out of 50.

And this is an opportunity to break the family curse that was all passed upon us of, you know, not being able to take care of your kids and not being able to go on your dream vacation.

So I'm going to ask you to do something today before you leave and that's dream a little bigger.

When I dreamt, I wanted to be an astronaut and I stopped dreaming a long time ago.

So I'm going to ask you guys to go back to those times and start dreaming big and asking for more.

I want you guys to buy a house.

I don't want you to go to Disney World.

I want you to go to Disney World first class.

I want you to get the AllExpress pass, skip all the lines.

And I believe you're worth it.

The biggest problem I'm going to have today is making you believe that you're worth it.

If you're just joining us, it's important to understand you're not listening to a Wharton MBA, right?

You're not a motivational speaker by training.

You're a kid from Michigan who started painting garage doors for $100 a pop.

That's right.

And

forgive me for hopscotching around, but it's your...

Your resume does matter, which, by the way, tell me if I'm wrong, but are you in possession of maybe the most ironic name name of all time?

Because mellow is not the first word that pops to mind when I listen to you.

It's so funny.

You just strike me as a guy that probably doesn't sleep much.

Maybe you do.

I don't know, but not mellow.

Well, I got a little bit of ADHD, believe it or not.

I've learned to channel that.

I'm loud.

I'm pretty obnoxious.

I'm not the quietest guy in the room.

But people are like, mellow, not so mellow.

Tell me, mellow, not so mellow is what I'm known for.

So

I have a lot of fun, though.

And and I'm around people that I love, and they know my weaknesses, they know my strengths, and you know, I'm as strong as my team.

You've heard that thing that you're only as strong as your weakest link.

Absolutely.

And I've got really, really strong people around me.

And I hear a lot of people that say this, but I never go to work.

I don't go to work anymore.

I go do what I love.

I say at the end of my orientation, if you got something great, you have a record day, you do something great for somebody.

I want you to call me.

And I want you to tell me that if something bad happens, something goes wrong, call Luke or call somebody else.

Well, as you

share some of your story with me, and I hate to ask because I know you probably told it a thousand times, but I want people to hear your journey because a lot of what we've done here with Microworks gets sometimes a little muddled because people think, oh, okay, so all you're telling me to do is work hard and learn a skill that's in demand and the world's going to beat a pathway to my door.

I do believe that can and does still happen a lot.

But I also think the willingness, this other quality that you clearly have in spades, a willingness to go to where the work is, a willingness to reinvent yourself, an entrepreneurial spirit, a measure of ambition, right?

Like those things also really matter.

I think looking back, I don't spend a lot of time talking about them because I kind of feel like, well, look,

that falls to the individual.

And so the fallout from that is I've become the guy with the foundation who says, get up earlier, stay later, work harder.

But that's not really ever enough.

Not really.

So as you relate your story, I just want people to understand what the other things are that have turned you into.

And again, I apologize because this sounds a little, I'm never all about the money, but it should be noted that I think you're worth a billion dollars.

Yeah, that thing's been pretty good.

All shucks, he says.

Your net worth is over a billion dollars.

You've made over 25 millionaires around you in your business.

So as you sum this up for me, as a guy who started this by painting garage doors, I just want people to understand that the American dream, or at least some version of it, is certainly something you've lived and are living.

Well, I'll just say this.

You know, I'm with Joe Paulish.

I was at that event, and my fiancé asked Joe one day.

He was at my house and she walks up to Joe and she says, why do you love Tommy so much?

Why do you help him?

Why are you so good to him?

And he says, I've never met somebody who's made the kind of money Tommy has and still looks out for the little guy.

Never mean, super humble.

And I almost get teary eyed because I remember where I came from.

And

I just think a lot of these people that I'm around, They need a chance because I got so many chances.

And people, they took the time for me.

And Joe is one of my best friends, and he took the time to take me under his wing.

And he's just a connector.

He's like, Who do you want to talk to?

I can name anybody.

And I'm like, Well, I just made my niece and nephews read Robert Kiyosaki's book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad.

He's like, Oh, I'll call him up right now.

He's like, He could talk to your niece and nephew.

So I just love that about him.

But I got started when really it starts when I was a kid is watching my mom and dad get a divorce.

Tommy, excuse me, but Joe Polish, he's the guy, I think,

who I heard interview Jan Yakelek over at Epoch Times.

Yeah.

Who was just sitting here two months ago talking about the Oregon harvesting nightmare?

I was there for that interview.

So were you really?

Yeah.

So that's just one more connection, folks.

This conference really is turning into like a wall of ivy.

Yeah, it's all a big connection.

It's weird how the world works.

It gets smaller.

Anyway, you're in Michigan.

Your folks get divorced.

Yeah, I was four years old, and I used to stand on the toilet in the bathroom and listen to the drywall of them arguing about bills.

And I just said to myself at a very young age that I'm not going to let money tear my family apart.

So they got a divorce and mom worked three jobs and she never went to get food stamps.

She said there was a time where the church helped us out at Thanksgiving and Christmas.

So they'd give us a turkey and some, I got a lot of student Bibles.

But my mom was too proud.

I don't know, too proud, but just she wasn't, my grandma had five kids, had to go get food stamps, the old school food stamps that were like really embarrassing.

And then they started giving like a credit card to go get stuff.

But man, we don't need to make a meal out of it, but isn't it interesting?

I remember those old food stamps.

There was no hiding them.

When you pulled them out, everybody knew you were on the dole.

Yep.

And no judgments, good, bad, right, wrong.

I'm not sure what my point is, but

what is it?

The death of shame.

Somehow or another, we decided that it would be best if nobody knew who was hurting.

And I'm not sure we did ourselves any favor.

I don't think that's a favor to anybody.

I think everybody that had to go on food stamps, it was hard enough going through pain.

My mom's whole childhood was a piece of bread and butter.

That was good.

And that's all grandma had.

And she was selling door-to-door perfume.

But she did everything she could to make it.

But that was supposed to be rock bottom.

That was something for people that absolutely hit rock bottom.

It's supposed to be a safety net till you get back up on your feet.

And she got on her feet.

And as the kids started to graduate and leave the house, she got off of them.

And I think it's a way of life now.

But

unfortunately, a lot of people abuse it.

And I think it's there.

I think it's a great thing still for a safety net for people.

But my mom just decided: listen, I'm going to keep you kids in school.

We're not moving out of the house.

I'm going to keep you around the neighborhood where you have your best friends.

So

I ended up getting a job.

I mowed lawns, shoveled snow.

I hated asking mom for money.

I hated it.

So I knew I had to be a self-starter.

I got a job when I was 12 washing dishes under the table, $4.05 an hour.

And I had more money than anybody.

I mean, if I wanted something, I bought it.

And so I learned to work hard as a young kid and

wash dishes, bust tables, serve tables.

I bartended.

And then I started a landscaping business in Arizona when I moved there.

And I did pretty well considering it's landscaping.

And I just I didn't go about things the same way I used to do water conservation analysis figure out if I should put a drip system in and save you a bunch of money so I picked up a lot of commercial work how old are you at this time I was 19 when I started that business

and what was your first business that would have been my first business is landscaping okay and well the first thing I did this is pretty cool is one day I'm watching TV and I saw this awesome machine and it was like the guy was in shape and I'm like I need that it was called a Boflex.

And I'm like, I need to buy that Boflex.

So I call up and they're like, it's $2,400.

And I'm like, I don't have $2,400.

So I go in the Arizona Republic, the old newspaper classified section.

I look up and there's a Boflex.

Slightly used.

Slightly used, barely used.

And I call the guy up and he goes, you're the 20th person that called me.

Somebody already came and picked it up the minute the ad came out on Sunday.

And my roommate's walking by at the time and says, have you ever heard of that website called Craigslist?

And I go, Craigslist?

No, I never heard of of it.

I type it in, craigsww.craigslist.com.

And I go there and I find five Boflexes for $700, $500, $300.

And they were all over the place.

I went and bought all of them.

And I ended up putting an ad in the Arizona Republic for four years.

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You're reselling used Boflexes.

So I'm buying them on Craigslist, selling them in the Arizona Republic.

And two years into this, I'm flipping around TV and I see Chuck Norris, the total gym.

So I go on Craigslist,

25 total gyms, go buy all of them, place in that for two more years in the Arizona Republic.

And it was the first time I knew what this fancy word was called arbitrage.

Yep.

You buy it here, sell it here.

And it was a completely different audience.

Chuck did the same thing with the Thigh Master for two years now.

He literally made a killing.

So, okay, so now you're like 13, 14 years old doing this?

No, no, that was in my late teens.

And I was working at Cheesecake Factory.

I was a bus boy, and I walked into Cheesecake Factory for my normal bus boy shift.

And this is when everything changed.

I remember this day vividly.

I said, why do I got to stay here?

There's no tables.

We don't close till 11.

It's 9 o'clock at night.

And the manager said, because I said so.

And

that wasn't good for me.

I remember being very angry.

So the next night I'm working the same shift, the only bus boy there.

We're open till 11.

And I said, why do I got to stay here?

He goes, because, Tommy, you make $5.15 an hour.

If a table does come in, I'm going to have to bus it.

And I'd rather keep you here till 11.

So if it does come in, you could bus it.

I said, thank you.

That's all I wanted was somebody to tell me why and the reasoning behind it.

A lot of people were just this authority figure.

They didn't want to tell me.

So I decided I'm never going to be that guy.

If somebody's got a real question for me, I'm going to give them the honest to God truth.

So long story short, I get into garage doors painting them.

My roommate says, listen, if you could paint these garage doors, I'd get you $100 a piece.

So I go to Home Depot, I go to Lowe's, I go to Acehart, where I figured out there's this paint called Speed Coat by Glidden, and it's $12 a gallon.

And you got to buy the tape and paper.

I bought a Magnum 5.

It was about $600, and I had a G20 Infinity, a 96, so I had good gas mileage.

I called everybody in the yellow book and I became their primary painter.

And I could paint 10 doors Saturday, 10 doors Sunday.

What do you mean you called everybody in the yellow book?

The yellow pages?

The yellow pages, yeah.

So I called every garage door company and became their primary painter.

And so I had to meet up with all these garage door technicians and they're handing me these samples because I'd have to match the paint.

And I tell the client I can't match oxidation, but I'll get as close as I could.

Tommy, this is so random.

Why garage doors?

Why do they need, like, what help people understand

what that niche is well

garage drawers in 2005 my buddy started managing at a company it was a really big company at the time and he said

there's no paint there's no color that comes out from the manufacturer that matches their house so you got to paint match the house so they cut out a sample of the old they grind out a little sample and then they go match it so home depot you place it under this little thing and it'll match as close as it could get so i would go you know i go from house to house.

I literally, and this is MapQuest.

This is before they had like Tom Tom or any Garmins.

Right.

So, I set up my route and I'd go knock it all out.

And

I was really good.

And I meet with these technicians, and they're like, Yeah, they were making a lot of money.

So, I convinced my other roommate to start a business, and

I knew how to do an EIN.

What's that?

An employee identification number.

I knew how to get an LLC.

Limited liability corporation.

Yeah, yeah.

So, or a company, a limited liability company.

It's not a corporation, believe it or not.

And so, we picked a name, and I remember we were talking to my partner's really smart business cousin.

And he goes, you know, A1 falls first in the phone book.

And this time, that was the first thing we did: put a phone book ad out there.

Hence, A1 garage door service, which was the biggest mistake of my career because it happens to be there's 93 other

A1.

No one's B2.

No, it's all

A1 or triple A.

Triple A, quadruple A.

So we started A1.

And,

you know, unfortunately, my roommate, amazing guy, best friend, roommate, business partner, that doesn't work very well.

And I realized there was a lot of contempt and animosity.

So in 2010, I got the courage to say, look, you keep the business or I'll take the business, but whoever does it's going to take the debt.

And he said, look, he's like, I love you, dude.

We'll stay best friends.

I'm going to move to Montana to be closer to family.

And what do you do when you got nobody to trust and you're trying to make it through life?

Is you call mom.

So I called mom and I said, hey, I know you've lived your whole life.

2010.

I mean, she's 1954.

So at that point, she's 56 years old.

And I said, I want you to take a flyer on me.

Would you and my stepdad Bill consider moving out to Phoenix and help me run this business?

They're still in Michigan at the time.

Yeah.

Big ask.

And from a kid who didn't want to ask her for money once upon a time.

Now leave everything out.

Well, I did.

I gave her a job making $16 an hour, which she was embarrassed about.

She's like, I don't know if I even want your money.

So they were always good at saving money.

And they did.

She called me back a week later, said, we're going to sell the house and move out there.

And they moved in a little townhouse, three stories up.

Small place.

It's a tiny place.

And my mom answered phones.

And my stepdad bill did everything I hated, which is payroll and did some of the door estimates.

I liked marketing.

I liked sales.

I liked training.

I loved the stuff I love, they let me do.

And

2014 comes around, and we're making the business work.

And I meet this really cool guy.

His name's Adam Cronenberg.

And he says, hey, I'll come into the business.

I got a finance degree.

And he always jokes when we talk now because he's like, dude, there would be three weeks where you wouldn't pay me.

And then you give me a $3,000 check.

He goes, it was so sporadic.

He goes, if we were having a bad week, you'd call me up and say, this is not a good week to get paid.

And if I was having, if we were having a bad week, he'd call me up and say, I need you to go run jobs.

Can you go run two days worth of work?

And I'd go set a record.

And he's like, you, you made it.

We did payroll.

We're good.

And we're still painting garage doors at this time.

I was painting garage doors from 2005 to 2010.

And then I got just into the garage door business with mom.

Mom and Bill moved out.

Is that mom?

That's mama.

Nice.

That's probably

around a little bit before she moved out.

Are you a mama's boy?

I am.

Yeah.

Mom is, she's the best.

Yeah.

So long story short, 2017 was a good year.

We got on the right CRM.

I started the podcast, and I met a lot of, I met a guy named Al Levy, the seven-power contractor that taught me standard operating procedures, checklists, the right way to do an org chart.

And at this time, I was his last student before he retired.

And he.

Speaking of which, college at all?

Yeah, so 2010.

So, believe it or not, I was pre-dental.

I took anatomy, physiology, organic chemistry, advanced calculus.

Decided when I interned with the dentist, he goes, listen, dude, do not become a dentist.

Go to business school.

He's like, I still owe 300 grand and I'm 47 years old at the time.

And so I ended up getting a bachelor's degree in business.

And my mom encouraged me to get a master's degree.

So I did.

part-time Mondays from 4 to 10.

But I got to tell you, Mike, I didn't use that degree.

I learned how to network well.

I learned a little bit about public speaking.

And I did learn about an interesting man that I've become good friends with is Robert Cheddini.

He wrote the book Influence.

Nothing really came out of that.

But I do have a master's degree, but people ask, would you do it again?

And I'm like, absolutely not.

It didn't really serve any purpose.

It didn't help me.

We were doing annual reports, taking these things apart for Home Depot.

Nothing that I could use in home service.

But it was funny because, you know, excuse my French, I don't know, but they'd say,

I show up and they called it the rape van, this big white van with white letter or black lettering.

And I'd show up greasy after I'd be working jobs all day.

And they were like, they'd look at me like I was like literally a peasant.

And like, why are you even, a lot of the people in that room were like, why are you even here?

And I'm like, well, I'm not going to go ever work in the corporate world, but I decided I wanted to get an education.

And I smell like grease.

And people acted like I had like a disease or something.

They didn't want to be around me.

There's a, my people were in there, my roommate later on in life.

And

I just remember looking back,

they're great people, but they were moving up the corporate ladder.

And I think I was the only one in there that didn't have a purpose for getting the degree to move up to get a raise, to get a promotion.

Why are you covered with grease painting garage doors?

Well, this is when I started the, I was working in the garage.

And trust me, they're oily rollers and the springs.

You're going to get dirty.

And

yeah, I mean, look, found the right mentors, was always curious, still curious, stayed humble.

I remember one day, Al Levi, one of the best mentors of all time, he's like a second daddy.

He goes, I said, hey, Al, I've been reading a lot of books.

I got a couple ideas.

He goes, stop.

He goes, until you know my way, I don't want you to learn anything else.

Until we apply these principles, you know your numbers, your org chart, your depth chart.

Until you do exactly what I tell you to do, I don't want any ideas.

I want you focused.

I want your cell phone off when we're working together, or I'm going to fire you.

And I was like, yes, sir.

And that's how it went.

And I was always good with my grandparents.

So I learned how to respect elders early.

And Al's still a good buddy.

We still talk all the time.

He's a mentor of mine.

But it's crazy because everybody I called, I said, who's got the most private jets?

It happened to be all the HVAC guys.

And when I got on a Service Titan, all of these people invited me.

So people understand, Service Titan was the private equity.

Service Titan is a CRM.

that's known for HVAC Plumbing Electrical.

And the founders are

Ara and Vahe.

And I called in and I said, I want to be on your CRM.

This is 2017.

And CRM stands for Customer Relation Management System.

It's the operating system for the business.

And so I call him up and everybody at service time is like, no, no, no, no, no.

You're a garage guy.

We only do HVAC Plumbing Electrical.

And I got a hold of Ara on LinkedIn.

And he called me and he goes, this is Ara.

And I said, hey, listen, brother, I'm like you, man.

I'm just trying to get ahead in life.

I said, give me a shot.

He goes, my father was an HVAC guy.

Vahe's dad was a plumber.

We're super focused.

We're not interested in garage companies.

You can understand focus, can't you, Tommy?

And I said, absolutely.

And I applaud you for that.

I said, if you get me into your system, you won't need any other garage companies.

I'm going to be the largest in the country.

I said, I really need you to take a chance on me.

I said, a lot of people gave up on me.

Take a chance.

And

they did.

So at this point, how many employees do you have at A1?

At that point, I probably had 40.

2017.

Okay, and Service Titan is big.

Service Titan has 1,200 or 1,200 home service companies on them now.

Right.

You can't have Titan in your name and be small.

Yeah.

I mean, I would take real hood spa.

to come out of the gate with nothing and call yourself service titan they've got some great stories man they've confided in me a lot.

I hang out at their house.

They've invited me to every single thing.

When they rung the bell and went public, they've really treated me like old.

I mean, they're like, they're almost like family to me.

They've always, I've never asked for an affiliate fee or to give me back money.

I said, just help me for develop the garage or industry.

And they did.

And they've done everything.

They're tried and true to everything they've said.

Their word is their bond.

If they shake your hand, they mean it.

They're very, very good.

And I asked them one day, I asked Aura, I said, how do you keep a fiduciary responsibility to your investors, but yet stay committed to the contractor?

And he goes, well, take example, you.

He goes,

none of the financial investors in our company would have ever let a garage drawer company come in, but you've got us over 200 clients, and you're the biggest in garage drawers now.

And so every time we've done something to make it right or take a chance on somebody, it's always worked out for our investors.

So we still stay true to our contractors.

And that's how they grew: staying super committed to their contractors.

And how big is A1 today?

We're in 23 states, 42 markets,

about to cross 900 coworkers, I call them.

And,

you know, hopefully going to cross the $325 million mark.

But revenue is for vanity and profit is for sanity.

So a lot of people brag about revenue.

And then I realized revenue does not make the world go round.

You got to make profit.

Profit.

Profit.

It occurs to me that Tommy Mello, like so many other guests on this podcast, is a true American giant.

What he's built over at A1 is proof positive that the American dream is alive and well, not just for him, but for his thousands of employees.

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Service.

Yeah.

Service the distribution, service the debt.

Everybody learns that, I think, in their own way, whether you have a business or not.

Whether you're just trying to run a household, really.

Yeah.

You know?

But the tension you were talking about is interesting between like you're a big company and you're trying to figure out if this investment makes sense and on a much smaller level I think about a similar tension you know I I'm in business with a bunch of home service companies and they all know that recruiting is sort of the thing that comes out of microworks and it's important to me and I've always wanted to work with companies who are enthusiastic to talk about the opportunities that exist within the company, right?

Because I just think that's an important part of getting the whole message out there.

And, you know, a pretty good indication of what the culture is like in a given company.

The problem is, I think in the back of people's minds, consumers' minds, when they see a company saying,

look how good

we do.

That's right.

All of a sudden, that translates, well, look how much this is going to cost.

Exactly.

So that's on my mind more and more too.

But you've been very generous with your employees.

I just don't really understand where the

who's your competition in this space.

I mean, how do you think about that?

Who do you take from?

When I, well, the thing is about us is we like to build from the ground up.

Like I prefer to take somebody with a great personality and teach them and to take somebody that's already set in their ways.

That's a really good technician.

I don't want to find somebody that smiles, that treats grandma right, that goes in super respectful, that you could trust around your two daughters and your wife when you're not home.

I don't want the guys that have grown up in the industry necessarily, and they're great people as well, but I like to teach them from the beginning our core values and the way we do things and the competitive side of things and really set them up for life.

And, you know, we do have a lot of competition, but I don't look at it as competition.

Look, winner is focused on winning, losers focused on winners.

So everybody's focused on us, what we're doing next.

And I, you know, and I invite them in.

I invite all the garage companies.

We have a thing called vertical track, and there'll be 200 garage companies there.

I'm going to tell them everything we're working on and how we do it.

And people think I'm crazy.

When I started a podcast, every single one of the people in my management team said, why are you giving away all of our secrets?

I go, well, I'll teach you how to get a six-pack, too.

It doesn't mean you're going to do it.

I mean, it's not hard.

The stuff we do, it's just.

Everybody knows what they should be doing, but they don't do it.

So I don't feel like we're giving away the secret sauce.

The secret sauce is we grind.

We come in, we work hard, we take care of our clients.

And you can tell people that, but it's a different thing from saying and doing.

We buy all brand new trucks.

We give guys $6,000 worth of tools.

They can make a great living, but they got to work hard.

I mean, our technicians' job are not easy, but yes, they make great money.

They get great benefits.

They get an opportunity to earn equity in the business.

And I'm proud of that.

And I still think we're in the fetal stages.

We're just getting started.

I mean, we are in the earliest part of what this business will become.

And what I love is I can leave.

It doesn't need me.

Yeah.

Well, you built something that's self-sustaining.

And I mean, that's only the hardest thing to do.

But well, I mean, before I ask you what drives you or some other stupid question, let me just pivot and say that this, the idea of hiring people that you would want to welcome into your house is really interesting and I think kind of,

well, you're...

you're addressing a problem that exists in home services.

I was just talking to Matt Malone, who I know you know over at.

I was like calling him on the way here.

Did you?

Yeah, he didn't answer.

Yeah, really.

Good story.

Good story.

I like Matt.

We actually, full disclosure, I've been working with Groundworks.

They sponsor this podcast, and I've been doing some work for them.

And I was so impressed with what they did for their employees, right?

They ran that ESOP program like all the way down into the dirt.

And I was there in Virginia Beach.

when they made that announcement a couple years ago.

It's like 5,000 guys.

It's a financial event.

Suddenly they're owners.

And my question is, well, for me anyway, the idea of having somebody under my house working on my foundation or a crawl space or waterproofing or in the garage doing things, they're not just, they're not workers, no matter what you call them.

They're emissaries for their brand.

And they're there on your behalf in your house.

talking to you about something that's probably

got you unsettled.

You know, my partner, Mary, is dealing with an HVAC problem right now, as you know.

It's maddening because it's like there's something magical to this stuff.

They show up clean, they go home dirty, and hopefully your problem's fixed.

And meanwhile, they're up in your attic and they're down in your basement, they're walking through your house.

And

how do you train people to be mindful of that?

and

understand that they're not just there to do a job, but they're guests in somebody's home and a representative of who you are and who your mom is.

is.

Well, that's what it is about is

we teach them to ask a lot of questions.

If you walk out of a job and you don't know what they do for a living, you don't know their kids' names, the dog's name, how long they plan on staying in the home where their kids go to school, you failed.

And I can't teach you to want to learn, but when you walk out of these houses, do you know how many relationships I built in garages?

People would invite me to church.

I got asked to be part of the Mormon church about a thousand times.

And people would invite me, you know, before I, you know,

I have a fiancé now, but back in the day when I wasn't, when I was single, people were trying to introduce me to their daughters because I came in with a big smile.

And I was just always, I always said, thank you so much for the opportunity.

I know you have a choice.

And when I leave here, I'm going to ask you a question.

Are you happy?

And I want to make sure that you're happy because the biggest compliment I could ever receive is a referral or if you leave me a review.

But the most important thing is that I left your house better than when I came in and I solved your problems and I give you options.

I don't want to give you ultimatums, say yes or no.

If you don't like what I have to offer, then let's just pick another option.

And

I don't think we're the highest price.

I think we're the best investment.

And I'm very careful on how I choose my words.

I don't say sign the contract.

I say, can you okay the paperwork?

These little subtleties change everything.

And I just know I've met a few clients in my life that have brought me thousands and thousands of jobs and you never know when they're going to come and the worst clients that that absolutely hated our company when i call them up and say listen when my mom came out and i tell them the story and i listened to them and usually i'm angrier than they are at the situation and i say

i'm going to let you know that he's going to get written up and he's going to have a one-on-one with me and this will never and they're like no he doesn't deserve to get fired and and all of a sudden the story changes but i get angry when somebody has a bad experience now listen if it's a price thing i don't promise people I'm going to be the cheapest because you asked me to come out the same day with a drug test and background technician that's going to treat you and your family correct and have all the parts and have a brand new vehicle and honor my warranties.

So I want to show up when you need this most.

I want to give you options and I want to fix it the right way, not the easy way.

And if we're doing that, we're winning.

And I don't, I don't ever say, we're not called discount garage drawers.

A1 actually means like top notch.

Luckily, I didn't plan on, I didn't know there was a, I had to figure figure out another way like it's top notch that's a one that's a one from day one baby right so

yeah but we look a lot at the people we look at their background and we say are they honest are they humble are they willing to learn and do they want more in life because some people no matter what you feed them and how much you take care of them they just don't think they're worth it and i want people Sometimes they have really, you know, this is a big problem is their teeth.

They never embrace it.

So that's one of the first things we look at.

Are you happy with yourself?

We talk about getting in shape.

We have a dream manager.

Their full-time job is to work with people to work on and their significant other to financially stable.

Do you got a budget?

Are you want to lose weight?

Are you going to bring a kid into this world?

Do you have a vacation account?

So, you know, the Michael McKellis Profit First, where they'll split up accounts.

We teach them how to do that.

And

the results have been.

fantastic.

And I'm happy our partner allows us to do those things because.

Your partner being Service Titan?

Our partner, Core Tech, which is the private equity partner that Matt Malone was with.

Yes.

And they are fantastic.

They are the best in the business.

Well, I got to ask you about this then, too, because I haven't met Cortec.

I know some of the guys at KKR.

I know the guy that orchestrated the ESOP that Groundworks did, Pete Stavros over at KKR, Ownership Works.

Yeah, I've been studying that program.org.

Yep.

Yeah.

So,

that's really what I want to talk about.

I mean,

how do you think

most people can't make the kind of commitment that you've made to their employees, or at least they haven't.

And I think part of the reason they haven't is because the lines have been so drawn for so long between labor and management, right?

Union and non-union and all of that.

And I look at what Groundworks did, and I look at companies like yours, where it's not a judgment on unions being good or bad.

It's just saying,

have you eliminated the need for them?

Well, I'm a big fan of unions back in the day.

I mean, you watched the men who built America, and they were doing some pretty treacherous things.

And I believe now

they're as corrupt, if not more corrupt, than corporate America.

I mean, the things that they do is like, you know, they stop the whole plant from manufacturing.

And it's, look, I'm not anti-union, and I don't want it to come off that way because I don't really get into politics on podcasts.

It's not what I do.

I'm a small garage door company.

Well, not small, but you're tiny.

But I'll tell you that

private equity learned a long time ago to do what's called profit units.

What I started before private equity was an equity incentive program.

And what every strong company does when they go public is they do stock options for the senior management, middle management.

And so I teach this equity incentive program.

I'm writing a book on it right now called Pay Them What They're Worth.

It's coming out in September.

And the idea is.

What was your last book?

Was it Elevate?

Elevate.

Build a business where everybody wins.

Yeah.

And this next one is Pay Them What They're Worth.

And this idea being people are going to start sprinting in the same direction.

And they're going to have a stake in the outcome.

And they're going to act like an owner.

They're going to self-police.

I don't love ESOPs.

Because I don't believe everybody's earned it.

And they just come in and everybody gets a fair shake.

My old CFO came from an ESOP, was there 15 years as a CFO, got $500,000.

He worked for me three years, got a lot more than that.

I won't go into numbers, but the fact is you come in, you got a fair shot of earning it.

You know exactly what you need to do.

It's a Jack Welch.

You know what you need to do to keep your job here.

10% is going to leave each year.

But this idea that, hey, everybody gets a piece.

I don't love that.

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong.

It's better than not giving at all.

But it's not truly a meritocracy.

It's not meritocracy.

It's not a meritocracy, right?

So I'm really big in a meritocracy and you could earn this.

Everyone knows everybody's got a fair shot.

If you want help, if you got a will, I'm going to find a way.

If you lie cheater still, we're not going to do business and we're not even going to be friends anymore.

We don't need a lie cheater still.

And if you're struggling, my favorite three letters is ASK.

Just ask.

That's all I ever do.

I had a gentleman in my house yesterday.

I'm learning more about this other industry.

And I mean, I just asked him questions for four hours.

And I loved it because he's given me so much information.

I mean, just that opportunity to sit down with this gentleman and the kindest guy.

And I learned so much.

And he goes, the one thing in this, this word,

yeah, it's not geisha, it's this Indian word.

But what it means is treat everybody, including yourself.

Fair.

Don't ever judge somebody.

Like treat everybody like they're human beings.

And he's like, that's what, when I die, I want people to say that word.

That's what I want on my casket.

And I just learned so much from him.

And the point being is if more people would have the tenacity, whatever the word is, to just go out there and not feel stupid, go ask.

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I ask this a lot.

I mean, in terms of virtues, you know, what's the most important?

And the conversations are always great because there are a lot of terrific virtues, but the one you're just talking about that gets overlooked a bunch is curiosity.

Like, if you can actually sit there and ask somebody questions for four hours straight and not make it about yourself, that's a,

well,

it's it's not a gift.

It's a muscle.

You can actually work that muscle out, you know, and,

but I don't know how you teach it.

I don't know how you make your employees more curious than they would otherwise be.

That's probably mom's department.

You know, she must have done something smart when you were a kid.

I don't know what it was either, but I tell you this, is the curiosity has only gone up as the more success happens, the more I want to learn.

I mean, I'm a garage door guy guy at an energy freedom summit with governors and senators and God knows who else was there.

And people will probably, if they ask me, you know, I'm not, no reason to be there.

I just wanted to go and learn.

Yeah.

And so this curiosity bubbled in, it bubbles into all these things.

And I just wish people would say,

ask more questions.

That when I'm in a garage and I find out somebody does something, I remember one day I'm in this garage, this guy's talking about Bernie Sanders.

And I don't know much about Bernie Sanders.

I said, really?

What do you like about about Bernie Sanders?

And he's talking, he's telling me about Vermont and all this stuff.

And I learned a lot.

I'm not like closed off.

If you don't believe whatever religion or politics or whatever career you chose, I'm going to ask a lot of questions and I'm going to be curious because I'm not going to have a debate with you.

I'm just going to ask you where you're coming from.

And if I could come from that stance, I'm winning.

And the reason I went to Alex Epstein's is I watched him explain global warming and climate change.

And he said, we're going to talk about this box.

Or he goes, I'm for green energy.

And I watched him at this lecture he did.

And I said, that is the best thing I've ever heard.

So I got a hold of him and I said, I want you to teach me, not argue or debate, but how to make a point and have other people see it through my lens.

And it's emotional intelligence is what it is.

He sat right there and said, essentially, this will sound like a straw man argument, but it's really not.

There are only two ways to think about this.

We either need to do what we can to save the environment and the climate, or we need to do what we can to save ourselves from the environment and the climate.

Obviously, there's a lot of wiggle room in between, but

if you come at it from the belief that we have some nurturing mother, nature, Gaia, right, who's this benevolent force and we're here thanks to her largesse and now if we don't screw it up, we'll have a place to live.

Or, you know, we're on a cold, indifferent rock hurtling at the speed of sound through nothingness.

And, you know, look around and you'll, you'll see a fire not far from here or maybe a hurricane in western North Carolina.

And so how do you think about it?

That's what he taught a lot of people who listen to this podcast, was you just have to set the table

correctly.

And if you if you start out with a belief that you know, it's not nice to fool mother nature, right?

You remember the old ads, she's this benevolent goddess who's looking over us, you know.

They'd have a Native American in the background saying you're screwing up Mother Earth.

Yeah, yeah.

The fact is, not a lot of people are dying like they used to.

We know about it now in advance.

There's, look, at the end of the day, I believe what the future holds, it looks bright.

I'm, I'm an optimist.

I'm not death coming to everybody.

There is no heaven.

You're screwed.

I just believe in, I think human beings are a good thing.

I don't think, you know, half the population needs to go away.

It's not grim and black and dark for me.

It could be.

I don't know what AI is going to bring.

I don't know what the weather patterns are going to be.

I don't pretend I do know, but I just, I think

we're not by accident.

What you know is a well-painted, well-appointed garage door can dramatically increase the value of your home.

That's exactly right.

But 194% return on investment.

Is that true?

Yeah.

Remodel magazine seven years in a row.

The Wall Street Journal put out two articles.

It's like the hottest thing, like kitchens, bathrooms.

You might think, everybody says, remodel your kitchen, remodel your bathroom, you'll get the best ROI.

You put $100 in your grocery, you take $194 out.

We trademark the garage door as the smile of your home.

It's 40% of your Curba pill.

And

it is.

You know, I watch a James Bond movie

and I'm looking at the background of the garage doors.

I love what I do.

I didn't know I would love this so much, but I'm like, that's a cloupe.

Oh, that's terrific.

It really is a passion.

It really is exciting.

And it's something that I've came to love.

It's like I said, I don't go to work and I watch people.

I get text.

Yesterday in Minnesota, we saved a lady's life.

He gave her a CPR.

She was choking.

And I'll tell you this, three months ago, we had to go out to a a lady's house, and I got the opportunity to go out there.

And

the grandmother was there.

And this little girl, five years old, she's 10 now, Ronald McDonald,

cancer patient.

And I watched this video, and I get out of the truck, and grandma's outside, and I'm crying.

And I'm,

I don't have any kids.

I don't have any kids yet, but I just, I thought that day,

as I'm talking to this grandma about how hard it's been to watch this little girl go through chemo and barely make it.

And she's so far, it's, it's really good news.

But,

you know, obviously we, we donated the garage door and the opener, but that day, I remember as I'm driving away thinking, my problems are so small.

Anything I could complain about, anything not going right is minuscule.

It's nothing compared to what that family's going through.

Yeah.

To have to live with that, to watch that happening to somebody that

that you give your life up for in a heartbeat, you know, if you're her parent.

So, but we go through these things all the time.

There was

another thing the other day, and

the technician calls me up and says, This lady's going through cancer.

She's got three months to live.

I said, Comp that door.

By pricing right, we're able to do these things.

Otherwise, I'd be bankrupt if I did that.

But a lot of times we'll give stuff for unfortunate people away, and we do stuff for vets, and we get involved with Make a Wish.

We're getting heavily involved with.

Boy, I'll tell you, man, the first one of those I did years ago, same story, basically.

I'm busy.

I'm trying to grow this thing.

I got to be in 10 places at once.

And I had agreed months earlier

to meet this sick kid.

And they're flying him in, and the family's coming in.

And I'm in between dirty jobs.

And I got maybe,

maybe, 20 minutes with this kid.

And

yeah, the minute you walk in and sit down, the rest of your day's finished.

You're on the phone.

Just cancel, cancel, cancel.

We're going to be here for a while.

And

I was thinking of this the other day, just trying to enumerate those moments in my life where you can literally, it's like a hand grabs you by the scruff of the neck and goes, no, man, not there, here.

And it's perspective and it's context.

And you're lucky to get those moments.

What do do you do internally with the guy, your employee who saves a woman's life in Minnesota?

Like, what do you do?

Like, how does that?

I'll tell you what I do is I interview him and we,

it's literally,

I get to interview one to two technicians a week, and the whole company sees it.

I don't need to call

my PR company and get this on blast on all the news.

I just like recognition.

I think a lot of people, they like to be rewarded with recognition.

And I'm just very proud.

I've not talked to the homeowner.

I'm probably going to give her a call, let her get a hold of herself.

But I got three different calls and two text messages when it happened.

And

I mean, I got the voice of what happened.

If you, if I can play it for you later, but one of the guys

sent me exactly what happened, and it's pretty amazing.

Yeah.

The voice text.

Yeah, it's

because those are like giant life moments.

Like that guy's life will never be the same.

Like one minute you're put in a garage door and the next minute you're

literally saving somebody's life.

And so now the question is,

how do you acknowledge it without being gross?

How do you

like what do you

the opportunity is that he's

you know, my CFO is kind of, he's the most amazing guy on the planet.

He's perfect for me.

What's his name?

What's that?

What's his name?

Adrian.

And he's from

England.

And there's certain things.

I'm not allowed to just hand out cash or give gift cards or anything like that because then they got to pay taxes on it.

And we are straight laced.

I mean, it's black and white.

There's no gray.

So I called him up the other day and I said, can we switch our credit card instead of the cash back to get points?

Because I know all the IRS, they love to use their points.

So we'll buy points.

And I can give the guy flights and I can give them gift cards.

And it's all kosher with the IRS.

He says, yeah, we could probably do that.

But I love recognition and so we do these trips.

I interviewed one of my techs and he told me to keep it discreet, but we won't give his name.

And I'm interviewing him for one of the Thursday meetings.

And

he says, you know, Tommy,

I had a sister.

And

in 1992, I had taught her how to hit the button on the garage door and run out.

And I was like, in my head, I go, oh.

and he goes,

the reason they have safety eyes is because of her.

It crushed, it crushed her.

She died.

The garage door did.

Yeah, in 1992.

And he says,

you know, I've been at corporate America.

I had 40 employees work under me.

And every night since then, I've had night terrors.

And he goes, so I've been going to therapy ever since then.

Every day I got to go to a therapist.

And he goes, goes, the answer was to come work for a garage drawer company and confront my fear.

So I did some research, and you were the company that I found that I wanted to be part of.

And he goes, I haven't had a night terror in three months since I started here, but you better believe when I walk in the home, I'm going to make sure everything's safe.

And he goes, so I know

I'm making the world a better place, one garage door at a time.

And that was like,

That's pretty crazy.

I was like, geez.

Well, I'd love to get more of your thoughts on danger and risk.

You said something earlier that conjured up an image.

We were talking about unions.

And once upon a time,

my favorite words, still no better way to start a story than that.

That's right.

But once upon a time,

unions served a different function in our country.

And once upon a time,

our people had a different relationship with risk.

And I'm thinking of that picture.

I'm sure you've seen it.

New York skyline, 12 guys.

Oh, sitting on the top.

See if you can find that, Chuck.

Yeah, it's such a great photo.

I had that at my house for a decade, black and white.

Yeah, and they're just, it's their lunch break.

Yeah.

And they're crazy.

They're probably six, seven, maybe 800 feet up in the air.

Oh, yeah.

Sitting on a piece of steel.

And one guy, you know, they got their lunch box.

The guy's having his coffee.

One of them's telling a joke.

And they're just sitting there.

They're not tied off.

They're in defiance of, I mean, every single OSHA protocol that could possibly be imagined or articulated.

There's nothing, I'm not saying

this is a photo to be emulated, but I'm saying it is so representative of a time in our country where we thought differently about risk and part of the way I think that impacts unions and work.

You know, it's like the more we've done to eliminate risk, we've paid in some way for that.

You know, it's not a bargain I think most people understand.

I don't.

I know it was transactional, and I'm not sure we got the, there it is.

Look at those crazy sons of bitches.

Jesus, like guys like this cigarette.

I mean, safety is the most important thing.

I get that.

And we want our, we wear still-toed shoes and we do the right stuff.

But I mean, at this point,

Look at there was a big fire here in California.

It's going to take them three years to get the permits.

I mean, they make it impossible.

The red tape, the things you got to go through, it's anti-productivity.

It's anti-growth.

And I understand the need to be safe, but

there's measures that just go beyond the scope of what's necessary where it becomes anti-growth, anti-good for America.

And I just think, you know, China's going up.

They got...

coal mines going up every day.

And don't get me wrong.

Like, let's do the right thing, but let's do it within reason.

One a week for the next 30 years between India and China, coal-fired power plants, one a week.

That's happening for real.

And, you know, there are probably guys over there working on the, what was it, the Three Gorges Dam and some of these unbelievable construction projects who are taking their lunch breaks, much like those guys were back when they were building the Chrysler Building or whatever it was.

But my point is, things are always changing all the time, everywhere.

And we're we're in a country and in a world and in a time right now where we're compliance.

Yep.

That's the C word.

That's the real, right?

You guys have to be in compliance.

But of course, just because you're in compliance doesn't mean

you're out of danger.

And it's certainly not an indicator of success.

It's just a thing you got to do.

We had a guy lose his finger doing everything right.

He's wearing his gloves.

And those are the hardest scenarios, right?

I mean, look, I don't care about my E-mod score and workers.

Like, I'm not worried about, I'm more worried about that guy, you know, and it's, it's horrifying, but out of 600 guys in the field, you know, it's impossible.

I don't get those phone calls very much.

I think my team protects me.

I got to walk in with a smile.

If I don't walk in to work with a smile, everyone wonders what's going on.

So it's not that I can't handle bad news.

I just, they protect me and I've got a great team.

And they're like, oh, God, we don't want to tell Tommy.

It's not like,

it's not like somebody stole something, but literally they protect me a lot.

And I appreciate that about them is they're always trying to make sure that they're stepping up to the plate every single time and they do.

I mean,

we were in Milwaukee last week at management meetings and I'm telling you, I was just blown away.

I just stood there and I stood up and I said, you know how proud I am of you guys?

Like

this thing takes so many functions to run.

I mean, we've got so much inventory and trucks and camera systems and training and recruiting and compliance, the C word, and all these things and marketing and booking rates and the dispatchers and software.

And it's a garage door company.

I mean, it's more complex than people think.

And what happened, I was telling Mary this, is, you know, everybody hates private equity.

And I'm like, why?

Private equity, it could be a hedge fund.

It could be disguised in any which way an investor.

Because they read Barbarians at the Gate and because they saw Wall Street.

And they, you know, it's always about the outsider coming in, breaking something down into parts, selling it at a profit at the expense of the employees and ultimately competition and quality.

That's the rap, right?

Well, 2020 COVID, which was never fun for anybody, but we were deemed essential.

I mean, if you couldn't get out of your garage, you couldn't go to the hospital.

You couldn't go get groceries.

If you're trapped, if a faucet breaks, a hot water heater goes bad, an air conditioning, it's 140 degrees in the house.

And I just remember it changed the whole thing.

Like everything changed.

Hotels were shutting down, nail salons, bowling alleys, movie theaters, everything was closed.

And all of a sudden, we get a phone call that we're deemed essential.

One of our lawyers called and they said, you guys go to work.

You guys are good.

And all of a sudden, yes, the money came because They realized we're not just blue-collar idiots.

We run a really sophisticated business.

We've got key performance indicators.

We know exactly what our growth is going to be.

And

it was no longer, and I was never embarrassed to tell people what I did.

I'd be talking to a dentist, a lawyer, and a doctor, and I'd be smiling, I'm a garage door guy.

And I was not embarrassed at all.

Well, you shouldn't be, but I'll tell you, I didn't even think about it until you just said it.

If your garage door is busted and you can't get out, you can't get your vehicle out, you're right.

That's, it's, that's just not, hey, it's, it's your house's smile.

Let's dress it up and paint it.

This thing's got to work.

It's got to open.

Right.

So that's, I mean, is that the

you're installing these things, right?

Well, I'll tell you this.

About 40% of our revenue comes from new doors.

60% comes from service.

And when you look at how the buyer's persona works, as we've done a lot of studies on our industry, we've spent millions of dollars studying,

is it discretionary or non-discretionary?

Could we make it through a Great Depression if it happened?

And what's great is no matter what, you might not replace your door, but you're still going to get it fixed.

And even in 2007, eight, when we were going through the shitstorm of people losing their house, they were giving it back to the banks.

I remember talking to so many clients saying, hey, listen,

I'm giving this back to the bank, but I need to be able to get my...

my daughter and son's beds out.

We got to go move back with the family, but we still need to be able to open the garage.

And so we've been a service-based business.

I love new doors.

I love the curb uphill.

I love the smile of your home, but really we're there when you need us most.

We'll show up the same day.

We'll show up at midnight.

We'll be there on Christmas.

And obviously our people get more money to go run those calls.

Sure.

But, you know, they love it.

They're both decision makers are home.

They get to sit down.

We try to sit down at the kitchen table and say, look, we just want to figure out what's going to be good for you.

And we offer coffee on the way.

It's just the right thing to do.

And so many businesses, it's lucky if they answer their phone now.

So if you answer the phone, you're already doing something right.

For us, if I don't have a 90% booking rate, I'm angry.

I'm walking in the call center.

I'm working with the agents.

I've got stories of me walking into the call center and one day we lost a job.

And I call the technician up.

I go, can you get to this job in 30 minutes?

He goes, yeah, boss, whatever for you was in Oklahoma City.

And I call up the client.

Call her Miss Smith.

Miss Smith answers the phone and she goes, hey, this is Miss Smith.

How can I help you?

I said, Miss Smith, Tommy Mellow, 81 Garage for a Service.

I know you just had called us and we couldn't get out there tonight.

I want to let you know that I could get a guy there in less than 30 minutes.

She goes, oh, Tommy, I'm so sorry to tell you this, but I just called another company.

They're going to be out here in about an hour and a half.

And I go, would you mind telling me the name of the company?

And she goes, XYZ company.

I go, that's a great company.

They're very good at what they do.

I go, what if I could cancel the emergency if he'd be there in 30 minutes?

She goes, Tommy, I've already booked with this other company.

I really appreciate you offering that.

I go, no problem.

Well, you gave me their name.

Why don't I call them and cancel for you?

And we'll be there in 30 minutes.

See, that's, yeah.

All right.

Anyway, she hangs up, cancels, calls me back.

She's laughing.

She goes, you guys, come on out.

So you got to fight for, you got to, that's the difference, though.

You got to fight for your clients.

And you got to fight for your people even more.

That's the thing.

These are your internal clients.

Every person that I work with, and if you're not fighting for them, they have choices.

I mean, my people are sought after.

so are matts yeah and you got to treat them like gold you can't just say we're going to treat our clients great and then you know poop on your people trying not to swear here even though i've slipped one well you may mean you know poop on your people following shit show is it's it's a it's an interesting dichotomy um

here's another c-word for you competitive you strike me as a competitive like that that's not just business what that scenario you just described is personal.

I'm the most competitive guy you'll ever meet.

I mean, literally, I hate to lose more than I like to win.

And that's a fact.

And I am

in the golf tournament.

I just got back from Michigan, 24 guys, including my dad and two of my cousins and my brother-in-law and

undefeated.

Our volleyball tournament.

We go on this thing called a pinnacle trip with our guys.

We bring about 100 people out there.

Undefeated in the volleyball tournament.

We bet 10 grand.

And my dad taught me,

you don't get a participation trophy.

I'm not going to say good if you got in second place.

He wasn't like, I get a spanking if I lost.

But my dad used to beat me in billiards with one hand till the day he showed up and I smoked him.

And he goes, what in the hell?

And I go, I've been practicing.

So he taught me, like, I was a wrestler and I just hate losing.

I just, there's no, like, if I play Candyland with my niece and nephews when they were young, I'd whoop their butts.

And they go, why are you playing so hard?

And I'm like, because you're going to appreciate when you beat me and you're going to know you beat me.

And I was trying my best.

So yeah,

and that's when you walk into this business, you smell the competitiveness.

But I explain to people, just because they win doesn't mean you lose.

Elevates about everybody gets to win in this game.

We are, because he made a lot of money, doesn't mean you don't get to make money.

So it's not a zero-sum game.

It's not a zero-sum game.

And that's what's important is competitiveness is is a good thing, but it could go too far.

And it could mean I'm in a world of my own and I'm not going to share.

So I explained in the orientation of how competition is a good thing, but you got to ask for help and you got to teach the other people how to win.

Yeah.

You know, it's funny.

Chuck and I were talking about like a version of this earlier today,

the idea that you give up your secrets.

Like you sit on this podcast you're doing, which is called The Home Service Expert.

Right.

And so Tommy brings other people onto the podcast who are growing a business, attempting to follow in your footsteps, a lot of skilled tradespeople who are just kind of out there without a net, and some who have had great success, others who have brought in private equity.

It runs the whole gamut.

But earlier you said that, you know, there's this concern that you're going to give away the secrets, right?

You're going to

spill the secret sauce.

And we were just talking about a show that I did a couple of years ago called Six Degrees.

It's a great show, but distribution is really tough today.

And so, you know, the smart money says, well, what you got to do is you got to really protect the exclusivity of the asset and you have to shop it carefully and privately and then make a deal with somebody.

And that all used to be true and that all used to work.

But

we are in as different a time as when those guys were sitting on that girder in all these industries.

And today I'm going to go over after this and I'm going to talk to Mary and say, we should put six degrees on YouTube, right?

Now just give it away.

Just put it out there.

Yeah.

Because it's a giant world and you never know what happens when you just give it away.

Other people will see it.

Other ideas will emerge.

Other relationships will evolve.

Look at us.

The energy thing.

I had no plans on going there.

Chuck came along too.

Yeah, that was really good.

He has nothing to do, you know?

And then...

Oh, I had plenty to do, but I.

No, you were going to be there one way or the other.

She's like stepping in gum with you.

You're coming.

But that's kind of the thing.

You know, you don't, I guess if there's a point in all that, it's that when in doubt, put it out.

Put it out there, whatever your secret is, whatever the special sauce is.

And it's not going to be taken from you.

I mean, it might be, but like you say, I can teach you how to get a six-pack.

It's not a secret.

No, it's not that.

You know, it's easier in the United States to become a millionaire than to have a six-pack.

I mean, that's just the facts.

And you look at this and so many people are like, they stay in this world.

There's a guy named Ron Smith.

He wrote a book called HVAC Spells Wealth.

Started out in the 60s.

He passed away.

I was fortunate enough to get him on my podcast.

And he said, you know what I'd do?

He goes, I'd get together all the HVAC companies in southern Florida and they'd come to my shop.

And I'd open up the doors, tell them exactly what I'm doing.

And what manifested out of that.

was a best practices group that he was part of.

And that's why HVAC learned it.

HVAC was not the best industry.

It's just they got together a lot earlier and started discussing how to help each other.

And so, what I learned was, I'm just going to invite all the garage companies in, and they call it Woodstock.

I got a couple hundred garage companies in a room, and I had all these HVAC guys come up and talk about why they do what they do, service agreements, how they work with their vendors, why they drive new trucks, hence depreciation.

Financing, which we never call finance, we call it promotions because we pay a dealer fee.

And it was like lights started turning on.

When you watch these lights start turning on and these guys' faces and the smiles, is they thought they had to work and take all this risk to make $100,000 a year.

But one lawsuit, one accident, one thing goes wrong, one shift in the economy, they're out of business.

And it doesn't mean you got to become a billionaire.

Because listen, I was very fortunate.

I've had a lot of things go right.

And there's a lot of people along the way.

And look, for me, it's legacy.

Like, I want to see how far we could take this.

I met Gary Vanderchuck.

I don't know if you know who he is.

And I said, you know what my mom mom says to me a lot, Gary?

And he goes, what's that, Tommy?

I said, she asked me, how much is enough?

And he starts laughing.

He goes, but it gets easier and it gets more fun.

And you want to see how far you could take it, right?

I go, yeah.

I'm like, look, for me, the money's not been a thing for a long time.

I don't need to be there.

I don't have to go in.

Like, I've got options.

I could retire my family over and over again.

And it's not about the money.

My point is, we're doing something big.

If you're part of this company, you're part of a movement.

Like, we are doing cool stuff.

And how many lives could we change?

How many lives can we affect?

It's something that's a passionate thing, but it's also fun to watch people bring a kid into this world or lose weight and start hitting the gym.

Like my whole office, this is very,

I don't know what you would call it, but I walked into my COO's office.

I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I took off my shirt.

And he's like, what are you doing?

I go, what's your excuse?

And now he's ripped ripped up.

He is better.

He's more in shape than I am.

I see.

You're in Arizona, right?

Yeah.

I don't think you can do that in California.

No, no.

You start walking in the CFO office and start taking off your shirt.

Next thing you know, you're taking off your pants.

Next thing you know, yeah.

That's right.

Things spiral quickly.

Hey, I left my belt on.

That's for sure.

Yeah.

But it is connected, right?

I mean, if you're competitive, if you're curious, you're going to be as competitive and curious about your physicality, your physical health as you are your mental health, as you are your business acumen.

You're going to be the kind of person who will pick up the phone call, call the customer, call the competitor, talk him out of the right.

If those qualities are genuinely embedded in you, they're going to manifest

in every area, for better or worse.

Has this personality of yours, this drive,

has it impacted you negatively in any way?

I've really learned to

not be such a sort of loser and realize it as a lesson learned.

Yeah, there are some relationships that I think were toxic.

I don't have a high tolerance for people that don't want to try.

And so I just got to leave them alone.

And

my old COO used to say, there are hikers and there are campers.

We got to have both.

And I'm like, I don't like campers.

People that just stay still in life and they don't want more.

I'm like, and then I got to teach my entire staff.

We teach people to be lions and ask for more and go forward in life and be bold and teach.

They can't be lambs back to us.

They're like, they just want more.

They want to figure out how to move out of the truck.

They want to figure out, they ask for raises.

They ask, I go, good,

good.

That's what we've asked them to do.

I'm like, you can't teach them to go for no at everything they do in life and then to not do it to us.

In defense of campers, there are some in that cohort who got to the campsite by hiking, right?

They went out for a hike and they decided, you know what,

I've been walking a long time.

I'm going to pitch a tent here for a while.

And that's fair.

And people go through different stages of life.

And I've been there for guys that have been through a lot.

Man, when you go through a divorce or somebody passes away, look,

I never turn my back on that.

You know, and I don't expect you, like, it's going to take some time.

Time's the only thing that's going to heal that.

And I'm going to be there for you.

And I've been through that now more times than I could count.

One of my great friends, one of the top guys in

Grand Rapids, just lost his mother.

And I interviewed him yesterday.

And he said, today's a better day.

And I know mom's looking down.

I just got the keys to my house.

I've got an amazing wife.

I'm at my aunt's house.

And

I said, well, I'll tell you this, Ben.

Your mom is super proud of you.

You just got a house.

You're living your best life.

You're such a great guy.

You're genuine.

You care.

And

you're getting so far in life.

It just, all I want you to do is continue to try.

Just better your best every day.

And if you continue to walk these lines,

the world has so much more to offer you.

I used to say that all the time about dirty jobs.

You know, it was the first show I did where I really wasn't a host.

I was an apprentice.

And when people ask me about the job, I'd say, I have one job.

It's to try.

Pay to try.

That's the thing.

It was the first time I wasn't really evaluated on competency.

Another C-word worth riffing on.

You said something about the Cheesecake Factory an hour ago.

Yeah.

It reminded me of something, and it's got to do with choices.

Do you think people are paralyzed today by the number of options they have?

And of course, I'm referring broadly, but also to the Cheesecake Factory's menu.

which to this day haunts my dreams.

You go in, you want a salad, and somebody hands you a book.

Yeah.

It's a book.

It's a lot of options.

It's just page after page after page and pictures.

And pretty soon you just sit there and say, I don't know.

And you just wind up ordering something you didn't really want the first place.

Well, every time I go to a restaurant, because I was a server and a busboy for so long at a bartender, I'll tell you a couple of things.

Number one is I love pictures because I can look at something and be like, man, that's the way my brain works is that looks awesome.

Like I'll go, so pictures help a menu.

And number two, I asked the server, what's your favorite things?

Don't lie to me.

I know I was a server for a long time.

I'm going to tip you excellent if you give me decent service.

I don't expect you to typically tip more than most.

And so it doesn't really matter.

You don't have to sell me on the steak because it'll raise the ticket.

I used to be the best dessert seller on the planet.

I used to say, listen, this dessert is the best dessert.

It takes about 20 minutes.

So when I put in your entree order, we'll put in the dessert order.

I knew nobody was going to be hungry.

So I always win the contest for the most dessert sold.

You know what else works too, at least in my experience?

You got to tell them what sucks.

You got to tell them what to avoid.

Yes.

If you're also going to tell them what you love, because there's just no better way.

Well, it builds a quick, that's an instant credibility.

I literally had a guy look at me.

I won't name the restaurant, but I ordered what I ordered and he gives me this.

He just goes.

Just a real slow head shake.

Just don't do it, dude.

Yeah.

Don't do it.

I'm like, all right.

What do you think?

He's like, get the trout.

It's fresh.

I said, all right, that's great.

But anyway, go ahead.

No, I love that advice.

One of the coolest things in life is there's a book by Daniel Pink called To Sell as Human.

I'll tell you the biggest stigma about our industry is when you hire a salesman.

If you ever meet a wife or a husband, you're in sales.

You know, you're probably not farting out loud.

You're probably not burping.

You're probably opening their door.

When you get your son or daughter to make their bed, you're in sales.

There's this bad stigma from a long time ago that they used car salesmen and money was a bad thing, too.

Anybody that's gone through the Great Depression has been like, oh, Thanksgiving comes and look, we're eating like the rich folk.

And so having money was a bad thing.

Sales is a bad thing.

And I go, listen, we go to this church called Impact Church.

Travis Hearn is the pastor.

And I go, how many of you guys have been to church?

And I say,

do you think your pastor is a good guy or a bad guy?

And great guy, yeah.

And I'm like, when he gets you to, typically what they need to do to keep the church going is to get money.

And so typically they're going to talk about paying your 10%.

And that's what they're success.

They're in sales too.

And this idea of sales is a bad thing.

Yes, there's, if you were to close your eyes right now and I told you, think about it, sales, and write it down, most people would write it to this bad story about how they've been burning sales.

And so my job is to turn it around and say, look, we are giving opportunities.

We're solving problems.

We're letting them decide.

We give options and they pick what they want.

The first thing I start out my orientation with is how many people here sell things to people they don't need?

And everybody's like, no, no, no, we don't do that.

I go, that's all I sell to people.

I go, I got a brand new cell phone.

The old one was fine.

Who needs a garage door that you can open up from a cell phone?

I'm like, who needs a steelback two-inch thick polyurethane door?

If they need it, they'll order it.

An order is different than a sale.

I just talk to people and say, listen, I love this.

This is what I put in my mom's house.

This is what my dad has.

I believe in this.

Would you like this?

And they buy things they want.

Do you know how many things we have in life that we didn't need, but we want?

You need oxygen, you need water, you need clothing, you know, you need a place to sleep.

And I'm like, guys, you're not a salesperson.

You're giving options of what's people buy stuff all the time that makes their life easier.

And there's this thing that I learned about yesterday from this gentleman I was talking about called anyway dollars.

Like, you're going to spend the money anyway.

Like, Amazon Prime and Walmart will deliver into your garage.

And there's a lot of people that steal that are porch thieves.

So why not have them deliver all your groceries into your house?

You're going to order the groceries anyway.

And so he started to teach me like your energy bill goes down and he does water purification.

And when you do water purity, like the soap goes a longer way, the conditioner, the dishwasher lasts longer, the washing machine, like the hot water heater will last longer.

You give a better warranty, and he calls it anyway dollars.

And I'm like, that's genius.

You're saving people a fortune that it pays for itself.

And so I'm going to, me and Astra are going to work on everything for a garager that are anyway dollars.

You're going to use the money anyway, not put it towards an investment into your home.

Right.

I just love this stuff.

I can talk to you all day.

Well, look, we got to land the plane, but but the last thought is philanthropy.

I know you give a damn about a number of things.

And maybe

I hate to ask you for advice because you know what?

You never really know who's listening, and different people need to hear different things at different times.

But you did carve out a chunk for yourself and for your company.

And when I think of the 2,500 people that we've helped through Microworks, you know, they're out there in the wind.

I don't know how all of them are doing.

I know many of them are doing real well.

So in the world of home services and skilled trades, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but what would you say to people who are considering learning a skill

or maybe even hanging out a shingle?

Is there some advice that you feel like is evergreen?

Well, I know about a decade ago, I was told go to school, get your degree,

become a developer, get into coding.

And this fancy thing came out that I've been studying the heck out of is artificial intelligence.

And next year, Elon Musk with Tesla is coming out with robotics.

You'll be able to walk the dog.

It'll do light landscaping.

It'll do light cooking.

It can do some pretty cool stuff, but it's learning in the process, and it gets smarter and updated all the time.

I don't believe skilled trades will be replaced anytime soon.

So you've got a long horizon.

It's in need.

The average plumber is now in their 50s.

I'm telling you right now that there's not enough people going into the trades.

And it's not a sexy job, but it's fun.

And you get to work with people and you get to grow into the business.

Get the right company, but you can make six figures.

You can get the benefits.

You can be part of a brotherhood and sisterhood.

And you get to work with your hands.

Like I was going to be a dentist working in people's mouths.

Like, I can't imagine that life.

I would say, listen, I love what I do.

And if you ever want to come visit our shop, it's tommymellownow.com forward slash shop.

I don't charge a penny.

We'll take you through, show you what it's all about.

And I don't want to make money doing this stuff.

I want to pay it forward with the so many people that paid it forward to me.

And I really think this industry is, it's the best thing.

And I know, by the way, the number one suicide rate is dentists.

Doctors, not much better.

Lawyers, you know,

I'm not even going to go down that road, but that all these people that make money, they're going to be replaced.

Like right now, even the surgeries they're figuring out, like the best surgeon puts on the gloves, the AI is learning.

They're taking the blood, the blood after.

Those things will be able to do more.

Right now, they could put stitches into one corn kernel.

Yeah.

Like, trust me, it's coming.

And it's the top of the first inning.

Just wait for the next five years.

And I'm telling you, they're not going to do garage doors or HVAC or wheat crawling in addicts or going under.

Like, there will be advancements.

You think they'll be pulling teeth?

I think, yes, I think pretty soon there will be something that does the dental work.

Well, congratulations on what you've built and thanks for building it the way you've built it.

I think, you know,

your podcast is, and by the way, it's not just like a little vanity thing either.

You've actually got a chunk of listeners out there.

Like, people are listening to this thing regularly.

Yeah, I think there's a couple hundred thousand downloads a month.

And

I've never missed an episode, never missed one.

And you did one a week?

One a week.

And the real thing was, is I needed help.

I needed something to allow people to come.

I couldn't afford all the consulting I got.

I would get them for an hour to two hours.

I get to ask them any questions I want.

So I remember one day I was having this huge problem in HR and I, you know, human resources.

And it's actually a good thing if you really look at what it is.

We always think about HR as this bad, bad thing.

But I found the number one person on the planet for HR, invited them them on, and I asked them a million questions.

And one out of 40 people I have on the podcast, I heard a consult me.

That's always how it worked out, one out of 40.

And so I've always invested into myself.

And I think the people listening, if you get an opportunity, Michael Jordan had three coaches and he had, you know, Phil.

Like

every single person that's listening, if you're not investing into yourself, you're losing.

I work with Dan Martel.

He's excellent.

He got me to look through things through a different lens of buying back your time because there's 168 hours in a week.

You spend 50 working, 50 sleeping.

Maybe you spend 10 working out if you're in great shape.

You still got 60 hours left.

You go watch your favorite Netflix show, spend time with your wife, going on dates, take time with your kids, and still have plenty of time left.

That's another thing that he taught me is own your calendar.

Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, all these people, you know what the equalizer is?

Time.

We've got the same amount of time.

So you might say, man, they keep getting lucky.

They got this.

No, there's one thing they can't, they'd give it all back to take back 40 years.

So I love the fact I feel old sometimes.

I feel young sometimes.

I'm 42, but I feel like I'm just getting started.

Like, tomorrow's going to be a great day.

You're walking around with a notebook.

Is that thing always with you?

I always have notes, yeah.

You actually, like, I thought you were making notes about stuff you wanted to talk about, but you actually wrote down stuff that I just said.

Yeah, avoid.

I always take a lot of notes, and

I think that's a great,

that's one of the things if anybody's out there that if you want to impress people, number one, I can't remember everything.

Number two is take notes.

Take notes, especially if you're on grandpa or your elder or somebody that's been where you want to go, is write things down.

When I brought this in front of Al Levy in 2017, he goes, you know, Tommy, I've sat down with 50 people your age.

Not one of them brought a notebook and took any notes.

Not one of them.

Well, since you invoked mothers, you know what my mom did did for the last two years of her dad's life?

She walked across the lawn and sat next to him.

He was blind by then.

He was 90 years old.

And just asked him questions and wrote down all the answers on a legal pad.

My mom writes every day.

And I watched her doing that, you know, and just thought,

I'm not sure I understand what's happening, but you're so right.

The curiosity, like at getting my pop to talk about his youth and then writing it down in front of him.

Couldn't see her doing it, but he knew he knew what she was doing.

It's a supreme and sublime compliment to be that interested.

That's why taking notes is interesting.

It's a hallmark of curiosity.

Now, what are you writing?

What do you write?

Well, I like what you said, be interested.

And when you're interested, you take notes.

Well, the most interesting people are always interested.

Yeah.

You can jot that down too if you want.

That's a free one.

The most interesting people are the most interested.

Genuinely being interested.

I tell the folks I work with, I say,

if you don't really are interested, like if someone's got a Harley and you hate motorcycles, don't talk about Harleys.

But if you love Harley's and you've been to Sturge's, ask them questions about it and you watch people light up.

I say this.

My number one rule is knock the door.

Don't ring the doorbell.

Strangers ring the doorbell.

And when the dog comes, the dog is like there's six sets that's going to know.

So you got to play with the dog.

If they got a cat, you're allowed to run.

I'll leave you with this, folks.

Tommy Mello, once upon a time, bought a Boflex and resold it.

And then he did it again with the total gym.

That's right.

And the idea that you understood arbitrage at that age and now today are building whatever this thing is.

I don't know what's beyond A or before one.

Some Greek letter maybe in a zero, but whatever you're doing, man, you are on some kind of ride, and you must be this tall to get on it.

And you are.

So, congrats.

Thank you for having me on.

I really appreciate it.

I owe you one.

If I can ever return the favor, let me know.

If you're a business, you're a busy guy.

You know, I want to work with you in the future.

I'll tell everybody out there.

You know, Mike is probably one of the busiest guys I've met, but he took time to respond to my text message.

And I think you did it.

You know what you did, dude?

You sent me a video.

I ignored two text messages, not on purpose, but I was just jammed and I was walking out of like a

restoration hardware or a pottery barn or something.

And you literally sent me a selfie saying, hey, I'm so respectful of your time, but I think we need to talk about a bunch of stuff.

And there it is.

Now I understand why you would get on the phone and call a customer and then ultimately go around her to call the competition.

You are something else, dude.

Well, I'm glad I'm here and I'm honored.

Welcome back anytime.

Tommy Mellow, everybody.

All right, thank you.

If you like what you heard, and even if you don't, won't you please,

pretty, please, pretty, please subscribe.

Well, I hate to beg and I hate to plead, but please, pretty, freaking please,

please sub

please

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