Snow White and the Seven Controversies

Speaker 1 Today, explain Sean Ramis from here with Nadira Goff, staff writer at Slate. Nadira, Disney's got a new movie coming out this week.
Is everyone enchanted?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 I think that there is a lot of confusion and a lot of controversy around Snow White.

Speaker 5 Magic mirror on the wall.

Speaker 6 Who is the fairest of them all?

Speaker 2 But yeah, it's safe to say that not everyone is enchanted.

Speaker 4 This was my father's kingdom,

Speaker 4 a place of fairness.

Speaker 4 but the queen

Speaker 7 changed everything.

Speaker 1 Now, I have to ask, as a student of the Brothers Grimm, how many controversies are there?

Speaker 2 Well, you're in luck. You're so lucky.
Today is your lucky day because there happens to be about seven.

Speaker 1 Oh my goodness.

Speaker 4 It's a human. What did you think I was?

Speaker 8 Nothing. Ghost.

Speaker 1 Snow White and the seven controversies coming up on the program today.

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Speaker 3 Hey, hey, everybody! It's today explained.

Speaker 7 Gather round, old and young, because it's time for controversy number one.

Speaker 2 So, I would say that if I'm charting it, the first controversy actually stems from comments made by very popular, very beloved actor Peter Dinkledge, who has a common form of dwarfism.

Speaker 2 And the original Snow White has been criticized for being ableist, specifically for its portrayal of the seven dwarves, and specifically for portraying them as childlike, right?

Speaker 2 And so when this movie was announced, there was a big question mark of what were they going to do about that element.

Speaker 2 And when Peter Dinklage was on Mark Marin's WTF podcast, they got to talking about it.

Speaker 5 You're progressive in one way, and then, but you're still making that fucking backward

Speaker 5 story about seven dwarves living in a cave.

Speaker 5 What the fuck are you doing, man?

Speaker 2 And he called Disney out for hypocrisy, for patting themselves on the back for casting a Latina actress as their quote-unquote fairest princess, right?

Speaker 2 Disney responded very quickly, saying they were taking a different approach, that they were going to talk to the dwarfism community.

Speaker 1 Okay, like they're going to do some like soul searching around

Speaker 1 the portrayal of dwarfs in the

Speaker 2 I mean, it's very unclear because what happened next was an alleged photo from the set leaked, which revealed that the dwarves had seemingly been replaced by actors in a diversity of genders, heights, and ethnicities, only one of whom had dwarfism.

Speaker 2 And so that made headlines. And then in the final product, they seem incredibly reminiscent to the original animated dwarves, just this time CGI animated.
Huh.

Speaker 2 So I don't necessarily know what conversations were had, but it's definitely that element alone has taken its own journey.

Speaker 7 Controversy number two. You're telling me, now I'm telling you.
Tell everyone in cities and towns they've turned snow white into

Speaker 7 snow brown.

Speaker 2 I mean, some people online have probably called her that, considering that

Speaker 2 Anytime these days that there is a remake or an adaptation of popular beloved IP, especially where in which the main character, the titular character, is white, you will always have a contingent of more conservative traditionalists, let's say, who are going to push back against any sort of diverse casting.

Speaker 19 This surprised me because it's Snow White, whose skin was described as white as snow. I don't know what they're going to call Snow White.
Is it still going to be Snow White? Critics.

Speaker 20 This choice represents yet another example of Hollywood prioritizing diversity quotas over staying faithful to the source material.

Speaker 2 And so people were always going to be angry at the idea of Zegler portraying Snow White, Zegler being half Colombian, half Polish. And she did receive some incredibly racist pushback from that online.

Speaker 7 The trolls are mad, the trolls are sad. The trolls think Rachel will be bad.
But it's not just that she's not as white. It's also that she likes a fight.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so outside of the more culture war type of pushback, Rachel Zegler has also upset seemingly everybody on the internet at one point regarding this particular film. She told Extra TV.

Speaker 22 There is a big focus on her love story with a guy who literally stalks her.

Speaker 22 Weird. Weird.

Speaker 22 So we didn't do that this time. She told Entertainment Weekly that the original film was extremely dated when it comes to the ideas of women being in roles of power.

Speaker 2 And also, funnily enough, that she was terrified of the original as a kid. And so she only re-watched the movie for the first time in years in order to prepare for the upcoming adaptation.

Speaker 2 And fans definitely did not love that the star of the remake of one of their childhood favorites was so critical of it that it seemed like maybe she wasn't even a fan of the original movie, so that definitely didn't sit well.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry, I haven't seen this movie in a minute. Is the Prince a stalker?

Speaker 2 I would lean towards perhaps, maybe yes, that Rachel Zeckler might be onto something there.

Speaker 7 And it's not just fights of Rachel's own design. It's also Israel Palestine?

Speaker 2 So The Evil Queen is played by Gal Godot, who very famously has also portrayed Wonder Woman and also very famously is an Israeli actress.

Speaker 2 She has served a mandatory stint in the IDF when she was in her 20s. She's been very vocally pro-Israel.

Speaker 2 I mean, just a couple weeks ago, she was honored at the Anti-Defamation League's annual summit where she gave a speech about fears of anti-Semitism.

Speaker 6 And never did I imagine

Speaker 6 that on the streets of the United States and different cities around the world,

Speaker 6 we would see people not condemning Hamas,

Speaker 6 but celebrating,

Speaker 6 justifying,

Speaker 6 and cheering on a massacre of Jews.

Speaker 2 And if you contrast that with Zegler, who throughout her career has been very vocally political, particularly with how she posts on social media and online, it's safe to say that within that bucket, she has also been very vocally pro-Palestine.

Speaker 2 She's called on social media for a free Palestine and for people to contribute aid relief to Gaza. And so there is a bubbling rumor that there is a feud between the two lead actresses of this movie.

Speaker 7 Moving on to Controversy the Fifth.

Speaker 2 Zegler's very well known for being vocal online. Go vote blue.

Speaker 19 And if you disagree with this sentiment,

Speaker 6 just hit the unfollow button.

Speaker 7 Oops, never mind.

Speaker 2 Especially politically and her politics tend to lean left. And I would say this probably contributes to the film's current controversy.

Speaker 2 She actually posted an impassioned anti-Trump message to her Instagram stories following the 2024 election, in which she not only lambasted Trump, but also his fans, saying, quote, may Trump supporters and Trump voters and Trump himself never know peace, end quote.

Speaker 2 Ouch. That upset everyone who aligns themselves with Trump.
And she later apologized. Zegler apologized, took it down, and she said, quote, I let my emotions get the best of me, end quote.

Speaker 7 Very well then.

Speaker 7 Controversy the fifth, this time for real.

Speaker 7 What is Disney's Snow White Deal?

Speaker 2 So while the first four had more to do with the production of the movie, with rumors of behind-the-scenes drama, with global politics somehow, the final three have more to do with the way that Disney is promoting this movie, the rollout of it, and everything that we sort of see on the current back end leading up to the release of this movie.

Speaker 2 So, I would say that the fifth controversy has to do with the two stars, Rachel Zegler and Gal Godot,

Speaker 2 have not been promoting the movie together as often as someone would expect. They did join forces to present an award at the Oscars just recently.

Speaker 18 I saw that.

Speaker 5 Rachel Zegler and Gal Godot.

Speaker 6 Visual effects push the boundaries of what we see on screen.

Speaker 4 Their work makes the impossible seem possible.

Speaker 2 I mean, they seemed cordial enough, but other than that, they've been on what feels like entirely separate press tours.

Speaker 2 And it's unclear if they're ever going to sort of be seen in the same frame again.

Speaker 2 There were talks of a junket, a press junket, that the cast and crew were going to do, but it was unclear if they were going to do it together. It's also unclear if it's been done.

Speaker 2 I haven't seen any clips from it as of yet.

Speaker 7 But that's not all at the House of Mouse. For those who sit both high and low, you might have trouble on Fandango.

Speaker 2 So I would say the sixth controversy, controversy, the sixth, if you will, is

Speaker 17 that

Speaker 18 and let's.

Speaker 2 I would say that that I would attribute more to sort of the ticket sales, the difference in advanced ticket sales.

Speaker 2 So usually for a Disney property, they would have tickets go on sale in advance for about a month out before the film actually premieres.

Speaker 2 But in this case, they didn't make advanced ticket sales available until less than two weeks before the movie's premiere.

Speaker 2 And in all the reports about this, everyone who's interviewed all the theater owners and the industry professionals basically say that

Speaker 2 the sort of main reason that they can think of for this being the case is that Disney was afraid that people weren't going to be buying tickets.

Speaker 2 And then they would get headlines about how the advanced ticket sales weren't selling out. So everyone seems to think that it's an indicator of Disney being afraid that the movie won't sell.

Speaker 7 And last but not least, a cultural feast, a celebration divine and oh, so hearty.

Speaker 7 But would you believe an afternoon party?

Speaker 2 So, the final controversy, Controversy the 7th, is that where Disney Studios would usually host a bustling, lively, populated premiere, particularly in the States, it's been reported that instead, on March 15th, they held what was a very scaled-back red carpet interviewer employed by Disney only, right?

Speaker 2 Like no outside journalists' presence

Speaker 2 premiere. The assembly of photographers was reported to be much smaller than usual.

Speaker 2 In a statement from Disney to the Hollywood Reporter, they claimed that they were, quote, mounting a more celebratory, family-friendly afternoon event to match the tone and target audience for the film, end quote.

Speaker 2 And I will also say that they sort of did a similar thing in the European leg. Usually for these films, for these big blockbuster movies, they'll have a very big London or UK premiere.

Speaker 2 And instead of doing that, it seems like Snow White only got what outlets are calling a premiere event or special event in Segovia, Spain in front of the original castle that has inspired the famous Disney castle.

Speaker 2 And I think that this is maybe the most damning controversy of them all.

Speaker 2 Because at the end of the day, if you're not promoting your movie, if you're not putting your actresses out there it seems as though there actually might be something going on underneath the surface

Speaker 1 seven controversy i'm guessing at least six more than than disney could have expected but do you think disney has maybe come to the point of second guessing remaking all of their classics or do you think they'll continue down this path are there even any more to make

Speaker 2 i mean probably, but I'm more so thinking live action Princess and the Frog. We haven't gotten, we have, there's still some, there's still a few princesses in the tank.

Speaker 2 I think maybe my answer to your question is I don't think Disney will ever stop. I mean, I think that what they might do is pivot to more external or supplementary stories like Barry Jenkins

Speaker 2 instead of yet another Lion King. So I don't know.
We'll see, but I do think they're going to play in the wheelhouse of their own IP until the end of time.

Speaker 7 Nadira Goth, at slate she doth write. But what would the brothers grim say on this night? Would they celebrate? Would they complain? Let us turn the page on Today Explained.

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Speaker 17 Hi-ho!

Speaker 1 Today, Explain is back. I'm still Sean Ramas from Nandira is gone, but our friend Constance Grady is here.
She's a senior correspondent on the culture team at Vox.

Speaker 1 Constance, you've written about Snow White several times in your career. Of all the Disney princess movies, and there are many, how important is this one?

Speaker 27 Snow White is pretty important. You know, the princess is famous for being the fairest of them all, but I would go so far as to say that the movie is maybe the most important of them all.

Speaker 1 Of any of them? Even Frozen?

Speaker 27 Okay, I love Frozen so much.

Speaker 20 Olaf, you're melting.

Speaker 5 Some people are worth melting for.

Speaker 27 Like, it's a much more fun movie to watch, but Snow White is the first, not only Disney princess movie or Disney animated movie, Snow White is the first full-length animated feature film that anyone ever made.

Speaker 27 So Snow White premieres in 1937. So up until that point, Disney is just making short movies throughout the 1930s.

Speaker 27 They're making those little reels, you know, that play before the feature movie with the newsreel.

Speaker 27 And then they decide they're going to make a feature-length movie, and it's going to be Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. We'll clean the house and surprise them.

Speaker 27 Then maybe they'll let me stay.

Speaker 27 People are convinced this is a terrible idea. Newspapers at the time call it Disney's Folly.

Speaker 27 First of all, animated movies at the time, they're cartoons, right? They're like, Mickey Mouse does like a silly gag.

Speaker 27 It's slapstick, it's mostly animal characters because no one has really figured out a way to animate humans in a way that's fun to watch.

Speaker 27 Like, this is kind of where traditional animation is at this stage. And everyone's like, who would want to sit through like an hour-long movie of that?

Speaker 17 That's a terrible idea.

Speaker 1 But then it comes out and what? It's the bee's knees?

Speaker 27 Audiences immediately love Snow White in this like very, very deep, intense, visceral level. People are bursting into tears in the movie theater.

Speaker 27 Sergei Eisenstein, who's the Soviet director who invented Montage, he calls it the greatest film ever made. It ends up grossing $66 million at the box office.
That's $19.37, much, much more today.

Speaker 27 And at the time, it was the highest-grossing sound picture ever made.

Speaker 1 And what made it such a smashed success? Was it the length?

Speaker 1 Was it groundbreaking animation?

Speaker 27 Yeah, the animation really was groundbreaking in a way that I think is hard for us to understand at this point because this is just what animation has looked like for so long for us.

Speaker 27 But animation before this really was cartoonish and silly and

Speaker 27 sort of vaudeville-y, but Snow White created this really naturalistic, painterly style, which was very, very expensive and labor-intensive to do, right?

Speaker 27 So to make Snow White, Walt Disney is pouring money into his studio.

Speaker 27 He's having his animators study figure drawing and like the play of light in moving images and this tradition of European fairy tale illustrations. He's also building new technology.

Speaker 27 He makes what's called the multi-plane camera, which is this hugely expensive piece of equipment that lets you pull the camera through layers of panels when you're depicting a background.

Speaker 27 So Snow White is not a silly, funny cartoon animal who is stuck on a flat plane.

Speaker 27 She's this really expressive, human-looking character who can sing and dance gracefully, and she's in this really rich dimensional space that looks like an oil painting. It's a totally new effect.

Speaker 1 Amazing. So Disney's innovating the heck out of animation with Snow White, but not...
creating new intellectual property. This is existing fairy tale from the Brothers Grimm.

Speaker 1 How much did they change from the original story with this animated feature in 1937?

Speaker 27 Oh my god, they changed so much about the Brothers Grimm story.

Speaker 27 Disney famously gets rid of all the violence from the Grimm fairy tales in their adaptations. So probably the most famous change they make is

Speaker 27 the way that Disney kills off the evil queen is she accidentally falls off of a really high cliff and it's her own fault and Snow White's hands are completely clean, right?

Speaker 27 In the Grimms story, the way they kill off the evil queen is Snow White and the prince invite her to their wedding and then they make her dance in red hot iron shoes until she burns to death.

Speaker 1 Not okay.

Speaker 27 It's not a thing in most versions of Snow White that she's awakened by True Love's kiss until Disney gets their hands on her.

Speaker 27 So actually the Grimms really change this up a number of times as they're editing the story across all the editions that they make, but in the first version that they collected and wrote down,

Speaker 27 the prince takes Snow White's unconscious body to his castle and he like has his servants...

Speaker 27 Yes, no one, it's not clear what he plans to do with her, but he just like has his servants prop up her body like at the table across from him while he's eating dinner.

Speaker 1 So he is a creep.

Speaker 27 I mean, he's not not a creep.

Speaker 27 And then eventually one of the servants gets really sick of this and he hits Snow White's body, kind of giving her an accidental Heimlick.

Speaker 1 Oh my goodness.

Speaker 27 And the poison apple flies out of her throat and she wakes up and that's the happy end.

Speaker 1 And that brings us to this current feature, which I know you've seen. And I want to ask you how it is generally, but before we get there,

Speaker 1 How much do they change from the original Brothers Grimm source material, perhaps, but but more importantly, to today's conversation from the 1937 feature?

Speaker 27 The main change, I think, from the original movie is that the original movie is designed like an opera. Snow White is this very static, passive character.
She doesn't really have a character arc.

Speaker 27 And that's the kind of storytelling Disney's really stepped away from in the years since then.

Speaker 27 The way they tell stories now tends to be where there's something that the main character wants and they they have to overcome some kind of inner flaw and they grow as a person in order to get it.

Speaker 1 Classic.

Speaker 27 Yeah, that's the classic kind of hero's journey type arc.

Speaker 27 So what that looks like in this new live action Snow White is they reinterpret the idea of Snow White being the fairest of them all as being about justice. So Snow White believes in fair play.

Speaker 27 And her goal that she wants to accomplish is to protect her kingdom from her wicked stepmother, who's an unjust ruler.

Speaker 4 Your Majesty,

Speaker 4 people are struggling, and it may not be much, but when I was young, my parents and I would pick apples. We'd take them and make pies and then go out into the village.

Speaker 27 And in order to do that, she has to overcome her own fear.

Speaker 27 So this is like a very classic quest narrative that gets kind of grafted on top of this weird, allegorical, creepy fairy tale in ways that are a little confusing because they really have very little to do with each other as stories.

Speaker 1 So it sounds like you're saying, Constance, that some of these changes they've made for this new movie are good, and maybe some of them are less good?

Speaker 27 There are some changes that they made to the new movie that

Speaker 27 I think are interesting on paper. It is an, I would say, average to bad movie, I think.

Speaker 17 Oh.

Speaker 27 It is a movie that just, it reads like it was designed by a committee whose big priority is to avoid offending as many people as possible.

Speaker 1 And yet so many people are mad.

Speaker 27 So many people are mad, so they really didn't pull that off. And yet it is still the most boring possible way to make a movie.

Speaker 1 Do you think having spent so much time thinking about and writing about this original 1937 Snow White, which everyone can close their eyes and picture. It lives rent-free in all of our minds.

Speaker 1 Do you think this newer Disney could learn something from that vintage Disney?

Speaker 27 Yeah, I think that the reason that Disney's first version of Snow White is so successful is really that it was something brand new that no one had ever seen before.

Speaker 27 And in the decades since that first movie, Disney's been really, really good at building a brand based on nostalgia.

Speaker 27 And that makes sense because they've been so fundamental to the childhoods of so many people.

Speaker 27 But at the end of the day, that nostalgic legacy was made possible because of this incredible innovation that they did.

Speaker 27 And I would love to see Disney make a new movie that does look like something no one has ever seen before now in 2025.

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