854: Ten Things I Don't Want to Hate About You

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Okay, off to lift some weights in a humble way. A quick warning.
There are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org.
I think we all have people in our lives who we love, but there's no talking to them. They have the way of seeing things or doing things.
It's hard to take. And no matter how you try to talk it out, it goes nowhere.
It doesn't get solved. Even if they also want things to change.
We're devoting our entire show today to a story like that. It's from Zach Mack, who's a reporter.
And the story is about him and his dad. and how they both wanted to mend a rift that had grown between them,

that lasted for years,

but they couldn't figure out how

until Zach's dad offered a very surprising way out.

That's going to be our whole show today.

His dad's unusual solution and how it played out.

That's all I'm going to say for now. From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
I'm Eric Glass. And with that, I turn things over to Zach.
This all started about a year ago. My father called and left me this message.
Hey, Zach. Dad again.
Good conversation last night. um hey i didn't remember to tell you this

because i was kind of tired but they're gonna they're gonna shut us down again and it's gonna be a worse shutdown than 2020 because of this emp this all the supply lines are going to be disrupted. So you really want to store up two months worth of food and water because they probably won't be able to pump water throughout the city because that's all controlled by computers and electronics.
And the EMP is going to shut down everything electronic. My dad's talking about something called an electromagnetic pulse,

EMP for short,

which I only know about because it's what George Clooney uses

in the movie Ocean's Eleven to pull off the casino heist.

What's a pinch?

A pinch is a device which creates like a cardiac arrest

for any broadband electrical circuitry.

An electromagnetic pulse which shuts down any power source

within its blast radius.

You should buy enough water.

I can't remember a single other time dad left me a message Thank you. a circuitry, an electromagnetic pulse which shuts down any power source within its blast radius.

You should buy enough water.

I can't remember a single other time Dad left me a message

expressing a safety concern.

But he was really convinced this was going to happen.

At one point, he even did a little math

for how much water I would need to survive.

So I would buy, you know, 60

times 10, which is

600 ounces.

I know it sounds like conspiracy

theory, but they're

going to do this. This is what they're

Thank you. times 10, which is 600 ounces.
I know it sounds like conspiracy theory,

but they're going to do this.

This is what they're planning,

and I just want to have you be prepared, okay?

Okay, so just a little background.

I wouldn't describe my father as a paranoid person.

I wouldn't even call him an anxious person.

He's actually an optimist and usually prefers to keep things light. So a lot of dad jokes.
What else? He's held down the same job forever. He has friends, not close ones, but there's dudes he goes skiing and sailing with.
When I was growing up, dad was kind of in his own world. Mom was always the more involved parent, the one who knew all my friends and whatever was going on with me.
Dad and I have never been particularly close. Typically, when I hear from him on the phone, it's during an Ohio State football game.
We both love the Buckeyes, so during a game he'll call me like five or six times, but not much beyond games, though. Ohio State football is like the one thing we can't agree on.
The thing we can't seem to agree on is reality. Like so many people, dad's gotten swept up in conspiracies.
Lately, he's been talking about chemtrails, that the government can control the weather, that January 6th was staged by what he calls the deep state. As he's gotten more extreme in the last few years, I've seen my mom and sister retract and shut down around him.
I'm typically the one who challenges dad on this stuff. Because I'm a reporter, I can't resist taking the bait.
It's called denying us freedom of speech. No.
It's called denying us freedom of speech. It's misinformation.
No. Who gets the right to label it misinformation? Of course, it never goes anywhere.
Until a year ago. After a family blowout over the holidays that was so bad my sister and I left early, I decided to confront my father.
I could see how his beliefs were starting to strain the family, and I worried that pretty soon there may be no coming back for him. I told him I thought he was being radicalized online and pleaded with him to hear me.
As always, he didn't agree. But what he did next surprised me.
Dad texted me a photo of a sheet of paper where, in his barely legible cursive, he had written out a list of 10 predictions. 10 things that he was positive would all take place sometime in 2024, assuring me that when all of these things happened, I would see once and for all that he was right.
At the bottom of the page was a challenge to a bet for $10,000. And let me just say, Dad and I are not big gamblers, nor are we rich.
10K is easily more money than either of us has ever wagered. Looking over the list, I was a combination of surprised, horrified, and also it was a little hard to take seriously.
I immediately called him up to discuss the terms of the bet. Do you have the list in front of you? Because you...
Yeah, yeah. Can you walk me through the one through 10? I just want to add each one.
I'll probably have a couple clarifying questions. Yeah, absolutely.
Keep in mind, this call took place back in January 2024. Number one, Obama will be found guilty of treason in 2024.
So like by a court? Yes. Okay.
Not the court of public opinion correct okay and then number two oh yeah uh biden will be found guilty of treason in 2024 just treason for something specific for for selling all those secrets that he had in the back of his corvette I I don't know if that's a joke. I'm not sure.
It's partially a joke, but it's also real. It went on like this, all political.
Dad's other predictions were that Nancy Pelosi would also be convicted of treason. Same for Bill and Hillary Clinton, who would go down for murder as well.
That Trump would be reinstated without an election and cleared of all charges. That Biden would be removed from office.
Same for both the governor and mayor of New York. And as a New York City resident, I didn't hate that last one.
You know, that one, I'm actually kind of hopeful we get that one because, you know, I don't really love Eric Adams. He's kind of an idiot.
So I'm with you on that one.

Yep, he's a total idiot.

And I'm impressed that you see that.

So good.

One we can both cheer for.

Eventually, we landed on his final prediction for 2024,

his boldest one.

Number 10.

I threw this in because I thought you'd be excited about it.

Yeah, it's an exciting one.

It's probably the most exciting one.

The U.S. will come under martial law in 2024 because of mass rioting and chaos.
So the military will have to step in. For the record, I was never actually excited about the possibility of this happening.
Do you think this will be happening all over the country, only in certain parts? Well, the whole United States will come under martial law. And the biggest cities will be targeted.
You know, New York, unfortunately, Washington, D.C., the Bay Area. Okay.
You seem pretty confident about that. I am 100% 100 confident because this is like a pretty this is a pretty huge shake-up yeah i would say it is our country hasn't seen anything like this since the civil war probably well not even in the civil war this this is going to be the biggest shakeup to ever hit the United States of America and the world at large.
I mean, I think the way you've laid it out here, there'll be a pretty clear case of like, who's right and who's wrong. Yeah.
Yeah. I think it will be very black and white.
And if you are wrong... Then you're $10,000 richer.

Yeah, but look, I'm not...

This isn't just about the money, right? I would like to make some positive strides for our family. Well, I think that once you see that I haven't been duped by AI and social media and the algorithms, I think you will gain a lot more respect for who I am and how I think and how I've come to believe.
the other thing I want to have you say after each one of

these is that, wow, dad, you were right and I was wrong. Same goes for you then.
Okay, absolutely.

All right. Deal.
Happy to do it.

And so our strange bet was on.

I saw Dad's challenge as an opening.

Instead of just arguing until the end of time,

we were actually going to settle this.

And now we had a deadline.

New Year's 2025.

The moment I saw his proposal, I knew I had him beat. And for the very first time, he'd have to admit he was wrong.
All I had to do was wait 12 months, and once he

decisively lost, I figured he'd be more open to my version of the truth. And maybe I could pull

him back to reality a bit. And the timing for the bet couldn't be better, because his beliefs were

starting to tear our family apart. Coming up, Zach calls his mom, who has some news of her own.
Stay with us. This is American Life.
Zach Mack picks up his story about his year-long bet with his dad. Not long after making the bet, I called my mom.
My parents have been married for 40 years. They met in their 20s in Chicago, fell in love, and moved to California, where they eventually had my sister and I.
We grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, a pretty liberal place, which worked for my mom because she's a pretty liberal Jewish woman. Dad has always been the odd man out, the lone Christian conservative.
Though growing up, he was much quieter about his beliefs. And when my parents met, neither of them were religious.
But Dad got back into it when I was young. Now he's very into it.
That's been difficult for my parents for decades. But now with the conspiracy stuff emerging, it's been really hard on my mom.

It's getting pretty crazy, and I don't even know half of it.

You know, we have two generators in the house.

There are now eight flats of water in the garage that he bought at Costco.

And some kind of fancy water filter system that was a couple hundred dollars.

He's stockpiling weird food. What kind of food? You know, 12 cans of canned chicken.
And I'm like, I have never eaten canned chicken. You have never eaten canned chicken.
Why is there canned chicken? And I feel like returning it all this week while he's not home. And he moved some money without my permission.
How did he do that? He didn't need your sign off? No, because

it's a joint account. And he withdrew from a joint account without telling me and made a purchase he

knew I would never approve. What was it? He bought a precious metal.
Because dad's worried the banks are going to collapse, he wants to move big chunks of their money into things like platinum and silver. Why is he so unwilling to listen to everyone around him? I don't know.
I wish I knew because then I could crack it. I don't know how to pull him back.
I have been very clear that I'm not sure how much more I can take.

Have you been clear with him about that?

Yeah.

And I've even said, you know, I'm considering leaving, ending the marriage.

You said that to him?

Yeah, which is very hard for me to say because I'm 69.

I'm about to retire.

Yeah.

Not necessarily the life I had planned for myself to be alone.

But what kind of life do I have now? Mom was initially irritated by the bed because Dad didn't run it by her first, which happens a lot. But the idea of a deadline, that was starting to make sense to her.
I need an end point. And so the end point is December 31st.
When January 1st comes around, things have to change. I'm only going to put up, I can barely put up with it now, and I can't put up with it after that.
Later, I called my sister Kira about the bet. Unfortunately, she's been having her own conflict with Dad, also about his beliefs.
Two years ago, Kira came out to him. My mom and I had known for years, but Kira was always afraid to tell Dad because she thought he'd disapprove.
It didn't go well. He said he'd always love my sister, but he thought she was choosing to be gay, and he didn't agree with that choice.
I think the hardest part

is that he looked at me

and told me that I was wrong about myself

and that he was right.

And I don't understand how he could know that.

Kira and I are close.

And when I told her about the bet,

she liked the idea of forcing Dad to confront the reality

that some of his beliefs are likely wrong.

But we weren't sure if that

helped her situation either way.

So like, let's say

these things don't come true

and he's willing to

say like, I was wrong

about these things. I don't

feel like that would affect

his beliefs around me.

Like, even if he's right about everything else, I'm probably still going to be gay after that. So Dad and I had a year.
January came and went, and neither of us put any points on the board with the bet. Then in February, Dad caught a small break with Mayor Adams.
He had been under investigation for months, and things were heating up. The FBI raided one of his advisors, and someone else pled guilty to conspiracy charges.
Seemed like Dad could actually win that one. Then in March, the New York governor sent the National Guard into the subway, which, if you squint, could look like the pretense to martial law.
While we waited for the other predictions to come true or not, I tried to make the most of the time. I found myself thinking back to something Dad said to me at the end of an argument once a few years back.
He said, well, you don't really know me. And I wondered if he might be right, that maybe I didn't really know him.
And if I had any hope of changing his mind or even nudging the trajectory of his beliefs, I would need to understand my father better. So I decided to make a project of it.
One question I still had was how he'd even gotten here. Though looking back, there were signs.
I remember my mom telling me about how when I was a child, dad didn't want me to get vaccinated.

Mom wasn't having it, so I ended up getting all my shots.

But I never really understood where dad's hangups came from.

But now that we had some time to kill, I could ask him.

I know throughout my lifetime, you have been distrusting of vaccines.

Is that fair to say?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's definitely true. I'm wondering when that began.
Well, the seed was planted actually before I went to school. As a child.
As a child. Back in the 60s, dad was about to enter elementary school in Ohio, and there was a new law requiring vaccines.
Now, you remember, Grandpa, my dad, was a chiropractor. And so he believed in natural immunity and the body's ability to heal itself.
And so he was an anti-vaxxer. Okay.
And I mean, we didn't call him that back then, but it's the same difference. And I just wanted just wanted to go to school and I kept telling my dad and my mom, Hey, it's okay.
You know, I, I, you know, I'm not afraid of the vaccination, you know, I'm willing to go and, um, you know, I just want to go to school. So I was not able to go to kindergarten because we couldn't find a school that would accept me without a vaccination.
Oh, wow. So you didn't go to kindergarten? I did not go to kindergarten.
Do you think your dad was, I don't know, how would you describe him? Would you describe him as stubborn? Oh, yeah. Stubborn, very opinionated, hard-headed at times.
Dad was one of six children. The family was supported primarily by my grandpa, who had a small chiropractic business.
That is, until the Ohio State Medical Board cracked down on him. And so they literally threw my dad in jail for a couple of days for practicing without a license.
The way dad tells it, after my grandfather's business dissolved, he was never able to recover. He became so depressed that he literally couldn't get out of bed for like six months.
And he was never the same man. That literally broke him.
Wow. And how old were you when this happened? I was like 13 or 14 years old.
One of the things I remember most about my grandfather is how tall and thin he was. And how one time when he came to visit us, his body had just completely changed.
He had suddenly gained over 100 pounds in a very short amount of time. He was going through some mental health issues that the family never fully understood.
And it was affecting his weight and his ability to sleep. He wouldn't really sleep during the night, which meant that throughout the day, he would constantly fall asleep.
He'd be in the middle of a conversation sometimes, or even at dinner, and he'd just start snoring. Minutes later, he'd abruptly wake up and carry on as if nothing happened.
This also began to happen while he was driving. My grandpa got into a number of car accidents.
He totaled several cars and nearly killed my grandmother. He refused to stop driving and even went to a neighboring state to get a driver's license after his was taken away.
He refused to admit anything was wrong. The family tried to talk to him.
So did my father several times. And when that didn't work, and I'd never heard this part of the story before, dad tried something else.
I wrote him a long letter. I wrote him like a two or three page letter and mailed it to him because I wanted him to be able to read the whole letter so I could finish what I really

wanted to say to him without interruption. And I said, you know, dad, I love you.
I want the best

for you. You know, I'm not trying to say anything horrible or damaging or critical about you, but

Thank you. I want the best for you.
You know, I'm not trying to say anything horrible or damaging or critical about you, but your whole family is concerned about you. Can't you see this? Can't you recognize that we all would like to see you live to a ripe old age? Because I said, if you continue on this path, I don't know when you're going to die, but I know you're going to die.
So. Not long after this, I was 10 years old at the time.
My parents called my sister and me into the kitchen to tell us something. But before they said anything, I already knew.
My grandfather was dead. His vehicle veered off the road and flipped over.
When I think about my grandfather, I think about how what caused his death may have been stubbornness, a refusal to listen to those around him. He was 68 years old, the same age my father was when he proposed our bed.
As the year pressed on, we continued discussing Dad's life and the things he'd come to believe.

Turns out a lot of his predictions were coming from a single source online.

And something you should know about my father is that he really struggles with technology.

He can barely navigate the internet.

He can't even figure out how to access his own email account from his laptop.

Around 2019, Dad got an iPad and that felt like a turning point. It wasn't long until he started saying weird things.
One time I was home visiting and we got into it because he was trying to tell me that the government was controlling Facebook from the very beginning and that Mark Zuckerberg was just a pawn. And when the pandemic hit, it felt like the perfect storm.
Like so many of us, Dad went searching for answers.

I was Googling around, trying to find someone who I thought was reputable, reliable, and truly plugged into God.

I was trying to find someone who was a legitimate prophet, because there's a lot of false prophets out there. What dad found was a lot of conspiracies, of course, but also the next evolution of his faith.
During the pandemic, dad came to believe strongly in prophecy, the idea that God still speaks through intermediaries. When you're talking about how God speaks today, and you believe it's through prophets,

that is a divisive within Christianity, right? That is a divisive thought? Very divisive. Why do you believe it? um because he's always had prophets.
And it makes sense that just like he had prophets in Old Testament times, he would continue with it. Why would he suddenly stop? I never quite understood why God would stop talking to his people.
Sure enough, Dad found someone he believes can commune directly with God. I am the great revealer.
Meet Julie Green, my dad's preferred prophet. A great fall is coming.
A fall of a global cabal. My children, 2024 will be a year like no other.

I firmly believe that.

God did lead me to Julie Green.

She's not particularly big online,

a couple hundred thousand subscribers,

but she's part of a growing movement within Christianity

that emphasizes spiritual warfare and politics.

It's all very Trumpy and full of prophecies. Secrets in the White House are about to be revealed.
The Obamas, the Clinton, Adam Schiff, Mitch McConnell, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi. As you can probably tell, this is where dad's getting most of his predictions.
And when I talk to dad about these predictions, it's clear that for him, they all stem from his religious beliefs, which I've always found somewhat confusing, because when I look at his list, none of these things seem to have anything to do with God at all. In July, some news.
President Biden announced he was withdrawing as the Democratic nominee for president. I thought, what was Dad's prediction again?

Oh, he said removed from office.

Guess I'm in the clear.

As the year sped by, I read books with titles like When Prophecy Fails.

I spoke to a number of clinicians and conspiracy experts.

Met my dad's pastors.

I even interviewed several of his friends.

None of them shared his beliefs,

but they said they didn't really argue with him about it either. Only one said it hurt their friendship with Dad.
Sometimes I'd send Dad highlights of articles debunking some of his more out-there claims. Like the one about how the Joe Biden you see on the news is actually a body double.
Well, it's actually a common practice in a lot of third-world countries. Look at Saddam Hussein.
Saddam Hussein had, they aren't even sure, but over a half a dozen body doubles. That's why he could appear in one part of the country one day and someplace else another day.
Yeah, I don't think they were like giving speeches and, you know, making policy on his behalf, though. You know what I'm saying? Some of them were.
I think they were just maybe a quick appearance. But mostly they were just appearances.
Fun fact, while we're talking about body devils, when the Biden... Why do you call him the Biden? Well, because it's a body double.
Okay. The last time Netanyahu, who's the Israeli prime minister, came to visit the U.S.
here in Washington, D.C., it was interesting that the fake Biden stood six inches taller than Netanyahu. Netanyahu and Biden are both listed to be five feet, ten inches tall.
So don't you find it interesting that when they were standing side by side in a couple of photos that Biden was suddenly six inches taller? Well, first of all, Biden's listed height is six feet. Let's see what Netanyahu's height is.
He's also six feet, it says. Okay, yeah, they're the same height.
The point is they're the same height. I thought it was 5'10".
So, yeah, so it's six feet. Are you talking about this image? Yeah, I think that's it, yeah.
He looks a little taller. Well, but he's taller in every picture.
This is a different place. Are they the same height? They don't look the same height in this picture.
Okay, that's my point. They are the same height.
Well, people lie about their heights all the time, right? So I'm sure, you know, Alan Iverson was always listed as 6'1". He was actually 5'10".
Right. People, you know.
I get that. I get that.
But presidents don't do this. My fact checker wants me to point out here that we don't actually know Allen Iverson's real height.
Or Netanyahu's height. Or whether or not Saddam Hussein had body doubles.
But this is the joy of debating a conspiracy theorist. Inevitably, you run out of patience or just don't know the facts well enough to continue pushing back.
So whenever I debate dad, it feels like I can never do enough research or compile enough evidence. Later in the summer, I was reading a science journal and saw a possible way around that.
This research group was doing some experiments where they had some conspiracy theorists engage in conversations with AI chatbots, which had all the facts,

could push back gently, and unlike me, had infinite patience. The data on its effectiveness

looked pretty promising, so I reached out and actually got them to program something special

just for my dad to try, which he did for several minutes. To be honest, it didn't say anything

that I hadn't already heard. Swing and a miss, but the work continues.
In August, Dad got it in his head that Kamala Harris was going to be replaced as a Democratic nominee at the convention. And out of nowhere, he made a second political conspiracy bet, this time with my mom.
The terms. If mom lost, she'd have to give up, as he put it, all mainstream media for the rest of the year.
And if he lost, he'd have to stop watching Julie Green entirely, his favorite prophet. Much to mom and I's delight, he lost that bet a few days later when Harris officially accepted the nomination.
Your father's in his silk robe and he's got a cocktail. Yeah, drink up, buddy.
So dad, so no more Julie Green till the end of the year? Correct. How do you feel about that?

I'm disappointed, but it's okay.

I have other resources.

It did feel like a relief that he wouldn't be watching Julie Green anymore.

And him admitting he was wrong, that was something.

By the fall, Dad and I were speaking more than ever, and in ways we never have. Do you feel like I know you now better? Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, you know me, these conversations, and just talking about my dad, and all the rest. Absolutely.
And of course, football season was kicking off, so there were lots of calls and voicemails about Ohio State.

Three penalties on this drive against Ohio State, and now Johnson waiting back.

It's like they should have thrown on first down, at least second down.

Anyway, I'll talk to you at halftime.

Dad and I were getting along better than ever, but time on our bet was running out.

We're down to the last four months, last third of the year. How do you feel about that? Impatient.
I really thought more would have happened by now. You know, I don't think I ever asked you this and i should should have asked you why did you challenge me to this bet oh why did i challenge you to this bet that's a good question i'm um i wanted to get your attention like what do you mean by that well because i wanted you to believe that um god is still active and alive and still um in control of the world and i thought this would be a concrete

way for you to see that and experience that um man that's i i didn't think about it that way

Thank you. and experience that um man that's i i didn't think about it that way so it's sort of about you wanting me to get closer to god yeah i mean that i think that's very touching i think you're like super wrong about these predictions, but that your reasoning is very touching.
Okay. Like I, I, I appreciate that.
Anyways. Okay.
I'm, I'm going to let's, let's end on a high note. Okay.
Sounds good. We'll talk to you soon.
Sounds good. Love you guys.
Hey, and you know what, Zach, this alone has been well worth it all the conversations we've had this alone i mean to be perfectly honest if i had to pay you 50 grand for the time we've spent together every penny's been worth it uh well i can't handle you saying things like that.

This is like too nice.

This is like too sweet.

It's too sweet.

I appreciate it, Dad.

It's actually been really nice talking to you, too.

All right. All right.
Take care. You, too.
Good night. As we stretch into November, dad, Mom, and I got hit with some sad news.
After a year of nearly no contact with my father, my sister informed the family that she wouldn't be coming home for the holidays, which, in my lifetime, I count only three times we've ever missed the holidays together. Why aren't you coming home for Christmas? Because I don't want to be there.

I feel like I'm going to cry.

I think last year was so terrible.

Incredibly terrible for me.

And the thought of being back in that space feels awful. Why would I choose that? I'm not going to get okay with him believing that I'm somebody that I'm not and wanting so badly for me to be something else.
And it's hard because I say that and then I immediately think, well, that's what I want from him. I want him to fundamentally change who he is and be a different person.
That's where I feel stuck. It's like when you when we both we want the same things from each other.
And I don't know if that's possible. I don't know either.
The bet was nearly over, but it felt like our family was barely hanging on. Then December came.
It was just days before Christmas, days before I was flying home, and mom called me with another update. Hey, how are you? A lot going on in the last 12 hours.

She began to fill me in. The night before, Mom and Dad were talking about the state of the family over dinner.
And I told him that he was welcome to come Christmas Eve. but that likely Christmas day

you and I would do something by ourselves.

And he got very upset. And we had a, I mean, I can't remember exactly all the parts of the conversation but I said the the reasoning way how I got to this place was the situation with Kira and then you know I I was tolerant of his religious journey um I can be tolerant of political differences but when he started following the um the youtube shit profit the profit stuff and and what i feel is fake news and all of the doom and gloom and generators and flats of water and granola bars all over the place.
I said, I just, I can't anymore. I just can't anymore.
A 40-year history is just not enough for me. We are already living very, very separate lives.
Separate realities. Yeah, and separate realities.
I didn't say that. He said that he's not going to change his religious viewpoints.
He's not going to change. And then I just said it.
And I just don't see a path where this marriage can continue. I don't see a path for me.
And what did he say? He sort of didn't really respond. After 40 years of marriage, they had agreed to separate and for my dad to move out.
Dad's beliefs around Kira, the conspiracies, it had just become too much. I'm embarrassed to say the situation with Kira wasn't the one that knocked it over.
But I was ever hopeful that he would come to a reality about that. But what I realized is that he's beyond redemption at this point.
There's this little piece of me that is like, you have this conversation with him on January 1st. His list is debunked.
He will realize if he steps back

and looks at the whole picture

that he's not

grounded in any reality

and that he'll have an awakening

and I will have a marriage and a family.

So this was the situation I flew home to. Things felt weird.
I spent the week crashing at friends' houses and in hotels. Mom slept in Kira's room.
Christmas Day, as you can imagine, was sad. There were no gifts exchanged.
Mom and I just went to the movies and ate Chinese food. I'm not even sure what my father or sister got up to that day.
A few days later, Dad said he was ready to sit down and close out the bet. Coming up, somebody's going to need to say, as promised, you were right, I was wrong.
Which can be such a powerful thing in any relationship. That's in a minute.
It's Cogger Public Radio when our program continues. This is American Life, my real class.
Our show today, 10 Things I Don't Want to Hate About You, about Zach Mack and his year-long bet with his dad. We arrived at the end of December.

Zach's family is not doing well, and there's still the bet.

I know this sounds crazy because as bad as things had gotten,

dad was still excited about settling up. I had no idea what he was going to say,

but as we often are, we started off pretty playfully, which is our way of postponing the hard stuff. All right.
Okay, here we go. All right.
Hand me the wine here. Oh, I should go get my list, right? Yeah, go get your list.
Yeah, let me just have it, too, so I can look at it and see if there's anything i can pretend happened well at least so far we're sharing a reality okay uh i'm just going to go through the list for your 10 predictions for the year we'll start there okay we'll start with the easy ones there's four that can easily be grouped together and that is barack ob Obama will be convicted of treason. Joe Biden will be convicted of treason.
Nancy Pelosi convicted of treason. The Clintons convicted of treason and murder.
Right? Those are all kind of, I would group them categorically. I began.
No investigations, no charges, no convictions, literally no momentum of any kind. And yes, I fully hoped that would take place before the end of 2024.
But that has not taken place. If you're keeping score at home, that's four for me.
All right, next one. You said Trump will be reinstated without an election.
Trump won re-election. He was not reinstated without an election.
That's five. Next prediction.
Trump will have all charges dropped on May 30th, 2024. Trump was found guilty and convicted on 34 felony charges in the New York hush money trial.
Yeah. To be fair to dad, charges in two other cases were dropped, but dad's prediction was all charges.
So that makes six for me. Moving on, next one.
You said Governor Hochul, the governor of New York, would be removed from office. Governor Hochul is currently in office with no charges being brought against her.
She will be up for re-election in 2026. That is correct.
Seven, onto the home stretch. Biden will be removed from office.
Okay. So Biden's still in the26.
That is correct. Seven.
Onto the home stretch. Biden will be removed from office.
So Biden's still in the White House. You're not rebutting that.
Yeah, well, because somebody pretending to be the Biden is in the White House. And we're back to body doubles.
But even still, he conceded the point. So that's eight.
Okay, then there's Eric Adams, the mayor of New York, who Dad predicted would be removed from office, which still might happen. But Dad said by the end of 2024.
As it stands right now, he's still the mayor. Right.
Tough break, but that makes nine. Okay, last one.
Our country would come under martial law. As far as I know, that didn't happen? That did not happen.
Okay. Any rebuttals there? I'm very happy that that didn't happen.
And that makes 10. However.
Oh, no. I still see that as a strong possibility of happening.
I think it still has a strong possibility of happening within the next two months. Here we go.
And I still am 100% positive that all of these are true. Even though none of them came true.
Even though none of them have been actualized by the end of 2024. So your explanation for why these things did not yet come to pass is that you just got the timeline wrong.
Yes. We're sort of starting where we're ending, which is you still believe what you believe, and I still believe that that's false.
Correct. I had waited for so long to hear him say the magic words we agreed to a year ago.

Now the moment finally came.

Wow, Zach, I was wrong.

And, um, and what?

And not only were you wrong. And you were correct.

To tell you the truth, hearing this was completely unsatisfying,

because I knew he didn't really believe it. I had won the bet, but it didn't really feel like winning.
I just see sort of an unwillingness for you to be wrong. Wrong about 10 things.
I'm going to admit I was wrong about the timeline on all 10 things. But you see how you prefaced it.
Not that you're wrong about them. You're just wrong about the timeline.
Yeah, but that's still a type of wrong. Sure, but it's a half measure.
It's a way for you to be right. I can't say I was surprised.
All year long, I had read about how unlikely it is to pull someone away from these kinds of beliefs. How when believers of a prophecy witness it not come to pass, that oftentimes they inexplicably double down, which was exactly what he was doing.
All of these beliefs, it feels like you're really holding on to them, and I'm not sure why. Because I know they're true.
Why am I going to abandon truth? Why would I believe a lie? Why would I give that up? And it's not an arrogant thing. It's a knowing in my soul and in my spirit.
So, yeah, I mean, I can't abandon the truth. I was getting nowhere, and it was frustrating.
But I thought, this is history repeating itself. Surely he could see that, right? One of the things I've thought a lot about during this process is, like, is your dad? And what happened to him? And in the face of so many people around him, including yourself, saying, hey, you're going down the wrong road.
Don't do this. Please listen.
And he wouldn't hear it from anyone. Okay.
And it cost him his life. I see a lot of parallels with what's happening right now.
Interesting.

I don't think you're at risk of physical danger so much. Yeah.
I think you're at risk of a lot of other things. Like what? Financial ruin.
I think you're at risk of being ostracized and like completely left out of this family dynamic. That would break my heart, but I see that.
You're at risk reputationally. How so? I feel like the closest friends in your life, your the you know the people around you are telling you hey you're going the wrong way and you're not you're not listening actually none of them are saying that to me none of them none of them okay the only people who've said that are you and mom.
So if all those people told you, would you hear them? I would listen to them. I probably wouldn't change, but I'd listen to them.
I take it into consideration. You don't think that sounds like your dad? That aspect of it, yeah.
But my dad had trouble living in reality. I don't have trouble living in reality.
I would argue that you do. I mean, look at the state of our family right now.
And I think we've gotten to this place in large part because of your beliefs. Well, we've gotten here completely because of a difference in beliefs.
Yeah, you can point the finger at me and say it's because of your beliefs. well that's partially true, but it's simultaneously because of the three of your beliefs, right? And I understand your beliefs, but I don't believe that way.
I'm not going to pretend I believe that way. And I know you guys don't want me just to pretend.
You want me to embrace it and live it and think it and breathe it the same way you do. I can't do that.
Therefore, it creates a wedge, right? Yeah. But it doesn't have to.
I think the post-COVID years have really magnified and polarized people.

Yeah.

But I would say that's when you got radicalized.

I don't think ultimately Mom, Kira, and I have changed a lot ideologically since that time.

I don't think you're in the same place. I can agree with that.
I see that. I have made more significant changes in the past four years in terms of my own spiritual awareness and spiritual growth.
Yeah. And that certainly, I know, feels and looks very radical.

Let's talk about mom for a second.

I think your mom, I don't know what I think about her anymore. I mean, I don't think negative about her other than she's lost and confused.
I mean, I guess she would say that about you. Probably, and a lot worse.
I continue to love your mom, but this is the irony. She sits in judgment of me and therefore judges me unworthy of being her partner and husband anymore.
I mean, short of pretending to be somebody who I'm not, I don't see a solution. Yeah.

I agree.

I watched his frustration rise as he came up empty over and over,

slowly realizing there was no fixing this.

I mean, look, I think this year has been difficult,

especially recently. I do feel like we are getting along really well.
I do feel conflicted because as that's happening, you and mom are getting separated and Kira's not home for Christmas. And those are all because of your beliefs.
I can accept you and love you. And have my beliefs and accept your beliefs.
You can't accept my beliefs without judging me. You don't think you're judging Kira? Not at all.
I love my daughter. I love Kira.
I know that you do. I would never.
I would never disown my daughter. But I think Kira does feel rejected.
She does not feel fully accepted by you. Yeah, I get that.
It's not about rejection. See, that's how you guys label it, but it's not rejection.
It's about looking at it from a spiritual viewpoint where this is not what God wants for her.

As the conversation wound down, I let go of any notion that I could convince him of anything.

I was finally ready to stop struggling and just accept the truth.

I couldn't help him.

I just want to say I do really appreciate...

Oh, man. Sorry.
It's been a hard year, man. Yeah.
I mean, I appreciate the conversations we've had all year. Like, I do feel i don't know i feel closer to you than i ever have and i'm i'm really sad about the state of this family yeah but i i do appreciate your openness, your willingness to...
You never ducked a hard question. No need to.
I don't know. I mean, where do you think we'll be next Christmas? I don't know.
I have no idea. Yeah.
I have no idea, man. I can't even think that far ahead.
Yeah. I have one final question for you.

Okay.

How are you going to pay me?

Check?

Should we go to the bank?

Should I get one of those giant golf checks?

I figured you'd probably want small, unmarked bills. Yeah.

Non-sequential.

Yes.

So did you bring a suitcase? I have a gym bag. Okay.
We'll fill that puppy up. Let's do it.
We made the bed a year ago, but I've waited a lot longer than that to have this conversation with him. All right.
Let's get a hug. Oh, I love you

I love you too

as we stood there hugging

I just broke down

I'm sorry

I'm sorry I don't know what comes next, where the family goes from here.

It felt like things fell apart so quickly, but also slowly over many years.

I think in many ways, I'm the one who got off the easiest.

I'm still in good standing with everyone, which makes me feel a mixture of relief and guilt. And if you're wondering, yes, I took the money.
Absolutely. Okay.
We're walking to the Rose Bowl. Yeah.
How do you feel? But on New Year's Day, the day my dad officially lost the bet, I took him to go see Ohio State, our favorite football team, play in the Rose Bowl. What do you think the score's gonna be? And paid for everything.
I think it's gonna be 31 to 22 bucks. Yet another prediction my father got wrong, by the way.
But they did win. Go Buckeyes.
Let's go!

All right! Let's go!

It felt good to treat Dad with his own money, and

to agree on the one reality we've always

shared. Football.

Maybe the only one we ever will.

As I watched

the clock run down, I knew

that the moment the game was over, we'd have

to face the fact that, as a family, in the end,

we didn't make it.

Zach Mack.

He's a producer at Vox Media.

This story was a collaboration with NPR's Embedded podcast, which, if you haven't heard them, you should check them out. They have lots of documentary stories like this.
David Kestenbaum on our staff worked on the story here. The staff who worked on it there were producers Dan Gurma and Ariana Garib-Lee.
Editing by Luis Treas. Katie Simon is Embedded showrunner.
Some original music in this episode was composed by Peter Leonard. Fact-checking by Greta Pittinger and the Embedded staff and Christopher Sertala and our staff.
NBR's Embedded

is releasing a three-part series about Zach's met with his dad that gets into material that we did

not have time for here, including some revealing conversations with his dad's friends and some more

interesting stuff from Zach and his dad. It is available now.
You can find Embedded wherever you

get your podcasts. Well, today's episode was produced by Lily Sullivan.
The people who put together today's show include Fia Benin, Michael Comete, Aviva de Kornfeld, Angela Gervasi, Cassie Halley, Han and Jaffe Waltz, Seth Lynn, Catherine Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Nadia Raymond, Ryan Rummory, Alyssa Shipp, Francis Swanson, and Diane Wu. Our managing editor, Sara Abdurahman, our executive editor, is Emmanuel Berry.
Special thanks today to Avery Truffleman. If you like our show and you want more of our show, we've been cranking out bonus episodes every two weeks.
This week, the bonus episode is interviews with my cousin, the composer Philip Glass, including one where he sits at a piano and he explains what he hears when he listens to his own music. Do you get that? And all of our bonus episodes, we've been trying all kinds of stuff, become a life partner.
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Thanks, as always, to our show's co-founder, Mr. Tori Malatia.

Fun fact about him, he has never seen a panda.

He told me he's going to a zoo this weekend to do just that.

I think it will be very black and white.

I'm Eric Glass.

Back next week with more stories of This American Life. Why can't you see what you're doing to me When you don't believe a word I say Why don't you know I'm falling in a crowd I can't walk out

Because I love you too much, baby

Next week on the podcast of This American Life,

Brandon's first girlfriend dumped him

because he was too obsessed with sports.

So when he met Cecilia, he tried a new tactic.

They were out, and a friend asked him about the Celtics.

And he was like, I'm not that into sports anymore.

Even when the words came out of my mouth, I was sort of thinking, huh, you just said

that.

And then he had to live with that lie.

Lies that make no sense.