854: Ten Things I Don't Want to Hate About You

Speaker 1 Support for this American life comes from Indeed. Hiring isn't just about finding someone willing to take the job.
You need a person with the right background who can move your business forward.

Speaker 1 Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes with Indeed-sponsored jobs. Receive a $75 sponsored job credit with Indeed sponsored jobs at indeed.com slash American.

Speaker 1 Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way, with Indeed.

Speaker 1 A quick warning, there are curse words words that are un-beeped in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org.

Speaker 3 I think we all have people in our lives who we love, but there's no talking to them. They have the way of seeing things or doing things.
It's hard to take.

Speaker 3 And no matter how you try to talk it out, it goes nowhere. It doesn't get solved.
Even if they also want things to change.

Speaker 3 We're devoting our entire show today to a story like that. It's from Zach Mack, who's a reporter.

Speaker 3 And the story is about him and his dad, and how they both wanted to mend a rift that had grown between them that lasted for years, but they couldn't figure out how

Speaker 3 until Zach's dad offered a very surprising way out.

Speaker 3 That's going to be our whole show today. His dad's unusual solution and how it played out.
That's all I'm going to say for now from WBEZ Chicago. It's this American Life.
I'm Aaron Glass.

Speaker 3 And with that, I turn things over to Zach.

Speaker 2 This all started about a year ago. My father called and left me this message.

Speaker 4 Hey, Zach, dad again.

Speaker 4 Good conversation last week, last night.

Speaker 4 Hey, I didn't remember to tell you this because I was kind of tired, but

Speaker 4 they're going to shut us down again, and it's going to be a worse shutdown than 2020 because of this EMP,

Speaker 4 all the supply lines are going to be disrupted. So you really want to store up two months worth of food and water

Speaker 4 because they probably won't be able to pump water throughout the city because that's all controlled by computers and electronics. And the EMP is going to shut down everything electronic.

Speaker 2 My dad's talking about something called an electromagnetic pulse, EMP for short, which I only only know about because it's what George Clooney uses in the movie Oceans 11 to pull off the casino heist.

Speaker 6 What's a pinch?

Speaker 2 A pinch is a device which creates like a cardiac arrest for any broadband electrical circuitry. An electromagnetic pulse which shuts down any power source within its blast radius.

Speaker 6 You should buy enough water.

Speaker 2 I can't remember a single other time dad left me a message expressing a safety concern, but he was really convinced this was going to happen.

Speaker 2 At one point, he even did a little math for how much water I would need to survive.

Speaker 4 So I would buy, you know, 60

Speaker 4 times 10, which is 600 ounces. I know, I know it sounds like conspiracy theory, but

Speaker 4 they're going to do this. This is what they're planning, and I just want to have you be prepared, okay?

Speaker 2 Okay, so just a little background. I wouldn't describe my father as a paranoid person.
I wouldn't even call him an anxious person. He's actually an optimist and usually prefers to keep things light.

Speaker 2 So a lot of dad jokes. What else?

Speaker 2 He's held down the same job forever. He has friends, not close ones, but there's dudes he goes skiing and sailing with.

Speaker 2 When I was growing up, dad was kind of in his own world. Mom was always the more involved parent, the one who knew all my friends and whatever was going on with me.

Speaker 2 Dad and I have never been particularly close. Typically, when I hear from him on the phone, it's during an Ohio State football game.

Speaker 2 We both love the Buckeyes, so during a game, he'll call me like five or six times, but not much beyond games, though. Ohio State football is like the one thing we can't agree on.

Speaker 2 The thing we can't seem to agree on is reality.

Speaker 2 Like so many people, dad's gotten swept up in conspiracies.

Speaker 2 Lately, he's been talking about chemtrails, that the government can control the weather, that January 6th was staged by what he calls the deep state.

Speaker 2 As he's gotten more extreme in the last few years, I've seen my mom and sister retract and shut down around him. I'm typically the one who challenges dad on this stuff.

Speaker 2 Because I'm a reporter, I can't resist taking the bait.

Speaker 6 It's called denying us freedom of speech. No.
It's called denying us freedom of speech.

Speaker 2 It's misinformation.

Speaker 6 No.

Speaker 6 Who gets the right to label it misinformation?

Speaker 2 Of course, it never goes anywhere. Until a year ago,

Speaker 2 after a family blowout over the holidays that was so bad my sister and I left early, I decided to confront my father.

Speaker 2 I could see how his beliefs were starting to strain the family, and I worried that pretty soon, there may be no coming back for him.

Speaker 2 I told him I thought he was being radicalized online and pleaded with him to hear me. As always, he didn't agree.
But what he did next surprised me.

Speaker 2 Dad texted me a photo of a sheet of paper where, in his barely legible cursive, he had written out a list of 10 predictions.

Speaker 2 10 things that he was positive would all take place sometime in 2024, assuring me that when all of these things happened, I would see once and for all that he was right.

Speaker 2 At the bottom of the page was a challenge to a bet for $10,000.

Speaker 2 And let me just say, dad and I are not big gamblers, nor are we rich. 10K is easily more money than either of us has ever wagered.

Speaker 2 Looking over the list, I was a combination of surprised, horrified, and also, it was a little hard to take seriously. I immediately called him up to discuss the terms of the bet.

Speaker 7 Do you have the list in front of you?

Speaker 8 Cause you, you.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Can you walk me through the one through 10? I just want to add each one, I'll probably have a couple clarifying questions.

Speaker 10 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 Keep in mind, this call took place back in January, 2024.

Speaker 10 Number one, Obama will be found guilty of treason in 2024.

Speaker 11 So, like by a court?

Speaker 8 Yes. Okay.

Speaker 7 Not the court of public opinion.

Speaker 8 Correct. Okay.

Speaker 7 And then number two?

Speaker 9 oh yeah

Speaker 10 Biden will be found guilty of treason in 2024

Speaker 7 just treason for something specific

Speaker 10 for for selling all those secrets that he had in the back of his Corvette

Speaker 7 I don't know if that's a joke I'm not sure

Speaker 10 it's partially a joke but it's also it's also real I mean, it could be

Speaker 2 this, all political.

Speaker 2 Dad's other predictions were that Nancy Pelosi would also be convicted of treason. Same for Bill and Hillary Clinton, who would go down for murder as well.
And murder.

Speaker 2 That Trump would be reinstated without an election and cleared of all charges.

Speaker 2 That Biden would be removed from office. Same for both the governor and mayor of New York.

Speaker 2 And as a New York City resident, I didn't hate that last one.

Speaker 7 You know, that one, I'm actually kind of hopeful. we get that one because i you know i'm not i don't really love eric adams he's kind of an idiot so i'm with you on that one yep he's a total idiot

Speaker 10 i'm and i'm impressed that you see that so good.

Speaker 10 One we can both cheer for.

Speaker 2 Eventually, we landed on his final prediction for 2024, his boldest one.

Speaker 10 Number 10. I threw this in because I thought you'd be excited about it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's an exciting one. It's probably the most exciting one.

Speaker 10 The U.S. will come under martial law in 2024

Speaker 10 because of mass rioting and chaos.

Speaker 10 So the military will have to step in.

Speaker 2 For the record, I was never actually excited about the possibility of this happening.

Speaker 7 Do you think this will be happening all over the country, only in certain parts?

Speaker 10 Well, the whole United States will come under martial law, and the biggest cities will be targeted. You know, New York, unfortunately, Washington, D.C.,

Speaker 10 the Bay Area.

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 7 You seem pretty confident about that.

Speaker 10 I am 100% confident.

Speaker 7 Because this is like a pretty, this is a pretty huge shakeup.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 7 I would say

Speaker 7 our country hasn't seen anything like this since the Civil War, probably.

Speaker 10 Well, not even in the Civil War.

Speaker 10 This is going to be the biggest shakeup to ever hit the United States of America and the world at large.

Speaker 7 I mean, I think the way you've laid it out here, there'll be a pretty clear case of like who's right and who's wrong. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Yeah. I think it will be very black and white.

Speaker 7 And if you are wrong,

Speaker 10 then you're $10,000 richer.

Speaker 7 Yeah, but look, I'm not, this isn't just about the money, right? I would, I would like to

Speaker 7 make some positive strides for our family.

Speaker 10 Well,

Speaker 11 I think that

Speaker 10 once you see that I haven't been duped by AI and social media and the algorithms, I think you will gain a lot more respect

Speaker 12 for

Speaker 10 who I am and how I think and how I've come to believe.

Speaker 10 The other thing I want to have you say after each one of these

Speaker 10 is that, wow, Dad, you were right and I was wrong.

Speaker 7 Same goes for you then.

Speaker 10 Okay, absolutely.

Speaker 8 All right.

Speaker 7 Deal.

Speaker 8 Happy to do it.

Speaker 2 And so our strange bet was on. I saw dad's challenge as an opening.
Instead of just arguing until the end of time, we were actually going to settle this. And now we had a deadline.
New Year's 2025.

Speaker 2 The moment I saw his proposal, I knew I had him beat. And for the very first time, he'd have to admit he was wrong.

Speaker 2 All I had to do was wait 12 months, and once he decisively lost, I figured he'd be more open to my version of the truth. And maybe I could pull him back to reality a bit.

Speaker 2 And the timing for the bet couldn't be better because his beliefs were starting to tear our family apart.

Speaker 3 Coming up, Zach calls his mom, who has some news of her own, stay with us.

Speaker 3 And the following message comes from FreshWorks. Software is a choice that can make or break a business, create better or worse experiences, propel or throttle growth.

Speaker 3 Too often, so-called solutions end up becoming blockers instead of enablers.

Speaker 3 Freshworks builds uncomplicated service software designed to deliver exceptional customer and employee experiences with enterprise-grade solutions.

Speaker 3 Their AI-assisted IT and customer service software is purpose-built to eliminate friction, make employees more effective, and make organizations more productive.

Speaker 1 Learn more at freshworks.com.

Speaker 1 Support for this American Life comes from Superhuman, the AI productivity suite that gives you superpowers everywhere you work.

Speaker 1 With Grammarly, Mail, and Coda coming together, you get proactive help across your workflow so you can outsmart the chaos. Experience AI that proactively helps you go from to-do to done faster.

Speaker 1 Unleash your superhuman potential today. Learn more at superhuman.com/slash podcast.
That's superhuman.com/slash podcast.

Speaker 2 They met in their 20s in Chicago, fell in love, and moved to California, where they eventually had my sister and I.

Speaker 2 We grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, a pretty liberal place, which worked for my mom because she's a pretty liberal Jewish woman.

Speaker 2 Dad has always been the odd man out, the lone Christian conservative. Though growing up, he was much quieter about his beliefs.
And when my parents met, neither of them were religious.

Speaker 2 But dad got back into it when I was young. Now he's very into it.
That's been difficult for my parents for decades. But now with the conspiracy stuff emerging, it's been really hard on my mom.

Speaker 14 It's getting pretty crazy, and I don't even know half of it. You know, we have two generators in the house.
There are now eight flats of water in the garage that he bought at Costco

Speaker 14 and some kind of fancy water filter system that was a couple hundred dollars.

Speaker 14 He's stockpiling weird food.

Speaker 7 What kind of food?

Speaker 14 You know, 12 cans of canned chicken.

Speaker 14 And I'm like, I have never eaten canned chicken. You have never eaten canned chicken.
Why is there canned chicken? And I feel like returning it all this week while he's not home.

Speaker 14 And he moved some money without my permission.

Speaker 7 How did he do that? He didn't need your sign-off?

Speaker 14 No, because it's a joint account. And he withdrew from a joint account without telling me and made a purchase he knew I would never approve.

Speaker 8 What was it?

Speaker 14 He bought a precious metal.

Speaker 2 Because dad's worried the banks are going to collapse. He wants to move big chunks of their money into things like platinum and silver.

Speaker 7 Why is he so unwilling to listen to

Speaker 7 everyone around him?

Speaker 14 I don't know. I wish I knew because then I could crack it.
I don't know how to pull him back.

Speaker 14 I have been very clear that I'm not sure how much more

Speaker 14 I can take.

Speaker 11 And have you been clear with him about that?

Speaker 14 Yeah, and I've even said, you know, I'm considering leaving.

Speaker 14 ending the marriage.

Speaker 7 You said that to him?

Speaker 14 Yeah, which is very hard for me to say because

Speaker 14 I'm

Speaker 14 69.

Speaker 14 I'm about to retire.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 14 Not necessarily the life I had planned for myself to be alone.

Speaker 14 But what kind of life do I have now?

Speaker 2 Mom was initially irritated by the bet because dad didn't run it by her first, which happens a lot. But the idea of a deadline, that was starting to make sense to her.

Speaker 14 I need an end point. And so the end point is December 31st.

Speaker 14 When January 1st comes around,

Speaker 14 things have to change.

Speaker 14 I'm only going to put up. I can barely put up with it now.
And I can't put up with it after that.

Speaker 2 Later, I called my sister Kira about the bet.

Speaker 2 Unfortunately, she's been having her own conflict with dad, also about his beliefs. Two years ago, Kira came out to him.

Speaker 2 My mom and I had known for years, but Kira was always afraid to tell dad because she thought he'd disapprove. It didn't go well.

Speaker 2 He said he'd always loved my sister, but he thought she was choosing to be gay, and he didn't agree with that choice.

Speaker 14 I think the hardest part.

Speaker 14 is that he like looked at me and told me that I was wrong about myself and that he was right. And I don't understand how he could know that.

Speaker 2 Kira and I are close. And when I told her about the bet, she liked the idea of forcing dad to confront the reality that some of his beliefs are likely wrong.

Speaker 2 But we weren't sure if that helped her situation either way.

Speaker 14 So like, let's say

Speaker 14 these things don't come true and he's willing to say like, I was wrong about these things. I don't feel like that would affect his beliefs around me.

Speaker 14 Like even if he's right about everything else, I'm probably still going to be gay after that.

Speaker 2 So dad and I had a year.

Speaker 2 January came and went and neither of us put any points on the board with the bet.

Speaker 2 Then in February, dad caught a small break with Mayor Adams. He had been under investigation for months and things were heating up.

Speaker 2 The FBI raided one of his advisors and someone else pled guilty to conspiracy charges. It seemed like Dad could actually win that one.

Speaker 2 Then in March, the New York governor sent the National Guard into the subway, which, if you squint, could look like the pretense to martial law.

Speaker 2 While we waited for the other predictions to come true or not, tried to make the most of the time.

Speaker 2 I found myself thinking back to something Dad said to me at the end of an argument once a few years back. He said, well, you don't really know me.

Speaker 2 And I wondered if he might be right, that maybe I didn't really know him.

Speaker 2 And if I had any hope of changing his mind or even nudging the trajectory of his beliefs, I would need to understand my father better.

Speaker 2 So I decided to make a project of it. One question I still had was how he'd even gotten here.
Though looking back, there were signs.

Speaker 2 I remember my mom telling me about how when I was a child, dad didn't want me to get vaccinated. Mom wasn't having it, so I ended up getting all my shots.

Speaker 2 But I never really understood where dad's hang-ups came from. But now that we had some time to kill, I could ask him.

Speaker 7 I know throughout my lifetime, you have been distrusting of vaccines. Is that fair to say?

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 10 Yeah, that's definitely true.

Speaker 7 I'm wondering when that began.

Speaker 10 Well, the seed was planted actually

Speaker 10 when before I went to school.

Speaker 7 As a child.

Speaker 10 As a child.

Speaker 2 Back in the 60s, dad was about to enter elementary school in Ohio, and there was a new law requiring vaccines.

Speaker 10 Now, you remember, grandpa, my dad, was a chiropractor. And so he believed in natural immunity

Speaker 10 and the body's ability to heal itself. And so he was an anti-vaxxer.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 10 And I mean, we didn't call him that back then, but it's the same difference. And I just wanted to go to school.
And I kept telling my dad and my mom, hey, it's okay. You know,

Speaker 10 I'm not afraid of the vaccination. You know, I'm willing to go.

Speaker 9 And,

Speaker 10 you know, I just want to go to school. So

Speaker 10 I was not able to go to kindergarten because we couldn't find a school that would accept me without a vaccination.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

Speaker 7 So you didn't go to kindergarten?

Speaker 10 I did not go to kindergarten.

Speaker 7 Would you do you think your dad was,

Speaker 7 I don't know, how would you describe him? Would you describe him as stubborn?

Speaker 11 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 10 Stubborn, very opinionated, hard-headed at times.

Speaker 2 Dad was one one of six children. The family was supported primarily by my grandpa, who had a small chiropractic business.
That is, until the Ohio State Medical Board cracked down on him.

Speaker 16 And so they literally threw my dad in jail for a couple of days for practicing without a license.

Speaker 2 The way dad tells it, after my grandfather's business dissolved, he was never able to recover.

Speaker 16 He became so depressed that he literally couldn't get out of bed for like six months. And he was never the same man.
That literally broke him.

Speaker 9 Wow.

Speaker 7 And how old were you when this happened?

Speaker 16 I was like 13 or 14 years old.

Speaker 2 One of the things I remember most about my grandfather is how tall and thin he was. And how one time when he came to visit us, his body had just completely changed.

Speaker 2 He had suddenly gained over 100 pounds in a very short amount of time.

Speaker 2 He was going through some mental health issues that the family never fully understood, and it was affecting his weight and his ability to sleep.

Speaker 2 He wouldn't really sleep during the night, which meant that throughout the day, he would constantly fall asleep.

Speaker 2 He'd be in the middle of a conversation sometimes, or even at dinner, and he'd just start snoring. Minutes later, he'd abruptly wake up and carry on as if nothing happened.

Speaker 2 This also began to happen while he was driving. My grandpa got into a number of car accidents.
He totaled several cars and nearly killed my grandmother.

Speaker 2 He refused to stop driving and even went to a neighboring state to get a driver's license after his was taken away. He refused to admit anything was wrong.
The family tried to talk to him.

Speaker 2 So did my father several times. And when that didn't work, and I'd never heard this part of the story before, dad tried something else.

Speaker 16 I wrote him a long letter. I wrote him like a two or three page letter and mailed it to him.

Speaker 16 because I wanted him to be able to read the whole letter so I could finish what I really wanted to say to him without interruption.

Speaker 16 And I said, you know, dad, I love you. I want the best for you.
You know, I'm not trying to say

Speaker 16 anything horrible or damaging or critical about you, but your whole family is concerned about you.

Speaker 12 Can't you see this?

Speaker 16 Can't you recognize that we all would like to see you live to a ripe old age? Because I said, if you continue on this path, I don't know when you're going to die, but I know you're going to die.

Speaker 8 So.

Speaker 2 Not long after this, I was 10 years old at the time. My parents called my sister and me into the kitchen to tell us something.
But before they said anything, I already knew. My grandfather was dead.

Speaker 2 His vehicle veered off the road and flipped over. When I think about my grandfather, I think about how what caused his death may have been stubbornness, a refusal to listen to those around him.

Speaker 2 He was 68 years old, the same age my father was when he proposed our bet.

Speaker 2 As the year pressed on, we continued discussing dad's life and the things he'd come to believe. Turns out a lot of his predictions were coming from a single source online.

Speaker 2 And something you should know about my father is that he really struggles with technology. He can barely navigate the internet.

Speaker 2 He can't even figure out how to access his own email account from his laptop. Around 2019, Dad got an iPad and that felt like a turning point.
It wasn't long until he started saying weird things.

Speaker 2 One time I was home visiting and we got into it because he was trying to tell me that the government was controlling Facebook from the very beginning and that Mark Zuckerberg was just a pawn.

Speaker 2 And when the pandemic hit, it felt like the perfect storm. Like so many of us did when searching for answers.

Speaker 10 I was googling around, trying to find someone who I thought was

Speaker 10 reputable, reliable, and truly plugged into God.

Speaker 10 I was trying to

Speaker 10 find someone who

Speaker 10 a legitimate prophet because there's a lot of false prophets out there.

Speaker 2 What dad found was a lot of conspiracies, of course, but also the next evolution of his faith.

Speaker 2 During the pandemic, dad came to believe strongly in prophecy, the idea that God still speaks through intermediaries.

Speaker 2 When you're talking about how God speaks today, and you believe it's through prophets,

Speaker 2 that is a divisive within Christianity, right? That is a divisive thought. Very divisive.

Speaker 2 Why do you believe it?

Speaker 6 Because

Speaker 6 he's always had prophets

Speaker 6 and

Speaker 6 it makes sense that just like he had prophets in Old Testament times,

Speaker 6 he would continue with it. Why would he suddenly stop?

Speaker 6 I never quite understood why God

Speaker 6 stop talking to his people.

Speaker 2 Sure enough, dad found someone he believes can commune directly with God.

Speaker 17 I am the great revealer.

Speaker 2 Meet Julie Green, my dad's preferred prophet.

Speaker 17 A great fall is coming, a fall of a global cabal.

Speaker 17 My children, 2024 will be a year like no other.

Speaker 10 I firmly believe that. God did lead me to Julie Green.

Speaker 2 She's not particularly big online, a couple hundred thousand subscribers but she's part of a growing movement within christianity that emphasizes spiritual warfare and politics it's all very trumpy

Speaker 2 and full of prophecies secrets in the white house are about to be revealed the obamas the clintons adam shiff mitch mcconnell chuck schumer nancy plosi as you can probably tell this is where dad's getting most of his predictions And when I talk to dad about these predictions, it's clear that for him, they all stem from his religious beliefs.

Speaker 2 Which I've always found somewhat confusing because when I look at his list, none of these things seem to have anything to do with God at all.

Speaker 2 In July, some news. President Biden announced he was withdrawing as the Democratic nominee for president.
I thought, what was Dad's prediction again? Oh, he said removed from office.

Speaker 2 Guess I'm in the clear.

Speaker 2 As the years sped by, I read books with titles like When When Prophecy Fails, I spoke to a number of clinicians and conspiracy experts, met my dad's pastors, I even interviewed several of his friends.

Speaker 2 None of them shared his beliefs, but they said they didn't really argue with him about it either. Only one said it hurt their friendship with dad.

Speaker 2 Sometimes I'd send dad highlights of articles debunking some of his more out there claims. Like the one about how the Joe Biden you see on the news is actually a body double.

Speaker 6 Well, it's actually a common practice in a lot of third world countries.

Speaker 6 Look at Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein had,

Speaker 6 they aren't even sure, but over a half a dozen body doubles.

Speaker 6 That's why he could appear

Speaker 6 in one part of the country one day and someplace else another day.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't think they were like giving speeches and, you know, making policy on his behalf, though. You know what I'm saying? I think they were just like maybe like a quick button.

Speaker 6 But mostly they were, yeah, they were just appearances. Fun Fun fact: while we're talking about body devils,

Speaker 6 when

Speaker 6 the Biden,

Speaker 6 well, because it's a body devil.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 6 The last time Netanyahu,

Speaker 6 who's the Israeli prime minister, came to visit the U.S. here in Washington, D.C.,

Speaker 6 it was interesting that

Speaker 6 the fake Biden stood six inches taller than Netanyahu.

Speaker 6 Netanyahu and Biden are both listed to be five feet ten inches tall. So don't you find it interesting that when they were standing side by side in

Speaker 6 a couple of photos, that

Speaker 6 Biden was suddenly six inches taller?

Speaker 2 Well, first of all, Biden's listed height is six feet. Let's see what Netanyahu's height is.

Speaker 2 He's also six feet, it says.

Speaker 6 Okay, Okay, yeah, they're the same height. The point is, they're the same height.
I thought it was 5'10. So, yeah, so it's six feet.

Speaker 2 Are you talking about this image?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah, he looks a little taller.

Speaker 2 Well, but he's taller in every picture. This is a different place.

Speaker 6 Are they the same height?

Speaker 2 They don't look the same height in this sense.

Speaker 6 Okay, that's my point.

Speaker 6 They are the same height.

Speaker 2 Well, people lie about their heights all the time, right? So I'm sure, you know,

Speaker 2 Alan Iverson was always listed as 6'1. He was actually 5'10, right? People, you know.

Speaker 2 i get that i get that but presidents don't do this my fact checker wants me to point out here that we don't actually know alan iverson's real height or netanyahu's height or whether or not saddam hussein had body doubles but this is the joy of debating a conspiracy theorist inevitably you run out of patience or just don't know the facts well enough to continue pushing back So whenever I debate dad, it feels like I can never do enough research or compile enough evidence.

Speaker 2 Later in the summer, I was reading a science journal and saw a possible way around that.

Speaker 2 This research group was doing some experiments where they had some conspiracy theorists engage in conversations with AI chatbots, which had all the facts, could push back gently, and unlike me, had infinite patience.

Speaker 2 The data on its effectiveness looked pretty promising, so I reached out and actually got them to program something special just for my dad to try, which he did for several minutes.

Speaker 10 To be honest, it

Speaker 10 didn't say anything

Speaker 11 that I hadn't already heard.

Speaker 2 Swing and a miss, but the work continues.

Speaker 2 In August, Dad got it in his head that Kamala Harris was going to be replaced as a Democratic nominee at the convention.

Speaker 2 And out of nowhere, he made a second political conspiracy bet, this time with my mom. The terms.
If mom lost, she'd have to give up, as he put it, all mainstream media for the rest of the year.

Speaker 2 And if he lost, he'd have to stop watching Julie Green entirely, his favorite prophet. Much to mom and I's delight, he lost that bet a few days later when Harris officially accepted the nomination.

Speaker 14 Your father's in his silk robe and he's got a cocktail.

Speaker 7 Yeah, drink up, buddy.

Speaker 7 So, dad, so no more Julie Green to the end of the year?

Speaker 2 Correct.

Speaker 7 How do you feel about that?

Speaker 10 I'm disappointed, but it's okay.

Speaker 5 I have other resources.

Speaker 2 It did feel like a relief that he wouldn't be watching Julie Green anymore. And him admitting he was wrong, that was something.

Speaker 2 By the fall, dad and I were speaking more than ever, and in ways we never have.

Speaker 7 Do you feel like I know you now better?

Speaker 12 Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 16 Yeah, you know me.

Speaker 16 These conversations and just talking about my dad and all the rest. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 And of course, football season was kicking off, so there were lots of calls and voicemails about Ohio State.

Speaker 3 Three penalties on this drive against Ohio State. And now Johnson waiting back.

Speaker 4 Like they should have thrown on first down or at least second down.

Speaker 4 Anyway, I'll talk to you at halftime.

Speaker 2 Dad and I were getting along better than ever, but time on our bet was running out.

Speaker 3 We're down to the last four months, last third of the year.

Speaker 7 How do you feel about that?

Speaker 3 I'm impatient.

Speaker 10 I really thought more would have happened by now.

Speaker 7 You know, I don't think I ever asked you this, and I should have asked you.

Speaker 2 Why did you challenge me to this bet?

Speaker 10 Oh, why did I challenge you to this bet? That's a good question.

Speaker 10 I wanted to get your attention.

Speaker 2 Like, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 10 Well, because I wanted you to believe that

Speaker 10 God is still active and alive and still

Speaker 16 in control of the world.

Speaker 10 And I thought this would be a concrete way

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 16 you to see that and experience that.

Speaker 11 Man, that's,

Speaker 7 I, I didn't think about it that way.

Speaker 7 So it's sort of about you wanting me to get closer to God.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 7 I mean, that I think that's very touching.

Speaker 11 I think you're like super wrong about all these predictions, but that your reasoning is very touching.

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 11 Like, I, I, I appreciate that.

Speaker 11 Anyways, okay.

Speaker 7 I'm, I'm going to, let's, let's end on a high note.

Speaker 10 Okay, sounds good. We'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 11 Sounds good. Love you guys.

Speaker 10 Hey, and you know what, Zach? Huh? This alone has been well worth it. All the conversations we've had, this alone,

Speaker 10 I mean, to be perfectly honest, if I had to pay you 50 grand for the time we've spent together,

Speaker 10 every penny's been worth it.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 7 I can't handle you saying things like that. It's like too nice.

Speaker 8 It's like too sweet. It's too sweet.

Speaker 7 I appreciate it, Dad.

Speaker 2 It's actually been really nice talking to you too. All right.

Speaker 2 All right. Take care.

Speaker 7 You too. Good night.

Speaker 2 As we stretched into November, Dad, Mom, and I got hit with some sad news.

Speaker 2 After a year of nearly no contact with my father, my sister informed the family that she wouldn't be coming home for the holidays, which in my lifetime, I count only three times we've ever missed the holidays together.

Speaker 2 Why aren't you coming home for Christmas?

Speaker 14 Because I don't want to be there.

Speaker 14 I feel like I'm going to cry.

Speaker 14 I think last year was

Speaker 14 so terrible,

Speaker 14 incredibly terrible for me. And the thought of being back in that space feels awful.

Speaker 14 Why would I choose that?

Speaker 14 I'm not going to get okay with him

Speaker 14 believing that I'm somebody that I'm not and wanting so badly for me to be

Speaker 14 something else. And it's hard because I say that and then I immediately think, well, that's what I want from him.
I want him to fundamentally change who he is and be a different person.

Speaker 14 That's where I feel stuck is like when you, when we both, we want the same things from each other. And I don't know if that's possible.

Speaker 2 I don't know either.

Speaker 2 The bet was nearly over, but it felt like our family was barely hanging on.

Speaker 2 Then December came. It was just days before Christmas, days before I was flying home, and mom called me with another update.

Speaker 7 Hey, how are you?

Speaker 8 A lot

Speaker 13 going on in the last 12 hours.

Speaker 2 She began to fill me in. Things are just the night before, mom and dad were talking about the state of the family over dinner.

Speaker 13 And I told him that

Speaker 13 he was welcome to come Christmas Eve,

Speaker 9 but

Speaker 13 that likely Christmas Day, you and I would do something

Speaker 13 by ourselves.

Speaker 13 And he got very upset.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 9 we

Speaker 18 had a,

Speaker 13 I mean, I can't remember exactly all the parts of the conversation, but like I said, the reasoning way how I got to this place was

Speaker 13 the situation with Kira. And then, you know, I was tolerant of his religious journey.

Speaker 8 I

Speaker 13 can be tolerant of political differences.

Speaker 13 But when he started following the

Speaker 13 YouTube shit,

Speaker 13 the profit stuff and

Speaker 13 what I feel is fake news, and all of the doom and gloom and generators, and

Speaker 13 flats of water, and granola bars all over the place. I said, I just,

Speaker 13 I, I can't anymore. I just can't anymore.
A 40-year history is just not enough for me. We are already living very, very separate lives.

Speaker 8 Separate realities.

Speaker 13 Yeah, and separate reality. I didn't say that.

Speaker 13 He said that he's not

Speaker 13 going to change his religious viewpoints. He's not going to change.

Speaker 13 And then I just said it. And then I just don't see,

Speaker 13 I don't see a path where this marriage can continue. I don't see a path for me.

Speaker 2 And what did he say?

Speaker 13 He sort of didn't really respond.

Speaker 2 After 40 years of marriage, they had agreed to separate and for my dad to move out.

Speaker 2 Dad's beliefs around Kira, the conspiracies, it had just become too much.

Speaker 13 I'm embarrassed to say the situation with Kira wasn't the one that knocked it over.

Speaker 9 But

Speaker 18 I was ever hopeful

Speaker 8 that he would come to a reality about that.

Speaker 13 But what I realized is that

Speaker 13 he's beyond redemption at this point.

Speaker 13 There's this little piece of me

Speaker 18 that is like

Speaker 13 you have this conversation with him on January 1st.

Speaker 13 His list

Speaker 13 is

Speaker 8 debunked.

Speaker 13 He will realize

Speaker 13 if he steps back and looks at the whole picture,

Speaker 13 that he's not grounded in any reality

Speaker 13 and that he'll have an awakening

Speaker 13 and I will have a marriage and a family.

Speaker 2 So this was the situation I flew home to. Things felt weird.
I spent the week crashing at friends' houses and in hotels. Mom slept in Kira's room.
Christmas Day, as you can imagine, was sad.

Speaker 2 There were no gifts exchanged. Mom and I just went to the movies and ate Chinese food.
I'm not even sure what my father or sister got up to that day.

Speaker 2 A few days later, dad said he was ready to sit down and close out the bet.

Speaker 3 Coming up, somebody's going to need to say, as promised, you were right, I was wrong. Which can be such a powerful thing in any relationship.
That's in a minute.

Speaker 3 Chaka Bubba Radio when our program continues.

Speaker 1 Support for this American life comes from GoodRX. Cold and flu symptoms got you down? Find relief with GoodRX.
You can save an average of $53 on flu treatments.

Speaker 1 Plus, save on cold medications, decongestants, and more. Easily compare prescription prices and instantly find discounts of up to 80%.

Speaker 1 GoodRX is not insurance, but works with or without it and could beat your copay price. Save on cold and flu prescriptions at goodrx.com slash T-A-L.

Speaker 1 Support for this American Life comes from BetterHelp. This month, BetterHelp's encouraging people to reach out.
grab lunch with a friend, call your parents, or even find support in therapy.

Speaker 1 BetterHelp makes it easy with its therapist match commitment and over 12 years of experience matching users with qualified professionals.

Speaker 1 Just like that lunch with a friend, once you reach out, you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner. Go to betterhelp.com/slash TAL for 10% off your first month.

Speaker 1 Support for this American Life comes from Mint Mobile. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no.
No contracts, no monthly bills, no hidden fees. Plans start at $15 a month.

Speaker 1 Make the switch at mintmobile.com slash American. That's mintmobile.com slash American.
Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month.

Speaker 1 Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan.
Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

Speaker 3 This is American Life, Myra Glass. Our show today.
10 Things I Don't Want to Hate About You, about Zach Mac and his year-long bet with his dad.

Speaker 3 We've arrived at the end of December. Zach's family is not doing well,

Speaker 3 and there's still the bet.

Speaker 2 I know this sounds crazy, because as bad as things had gotten, dad was still excited about settling up.

Speaker 2 I had no idea what he was going to say, but as we often are, we started off pretty playfully, which is our way of postponing the hard stuff.

Speaker 2 All right. Okay, here we go.

Speaker 6 Hand me the

Speaker 2 wine here.

Speaker 6 Oh, I should go get my list, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, go get your list. Yeah,

Speaker 6 let me just have it too, so I can look at it and

Speaker 6 see if there's anything I can

Speaker 6 pretend happened.

Speaker 2 Well, at least so far, we're sharing a reality.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I'm just going to go through the list for your 10 predictions for the year. We'll start there.
Okay. We'll start with the easy ones.
There's four that can easily be grouped together, and that is

Speaker 2 Barack Obama will be convicted of treason, Joe Biden will be convicted of treason, Nancy Pelosi Pelosi convicted of treason. The Clintons convicted of treason and murder.
Right.

Speaker 2 Those are all kind of, I would group them categorically.

Speaker 2 I began.

Speaker 2 No investigations, no charges, no convictions, literally no momentum of any kind.

Speaker 6 And yes, I fully hoped that would take place before the end of 2024, but that has not taken place.

Speaker 2 If you're keeping score at home, that's four for me. All right, next one.
You said Trump will be reinstated without an election. Trump won re-election.
He was not reinstated without an election.

Speaker 2 That's five. Next prediction.
Trump will have all charges dropped on May 30th, 2024. Trump was found guilty and convicted on 34 felony charges in the New York Hush Money Trial.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 To be fair to Dad, charges in two other cases were dropped.

Speaker 2 But Dad's prediction was all charges. So that makes six for me.
Moving on. Next one.

Speaker 2 You said Governor Hochul, the governor of New York, would be removed from office. Governor Hochul is currently in office with no charges being brought against her.

Speaker 2 She will be up for re-election in 2026.

Speaker 6 That is correct.

Speaker 2 Seven. No rebuttal there.
Onto the home stretch. Biden will be removed from office.
Okay. So Biden's still in the White House.

Speaker 2 You're not rebutting that.

Speaker 6 Yeah, well, because

Speaker 6 somebody pretending to be the Biden is in the White House. Okay.

Speaker 2 And we're back to body doubles. But even still, he conceded the point.
So that's eight.

Speaker 2 Okay, then there's Eric Adams, the mayor of New York, who dad predicted would be removed from office, which still might happen. But dad said by the end of 2024.

Speaker 2 As it stands right now, he's still the mayor. Right.

Speaker 2 Tough break, but that makes nine. Okay, last one.
Our country would come under martial law. As far as I know, that didn't happen?

Speaker 6 That did not happen.

Speaker 2 Okay, no, any rebuttals there?

Speaker 6 I'm very happy that that didn't happen.

Speaker 2 And that makes 10.

Speaker 6 However,

Speaker 6 I still see that as a strong possibility of happening.

Speaker 6 I think it still has a strong possibility of happening within the next two months.

Speaker 2 Here we go.

Speaker 6 And I still am 100% positive that all of these are true.

Speaker 2 Even though none of them came true.

Speaker 6 Even though none of them have been actualized by the end of 2024.

Speaker 2 So, your explanation for why these things did not yet come to pass is that you just got the timeline wrong.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 We're sort of starting where we're ending, which is you still believe what you believe, and I still believe that that's false. Correct.

Speaker 2 I had waited for so long to hear him say the magic words we agreed to a year ago. Now the moment finally came.

Speaker 6 Wow, Zach, I was wrong.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 what?

Speaker 2 And not only were you.

Speaker 6 And you were correct.

Speaker 2 To tell you the truth, hearing this was completely unsatisfying because I knew he didn't really believe it. I had won the bet, but it didn't really feel like winning.

Speaker 2 I just see sort of an unwillingness to

Speaker 2 for you to be wrong.

Speaker 6 Wrong about 10 things.

Speaker 6 I'm going to admit I was wrong about the timeline on all 10 things.

Speaker 2 I've been wrong. See how you prefaced it.
I've been wrong. Not that you're wrong about them.
You're just wrong about the timeline.

Speaker 6 Yeah, but that's still a type of wrong.

Speaker 2 Sure, but it's a half measure. It's a way for you to be right.

Speaker 2 I can't say I was surprised.

Speaker 2 All year long, I had read about how unlikely it is to pull someone away from these kinds of beliefs.

Speaker 2 How when believers of a prophecy witness it not come to pass,

Speaker 2 that oftentimes they inexplicably double down, which was exactly what he was doing. All of these beliefs, it feels like you're really holding on to them, and I'm not sure why.

Speaker 6 Because

Speaker 6 I know they're true.

Speaker 16 Why am I going to abandon truth?

Speaker 6 Why would I believe a lie? Why would I give that up?

Speaker 6 And it's not an arrogant thing, it's it's it's it's a knowing in my in my soul and in my spirit.

Speaker 6 So, yeah, I mean,

Speaker 6 I can't abandon the truth.

Speaker 2 I was getting nowhere and it was frustrating. But I thought, this is history repeating itself.
Surely he could see that, right?

Speaker 2 One of the things I've thought a lot about during this process is like, is your dad and what happened to him? And in the face of...

Speaker 2 So many people around him, including yourself, saying,

Speaker 2 hey, you're going down the wrong road. Like, don't do this.
Please listen.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he wouldn't hear it from anyone. Okay.
And it cost him his life.

Speaker 2 I see a lot of parallels with what's happening right now.

Speaker 6 Interesting.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't think you're at risk of

Speaker 2 physical danger so much. Yeah.
I think you're at risk of a lot of other things.

Speaker 6 like what

Speaker 2 financial ruin

Speaker 2 I think you're at risk of being

Speaker 2 ostracized and like completely left out of this family dynamic that would break my heart but I think you're I see that you're at risk reputationally

Speaker 6 how so

Speaker 2 I feel like the closest friends in your life, your family, you know, the people around you are telling you, hey, you're going the wrong way and

Speaker 2 you're not listening.

Speaker 6 Actually, none of them are saying that to me.

Speaker 2 None of them?

Speaker 6 None of them.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 6 The only people who've said that are you

Speaker 6 and mom.

Speaker 2 So if all those people told you, would you hear them?

Speaker 6 I would listen to them.

Speaker 2 I probably

Speaker 6 wouldn't change, but I'd listen to them. I take it into consideration.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 2 you don't think that sounds like your dad?

Speaker 6 That aspect of it, yeah. But my dad,

Speaker 6 my dad had trouble living in reality. I don't have a trouble living in reality.

Speaker 2 I would argue that you do.

Speaker 2 I mean, look at the state of our family right now.

Speaker 2 And I think we've gotten to this place in large part because of your beliefs.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 6 we've gotten here completely because of a difference in beliefs.

Speaker 6 Yeah, you can point the finger at me and say, it's because of your beliefs.

Speaker 6 Well, that's partially true, but it's simultaneously because of your, the three of your beliefs, right?

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 I understand your beliefs,

Speaker 6 but I don't believe that way. I'm not going to pretend I believe that way.
And I know you guys don't want me just to pretend.

Speaker 6 You want me to embrace it

Speaker 6 and live it and think it and breathe it the same way you do. I can't do that.

Speaker 6 Therefore, it creates a wedge, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 6 But it doesn't have to.

Speaker 6 And I think

Speaker 6 the post-COVID years have really magnified and polarized people.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but I would say that's when you got radicalized.

Speaker 2 I don't think ultimately mom, Kira, and I

Speaker 2 have changed a lot ideologically since that time. I don't think you're in the same place.

Speaker 6 I can agree with that. I see that.
I have made more significant changes in the past four years

Speaker 6 in terms of my own spiritual awareness and spiritual growth.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 6 So, and that certainly

Speaker 6 I know feels and looks very radical.

Speaker 2 Let's talk about mom for a second.

Speaker 6 Oh, I think, I think, I think your mom,

Speaker 6 I don't know what I think about her anymore.

Speaker 6 I mean, I don't think negative about her other than she's lost and confused.

Speaker 2 I mean, I guess she would say that about you.

Speaker 6 Probably, and a lot worse.

Speaker 6 I continue to love your mom, but this is the irony.

Speaker 6 She sits in judgment of me and therefore

Speaker 6 judges me unworthy of

Speaker 6 being her partner and

Speaker 6 husband anymore.

Speaker 6 I mean, short of pretending to be somebody who I'm not,

Speaker 6 I don't see a solution.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 agree.

Speaker 2 I watched his frustration rise as he came up empty over and over, slowly realizing there was no fixing this. I mean, look, I think this year has been

Speaker 2 difficult,

Speaker 2 especially recently.

Speaker 2 I do feel like we are getting along really well.

Speaker 2 I do feel conflicted because as that's happening,

Speaker 2 you and mom are getting separated and Kira's not home for Christmas. And those are all because

Speaker 2 of your beliefs.

Speaker 6 I can accept you and love you and have

Speaker 6 my beliefs and accept your beliefs.

Speaker 6 You can't accept my beliefs without judging me.

Speaker 2 You don't think you're judging Kira? Not at all.

Speaker 6 I love my daughter. I love Kira.

Speaker 2 I know that you do.

Speaker 6 I would never, I would never disown my daughter.

Speaker 2 But I think Kira does feel rejected. She does not feel fully accepted by you.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I get that. It's not about rejection.
See, that's how you guys label it, but it's not rejection.

Speaker 6 It's about

Speaker 6 looking at it from a spiritual viewpoint where

Speaker 6 this is not what God wants for her.

Speaker 2 As the conversation wound down, I let go of any notion that I could convince him of anything.

Speaker 2 I was finally ready to stop struggling and just accept the truth.

Speaker 2 I couldn't help him.

Speaker 2 I just want to say I do

Speaker 2 really appreciate.

Speaker 2 Oh, man.

Speaker 9 Sorry.

Speaker 2 It's been

Speaker 3 a hard year, man.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 i mean i appreciate the conversations we've had all year like i've

Speaker 2 i do feel

Speaker 2 i don't know i feel closer to you than i ever have and

Speaker 2 i'm

Speaker 2 i'm really sad about the state of this family

Speaker 2 yeah but i i do appreciate your

Speaker 2 your openness, your willingness to

Speaker 2 you never ducked, you never ducked a hard question.

Speaker 6 No need to.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I mean,

Speaker 2 where do you think we'll be next Christmas?

Speaker 6 I don't know. I have no idea.
Yeah, I have no idea, man.

Speaker 6 I can't even think that far ahead.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I have one final question for you. Okay.

Speaker 2 How are you going to pay me?

Speaker 2 Check. Should we go to the bank? Should I get one of those giant golf checks?

Speaker 6 I figured you'd probably want small, unmarked bills. Yeah.
Non-sequential. Yes.
So did you bring a suitcase?

Speaker 2 I have a gym bag. Okay.

Speaker 6 We'll fill that puppy up.

Speaker 2 Let's do it. We made the bed a year ago, but I've waited a lot longer than that to have this conversation with him.

Speaker 2 All right, let's get a hug.

Speaker 2 Oh, I love you. I love it too.

Speaker 2 As we stood there hugging, I just broke down.

Speaker 6 I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 I don't know what comes next, where the family goes from here. It felt like things fell apart so quickly, but also slowly over many years.

Speaker 2 I think in many ways, I'm the one who got off the easiest. I'm still in good standing with everyone, which makes me feel a mixture of relief and guilt.

Speaker 2 And if you're wondering, yes, I took the money, absolutely. Okay, I mean, we're walking to the Rose Bowl.
Yeah, how do you feel? But on New Year's Day, the day my dad officially lost the bet,

Speaker 2 I took him to go see Ohio State, our favorite football team, play in the Rose Bowl. What do you think the score is going to be? And paid for everything.

Speaker 6 I think it's going to be

Speaker 6 31

Speaker 6 to

Speaker 6 22 bucks.

Speaker 2 Yet another prediction my father got wrong, by the way. But they did win.
Go, Buckeyes. Let's go!

Speaker 2 A race!

Speaker 2 Let's go!

Speaker 2 It felt good to treat dad with his own money and to agree on the one reality we've always shared. Football.
Maybe the only one we ever will.

Speaker 2 As I watched the clock run down, I knew that the moment the game was over, we'd have to face the fact that, as a family, in the end,

Speaker 2 we didn't didn't make it.

Speaker 3 Zach Mack. He's a producer at Vox Media.
His story was a collaboration with NPR's embedded podcast, which, if you haven't heard them, you should check them out.

Speaker 3 They have lots of documentary stories like this. David Kestenbaum and our staff worked on the story here.
The staff who worked on it there were producers Dan Gurma and Ariana Garab Lee.

Speaker 3 Editing by Luis Traeus. Katie Simon is Embedded Showrunner.
Some original music in this episode was composed by Peter Leonard.

Speaker 3 Fact-checking by Greta Pittinger and the Embedded staff, and Chris Doris Otalo and our staff.

Speaker 3 NBR is Embedded is releasing a three-part series about Zach's bet with his dad that gets into material that we did not have time for here, including some revealing conversations with his dad's friends and some more interesting stuff from Zach and his dad.

Speaker 3 It is available now. You can find Embedded wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 3 We can't go on together

Speaker 3 with suspicious plans.

Speaker 3 And we can build our dreams

Speaker 3 on suspicious plans.

Speaker 3 Well, today's episode was produced by Lily Sullivan.

Speaker 3 The people who put together today's show include Thea Bennon, Michael Cometea, Aviva DeKornfeld, Angela Dravasi, Cassie Halley, Hananjafi Walt, Seth Lynn, Catherine Raymondo, Stone Nelson, Nadia Raymond, Ryan Rummery, Alyssa Shipp, Frances Swanson, and Diane Wu.

Speaker 3 Our managing editor, Sarah Abdurrahman, our executive editor is Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks today to Avery Truffleman.

Speaker 3 If you like our show and you want more of our show, we've been cranking out bonus episodes every two weeks.

Speaker 3 This week, the bonus episode is interviews with my cousin, the composer Philip Glass, including one where he sits at a piano and he explains what he hears when he listens to his own music.

Speaker 3 To get that and all of our bonus episodes, we've been trying all kinds of stuff, become a life partner. When you do, you also get ad-free listening.

Speaker 3 You get the special archive of over 100 greatest hits episodes that show up right in your podcast feed for your convenience. How do you get all this? It could not be easier.

Speaker 3 Go to thisamericanlife.org slash life partners. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
Thanks, as always, to our show's co-founder, Ms.

Speaker 3 Tori Malatia. Fun fact about him, he has never seen a panda.
He told me he's going to a zoo this weekend to do just that.

Speaker 10 I think it will be very black and white.

Speaker 3 I'm Eric Glass. Back next week, more stories of this American life.

Speaker 2 Why can't you see

Speaker 2 what you're doing for me

Speaker 2 when you don't believe a word I say?

Speaker 2 Don't you know I'm

Speaker 2 on a trap?

Speaker 2 I can't walk out

Speaker 2 rather

Speaker 2 than be part of

Speaker 3 Next week on the podcast of This American Life, Brendan's first girlfriend dumped him because he was too obsessed with sports. So when he met Cecilia, he tried a new tactic.

Speaker 3 They were out, and a friend asked him about the Celtics. And he was like, I'm not that into sports anymore.

Speaker 4 Even when the words came out of my mouth, I was sort of thinking, huh, you just said that.

Speaker 3 And then he had to live with that lie. Lies does that make no sense? Next week on the podcast on your local public radio station.

Speaker 19 Support for NPR and the following message come from Warby Parker, the one-stop shop for all your vision needs. They offer expertly crafted prescription eyewear, plus contacts, eye exams, and more.

Speaker 19 For everything you need to see, visit your nearest Warby Parker store or head to warbyparker.com.

Speaker 20 This message comes from Jackson. Seek clarity in retirement planning at jackson.com.

Speaker 20 Jackson is short for Jackson Financial Inc., Jackson National Life Insurance Company, Lansing, Michigan, and Jackson National Life Insurance Company of New York. Purchase New York.