Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries

The official White Lotus podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie & Fitch. Every five-star getaway needs a five-star wardrobe, preferably without the drama.
Abercrombie & Fitch's long weekend collection has you covered. Discover versatile Mila dresses, classic skirts, and the refined A&F Collins suit, easily styled for dressier laid-back looks.
Perfect for any moment on your itinerary. Your vacation starts now.
Use Lotus 15 to get an extra 15% off almost everything at checkout. Code valid in the U.S.
and Canada through April 13th. Exclusions apply.
See site for details. Pack wisely with Abercrombie & Fitch.
Big time movie director, huh? Well.

What have you directed, may I ask?

Uh, what haven't I directed?

You know what I mean? Mostly action films.

The Enforcer.

The Executor.

The Notary.

That was a trilogy. Hello and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three.

I'm Gia Tolentino.

And I'm Josh Behrman.

And later in this episode, we'll be talking to John Grice.

My question for you, Josh, is in Sam Rockwell's imaginary film trilogy, which we hear about. It's the, hold on, it's the, help me.
The enforcer. The enforcer.
And then the executor. He says it the executor, but I was confused because I thought he was going to say executioner.
Right. But if it's like a will, aren't you like the executor? Right.
Well, then when it gets into the notary, we're like, maybe it was an executor. It was an executor, actually.
Yeah, the sequel is the executor of the will of whoever was enforced. Yes, and then the notary has to come and sign it.
Has to come and make sure. Yeah.
I feel like in the plot of the notary, I'm assuming that what happens is the notary's giant, big physical book of signatures gets stolen. Oh.
And then Jason Statham has to come and get it back. Yeah, you know, it's a briefcase thing for me.
Like, it's like he folds it up in the briefcase, and then he's, like, getting on, and someone snatches it. Someone snatches it.
Some identical briefcase. It's a mix-up, or is it? Exactly.
Okay, before we get into the notarized revenge plot near murder we witnessed, we should say we're talking about episode seven. The title is Killer Instincts, and it was written and directed by Mike White.
So this is a dark episode. It's dark.
Well, it's all coming to the surface. Yeah, almost everyone has kind of like a test, like a gauntlet that they are set.
And it's like, what choice will you make? And not all of them have chosen. And also the kind of visual leitmotif that starts at the beginning and is running through the whole thing is the fight.
You see the slow motion sequence of like some kind of prayer ritual at the beginning of the fight. Violence does spiritual harm to victim and to perpetrator.
So it's transitioned from a lot of the rest of the season is the monkeys in the forest, which is either both monkey mind and also the threat of kind of they're bearing their fangs sometimes. But now here's like humans fighting and personal violence and then the voiceover, the monk, about violence.
And so then you kind of know that that's what this is going to be about. Yeah, everyone's in this really weird flux.
It really like I kept watching like throughout the episode. was like, everyone is trying to see if they're going to pass some sort of test, it feels like.
It really all comes to the surface with the ladies the most. This is where, yeah, it's most visible.
They're at dinner just, like, furiously looking at the menu. They're kind of being like, I'm fucking sick of Thai food.
Like, you can feel, they're like, when's this bottle of rosé going to get here so we can stop just avoiding eye contact with each other? And Lori sort of says what she's finally thinking. And then they all start trading kind of their real beliefs about each other.
So the masks have all come down now, right? So the mask that was being worn when they were in the first episode at dinner and talking about how they all had been one person. And it's a mirror.
They're mirrors of each other. It's a victory to our lives fucking rock.
It's a victory to our lives rock. Now it's the mask is down and the real person is there.
And those three real people actually have these long grievances with each other. I mean, you know, when you know someone long enough, you do start to see certain patterns.
Okay. And what is that pattern, Kate? And they're all correct.
Like, they're all accurate. Like, the reads are accurate.
They say to Lori, like, the thing that makes you disappointed changes, but you're always disappointed. And it's like, that's right.
Yeah. And then she says, Kate, you're a fake bitch.
Right, right, right. You're pretending your life is great.
And you're selfish and selfish and vain. Yeah, they're all that's all correct.
Yeah. There's a funny moment inway finger-pointing at the dinner where Laurie kind of throws Jacqueline under the bus by reminding,

or actually revealing the news to Kate that Jacqueline and her husband were flirting at her wedding.

Was it a big deal when she did the same thing with Dave?

With Dave?

At my wedding, she was all over Dave.

I'm sure you remember.

I was not.

That was like 15 years ago.

And then Kate's just like, what? Did that happen and kate's like i suppressed that excuse me exactly what are you talking about that that's not we suppressed that together i did like the line of dialogue where jacqueline tells laurie you always choose the short stick and then you think you got the short. Yes.
And that was— And you think you're the victim. Yeah.
And that was kind of brutal. She's saying it in a cruel way, but it's the kind of thing that the monk would also say.
Right. Like, you chose the path.
You took those steps. Why did you do that? What does that mean? But do you think Jacqueline meant it was like, you chose the thing that was going to be hard? Like, you know, like you chose the thing that was not going to be easy.
You're having to fight your way up at this firm. You know, presumably this relationship with this man was also not easy.
And then you're upset about it not being easy. Right, exactly.
That's good. That's devastating.
Right. She's like, if you made those choices, then accept them and try not.
Right. You can't feel self-righteous about choosing the path that's hard work and then feel like a victim for having had to work for your shit.
Right. She's like, quit your yapping about it.
The monk would be like, just try not to suffer if that's the choice you've made and accept it or whatever. Yeah.
And then, of course, they're sitting there and Fabian, the hotel manager, has decided that this is his big night to shine. and he sits down and sings a ballad of his own devising about— Missing cold Germany.
Yeah, exactly. Heimve.
Nostalgia for the homeland. How home may be cold and dirty, but still it is home.
He also, you know, he didn't like his life, and he fucking changed it. He was like, I'm going to get on stage.
That's right. He did it.
And no one cares because they're all busy being like, I've hated you for 30 years. That's right.
That's a good point. Fabian so far is the actual hero of the story.
Yeah. He's the one who's making a change.
He's pursuing it and it doesn't matter to anyone else. But it's interesting.
So then like Lori runs off to go to the fight. She's like, ah, fuck this.
And then winds up in a tryst with Alexei. And then he's like, I take cash out.
Yeah, exactly. My mommy.
No, it turns out to be transactional where like she's getting the authentic experience of like, okay, fine. I'm going to run to the Muay Thai fight and go home with this rando.
And then he's like, you take cash out? Sell? Venmo? PayPal? Yeah, I just need only $10,000. She's like, oh, no, has to flee out the window.
I know, and his angry, hot girlfriend is there trying to slap fight everyone. But maybe that is the authentic experience.
She had the full authentic experience of like thinking you're having an authentic experience traveling. Yeah, you really want to be at loose ends? Like, it's time to be a – Yeah, right, right.
Yeah, exactly. It's time to be crazy.
Yeah, right. Oh, but so the thing that happens with Alexi, I mean that we all know was coming but that Laurie didn't know was coming was that the jewelry that was heisted is there.
Oh, yeah. Right.
But here's my thing. Plot point.
Alexi, you got 10 grand right there. Sell the damn snake choker.
Right. Who knows? Also, that jewelry doesn't seem that expensive.
I know.

I know.

But like, I was like, Lori should have taken it back.

That's my quibble there.

It's like, Lori, put it in your bag.

Put it in your dang bag.

I liked when her drawstring pants were falling off her ass.

I know.

That was a good hustle at the door.

That was a good other woman hustle.

Yeah, yeah.

It was like perfect pants for that as well.

Like there's no, you really, it's a really PJ style Thailand band, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So then the party, there's a party over at Gary's.
Yeah. He's invited Belinda and her son Zion.
Chloe is dressed like a majorette, like a Taylor Swift heiress to our costume. I love the moment where Parker Posey's got her sort of elaborate silk scarf on and the statement necklace, and she's like, the boat people.
We're going to go talk to the boat people. I know.
I know. She's like sort of a new Tanya.
Yeah. Oh, she's a new Tanya.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, where she is her kind of like drugged out kind of daffiness is the like purposeful but kind of accidental to the story comic relief.
Yeah, she's fun at this party. She's like, well, I guess it's boat people or, you know, everything's going to shit.
My daughter is a Buddhist. I know.
She's like, I'm praying that Jesus can save her from the Buddhist. Yeah, and she's really, you know, at the party, she's like, she thinks that girl is being sex trafficked, and she's like, come to North Carolina.
She's trying to help out this woman. Are you scared of him? Yeah.
But then also at the party, there is Saxon, Chelsea, and Chloe. First, Saxon is talking to his dad and basically says, like, what's going on? Because if your life is falling apart, that means mine is because I have no identity.
I've just patterned myself after you. I put all my eggs in your basket.
Yes. Yeah.
But I loved also the look in Jason Isaac's eyes. You know, he's having the conversations like everything's good.
Everything's fine. And it's like his eyes are in the afterlife, you know, like his eyes are fully in eternal return.
Like he's he he's no longer there. Right.
And he's at peace with it. And I found that it's a good scene.
Yeah, it is. It's a good inner change.
I don't have anything else but this. I don't have any interests.
I don't have any hobbies. Okay, if I'm not a success, then I'm nothing.
Saxon goes even further and he says, I have no identity. Basically, I am.
And he's kind of saying he's an empty vessel. And so as the party's going on, he then, having revealed this to his father, is kind of wandering around with that new awareness, right? He says what Walton Goggins says to that.
They're both these empty vessels for different reasons. Like Walton feels like his cup could never be filled.
And Saxon is like, I've chosen to have no identity, basically. So then you're like, aha, what is he going to be filled with? Like, what is going to happen? Then he goes to the party, and he sits down with Chelsea and asks her, you know, why are you even with this old dude anyhow? It's a rich old guy.
And she explains, and quite meaningfully is like, He has this sadness. It really touches me.
I want to heal him. It's like we're in this yin and yang battle and I'm hope and Rick is pain and eventually one of us will win.
Which is also kind of a big theme of the whole show, right? Right. Well, but it's also because he wants to have sex with her and she has said outright, I won't fuck you because you have no soul.
And but I kind of I mean, I like their dynamic in this episode. I like how it feels.
I like how he is still reeling from the revelation of his incestuous threesome. And I mean, like they're sitting.
It's like a classic. The party's going on.
You're kind of join someone on a pool chair and you're like, what the hell are we doing here? And he's giving off this thing in this encounter where he's like he's almost ready for something to be revealed to him, right? He like sees in her the possibility of some lesson that he's become vaguely aware because of the Jason Isaac storyline that he needs some sort of lesson. And he needs something to his life other than like, I'm going to do whatever will allow me to use people for their own and my pleasure.
Like he's on the cusp of realizing that something needs to change. He understands that Chelsea perhaps holds some sort of insider tool, whether it is directly sexual through an encounter with her body or if it's just actually whatever she thinks in her mind.
They are sitting on these pool chairs and he's about to receive this wisdom. And then she explains it's a battle between hope and pain.
And he's just like, you're never going to fuck me. And the window kind of closes.
It opens again later in the episode. But it's like he's, in this episode, he's almost realizing he needs something and then he can't tolerate what that would actually mean.
He's following her around being like, am I going to learn something? Do I actually want to? But he kind of doesn't. And then also, by the way, while they're sitting there, he's watching from afar and his dad is over there like all sloppy drunk in his kind of spiral.
And he's seeing that there's something wrong there. And that's also, I think, pushing him internally to be like, am I open to the message of this woman here who I completely dismissed? There's something beyond the immediate surface.
Yes. Right.
Yeah, exactly. He's like finally like ready to dig a little bit.

Well, Chloe shows up and invites him into their sexual scenario.

He wouldn't even touch you.

He just wants to creep up on us.

And at some point I'll leave you and I'll go to Gary.

And it would be like he's winning his mother back from his father.

Yeah.

Like a little boy's dream.

So Saxon gets one offer for one kind of identity for the night, which is Chloe's like, well, it turns out, I'm going to explain for two minutes Gary's elaborate parental cuck fantasy. Yeah.
I liked the Oedipal personal psychological variant on being cuckolded like that was an interesting kind of

he wants to be cucked by his dad

from his mom

the one thing I don't buy here is that Saxon wouldn't

have immediately understood what Chloe was

asking him to do he'd be like I've seen

1000 videos in this category

before you know what I mean

he's just so vanilla that he like has never really

thought about no it's not possible it's exposure to

porn it's not possible I did think when he was like yeah

I've had threesomes like with two girls

So, this category before. You know what I mean? Or it could be like he's just so vanilla that he like has never really thought about no it's not possible and it's exposure to porn it's not possible.
I did think when he was like yeah I've had threesomes like with two girls and I was like maybe you haven't actually like he's kind of giving maybe he hasn't and just says he has. And there's kind of a symmetry to the fact that Saxon and Lachlan both fucked Chloe with each other the episode before.
And now they are lost and confused Saxon more aggressively, but Lachlan is no longer in the sort of like morning after reflexive triumphalism that he was last time we saw him. And they are both looking to girls, you know, Chelsea and Piper respectively to be like, okay, teach me your belief system.
I'll do it. I can't fuck my brother anymore.
Right. The radio is tuned.
We're ready to receive the transmission. There's kind of a flowers in the attic moment with Lachlan and Piper.
You know, like they're on the bed and they're having this sort of, and he's like, I want to be here with you. I know.
Actually. I know.
That was like, it's like almost like a candlelit scene. She's in her little white nightgown, Wendy.
She's in her like cap sleeve, kind of like prairie dress again. She looks like Kelly McGillis in Witness when they're like in the barn together.
And yeah, and then he's like, what if I just stayed here with you? And then she freaks out and leaves. Like she takes her hand off of his leg and is like, I'm going back to my room.
She's like, maybe I've pushed this too far. Like what do you think is her fear there? Why does she recoil? Well, she wanted to go.
She wanted to leave her family.

She wanted to be utterly decontextualized and discover who she is outside of Lachlan. And now she's like, get your own damn identity, Lachlan.
You know, go make your college choice. Don't come here with me.
Right. Right.
It's interesting that, like, Saxon is so certain of who he is, right, and is telling Lachlan, you could be looked just like me, basically. and then Saxon is even more destabilized now and is seeking his identity

which we see when he and Chelsea are walking home and they go back to her room and they're sitting on the bed and it's a quiet scene but then I didn't even quite catch until almost it was over that basically he says I'm ready I'm now willing like what what Rick can't do which is like receive. Now Saxon is sitting there saying like, I'm ready.
I'm here for you. I will take your message.
And then she freaks out because she's like, oh, this could go the wrong way. So you get the idea.
Yeah. What, that's it? You can't become soulful in 10 minutes.
It takes time. Well, he does.
It's like his posture when he's following behind her. He's kind of, his shoulders are a little down.
He says something that he probably has never said before, which is like, I could be someone else. Like, I could be, there could be more to me than this.
Like, he sees a sort of forking, and then he gets cross-legged on the bed, and he's trying to receive what it is to meditate, But then he's like, but are we going to fuck?

And Chelsea's like, oh, no, are we going to fuck?

And then she panics.

And she's like, I kind of want to.

And she throws all these books at him and hides in the corner.

And then he takes the message and leaves.

Like, he doesn't press it.

But they almost fuck.

Right.

He's like, OK, I am now your pupil teacher.

And give me your lesson.

And he's like, maybe if it entails sex, great.

But also, I'll take the books.

Yeah.

You know, ostensibly the real reason that the party was thrown is that Greg can get Belinda in a room.

And she's, you know, clutching her little purse.

She's doing that.

She's got her hands on her little purse in her lap.

And he offers her, like, a quite insulting $100,000 to not report him for murder to all of the police. Yeah.
It seems like just from a pure negotiating position, he made an error. What do you mean? Well, because – Setting it too low? Yeah.
No, I think that's what you do. It's like Delta offering those people $30,000 for the flight landing upside down.
He's like, maybe I can get by basically scot-free here. He's sending a signal, and it's Belinda's job to take that and be like, I need 10 times that.
How about $5 million? Yeah. Actually, no.
Yeah, way more than 10x on that. But she's taking a moral position when she votes from the party.
She's saying no. So she's also saying, I'm going to resist this.
It's not fair. Would you take the money? Honestly, I mean, I'd ask for more, but I'd frankly take the money.

And then I'd still report him. And then what is he going to do?

Right. That's a good point.
Yeah, exactly.

Right. She's holding the cards.
Like, have you ever set up

an anonymous Gmail, Belinda? Like,

pretty easy. Come on.

Right. I wonder,

is it like Cash App or Venmo?

I know. Alexi's like,

Alexi steps in and he's like, we take Cash App, we take

Venmo, I have a finder's fee, a mere $10,000 for the repatriation of my mom or whatever. And then Mook and Gaitok, they go on their date.
It goes badly because Mook is like, I want you to be more violent because that's how you advance in this world. And they go to the Muay Thai fight and she's like, see, it's natural.
This staged fight that people are paying for, this is actually so natural. Well, it's interesting because the whole episode is set up with the monk saying violence exists in all of us, right? And that's like sort of the overture of the episode is that VO over Wong Gog Goggins and then it's kind of

playing through and then it's reinforced at the

fight which of course is this display of violence

and then it was kind of really sad

on that date right before they get to the

fight when she's like oh I thought you were more

ambitious when he's saying like basically

I'm a pacifist and I don't want to

hurt people and she's like oh

maybe we're not meant to be here. She's like oh are you a beta cuck

that wants to watch while your mom fucks your dad or something? Steals your mom back from you. Like, yeah.
And then, but at the fight, like, I mean, it kind of seeds, like, we are supposed to think that something is going to happen when he recognizes, you know, in kind of a somewhat heavy-handed flashback that, oh, these Russian guys with that girl from the hotel, they are

the ones that punched me and robbed me. Right.
And so you're supposed to think perhaps next episode he'll make a grand gesture. Right.
He's got the gun back, you know, which Jason Isaacs realizes to his dismay. Now he's fantasizing about killing his son because his son has also said, I have nothing but what you gave me.
And he's like, oh, no. I've got to put these people out of their misery.
Right.

But, you know, in this incredible prop, magician's cabinet, this filing cabinet, 45

compartments, none of which contain a gun, but Guy Togs got it.

I know. And the cabinet also is a little bit like a metaphor for, you know, depending on where the

gun is, is like, how's it going to get used, right? There's like some motivation for the

gun to get used in all these different ways with each of the characters. I feel like this episode, I mean, the real here's a test and how are you going to pass it, happens with both Rick and Frank.
Like, unexpectedly with Frank, I think, where, you know, we're 45 seconds into this encounter

at Sri Tala's house, and he's like,

I'll take a whiskey.

Right, I know.

And I'm like, no, Frank!

He hasn't, yeah, I know.

God, don't do it for this.

He's thrown off by the fact that they somehow

have not prepped their cover story at all.

Yeah.

And they get in there, and then she's like,

what movies have you seen of mine?

And what movies have I made?

I don't know, action movies. It's good scripted improv.
What kind of movie are you making here? You know what? It's a fun caper. Like a thriller.
It's got everything. Killings, double crossings, action, all the stuff that people like.
It's funny, but I was thinking, these two guys are on this, like, you know, deception operation to sneak into one of the richest men in Thailand's house and maybe kill him. Yeah, this is like a Jason Bourne movie.
You should have thought about what, you know, like, let's get an IMDB for you. Yeah, an exit strategy.
They should have had this whole thing prepped out. Like, what's even, what are we doing here? But I think that Rick doesn't know what he's doing.
Right. Like, I think that up until I mean, it's very confusing, this confrontation.
It's it's a strange one. Rick doesn't know what's going to happen here.
And and he has brought that spirit to Frank as the director who has no idea what they don't remember what each other's names are. They haven't looked at Srit Allah's IMDB.
you know I do yeah I like how I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean

I mean I mean I mean I. I like how, I mean, Frank, the minute he takes a sip of whiskey, is like restored to his like charming self.
He's got a sparkle in his eye and a wink and a smile. They're watching the VHS.
He's like, it's giving Pippin. Yeah.
It's like Peter Pan meets MC Hammer and some Pippin. And meanwhile now, Rick and Jim have gone off into the study to kind of just chat about business, but which is cover for Rick trying to figure out, like, do I need to kill my lifelong sort of nemesis in my mind? And Jim, the legendary Scott Glenn.
Seems you've had quite a life. Yeah, China has been good to me.
We were just going, it's what, Apocalypse Now, you were saying? What else? Then he's in Urban Cowboy. Oh my God, his outfit in Urban Cowboy.
Yeah, in like a crop top mesh outfit. Yeah, it's giving Bushwick.
Yeah. It's giving Pratt, Pratt student.
With a cowboy hat. Yeah.
And he's in Sounds of the Lambs. He's in A Million Things.
He's all over the place. He's in The Leftovers.
And he's in Bad Monkey. He's giving Pratt, Pratt student.
With a cowboy hat. Yeah.
And he's in Sounds of Limbs. He's in A Million Things.
He's all over the place. He's in The Leftovers.
And he's in Bad Monkey. He's the dad in Bad Monkey also.
Now he's playing like the sinister figure, but he's also so kind of frail and meek. He's old.
He's really old. He's got a cane.
But he knows something is wrong almost immediately. Like he knows once Rick calls Frank, Frank, he knows.

Like there's a look in his eye and he's like, something is up here.

But he engages Rick with it.

He's like, okay, let's take it to the den.

Like he knows something's up.

But he's used to having enough power in his whole life that he's like, fine, let's see

what this is fucking about.

It is a strange encounter because is there something, is some of the air being taken

out of the balloon by virtue of the fact that the Bette Noir, the big kind of bad guy in Rick's mind, is actually so weak and frail and doesn't have any menace? Because obviously he backs off because he's like ultimately also not a killer. The episode is called Killer Instinct.
It starts with this overture about violence. Rick realizes in the moment he's not a killer.
He pulls out his gun. But that's – He can't even hit him.
He can't even hit him. And hit him and that's because he's frail but so i was wondering like if there was some menace and he knew and in fact he encountered part of what he expected and still walked away would that be sort of a more complex test that he passed but it's i mean i think i think to me what it is it's like you confronted reality is, right? You confronted the fact that this person was a different person then.

Someone that was capable of murdering in cold blood.

Now he's probably still capable.

Scott Glenn is still capable of murdering in cold blood, but he's old.

He's frail now.

And you have power over him.

Like he had ultimate power over you for 50 years.

Now you functionally and completely physically, existentially, like this man is at the end of his life you still have chelsea waiting for you back home not fucking patrick schwarzenegger and and he's sort of like okay i mean the the test so to speak is different because of the actual reality that confronts him the moment it's not can i kill this man do i have the strength to man? But it's like, do I have the existential wherewithal to realize I don't need to? And in that way, he does. And then they fucking go off.
Oh, my God. Frank.
Right. He celebrates.
Yeah. He turns the tables.
That's a good point. It's like, this guy had power over him, and suddenly now he has the power, and perhaps that's enough to just completely dispel the illusion then I'm so I'm legitimately upset for Frank.
Sobriety is a really important thing. I know.
I know. I know.
It's going to be a tough fight back. And then they go off and party and he's immediately already got.
Oh, my God. Coke and hookers.
And then he's doing meth or whatever. Yeah.
Crack, like whatever he's doing. Right.
And he's like, let's go big. It's Bangkok one night.
And then eventually, of course, they take it to the hotel room. And Rick is just sitting on the couch kind of observing.
He's not really engaging in the way like Frank is like, OK, this is my I'm back in my in my in my old house. Yeah, exactly.
And Walton, Rick, just is kind of sitting there with a smile on his face. Right.
He's got this like slight beat smile where, like, he's at peace. Yeah, he's like, actually, I'm not going to take you up three topless girls offering me the Coke straw or whatever.
He's like, I'm actually okay. And I'm like, okay, Rick and Chelsea, are we going to make it? We're still pulling for them.
We're going to make it? I know. They're both.
They just need to be reunited. I also think they could have done whatever this night and made it back.
You know, like, I really believe in them. Oh, yeah.
Well, they're soulmates. They're soulmates.
And then she's going to follow

him to the next life and heal him there

if she has to. And I kind of wanted

Chelsea to have a selfish... I mean,

I kind of wanted her to have a little bit of

a selfish moment, you know?

But I like

that they didn't. I like that

they still kind of have a bit of a pure

thing. The battle of hope and pain.
It's like hope seems kind of to be winning here.

Right. That's true.
She has like now like their reunion is a potential pure one.

Yeah. But I'm with you.
I kind of wanted her in Saxon because also that's like this separate tiny weird little essentially rom-com.

Right. If you just isolate that story, it's like he's the devilish cat and she's the plucky heroine and she wants nothing to do with him.

And then they realize that like – They're enemies to lovers.

They're enemies to lovers.

And then like they have this moment where she could actually realize the full potential that she's not able to with Rick.

And then perhaps by so doing like that elevates her power even more and then she like brings that back to Rick.

That's exactly what I'm thinking.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. That's exactly what I'm thinking.

And what in her position I probably would have done.

Yeah, yeah.

I feel like this whole season there's been this thing going on with age where I think maybe rightfully all the characters are a little disgusted

by the old white dudes that are in Thailand,

you know, with like hot girlfriends. And, you know, there were the women.
The women are self-conscious of their age. And they're, you know, through the whole like competitive dynamic, like something that hits harder in the way they fight at the beginning of the episode is like they are set in their lives now.
Like they are, they're're not old but they are too old to choose a radically different value set and have it reset their life like they're entrenched they have children they have careers they've made their choices they have divorces they have marriages like they can't like there's this kind of fear of finality in them they're fearing that the narratives that have been in play for the last 30 years are going to be the narratives for the rest of their lives. They're seeing that it probably is true and realizing that about each other, but refusing to recognize it about themselves.
Well, I mean, the women are all at sort of like midlife crisis age. And so it's like a classic setup.
I mean, I feel like it is most beautifully demonstrated with an incredible flair when they wind up at the pool, which is full of the old people. And they're like, this is disgusting.
This is the future. It's like the old lady in the bathtub in The Shining.
You know, that's like, this is the terrible future that awaits. And so they recoil from that and go back into the self-preservation mode, which I hadn't really thought about this, that their encounter with that kind of like immutable future puts their guard back up, you know, with each other.
And I think there's also something with every character where it's sort of like, are you going to go into the rest of your life kind of honest or are you not? You know, like there's this kind of hope embedded within each of them

that they can just,

that they can work it out.

They can work out something.

And like they all kind of

want to leave here

and be like,

I'm going to straightforwardly

live the rest of my life

kind of in clarity and peace.

And they're all fighting up

against whatever barrier it is to actually doing that. Right.
I mean, in Midlife Crisis, right, the p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p- like reset your entire sense of yourself. And that's kind of the opportunity that's being put in front of many of the characters here.
Right. And that's the bigger test.
In this episode, there were like a lot of little tests. There's like these more moral ethical tests.
But then there's like sort of a bigger test for like, where am I going? Can you go into the rest of your life not hiding something? Are you going to wear the mask or not? Yeah, exactly. Are you going to go to the grave with your mask on? Yeah, and they're all wondering that.
Yeah. And we'll see.
And now we'll be talking to Gary slash Greg John Grice. All right.
Well, welcome John Grice to the season three companion podcast to White Lotus. Thank you.
Thank you so much. I mean, I just really have to immediately ask.
We need to just clear the air slash cloud the air and know, did Greg slash Gary kill Tanya? Did he orchestrate the killing of Tanya? Are we going to be working from that premise or not as we speak? Well, okay. So I'm glad you clarified with orchestrate.
I would say in a court of law, there would never be anywhere near a guilty verdict considering he was thousands of miles away. I've thought about this.
Well, yeah, of course you have to. And then you think about, you know, was it for hire? No, I, I, you know, it's interesting because when I did season two, I don't know if I should reveal this, but I was operating under the premise that I orchestrated for something to happen.
Obviously, the Italian stud gentleman who was offered into the circle to satisfy Tanya, I think could have been my doing, you know, let's get her in a compromising situation. And then it just got, it got taken too far, you know, that was how I was looking at it.
Like, well, did I really, you know, think to offer? No, I, I, I, I thought to, to really make it so that I had a, a pretty good wedge for negotiating. But I think that as I got to Thailand and I was really kind of going over my old notes, because I do write a pretty extensive history.
And of course, obviously, it's augmented each time I get a new season. I mean, I feel so blessed to be able to say that.
I'm not, I'm like the guy saying,, yeah, well, I'm you know, the next season came. I mean, for me to be there is just is a miracle, you know, but I just things weren't weren't quite gelling for me, weren't quite working that I I finally sought Mike out and we started to have a conversation.
He goes, well, you know who he is.

You know the guy, you're playing him. And I was like, yeah, I do, but I'm surprised by certain things.
You know, he goes, you got it. You know, you, you know who he is.
And then finally, I got up really early one morning and I was walking around and sure enough, there he was walking to the set. I ran up to him and I said, wait a minute.
So Greg slash Gary. You know, I've been always thinking that he didn't have quite as big a hand in this but I'm realizing, my gosh, psychopath, right? And he goes, psychopath, and walked away and that was it.
and that set me in a different pattern so to answer the question as me protecting the character i'm not going to reveal but well that kind of that uh aligns with how we have been kind of systematically second guessing gary slash greg if indeed either of those are those are his names, did he even work with the Bureau of Land Management? Was this all like an elaborate ruse to find a mark from the beginning? And has he done this throughout his life and just like made fortune, spent them, made them, spent them? Well, I couldn't anticipate what Mike was up to because that would be folly. He's always going to surprise you.
But he did write to me one evening and said, are you available? Because I'm writing something for Greg. And this was before season two.
And said to me, and he said, would you be, I just, I don't want to, if you're not available, I can't write this. And I said, no, absolutely.
Anytime, anywhere, you tell me and he said okay and by the way he's

diabolical and that was it and i was like oh okay okay i was like i was really excited about it

and immediately i looked back at season one notes and i was like no no no no no no no no i do i

I changed a lot of things.

I just,

just from that one sentence, I was like,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay,

okay, okay, okay, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I changed a lot of things.
I just, just from that one sentence, I was like, okay, now I am, because I always did reflect about, you know, this guy, is he, isn't he too good to be true? And, and that's why I was pot committed to the idea that he was indeed to die at any time.

And so his attitude was like, I'm not going to suffer anything.

I'm not going to worry about people's problems.

I'm going to live every moment in that moment.

And Tanya, yes, she cleaves to her drama.

And I'll just let that run off my back and just nod my head and smile

and say, let's have sex.

Let's drink.

Let's have fun. And that's what I feel like Greg was always pushing towards her.
Like, come on. Let's drink.
Let's eat. Let's, you know.
Because she ruminated over everything. Oh, should I? But once Mike said diabolical, you thought, oh, that was just Greg being a spectacular actor.
Yeah, I did. And he's, yeah.

It changed.

And he's laying the foundation.

And it did make me go back,

actually, now that I knew I was coming in for season two

and I went back over the notes for season one

and I read the script again

because I saved all of them.

And I said, yeah, yeah, this is understandable.

This is a mark. You never see him with his fishing buddies.
He's got these stories, right? Yeah, totally. The thing that Greg maybe did always orchestrate from the beginning in your understanding was the liaison with Italian stallion number one or whatever.
But now watching this season, it's like, was this part of the cock thing? Was this trying to... Season two, that was his kink.
That was the kink? Well, I definitely feel that that is a reality with him. I mean, there's no doubt.
And it's funny, even before I got to the scene where Charlotte kind of explains him a little bit, I had already fixated it in my brain. I was like, yeah, this guy is, he doesn't fall in love.
He doesn't have that capability. He only wishes to steal his mother back from his father as the young boy.
So it's funny. It's like that's perhaps the single truthful piece of information that we know about Greg slash Gary that he has a cook fantasy.

Oh, my God. So it's not character.
It's kink is destiny.

Yeah, exactly. It's got to be so fun to have this show of all shows take you on this journey from like, you know, man attached to nothing but pleasure, you know, trying to live out life with this beautiful kooky woman he met to like pure sociopath.
Right. And I mean, it is.
It's incredible. And yet at the same time, I also feel like there were moments where while I was playing him, I had this kind of counteractive emotion.
So sometimes he's sitting there and he looks like he wants to kill somebody, when in actuality in his mind, he's like humming a tune. It's kind of how I was thinking about him.
He has a singular sensibility. He doesn't really like people in general anyway.
He doesn't want to know their stories unless there's something that he can gain. He's no interest in anybody unless they have something that he covets.

He has a resting psychopath face.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Inside is just thinking about what he's going to eat for dinner.
I wondered at what point did you think that Greg slash Gary perceives Belinda as a worthy adversary, like a real adversary, someone that it might be difficult to get to go away?

I think that, you know, the interesting thing about Gary Gregg is that he invites the path of least resistance. He's not, he always, he has a singlemindedness, like I say, and he offers one chance, usually.
This case, he decided to back off of Plan B. Whatever Plan B may be, I'll not reveal, but I do think that he was thinking, was thinking this could be too messy and it's better to just let it go away as opposed to handle it a different way.
I like how you had your own plan B for how this could go down. You're protecting it by being euphemistic about it.
It's like maybe we get another. We get Porn Chai in there.
We get some dirt on Belinda. We take it to the White Lotus Management.
We get her out of the executive training program. There's always an opportunity if you are an opportunistic person.
There's always a boat that someone could sort of slip off. That's right.
You always have to keep your eye open. Of course, to me, when I look back at Quentin, I think, you know, listen, I see Gary Gregg as someone who did at some point work for the Bureau of Land Management.
But in his book, a drowning victim is a drowning victim. So in his mind was why, you know, Quentin was the perennial fuck up.
and why would he, why do you bring any kind of a,

you're going to put some bullet holes in somebody and drop them in the water that's murder if they're just in the water it's just an accident you know i feel like his attitude about it was like if that were the plan i'm just saying this is a hypothetical if that were the plan why would you do it the way you did it? You know, I could imagine that the argument with that he would have with Quentin going, no, no, dude, a drowning, a drowned person is a drowned person. We pull them up all the time.
We used to, we used to fish them out of the water all the time. And there's no way unless they have ligature marks or they've got a bullet in them or they've been bonked on the head.
Are they murder victims? You've really thought this through. You know, there's something.
So I was thinking that and I was also thinking perhaps you can answer a question that Josh and I had at the beginning, which was like there's a lot of sort of kind of necessary for the machinery, like tempting fate going on this season. You know, I think at the beginning we were like, why is Gary at the White Lotus? Like why is Gary trying to escape the White Lotus? It seems sloppy too.
Living just up the hill and coming down there for dinner every night. You know, but, you know, I think you can assimilate it into the performance that you give throughout the season i'm like okay he's just he's got just that much shark-like confidence he's just like i'm i'm here if you want to talk to me about this death that i had no part of i will have a conversation with you i think also i think there happens to be a bit of blinders on on here because he's in a place that he assumes that you know it's so far removed but i think also it is where the menu of opportunity is for he and his girlfriend you know totally you know so you you know she's a wonderful lure and and so the idea of of him having you know an appetite for, you know, whether or not participation or just observation, whatever it is, he has an odd proclivity.
We, of course, were over the course of the season kind of debating what is the true nature of Gary's relationship with Chloe. She then reveals late in the game at the party in this episode, the kink.
And we're like, okay, well, that's clearly some kind of bedrock. But what else is that relationship about? Is it a real relationship? What's Gary drawn to besides that? The obvious.
The obvious. She's a foxy lady.
Gorgeous. Because at that party also, a lot of the older guys and the young women, there's a whole funny bit with Professor Posey's Victoria thinking that this woman's being trafficked and she can save her.
But she's like, no, I really love him. We're in the relationship.
So where do Gary and Chloe fit in? Well, I think that, you know, Chloe, Charlotte Le Bon is so beautifully cast as far as I'm concerned because she is as operative and maneuver. She's a, you know, she's, she's, she knows the game and she doesn't suffer fools.
And you can tell this is somebody that I feel, and I felt from the minute we started working together that yes, Gary has a great deal of confidence that she will get his back within reason. Let her have some free reign, give her some rope, and understand that if you call her to action, she's there, she's in.
And I believe that he's not telling her the whole story. He's created, obviously, an acceptable narrative between the two of them.

But at the same time, you know, maybe Rick is right. Maybe she was an escort, you know, a sex worker.
Who knows? Regardless, there's an understanding between them that I think is tacit. There's something that they share that is intrinsic.
And beside the fact that she looks as good as she she does and she's smart and witty and kind of cheeky she's a she's a good partner she's a good partner yeah they're a good duo yeah i mean she's also an operator they're both operators exactly he'll keep her around because she's in lockstep with him and i think that you know you know, he loves the idea that she, uh, she went around, you know, and, and I mean, you know, I have a boat crew that's, that's operating the yacht. I mean, it's not like she was hiding from anybody because she knows they're going to report to me and say, oh, totally.
He was watching on his iPhone doing God knows what, you know? So, you, you know, there was coverage at the full moon party.

He was like, oh, Lockwood.

Okay.

Okay. I thought they were brothers.

I didn't see that one coming.

Wow.

That's a twist.

That's a twist.

All right.

You know, the crazier, the better.

This is going better than expected.

Yeah.

John, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

It's such a treat to talk to you.

Such a pleasure.

Great to see you guys.

Nice to see you.

Bye.

Well, that was fun.

Now we know.

So he murdered Tanya, but he's got legal plausible deniability.

He has a real cuck fantasy.

He's a true psychopath.

He has a resting psychopath face.

And he did work at BLM once upon a time. But I don't even believe that.
I think he was still answering his guy slash Greg. Yeah, if that's even his name.
All right, thanks to John Grice for coming on the show. And see you on the next episode.
We'll also have a bonus episode this week in which I'll be interviewing Dan Savage, author of Savage Love, host of the Savage Love cast, absolute icon to me and probably to many of you.

I'll be asking him all of my burning questions

about sex and relationships and brotherly handjobs in season three.

See you then. The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media.
This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Behrman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer.
Our associate producers are Alison Haney, Anthony Pacillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Iwin Lai Tremueng.

At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean.

For the HBO podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt,

senior producer Alison Cohen-Sorokach, and producer Kenya Reyes.

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. The official White Lotus podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie & Fitch.
Every great getaway deserves a wardrobe to match.

That's where Abercrombie & Fitch comes in.

Their long weekend collection keeps you stylish

at every event from weddings to brunch.

Featuring Miele dresses and the A&F Collins suit

in athletic or slim fit to suit any height.

For your next vacay, keep the plot twists minimal

and the style top-notch.

Pack your bags with Abercrombie & Fitch.