Living on Mars

Speaker 1 Today explained Shop Robinson outside the Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. to ask, would you want to live on Mars? No, I wouldn't want to live on Mars.
No.

Speaker 1 I just think simply it's just too dangerous.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, hell yeah, of course.

Speaker 4 It'd be cool to see something different and be pioneers.

Speaker 1 Even with the risk involved?

Speaker 4 I mean, we risk our lives when we walk out here on the streets.

Speaker 1 No, I would miss my family.

Speaker 6 They're all here.

Speaker 1 I would not want to leave them behind.

Speaker 3 If I got paid for it, yeah.

Speaker 1 How much did you want to get paid for it?

Speaker 3 $10,000.

Speaker 2 That's it?

Speaker 3 Yeah. You got to ask for more.
Okay, $1 million.

Speaker 1 That's more like it.

Speaker 8 No, because the risk of death is too high.

Speaker 6 What are the risks?

Speaker 8 Have you seen The Martian?

Speaker 1 With Matt Damon?

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Living on Mars on Today Explained from Vox.

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Speaker 10 Today explained Sean Ramasveram here with biologist Kelly Wienersmith, who's the co-author of a book called A City on Mars. All about our subject today, settling Mars.

Speaker 11 Yeah, so Elon Musk wants a self-sustaining settlement. So he wants a backup for humanity.

Speaker 6 Having two planets that are both self-sustaining

Speaker 6 and strong, I think is going to be incredibly important for the long-term survival of civilization.

Speaker 11 Jeff Bezos wants us to move heavy industry to space to save Earth and move population from Earth to space.

Speaker 6 We can move all heavy industry and all polluting industry off of Earth and operate it in space.

Speaker 11 And then other common arguments are, are, you know, space resources will make us rich.

Speaker 6 The first trillionaire in the world is going to be the person who first mines asteroids.

Speaker 11 Space will allow humans to spread out. We won't fight over land anymore, so it will make war either obsolete or at least a lot less common.

Speaker 6 I would love to see, you know,

Speaker 6 a trillion humans living in the solar system.

Speaker 11 But the arguments that I think are the best are that we need a backup for humanity, but I totally disagree with Musk on the timeline.

Speaker 9 Elon Musk has said that his company, SpaceX, can get humans to Mars as early as 2029.

Speaker 11 And I think most people, if you push, what they really want to say is that space is awesome and no one has a right to stop them.

Speaker 11 And so that argument holds as long as the thing you're doing really doesn't hurt anyone.

Speaker 11 And by the end of the book, it wasn't clear to us that that was the case, because if we end up for a scramble for territory in space between nuclear-wielding superpowers, that could have implications for all of us.

Speaker 11 So it is an activity activity that impacts us all.

Speaker 10 We've been talking about Mars for a while on this show. I think we need to just start from square one.

Speaker 10 Like, how do we go about getting humans to Mars?

Speaker 11 Yeah, so the trip to Mars is going to be a long one.

Speaker 11 With current technology, it will take somewhere between six to nine months to get there. During that trip, you're going to be exposed to space radiation.

Speaker 11 Yes, we'll have shielding, but shielding is heavy and expensive, so we might not have all the shielding that we need.

Speaker 11 Additionally, none of the current proposals include spacecraft that are rotating, so that would create artificial gravity.

Speaker 11 So during this trip, you're going to be seeing the loss of bone and muscle and maybe even vision that we see on astronauts on the space stations.

Speaker 11 So it could be, you know, not just a dangerous trip, but also a trip where your body is sort of breaking down along the way.

Speaker 10 And then hopefully you're still alive when you get there.

Speaker 11 Yeah, fingers crossed.

Speaker 10 When people are generally talking about space settlements, what exactly might that look like on Mars? Would it just look like Earth?

Speaker 6 I don't think so.

Speaker 11 No, no, it's not going to look like Earth at all. And I think most of the people who want to go to Mars are totally comfortable with that idea.

Speaker 11 But like, you know, a typical day on Mars, you would wake up in an underground bunker because radiation is raining down on the surface of Mars because Mars doesn't have the radiation protections we have here on Earth.

Speaker 11 So most of the proposals include living underground. You can't step outside of your habitat because Mars has 1% of the atmosphere of Earth, and that's too low for our bodies to survive.

Speaker 11 So, like, the nitrogen would bubble out of your blood and kill you.

Speaker 11 Probably not a great way to go. So, no going outside.
A lot of the day is going to be spent on things like subsistence farming.

Speaker 11 It's going to be hard to grow our own food and do the recycling that we would need to do to make these habitats sustainable.

Speaker 11 And probably a lot of exercise because 40% of Earth's gravity might not be enough to keep our muscles strong and our bones strong.

Speaker 10 It's funny to think of this toxic, deathly,

Speaker 10 desolate planet being the sort of salvation for humanity, because what you're describing right now sounds

Speaker 10 not exactly like

Speaker 10 something that's going to save us.

Speaker 11 Yeah, but so the rest of space sucks even more is the thing. So, you know, like, Mars has some good stuff.
So it has a day and night cycle that's pretty close to Earth.

Speaker 11 So that'll feel kind of home-like. The temperature swings on Mars are pretty moderate compared to what you find on a lot of other planets.

Speaker 11 And it has a lot of the building blocks that we're going to need to live. It's got oxygen and carbon and water just about everywhere.
You got to work a little hard to find it.

Speaker 11 You got to clean out some chemicals to make it drinkable. But all the stuff we need is there.
So I think... You can imagine a day when you would have a self-sustaining settlement on Mars.

Speaker 11 And it's hard to imagine that happening just about anywhere else in the solar system.

Speaker 10 Okay, so let's say we get to that settlement and whatever, there's a group of a half dozen or a dozen people living up there. We've talked about some of the physical challenges.

Speaker 10 What about the psychological ones?

Speaker 11 Yeah, those could be pretty intense.

Speaker 11 So you're going to need plans for how to provide them with support. You might want to send a psychologist with you on this trip because they're not going to be able to make calls home.

Speaker 11 So, you know, if you're on the International Space Station and you're bummed out, you can call your wife.

Speaker 11 You know, they're close enough. It works.
But Mars has a communication delay that's a minimum of three minutes and as much as like 20 to 22 minutes.

Speaker 11 And sometimes when Mars is on the other side of the Sun from Earth, you can't call at all.

Speaker 11 So all of your support needs to be self-contained because you're not going to be able to have, you know, live calls with your girlfriend, your mother, your psychiatrist, any of those things.

Speaker 11 And it's probably going to be a little boring. So you'll want to plan ahead.
You'll want to bring Netflix if you can.

Speaker 10 There's also this idea of like terraforming Mars and making it more Earth-like, right? Would that help? Is that even possible?

Speaker 11 I mean, it may technically be possible.

Speaker 11 I mean, when you think about how awful Mars is and the lengths that you'd have to go to to terraform it, it seems crazy when you think about how, you know, we're dealing with a two degrees Celsius increase in temperature here on Earth and it's causing us all these problems.

Speaker 11 The idea that we could control the Martian climate to get it to be Earth-like is a bit out there, but most of the proposals involve things like dropping nuclear weapons on the poles to liberate the water vapor, which would get trapped in Mars' thin atmosphere and slowly warm things up.

Speaker 6 There's the fast way and the slow way.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 12 Give me the fast way.

Speaker 6 The fast way has dropped their nuclear weapons over the poles.

Speaker 2 You're a super villain.

Speaker 2 That's what a super villain does. Yeah.

Speaker 11 This would be something that would take decades, maybe hundreds of years to accomplish.

Speaker 11 And it's not really clear according to international law that you're allowed to do that. So Mars and all of the rest of space belongs to all of humanity.

Speaker 11 So before you go dropping nuclear weapons on Mars, you should probably get the whole international community to give that activity the thumbs up.

Speaker 11 And I'm not super optimistic that would go down well at the UN.

Speaker 10 I'm glad you brought up the UN. Who's in charge up there?

Speaker 11 Well, it depends on where the Martians came from. So according to international law, somebody is in charge of people or corporations once they go.

Speaker 11 So if Elon Musk, through SpaceX, sends a bunch of United States citizens to space, then the United States would be in charge of making sure that the Martians continued to follow international law.

Speaker 10 And if it's China, it's China.

Speaker 11 And yep, that's right.

Speaker 10 But there's the potential for conflict there, too, of course.

Speaker 11 Absolutely. Yeah.
So international law. is not clear about what you're allowed to do once you're up there.
So you're not allowed to claim sovereignty over anything in space.

Speaker 11 So Musk can't go up there and claim a nation that he calls Muscow or something like that. But you can land,

Speaker 11 you can land anywhere you want and then never leave. And it looks like you can extract resources and sell them.
And so, you know, whereas the first space race was just to get.

Speaker 11 to the moon first and step on it and then go home, it looks like this new space race is going to be between the United States and China.

Speaker 11 And now it's about grabbing the best parts of space and staying there so that even if you don't call them, you know, China and the U.S.

Speaker 11 part two, you're still essentially keeping them just for yourself.

Speaker 10 You know, it's funny. Our last show about Mars, we talked about this sort of potential for humanity to work together to accomplish remarkable things out in space as sort of a motivating factor.

Speaker 10 Is there any chance that, like, instead of maybe ending up in some turf war with China or whomever else in Mars one day, like right now, as we're starting to hatch plans to do this, we could collaborate with our adversaries.

Speaker 10 Is anyone talking about that?

Speaker 11 There's absolutely people who are trying to get all the parties together to figure out a plan that makes everybody happy so that you don't end up with this scramble.

Speaker 11 This is why I call myself in the book a space bastard. Am I allowed to say bastard on your show? I can say a space jerk.

Speaker 10 No, you're allowed to say bastard.

Speaker 11 Okay, great. Yeah.
A space bastard because, you know, you go to space settlement conferences and people say all of these beautiful things.

Speaker 11 And I also am inspired and awed by space, but I think that when you're taking on a task where people could die and there could be implications for people back here on Earth, it's important that you also be clear-eyed about, you know, the kinds of things that humans do.

Speaker 11 But I hope that we figure out a path forward that's peaceful.

Speaker 10 Kelly Wienersmith, Space Bastard, or Space Jerk, if the kids are around, she's got a podcast. It's called Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.
Check it out.

Speaker 10 I don't know where you land on Mars, but for me, it's like, why not both? Why not work on all our earthly problems while exploring space to the best of our abilities? Why not both?

Speaker 10 An astrophysicist will tell us why not both when we're back on Today Explained.

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Speaker 6 Hello, Earth.

Speaker 6 Hey, hello, what?

Speaker 7 If that's the Earth, where the heck am I?

Speaker 6 My name is Adam Becker, and I am

Speaker 6 a journalist, author, and astrophysicist. Perfect.
What a combo.

Speaker 10 Thanks. Tell me about the author part.

Speaker 10 What have you written?

Speaker 6 Books? Yeah, I've written two books. And the more recent one is called More Everything Forever.

Speaker 6 And it is about the horrible ideas that tech billionaires have about the future that they're trying to shove down our throats and why they don't work.

Speaker 10 Is one of them Mars?

Speaker 6 One of them is Mars, yeah.

Speaker 10 So you think Mars is a horrible idea?

Speaker 6 Mars is a horrible idea. Mars is a terrible place.

Speaker 10 But you're an astrophysicist slash author slash journalist, which means at some point you were a young child who dreamt of space. And part of the dream of space is Mars, right?

Speaker 6 Sure, yeah. No, I mean, when I was a kid, I thought that the future was just in space.

Speaker 6 You know, I watched a lot of Star Trek, right? Because I'm a huge nerd and I was

Speaker 6 like a young, growing nerd. And a young, growing nerd needs to consume healthy amounts amounts of Star Trek in order to grow up to be like a big strong nerd.

Speaker 6 And when I was a kid, I sort of thought of Star Trek as kind of like a documentary about the future, not like literally a documentary, but I thought, yeah, this is what we're shooting for.

Speaker 6 This is what we want. We want to be in space.
That's where the good future is.

Speaker 6 And then I grew up.

Speaker 10 Notably, there weren't a lot of billionaires on Star Trek, or they didn't talk about it at least.

Speaker 6 No, in fact, what they talked about was that there was no money. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century.
No money? You mean you don't get paid?

Speaker 6 The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

Speaker 10 So you grow up and you see the intersection of space and money,

Speaker 10 and you kind of change your mind about how you feel about space? Or at least Mars?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, look, I love space, right? You know, I did a PhD in astrophysics astrophysics for a reason. I love space.
I think that space research

Speaker 6 and like exploring space with robots and, you know, satellites is amazing. But yeah, seeing billionaires turning space into another kind of status icon for the ultra-wealthy, it's gross.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 6 You know, Musk talks about Mars as if it's the inevitable future of humanity and that, you know, going to Mars is a project to sort of save humanity, like some giant philanthropic effort.

Speaker 6 And it's just nonsense.

Speaker 6 He says we got to go to Mars in case there's a disaster here on Earth, and we've got to put a million people on Mars by 2050, and they got to be able to survive even if the rockets from Earth stop coming.

Speaker 6 The fundamental fork in the road for human destiny is where Mars can continue to grow even if the supply shifts from Earth stop coming for any reason. I'm like, dude, that is not happening.

Speaker 6 Mars is awful, and there is nothing that could happen to Earth that would make it a worse place than Mars.

Speaker 10 Okay,

Speaker 10 what about the Bezos argument for space colonization?

Speaker 6 I mean, look.

Speaker 10 I hate to be in the position of trying to like devil's advocate for these billionaires, but I'm just curious what you make of their arguments.

Speaker 6 Okay, I will say one nice thing about one billionaire, right? Jeff Bezos got it right about Mars. Jeff Bezos, I think at one point made fun of Musk for promoting Mars.
He's like, Mars sucks.

Speaker 6 I'm like, yeah, you know what? Jeff Bezos is right. Mars does suck.
It's everything he said after that that was a problem, right? Because Bezos also has a specific vision for space.

Speaker 6 He says, oh, well, we need to go out into space to live in hundreds of thousands or millions of enormous space stations

Speaker 6 so we can have a trillion humans living in space in a couple of centuries. If we had a trillion humans, we would have at any given time a thousand Mozarts and a thousand Einsteins.

Speaker 10 And before you tell us what you think of that idea,

Speaker 10 we see a lot of this in the science fiction that we love to watch. Oh yeah, yeah, totally.
From Star Trek to interstellar

Speaker 10 to 2001 a space Odyssey.

Speaker 6 Space, a final frontier.

Speaker 2 Endurance rotation is 67, 68 RPM.

Speaker 1 Okay, get ready to match our spam with the retro thrusters.

Speaker 7 It's not possible.

Speaker 6 No,

Speaker 1 it's necessary. Open the pod bay doors, Hel.

Speaker 6 I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
But,

Speaker 6 you know, science fiction is fiction, right? It is a set of stories that we tell.

Speaker 6 And we tell those stories not to predict the future, but to say, oh, what if we use this as a setting to explore some question about

Speaker 6 being a human?

Speaker 6 One of the great science fiction authors of all time, Ursula Guin,

Speaker 6 said that science fiction is not a guide to the future and that science fiction authors are not not good guides to the future, and that that's not what the subject is about.

Speaker 6 But I think, like any good millennial, there are tweets that live rent-free in my head, and one of them is the torment nexus tweet, where it says something like, science fiction author in my book, I created the torment nexus as a cautionary tale.

Speaker 6 Tech billionaire, at long last, we've created the torment nexus from classic science fiction novel, Don't Create the Torment Nexus.

Speaker 6 I agree that

Speaker 6 science fiction can give us something to aspire to, but it's not the literal technology in the science fiction stories.

Speaker 6 One of the things I love about Star Trek is it does show a kind of future to aspire to in terms of how the people relate to each other and the kind of world that they've built, independent of the technology.

Speaker 6 You know, Star Trek was groundbreaking even in the original series in terms of, you know, showing a diverse group of people on an aspirational mission of exploration and self-actualization and working together as friends to explore the world that we live in.

Speaker 8 I understand, Mr. Spark.

Speaker 8 The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity.

Speaker 6 And the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty. That is a future to aspire to.
That is not what Jeff Bezos has in mind. Jeff Bezos' idea

Speaker 6 is to put a trillion people in space, and he says he wants this

Speaker 6 because if we stay here on Earth in a few centuries, we're going to run out of resources and run out of energy. And he's right about that.
That's true.

Speaker 6 If you just assume the current rate of constant growth in usage of energy, then a few centuries after that, 700 or 1,000 years after that, you're using all of the energy output of the sun.

Speaker 10 But what you're saying is there's an alternate, and that is to not use all of our resources.

Speaker 6 Yeah, or at least to, you know,

Speaker 6 safeguard them more wisely and use them, you know, in a more sustainable way.

Speaker 10 It sounds like for all you disagree on with these tech billionaires when it comes to Mars or space colonization, like we all have to agree that life on Earth is not infinite.

Speaker 6 Sure.

Speaker 10 Our sun, the source of life here on Earth, will eventually die. Yes.
And I know it's very far away. It is.
But we made it to the moon.

Speaker 10 And making it to Mars feels like it could be,

Speaker 10 you know, a step in the right direction.

Speaker 10 And, we know, when I sat on the steps of the Air and Space Museum here in Washington, D.C., and asked people whether we should go to Mars or whether they would want to go to Mars.

Speaker 10 They don't talk about Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos.

Speaker 11 I think we need to see it. I think we need to expand what we know, what we see.

Speaker 10 They kind of talk about that idea that space is infinite and as a race, a human race.

Speaker 1 I just think it's a cool

Speaker 1 advancement for humankind and everything.

Speaker 10 It's something we should pursue.

Speaker 12 Do you have to push the limits of science to discover new things?

Speaker 10 Do you really think that we should skip the stepping stone just because

Speaker 10 these guys have some

Speaker 10 maybe wrong-headed ideas about why we should be taking that step in the first place?

Speaker 6 I mean, look, I don't think Mars sucks because the billionaires want to go there. I think Mars sucks and the billionaires want to go there.

Speaker 10 And you don't even see a reason to go there so that we can experiment with what it would be like to live on another planet long term.

Speaker 10 You don't even see a use for that because it might teach us something about the actual moonshot that we discover in a hundred or a thousand years, which is there's some planet in some distant galaxy that's just like home.

Speaker 6 Look, if we find a planet around another star, even in our own galaxy, forget distant galaxy, that's just like home, we're not going.

Speaker 6 It's not happening, okay? The speed of light limit is a hard stop.

Speaker 6 We are not

Speaker 6 going.

Speaker 6 And no one is coming to save us. And I find that hopeful.

Speaker 6 We have to save ourselves.

Speaker 6 There's a story, okay? And I don't know if this is true, I think it's apocryphal. That toward the end of his life, somebody asked the great architect and visionary R.

Speaker 6 Buckminster Fuller if he was sad that he was going to die without ever having gone to space.

Speaker 6 And his answer was: we're in space. We live in space.

Speaker 6 And we live in the most special and amazing place in space.

Speaker 6 This is a place that we evolved to live, and everything about it is so well suited for us. And it's not just the distance of the planet from our sun.
It's not just the mix of gases in our atmosphere.

Speaker 6 It is everything about this biosphere. We can eat the fruit off the trees.
We live in a place where food literally grows on trees. It's awesome!

Speaker 6 This is an amazing place, and we should continue to learn about the universe that we are a part of

Speaker 6 as we build a better home for ourselves here where we belong.

Speaker 11 That was Adam Becker.

Speaker 10 He's written two books. The most recent one is More Everything Forever, AI Overlords, Space Empires, and Silicon Valley's Crusade to Control the Fate of Humanity.

Speaker 10 Abishai Artsy produced today's show, which was made in collaboration with Vox's Future Perfect team. Jolie Myers, edited, Laura Bullard, check the facts, Patrick Boyd, mixed.

Speaker 10 You can listen to today Explain Sans ads by going to Vox.com/slash members, and you can listen to our Sunday show, Explain It To Me, tell you more about well, well, wellness here on Earth this weekend.

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Speaker 5 I'm Eli Patel, editor-in-chief of The Verge, and Decoder is my show about big ideas and other problems.

Speaker 5 We've talked a lot about generative AI on the show lately, which is a very big idea that is causing quite a few problems.

Speaker 5 And one thing we keep hearing about over and over again is that generative AI is causing a lot of problems in schools.

Speaker 5 There are a lot of people out there, including many of the listeners of the show who email us, who are worried about the obvious problem, students using ChatGPT to cheat on assignments.

Speaker 5 But when our team went and poked at the story, they found that the issues in education with AI go a lot deeper, to the very philosophy of education itself.

Speaker 12 If this technology becomes more ubiquitous, we'll have courses created by AI, graded by AI, with submissions from students absolutely generated by AI.

Speaker 12 So it begs the question: what are we even doing here in higher ed?

Speaker 6 This episode is presented by Salesforce.