Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries

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Speaker 2 Big-time movie director, huh? Well,

Speaker 2 what have you directed, may I ask?

Speaker 2 What haven't I directed? You know what I mean? Mostly action films.

Speaker 2 The Enforcer,

Speaker 2 The Executor,

Speaker 2 The Notary.

Speaker 2 That was a trilogy.

Speaker 4 Hello, and welcome to the White Lotus Official Podcast Companion to Season 3. I'm Gia Talentino.

Speaker 2 And I'm Josh Fairman.

Speaker 4 And later in this episode, we'll be talking to John Christ.

Speaker 4 My question for you, Josh, is in Sam Rockwell's imaginary film trilogy, which we hear about.

Speaker 2 It's the, hold on, it's the, help me, the enforcer, the enforcer, and then the executor.

Speaker 4 He says that the executor, but I was confused because I thought he was going to say executioner. Right.
But if it's like a will, aren't you like the executor?

Speaker 2 Right. Well, then when it gets into the notary, we're like, maybe it was an executor.

Speaker 2 It was an executor actually.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the sequel is the executor of the will of whoever was enforced.

Speaker 4 Yes, and then the notary has to come and sign it.

Speaker 2 He has to come and make sure. Yeah.
I feel like in the plot of the notary, I'm assuming that what happens is the notary's giant big physical book of signatures gets stolen.

Speaker 2 Oh, and then Jason Statham has to come and get it back.

Speaker 4 You know, it's a briefcase thing for me. Like, it's like that he's he folds it up in the briefcase, and then he's like getting on, and someone snatches it.
Someone snatches it.

Speaker 2 It's an identical briefcase. It's a mix-up, or is it exactly?

Speaker 4 Okay, before we get into the notarize revenge plot, near murder we witnessed, we should say we're talking about episode seven.

Speaker 4 The title is Killer Instincts, and it was written and directed by Mike White.

Speaker 4 So this is a dark episode.

Speaker 4 It's dark.

Speaker 2 Well, it's all coming to the surface.

Speaker 4 Yeah, everyone, almost everyone has kind of like a test, like a gauntlet that they are set, and it's like, what choice will you make? And not all of them have chosen.

Speaker 2 And also, the kind of visual light motif that starts at the beginning and is running through the whole thing is the fight.

Speaker 2 You see the slow-motion sequence of like some kind of prayer ritual at the beginning of the fight. Violence does spiritual harm to victim

Speaker 2 and to perpetrator.

Speaker 2 So it's transitioned from a lot of the rest of the season is the monkeys in the forest, which is either both monkey mind and also the threat of kind of their bearing their fangs sometimes.

Speaker 2 But now here's like

Speaker 2 humans fighting and personal violence and and then the voice over the monk about violence and so then you kind of know that that's what this is going to be about.

Speaker 4 Yeah, everyone's in this really weird flux. It really, like, I kept watching, like throughout the episode, I was like, everyone

Speaker 4 is trying to see if they're going to pass some sort of test, it feels like.

Speaker 4 It really all comes to the surface with the ladies the most.

Speaker 2 That's like where, yeah, they're all

Speaker 4 at dinner just like furiously looking at the menu. They're kind of being like, I'm fucking sick of Thai food.
Like you can feel they're like, when's this bottle of rose going to get here?

Speaker 4 So we have, we can stop just avoiding eye contact with each other.

Speaker 2 And Lori sort of says what she's finally thinking, and then they all start trading kind of

Speaker 2 their real beliefs about each other. So the masks have all come down now, right?

Speaker 2 So the mask that was being worn when they were in the first episode at dinner and talking about how they all had been one person and it's a mirror. They're mirrors of each other.

Speaker 2 It's a victory to our lives fucking rock. Victory to our lives rock.
Now it's the mask is down and the real person is there.

Speaker 2 And those three real people actually have these long grievances with each other. I mean, you know, when you know someone long enough, you do start to see certain patterns.

Speaker 2 Okay, and what is that pattern, Kate?

Speaker 4 And they're all correct. Like,

Speaker 4 they're all accurate. Like, the reads are accurate.
They say to Lori, like, the thing that makes you disappointed changes, but you're always disappointed. And it's like, that's right.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And then she says, Kate, you're a fake bitch.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 Right. Right.
You're pretending your life is great and you're selfish and selfish and vain. And it's like, yeah, they're all correct.

Speaker 2 There's a funny moment in the three-way finger pointing at the dinner where Lori kind of throws Jaclyn under the bus by reminding, or actually revealing the news to Kate that Jacqueline and her husband were flirting at her wedding.

Speaker 2 Was it a big deal when she did the same thing with Dave?

Speaker 4 With Dave?

Speaker 2 At my wedding, she was all over Dave. I'm sure you remember.
I was not, and that was like 15 years ago. And then Kate's just like, what? Did that happen?

Speaker 4 And Kate's like, I suppressed that.

Speaker 2 Excuse me. Exactly.
What are you talking about?

Speaker 4 That's not, we suppressed that together.

Speaker 4 I did like the line of dialogue where Jacqueline tells Lori, you always choose the short stick, and then you think you got the short stick. Oh, right.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 4 And that.

Speaker 2 And then you think you're the victim.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And that was kind of brutal.

Speaker 2 She's saying it in a cruel way, but it's the kind of thing that the monk would also say. Right.
Like, you chose the path. You took those steps.
Why did you do that? What does that mean?

Speaker 4 But do you think Jacqueline meant it was like you chose the thing that was going to be hard? Like, like, you know, like you chose the thing that was not going to be easy.

Speaker 4 You're having to fight your way up at this firm. You know, presumably this relationship with this man was also not easy.
And then you're upset.

Speaker 2 And you're upset about it.

Speaker 4 About it not being easy. It was.

Speaker 2 Right, exactly.

Speaker 4 That's good. That's devastating.

Speaker 2 Right. She's like, if you, if you've made those choices, then accept them and try not to.
Right.

Speaker 4 You can't feel self-righteous about choosing the path that's hard work and then feel like a victim for having had to work for your shit.

Speaker 2 Right. She's like, quit your yapping about it.
The monk would be like, just try not to suffer if that's the choice you've made and accept it or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then, of course, they're sitting there and Fabian, the hotel manager, has decided that this is his big night to shine.

Speaker 2 And he sits down and sings a ballad of his own devising about missing cold shoes. Yeah, exactly.
Heimwe.

Speaker 2 Nostalgia for the homeland.

Speaker 2 How home may be cold and

Speaker 2 dirty,

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 still it is home.

Speaker 4 He also, you know, he didn't like his life and he fucking changed it. He was like, I'm going to get on stage.

Speaker 4 And no one cares because they're all busy being like, I've hated you for 30 years.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 2 That's a good point. Fabian so far is the actual hero of the story.

Speaker 4 Yeah, he's the one who's making a change. He's pursuing it and he's, and it doesn't matter to anyone else.

Speaker 5 But it's interesting.

Speaker 2 So then, like, Lori runs off to go to the fight. She's like, ah, fuck this.
And then winds up in a tryst with Alexi.

Speaker 4 And then he's like, I have, I take cash up.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. And then, oh no, it turns out to be transactional where like she's getting the authentic experience of like, okay, fine.

Speaker 2 I'm going to run to the Muay Thai fight and go home with this Rando. And then he's like, you take cash out?

Speaker 4 Sell? That note?

Speaker 2 PayPal?

Speaker 2 I just need only $10,000. She's like, oh, no.
It has to flee out the window.

Speaker 4 You know, and his angry, hot girlfriend is there trying to slap fight everyone.

Speaker 2 But maybe that is the authentic experience. She had the full authentic experience of like thinking you're having an authentic experience traveling.
Yeah. You really want to be at loose ends.

Speaker 4 Like in time to be

Speaker 4 to be crazy. Right.
Oh, but so the thing that happens with Alexi, I mean, that we all know was coming, but that Lori didn't know was coming was that the jewelry that was heisted is

Speaker 4 my thing.

Speaker 4 Alexi, you got 10 grand right there.

Speaker 2 Sell that damn snake choker.

Speaker 2 Right. Who knows? That also that jewelry doesn't seem that expensive.

Speaker 4 I know. I know.
But like, I was like, Lori, Lori should have taken it back. That's my pimple there.
It's like, Lori, put it in your bag. Put it in your dang bag.

Speaker 4 I liked when her drawstring pants were falling off her ass.

Speaker 2 I know. That was a good hustle at the door.
That was a good other woman hustle. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 It was like perfect pants for that as well. Like, there's no, you really, it's a really PJ style Thailand pant, you know.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 So then the party. There's a party over at Gary's.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Invited Belinda and her son, Zion.

Speaker 4 Chloe is dressed like a majorette.

Speaker 4 Like a Taylor Swift heiress to our costume.

Speaker 4 I love the moment where like Parker Posey's got her sort of elaborate silk scarf on and the statement necklace and she's like the boat people.

Speaker 2 Is that we're going to go talk to the boat people? I know. I know.
She's like, she's like sort of a new Tanya. Yeah, she's a new Tanya.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, where she is

Speaker 2 her kind of like drugged out kind of daffiness is the like purposeful, but kind of accidental to the story comic relief.

Speaker 4 Yeah. She's fun at this party.
Yeah. She's like, well, I guess it's boat people or, you know, everything's going to shit.
My daughter is a Buddhist.

Speaker 2 I know. She's like, I'm praying that Jesus can save her from the Buddhist.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And she, she's really, you know, at the party, she's like, she thinks that girl is being sex trafficked. And she's like, come to North Carolina.
She's trying to help out there.

Speaker 2 Are you scared of him?

Speaker 2 But then also at the party, there is Saxon.

Speaker 2 Chelsea and Chloe. First, Saxon is talking to his dad and basically says, like, what's going on? Because if your life is falling apart, that means mine is because I have no identity.

Speaker 2 I've just patterned myself after you.

Speaker 4 I put all my eggs in your basket. Yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 But I loved also the look in Jason Isaac's eyes. You know, he's having that conversation.
He's like, everything's good. Everything's fine.
And it's like, his eyes are in the afterlife, you know?

Speaker 4 Like, his eyes are fully in eternal return. Like, he's thinking, he's no longer there.
Right. And he's at peace with it.
And I found that

Speaker 4 it's a good scene. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's a good interchange. Yeah.
But I don't have anything else but this.

Speaker 5 I don't have any interests. I don't have any hobbies.
Okay, if I'm not a success, then I'm nothing.

Speaker 2 Saxon goes even further and he says, I have no identity. Basically, I am.
And he's kind of saying he's an empty vessel. And so as the party's going on, he then

Speaker 2 having revealed this to his father, is kind of wandering around with that new awareness. And he says what Walton Goggin says too, that they're both these empty vessels for different reasons.

Speaker 2 Like Walton feels like his cup could never be filled. And Saxon is like, I've chosen to have no identity, basically.
So then you're like, uh-huh, what is he going to be filled with?

Speaker 2 Like, what is going to happen? And he goes to the party and he sits down with Chelsea and asks her, you know, why are you even with this old dude anyhow? Is this rich old guy?

Speaker 2 And she explains and quite meaningfully is like, has this sadness.

Speaker 2 It really touches me.

Speaker 2 I want to heal him.

Speaker 2 It's like we're in this yin and yang battle. And I'm hope, and Rick is pain, and eventually one of us will win.

Speaker 2 Which is also kind of a big theme of the whole show, right?

Speaker 4 Right. Well, but it's also because he wants to have sex with her, and she has said outright, I won't fuck you because you have no soul.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And, but I, I kind of, I mean, I like their dynamic in this episode. I like how it feels.
I like how he is still reeling from the revelation of his incestuous threesome.

Speaker 4 And I mean, like, they're sitting. It's like a classic.
The party's going on. You're kind of join someone on a pool chair and you're like, what the hell are we doing here? You know?

Speaker 4 and he and he's giving off this thing in this encounter where he's like he's almost ready for something to be revealed to him right he like sees in her the possibility of some lesson that he's become vaguely aware because of the jason isaac storyline that he he needs some sort of lesson he needs something to his life other than like i'm going to do whatever will allow me to use people for their own and my pleasure.

Speaker 4 Like he's on the cusp of realizing that something needs to change.

Speaker 4 He understands that Chelsea perhaps holds some sort of insider tool, whether it is directly sexual through an encounter with her body or if it's just actually whatever she thinks in her mind.

Speaker 4 They are sitting on these pool chairs and they're, and he's about to receive this wisdom. And then she explains it's a battle between hope and pain.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 he's just like, you're never going to fuck me. And the window kind of closes.
It opens again later in the episode, but

Speaker 4 it's like he's, in this episode, he's almost realizing he needs something, and then he can't tolerate what that would actually mean.

Speaker 4 He's following her around being like, am I going to learn something?

Speaker 4 Do I actually want to?

Speaker 2 But he kind of doesn't. And then also, by the way, while they're sitting there, he's watching from afar and his dad is over there like all sloppy drunk in his kind of spiral.
And he's seeing

Speaker 2 that there's something wrong there. And that's also, I think, pushing him internally to be like, am I open to the message of this woman here who I completely dismiss?

Speaker 4 There's something beyond the immediate surface.

Speaker 2 Yes. Is there? Right.
Yeah, exactly. He's like, finally, like, ready to dig a little bit.
Well, Chloe shows up and invites him into their sexual scenario.

Speaker 2 He wouldn't even touch you. He just wants to creep up on us.
And at some point, I'll leave you and I'll go to Gary. And it would be like he's winning his mother back from his father.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like a little boy's dream.

Speaker 4 So Saxon gets one offer for one kind of identity for the night, which is Chloe's like, well, turns out I'm going to explain for two minutes Gary's elaborate parental cuck fantasy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I liked the

Speaker 2 Oedipal personal psychological

Speaker 2 variant on

Speaker 2 being cuckolded.

Speaker 4 I was like, that was an interesting kind of thing to be cucked by his dad from his mom. The one thing I don't buy here is that Saxon wouldn't have immediately understood what Chloe was asking.

Speaker 4 He'd be like, I've seen 1,000 videos in this category before.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like he's just so vanilla that he has never really thought about. Now it's not possible.
It is exposure to porn.

Speaker 4 I did, I did think when he was like, yeah, I've had threesomes, like with two girls. And I was like, maybe you haven't actually.
Like, he's kind of giving maybe he hasn't and just says he has.

Speaker 4 And there's kind of a symmetry to the fact that Saxon and Lachlan both fucked Chloe with each other the episode before.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 now they are lost and confused. Saxon more

Speaker 4 aggressively so, but Lachlan is no longer in the sort of like morning after reflexive triumphalism than he was last time we saw him.

Speaker 4 And they are both looking to girls, you know, Chelsea and Piper, respectively, to be like, okay, teach me your belief system. I'll do it.
I can't fuck my brother anymore.

Speaker 2 Right. The radio is tuned.
We're ready to receive the transmission.

Speaker 4 There's kind of a flowers in the attic moment with Lachlan and Piper.

Speaker 4 You know, like they're on the bed and they're having this sort of, and she's, and he's like, I want to be here with you.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 2 There's like, I know, that was like, it's like almost like a candlelit scene. And she's in her little white nightgown when she's like cap sleeve, kind of like prairie dress again.

Speaker 2 She looks like Kelly McGillis and Witness when they're like in the barn together. Yeah.
And

Speaker 2 yeah, and then he's like, what if I just stayed here with you? And then she freaks out and leaves. Like she takes her hand off of his leg and is like, I'm going back to my room.

Speaker 2 She's like, maybe I've pushed this too far. Like, what's why? What do you think is her fear there? Why does she recoil?

Speaker 4 Well, she wanted to go, she wanted to leave her family.

Speaker 2 She wanted to be betterly decontextualized and discover who she is outside of laughlin and now she's like get your own damn identity lachlan you know go to go make your college choice don't come here with me right right it's interesting that like saxon is so certain of who he is right and is telling lachlan you could just be looked just like me basically and then saxon is even more destabilized now and is seeking his identity which we see when he and chelsea are walking home and they go back to her room and they're sitting on the bed and it's a quiet scene but then i didn't even quite catch until almost it was over that basically

Speaker 2 he says I'm ready I'm now willing like what what Rick can't do which is like receive her message now Saxon is sitting there saying like I'm ready I'm here for you I will take your message and then she re she freaks out because she's like uh-oh this could go the wrong way yeah so you got the idea yeah

Speaker 2 what that's it you can't become soulful in 10 minutes takes time

Speaker 4 Well, he he does. It's like his posture when he's fall, like he's following behind her.
He's kind of, his his shoulders are a little down.

Speaker 4 He says something that he probably has never said before, which is like,

Speaker 4 I could be someone else. Like, I could be, there could be more to me than this.
Like, he sees a sort of forking and he gets cross-legged on the bed and he and

Speaker 4 he's trying to receive what it is to meditate. But then he's like, but are we going to fuck? And Chelsea's like, oh, no, are we going to fuck? And then she panics and she's like, I kind of want to.

Speaker 4 And she throws all these books at him and hides in the corner. And then he takes the message and leaves.
Like he doesn't, he doesn't press it, but but they almost fuck.

Speaker 2 Right. He's like, okay,

Speaker 2 I am now your pupil teacher and give me your lesson. And he's like, maybe if it entails sex, great, but also I'll take the books.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 You know, ostensibly the real reason that the party was thrown is that Greg can get Belinda in a room and she's, you know, clutching her little purse. She's, she's doing that.

Speaker 4 She's got her hands on her little purse in her lap. And he offers her like a quite insulting $100,000

Speaker 4 to report him for murder to all of the police.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It seems like just from a pure negotiating position, he made an error.

Speaker 4 What do you mean?

Speaker 2 Well, because

Speaker 2 it's not, yeah.

Speaker 4 No, I think that's what you do. It's like Delta offering those people $30,000 for the flight landing upside down.

Speaker 2 He's like, maybe I can get by basically scot-free here.

Speaker 4 He's sending a signal, and it's Belinda's job to take that and be like, I need 10 times.

Speaker 2 5 million.

Speaker 4 Actually, no, yeah, way more than 10x on that.

Speaker 2 But she's taking a moral position when she bolts from the party. She's saying no.
So she's also saying, I'm going to resist this. Would you take the money?

Speaker 4 I'd honestly.

Speaker 4 I mean, I'd ask for more, but I'd frankly take the money. And then I'd still report him.
And then what is he going to do? Right.

Speaker 2 That's a good point. Yeah, exactly.
Right. She's holding the cards.

Speaker 4 Like, have you ever set up an anonymous Gmail, Belinda? Like, pretty easy.

Speaker 2 Come on.

Speaker 2 Right. I wonder, is it like Cash App or Venmo?

Speaker 4 Like, I know he's using Alexi's like Alexi steps in and he's like, we take Cash App.

Speaker 2 We take Venmo. I have a finder's fee

Speaker 4 of a mere $10,000 for the repatriation of my mom or whatever.

Speaker 4 And then Mook and Gaitak, they go on their date. It goes badly because Mook is like, I want you to be more violent because that's how you advance in this world.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And they go to the Muay Thai fight, and she's like, see, it's natural.

Speaker 4 This staged fight that people are paying for. This is actually so natural.

Speaker 2 Well, it's interesting that it sets up. The whole episode is set up with the monk saying violence exists in all of us, right? And that's like sort of the like overture of the episode is that VO over

Speaker 2 Walton Goggins, and then it's kind of playing through, and then it's reinforced at the fight, which, of course, is this display of violence.

Speaker 2 And then it was kind of really sad on that date, right before they get to the fight, when she's like, oh, I thought you were more ambitious.

Speaker 2 When he's saying, like, basically, I'm a pacifist and I don't want to hurt people. And she's like, oh, then maybe we're not meant to be.

Speaker 4 Did you data cuck that wants to watch while your mom fucks your dad or something?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And then, but at the fight, like, I mean, it kind of seeds, like, we are supposed to think that something is going to happen when he recognizes, you know, in kind of a somewhat heavy-handed flashback that, oh, these Russian guys with that girl from the hotel, they are the ones that punched me and robbed me.

Speaker 4 Right. And so you're supposed to think perhaps next episode he'll make a grand gesture.
Right. He's got the gun back, you know, which Jason Isaacs realizes to his dismay.

Speaker 4 Now he's fantasizing about killing his son because his son has also said, I have nothing but what you gave me. And he's like, oh no, I'm going to put these people out of their misery.

Speaker 4 But, you know, in this incredible prop, magician's cabinet, his filing cabinet, 45

Speaker 2 compartments, none of which contain a gun, but Guy talks about it. I know.

Speaker 2 Well, the cabinet also is a little bit like a metaphor for, you know, depending on where the gun is, is like, how's it going to get used, right?

Speaker 2 There's like some motivation for the gun to get used in all these different ways with each of the characters.

Speaker 4 I feel like this episode, I mean, the real here's a test and how are you going to pass it happens with both Rick and Frank.

Speaker 4 Like, unexpectedly with Frank, I think we're, you know, we're 45 seconds into this encounter at Sri Tala's house. And he's like, I'll take a whiskey.

Speaker 2 Right, I know. And I'm like, no, Frank.
He has an easy. Yeah, I know.
God.

Speaker 4 Don't do it for this.

Speaker 2 He's thrown off by the fact that they somehow have not prepped their cover story at all. And they get in there, and then she's like, what movies have you seen of mine? And what movies have I made?

Speaker 2 I don't know. Action movies.
It's good. It's on scripted impromptu.

Speaker 4 What kind of movie are you making here?

Speaker 2 You know what? It's a fun caper, like a thriller. It's got everything.

Speaker 2 Killings, double crossings,

Speaker 2 action, all the stuff. the people like

Speaker 2 it's funny but i was thinking these these two guys are on this like

Speaker 2 you know deception operation to sneak into one of the richest men in thailand's house and yeah this is like a jason bourne movie you should have thought about what you know like let's get an indb for you yeah yeah an exit strategy they should have had this whole thing prepped out like what's even what are we doing here But I think that Rick doesn't know what he's doing, right?

Speaker 4 Like I think that up until, I mean, it's very confusing, this confrontation. It's a strange one.
Rick doesn't know what's going to happen here.

Speaker 4 And he has brought that spirit to Frank as the director, who has no idea

Speaker 4 what his name is. They don't remember what each other's names are.
They haven't looked at Sri Tala's IMDb.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I do. Yeah.
I like how, I mean, Frank,

Speaker 2 the minute he takes a sip of whiskey, is like restored to his like charming self. Yeah, he's got a sparkle in his eye and a wink and a smile.

Speaker 4 They're watching the VHS. He's like, it's giving Pippin.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like Peter Pan meets MC Hammer and some Pippin.

Speaker 2 And meanwhile, now Rick and Jim have gone off into the study to kind of just chat about business, but which is cover for Rick trying to figure out, like, do I need to kill my lifelong sort of nemesis in my mind?

Speaker 4 And Jim, the legendary Scott Glenn.

Speaker 2 Seems you've had quite a life.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Tyler's been good to me.

Speaker 4 We were just going, it's what? Apocalypse Now, you were saying? What else?

Speaker 2 What are we going to do? Glenn is an urban cowboy.

Speaker 4 Oh, my God. His outfit in Urban Cowboy.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 like a crop top mesh outfit.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's giving Bushwick. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's giving Pratt,

Speaker 2 Pratt student,

Speaker 2 the cowboy hat. Yeah.
And he's in Samson Lims. He's in a million things.
He's all over the place. He's in the leftovers.
And he's in Bad Monkey.

Speaker 2 He's the dad in Bad Monkey also. Now he's playing like the sinister figure, but he's also so kind of frail.

Speaker 4 He's old. He's really old.
He's got a cane, but he knows something is wrong almost immediately. Like he knows once Rick calls Frank Frank,

Speaker 4 he knows. Like there's a look in his eye and he's like, something is up here.
But he engages Rick with the, he's like, okay, let's take it to the den.

Speaker 4 Like he knows something's up, but he's used to having enough power in his whole life that he's like, fine, let's see what this is fucking about.

Speaker 2 It is a strange encounter because is there something, is some of the air being taken out of the balloon by virtue of the fact that the Bet Noir, the big kind of bad guy in Rick's mind, is actually so weak and frail and doesn't have any menace.

Speaker 2 Because obviously he backs off because he's like, ultimately, also not a killer. The episode's called Killer Instinct.
It starts with this overture about violence.

Speaker 2 Rick realizes in the moment he's not a killer. He pulls out his gun.
But that's. He can't even hit him.
He can't even hit him. And that's because he's frail.

Speaker 2 But so I was wondering, like, if there was some menace and he knew, and in fact, he encountered part of what he expected and still walked away, would that be sort of a more complex

Speaker 2 test that he passed?

Speaker 4 But it's, I mean, I think, I think to me, what it is, it's like you confronted reality as it is, right? You confronted the fact that this person was a different person then,

Speaker 4 someone that was capable of murdering in cold blood. Now he's probably still capable.
Scott Glenn is still capable of murdering cold blood, but he's old. He's frail now.
And you have power over him.

Speaker 4 Like he had ultimate power over you for how for 50 years.

Speaker 4 Now you functionally and completely, physically, existentially, like this man is at the end of his life. You still have Chelsea waiting for you back home, not fucking Patrick Schwarzenegger.

Speaker 4 And he's sort of like, okay, I mean,

Speaker 4 the test, so to speak, is different because of the actual reality that confronts him in the moment. It's not, can I kill this man? Do I have the strength to kill this man?

Speaker 4 But it's like, do I have the existential wherewithal to realize I don't need to? Right. And in that way, he does, he does.
And then they fucking go off.

Speaker 2 Exactly. God.
Right. He celebrates.
Yeah. He's he turns the tables.
That's a good point. It's like, this guy had power over him, and suddenly now he has the power.

Speaker 2 And perhaps that's enough to just like completely dispel the illusion.

Speaker 4 And then I'm so legitimately upset for Frank. Like, sobriety is a really important thing.

Speaker 2 I know, I know. I hardly do.

Speaker 2 I know. Like, it's going to be a tough fight back.
And then they go off and party, and he's immediately already got like a bunch of people. Oh, my God, Coke and Hooker.

Speaker 2 And then he's doing meth or whatever.

Speaker 4 Yeah, crack, like whatever he's doing.

Speaker 2 Right. And he's like, let's go big.
It's Bangkok. One night.
And then eventually, of course, they take it to the hotel room. And Rick is just sitting on the couch.
kind of observing.

Speaker 2 He's not really engaging in the way like Frank is like, okay, this is my, I'm back to in my in my, my

Speaker 2 wheelhouse. Yeah, exactly.
And Walton, Rick, just is kind of sitting there with a smile on his face, right?

Speaker 2 He's got this like slight beatific smile where like, yeah, he's like, actually, I'm not going to take you up.

Speaker 4 Three topless girls offering me the coke straw or whatever. Like, he's like, I'm actually okay.
And I'm like, okay. Yeah.
Rick and Chelsea. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Are we going to make it? We're still pulling for them. We're going to make it.
I know. They're both.
They just need to be reunited.

Speaker 4 I also think they could have done whatever this night and made it back.

Speaker 4 I really believe in them.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Well, they're soulmates.
They're soulmates. And then she's going to follow him to the next life and heal him there if she has to.

Speaker 4 And I kind of wanted Chelsea to have a selfish moment. I mean, I kind of wanted her to have a little bit of a selfish moment, you know?

Speaker 4 But I

Speaker 4 like that they didn't. I like that, you know, they still kind of have a bit of a pure

Speaker 4 thing. The battle of hope and pain.
Like, it's like hope seems kind of to be winning here. Right.

Speaker 2 That's true. She has, like, now like their reunion is a potential pure one.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But I'm with you. I kind of wanted her and Saxon.
Because also that's like this separate, tiny, weird little, essentially rom-com, right?

Speaker 2 If you just isolate that story, it's like he's the devilish cat, and she's the plucky heroine, and she wants nothing to do with him. And then they realize that they're enemies to lovers.

Speaker 2 And then they have this moment where she could actually realize the full potential that she's not able to with Rick. And then perhaps by so doing, like that elevates her power even more.

Speaker 2 And then she brings that back to Rick. That's exactly what I'm thinking.
That's exactly what I'm thinking.

Speaker 4 And what in her position, I probably would have done.

Speaker 4 I feel like this whole season, there's been

Speaker 4 this thing going on with age where, you know, I think maybe rightfully all the characters are a little disgusted by the old white dudes that are in Thailand, you know, with like hot girlfriends.

Speaker 4 And, you know, there were the women, the women are self-conscious of their age.

Speaker 4 And they're, you know, through the whole like competitive dynamic, Like something that hits harder in the way they fight at the beginning of the episode is like they are set in their lives now.

Speaker 4 Like they are, they're not old, but they are too old to

Speaker 4 choose a radically different value set and have it reset their life. Like they're entrenched.
They have children. They have careers.
They've made their choices. They have divorces.

Speaker 4 They have marriages. Like they can't, like there's this kind of fear of finality in them.

Speaker 4 They're fearing that the narratives that have been in play for the last 30 years are going to be the narratives for the rest of their lives.

Speaker 4 They're seeing that it probably is true and realizing that about each other, but refusing to recognize it about themselves.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, the women are all at sort of like midlife crisis age. And so in some, it's like

Speaker 2 a classic setup. I mean, I feel like it is most beautifully demonstrated with an incredible flair when they wind up at the pool, which is full of the old people.
And they're like, this is disgusting.

Speaker 2 This is the future. It's like the old lady in the bathtub in the shining.
Yeah. You know, that's like, this is the terrible future that awaits.
And so

Speaker 2 they recoil from that and go back into the self-preservation mode, which I hadn't really thought about this, that their encounter with that kind of like immutable future puts their guard back up, you know, with each other.

Speaker 4 And I think there's also something

Speaker 4 with every character where it's sort of like,

Speaker 4 are you going to go into the rest of your life kind of honest or are you not? You know, like there is this kind of hope embedded within each of them that they can just, that they can work it out.

Speaker 4 They can work out something. And like they all kind of want to leave here and be like, okay, I'm going to straightforwardly live the rest of my life kind of

Speaker 4 in clarity and peace.

Speaker 4 And they're all fighting up against whatever barrier it is to actually doing that.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 I mean, in midlife crisis, right,

Speaker 2 it's a massive challenge in destabilizing and people kind of like sometimes don't recover, but it's also a chance for transformation. And you can sort of like reset your entire sense of yourself.

Speaker 2 And that's kind of the opportunity that's being put in front of many of the characters here. Right.
Right. And that's that's the bigger test.
In this episode, there were like a lot of little tests.

Speaker 2 There's like these more moral ethical tests, but then there's like sort of a bigger test for like, where am I going?

Speaker 4 Can you go into the rest of your life not

Speaker 4 hiding something?

Speaker 2 Are you going to wear the mask or not? Are you going to go to the grave with your mask on?

Speaker 2 Yeah, and they're all wondering that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And we'll see.

Speaker 4 And now we'll be talking to Gary slash Greg, John Grice.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, welcome, John Grice, to the season three companion podcast to White Lotus.

Speaker 5 Thank you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 I mean, I just really have to immediately ask, we need to just clear the air/slash cloud the air and know,

Speaker 4 did

Speaker 4 Greg slash Gary kill Tanya? Did he orchestrate the killing of Tanya? Or are we going to be working from that premise or not as we speak?

Speaker 5 Well, okay, so I'm glad you clarified with orchestrate. I would say in a court of law, there would never be anywhere near a guilty verdict, considering he was thousands of miles away.

Speaker 2 I just thought about this.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, of course.

Speaker 5 You had to.

Speaker 2 And then you think about,

Speaker 5 you know, was it for hire?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 5 I, I, you know, it's interesting because when I did season two,

Speaker 5 I don't know if I should reveal this, but I was operating under the premise that

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 5 orchestrated for something to happen. Obviously,

Speaker 5 the Italian stud gentleman who was offered into the circle to satisfy Tanya,

Speaker 5 I think could have been my doing. You know, let's get her in a compromising situation.
And then it just got... It got taken too far.

Speaker 5 That was how I was looking at it. Like, well, did I really, you know, think to offer? No,

Speaker 5 I thought to

Speaker 5 really make it so that I had a pretty good wedge for negotiating. But I think that as I got to Thailand and I was really kind of going over my old notes, because I do write a pretty extensive history.

Speaker 5 And of course, obviously it's augmented each time I get a new season.

Speaker 5 I mean, I feel so blessed to be able to say that.

Speaker 5 I'm not, I'm like the guy saying, yeah, well, you know, the next season came i mean for me to be there is just is a miracle you know but i just things weren't weren't quite gelling for me weren't quite working

Speaker 5 that i i finally sought mike out and we started to have a conversation he goes well you know who he is you know the guy you're playing him and i was like yeah i do but i'm surprised by certain things you know he goes you got it you know you you know who he is and then finally, I got up really early one morning and I was walking around, and sure enough, there he was walking to the set.

Speaker 5 I ran up to him and I said, wait a minute. So, Greg slash Gary.
You know, I've been always thinking that he didn't have quite as big a hand in this. But I'm realizing, my gosh, psychopath, right?

Speaker 5 And he goes,

Speaker 2 psychopath, and walked away. And that was like, that was it.

Speaker 5 You know, and that set me in a different pattern. So, to answer the question,

Speaker 5 as me protecting the character, I'm not going to reveal. But

Speaker 2 well, that kind of

Speaker 2 aligns with how we have been kind of systematically second-guessing Gary slash Greg, if indeed either of those are his names. Did he even work with the Bureau of Land Management?

Speaker 2 Was this all like an elaborate ruse to find a mark from the beginning?

Speaker 4 Right. And has he done this throughout his life and just like made fortunes, spent them, made them, spent them?

Speaker 5 Well, I couldn't anticipate what Mike was up to because that would be folly. He's always going to surprise you.
But he did write to me one evening and said, are you available?

Speaker 5 Because I'm writing something for Greg. And this was before season two.
And said to me, and he said, would you be, I just, I don't want to, if you're not available, I can't write this.

Speaker 5 And I said, no, absolutely. Anytime, anywhere, you tell me.
And he said, okay.

Speaker 5 And by the way, he's diabolical. And that was it.

Speaker 2 And I was like, oh, okay,

Speaker 2 okay. I was like,

Speaker 5 I was really excited about it.

Speaker 5 And immediately I looked back at season one notes and I was like, no, no,

Speaker 5 no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 5 I changed a lot of things. I just, just from that one sentence, I was like, okay, now I am, because I always did reflect about, you know, this guy, is he, isn't he too good to be true?

Speaker 5 And that's why I was pot committed to the idea that he was indeed

Speaker 5 to die at any time. And so his attitude was like, I'm not going to suffer anything.
I'm not going to worry about people's problems. I'm going to live every moment in that moment.

Speaker 5 And Tanya, yes, she's... She cleaves to her drama.
And I'll just like let that run off my back and just nod my head and smile and say, let's have sex. Let's drink.
Let's have fun.

Speaker 5 You know, and that's what I feel like Greg was always pushing towards her. Like, come on, let's drink, let's eat, let's, you know, because she ruminated over everything.

Speaker 5 Oh, should I?

Speaker 4 But once Mike said diabolical, you thought, oh, that was just Greg being a spectacular actor.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I did. And he's changed.

Speaker 2 And it's laying the foundation.

Speaker 5 And it did make me go back. Actually, now that I knew I was coming in for season two, and I went back over the notes for season one, and I went, read the script again because I saved all of them.
And

Speaker 5 I said, Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 5 this is understandable. This is a mark.

Speaker 2 You never see him

Speaker 5 with his fishing buddies. He's got these stories, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, totally. The thing that Greg maybe did always orchestrate from the beginning in your understanding was the liaison with Italian stallion number one or whatever.

Speaker 4 But now, watching this season, it's like, was this part of the cock thing?

Speaker 2 Was this trying to get away? Season That was his kink.

Speaker 4 That was the kink.

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 I definitely feel that that is a reality with him. I mean, there's no doubt.
And it's funny, even before I got to

Speaker 5 the scene where Charlotte kind of explains him a little bit, I had already fixated it in my brain. I was like, yeah,

Speaker 5 this guy is...

Speaker 5 He doesn't fall in love. He doesn't have that capability.

Speaker 4 He only wishes to steal his mother back from his father. Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 As the young boy.

Speaker 4 So it's funny. It's like that's perhaps the single truthful piece of information that we know about Greg slash Gary that he's as a cock fantasy.

Speaker 2 Oh my god. So it's not character.
It's Kanka's destiny. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 4 It's got to be so fun to have this show of all shows take you on this journey from like

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 man attached to nothing but pleasure, you know, trying to live out life with this beautiful gookie woman he met to like pure sociopath.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 5 And I, I mean, it is. It's incredible.
And yet at the same time, I also feel like there were moments where while I was playing him, I had this kind of counteractive emotion.

Speaker 5 So sometimes he's sitting there and he looks like he wants to kill somebody when in actuality, in his mind, he's like humming a tune. You know, it's kind of how I was thinking about him.

Speaker 5 He has a kind of, he has a singular sensibility. He doesn't really like people in general anyway.
He doesn't want to know their stories unless there's something that he can gain.

Speaker 5 He's no interest in anybody unless they have something that

Speaker 2 he covets. He has a resting psychopath face.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 Inside of just thinking about what he's going to eat for dinner. I wondered, at what point did you think that Greg slash Gary perceives Belinda as

Speaker 4 a worthy adversary, like a real adversary, someone that it might be difficult to get to go away.

Speaker 5 I think that, you know, the interesting thing about Gary Gregg is that he invites the path of least resistance. He's not, he always, he has a single-mindedness, like I say, and he offers one chance.

Speaker 5 Usually, this case, he decided to back off of Plan B. Whatever Plan B may be, I'll not reveal, but I do think that

Speaker 5 he

Speaker 5 was thinking this could be too messy, and it's better to just let it go away as opposed to handle it a different way.

Speaker 2 I like how you had your own plan B.

Speaker 4 And I like how you're giving it away.

Speaker 4 You're protecting it by being euphemistic about it. It's like maybe we get another, we get porn chai in there.

Speaker 4 We get some dirt on Belinda. We take it to the white lotus management.
We get her out of the executive training program.

Speaker 5 There's always an opportunity if you are an opportunistic person.

Speaker 4 There's always a boat that someone could sort of slip off.

Speaker 5 That's right. You always have to keep your eye open.
Of course, to me, when I look back at Quentin, I think,

Speaker 5 you know, listen, I see Gary Gregg as someone who did at some point work for the Bureau of Land Management. But in his book,

Speaker 5 a drowning victim is a drowning victim. So in his mind, was why,

Speaker 5 you know, Quentin was the perennial fuck-up and why would he, why do you,

Speaker 5 you, you bring any kind of a, you're going to put some bullet holes in somebody and drop them in the water? That's murder. If they're just in the water, it's just an accident.

Speaker 5 You know, I feel like his attitude about it was like, if that were the plan, I'm just saying this is a hypothetical. If that were the plan, why would you do it the way you did it?

Speaker 5 You know, I could imagine that the argument that he would have with Quentin going, no, no.

Speaker 5 Dude,

Speaker 5 a drowned person is a drowned person. We pull them up all the time.

Speaker 5 We used to fish them out of the water all the time. And there's no way, unless they have ligature marks or they've got a bullet in them or they've been bonked on the head.

Speaker 5 Are they murder victims?

Speaker 2 We really thought this through.

Speaker 4 Well, you know, there's something, so I was thinking that and I was also thinking perhaps you can answer a question that Josh and I had at the beginning, which was, like, there's a lot of sort of kind of necessary for the machinery, like tempting fate going on in this, in this season.

Speaker 4 You know, I think at the beginning we were like, why, why is Gary at the White Lotus? Like, why is Gary, like, why is Gary trying to escape the white lotus?

Speaker 4 Living just up the hill and coming down there for dinner every night. You know, and, and, but, you know, I think you can assimilate it into the performance that you give throughout the season.

Speaker 4 I'm like, okay, he's just, he's got just that much shark-like confidence. He's just like,

Speaker 2 I'm here.

Speaker 4 If you want to talk to me about this death that I had no part of, I will have a conversation with you.

Speaker 5 I think also, I think there happens to be a bit of blinders on here because he's in a place that he assumes that

Speaker 5 it's so far removed. But I think also...
it is where the menu of opportunity is for he and his girlfriend you know

Speaker 5 totally you know so you you know she's a wonderful lure and and so the idea

Speaker 5 of of him having you know uh an appetite for

Speaker 2 you know whether or not participation or just observation whatever it is he has an odd proclivity we of course were over the course of the season kind of debating what is the true nature of Gary's relationship with Chloe she then reveals late in the game at the party in this episode the kink and we're like okay well, that's clearly some kind of bedrock.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 what else is that relationship about? Is it a real relationship? What's Gary drawn to besides that, you know,

Speaker 2 the obvious? She's a foxy lady. Gorgeous.

Speaker 2 Because at that party, also, a lot of the older guys and the young women, there's a whole funny bit with, I suppose, Victoria thinking that this woman's being trafficked and she can save her, but she's like, no, I really love him.

Speaker 2 We're in the relationship. So where do Gary and Chloe fit in?

Speaker 5 Well, I think that, you know, Chloe, Charlotte Le Bon is so beautifully cast as far as I'm concerned, because

Speaker 5 she is as operative and maneuver, she's a, you know,

Speaker 5 she knows the game and she doesn't suffer fools.

Speaker 5 And you can tell this is somebody that I feel, and I felt from the minute we started working together, that yes, Gary has a great deal of confidence that she will get his back

Speaker 5 within reason. Let her have some free rein, give her some rope, and understand that if you call her to action, she's there.

Speaker 2 She's in.

Speaker 5 And I believe that he's not telling her the whole story. He's created, obviously, an acceptable narrative between the two of them.
But at the same time, you know, Maybe Rick is right.

Speaker 5 Maybe she was an escort, you know, a sex worker. Who knows? Regardless, there's an understanding between them that I think is tacit.
There's something that they share that is intrinsic.

Speaker 5 And beside the fact that she looks as good as she does and she's smart and witty and kind of cheeky,

Speaker 5 she's a good partner. She's a good partner.

Speaker 4 Yeah, they're a good duo. Yeah, I mean, I think

Speaker 2 they're both operators.

Speaker 5 Exactly. He'll keep her around because she's in lockstep with him.
And I think that, you know, he loves the idea that

Speaker 5 she went around, you know, and, I mean, you know, I have a boat crew that's operating the yacht. I mean, it's not like she was hiding from anybody because she knows they're going to report the cattle.

Speaker 2 She's got the security footage. Oh, totally.
Totally.

Speaker 5 He was watching on his iPhone doing God knows what.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 there was coverage at the full moon party.

Speaker 4 He was like, oh, Laughlin.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I thought they were bumping. I'll see that one coming out.
Wow. That's a twist.
That's a twist. All right.

Speaker 4 You know, the the crazier the better this is going better than expected yeah john thank you so much for coming on the podcast it's such a treat to talk to you such a pleasure great to see you guys nice to see you bye

Speaker 4 Well, that was fun. Now we know, so he murdered Tanya, but he's got legal, plausible, deniability.
He has a real cock fantasy. And he's a true psychopath.

Speaker 2 He has a resting psychopath phase.

Speaker 4 And he did work at BLM once upon a time. But I don't even believe that.
I think he was still answering his girl slash Greg.

Speaker 2 If that's even his name. All right.
Thanks to John Grice for coming on the show. And see you on the next episode.

Speaker 4 We'll also have a bonus episode this week in which I'll be interviewing Dan Savage, author of Savage Love, host of the Savage Lovecast, absolute icon to me and probably to many of you.

Speaker 4 I'll be asking him all of my burning questions about sex and relationships and brotherly hand jobs in season three. See you then.

Speaker 4 The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Baerman.
Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer.

Speaker 4 Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Pachillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewen Lai Tremuyin.
At Campside Media, our executive producers Josh Dean.

Speaker 4 For the HBO podcast team, our executive producers Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen-Sorokach, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.