442: Salena Zito—America's Journalist

Well, hello, friends.

It's Mike Rowe.

It's the way I heard it.

And

we don't do the episode thing anymore, do we?

Well, you can in this case, because I know it's going to be episode 442.

All right, so it's episode 442.

Some old habits are coming back because I'm not in person today.

We're doing this long distance because our guest is a very big deal.

Big deal.

Big, busy deal.

Some might say huge.

Now, careful.

You may be creating an expectation.

Not that big.

Not that big.

But pretty big.

Selena Zito is back with us for, I don't know, maybe the fourth time, third, fourth, fifth time.

Fourth, I think it's fourth, yeah.

Fourth.

You will hear me say this to her momentarily, face-to-virtual face, but I'm just so proud of my friend for the career she's led and for what's happened to her and around her in this last year.

Her new book is called Butler because she was four feet from President Trump when he was very nearly assassinated.

And she's written a book in part about that day, but about some other things too that are relevant and adjacent and I think really interesting.

Have you had a chance to read it yet?

No, I've pre-ordered it.

It comes out today, but I got the audible version because I want to hear it to me.

It's a great read.

And I honestly say that regardless of what you think about the 45th and 47th president, it's not about that.

But full disclosure, these two have formed a bond.

There's an article in the Times very recently.

I mean, Trump hates the media.

He's crystal clear about it, with one exception, Selena Zito.

Selena Zito, yes.

He calls her my Selena.

And he called her no less than seven times 24 hours after the assassination attempt because she saw it all and he saw it all and they saw each other and she was there to interview him after the event an occasion that was obviously postponed but has since been made good on many times so here we have a a guest on my little podcast who's been coming on for the last couple of years who now has a direct line to the white house who has now written a book about this event, which I think is only going to grow in relevance as time goes on.

It's going to be a historical day, and I think it's fair to say that who knows what the outcome of the election would have been but for this day.

We don't know.

But we do spend some time talking about these moments in history.

Some feel consequential, some not, but they all have brought us to wherever it is we are today.

We're calling this episode America's Journalist, not because there aren't many fine journalists in this country, but I don't know of any who love the country more or the people in it than Selena Zito.

She shows up, Chuck.

The woman keeps showing up.

Yeah.

Well, she showed up here.

Exactly.

And I'm grateful.

Otherwise, what a short episode this would be.

You know her, you love her.

In moments, you're going to know her even better and love her even more right after this.

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And you know we're rolling.

Now we're now rolling.

Hi, Selena.

Hi, Mr.

Rowe.

How are you today?

It's Mr.

Mike Rowe.

I think I've earned it.

Is it Micro or Mr.

Michael Rowe?

It depends.

A, are you my mother?

And B, are you angry?

Well, I feel like middle name is anger.

What's your middle name?

My middle name's Gregory.

Michael Gregory?

Does he feel like you're in trouble now?

I did, yeah.

You actually frightened me.

I scared you.

Well, you know, you've got a lot of experience.

I'm sure you've put the fear of God into your...

How many grandkids now?

Are we talking about?

Four grandchildren.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They've gotten gotten the middle name treatment.

Mostly to get them out of danger.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness, Eleonora and get out of the street.

Yeah.

Right.

Rocco Michael, don't touch the stove.

What are you thinking?

Yeah.

It's like that.

Or Donald John, talk.

I bet.

Yeah.

Right?

Hang on one second, Mike.

Before you go any further, I'm hearing you, but you sound a little muffled.

Does he sound muffled to you, Selena?

No, he's coming in crystal clear?

He's coming in crystal clear.

You need to get a haircut right here.

Me?

No, him.

Got it scheduled for Monday, sadly.

I'm thinking it's the haircut that you can't hear.

What kind of world are we in, man, where men, full-grown men, have to schedule haircuts?

I know.

Didn't you just like walk into the barber shop and like, give me a trib?

I mean, I did.

I get it.

If I'm looking at your mop, you need a team of people to come in.

They've got to put down a drop cloth there's probably spotters and all kinds of all kinds of additives i used to go to a guy named frank in baltimore who flew a bomber in the korean war and just had a stack of like vintage playboys

you know and like all that stuff like i can like vitalis and all these old ads and these dudes would just sit around and tell stories and i would yeah you know like there's a lot of barbershops like that still around the country yeah

i almost always stop in a barbershop or a beauty salon when I'm out reporting.

Best stories.

Best little, they're like the country clubs for

the small towns.

That's awesome.

What else?

Like, what other places have you found in your vast resume of reportage where you can actually hear the truth?

Well,

as you know, a big diner person.

I love diners mainly because I like dippy eggs, rye toast, dry with butter on the side.

That's my jam.

I have never been in a diner where I haven't had a really good conversation with someone.

Even if it's, you know, it doesn't have to be about politics, just about life.

Where have you been?

What have you done?

What are your grandkids doing?

Those kinds of things.

Church basements, always good, especially with the Lutherans.

Yeah.

Their casserole dish dinners are beyond the pale.

Now, we were Presbyterian, so we were dealing with a whole list of issues, obviously.

But we had in the church basement a small stage, maybe two feet off the floor with a curtain.

And this is the place where we would have

Lenten dinners, of course.

And then every so often, some act would come in.

And I just, I think the first time I remember seeing people on stage was on that tiny little stage after a Lenten dinner.

And the curtain opened, and there was some sort of of trio singing some sort of song I had never heard.

Yeah.

Seared now and what's left of my memory.

Crazy, isn't it?

How those little slices of Americana and connection stick with you?

Yeah, they're really special.

They still go on.

My little grandchildren just had a recital in a basement of a Lutheran church.

And there was a little stage.

They're not learning.

We're Catholic.

We're really Catholic.

But, you know, that's where their recital was.

Like, we're extra-Catholic.

You're stigmata Catholic.

We do, like, guilt like a profession, right?

Like, we have PhDs in guilt and other stuff, too.

But mostly guilt.

You know, there was the little reception afterwards, after they run the little stage with their

piano.

And then we had like covered dish, you know, that jell-o salad with like the pretzels and the cream cheese.

Yes, yes.

The stuff that used to appear in like those Betty Crocker books.

Like,

I had a show in mind.

I actually pitched it once.

I think you would have enjoyed it, but the idea was I'd go around the country and meet the like the great-great-granddaughters or great-granddaughters of women who had these like a meatloaf casserole or something deeply gelatinous and suspicious, right?

And we would cook that recipe together and I would join them for dinner.

That would be amazing.

So I collect old cookbooks.

You know how they would be in the the communities where, you know, they fundraised off of the cookbooks and each is to your point, like a woman was famous for her meatloaf gelatin casserole that had peas like stuffed in the middle like a bunt cake.

I collect those and they are joyful, just not even for the recipes because they're a little bit scary, but

the stories are awesome.

Like you can just imagine the person, right?

Yeah.

Well, you know, I nearly sold it in the room and might very well have if I hadn't insisted on calling it Eat Me.

But that was the deal killer.

So I never,

you know, I couldn't get it out of development, but I came close to Lena.

I'm really sorry that didn't happen because it would have been joyful and awesome.

I'm spending some time talking to you about the utter minutia.

of things because I know we're going to get to some very big things very quickly.

Let me first just say I'm so proud of you to watch what has happened.

I hope that doesn't sound at all patronizing, you know, but I've just, and I know I speak for Chuck, too, when I say we're just so delighted to have met you when we did.

So ram.

I was literally sitting here waiting to do a live hit on Fox News.

Tucker.

Yeah, yeah.

And you were on right before me.

In South Dakota covering the oil field workers, the pipeline workers.

Yes.

I had no idea who you were, but I said when I came up, I'm like, that woman has got her big hairy head screwed on for great.

I really,

I just love the way you were reporting, and I've since dug into a lot of what you wrote in the past.

And obviously, the book that's coming out now, I guess it'll be out now by the time this drops, right?

Yeah.

This is going to go live the day it drops.

So

happy book day.

Oh, this is a big day.

It's a big book.

It's called Butler.

Happy Book Day.

And look, I'm sorry I'm not with you in person.

We talked a couple of months ago

about coming to Butler and sitting down and recording

a conversation face to face.

But I swear to God, woman, you're busy.

I'm busy.

And thanks to you, not to get bogged down with too much inside baseball, but Selena has connected us, my foundation, to some of her many contacts in the world.

And I don't know what's going on, huh?

But it's like a memo went out

to every CEO, to every governor.

I mean, I'm not doing anything different than I've done in 17 years, but our little foundation is exploding.

And the people you've connected me to, they have means, they have resources, they want to help.

I think,

thanks to you, I'll just say it now.

I'm not, I'm not.

cry

okay well i'm gonna make you cry right now i'm 99

sure that this year we're going to award five million dollars in work ethic scholarships and i've never come close to that and you are the proximate cause of it so

you do everything i just i'm really good at connecting people when seeing what something matches up and we are about to have an explosion of jobs needed in the trade industry.

AI is a game changer and it's a game changer in places like all across the West, Oklahoma, Texas, but also Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, because of the energy resources.

We are going to need thousands, tens of thousands of jobs.

And if you hadn't sparked that idea that we need to start educating our children in a meaningful way that gives them skill to,

you know, I mean, these kids are artisans.

They're not welders.

They're artisans, right?

They're not carpenters.

They're artisans.

They make things.

And they're such an important fabric of the engine of this country.

And that you guys recognize that and

made a difference.

It's an obligation to continue to pay that forward with any way you can.

Well, it's a privilege and a unique thrill to see the headlines catch up to your own smack years later.

You know, I mean, I haven't been wrong about the big ideas around this, but I haven't been proven right, and I'm certainly not ready to take a victory lap.

But things are trending in that direction.

Well, 20,000 jobs just

announced in Pennsylvania in the last month and $20 billion in investment.

That's just an AI and the infrastructure to build the data processing centers, but also for the natural gas-fired power plants.

That's not even counting what's happening with this U.S.

steel Nippon deal, where that's another thousands and thousands of jobs.

Explain to people what's happened.

You're really talking about U.S.

steel a couple years ago.

It was just,

and I think I speak for a lot of people who don't even really

understand

the industry, but just the thought of losing U.S.

Steel was such a gut punch.

I was so surprised, like without even really understanding a lot of the relevant facts that led up to that deal, it just felt so horrible to see the U.S.

lose U.S.

Steel.

You know, U.S.

Steel is the country's and the world's first billion-dollar company.

It was the first mega company in the world, right?

And it was a symbol of grit and making things and ushering in the Industrial Revolution.

Yes.

And it is the reason we have, you look at the infrastructure, whether it's a small town or a large city, if you look at the infrastructure, it's more than likely that U.S.

steel was at the heart of it.

And during the 70s, and because I'm elderly, I have lived through the experience of watching everything gutted beginning in September of 1977 in Youngstown, where tens of thousands of men and women lost their jobs in the mill and

changed every changed lives, changed families.

The communities were just eviscerated.

You know, churches closed, schools closed, tax base gone.

There are 4,732 steeler bars across the country and including in Rome.

Why?

Because so many people were fractured and had to move away, but they longed for that cultural touchstone, that chunk of home that they didn't have anymore.

People opened Steeler bars across the world.

And so that just shows you that connective tissue that was torn apart.

To see U.S.

steel being

not only saved, right, the jobs that are there are saved, but also the reinvestment in these big hulking mills.

And there's some great photos of me, if you go on Instagram, of me working in the mills, like the highlight of my career.

They need to be upgraded, but those cost millions of dollars to upgrade.

So, there'll be an infusion of cash not only in those mills, but there, I was just talking to the plant manager today at US Deal.

Yeah, we're hired a whole bunch of people.

I just interviewed a whole stack of people today.

That brings the rust belt back, right?

That keeps those communities intact and expands them.

So people can not only stay living by their parents or their grandparents, but generations going forward will also be able to have that ability.

You walk into U.S.

Steel today with a high school education and the ability to

willing to learn a trade, you're walking in making $120,000 a year.

And that's just U.S.

Steel.

That's not even the AI and the data processing plants.

Now that, these things are adjacent.

Chuck was with me, actually.

I was at an energy conference a couple of months ago down in Newport.

Rick Perry was there.

He texted me a picture at the same time you guys texted me a picture.

I'm like, what's you?

What's going on, guys?

Well, this is when I started to think that something had really tipped for two things.

He said two things that I'll never forget.

The first was these data centers, all right, we got to start thinking about calling them something else because they've already got a bad rap in terms of just those words, right?

Right, right.

People are like, oh, God, a data center's coming and now my whole town's going to go to hell or whatever.

Right.

It's like, no, no, no, no.

AI is electricity.

Electricity will drive the data centers.

And the guy that was there, Raj, who works at Aligned, he's built 50 of these things.

Oh, I know him.

Yeah.

All north of a billion dollars, Selena.

He's got contracts for twice that number,

and they can't build them for the lack of skilled labor.

Right.

So when Rick Perry starts talking about

this whole thing, he likens it to the Manhattan Project,

a modern-day Manhattan project.

And he is ringing the alarm.

And then he said the craziest thing, and this sounds like the worst humble brag and so vainglorious, but I'll tell you anyway, because I can tell you anything.

It's just you and it's just the three of us here.

We're fine.

We're fine.

He looks out from the stage across the audience and like there's the CEO of EQT and some of the biggest energy girls.

Toby Rice.

Toby Rice, who you also introduced me to.

Thank you very much.

Yeah.

And he says, Palmer Lucky.

Palmer Lucky.

All the cats are there.

And Rick looks over at me, and this is kind of in the morning.

I'm not going to talk till later in the day, and I'm just sitting there eating my eggs, waking up, sipping coffee.

And he points it right at me, and he goes, that guy sitting right there is the most important guy in the room.

And let me tell you why.

I don't blush much, but I sat there and I was like looking at my shoes going, where in the world is he going?

You know, so.

He's not wrong.

We're having this big energy conference coming up in Pennsylvania in July 15th.

AI energy, first one ever.

Pennsylvania Pittsburgh is like the center of AI because of CMU, which by the way, made the first AI computer in 1953.

So we are in the center of all this intellect and intelligence and engineers, but also this workforce that's ready to go.

So it's just a really, really exciting time.

And I just think back to a year ago, and there wasn't this hope and purpose that we have right now.

It occurs to me that that Selena Zito, like many other guests on this podcast, really is a true American giant.

I think she's one of the most important journalists working today, not because of her opinions on the current president, but because she spent her entire career writing about everyday Americans who make the things we all depend on.

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Well, again, this is for me, we have, as of the end of this last enrollment period, 10 times the number of applicants than we did a year ago today.

10 times.

So

like on the one hand, I look at that and I'm thinking, this is extraordinary and it's good news.

On the other hand, we get calls every week, whether it's from the submarine base or from the automotive agency.

I mean, 80,000 employees there, 20,000 new ones in Pennsylvania.

The submarines need 140,000.

Energy is what, somewhere between 300 and 500,000.

So, like,

how are your, I mean, because you're, I mean, I think you've got a direct line.

to the White House at this point.

I know you're talking with people who are making key decisions every single day.

Do you think that the memo is truly gone out?

Are these guys really ready to ring the alarm bell and get behind some kind of national effort to reinvigorate the trades?

Absolutely.

President is 100% behind this.

This is a big agenda item for him, something that he wants to be very supportive of, but not just supportive of.

But to your point, sound the alarm bell.

Tell young people that here is a pathway for you that is a pathway to prosperity and success but also is patriotic because you are making the country go you are part of something bigger than self you're gonna hear in his speech on July 15th that moment happen and it's gonna be a really big moment and I think it's gonna be really really important wow well I'm glad because I'll tell you there's still a ton of work to do.

I just got off a plane.

I was in Aspen for this thing.

I'm sure you've heard of the Aspen Ideas Festival.

Yeah.

Well, look, as a rule,

I'm leery of events that are festivals or gatherings or symposiums.

And I learned a lot at this, and I'm really glad I went.

The opening conversation is one that I want to just bounce off you real quick.

You've got Fareed Zakaria

talking

to Walter Isaacson.

And so,

for those who don't know, you know, Farid's been at CNN for close to 30 years, I think.

And

Walter used to run CNN.

He also used to run Time.

And he's written Benjamin Franklin and so many great books.

Yes.

Well, these two have a conversation in front of 500 or 600 enlightened folks.

And

Fareed actually says, with a straight face, our economy is broken into two different halves.

The wealthy half deals with assets that are ephemeral, bits and bytes and ideas, right, and thoughts.

And the other half work with their hands and they're doomed.

He says they can't make a living working like that.

So we have to, and this opens up the whole, I'm literally biting through my lip, Selena.

I want to just stand up and scream.

That's not true.

It's insane.

But he's smart.

I don't think he's wise, and I don't think he's correct on this point.

But looking around the room, the vast majority of those people were nodding in agreement.

We are still beset and burdened with some basic misconceptions.

And again, I just want to thank you for writing about this as much as you do.

Because,

look, it's the reason I don't want to take a victory lap is because it's hard to know what I'm preaching to the choir.

But I was not among the congregants yesterday.

I was among a lot of people who saw the world differently.

And ironically, they're trapped in the past.

They're trapped in these their own stereotypes.

Yes.

So, how in the world do we cut through?

at that level?

You know, the problem at that level, the solution is very simple unfortunately having them exercise that solution is the challenge right

you know if i had a wish list of things i wanted to accomplish i would take fareed across pennsylvania for for a couple days not in a limo

not on a plane um not on a greyhound either but like in the car and see and look at the places that are pops of of prosperity like Luzerne County and Bucks County, where $10 billion was just announced in AI, right?

These are huge.

These are absolutely huge.

And these are six-figure jobs.

And six-figures goes a lot away in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania, as opposed to if you lived in Connecticut or any of the surrounding counties of Washington, D.C.

But they don't know anybody like that.

They don't communicate with someone like that.

Our cultural curators, people like Farid, people that run the, that are sort of in the boardrooms or shared sharetakers, not sharetaker, shareholders in large companies, all operate out of these super zip codes.

And so they see this world very, very differently.

And their world exists, but so does my world.

As I look down my street, I would say half the people work with their hands, the other half of the people are are engineers or work in energy.

And they all make good livings.

They all have nice, tidy homes, nothing extravagant, but they're living a good life.

They go on vacation every year.

And so the idea that that is dying is sort of part of what was the problem with the last administration.

And they looked at through it in that very, very narrow view.

And they tried to push the country in that direction.

But the country pulled back because they said, no, we have these lives that are based on these, on working with our hands, and we're doing okay.

I don't know why you don't see that.

Meaning

them, not you.

No, well, I mean,

I think you do know why they don't see it.

They're not looking at it.

But I think that.

They're not there.

They don't come to places like where I live.

Correct.

Because if he's a curator, You're a connector.

Connectors talk about their great-grandmother's recipes.

They put the peas in the meatloaf gelatinous casserole.

In a bunt can.

In a bunt can, right?

They talk about the little stage and they talk about Lenten dinners and they talk about diners and they talk about, you know, two ears and one mouth and listening to people.

What do they call

the guy yesterday in the Times article?

It's just unbelievable.

You've got to read the article in the Times about Selena, the Trump whisperer.

The woman.

That was really,

really embarrassing.

Yeah, but come on.

Maybe you liked it a little.

I don't know.

It was up for six hours before I would even look at it.

I made everyone in my family read it

before I read it.

Yeah, because I'm like, I'm, oh, I'm so uncomfortable with the tension.

You know, when I went into journalism, nobody knew who the journalist was, right?

You were behind the scenes working your butt off, you know, asking questions at a crime scene, whatever it may be, a political rally.

And now all of a sudden, you're sort of thrust out there.

I still have not, even in my elderly years, gotten used to that.

Yeah, but you better, because not only have you written this book, they're going to make a movie about you.

They're making a movie about you, in part

because

you are still taking the back roads.

You are still interviewing people in diners and barbershops.

You are still

out there in a way that I think makes a lot of people both nostalgic and comfortable at the same time.

And for whatever reason, you have certainly captured the affection of the President of the United States.

And so I guess maybe the question is, if you're embarrassed by

a love letter in the New York Times simply because it's all about you, what the hell is going to happen to you when you see yourself up on the big screen brought to life by, I don't know, who's going to play you?

Do you know?

I mean, I feel like it should be Marissa Tamei, but because of the hair, right?

And being a little cheeky,

but, and we're about the same age, but I suspect, you know, people are going to misread that Butler is just about President Trump.

It mostly is.

It's mostly about that day.

But it's also a lot about what was happening on the ground in the country.

But it's also about journalism.

It's about preserving what's sacred and important about journalism and how we've lost our way in so many ways.

It's also about history.

I love the way you start this book.

And just, I imagine the overwhelming majority of people, both listening to this and just walking around the country, have no idea of the historical significance of the very acres on which you guys were standing a year ago this month.

Riff, for a moment, if you'd be so kind on all that.

So in 1754,

George Washington, who was a member of the colonial army, right, was part of Britain.

He was on a survey, not on a survey, I'm sorry, he was on a mission to go to Fort LaBeouf, which is basically Erie, Pennsylvania today.

At that time, there were the colonies and then there was New France, which went all the way from Louisiana all the way up into Canada.

And the French were taking over the part of the colonies where places like Pittsburgh were.

And

King George, with a letter, sent little George, George Washington, up there to tell him to go away.

And George boldly does that.

And his travel up there was insane.

it was i mean even the terrain today is crazy you know this is appalachia right deep gullies hollows mountains and and he goes up there in december and he tells the um the commander the french commander you know y'all gotta leave and um that i'm shortening it but he's also really smart there's this sort of back and forth with the command the french commander you know this little game that they played um where he, you know, he led Washington on like he's paying attention.

But Washington's a really smart young guy.

He has his diary there.

He notes that they're stocking up on canoes and guns, and, you know, something is happening, right?

They're building an arsenal.

And so he sends Washington on his way and says, yeah, no, we're not doing that.

And Washington leaves, and he leaves with Christopher Guest, who is his,

or just, not guest, that's the guy who, you know,

waiting for Government.

Fine actor, Spinal Tap, great actor, Spinal Tap, exactly.

But

they get to Butler, and all of a sudden,

there are these two French Indians, because the Indians were aligned with either the French or the English.

These two French Indians are like, hey, George, we'll carry your bags for you.

I'm doing this like drunk, like drunk history, right?

And I'm not drinking except for espresso.

But they're like, hey, George.

And

so Washington, who's exhausted, it's been snowing, it's freezing, he's pissed off.

And he's like, yeah, here, take my bags.

Well, one of the scouts takes his bags, goes 15 steps, turns around and shoots point blank at him.

Nearly misses him in the way that President Trump was.

was nearly missed.

And I think it's significant to point that out.

First of all, to president Shot and Butler.

But think about how different the country would be if George Washington had died there at 24.

There's

who else, I mean, I am a student of history, and I can't imagine who of all the men that served under Washington would have the comportment and the tactical understanding, but also that political finesse that Washington had to have been able to accomplish what he did in the American Revolution.

That wouldn't have happened.

How different would we be?

How completely different would we be?

And you have to think about the same thing with President Trump.

There would be no U.S.

steel deal.

Those jobs wouldn't have been saved.

There would have been no AI energy hubs because they were against it.

You know, there wouldn't have been him giving people

in East Liverpool the money to have

health tracked for the next 20 years.

That wouldn't have happened.

There wouldn't have been what happened in a 12-day war that maybe essentially changed how things happened in the Middle East.

There would have been no end in Iran's nuclear proliferation.

And so it really makes you think how significant what happened in Butler on that day in 2024.

Had he just not turned his head?

Had he not put that chart down, like Ross Perot, like, what was that?

I know.

You know, it's mind-blowing to consider.

Well, the whole notion of sliding doors has always interested me.

And life is a game of inches, millimeters, last-minute decisions just seemingly completely inconsequential.

And yet, I don't know that there is an inconsequential decision that anybody has ever made from

running a red light to not running a red light.

But the crazy thing about your comparison, and by crazy, I mean only to say that it's barely been a year.

Yeah.

And you just went down a laundry list of things that are, I don't care how you voted, undeniably consequential.

It's easy to look back over 270 years or whatever and say, Good grief, what if that Indian would have hit the father of their country?

But I mean, this is happening so fast, and maybe that's a good way to kind of pivot into the speed of the news cycle and the speed of your own life and the speed that everything that's happened has happened.

And just like on a micro level, how are you keeping pace?

And on a macro level, you know,

where are we headed?

No pressure, but if you called it right in 2016,

what is Selena Zito seeing now that her compatriots are missing?

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Whether you like President Trump or not, you cannot deny in the same way you could not deny about FDR and the New Deal Democrats that he has fundamentally changed American politics.

He has occupied a space that will, 15 years, that will

have been larger than what Roosevelt occupied when he was president.

You know what else I think he's done too?

And I think it's safe to say this in a completely nonpartisan way.

Future presidents

are going to be weighed and measured by the speed with which they act.

And until now,

that speed has all lived pretty much in a lane.

Some slightly faster than others, but by and large, right?

By and large, the pace is ponderous.

Yes.

It's by design.

But this, you're right, I think he's changed politics in a lot of different ways, but the way we can't possibly know yet is how this is going to impact future presidents.

And what's the next man or woman in that office going to think when they look at their first 100 days and go, well, where's the benchmark?

I think we know.

Yeah.

You know,

men or women, we haven't had a woman yet, do not become president without the working class, without the middle class.

You just don't.

And he has

broken

the long line of the New Deal Democrat Coalition.

You know, people often say that Barack Obama, I've said Barack Obama did that.

And not 2008.

New Deal Democrats, they were with Barack Obama in 2008.

By 2012, that changed because

he went through a more social justice program, right, and climate justice.

So that gave no room for the working class to be in there because climate justice eliminates their jobs.

So Barack Obama in 2012, people forget this, he's the first president to ever earn less votes.

in his reelection to office the second time than he did the first time.

In Pennsylvania alone, and I think always think that Pennsylvania is just such a microcosm of understanding where American voters are because we sort of have everything here, right?

In Pennsylvania alone, he went from winning 10%, almost 11% of the vote, to under 5%

in 2012.

They didn't go to Mitt Romney.

They thought he was a nice guy, but they also thought he looked like the guy that would like bring a box to your desk and escort you out.

Right.

They didn't see a guy that was like, I have your back.

I'm going to break stuff and I have your back.

So Trump comes along and he breaks all of that in 2016.

I have long argued in 2020, that 2020, everyone, you know, said in that election cycle when Joe Biden won, that, see, Donald Trump was a fluke and the Republicans are going to go back to being Republicans and the Democrats are going to go back to being Democrats.

And I'm like, no, y'all are reading it wrong.

Joe Biden will end up being the fluke.

And he will be the fluke mostly because of COVID.

We were all sort of

a mess, right?

Everything was just not where we were used to it.

And so

I think that in history, Joe Biden will go down as the fluke.

And Donald Trump will own

the space in our history between 2015 and if jd vance or marco rubio become our next president after him he will own then an additional four years he will own till i can't add 32.

so yeah oh yeah what a missed opportunity for joe biden to simply do what he said he was going to do yeah to be a transitional figure you know i mean i i don't want to it's it's just too easy a target at this point but yeah back in i guess it was 2012 through very weird set of circumstances I wound up in Mitt Romney's trailer.

I had shown up to participate in a manufacturing roundtable, and it turned into this rally.

And I should not have been there.

I didn't want to be a part of that.

But the press was there, and the photo op was done, and it was me and Mitt on stage together.

And, you know, that sent an unfortunate message.

But the point is, afterwards,

he apologized.

He was very gracious.

And he told me

the nicest guy.

I mean,

he said, look, this guy, Mike Rowe, was invited for this.

Now he's here.

And when I told him, and when he saw that it turned into a rally, I fully expected him to leave because he was very clear that he's running an apolitical foundation and didn't want to be a part of that.

But he said, no, I'm here.

I said I'd be here.

And so he thanked me and I thanked him.

Again, none of it matters because a photo is a gajillion words.

But afterwards, he literally looked at me, Selena, and said, well,

any advice?

What would you do?

And I said, seriously?

You're asking me.

And he said, yeah, I'm curious.

What would you do if you were me?

How do I reach these people?

He said, look, I'm a gajillionaire.

Everybody knows it.

And I'm talking to regular working people, the people you profile on dirty jobs all the time.

And I said, well, If you really want to win, I'd go on TV and I'd have a flip chart right next to me, and I would embrace my inner geek because you are.

You're a wonk, right?

You're a numbers guy.

You're a right?

You're a Bane Cali.

Just explain to the country like a businessman what you're going to do, walk them through the whole thing, and then promise one term and out.

We are desperate for somebody to say, even back then, somebody who didn't want the job so damn badly they would do or say whatever their

focus groups told them to do and say.

I said, just promise for, just say, look, I can get it done in four years.

I'm good at this.

And then I'll be happy.

Yeah, you did the Olympics.

You could do it.

I was naive.

It's impossible.

No one,

I don't, except the aforementioned George Washington, took a pass on a third term.

Yeah.

And Joe Biden promised one term.

Yeah.

And he changed his mind.

And so here we are.

What a time.

It is extraordinary to be a part of history, don't you think?

Because you guys are part of it.

And

you're a part of it.

You're making it.

I guess maybe we all are, but I mean.

Yeah, we all are.

If you wouldn't have embraced this, there's this saying that I have hanging up my bedroom.

It says

it makes a difference to eternity

whether we choose to do right or wrong today.

Meaning,

no matter the most granular thing that we do, it has an impact

being out on the forefront for the working person right being out there and and celebrating being a welder celebrating being a carpenter a mechanic whatever it may a hairdresser whatever it may be someone that is in the trades is something that hasn't been done since i was in high school and

we were in high school pretty much the same time close to it anyway yeah you know Well, look, I want to go back to U.S.

Steel for a minute because that's a really important point.

And it's one that Isaacson made yesterday to Fareed.

At least he tried to.

He tried to articulate the importance of work beyond the transactional, just beyond the paycheck.

And when you were talking about U.S.

Steel and when you were talking about all those Steelers' bars, how many did you say?

Over 4,000?

4,672, I think.

That's amazing.

But I get it because I was in Baltimore when the Colts left in the middle of the night.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

That was so sad.

I remember thinking that was so terrible.

It was.

I mean, it's an entity that is armed with everything you gave it.

They're leaving with your hopes and your dreams and your investment, your time,

all those things, right?

So whether it's a company or a sports franchise or a lover, you know, whether it's big or small, whether you're just talking about a divorce or a country ripped in half and trying to get itself reconnected.

This is a very powerful thing.

And we don't need curators like Farid.

We need connectors.

We need people who are genuinely curious enough to go into the other side.

So my question...

at the end of all that is to ask you to talk about the Washington Post and how in the hell did a jagged little pill like you

who does not write in a style that that paper would typically embrace has empowered you to write for them on a regular basis.

I was very happy for you when you told me about it, but I was also happy for the Post because I think they could be the ultimate beneficiary of this.

Yeah,

so they came to to me, I guess it was September of last year, and they said, would you be interested?

Like, you know, would you be interested in doing a monthly piece?

And I laughed because I'm like, wait, did you call the wrong person?

Did you know who I am?

And it wasn't like, don't you know I am?

It was like, don't you know I am?

And we just started a conversation and we just kept going back and forth.

And I said, I don't want to do anything different than the way I do it.

You know, I go out there, I report a story, and I don't,

if you read my stories, even though I'm considered a columnist, there's not really an opinion in them.

They're reported columns, right?

That get out there and I talk to people and I listen to people and I try to take all that fabric of what I've learned and try to make sense of it and tell a good story about what's happening in the country.

So the first one I did was I sat down with for the first time, Dave McCormick and John Fetterman.

Now it's a regular,

it's a regular two-man show, right?

Yeah, now.

Yes, David McCormick is a senator from Pennsylvania, Republican, and John Fetterman is also a senator from Pennsylvania, but a Democrat.

Then I went to U.S.

Steel and spent the day at U.S.

Steel.

That was, and got to tell, I mean, it was the best day of my career.

I really got to get in there and talk to those guys and tell their story.

And they let me drive a million-dollar truck.

They're crazy.

But they let, you know, it was awesome.

And then the third story was

AI and energy.

And I talk about this brand new plant that's being, and I mean, when I was talking to my editors about this AI data center, that was $10 billion AI data center that's going to be fueled by natural gas because AI data centers are thirsty, but they just require so much electricity.

And it's going to happen on a hill in western Pennsylvania, Indiana County, where Jimmy Stewart was born.

And they're like, wait, what?

What?

Pennsylvania?

It doesn't go in like Silicon Valley?

No.

And so it's been a joy to introduce new readers to the stories that I write.

The story that would be out the day this podcast comes out is a sit-down with President Trump, but also with Helen Compatore and myself.

Now that both of them

are the fireman who died.

Yes.

And it is a

gutting interview with both of them.

Just really emotional.

And it comes through in the book how much President Trump has been impacted by what happened that day.

Not because of himself, but because of the death of Corey.

Someone who came to have fun with his family.

Like, if you've ever gone to a Trump rally, they're like a Jimmy Buffett concert, right?

Except without parrot heads, that people are dressed in patriotic gear and they're happy and they're joyful and it's like a lot of fun.

And for someone to be coming to experience that and then hear him talk and be killed, that's really been rough on President Trump.

And it really comes through in the Butler book when we have several interviews.

And he talks about that, and he talks about God a lot, the hand of God.

But so, those are the first four stories that I've done for the Washington Post.

And the readers really like them, to my great surprise.

I don't really get the mean,

super mean comments in the comment section.

I've also learned not to read them.

Yeah.

Avoid the comment section.

Yeah, it's where souls go to die, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean, you have to ask yourself why.

Like, before you go and start reading comments, you should really be honest with yourself.

What do I hope to learn here?

And if the answer is, I hope to read things that make me feel really good,

then

just choose to feel really good.

Yeah.

And don't run the risk of falling through the ice because it's cold down there.

Oh, yeah.

Go have a popsicle or a shot of whiskey.

Don't read the comments section.

It's not a good place.

It's a very dark place.

You were,

speaking of dark places, you were, what, four feet from him

on that?

I was four feet from the president.

Yeah.

So, look, help me here a little bit.

You're a very good interviewer, and I'm trying to ask you questions that I think that I would want to be asked if I were in your place.

But I'm also aware that you must be sick to death of answering the same questions.

No, not at all.

I want people to know about this day.

Okay, then tell them.

Because,

and obviously, tell me whatever story from the book you think matters most, but if you can,

do it in service to the idea

that we may have moved on.

from this event a little too quickly.

Yeah.

It sure felt like

something so big happened.

And then I don't know if it's the news site or what, but how in the world did that not

dominate?

Shameless plug.

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Soon may the nobleman come to bring a bottle for everyone.

One day when the waiting is done, we'll take a drink and go.

It should have dominated for weeks.

It's still, we should still be talking about it.

I'll give the readers a little bit of insight.

There's two things you should know about me.

Interviews never freak me out.

It doesn't matter who I'm interviewing.

It's just a conversation.

That's how I approach it.

The one thing that does freak me out is logistics.

I hate logistics because you're out of control.

You know, when you're going to a Trump rally, it's like, I got to get there like five hours early.

You know, there's going to be traffic.

What if I forgot something and I can't get in?

My ID.

It's like, I'm a super head case about that.

The idea that day was I was going to interview President Trump five minutes before the rally.

And I was like, it's gonna be longer.

He loves to talk, right?

Like, I was, I was not gonna, I wasn't counting on five minutes, but I wrote down on my piece of paper my four questions I was gonna ask him, crumbled it up, and stuck it inside my wallet.

And my daughter was with me, and my son-in-law.

My daughter's a photojournalist.

My son-in-law we brought with us because we thought he would carry the equipment and we would stay looking very poised in 102-degree weather.

That didn't happen.

So we all just ended up being hot.

We get there, we get on time, we're out in the blazing heat doing some interviews, talking to people, and about

two hours before the president's supposed to get there, I get a text that says, hey, we're running late, so

text from me.

That was the first,

who was it?

Susie Wiles.

Oh, Chief of Staff?

And yeah, which is co-campaign chair.

Yeah,

her and Chris Lesavita, who is from Pittsburgh.

He's a Yinser.

He was the other co-campaign chair.

And so

I get the text and I'm like, oh, there it is.

When you're a journalist, like 60% of the time, the interview you're supposed to have isn't going to happen and you have to expect it.

I'm like, there it is.

It's not happening.

And I get a text like right after that.

And she says, we're going to do it it after because we're running late.

I'm like, okay.

And I text Chris Lesavita.

What the heck?

Is this going to get canceled, isn't it?

Like, it's not my usual reaction.

But I was really hot and I was really hungry.

You're getting

right.

Yeah.

And he's like, no, no, no, no.

We're going to, it's going to be fine.

You're fine, Zito.

You're fine.

By the way, Chris Lesavita is famous for putting me on a horse in my first interview that I did with a candidate that he was running in Virginia.

and he thought I wouldn't do it.

And I just jumped right up on there, and he's had respect and love for me ever since.

So that's so he says it's okay, it's gonna happen.

And then I get a text from Susie Wiles and says,

Hey, so

we don't think we have enough time to do the interview.

I'm like, There it is.

And then

she does this great pause, right?

It's like, you know, leaving me like,

and then she says, so how would you feel about flying to Bedminster?

I'm like, oh, okay.

I didn't see that coming.

So I asked my daughter and her husband if they could go.

They have four little kids.

So I didn't, you know, like watching, I watch the four little kids all the time, but there's not a lot of other people that have.

There are a lot.

But we got someone to watch the kids.

And

about five minutes before like Trump lands and everybody's all happy, you know, the buzz goes around.

He's behind the stage.

He does this thing called a click line where he meets with mostly first responders and pulls some people out of

the crowd and just, you know, like meets them, shakes their hand, asks about their life.

And so he's back there.

And all of a sudden, this young man, his name was Michelle Picard III.

He comes, he's the campaign

press guy, and he goes, it's go time.

I'm like, wait, what?

We're going now?

So we go running through the crowd.

We get behind the,

we get behind the stage.

My daughter's like exhausted.

We're like, we're soaked.

My son-in-law's with us.

And we get to this click line.

And I looked at Michelle Picard and I said,

where are we doing this interview?

And he like looks at me very sheepishly.

He goes, I don't know.

So he goes around and he asks President Trump.

And President Trump says, where's my Selena?

And he comes back.

Michelle Picard comes back and he goes, yeah, you're not interviewing now.

He just wants to say hi.

So

I go around.

He's like, there, look, doesn't she have the best hair in journalism?

And I said, no, Mike Rowe calls it a mop.

So apparently I don't.

And we talk about my grandchildren.

And, you know, he's like, do you,

do you, do you know, you're okay with coming on the plane i'm like yeah right like i wouldn't be okay with that i mean i didn't say that i'm i get really quiet i'm like yes sir i'm fine sir what kind of plane is he in at this point trump force one trump force okay trump force one

and so we um he goes you know we talk about grandchildren you talk about pennsylvania he goes all right i'll see you in the plane right after so at that point i can hear the music outside and there's like a certain

number of certain songs that go in order and it's time for him to go on stage.

Michelle Picard looks at myself and my daughter, and Shannon, and

my son-in-law, Michael, and he says,

Yeah, you're just going to have to go in the buffer because you're just going to have to leave to go in the motorcade.

Explain what the buffer is.

Buffer, yeah.

The buffer is this area between the stage where the president is and where the audience, where the rallygoers are.

And it's probably an eight-foot-wide area, mostly secret service is in it and photojournalists.

And that's it.

They have the pull spray.

So the pull spray will go through and take photos as he goes in and goes out and just takes shots of the crowd.

And so Shannon, Mike, and I are in the pool or in the buffer.

So if you look at the cover of Butler, which I'm going to show everyone, see?

Where's your?

Oh, you got your cover?

I got it right there.

Got it, Van.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So if you look at that cover, my daughter took that photo.

We're following him out

in the buffer.

And you can see, like that photo illustrates so much that is important because you see

that his relationship with the crowd is very transactional.

He feeds off of them, they feed off of him.

It's a very emotional connection.

Yeah.

Look at the faith.

And yeah.

And

so we're in the buffer.

We follow him out.

We go in front of the podium.

We have some great shots of great video all the way around.

We eventually go off to the side because that's where we'll exit for the

motorcade.

It's like

four minutes into his speech and this chart goes down.

I'm like, what is he, Ross Perot?

He never has a chart.

And the second thing that caught my,

just in a flicker, he never turns his neck away like this.

He'll turn his body away, but he never faces away from the crowd.

In that that moment he did he turns his neck the chart goes down he turns his neck pop pop pop pop

and i see him grab his ear i see the blood streak across his face i see a sea of blue come out around him he doesn't fall down that was the first thing i noted i'm like okay

he went down on his own Like it's really, you know, people say things happen in slow motion.

That definitely happened in slow motion.

I watch the whole thing in slow motion.

I can still replay every second of it, every smell, everything.

And

a sea of blue comes around him.

I'm still standing.

I've got the recorder on in my phone.

Not because I'm trying, just because I had it on, right?

Because I wanted to record his speech.

I'm not thinking about that.

I hear four more pops.

And then Michelle Picard takes me down

into the ground.

And

I can see the whole thing.

I hear the whole conversation he has with the Secret Service.

I hear him insist on putting his shoes on before he stands up, which is almost like, it was almost like comic relief in that moment because he was so insistent that his shoes were on.

And some of the things that stand out to me is

there was no

panic.

in that crowd.

That panic, that crowd kept saying, USA.

And I can see Trump.

He's almost facing me at this point.

And I hear him mouth USA.

He doesn't say it out loud.

He's facing

the crowd, the crowd that was behind him, not the big crowd in the farm field.

And he turns around and that's when he says, fight, fight, fight.

And

they take him past me.

His hat got knocked off, but the Secret Service person had it in the crook of their hands, right?

There is a guy in camo as they take him past me that has a gun right at my face.

And for some reason, I wasn't afraid.

I just knew that they were protecting him.

And they take him and take him, they walk past me, and his hat just slowly falls right in front of me.

I just remember feeling like I heard it land.

I didn't.

There was something about that moment that felt powerful.

People can read the rest of what happened the rest of that day, but I think what's really important, and this is, you know, the beginning of the rest of the book, is he calls me the next morning.

And am I allowed to swear?

Yeah.

Okay.

He calls me the next morning.

And I don't usually swear like a truck driver, but only when I'm really like

something, whatever.

He calls me the next morning and he said, before I could even say hello, he says, Selena, are you okay?

Are Shannon and Michael okay?

And I said, are you finging kidding me?

You were just shot

and you're asking how I am.

And it was really quiet.

He would go on and people will read it in the book.

He called me seven times that day.

Some very, very powerful conversations.

And the one I will share right now that I think people people don't understand,

because I asked him, just like I asked him last week when I went on Air Force One, can't believe Flight Community College, Selena went to Air Force, Air Force One, right?

I asked him that day, and I repeated it last week when we were talking, why did you say fight, fight, fight?

And he said, I wasn't Donald Trump in that moment.

I was representing the country.

I had to show the country that we are going to be okay.

We are going to survive this.

I could not show weakness.

I didn't want people that were there to panic,

and I didn't want people at home to panic because I knew they were watching it.

So, in that moment, I was saying, fight, fight, fight for our country, for the office of the presidency, not for myself.

And that really,

really got me.

I um

chokes me up.

Yeah.

Actually, I called Chuck.

I watched it happen.

Yeah.

And

I think the first thing I said was,

well,

he's going to win.

Yeah.

And I wonder how long it took you to even triangulate that.

Interesting that you asked that.

There are two moments that happened within a year of each other.

First, him showing up in East Palestine, Ohio.

That was a big inflection moment for President Trump.

At that moment, if you look back at the polling, this is when the primary, so this is February 23, right?

He'd been down in the polls, and Ron DeSantis had just taken the lead over him in the New Hampshire primary.

And

he shows up in East Palestine.

And I'm there, but I don't talk to him.

I put a baseball cap on my head and sunglasses on, even though it was like Appalachia gray, right?

But I didn't want to be seen.

I just really wanted to soak this up.

And it was awful that day.

There was sleet.

There was snow.

If you look at him, he has galoshes.

He's got his pants tucked in his galoshes.

He's got a big trench coat on.

He shows up with a couple 18-wheelers filled with water bottles, Trump water, because he's always a salesman.

And he buys all the

public safety people, the first responders, McDonald's.

And he walks all the way through town.

He walks through those puddles.

And you know that my reporting on East Palestine, it was scary there.

I reported on that for weeks, and I would go home with the worst headaches.

It was terrible.

You didn't know, we didn't know what were in those puddles.

We still don't.

And he showed up in that moment, and I said, said,

this is, he won this primary.

And within two weeks, he pulled ahead in that primary and never looked back.

And then Butler happened.

And I felt like Butler just reinforced that, not because he was shot as much as because of how he responded to being shot.

And how he embraced faith in that moment.

People make fun of it.

You know, people are awkward with faith.

You know, you, and it's because we, you know, a lot of us were taught to be humble about our faith, right?

And so

people didn't believe it, but I have seen it repeatedly with him, that this was a big, powerful moment with him, with God.

If East Palestine was the beginning, Butler was the defining moment.

I couldn't imagine him not winning my state.

And if he doesn't win my, if he he wins my state of Pennsylvania, then he wins Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, Nevada, and North Carolina, because those states are just a tinge less Democrat than Pennsylvania is.

Is that why you think the Post reached out?

Do you think they've realized, I know you believe this, but I'll just ask it anyway.

Is Pennsylvania truly the hinge?

in this whole thing?

That's exactly.

That's exactly.

They reached out because, as they believe, Pennsylvania is the it state.

You know, California used to be the it state.

Sorry, sorry, guys.

Pennsylvania is where everything

happens.

It's going to be the center of the 250

celebration.

It is the center of innovation and workforce development.

It is the center of politics.

It's the center of culture.

And because it has a generous mix of everything that the country is, including that little something-something back in the day in Titusville, I believe.

Edmund Drake,

as I recall, yeah, Colonel Drake, who wasn't really a colonel.

That's where the first Industrial Revolution was.

That began because of the oil that was discovered in Titusville.

Right.

Because at that point, we're talking 1853-ish,

59, 59.

Factories couldn't be open after dark, right?

If they could,

but it was really expensive and we were killing all the whales to do it, right?

Down to like half a dozen.

I mean, we'd waged a holy war on the right whales, we called them.

Yeah.

And so, you know, because of what happened in Titusville, that Fed, that just the way natural gas will be feeding the AI revolution, the next industrial revolution, people aren't going to think of AI as an industrial revolution because they don't understand the concept of how workforce is part of AI.

They think Silicon Valley.

They should think welders.

They should think plumbers.

That's the AI revolution.

Because if I didn't make this point, I think I made it.

too subtly before and had I got a word in the other day at the Ideas Festival, I would have said this to Fareed.

How ironic that those two

sides of the economy, as you've described them, among the perils facing the work with your hands crew was the idea of being outsourced by robots.

I couldn't go anywhere for years without somebody asking me, Mike, do you really think the robots are going to come and completely upend the skilled trades as we understand them?

And,

you know, I answered as best I could, not having a crystal ball, but now,

which half of the economy is about to be more materially disrupted by the advent of AI?

It's going to be that half that is dealing with the ephemeral thoughts and assets and bits and bites.

It's going to be the people who have been the highest paid by and large.

He's not wrong about that,

you know, if he's going to paint with that broad a brush, but but those are the people looking over their shoulders now.

And part of the memo that you've helped me put out, and that I hope I can help you double down on, is just to completely turn that upside down because you're 100% right.

The future,

look, plus it's a false choice.

It's not, oh, my mind or my hands.

Right.

Just got to, it's two sides of the same coin, for God's sakes.

And I, if Pennsylvania can lead that charge, I'll join you there anytime.

Well, that would be fun.

Look, no profession is going to get hit harder than mine by AI.

AP report, that can be done by AI.

But going to a diner, going in a steel mill, oh, and then one of the next story I'm doing for the Washington Post, I am following a piece of coal from a coal wall,

a wall, coal wall, I used to be able to talk,

all the way up to the top of the mine, onto a dump truck, onto a train, on a barge, to a coal-fired power plant.

So that can't be done by AI.

You can't show that texture, that feeling, those people that you interact with.

And those are the people that are going to keep their jobs.

They're not going to be replaced by AI.

But my profession, unless you hustle and get out there.

Yeah, there's no shortcuts.

Somebody sent me a tape not long ago.

They asked the AI to narrate a couple of paragraphs for some corporate video in the style of Mike Rowe narrating Deadliest Catch.

And so I listened to it.

I clicked on the link.

And because I knew what I was listening to, I was able to discern, you know, some moments that weren't quite right.

But had you not told me, Or had you said, hey, Mike, do you remember recording this?

It was like 12 years ago and it was for some, you know, some industrial you did.

I would have listened to it and said, no, I don't remember doing it, but obviously I did.

Yeah, oh, that's scary.

That is scary.

That is so scary.

And it's top of the first inning.

So all those little clicks and little things, that's going to be gone soon.

Screenwriters are just in a flat-out panic.

For the same reason, I guess some journalists are.

But you're right.

The good ones will continue to show up.

I mean, that's the thing.

Show up.

Yeah.

I remember talking to you after Palestine.

And,

you know, whenever I talk to Selena, folks, I always have a notepad nearby because I like to jot things down.

She always says something smart.

But that's what you said that day.

You just said, he showed up, Mike.

Yeah.

It didn't.

Never mind the McDonald's.

Never mind the Galash's.

Never mind the Trump-branded water or all the other things people might look at to say, oh, what an opportunity.

Yes.

Right.

That's what everybody wrote about.

Right.

I wrote about him showing up.

He showed up.

Yes.

That was the difference.

That's what I saw.

And what more people should have said, like, that's what's wrong with my profession.

You're writing about, oh, he used Trump water.

And there's like a, like a think piece about using Trump water.

And I'm like, you idiots.

Sorry, Jesus.

It's about showing up because you remember that song by Billy Joel, Allentown.

I think we've had this discussion before.

Okay?

And everybody sang along with Allentown, right?

But not everybody lived in Allentown, but they felt that.

They saw themselves in it.

Well, people looked at East Palestine and saw themselves.

Yeah.

Well, he showed up.

That's right.

But a whole lot of other people, elected officials, people in positions of power and leadership, they didn't.

No.

So here's an honest question.

Did they not show up because they're craven,

because they're indifferent, or

did they just look at a thing and see something else?

It's an indifference.

It's an indifference.

It's an absolute indifference.

You know, I talked to a lot of my friends who were strategists and sort of attached to the Biden

administration or campaign people, right?

And half of them were split.

The ones that understand

were like, God,

show up.

What is wrong with you?

It took them 398

White House press releases to finally get to it.

398.

from the day it happened until they finally acknowledged it in the White House press briefings.

And the other half were like, it's

so what

right they're they're just like so what i mean it's east palestine nobody died no so we don't care

um the woman that you connected me with i'm not going to drop her name just yet because we haven't done a press release but we were talking last night over dinner and i asked her about west north carolina Yeah, Western North Carolina.

And she got very emotional.

Her company does a lot of business in that part of the country.

And there are people there, Selena now, who left their jobs in Charlotte and other neighboring towns, and they just moved there to volunteer and help.

They're still there.

Oh, yeah, I've been there several times.

But the volunteers are still the place is still in ruins.

They're building it back.

Like, when I look at journalism, I see

two things:

It's being ignored geographically.

And for the same reasons, the same indifference, I think, that led a lot of people to conclude there was really nothing to write about in East Palestine.

But they're also missing one of the greatest stories.

One of the greatest stories.

One of the most, I mean, if you're looking for humanity, If you're trying to find the neighbors you wish you had, find the people in western North Carolina who have been volunteering, who have taken indefinite leaves of absences from their companies to be there for their neighbors to help them.

I've written about it several times.

I've showcased people that have been doing that.

There is a group of Amish from Pennsylvania that have been down there for several weeks that I've highlighted.

You know, it's just been wondering.

So, if you wonder about societal fabric and do we still have it, yes.

You can see it so much in western North Carolina.

You can also see it in Wheeling, West Virginia, where two weeks ago, nine people died in a flash flood, including a three-year-old little girl.

And the first people to show up are volunteer firemen and neighbors.

And so our connective tissue is there, but oftentimes our government is not.

I've talked several times with Russell Voigt, who's the OMB, and he's in charge of FEMA, and they've been on top of it down there.

The problem is, is that the first two or three months under the last administration, it was just benign neglect.

Do you blame the administration or the media?

Or both.

Both.

I would say both.

I mean.

Who reports on it?

It's Appalachia, right?

It's the one part of the country.

It's still okay to make fun of people that live there.

It's still okay to call them hillbillies, right?

Or hill people.

It's Appalachia.

It's why am I going to cover this?

I'm going to go to LA and cover something.

That'll be bigger.

It's like when Sandy happened and it happened in New York, so everyone went to New York.

But you don't cover Western North Carolina.

I mean, I do, but the big legacy media doesn't.

It's so interesting.

I mean, I've said so many times, I know that you and I are kindred spirits.

I'm not a journalist, but I do remember

really wrestling with, there was a lot of pressure for me to take dirty jobs to New Orleans a month or so after Katrina.

And

I very nearly did, well, because I wanted to.

And then if I'm really being honest in kind of a shitty way,

I would look good.

down there with my crew.

You know, I'm not proud of that, but I remember one evening watching the coverage, I called my boss at Discovery and said, look, I don't think the country needs to see another B-list celebrity striking a heroic pose or some journalist perched on a pile of rubble bringing you the absolute latest.

I think maybe what they're going to need is some attention a year from now or maybe two years.

Chuck, you went down there.

You did some volunteer down there.

How long after did you go?

It was a couple of years after.

It was like four years after.

And I went for five years in a row

and helped in Waveland, Mississippi.

That's where they say the levees broke in New Orleans, but Waveland, the storm hit Waveland.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

So the question, Selena, is like, as a journalist, and now you're about to become a very famous person.

I know you're going to hate this.

You don't want to hear they're making a movie about you, right?

You can't just be a journalist, no matter how much you want to be.

You're going to be, God help me, an influencer.

You already are, but I mean, you're going to, people are going to look to you as a connector, as an arbiter of common sense.

Some are going to call you the Trump whisperer.

You're going to be seen as a person who was right when everybody else was wrong and who stuck by her guns and so forth and so on.

And you're going to have to learn to deal with all of that praise and all the cheap shots that come with it.

Lots of Jesus.

Yeah, yeah.

So much Jesus.

But you're going to constantly have to make these calls about what to cover and what not to cover.

And I think maybe the place to land this plane or at least start to is to is to just talk about that for a minute, partly because I I wrestle with it all the time.

I've got 2,500 kids who's got, who have great stories.

Which one should I write about?

I can't write about them all.

You know, you've got a thousand towns you can go to and a million stories you can tell.

And, you know, you're going to have to become very circumspect, I think, very discriminating with your time and with your talent.

I am.

So the last two stories that I wrote are probably where my heart is and where the things I'll always be covering.

I went to Wheeling, where the flood killed people.

This is an historic moment.

Nine people, right?

That's unbelievable.

Four inches, almost five inches of rain fell in 20 minutes.

Right?

And this is West Virginia, so the topography is, and you guys grew up in Maryland, you know what it's like.

Deep gullies,

as I say, creeks and mountains.

And these people's lives are torn apart.

These communities are never the same.

But it's also a story of richness.

You see Fairmont State University opening up their doors and putting family, an entire apartment building collapsed.

You know, dozens of people were put out.

Those are the stories I will always cover.

The second story I just did is the shocking

hollowing out of volunteer firemen

across the country.

I mean, in Pennsylvania alone, when I graduated from high school, there were 370,000 volunteer firefighters in Pennsylvania alone.

There are now 39,000.

That's one-tenth.

That is something that I think is really important to show up.

The first people that showed up, first firefighters that showed up when Governor Josh Shapiro's house was firebombed by a madman was a volunteer fire company.

You know, the first people that showed up in Western North Carolina, volunteer firemen.

And so we need to educate and call out to get young people and middle-aged people to go out there and do that.

You don't have to go in for a fire, but you could be there doing the staging, right?

We need to inspire people.

And so those are the kind of stories I will always write.

Those are the ones that are closest to my heart.

I'm not someone that tends to run to, you know, the flashy story.

You know, even with Western North Carolina, I waited two weeks before I went down there because I knew all the celebrity journalists will be down there for the first two weeks and then they run away, right?

Because, but I continuously go down there and highlight and write about that.

If we weren't so damn busy, you and me, we ought to collaborate at some point.

We do.

I can imagine a big, thick book called For Your Consideration and

just

photos and profiles of the people that we've met and the little things they've done that aren't really so little at all.

You're so right about the firemen.

We've had a couple on this podcast, specifically because the recruiting, and this is back to the trades too, right?

Yeah.

This is not about just welders and plumbers.

There's this whole giant pressure on the labor pool.

It's bad, you know, five out, two in.

We've talked about it year after year.

Five out, two in, five out, two in.

So, you know, the submarine makers are competing for the same people the volunteer fire department is desperate to have, and so forth, and so forth.

So,

look, I wish I had a crystal ball, but if there's a solution to all of this, you are part of it, my friend.

Well, so are you.

And I think the onus is to be good examples and shine a light on the people that make a difference and the people that we need to make a difference.

I mean, at the end of my book, I thank my parents, my grandchildren, my children, but I also thank every person who let me come in their home and annoy them, let me come to their church, let me go bowling with them, let me work with them.

You know, those, and President Trump for putting up with me, because I am annoying.

I admit it.

What is it like?

I'm sorry, this is small, but people are probably curious.

You're just going through your day.

You're sitting there in your house.

You know,

you got all your old recipes, stuff.

You're just being yourself.

And you get a text, and it's the president.

Did you ever imagine, in your wildest fantasies, that your penchant, your proclivity for taking the back road, would somehow land you here?

I have been a cafeteria worker.

I have been a shampoo girl.

I have cut people's hair.

I went to community college.

I have been a daycare worker.

I have worked in a sewer treatment plant.

These were all jobs that I took.

I was not particularly good at any of them.

But to think that I am very humbled by the fact that the President

will talk to me.

And I think it's mutual respect

and that common thread is a mutual respect because we we both see that we both appreciate and love the people I cover, which just happen to be the same people that have galvanized behind him for the most part.

And I think that's where that thing happens.

What a trip you're having.

Do me a favor, and when you talk to him next, give him my regards.

Tell him our paths are destined to cross.

Tell him I've had great meetings with Linda McMahon,

Governor Abbott.

Oh, she's great.

Yep, I'm sitting down with Governor Abbott very soon.

We've got some big things planned in Texas.

Just had a great meeting yesterday with Governor Kemp in Georgia.

Oh, great guy.

So

I don't know that for me and for my little foundation really, or even for this big macro problem we're talking about, I don't know that the ultimate solution is a dot-gov.

But I think our government has to play a role in turning all of this around.

And I made the same offer to President Obama.

If I can be of use and still hang on to what's left of my sanity, I'm at their disposal.

Well, President Trump is not a big government guy, but he is a guy that likes to inspire.

And inspiring young people to get into the trades is part of what he wants to accomplish.

You know, let's just think about this, and I'll leave you on this because you have taken way too much of your time.

But we've only gone through, what, 120, 130 days of this presidency.

Technically,

it's a lame duck, right?

Like, usually they're like chilling out, like, I won the second one, guys.

Let's go.

Not this guy.

No way.

Not this guy.

Part of that has to do with being spared.

And he believes that he has a purpose, a greater purpose, and he wants to get it done.

And he says it in the book.

He wants to save this country.

Whether you agree with him or not, having that near-death experience, I think all of us can wrap our head around.

It's called Butler.

It's out today, but it's about a lot more than

it's a township, right?

Yeah.

That is a township.

Yeah.

It's so hard to keep it straight.

Pennsylvania is so odd with its, and really.

Oh, we're all.

You really are, man.

But I mean, a township, a village, a borough.

We have no town.

We only have one town in the entire state.

You're either a borough or a municipality or a township or a village or an unincorporated

place, unincorporated place.

It means it's like, we don't think you exist.

We're not incorporated.

Yeah, yeah, we don't like you.

Well, look, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced you're right.

And so is the Post.

Pennsylvania.

is about to become a kind of, not just a litmus test, but a reflection of a great many things.

I wish I was smart enough to come up with a better metaphor, but the melting pot that we are and that horrible casserole you described with peas, meatloaf, gelatin, all of this smashed together.

It's such a messy, delicious,

fun, wonderful thing.

And you're bearing witness to all of it.

Pick up the book.

You'll love it.

Check out her columns over at you still, Selenazito.com?

Selenazito.

Yeah, just me.

Yeah.

Yep.

If you have a hard time finding her, I don't know what what to tell you because she's about to be everywhere.

She's like stepping in gum, my friend.

With my mop hair.

With your mop hair.

My God.

So great to see you.

Thank you for doing this.

So awesome to see you.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

If you leave some stars, could you make it five?

And before you go, could you please subscribe?

If you leave some stars, could you make it five?

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If you leave some stars, could you make it five and before

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