Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey

The official White Lotus podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie & Fitch. Every five-star getaway needs a five-star wardrobe, preferably without the drama.
Abercrombie & Fitch's long weekend collection has you covered. Discover versatile Mila dresses, classic skirts, and the refined A&F Collins suit, easily styled for dressier laid-back looks.
Perfect for any moment on your itinerary. Your vacation starts now.
Use Lotus 15 to get an extra 15% off almost everything at checkout. Code valid in the U.S.
and Canada through April 13th. Exclusions apply.
See site for details. Pack wisely with Abercrombie & Fitch.
I started wondering where am I going with this? What do I feel this need to fuck all these women?

What is desire?

The form of this cute Asian girl,

why does it have such a grip on me?

Because she's the opposite of me?

Is she gonna complete me in some way?

I realized if I could fuck a million women,

I'd still never be satisfied.

Maybe, maybe what I really want

is to be one of these Asian girls. Hello and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three.
I'm Gia Tolentino. And I'm Josh Behrman.
And, uh, wow. What an episode.
We knew that stuff was going to happen in the full moon party, but before we start talking about the episode, I have a question for you. I feel like this is a valuable opportunity for us.
I'm an Asian woman in front of a white man. I want to give you a safe space to say, like, if you have always, if you believe that on the inside you too are an Asian woman, you could say it now.
Right. Everybody is, there's a new permission structure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just wanted to make sure we had that in this room.
Okay, my real question for you was, are you sad that you didn't show up in the full moon party? Oh, yeah. I was...
For people that maybe missed earlier episodes, Josh was on set, bragging, bragging, having been on set for the full moon party. Yeah, and I was an extra, was dancing around, but I did not get a glimpse of myself, so I was very disappointed.
Yeah, I didn't see you either. I was gripping the table.
But no, we'll have to watch it again. Yeah, we'll watch it again just for you.
Yeah, just to see. All right.
So this episode is called Full Moon Party. It is written and directed by Mike White.
There is sort of two tracks happening on it. There is quieter stuff happening at the hotel with three of the Ratliffs, Belinda, Mook and Guy Talk, etc.
And then everyone else is letting loose. And later in this episode, we get to talk to two queens, Carrie Coon and Parker Posey.
A big part of this episode is our three gals and Chloe, Chelsea, Lachlan, and Saxon on the party boat. I mean, we're at episode five.
It's kind of like the midpoint of the story. And it's also that part, like if you're at camp or you're on vacation, there's the moment when you're skinny dipping in the pool on ecstasy.
Right. This is what is happening in this episode.
Everybody has just, like, the inhibitions have been shed. They've surveyed the social landscape, felt present, and now they're ready.
They're going for it. I mean, it's montaged together, right? You're seeing kind of these dual images of both parties, right? And so there's sort of on the boat, it's in stages.
They're like, there's the approach to the party. It's almost kind of like the mythical passage making, right? They're crossing the water.
They're talking about what to expect, and then they get to the party. Right.
You know what? I was saying last time that Saxon needs to confront, you know, the unassimilatable other or whatever. And it's like he goes in the zone at the end of the party, right? Like he is.
I was waiting for something like this moment for Saxon when he can't, you know, he says he's like, I don't do drugs. I am the drug because he can't handle drugs.
I know. He says Saxon doesn't do drugs.
So it's like a classic, like a third person. Yeah.
But Lachlan does. And Lachlan does it immediately.
Saxon is shocked. And then I guess Saxon does do drugs because he felt the peer pressure and he does it.
And I like how he almost immediately seems like on the verge of epiphany when they get to the full moon party. Since he's like never, you know, not in control, right, of his own self.
Confidence lock. That's how you get people to do what you want.
Because most people don't know what they want, and a lot of them, here's a little secret. They just want to be used.
He's always, like, at the gym, getting his pump, drinking his protein powder, and so to be kind of, like, intoxicated in a real way is something new to him. Right.
And he's also constantly articulating more than anyone his framework of how the world is and how the world works. And it seems like Lachlan was like, you know what, like, don't talk about it.
Just be about it. Like it's like Saxon is it's as if he's living within this sort of fortress of mantras about strength and domination.
Oh, right, right. But he is constantly constructing this by, like, advising other people about how he knows everything.
Oh, right. And then the drug renders him nonverbal.
And the drug does what these drugs do, which is a layer is removed and you have nothing but your deepest inner resources and instincts because you can't talk and have no idea what's happening. And Saxon is finding that he's kind of in awe.
You know, like he actually is left with kind of a gentle and profoundly vulnerable. Yes.
Like Lachlan is actually like his inner self is much more in command when stripped away than Saxon's is. And I love to see that.
They're having their little, like, boys chat. And then Lachlan says, one day I'm going to take you down.
Yeah? Come here. Come on.
And then Saxon is, I think he knows, oh, that's what I want to hear. That's what I want to hear from this kid.
But he doesn't know what that is about to mean because then when he is the one person who's afraid to take the drugs and does and you get the sense even that he's not even necessarily a big drinker. He doesn't get drunk.
Right. And he says even like, you slow down because you got to get the ladies drunk.
Right. He's like he's, you know, like tosses back a few frosty ones, but he's not out there getting drunk.
So to be. Oh, no.
He's like a diet, he's like a diet beer type. You know what I mean? Like, he's doing Miller High Life and alternating, you know, too.
Yeah. And my girls, my girls, Chelsea and Chloe, are like, yeah, whatever.
Like, I'll do this on a Tuesday, you know? Yeah, right. They're like, okay, yeah.
It doesn't matter. Chloe and Chelsea's conversation when they're girl-talking on the yacht, and Chelsea's like, he's like my like my child.
Right. Well, and she says you can't spend your life trying to rescue people.
But that is exactly what she's going to do. And she's on a yacht and she's going to a full moon party and she's in this beautiful place.
And all she can do is think about her 50-year-old boyfriend who might be about to murder someone. Right.
The foursome at the full moon party, they're not aggressive there. You know, they're kind of That's true.
feeling out what's going to happen later. They're sitting on the beach beholding the fireworks.
Right. They're in a little bit more of like a contemplative state.
Because they're all thinking about existence, kind of, right? It sort of feels like all four of them are in a space of not quite discontentment, but sort of existential transition in a little bit of a way where Chloe is like, I got into this business for money and constant attention from this man. The relationships run its course.
The relationships run its course. And Chelsea is wondering if hers has too, Like why am I just on the hook for this guy? And Lachlan is like, what will become of me? What is the form my power will take and do I have any? And can I exert it over my brother? And is he right about everything or is he not? And, you know, my sister is about to leave me and like what does that mean? And Saxon is like, I know exactly what the world is.
And he takes this drug and he's like, whoa. Yeah, right, right, right.
He would have been the person that if you'd asked him, he'd be like, no, no, no, I don't question anything. And then now, well, now he does.
Yes. But what's interesting, this might have been some kind of sense memory for me because I had kind of a similar experience while I happened to be there when the full moon party was shooting and it's 50,000 people.
It's this ridiculous scene. It is not my scene.
It's not where I ever would have wound up going. And neither was it really for most of the cast.
So everybody had this amped up weird energy like we're going to the full moon. And what the crowd is sort of like lucid heel backpackers that are on month seven.
Yes. Yeah.
There's a lot of that. Like white people in Tevas.
Yes. There's people getting like black light painting, you know, and like butterflies on their face and girls wearing like fairy wings.
Right, right, right. Dudes like with a backpack and no shirt on.
Right. It really is just sort of like spring break Daytona Beach, but Thai beach style.
Right, right. And so, and it's ridiculous.
And there's dudes breathing fire and you get these like buckets of booze. You get like a drink.
It's in a bucket. And I just did have this experience where at a certain point, we were like making fun of the party, kind of observing the party.
And then there just was a moment where like, now I'm at this party. Yeah, it's unironic.
And then there's no irony anymore. We're dancing.
And then that went on for hours. I had like dropped in, which is what happens in the episode, right? Like they all kind of like drop into this experience.
So like, okay, let's go for it. And you did it just through the experience rather than through the candies, sweet tarts or whatever.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't even need drugs.
I'm high on life, man. I did it.
And then swap over to the girls and the party is just getting great. I mean, it's like the lights are flashing, the music is pounding and they get onto the dance floor with the three Russians.
This was thrilling. I found this.
I adored it. Yes.
I adored it for so many reasons. I was thinking back to when we talked to Michelle Monaghan and she was saying Jacqueline is very interested in sort of control but also letting loose.

And this was the episode.

Like Jacqueline is very interested in sort of control, but also letting loose. And this was the episode like Jacqueline is on an unarticulated journey that's nonetheless extremely clear to the viewer.
Right. Like we see her at the club.
She's finally she's found the party she wanted to get to the whole time. She has engineered the perfect party.
Exactly. Like she's found the place where she where she can look at herself as if someone else is looking at her, which is what this character kind of wants.
She wants to be looking hot, to be looking young, to have younger hot men all around her. And watching her.
And we literally get her audience. There are these other three hot girls who are looking at her with great animosity.
And the more they look at her with animosity and jealousy, the more she is just lusciously loving it. Oh my God, it's so good.
And they're each reacting to the party in a different way. The three actresses were so good.
Like the entire time you can see that Leslie Bibb is uncomfortable. Even when the other girls are dancing absolutely free of inhibition, she is conscious that she's sweaty.
She's conscious that she's a little tired. You can see immediately that she's already hoping the night will be over.
She's checking her watch. She's like, OK, maybe another hour and then we can just go to bed.
Now the party is the mirror. Right.
Well, and unfortunately, Kate got assigned to Vlad, the guy with the live, laugh, love mural, the silver ring. I know.
He had a tough life. He had such a tough life, but he can't – he simply can't stop talking about it.
They're all like, yeah, like, what a fun party. You're so hot.
And he's like, my mother died when I was 12. Right.
That's true. So we can, you know, sympathize with Kate a little bit.
She got kind of the dead. She got the dud.
But she kind of assigned herself the dud, right? Because she's the dud between the three of them. Yes, in this context.
And she's hating to be the dud. Yes.
Kate does not consider herself a dud. No.
You know, she's like, I'm prettier than Laurie. Why do I have a flag? Yeah, exactly right.
But there's like a great satisfaction for Laurie and Jacqueline. I feel like I got like, I a tear watch in the party scene watching those girls dance.
Really? I'm really feeling it for them. So Belinda has her lovely romantic moment.
I love that for her. Yeah.
I really felt so happy. She's having her quiet courtship with Pornshy.
Yeah. She's like, do you guys have consent in Thailand? But just so you know, I so you know, this is consent.
If that is, you guys do that here. We just started.
So there's, I may okay with, it's like, it's whatever. That's a beautifully comic scene.
Yeah, I thought it was so sweet. Performance is great.
She's like, there's a room in this bed. I know, it could be this bed, it could be that bed.
They face an external threat, the monitor lizard, and then that brings them together. The tonal tension in the show is so effective by the way that it's ratcheting up at the party, between the two different party scenes, and then every so often flashing back to the sort of quiet of the hotel and what's going on there, which is Belinda's careful sleuthing.

She suggests calling all the police.

Yeah, exactly. Let's call all the police.

And then Fabian goes into full Swiss banker mode, whatever. She's like,

someone here might be a killer. And he's like, that's none of my business.

It's bad form to talk about the guests in this way. Some people here have colorful pasts.

It's really not wise to steer anything up. Exactly.
You don't want to know who the killers are. Yeah.
The Ratliff parents and Piper are having their reduced Ratliff family dinner. Parker Posey is really giving us so much.
She's really on a lorazepam come down. She's like, you're going to be a NXIVM.
You could return with a completely different set of values. And Piper's like, that's the point.
But Piper also says that she feels that she needs to do this because she needs to understand what's going to make her happy.

Right. I mean, it is it's funny.
It's like she's articulating the explicit. It's almost like the schoolgirls version of the search, the thematic idea of the show of searching, right? She's expressing out loud in this well-articulated way what everybody else can't really figure out how to say for themselves.
Yeah, there's a lot in here about like virtue structures and ideas of pleasure and an idea of, you know, like what everyone's personal code of ethics are and how that flings them onto this kind of mad evening. But I just thought it was really funny that enlightened Piper, ostensibly the voice of the purist version of the show's thematic searching, is, I think, quite tellingly, she's saying, I want to know what's going to make me happy, not...
I mean, maybe the closest that anyone gets to saying it here is Lachlan. But what if this life is just a test, like, to see if we can become better people? No.
What? Whereas Piper is studying it in school and wants to go spend like a year at a monastery to try to even figure out what the question that Lachlan just spontaneously presented to his brother is. Listen, I admire her sort of like a student, earnest approach to learning about this other culture that is clearly going to be more meaningful to her than the world she grew up in.
Right. She understands the falsity in her parents, you know, values with a capital V.
But Piper's like, I got to go to this place for a year to even figure out what I might want to understand about myself. Whereas everybody else is at the party and they're finding out.
They're testing it in real time. Yes.
Another completely different form of its own transcendence, right, is what's happening at that party or on the dance floor. And she's doing all this work to figure it out.
She's like, what is pleasure? What is it? Sitting alone in your hotel, you're like, what is it? And then the other, everyone else is just like, well, let's try it on. Let's find out.
Well, yeah, it's like everyone is approaching this episode with like a very clear idea of what will make me happy. And they're either aligning with or totally at odds with the circumstances in which they find themselves.
One suspects that if Piper had just gone with her siblings and done some drugs and sat on the edge of the ocean and looked at the fireworks, she would feel the feeling that she seeks when she prays and feels that presence. You know what I mean? Like, it's sort of like you, I kind of, I want that for her.
I was so happy for Lori in a lot of this episode, you know, until the very end, where she is getting, you know, to hear from Valentin that she's a sexy dancer. She's whipping her hair around.
She's taking the shot. She's like, I'm the girl that takes the shots.
She's getting to feel cool and reckless and desired. Her top comes off.
Her top comes off. Like, she gets one of my favorite situations in the world, which is when you're in a pool and someone outside the pool gives you a new drink.
I'm like, wow, that's just, that's living. That, when that happens, you're living.
And it, you know, it's four in the morning or whatever. You're doing it right.
Doing it right. And yeah, Leslie Webb is in her full, like, button-up PJs, like, eh-heh-heh-heh.
You know what, guys? I think the night's over. We need our beauty sleep.
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
We're old ladies. Kate throws a wet blanket on the party.
Right. Well, as the party breaks up, Lori has a moment with Valentin, right? Like, she's kind of cuddling and they have this sort of close goodbye.
And Lori, it's coherent with her character that she's not making a move. And instead she's just in this glow of having felt desirable and she's doing her little moves.
You know, she's like doing her little moves by the pool. Second only to when Saxon, totally out of his depth, is doing like Saturday Night Feverhands at the full move party.
And I was like, not Saturday Night Feverhands at the full move party. But then Jacqueline is back in her room.
She gets a text. I actually thought, you know, my dumb ass, I was like, oh my God, Harrison finally texts back and they're going to like have FaceTime sex or something.
But it's Valentin. And she has been plotting behind Lori's back the whole time.
And the alliances are about to switch again. But maybe we have been saving the most shocking sexual revelation of all for last, which is that Lachlan asserts dominance over Saxon by making out with him, by giving him...
Oh my God, I know. Your incest, it arrived.
But it arrived in the— It was not what you were expecting. I never expected it to be Lachlan.
I mean, we knew there was going to be incest from— Something's happening. Something, you know, the psychosexual dynamics are too.
But I loved, you know, despite the impulse perhaps being toxic of asserting dominance of your sibling by sexually aggressing upon them, like they got the guy that Chelsea in particular has been feeling antagonistic to do something that will kind of horrify himself the next day. And when he takes the drug, he's like, now no one take advantage of me.
Oh, right. What did you think when that happened? The charitable view is that it's, you know, some surprise intimacy.
I don't know. I also, well, I didn't expect it.
So at the beginning when they walk into the villa and they have to decide on the bedrooms and Saxon talks about adult genitals. And you're like, ooh, the promise of incest lurks.
And I was like, yeah, no, I don't think so. Like, that's not going to happen.
And then here it did. Oh, you thought it wasn't? No, I didn't believe it.
Yeah, Lachlan is, to me, he's the winner of this episode. Yeah.
Hugely.

Hugely. We should talk, though, about the reason why I asked you, Josh, a white man, if actually you felt that you were an Asian girl on the inside, is because of Sam Rockwell's, as Frank, his monologue in the bar to Wilton Goggins.
I mean, Walton Goggins is giving his face as it shifts between like, you're kidding me. And then it goes to like, whoa, you're not kidding me.
And then by the end, in his mind, he's like, damn, everyone's got problems. You know, he's like, damn, I'm not the only one that's like, actually, you might be more fucked up than me.
Sex is a poetic act. It's a metaphor.

Metaphor for what?

Are we our forms?

Am I a middle-aged white guy on the inside, too?

Or inside?

Could I be an Asian girl?

Right.

I don't know.

This is just an astonishing sequence.

Or scene, even.

It's just one scene, and it's one conversation.

And it's this incredible monologue.

And so it's, yeah, it's like a monologue in the mode of like classic. It's like Olivier.
And like it is an incredible story that he tells and the way he tells it. And then on the look on Rick Weltengogget's face as he's assimilating this knowledge, this new story is incredible.
I also love what's funny about it is they're old friends and they haven't seen each other in a while. And there's kind of like always, you see old friends like, I wonder what's different.
Yeah. Well, the first sign is that quite a lot.
And it's like he's drinking chamomile tea. Yes.
That's the setup for like, oh, we're going to learn something. He's sober now.
Right. And you always think like, oh, yeah, okay, my friend got sober.
I know what that story is. Nope.
No. Don't know what that story is.
And Frank is still enough in the life or whatever it is that he can be a fixer. He can be a purveyor of some whatever.
We don't know what he gives Rick exactly, right? I mean, we can assume, but we don't know at all. And I was wondering if and when and probably when this show was going to deal, because it's kind of obliquely dealt with this, you know, the subtext of setting the show in Thailand, which I mean, it is like a place of profound sexual exploitation by Westerners, you know, whatever.
And it was like, how are we going to get that square in the face at some point? Because it feels like we have to and we will. And we did in the wildest way where Sam Rockwell starts talking in the mode of all of the other guys that we've met in the show, which is just like, yeah, like, I like Asian girls.
So I came here and I'm here to fuck Asian girls. And then this crew turns about seven more times all the way around.
The delivery of it is amazing. Like, how would we even describe the way he delivers it? It's not deadpan.
It's almost like there is definitely some connection to the way that people who are sober in Al-Anon or whatever it is are accustomed to delivering. Oh, right.
He's sharing. He's sharing.
He's accustomed to, you know, absolutely bonkers years-long periods of people's life being boiled down to 45 seconds and delivered with a completely straight-facing, unlinking eye contact. And he's doing it here.
He's also, I mean, his delivery is very matter-of-fact, right? And he's telling him the story,

but he's also so self-assured of where he is and who he is that he

betrays no trace of

fear about telling his friend

what he tells him,

which is, like, such

a funny way to invert

what his, like, your Asian fetish

turns out to be different.

Right? He starts like, oh, I have an Asian

fetish. That fetish turns out

to be something else entirely. Right.
It turns out

Thank you. his, like your Asian fetish.
Yeah. This turns out to be different.
Yeah. Right? He says, he starts like, oh, I have an Asian fetish.

That fetish turns out to be something else entirely.

Right.

It turns out that I need to put on lingerie and perfume and pretend I am an Asian girl and also I have to pay an Asian girl to sit in the corner of the room and stare at us.

To be like another facet of my sort of projected self.

Right.

This is what I thought was just astonishing about this because it's like, Frank is like blowing Rick's mind, right? He's sitting there kind of like with his doers like, oh, wow. And it's not even like what did I get myself into? He is just accepting this new information about his friend.
And it's like this incredible monologue about his kink, which turns out to actually be this profound idea about decoupling your identity, right? Which is what the show is about. Right.
The identity is a prison. Actually, Frank has found out – Frank has a very particular angle on the idea of identity being a prison.
Yes, right. And he's found a very particular solution.
And it is one that – it's like, oh, this man has more access to the deepest, darkest, truest parts of himself. Right.
But also you can't look at Frank and say, oh, this man has more access to the deepest, darkest, truest parts of himself. Right.
You know, but also you can't look at Frank and say, oh, he's enlightened. You know, it's like he's still giving like every other person is an instrument to me.
Right. Like it's like the way that he conceives of this profound truth of his sexual identity is only reached through blunt force, mass scale instrumentalization of other people's identities and bodies.
So it's like he's transcended and yet he's deeper in the shit than anyone else too. It's embedded in a context that requires some external factors.
It's not completely internal, even though it is about his identity and actually coming to some self-realization, I think, that the others have not had, right? There is something going on where, I mean, he says, oh, wow, well, sex is a poetic act. It's like he uses carnality as a mode of seeking.
And so it's like trying to discover the infinite by getting close to death via sex while not being yourself and trying to understand yourself through other people and all this. I was like, this is a new idea.
I had not thought of this before. And I was sure as fuck not prepared for Frank, the guy who's going to help get our guy Rick a gun to deliver this new idea.
Yeah. Yeah, and there's a way in which it's this very funny perversion of this Buddhist idea of reincarnation and different souls and different bodies and that in a past life we could have been this other thing.
Right, it's true. And also just the egolessness in the throes of like pure sexual reverie, right? So that's another kind of way to try to get towards this glimpse the absolute, right? Right.
Which like Piper's seeking one way. They're seeking a different way over at the full moon party.
And then Frank blows the door off the hinges with his way. The episode ends on Tim Ratliff with the gun.
He's been trying to get the gun back the whole time. And he's writing a suicide note and he's going to kill himself, but he's interrupted by his wife.
And so then he reveals a little bit, obliquely here's what's wrong is all the expectations. Do you know what I've been exposed to ever since I was a kid? And then again, like the identity is a prison.
Those expectations are what made him into the person that he is that did the favor for the $10 million to be a pillar of the community, to be in the country club, to have the beautiful family where everybody can go to Duke. And then now the agony he must be in to not be able to explain what this is.

He's so good this episode.

The shift from swaggering business dad to broken sack of Play-Doh.

Sorry, sorry.

It's not, I'm sorry.

It's just stress.

We had learned earlier in the episode that he was an altar boy. He prays for deliverance.
Right. He actually humbles himself for the first time in this entire plot arc.
Like every other tactic that he has taken is one of evasion or confrontation. and here he prostrates himself existentially and it's like, I can't find my way out on my own.
And it's like, can he be saved is the question. Right.
This being the mid point of the show, it's the point at which all the characters have accepted where they are and they're also making choices and like crossing the Rubicon, right? So there is some kind of built-in sense of like they're all now making these choices, and how is it going to play out for the rest of the season? Right. It's like everyone has come in with a very fixed, verbalized, clear idea of who they are and what they are about and what value system they abide by.
And these things have all been externalized in conversation. And we have watched these characters say who they are and what they believe in.
You know, the girls through gossiping, the rat loves through this overt conversation, Chelsea and Rick through their interaction with each other. And now this has all been tested in various ways.
Even Chelsea's commitment to love and connection and this eternally recurring partnership she believes she has. All of these things are tested and the question for me is like, which characters will end the season with this thing that has been exposed just instantly recovered with the exact same facade that was there before and which are going to stay cracked open.
Right, right, right. Who will be transformed, basically.
Yeah, and I think that this season is opening up to that possibility of transformation more

so than other ones, like inherently because of the themes that are emerging.

And it's dangling the possibility of actual transformation.

I mean, even in the conversations that Rick is having with the therapist, right?

Like there's a who will be converted to something else and who will not. And I don't know.
Yeah. And it's also interesting.
It is kind of like a meta. The show is making a commentary, which is travel in the modern age.
It's about sort of vacation and like pina coladas, right? It's about reading your summer read and your Mai Tai.

Whereas travel before, I don't know, the 19th century was dangerous or magical, right?

All the mythical stories are like, you're going to go somewhere.

Acquire knowledge.

Yeah, acquire knowledge, learn something about yourself, be transformed, or die in glory or whatever.

That's not what travel is about anymore.

And so what it's saying is like,

maybe it is, right? Maybe you will go to a foreign place and discover something exotic,

not in the colonial sense, but outside of yourself and come back a different person,

if you come back at all, because of course, somebody is not going to make it back.

And now we'll be speaking to Carrie Coon. Welcome, Carrie Coon, to the official White Lotus Season 3 podcast.
It's so exciting. We get to do all these companion things now to TV shows.
It's not just a TV show anymore. It's a podcast.
It's a content suite. Yes.
Okay, so the dynamic between the three girlies is longstanding. They've been friends forever.
How conscious is Lori of the power dynamic between them? And how does she think about it sort of coming into the vacation? Oh, it's just like any, I mean, old friends are like family. So as soon as you're reunited, you default to your position in the dynamic, don't you?

And I think what Lori is starting to question, what it's forced into relief is Lori's own choices about her life.

You know, she's, there's always the presumption that other people are judging you, even if they're not actually thinking about you.

But Lori, I think, feels that they must all be judging and thinking about her. And she's not feeling great about her life right now.
And in this case, though, she's correct, right? As she finds out at the end of, you know, it's like not just you think it, but she sees them gossiping about her. And that's when she has that great moment at the end of the first episode.
Right. But she's also participating in that system, right? As soon as somebody walks away, we're talking about them.
And of course, she has the weird pressure of having a famous friend, which is a strange... When you've known someone your whole life, and then suddenly they're catapulted into the public eye, you sort of start to observe them as an outsider in a way.
So she has that relationship, of course, with Jacqueline. And then her other friend is pulling away from her ideologically, I would say, which is its own kind of shock for her.
And I think she feels righteous in her positions, you know, having the wrestling with what she's wrestling with at home. And she's not really been open with her friends about how hard it's been for her in her personal life, because she's pretending everything's fine, which we all are doing.
We were sort of intrigued as we were watching the show how the sort of each two sets of the women get the chance to talk to each other. Yes.
And so it seems fairly... That's super relatable, I think.
Yes. Oh, yeah.
And so, and sort of, and she was like, oh, yeah, sure, every woman is going to be able to recognize themselves and their sets of friends in this. So we were wondering, did you know a Jacqueline in high school? I am the Jacqueline from high school.
I mean, honestly, right? I'm the person from my high school who's now living in the public eye, right? And so what I've received, you know, my life is living. I don't get recognized on the street or anything.
So I'm not living that life. It's all happening on the internet.
But the thing that I've actually been conscious of is that the people from my childhood are actually quite warm and loving. You know, they'll reach out on Facebook and sort of celebrate my success because I think everybody feels a little hometown pride, right? If you come from a small town like I come from, when somebody gets out and is sort of doing well, there's something there to celebrate and you feel like you're participating in something positive.
I have not received a lot of negative energy. And maybe it's because I'm from the Midwest and people aren't, you know, as jaded as they would be like from New York when everybody went to Juilliard and only one of you got out, you know? So I don't have that sort of thing.
So, I mean, so I guess I'm Jacqueline, right? But if you're not, you know, sniping people's love interests on vacation, then you're not really, you know? Yeah, right. Which I also, you know, did.
Yeah. No, I was definitely not a good friend for a long time.
I didn't understand female friendship until really late in my life. And so in some ways, this storyline is pretty far from me because I actually found friendship with women very challenging when I was a young woman just because of the way that I was taught.
I just didn't have a relationship to what female friendship was. And so in some ways, that was the most underexplored part for me in jumping into this friendship with these women because I don't actually have a lot of old friends from my past like that.
I don't have these holdover relationships in the same way. I think what the dynamic shows, though, that even in the most natural, longstanding, old, you know, long-founded relationships, it's still complicated.
Like, it's still, there's still knives in there. And wherever you go, there you are.
I mean, the point that Lori is making is how little they've actually changed in so many ways. And also because, you know, ostensibly because they're the same age, they're supposed to be occupying similar positions in their life in terms of their home lives or their success.
And so inevitably you start to compare yourself. That's the world we're living in.
And when those women are gossiping about each other, it's all about insecurity and it's all about justifying the choices they've made and making them feel better about themselves, about where they are, you know, finding something to cherry pick that they've done better. It's just human nature.
It's the curse. It's the curse of being a human being, you know.
It's just, you can go to Thailand, but like all your stuff is there with you and you're carrying it and unpacking it all the time. Your character is the one at the beginning who says, oh, we're all mirrors of each other.
And we all, like when we were kids, we all saw each other and ourselves. But as you get older, that becomes the mirror mirror on the wall who's the fairest of them all, right? Right, exactly.
And it's a dangerous mirror to look at. It sure is.
And, you know, Laurie struggling with her, we think some alcoholism, right? She's looking a little old and a little inspired. They're like, your doctor is not as good as our doctor.
Exactly. And I think she's, you know, she's not doing work.
And she's, we also made the choice, Rebecca Hickey and I and Michelle, my other makeup artist, we decided that Lori would also have the wrong nail color. So like Lori's stuff is intentionally just a little bit off.
Yeah. Right? She didn't have time to go shopping.
Her hats are a little off. She didn't pack very well.
She's a New Yorker. She doesn't spend a lot of time in the resort life.
So she's like, it's not quite right. And she feels it.
She feels how it's just not quite right. She feels like the odd man out.
I have a question for you. Playing Bertha and then playing Lori and also being the Jacqueline of your high school friend group, I wonder if you could talk about, you know, playing the alpha, being an alpha, and then the fun, the particular fun, and the nuance of playing a character like Laurie that's at the bottom of the pecking order.
Oh, that's so interesting. You know, I'm a middle child.
I'm a middle child of five. And so I've always been a linchpin, a harmonizer.
I don't feel myself as an alpha. Now, that's not true.
I can't be entirely objective about my way in the world because I was also captain of my soccer team and class president. So clearly I am an alpha and would express myself very forcefully, but that's not the way I saw myself.
And so for me, playing somebody like Bertha feels far from me. I'm like, No I'm like, no, no, I'm the, I'm the, you know, the harmonizer.
I'm the, I'm the person who's bringing balance to these relationships. I'm not dominating.
But that's not the way I occur to other people, I think. And so, so it's an interesting act of like, oh, actually, I have to sort of be willing to recognize and embrace these parts of myself that I don't actually see.
That's not, that's not how I see myself. It's not part of my self-concept.
But it's really fun to lean into. In that regard, Lori actually feels much closer to who I am.
I feel that in my life, I always felt like, for whatever reason, the way I grew up and being in the middle, I've always felt like a little bit left out. I always felt like left out waiting to happen.
And even as feeling like an interloper in Hollywood, you know, I come from a small town in Ohio and I always felt like everybody knew things I didn't know on a set, in fashion, like every space I go in, I'm at a deficit. I'm operating with some deficit and I'm pretending, right? That's the imposter syndrome, kind of classic.
And I think for me, that part of Lori, I feel such tenderness for her. And I, like I say, because I struggled in my life with female friendship because of the way I grew up, I feel like I just feel so much love for her.
Whereas Bertha always feels like I'm kind of putting on something, but it's something really delicious to put on. And to be asked to walk into a room with that kind of confidence was very instructive to me as a woman coming up in this industry.
Like, putting that skin on is actually really, it teaches you something about walking into any room as the person that you are. I will say, I personally was disappointed that Lori did not take home Valentin.
Or Valentin plus one of the other guys. Yeah, right.
Exactly, right, exactly. Should I slip into all of them? Yeah, should we just go for both? Yeah.
Yeah, she kind of doesn't go far enough, does she? But she's really having a good time. I'm glad to see that she has that moment before, you know, we go full White Lotus in the end of the season.
I will also say that that was the first day on set for all those guys. The pool scene was their first day.
Now, Valentin had been with us. You know, Arnas had been with us.
But the two gentlemen who popped in, they just, they hadn't actually, so they just kind of came in guns blazing. And they were so much fun.
We had such a great time in the pool that night. So I want to give them a lot of credit.
They're both very accomplished actors in their own countries. But that was like their first day was to have to like jump into a pool naked in a show that had been already running for several months.
So I have to give those actors so much credit. They were so playful and so much fun, and they made that a lot easier.
But I do love that Mike gives Laurie this real moment where she gets to embrace the nostalgia, right? She does feel like finally the girl's trip she wanted is happening before things start to fall apart. And yeah, I was disappointed for her too.
She didn't get to- And she has that little triumphant walk when they leave. Yes, a tribute to my mother, a little dance tribute to my mom.
It's just a little off rhythmically. But yeah, it was such a fun night.
It's really a, it's a hoot. And it's very White Lotus, right, to kind of be that irreverent and hedonistic.
Yeah. Thank you so much for talking to us.
Thank you so much. Good to see you.
Of course she's the Jacqueline. Right.
I was a little surprised. She was right away.
But then she was like, I'm the nice Jacqueline. Yeah, exactly.
I'm not the Jacqueline you see on screen, but I am the Jacqueline in the environment of my small town setting.

Yeah. And now we're going to talk to Parker Posey.

There is no thesis.

There's no thesis?

We're here to check out this meditation center because I'm going to live there for at least the next year.

You want to live in Taiwan? Welcome, Parker Posey, to the official White Lotus Season 3 podcast. Thank you.
Nice to have you. Thank you.
Nice to be here. We're really excited to talk to you.
And my number one question is, does Victoria Ratliff know that she's in Thailand? I think it sounds familiar to her. Yeah.
Somewhere around. She could be reminded about it, you know.
Oh, okay. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah, she, imagine that person who doesn't know where they're going, you know, landing there.
But she's had the help of her pills, and she's very strong-willed, you know. She wants to be close to her family, which is just staying in her room, getting some massage, going back to the room, ordering in, and being as cozy as she can be with her perfect family.
Yeah. I was wondering, was there, you know, thinking about how Jennifer Coolidge had sort of done some improv in the first couple of seasons, was there room for improv with Victoria, the sort of scratch my arm moment, you know? Oh, right, yeah.
You know, Mike White is like, he's an actor too, you know? He's an actor, he's a very strong writer, and on set he felt like an acting buddy and a lot of the actors talked about this where he kind of takes over, he takes what you're giving him and he'll mirror it back to you and then play a little as the camera's rolling and yeah just add whatever. So that was fun to be able to create and to work like that.
I have no idea what's in what has been edited or what has been used because I haven't seen it. And I don't like to watch myself, but I've heard that I could trust Mike.
And it's just like a crazy quilt, right? Like this is how he works. He gets a lot of material.
And and then in the editing it becomes the white lotus thing that it's supposed to be. So it was a really fun way to work and it was like an extreme sport actually.
It was kind of improvisational but also very, you know, it was extreme. We traveled a lot, right? But we also got to play.
And I was so blown away just to be in another country like Thailand. I'd never been to Asia.
At this point in the show, the sort of chickens are coming home to ruse for Tim, this bad deal with Kenny, and it's not yet clear to Victoria. But he's obviously acting different, and sort of the family is under threat.
But the whole time, Victoria's saying, talking about the family's values. We have these good values, and those people with the boat, do they have good values? And so we were wondering, thinking about that, is Victoria's recitation always of what our families are, is that that like a true belief or almost like a spell trying to like to ward off what she knows is actually a rot underneath the families? I feel like she's living in a man's world in these conditions that are so opposed to her as a woman.
Like men and women are so different. Like, this is a dopamine-dominated family of achieving and being something that's really important, but it's not authentic.
And I think she's really kind of, she's so distorted in how she's looking at her family. She's doesn't, she's a fragmented person, spoiled, rotten.
I think she came from a lot of money and was allowed to create the reality around her. But I don't think it's hers.
That's a great question. I think Southern women, the archetypal Tennessee Williams think, you know, Southern women, the archetypal, like, Tennessee Williams character, you know, for me, I thought a lot about that kind of stuff and as a performer being able to finally do something like that, which I love.
But this, you know, Maggie the cat, you know, like a cat on a hot tin roof and just like this passion and this like it's so human and it's so female and the southern drama of you know being able to live with your feelings and your needs and your passion is just so great for TV it's great when you travel around the world and people go, where are you from? And you say America, and they come up with that southern accent. People love to imitate it.
And so these Mike White's shows in The White Lotus are a lot like the Christopher Guest movies. And our time right now is very memeable.
It's like it's not just a show. It's part of the zeitgeist.
And it's that kind of show that people will bring into their homes and then they get to kind of live through these parts. My family was like that.
They loved the Chris Guest movies and it made them laugh and they get to see through the characters that Mike has created, people that we've seen in real life that we kind of go like, oh my God, I can't believe that person's like that yet. I've seen that person.
I've seen that person, I know this person. So there's a real, there's a glee in this world.
But I think she's, Victoria, I think she's drowning in a lot of ways. But she looks at her son and she sees her father.
So she's choosing these ways to look at her reality and her world. And there's a lot of power in that.
I don't think it's been the best for her kids that she indulges herself in such a narcissistic way. But I loved being able to portray that, you know.
So that was really, that was really fun. Yeah, there is kind of a grandeur in the way she's doing it.
And I'm from Texas, so I... You know.
I know. I know so well.
I was like, oh, I've met a version of this family. I've been at their lake house getting kind of vaguely yelled at by the dad about my internship or lack thereof, right? But it's...
And you're like, I'm not your daughter. Yeah, yeah.
But it's sort of also like the drama of the repression. I mean, there's so much power in that too.
And when will it break through? And I was wondering, I mean, do you, as you played Victoria as things escalate, to what extent does she know, especially as perhaps the lorazepam begins to run out and perhaps, you know, what she might overhear late at night becomes a bit clearer. You know, how, how did you understand that as you were doing it? I love denial.
Denial is very real, darling. And I think that's what it is, is like, I know it no I don't I denied it I denied it

right so

what

I denied it. I denied it.
Right, so when she's asking, is there something, she's like... Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's an alliance. I think he has a lot on his plate in having to protect a woman like Victoria.
I think the stakes of making her such a mess and someone that you think needs a lot of help and can't exist without him, which I know he believes. But then we're like, no, this woman, the woman behind the man, right? And she's the one with the force.
So it was really fun to play those shades in a couple and in a family. We were wondering that from the beginning.
Yeah, I had a hint of a sense like at the very end of the first episode, the Ratliff's are in their villa and they're talking and they're sort of cataloging like what we've done and what we have. And Victoria's saying, you built all this.
And I was like, is there a Lady Macbeth vibe where there's a's a forceful woman back there. Exactly yeah I always want to bring theater into my work and and those those tropes of drama and so Mike what he's done is he's kind of like a playwright in this way of I don't know of anyone else who's been able to be so theatrical and classic in this Chekhovian way and this high drama, whodunit.
We all love a mystery. We all love an archetype of someone that we've seen before come to life.
So he brings a lot of humor to that and a lot of joy to that. I mean, the jokes were so good.
He gave me such, she has such great lines. She has incredible lines.
I was screaming laughing. Our collective meme has been like, we flew over the North Pole.
But like those kinds of people that are like, where did you go today? And then they say something completely, you know, completely different. Okay, so we asked Jason Isaacs this question, and I feel that we must ask you, who is Victoria's favorite child? Patrick.
Oh, we guessed wrong. I thought it would be Lockie.
What did you think? I think that's what I would have guessed too. I think, Patrick, I think Llan carries her sensitivity and her shadow in a way.
And that she's very tender with him and knows his sensitivity. But he reminds her of her own because she's such a narcissist.
Her own vulnerability. I think she's like, I think she probably.
Saxon has more armor. I think she protects him intensely in her heart, you know.
And with all our kids. Piper is her father's daughter.
She is going to be fine, you know. But the boys are a bit more untethered or like a little wild.
but's something to you know I think Saxon's bravado that just reminds her of her granddaddy you know just that kind of thing so when she sees him she's just looking at him going that's my grandfather my God, it's like Bubby all over him.

You know, just this like joy. And there's so, I think she's got a lot of heart.
You know, I think there's a lot of love there and passion. It's really, it was really fun to play.
All right, well, thanks for joining us. Thank you guys.
Thank you so much.

I love how she's giving sort of stage diva,

you know, like the cat on a hot tin roof moment she gave us.

It was really good.

I know.

Well, she's like, you know,

luxuriating in her blossomy blouse for a while.

Yeah, that was fun.

I didn't realize that she, that is her accent.

Yeah, it is.

I think she grew up in the South.

Yeah.

Spectacular guests this episode, if I must say so myself.

And we'll see you guys for the next one. The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media.
This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Behrman.

Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Piccillo, and A'll see you next time.
The official White Lotus podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie & Fitch. Every five-star getaway needs a five-star wardrobe, preferably without the drama.
Abercrombie & Fitch's long weekend collection has you covered. Discover versatile Miele dresses, classic skirts, and the refined A&F Collins suit, easily styled for dressier laid-back looks.
Perfect for any moment on your itinerary. Your vacation starts now.

Use Lotus 15 to get an extra 15% off almost everything at checkout.

Code valid in the U.S. and Canada through April 13th.

Exclusions apply.

See site for details.

Pack wisely with Abercrombie & Fitch.